Idea for FIGHTER bonus feats

[Curmudgeon]

The Fighter class has only a single Special ability: Bonus Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm#bonusFeats), chosen from the Fighter Bonus Feat (FBF) list. The idea is a martial class where you get to pick your own class features. But the Fighter has ended up being an underperforming class because feats in general, and FBFs in particular, are quite weak compared to most class features.

One of the problems of building an effective Fighter is that there are many feat chains, requiring the character to use up quite a few of their FBFs to get the benefits of that related set of feats. My proposal is simple: that a single-class Fighter, when selecting any root FBF for their Bonus Feat class feature, acquires the entire associated FBF feat chain (including Epic FBFs) without needing to satisfy any additional feat prerequisites, as long as the feats have no other root dependencies. So Dodge is actually all the FBFs in that chain:

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Bounding Assault
Rapid Blitz
Similarly, Weapon Focus is all of:

Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization

and Two-Weapon Fighting is all of:

Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting [Epic]
Two-Weapon Defense
Improved Two-Weapon Defense
Greater Two-weapon Defense
To use these feats the Fighter still has to satisfy the other requirements, such as BAB of +6 for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

If the character takes a level of any other base class this benefit would be lost (retroactively if necessary).

An increased number of FBFs makes the Fighter stronger. My intent is that the Fighter should be the preeminent martial class, so that the basic statement WotC applied to the class (Player's Handbook, page 37) is actually accurate (rather than laughable).
Characteristics: Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities (hence the name).
Is it too much? Not enough? Please give me your feedback.

Note: I will ignore all arguments which complain that it's too much solely because it makes the Fighter a better fighter than {insert name of other martial class}. Making the Fighter the best fighting class is the goal. Arguments about how it's too much better than all other fighting classes are fine. Similarly, arguments about how it's still not enough to accomplish that goal are welcome. I'm also interested in estimations of how it compares in power to spellcasters and other classes which aren't mainly about the fighting.

[eggynack]

It seems feasible, though perhaps a bit messy. One of the real questions that must be asked here is how many feats you can actually take within this system, given that they're all collapsed together in odd ways, and out of that set, how many of those feats are actually viable. There's the possibility, if one of those numbers is too low, that fighters would end up looking too similar to each other. It also may be worth looking into just what this new FBF list would actually look like, because it's somewhat difficult to tell given their wide breadth.

[Curmudgeon]

I admit there would be complexities. As specified you'd get all of the Dodge chain if you picked that for your FBF, and you'd get several feats which are dependent on Combat Expertise if you picked that feat. But you wouldn't get Whirlwind Attack automatically, because it requires two root feats (both Dodge and Combat Expertise).

Compared to the thousands of D&D feats, FBFs make up less than 10%: a bit over 200. With many Fighters picking the root feats of strong chains that would tend to make many similar builds. But on the other hand, by freeing up more FBF slots we'd allow for more choice of ACFs that are now too "expensive" because they involve sacrificing a FBF and thus delaying completion of one or more feat chain. And, of course, automatically completing many FBF feat chains means the Fighter now has more choice in their non-FBF feats, which promotes character differentiation.

[sleepyphoenixx]

On one hand, Fighters never suffered from a lack of feats. Giving them even more feats to make them stronger is kind of pointless when they already have trouble picking out worthwhile feats.
Fighters already do good enough damage when build with a little thought.

On the other hand it would give fighters a little more versatility in combat since they don't need all their feats to focus on a single combat style.
Instead of being a tripper or a charger they could trip/charge/grapple/etc. depending on the situation.
While that would certainly make them a little more fun to play i doubt it would make them that much stronger. More versatile in their combat role but essentially unchanged out of it.
Which is okay. Fighter damage is sufficient with a little optimization.

It's still a good idea though. I'd leave the bonus feats as they are (maybe reduce them a little) and add the various combat styles as class features, similar to ranger combat styles.
Pick one at first level, a second at fifth, a third at 10th etc. (still keeping your system of getting the whole chain as you meet the requirements).
If you multiclass you get the feats you qualified for as a fighter but have to take the rest with your feat slots (so no dipping for the whole chain).

Now all that's needed is some way to contribute out of combat (preferably without replacing the rogue class) and we might get the fighter to Tier 3.

[Andezzar]

On one hand, Fighters never suffered from a lack of feats. Giving them even more feats to make them stronger is kind of pointless when they already have trouble picking out worthwhile feats. I find that only to be true, if you limit yourself to the PHB.


On the other hand it would give fighters a little more versatility in combat since they don't need all their feats to focus on a single combat style.
Instead of being a tripper or a charger they could trip/charge/grapple/etc. depending on the situation.
While that would certainly make them a little more fun to play i doubt it would make them that much stronger. More versatile in their combat role but essentially unchanged out of it.Versatility is exactly what makes the wizard tier 1 and the fighter tier 5. Unfortunately the FBFs only increase the fighter's combat prowess (somewhat). They do not address the issue that the fighter cannot contribute to many encounters at all, at least not without gear.
It is a start though.


It's still a good idea though. I'd leave the bonus feats as they are (maybe reduce them a little) and add the various combat styles as class features, similar to ranger combat styles.
Pick one at first level, a second at fifth, a third at 10th etc. (still keeping your system of getting the whole chain as you meet the requirements).
If you multiclass you get the feats you qualified for as a fighter but have to take the rest with your feat slots (so no dipping for the whole chain).Not really sure what you are trying to say. The Ranger Combat styles are just bonus feats with different restrictions. If you mean to reduce the number of available feat chains, I don't think the multiclass penalty is necessary. With 1 fighter level you would get one chain, with 5 two etc. Compare that to a (cloistered) cleric dip.

I think this question is rather complicated, because we do not have a clear definition of fighting. Is it only harming others with weapons or your body or does it include any type of conflict with the goal of doing harm to opponents.
With the latter definition it will be near impossible to even get the fighter near tier 1 casters, wit the former you have the problem of deciding whether the fighter needs to be better than characters who "cheat" and augment their fighting abilities with magic/other non-mundane methods. Of course most gishes will have a better combat record than a fighter, but are they truly better at fighting or only better at fighting while aided by magic? Then again a gish who cannot use his spells most likely is worse at fighting than the fighter who never had access to magic.

[Vogonjeltz]

So if I pick dodge and combat expertise, I automatically get elusive attack benefits at 6th level?

This seems like it might be too powerful. I would have to see a fully defined feat dependency tree to be certain, but that's my gut reaction.

*are you saying there would only be 1 Fighter Bonus Feat?? ( Dodge or Power Attack, but not both?)

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd restrict the feat chains to fighter levels. So if you take the Dodge chain at Fighter 1 you get Dodge, at Fighter 2 you get Mobility, at Fighter 3 you get Spring Attack, Bounding Assault at Fighter 4, at Fighter 5 you get Rapid Blitz and the first feat of a second chain,...
If you already took a feat early you get a bonus feat you qualify for.

I don't think the goal here is to bring the Fighter class to T1. Tier 3 is a pretty good sweet spot, bringing the Fighter in line with the ToB classes and generally hitting a level of ability that is widely considered "playable without being gamebreaking".

[Andezzar]

Don't forget to either totally scrap the cross class skill mechanism or at least give the fighter spot and listen as class skills. A fighter who does not see his enemies usually is a dead fighter.

Another option would be to give the fighter a custom feat that makes them class skills an possibly give a small bonus to them.

For another different flavor of fighter make Hide and Move silently class skills, possibly even give the fighter sneak attack. Being good at fighting does not necessarily mean being good at fighting fair.

[docnessuno]

My proposal is simple: that a single-class Fighter, when selecting any root FBF for their Bonus Feat class feature, acquires the entire associated FBF feat chain (including Epic FBFs) without needing to satisfy any additional feat prerequisites, as long as the feats have no other root dependencies.

It' quite a bad idea in my opinion.
The main reason is that it doesn't make the fighter CLASS better, it just makes a fighter DIP much more powerful. If i wanted to play a martial character with that rule in play i would just play a Fighter 2-4 / Warblade 16-18.

[Averis Vol]

It' quite a bad idea in my opinion.
The main reason is that it doesn't make the fighter CLASS better, it just makes a fighter DIP much more powerful. If i wanted to play a martial character with that rule in play i would just play a Fighter 2-4 / Warblade 16-18.

'Cept he specifically called that out as not a possibility.
If the character takes a level of any other base class this benefit would be lost (retroactively if necessary).

Personally, I think if there were more feats that even just opened up more useful routes, like a ranged pin that isn't worthless, or revamped school styles/tactical feats.

This is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm just not sure that FBF's are expansive enough to raise it any reasonable amount.

[TuggyNE]

'Cept he specifically called that out as not a possibility.

I didn't see that before, but that is immensely problematic from a rules perspective, and from a fluff perspective is just bizarre. That seems like a pretty substantial reason to be wary of this idea.

[OldTrees1]

If one wants to use feats to fix fighter, one needs to give them more feats AND give them better feats. This gives them more feats but does not give them better feats. Some higher level fighter feats would need to be made in addition to this fix.

Sidenote: Change it to using Fighter level rather than BAB and remove the multiclassing prohibition.

[T.G. Oskar]

It doesn't amuse me. Basically, you're forcing the Fighter to NEVER multiclass. Ever. Even if you dedicated your life to be a Fighter for 19 levels, if you decide that right at the end you want the stuff of a Rogue (for whatever reason that is), you lose EVERYTHING you had access 19 levels before.

That's ridiculous, period.

However, there IS a saving grace, and it's hidden within the Weapon Focus feat chain: you require having a specific level in Fighter to enable these, and you don't lose those once you have them.

To put as an example, take the Two-Weapon Fighting line. You can take that one straight from 1st level, and you get TWF, as usual. At 6th level of Fighter, you automatically get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, because that'd be the point where you get BAB +6. If you decided to multiclass into Rogue the level before, you don't get it; however, if you then decided to get the 6th level of Fighter afterwards, you still get Imp. TWF. That way, you can be a Fighter 6/Rogue 1 and still get Imp. TWF, but the bulk of your feats are in Fighter. Same for Fighter 11th netting you Greater TWF for free, rather than spending a feat slot on it.

Sure: you could save up a few prerequisite feats if you get enough levels of Fighter, but that makes staying on the class attractive. Just by that (making TWF feat chain progression depend on Fighter levels but not losing them), you make Fighter 6th more attractive. Furthermore, you're suggesting the idea of making Fighter 11th likewise attractive, as you could save one feat slot if you take 11 levels in Fighter for Greater TWF. It also has another benefit: you're getting Greater TWF without the Dexterity 19 requirement, whereas you'd need to have Dexterity 19 to get the feat if you dropped from Fighter at 6th level. Then again, to USE them, you still need Dexterity 19, whereas the Ranger only needs to wear light armor. The Monk, of all people, requires NOTHING to use those. This is really bad: perhaps the Fighter could, at certain levels, ignore certain requirements (including, at 16th level, the requisite of being Epic level, so you get to use Epic feats faster than before, even if it's really a meager boost in most cases). Take this example: at, say, 5th level, you count as if your ability scores were 1 point higher for purposes of qualifying to USE feats. This bonus could increase every 4 Fighter levels, so you'd get to treat your ability scores as 2 points higher by 9th level, 3 points higher by 13th level, 4 points higher by 17th level, and 5 points higher by 21st level. This would make a Dex 15 character be treated as a Dex 20 character by 21st level. Since I assume that you're meaning that you MUST comply with the requirement but not exactly the BASE score (the score you began with, plus any inherent modifiers and level-based boosts), I presume that means a Dex 15 character with a Gloves of Dexterity +4 could use Greater TWF as it'd qualify; with this benefit, a character could qualify with Gloves of Dexterity +2 at 9th level. It'd also make choosing feats a bit more viable and reduces MAD: someone with Int 10, for example, could qualify for Combat Expertise at 13th level and get all the feats bound to it without increasing its actual score, allowing you to focus on the scores that really matter.

Even with that...it doesn't really do much. Sure, you get feat chains as a Ranger get combat styles, and you can get up to 11 feat chains complete if you go Fighter 20th, saving you dozens of feats. However, very few feats are actually surprisingly good, and some even overlap. Example: Blindsight, 5-ft. Radius is a feat that requires Blind-Fight, therefore being part of the Blind-Fight feat chain. It also requires Wisdom 19 and a base attack bonus of +4. With your suggestion, you'd need Wisdom 19 to use it, which probably means having Wis 13 for starters and get a Periapt of Wisdom +6 to enable the effect, while remaining as a Fighter forever; that means you get blindsight up to 5 ft. at around 17th level, if you base on the MIC suggestion for a +6 Item. With my suggestion, you could get a bit earlier (+4 item can be gained pretty reliably by 14th level, and with the +3 gained by 13th level it implies you count as someone with Wis 20 by 14th level, therefore enabling the feat; you can also get the same benefit by getting a Wisdom of 12, saving you 1 point). The surprise comes when, if you ALSO happen to have Combat Focus, you can get this benefit through Combat Awareness (part of the Combat Focus feat, and since you have Blind-Fight, you happen to get it), so you get blindsight at a 5-ft. radius by 12th level with the same Wisdom (regardless of method), and since most battles rarely last for a minute, that means you have effective blindsight every single battle at 12th level. You get this because you have five Combat Form feats by 12th level (the base, Combat Stability, Combat Defense, Combat Vigor and this one), and since at least three of those get enabled at all times, you get full access to their enhanced versions at all times. All you get by raising your Wisdom to 19 by one way or another is making that blindsight active ALL the time. Then again, Blindsight, 5-ft. Radius isn't a Fighter feat, so...

That one I mentioned (and really, all Combat Form feats) are the few feats that the Fighter could really exploit, since they work outside of combat reliably. You still lack ways to bypass most typical defenses, and if the opponent is more than 5 ft. away, you still can't bypass stuff like invisibility or Mirror Image or Blur (you still can't bypass Blink, either). You're still unable to fly, and you still need to focus quite a bit to make Archery useful (at least spend one of your 11 feat chains on Weapon Focus and a good bow, then another for Point Blank Shot, and maybe one or two of your regular feats for ways to increase your ranged damage so that archery can be reliable), so flying opponents will still cause you trouble. Sacrificing 2 whole feat chains for Dungeon Crasher will be difficult, though not truly bad (depending on what feats you get, you could get a lot of power from those specific feat chains). Some feat chains are still traps (the Weapon Focus line, particularly since you didn't add the complete chain such as Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery, Slashing Flurry/Crushing Strike/Driving Attack and Weapon Supremacy). You also have some feats gained at later levels that are orphans and not THAT good (Overwhelming Assault, Defensive Sweep...even Spectral Skirmisher), so those are less desirable choices for your "combat styles".

Perhaps if you also added a few benefits (like the one I mentioned to reduce the impact of required ability scores on the Fighter), like Weapon Aptitude (why the Warblade should be the only one who gets it? The Fighter should have been the first one!), the Fighter could definitely be a force to be reckoned. Sure: it's "supposedly" out of the intended discussion, but make sure to note that, without stuff like Weapon Aptitude, your choice of feat chains will be pretty much permanent, and worse, it involves having the Fighter plan its build beforehand with even GREATER care, unlike the Wizard who can rebuild itself almost every day. A Fighter that can rebuild its fighting style almost every day could easily push it forward, as you're essentially making it change combat styles.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that the prohibition on multiclassing makes this a bit unusable. You can take TWF and you'll get TWD for free, and you'll get ITWF and ITWD once you have +6 BAB from Fighter levels. You take Dodge and you get Mobility for free, and you get Spring Attack once you have +4 BAB from Fighter levels.

Of course this is a bit silly when dipping for something like Point-Blank Shot, which gets you Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Far Shot all at the same time. Maybe make it so you need one additional Fighter level per feat in the chain after taking the first one to retain them. For example, if you take Point-Blank Shot at 1st level, you'll get all three of those feats that require it, but you'll only get to keep them if your next three levels are taken in Fighter.

[Curmudgeon]

It doesn't amuse me. Basically, you're forcing the Fighter to NEVER multiclass.
Whatever gave you that idea?
If the character takes a level of any other base class this benefit would be lost (retroactively if necessary). There are plenty of prestige classes which are suitable for a martial character. But the goal is that the Fighter should be the best base fighting class. At present it's a dipping class, and this is an attempt at making it so much better that you won't have reason to treat it as such.

[Brookshw]

I like the premise but haven't read all the comments. How would you feel about adding a class feature similar to rangers archery/twf, fighter hits second gets the first for free and the rest as they would qualify on top of the bonus feats. Maybe they get to pick a chain at 2 and every 6 after? Kinda more feat/hybrid of your suggestion?

[Kazudo]

I like it. One could also avoid the cross-classing penalty by...I dunno... planning your dips to happen before taking levels on fighter and using good prestiges.

[Urpriest]

If the character takes a level of any other base class this benefit would be lost (retroactively if necessary).

While I like the base concept, I have to agree with T.G. Oskar that this is painfully clunky. The only other class with a mechanic like this is the Erudite, which is almost as poorly written as the Factotum.

I like Oskar's approach of the feats scaling with Fighter levels only, but there's definitely some amount of clunk to be had there too (BAB is kind of straightforward, but what about skill points? Ability scores?).

You could give the Fighter some sort of BAB pool class feature, that only works for FBF qualification. Building something analogous with skill points might even make up a little for the 2+Int skill points if you're still sticking with that.

Also, one thing I'm unclear on: do you get Whirlwind Attack if you have both Dodge and Combat Expertise? Or, because it relies on two feats, do you always have to pick it up with a feat?

[Randomguy]

I did a quick count: There are 13 figher bonus feats that offer access to feat chains. (They are Improved Shield Bash, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, TWF, Point Blank Shot, Combat Expertise, Combat Focus, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mounted Combat, Blind Fight, Power Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike). Some of these offer a lot of feats, some (Like Improved Initiative and Blind fight) offer only a few.

There are also some feats that aren't linked to by any chain, like some of the shield feats and the boomerang feats.

This means that even someone who stayed straight fighter for all 20 levels wouldn't run out of feats to take, which is good.
The system also makes it easier to pull off very feat dependant builds, for example if you wanted to dual wield light crossbows.

I suppose one possible disadvantage is that you run out of feats that fit your character. For example, let's say you want to play an archer (but not a mounted archer). For your fighter bonus feats you take PBS first level, WF second level, then Dodge, Improved Initiative and IUS to kick people that get too close. You are now mostly out of relevant feats to take, and you're only 8th level.
The built in solution to this problem is to go into an archery prestige class, which solves the problem.


One issue that I have with this fix is that while it stops people from getting huge advantages by dipping fighter, it also stops fighters from dipping into other classes. A fighter with IUS as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats might want a level or 2 in Monk to get early access to stunning Fist and to let him get into some Monk prestige classes.

Other than that, it seems like a good fix.

[Andezzar]

The built in solution to this problem is to go into an archery prestige class, which solves the problem. What's wrong with being good at more than one style? Once all archery options are exhausted, the character could start with lock down, charging or whatever.

Also what happens if a character for example takes dodge as his 1st level feat instead of his fighter bonus feat on the first level? Does he still get the whole chain?

[Randomguy]

What's wrong with being good at more than one style? Once all archery options are exhausted, the character could start with lock down, charging or whatever.

Nothing, but some players may want to make specifically an archer, rather than just a generic, good at everything fighter. But yeah, you've got that option.



Also what happens if a character for example takes dodge as his 1st level feat instead of his fighter bonus feat on the first level? Does he still get the whole chain?

No, he wouldn't. The OP specifies that this only applies to feats for their Bonus Feat class feature.

[HaikenEdge]

What happens to a character who multiclasses into fighter? The current reading seems to say that, it's okay to multiclass in, but not multiclass out.

[Thanatosia]

I always thought the problem with Fighters is that the Feat Chains are just not long enough, nor are the feats at the end of the chain powerful enough. There should be some feat chains that are like 8 feats deep, with stupid powerful feats towards the end. Make the ender feats Fighter only like weapon specialization so that non-fighter melee don't feel obligated to save up all their character feats and dump them all towards the goal of getting the super powerful deep end fighter feats. Also, rather then feat chains, have them branch out a bit so feats feel more like an actual class perk rather then just ACFs on a single base class.

Imagine feats that let the Fighter get his Iterative attacks while moving (more flexable then pounce even), leading into feats that let him shrug off save or dies, lower the hit penalty between Iterative attacks, charge harmlessly through walls of force or other BFCs, or leap high enough to hit low flying opponents.

[ahenobarbi]

I think it'd be safer to write a new feats. And be a little less strict about multiclassing. Like

Doge* chain [Fighter]
Requirements: Dex 13, can be taken only as a fighter bonus feat.
You receive benefits of Dodge, Mobility feats.
In addition if you have 4 levels of Fighter you receive benefits of Spring Attack feat.
In addition if you have 12 levels of Fighter you receive benefits of Bounding Assault feat.
In addition if you have 18 levels of Fighter you receive benefits of Rapid Blitz feat.

* Typo unintentional but left because I find it funny

[Curmudgeon]

What happens to a character who multiclasses into fighter?
They get just what's in the rules now. This special benefit (automatic completion of FBF chains) is reserved to characters who have no other base classes than Fighter. The order does not matter; only the presence/absence of other base classes does.

[ahenobarbi]

Oh . And it would make fighter so OP. Chaos Shuffle all those feats you get to feat chain granting wizard spellcasting :smallamused:

[Curmudgeon]

As specified you'd get all of the Dodge chain if you picked that for your FBF, and you'd get several feats which are dependent on Combat Expertise if you picked that feat. But you wouldn't get Whirlwind Attack automatically, because it requires two root feats (both Dodge and Combat Expertise).

Also, one thing I'm unclear on: do you get Whirlwind Attack if you have both Dodge and Combat Expertise? Or, because it relies on two feats, do you always have to pick it up with a feat?
I missed clarifying this one; the answer's in the added bolding. You would need to use the regular mechanism (pay a feat) to get anything which has multiple FBF chain "root" feats.


Oh . And it would make fighter so OP. Chaos Shuffle all those feats you get to feat chain granting wizard spellcasting :smallamused:
What feats are those, that grant so much spellcasting power that a Fighter (with expenditures of 4,900 gp per feat) becomes the best spellcaster in the game?

[Urpriest]

I missed clarifying this one; the answer's in the added bolding. You would need to use the regular mechanism (pay a feat) to get anything which has multiple FBF chain "root" feats.


Ah, yes, I had seen you state that, just wanted to clarify.

I'm not actually sure you need to be that strict about that sort of thing. If you've got all the "root" feats, why not give the feats they contribute to? Or is there a hidden downside I'm missing?

[Piggy Knowles]

I think it'd be safer to write a new feats. And be a little less strict about multiclassing. Like

Doge* chain [Fighter]
Requirements: Dex 13, can be taken only as a fighter bonus feat.
You receive benefits of Dodge, Mobility feats.
In addition if you have 4 levels of Fighter you receive benefits of Spring Attack feat.
In addition if you have 12 levels of Fighter you receive benefits of Bounding Assault feat.
In addition if you have 18 levels of Fighter you receive benefits of Rapid Blitz feat.


so smart

much wow

Yeah, I think this idea has merit, although I'd probably fiddle with it a bit. Maybe create a [Chain] feat category.

The idea is interesting. My favorite way to help out the fighter is still to give it limited access to [Epic] feats early (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273600), but this is enough that fighters can easily pick up a couple of different combat styles, and still have room to prestige class out later, which is nice.

[Andezzar]

No, he wouldn't. The OP specifies that this only applies to feats for their Bonus Feat class feature.So Dodge as a bonus feat =/= Dodge as a regular feat. Sounds needlessly complicated. Making new feats looks more intuitive.

I wonder whether the fighter levels somehow get used up or if the apply to all chains. I.e. can a Fighter 4 advance up to 3 chains (3 bonus feats) or only one until that one is finished.

I'd still like to know what the goal is. The fighter is supposed to have "the best all-around fighting capabilities". But what is included in all-around fighting capabilities? Is it only dealing damage with weapons? Is it dealing damage with weapons to all manner of threats (including flying, ethereal, burrowing etc ones)? or is it irrelevant whether weapons or other stuff (such as spells or SLAs) is used to counter those threats?

[Curmudgeon]

I think it'd be safer to write a new feats. And be a little less strict about multiclassing. Like

Doge* chain [Fighter]
Requirements: Dex 13, can be taken only as a fighter bonus feat.
You receive benefits of Dodge, Mobility feats.
......
In addition if you have 18 levels of Fighter you receive benefits of Rapid Blitz feat.

That's actually much more strict about multiclassing than my proposal. A Fighter/Exotic Weapon Master/Cavalier with BAB of +18 and Dodge would pick up the benefit of Rapid Blitz with my proposal. With the Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (bastard sword), and Mounted Combat chains also, this Fighter can do things like deliver triple bastard sword damage plus stunning during a mounted ride-by. And then hop off their horse to reach a target their mount can't get to, hit it 4 times, and then hop back on the horse — all in the next single round. With the current system you could hardly fit those options into a single level 18 character (minimum of 14 feats required to get there, and that would be about all the character could do). With my proposal the Fighter could accomplish this with a reasonable feat expenditure while still having some more options left.

Prestige classes are designed to add versatility to a character. Changing the base feats to be dependent solely on Fighter levels means that all Fighters would end up pretty much the same character: single-classed with all the powerful feat chains, and nothing much else.

I'd still like to know what the goal is. The fighter is supposed to have "the best all-around fighting capabilities". But what is included in all-around fighting capabilities?
The example is the sort of thing I think "all-around fighting capabilities" ought to be able to include. Fight on foot. Fight mounted. Fight at range. Hit reliably against tough (high AC) opponents, while still dealing enough damage every single round to threaten the lives of the enemies. Don't be dependent on simple maximization tricks which can be easily turned to minimization instead (Power Attack fails if you misjudge AC; charging fails on difficult terrain). Do more than just mete out damage: add other effects (ex.: stunning, fear-inducing) to dominate the battlefield. A Fighter can do these things — with enough feats, and some martial prestige class levels.

[flare'90]

An idea: for fighters only, remove skill and ability score prerequisites from FBF.

In this way, the fighter with this modification can use the feats it gets as soon as he satisfies the BAB prerequisite, without needing ability enhancements, cross-class skills or other things.

[Curmudgeon]

An idea: for fighters only, remove skill and ability score prerequisites from FBF.
That might be too much. Remove ability score requirements and every Fighter player would maximize STR and yet get the benefits of Combat Expertise while being dumb as a bag of hammers. Remove skill rank requirements and you've got another reason for Fighters with low INT. Tactical geniuses (or at least masters of tactical feats) who aren't smart enough to lace their own boots doesn't sit well with me. :smallannoyed:

[JaronK]

Modification on this idea that removes the "no multiclassing" aspect:

At every odd Fighter level other than first level, if you selected a feat earlier as a Fighter bonus feat, you get any one Fighter feat that uses that feat as a prerequisite if you meet all other prerequisites.

Thus, if you took Dodge at level 1, you could get Mobility for free at level 3 and Elusive Target at level 7.

Now you can multiclass just fine.

Of course, at the end of the day all this does is give Fighters even more feats, which isn't really their problem, but it does help.

I'm more of a fan of having feats get better if you have Fighter levels. For example, Dodge gives +1 AC, and an additional +1 AC per two Fighter levels. Now Fighters are REALLY good at stuff they take feats in, and their feats scale with level. Again, that's not enough by itself, but it would help.

JaronK

[flare'90]

That might be too much. Remove ability score requirements and every Fighter player would maximize STR and yet get the benefits of Combat Expertise while being dumb as a bag of hammers. Remove skill rank requirements and you've got another reason for Fighters with low INT. Tactical geniuses (or at least masters of tactical feats) who aren't smart enough to lace their own boots doesn't sit well with me. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, haven't tought about that...
Maybe something like this: A fighter can add his fighter level to his ability scores for the purpose of qualifying for feats.

So ability scores are still important, but the fighter has an easier time qualifying for feats without using enhancement items.

[lord pringle]

This is a great idea that I might steal for a game.:smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

Modification on this idea that removes the "no multiclassing" aspect:

At every odd Fighter level other than first level, if you selected a feat earlier as a Fighter bonus feat, you get any one Fighter feat that uses that feat as a prerequisite if you meet all other prerequisites.

This is vastly more elegant, and, while it does not necessarily solve all problems with the class, is at least a strictly superior solution that does not massively increase paperwork nor risk imbalance even among martial-only classes.

[Curmudgeon]

This is vastly more elegant, and, while it does not necessarily solve all problems with the class, is at least a strictly superior solution that does not massively increase paperwork nor risk imbalance even among martial-only classes.
Well, then it's no good, because that means it fails to meet the objective:
Making the Fighter the best fighting class is the goal.

[TuggyNE]

Well, then it's no good, because that means it fails to meet the objective:

Imbalance as in "there might be no good reason not to take this", not "this has a useful and interesting niche of its own in which it is superior".

If your concept for a class fix specifically requires that it be imbalanced, I categorically reject it; if, however, it merely requires that it has something nice all its own, that's fine, but that's not imbalance.

[ahenobarbi]

so smart

much wow

Yeah, I think this idea has merit, although I'd probably fiddle with it a bit. Maybe create a [Chain] feat category.

The idea is interesting. My favorite way to help out the fighter is still to give it limited access to [Epic] feats early (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273600), but this is enough that fighters can easily pick up a couple of different combat styles, and still have room to prestige class out later, which is nice.

Much appreciate.

Very perceptive.

Such discrete.

I'm not familiar with Epic feats (I never played ECL > 12 because... in-party fighting tends to break campaigns around that level) but sounds good.

Actually those may be combined (feat-chain-as-one-feat is more powerful at low levels and gives extra boost at high levels (may be too much)).


That's actually much more strict about multiclassing than my proposal. A Fighter/Exotic Weapon Master/Cavalier with BAB of +18 and Dodge would pick up the benefit of Rapid Blitz with my proposal.

This isn't single-classed fighter. So (unless I missed something) it wouldn't get benefit of your fix at all. Or did you mean Fighter / PrCs? Even so I don't think dipping (a cleric or barb or rogue or whatever) should remove the benefit of your fix (it might should be limited by number of levels of fighter you have IMO).


Modification on this idea that removes the "no multiclassing" aspect:

At every odd Fighter level other than first level, if you selected a feat earlier as a Fighter bonus feat, you get any one Fighter feat that uses that feat as a prerequisite if you meet all other prerequisites.

Thus, if you took Dodge at level 1, you could get Mobility for free at level 3 and Elusive Target at level 7.

Now you can multiclass just fine.

Neat.

Still it opens up abuse of Chaos Shuffle (magical training + precautios appretience + heighten spell + earth sense + earth spell. Then get extra spell 9 times, opening up 9th level spells.) I don't have WBL table with me ATM but you need about 70 000 gp to get access to 9th level spell (and after that you can but 10th (and higher) level slot for <5000 gp and spells for 450gp). (not as bad as original proposition) (and it shouldn't be concern in most games).

[Just to Browse]

Well, then it's no good, because that means it fails to meet the objective:

Unfortunately, it still fails against half the monster manual and any spellcaster using buffs above level 3. No number of feats is going to fix that.

[JaronK]

Neat.

Still it opens up abuse of Chaos Shuffle (magical training + precautios appretience + heighten spell + earth sense + earth spell. Then get extra spell 9 times, opening up 9th level spells.) I don't have WBL table with me ATM but you need about 70 000 gp to get access to 9th level spell (and after that you can but 10th (and higher) level slot for <5000 gp and spells for 450gp). (not as bad as original proposition) (and it shouldn't be concern in most games).

Then again, since the Chaos Shuffle is itself broken, that's not a big issue... if the only way to break something is to use something already broken, then that's fine.

I mean, you can Chaos Shuffle the Elven Bonus Feats far easier and without the investment.

JaronK

[T.G. Oskar]

Whatever gave you that idea?

Have you ever read the rules on multiclassing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm)? There's a reason why, and even if it sounds a bit odd, it'll make sense.


There are plenty of prestige classes which are suitable for a martial character. But the goal is that the Fighter should be the best base fighting class. At present it's a dipping class, and this is an attempt at making it so much better that you won't have reason to treat it as such.

As you may have noticed on the description of Prestige Classes, they are a new form of multiclassing (at least, at the time 3.0 came out, several years ago). The typical form of multiclassing is...taking levels in a base class. Which is exactly what you're negating. To an extent.

It may seem a bit legalist, but given that your penchant is exactly this, I feel that it takes this somewhat absurd premise to point out one thing: it's just ONE word that changes it, which if removed, basically invalidates Fighter PrCing out.

However, here's a much better counterpart: if you make the Fighter better as a base class than a dip, then the premise of denying a Fighter the ability to multiclass with other base classes becomes pointless. Note at how I worded the premise I suggested, and which the earlier poster did as well: base the progression off Fighter levels, rather than mere BAB or something along those lines. It's perfectly natural, because that's EXACTLY how caster levels work. I'm pretty sure you'll agree that, if you lack the right amount of levels in the spellcasting class, you won't be able to cast spells of a higher level (i.e. a Wizard 6 that takes 1 level of Fighter because it wants to go Eldritch Knight or Spellsword won't cast 4th level spells at character level 7th, because it has 6 levels of Wizard, not 7). Likewise, if you drop from Fighter at early levels by means of another base class, you're losing the exact same benefit, but if you THEN retake levels in Fighter, you merely delayed the progression (just as that Wizard 6/Fighter 1 taking its 8th level in Wizard; it gets 4th level spells but one level later than a pure Wizard). That's what I was basing off.

Now, the main difference, of course, is that there's no class that grants effective Fighter levels other than, say, the Warblade (which has a premise that works somewhat similar). If you're ready to make that change to the Fighter, and your premise is to make PrC just as viable for a Fighter build as it'd be before, then you could extend that benefit to all full BAB PrCs (not base classes, PrCs). That way, they also happen to progress your skills as a Fighter.

Allow me to point another thing: if you're explicitly allowing a Fighter to enter into a Prestige Class, so as long as it qualifies as a Fighter, and it retains that progression; how does that make that any different from now, besides the additional "combat style-ish feat chains"? A Fighter could easily drop at 6th level, get four feat chains and progress them, and get more class features by other means, potentially acquiring even MORE bonus feats (which, arguably, wouldn't gain the benefit from the Fighter feat chain property, but wouldn't be tied to Fighter bonus feats only); you'd merely extend the life of a Fighter for 4 levels, which is the second recommended checkpoint on a Fighter, even if it doesn't take Dungeon Crasher (the third and last is 9th level, but ONLY if you're a Zhentarim Fighter). It's certainly not a dip, sure, but it doesn't make the Fighter likeable after 7th level, particularly if you're making him MAD in order to get enough feat chains to make those matter.

Kinda puzzled that the only thing you answered was the first, tho. I'm pretty sure that the idea of Fighter levels analogous to caster levels is a pretty simple solution that solves many situations at once, and isn't so hard to port as the mechanic is intrinsic to the system.

[Dragonexx]

This idea has already been done before (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Style#The_Failure_of_Feats). Seriously, read Races of War. (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29) It's got good information and fixes to martial characters.

[Curmudgeon]

This idea has already been done before (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Style#The_Failure_of_Feats).
No, this hasn't been done before. Instead of my auto-completion of FBF feat chains for Fighters, the Races of War system has removed the feat chains and changed all the individual feats to scale based on BAB or other attributes. It does nothing to make the Fighter the best fighting class.

[TuggyNE]

No, this hasn't been done before. Instead of my auto-completion of FBF feat chains for Fighters, the Races of War system has removed the feat chains and changed all the individual feats to scale based on BAB or other attributes. It does nothing to make the Fighter the best fighting class.

This is completely tangential, but why do you use red text so much? :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

This is completely tangential, but why do you use red text so much? :smallconfused:
That's the goal statement: the entire reason for the existence of this FBF proposal. The color makes it stand out, and my hope is that such accentuation will encourage a focus on ways to help achieve the goal.

[Andezzar]

The example is the sort of thing I think "all-around fighting capabilities" ought to be able to include. Fight on foot. Fight mounted. Fight at range. Hit reliably against tough (high AC) opponents, while still dealing enough damage every single round to threaten the lives of the enemies. Don't be dependent on simple maximization tricks which can be easily turned to minimization instead (Power Attack fails if you misjudge AC; charging fails on difficult terrain). Do more than just mete out damage: add other effects (ex.: stunning, fear-inducing) to dominate the battlefield. A Fighter can do these things — with enough feats, and some martial prestige class levels.Is it still fighting if those goals are achieved partially or wholly through other means than the force of arms? I.e. should the single class fighter be better at all of these things than a Gish or a Caster? For example a cleric casting a DMM Repeat spell Summon monster probably will to more damage and/or BFC to the opposition than a single fighter, but he is not technically fighting.

[Curmudgeon]

Is it still fighting if those goals are achieved partially or wholly through other means than the force of arms?
No. The way the game categorizes these things, that's something else than fighting. Summoning creatures (who will immediately attack your opponents) is not considered attacking.

I'm not attempting to make the Fighter be the strongest class on any battlefield; that would be a monumentally more difficult endeavor. I'm just trying to figure a way to get it to live up to the basic WotC class statement within the restrictions of what those game terms ("fighting class") mean.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm not familiar with Epic feats (I never played ECL > 12 because... in-party fighting tends to break campaigns around that level) but sounds good.

Many of the epic fighter feats are fun. They really aren't gamebreaking, but they let you do some very cool iconic fighter-y things. Blinding Speed, for instance, lets you act as though hasted five rounds per day. Gamebreaking? Of course not. But it's cool to be able to turn into a blurring, blindingly fast fighter that darts across the battlefield. Distant Shot lets you take a shot at anything within line of sight, without suffering range penalties. Again, not gamebreaking, but if you're one of the best archers in the world, it's a cool thing to do. Same goes for Storm of Throws or Swarm of Arrows, which let you throw/fire on every enemy within thirty feet.

Again, nothing really supernatural about it, and they give the fighter the ability to do something that other classes can't. Some epic feats could also serve to give the fighter goodies that casters got long ago - damage reduction, for example, or fast healing.

This is the class feature I give fighters in games I run:


Legendary Fighter
At level 12 and beyond, instead of a normal fighter feat, you may choose from a limited selection of epic feats. You may choose these feats even if you do not qualify based on level, ability score or skill requirements. However, you must still have any of the relevant pre-requisite feats. You may choose to take a regular fighter feat in place of an epic feat. The allowable epic feats are as follows:

Armor Skin, Blinding Speed, Combat Archery, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Distant Shot, Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Epic Will, Fast Healing, Great Constitution, Great Dexterity, Great Strength, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Manyshot, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Instant Reload, Legendary Climber, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Rider, Legendary Wrestler, Overwhelming Critical, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Spellcasting Harrier, Storm of Throws, Superior Initiative, Swarm of Arrows, Two-Weapon Rend, Uncanny Accuracy


Combine that with the accelerated feat chain shenanigans of Curmudgeon's suggested fix, and you might have something interesting.

[Lans]

I'm more of a fan of having feats get better if you have Fighter levels. For example, Dodge gives +1 AC, and an additional +1 AC per two Fighter levels. Now Fighters are REALLY good at stuff they take feats in, and their feats scale with level. Again, that's not enough by itself, but it would help.

JaronK

Instead of number inflation would you let it autododge as an immediate action 1 a day for every 2 fighter levels or something along that line? I feel yours is number inflationy

[OldTrees1]

Instead of number inflation would you let it autododge as an immediate action 1 a day for every 2 fighter levels or something along that line? I feel yours is number inflationy

This. Feats should give new features rather than merely a bonus to the old features. If a feat is meant to improve an old feature, it should do so by adding a new feature that improves the old feature. Improved Trip -> Knock-down is a good example of well designed feats.

[Anlashok]

Making the Fighter the best fighting class is the goal.

Just out of curiosity. If we do this, what then will the Monk and Barbarian be for? What will they be supposed to do.

[rexx1888]

the problem with your base premise is it still makes fighters the gods of FEATS and nothing else.

theres nothing wrong with feats, except that they arent class features, they are added goodies. Useful in enhancing things, but not actually giving anything particularly new. For instance, a fighter without improved bullrush can still bullrush. Sure, its like hitting yourself with a bag of hammers but that says more about the terrible design of the original maneuvers than the fighter class. It needs class features, and they need to make it better at fighting in different ways and you cant do that by juts giving it feats. It needs to be able to fight, well, and differently to any other martial. Currently it fights like any other martial, but not as well :\

personally im a fan of fighters being able to ignore the problems with bullrush, trip etc(like their improved blah feats, but just inherent to the class as features at low levels) and then giving them enhanced fightey things at higher levels(like giving them the bonuses of being large for grapples etc without actually making them large, or giving them reach on all large weapons or something, note that these things arent feats, and the only feat like things are for early levels where they are still powerful).

you want to fix fighters, give them class features that make them fight well. It shouldnt be hard for this community, we have whole threads about what character need to be competitive at higher levels, fighters need features that add those options. Then their feats will also have more utility as well :)

[Curmudgeon]

Just out of curiosity. If we do this, what then will the Monk and Barbarian be for? What will they be supposed to do.
What's the Monk for now? That's (unfortunately) not going to change. The Barbarian still has their standard tricks: Rage and the ubiquitous Pounce (via Spiritual Lion Totem ACF). The Fighter will just have a more comprehensive repertoire of tricks, making them the best all-around fighting class.

Making the Fighter the best fighting class doesn't change any other class, except in comparison. There will always be people who want to pick a class for reasons other than optimal power. It's just that, with this change, people who now do pick a class on the basis of power will have more cause to consider playing a Fighter.

[OldTrees1]

the problem with your base premise is it still makes fighters the gods of FEATS and nothing else.

theres nothing wrong with feats, except that they arent class features, they are added goodies. Useful in enhancing things, but not actually giving anything particularly new. For instance, a fighter without improved bullrush can still bullrush.

The basic premise is not a problem. The structure is sound, the content is poor.
The criticisms you have for feats are:
1) They are not class features
2) They enhance without adding anything new

The first criticism is hollow by itself. There is nothing inherently different between an effect being gained by a feat vs a class feature vs a racial trait.

The second criticism has more weight but is only applicable to some existing content and not inherent to feats. This assertion requires some evidence so see below.

Let us examine the Knockback feat. It allows 2 things. First it allows you to make a bullrush after a hit. Second it allows you to make a bullrush without moving. Now the first could be considered enhancing or adding something new. However the second is adding something new.

So feats can add new things. Most merely enhance but that is a problem with content not with structure. So the basic premise of making Fighter king of feats is not a problem provided it is combined with creating good content (feats that add abilities and are worth taking as feats).

[TuggyNE]

The Barbarian still has their standard tricks: Rage and the ubiquitous Pounce (via Spiritual Lion Totem ACF).

Since these are almost entirely useful only in combat, and equally well or poorly in combat of essentially any sort, I am a little puzzled as to what niche they possess that is not covered by "all-around fighting", as currently defined. Maybe they're better at melee combat? But having a Fighter that is not best at melee combat would baffle most people.

And, of course, if the explicit purpose is to make the Fighter strictly overshadow the Barbarian in the Barbarian's own area of expertise… well, see previous remarks.

[ericgrau]

Depends how well optimized the group is. In low optimization more than 1 core feat would be overpowered. I mean at level 1 barbarian gets rage which is amazing... but past that 2 levels of barbarian gives you +1 rage per day and +1 to your trap sense, if that. That's not even worth one feat. That's a class you take for only 1 level and then take extra rage from there if needed. Once you bring in more optimization like barbarian ACFs however, things change.

For higher optimization I'd do something a bit simpler. Fighters get 2-3 times as many bonus feats, but some feats cost more than 1 FBF. All PHB feats cost 1 FBF. Even the "fabled" power attack is really only a pre-req for shocktrooper, and by itself adds less damage per round on average than weapon specialization. Most high power feats could cost 2 FBFs, and shocktrooper might cost 3 FBFs. You might also allow the selection of any other feat for 2 FBFs, since the FBF list is a bit limited for high op. Based on your list it sounds like 3 times as many FBFs might be appropriate for your particular group. Other groups may vary. You could give out 2 FBFs on odd levels and 1 on even levels. I wouldn't penalize people for dipping either. Once you can select any feat every level you take, taking more than a couple fighter levels is its own reward.

[JaronK]

Instead of number inflation would you let it autododge as an immediate action 1 a day for every 2 fighter levels or something along that line? I feel yours is number inflationy

I feel like Fighters are good precisely for the people who don't want fancy tricks... they just wanna hit stuff hard. Let the Warblades do the cool maneuvers, let the Barbarians flip out, but let the Fighters be good at just hitting stuff hard in combat.

So yeah, it's number inflationy... but that's what I think the Fighter should have.

With that said, I'd have the weapon style feats do special things for Fighters as they level. For example, Shield and Pike Style might, if you have 2 Fighter levels, work for any piercing pole arm and any shield. Then at Fighter level 4 it might have an ability like "if you hit with your pole arm at the end of a charge, you may immediately move adjacent to the enemy you hit and shield bash them. This movement does not cause attacks of opportunity". Then at level 6 it would add a new ability, and so on. This allows us to make underpowered styles better.

JaronK

[eggynack]

For higher optimization I'd do something a bit simpler. Fighters get 2-3 times as many bonus feats, but some feats cost more than 1 FBF. All PHB feats cost 1 FBF. Even the "fabled" power attack is really only a pre-req for shocktrooper, and by itself adds less damage per round on average than weapon specialization. Most high power feats could cost 2 FBFs, and shocktrooper might cost 3 FBFs. You might also allow the selection of any other feat for 2 FBFs, since the FBF list is a bit limited for high op. Based on your list it sounds like 3 times as many FBFs might be appropriate for your particular group. Other groups may vary. You could give out 2 FBFs on odd levels and 1 on even levels. I wouldn't penalize people for dipping either. Once you can select any feat every level you take, taking more than a couple fighter levels is its own reward.
That sounds a lot like the feat point system (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html). Or, for a version of that without ludicrous pricing, Sonofzeal's feat point system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245177).

[Anlashok]

The Barbarian still has their standard tricks
The barbarian's trick is being a powerhouse in melee combat.


Making the Fighter the best fighting class doesn't change any other class, except in comparison.
Which is the most relevant thing when conceptual overlap occurs between the two classes in question. Similar to how most monk optimization threads start and end with 'play a swordsage'. If the Fighter becomes, as your goal states, the best mundane combatant then yes, the comparison does become a problem.

Monks are admittedly really bad on their own but they were worth mentioning because they're another class that has "fight good" as their only design goal. That they fail to meet it is unfortunate, but irrelevant to the core point.

[AugustNights]

Interesting idea, I like it, but it sounds like a bit of book work, and a lot of things for the fighter to keep track of. I don't think that's really a bad thing though.
Anyhow, I'm building some tables for a visual representation, and I want to make sure, only fighter bonus feats, are gained through this new aspect.

To clarify with example,

A Fighter with Combat Reflexes as their first Fighter Bonus feats would automatically gain Vexing Flanker (and could use it), but would not gain Pursue (as that Pursue is not a [Fighter] feat).

[OldTrees1]

Interesting idea, I like it, but it sounds like a bit of book work, and a lot of things for the fighter to keep track of. I don't think that's really a bad thing though.
Anyhow, I'm building some tables for a visual representation, and I want to make sure, only fighter bonus feats, are gained through this new aspect.

To clarify with example,

A Fighter with Combat Reflexes as their first Fighter Bonus feats would automatically gain Vexing Flanker (and could use it), but would not gain Pursue (as that Pursue is not a [Fighter] feat).

Why limit it to [Fighter] feats rather than combat feats? Honestly the [Fighter] list is unreasonable small.

[Curmudgeon]

A Fighter with Combat Reflexes as their first Fighter Bonus feats would automatically gain Vexing Flanker (and could use it), but would not gain Pursue (as that Pursue is not a [Fighter] feat).
Yes, Combat Reflexes would auto-complete to include all of:

Combat Reflexes
Vexing Flanker
Adaptable Flanker
Robilar's Gambit
Improved Combat Reflexes [Epic]
Backstab (Dragon # 340)
Close-Quarter Defense (Dragon # 309)
Clever Opportunist (Drow of the Underdark)
I think that's the complete list.

Why limit it to [Fighter] feats rather than combat feats? Honestly the [Fighter] list is unreasonable small.
Who gets to decide what is or isn't a "combat" feat? There are plenty of feats which aid battlefield spellcasting, for example. There's no way to keep this remedy for Fighter under-performance tractable without clear limits. So, I'm coloring within the lines of Fighter Bonus Feats — just with a much bigger box of crayons. :smallbiggrin:

[AugustNights]

Clarification requested:

Does Exotic Weapon Proficiency auto-complete Weapon Focus?

[Curmudgeon]

Clarification requested:

Does Exotic Weapon Proficiency auto-complete Weapon Focus?
No, because Exotic Weapon Proficiency isn't a feat prerequisite for Weapon Focus. While Exotic Weapon Proficiency lets you qualify to get into the Weapon Focus feat chain, it's not the start of that chain. Only feat chains auto-complete from the root feat.

[AugustNights]

Not counting Dragon Magazine Material outside of the compendium, and Epic Fighter Bonus Feats outside the srd, it looks like there's roughly 19 feat chains.

In no particular order, with prerequisites (other than parent feats) in parentheses.




Combat Expertise (13 INT)

Improved Disarm (13 INT)
Improved Feint (13 INT)
Surprising Riposte (13 INT)
Improved Trip (13 INT)
Pebble Underfoot (13 INT)
Improved Combat Expertise (+6 BAB, 13 INT)
Riposte (+5 BAB, 13 INT)


Combat Focus (13 WIS)

Combat Stability (+3 BAB, 13 WIS)
Combat Vigor (+9 BAB, 13 WIS)
Combat Strike (+15 BAB, 13 WIS)


Combat Reflexes (-)

Vexing Flanker (-)
Clever Opportunist (-)
Pike Hedge (+2 BAB)
Adaptable Flanker (+4 BAB)
Double Team (+6 BAB)
Robilar's Gambit (+12 BAB)
Improved Combat Reflexes ([Epic] 21 DEX)
Spellcasting Harrier ([Epic])


Dodge (13 DEX)

Mobility (13 DEX)
Spring Attack (+4 BAB, 13 DEX)
Circle Student (+4 BAB, Concentration 2 Ranks)
Circle Master (+8 BAB, Concentration 4 Ranks)


Heavy Armor Optimization (+4 BAB, Prof)

Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (+8 BAB, Prof)


Holy Subdual (-)

Subduing Strike (-)


Improved Critical (+8 BAB, Prof)

Staggering Critical (+12 BAB)


Improved Unarmed Strike (-)

Deflect Arrows (13 DEX)
Snatch Arrows (15)
Stunning Fist (+8 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS)
Fiery Fist (+8 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS)
Ki Blast (+8 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS)
Fiery Ki Defense (+8 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS)
Freezing the Lifeblood (+10 BAB, 17 WIS)
Water Splitting Stone (+9 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS)
Weakening Touch (+2 BAB, 17 WIS)
Paralyzing Fists ([3.0] 15 WIS)
Improved Grapple (13 DEX)
Martial Throw (17 DEX)
Versatile Unarmed Strike (-)
Hammer Fist (13 STR)
Hazing Strike (+2 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS)
Exceptional Deflection ([Epic] 21 DEX, 19 WIS)
Improved Stunning Fist ([Epic] 19 DEX, 19 WIS)
Legendary Wrestler ([Epic], Escape Artist 15)
Reflect Arrows ([Epic] 25 Dex)


Improved Shield Bash (Prof With Shields)

Shield Charge (BAB +3)
Shield Slam (BAB +6)


Improved Intitiative (-)

Dire Charge ([Epic])
Superior Initiative ([Epic])

Mounted Combat (Ride 1 )

Mounted Archery (Ride 1)
Improved Mounted Archery (Ride 1)
Mounted Mobility (Ride 4)
Ride-by-Attack (Ride 1)
Spirited Charge (Ride 1)
Trample (Ride 1)
Cavalry Charger (+6 BAB)
Valenar Trample (Elf, region of origin Valenar)
Tremendous Charge (Ride 1)


Point Blank Shot (-)

Precise Shot (-)
Coordinated Shot (-)
Dead-Eye Shot (+4 BAB, SA/Skirmish?)
Improved Precise Shot (+11 BAB, 19 DEX)
Ranged Disarm (+5 BAB, 15 DEX)
Ranged Sunder (+5 BAB, 15 STR)
Sharp Shooting (+3 BAB)
Defensive Archery (-)
Far Shot (-)
Rapid Shot (13 DEX)
Manyshot (+6 BAB, 17 DEX)
Greater Manyshot (+6 BAB, 17 DEX)
Improved Rapid Shot (-)
Penetrating Shot (+10 BAB, 15 STR)
Woodland Archer (+6 BAB)
Distant Shot ([Epic] Spot 20)
Improved Manyshot ([Epic] +21 BAB, 19 Dex)
Uncanny Accuracy ([Epic] Spot 20)


Power Attack (13 STR)

Cleave (13 STR)
Great Cleave (+4 BAB, 13 STR)
Improved Sunder (13 STR)
Combat Brute (+6 BAB)
Improved Bullrush (13 STR)
Cometary Collision (13 STR)
Pushback (STR 17)
Shock Trooper (+6 BAB)
Flay (13 STR)
Improved Overrun (13 STR)
Resounding Blow (13 STR, Intimidate 7 ranks)
Power Lunge ([3.0] 13 STR)
Brutal Strike (+6 BAB, 13 STR)


Powerful Charge (+1 BAB, Medium+)

Greater Powerful Charge (+4 BAB, Medium+)


Quick Draw (+1 BAB)

Mercurial Strike (+5 BAB)
Hurling Charge (+6 BAB)


Shieldmate (+1 BAB)

Improved Shieldmate (+4 BAB)


Shield Specialization (Prof With Shields)

Active Shield Defense (-)
Shield Ward (-)


Two Weapon Fighting (15 DEX)

Two-Weapon Defense (15 DEX)
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (+6 BAB, 17 Dex)
GreaterTwo-Weapon Fighting (+11 BAB, 19 Dex)
Improved Two-Weapon Defense (+6 BAB, 17 Dex)
GreaterTwo-Weapon Defense (+11 BAB, 19 Dex)
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (13 STR)
Two-Weapon Pounce (+6 BAB, 15 Dex)
Two-Weapon Rend (+11 BAB, 15 Dex)
Dual Strike (-)
Half Strike (-)
Twin Sword Style ([3.0] Raised among the elves of Sura- Khiri)
Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting ([Epic] 25 Dex)


Weapon Focus (-)

Crossbow Sniper (+1 BAB [Crossbow])
Weapon Specialization (Fighter L.4, Prof)
Daring Warrior (Grace +1?)
Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) (+8 BAB, Prof, [Melee])
Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) (+8 BAB, Prof, [Melee])
Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) (+8 BAB, Prof, [Melee])
Slashing Flurry (+18 BAB, Prof, [Slashing])
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) (+8 BAB, Prof, [Ranged ])
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) (+8 BAB, Prof, [Ranged ])
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Slashing) (+8 BAB, Prof, [Ranged ])
Greater Weapon Focus (Fighter L.8, Prof)
Greater Weapon Mastery (Fighter L.12, Prof)
Weapon Supremecy (Fighter L.18, Prof)
Short Haft (+3 BAB, [Reach])
Epic Weapon Focus ([Epic])
Epic Weapon Specialization ([Epic])


Note: Some of the feats are impossible to use, as far as I know (unless perhaps they were used in a gestalt game, or with some ACF I'm unaware of), but under this system the fighter would have them. Specifically, I'm thinking of Dead-Eye Shot and Daring Warrior.

[Jon_Dahl]

It's certainly a great day when Curmudgeon, one of the most sober and coherent of Playgrounders, steps up to defend the Fighter!
http://nwps.ws/pub/forum-gifs/94827.gif

My input:
Fighter Feats should scale with levels in the Fighter class. The scaling should be something small, but exclusive for Fighters. That would make the Fighter Feats special for fighters. It's a bit underwhelming when a Barbarian has as much as use with Improved Critical as a Fighter of the same level.

For example:
Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites

Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

Special

A fighter who selects this feat gains +1 cumulative bonus to hit per every five levels in fighter class.

[TroubleBrewing]

What about when a FBF has a prerequisite that might be covered by mulitple chains, for instance Combat Defense (PHB2)? It needs Dodge and Combat Focus, so if you had both chains, would you nab this one for free as well?

EDIT: I forgot to add that this is an amazing idea. I feel like this might be the first legitimate Fighter "fix" (as in, actually using whats already there instead of adding new class features) to bump them near ToB levels.

EDIT EDIT: ChumpLump, I've got a few more FBF chains to add to your list. I've included the books they came from, just in case you need that info.

Mage Slayer (CA)

Pierce Magical Concealment (CA)

Cold Endurance (Frost)

Improved Cold Endurance (Frost)

Tunnel Fighting (RoS)

Stoneback (RoS)

Heavy Armor Optimization (RoS)

Greater Heavy Armor Optimization

Constant Guardian (DotU)

Dutiful Guardian


To the Dodge tree, add Sahuagin Flip (Storm).
To the Combat Expertise tree, add Curling Wave Strike (Storm).
To the Point Blank Shot tree, add Aquatic Shot (Storm).
To the Improved Unarmed Strike tree, add Pharaoh's Fist (Sand).
To the Power Attack tree, add Knockback (RoS).


That's all I've got for now, but I haven't gone through my Eberron books or Faerun materials yet... :smalleek:

[OldTrees1]

Who gets to decide what is or isn't a "combat" feat? There are plenty of feats which aid battlefield spellcasting, for example. There's no way to keep this remedy for Fighter under-performance tractable without clear limits. So, I'm coloring within the lines of Fighter Bonus Feats — just with a much bigger box of crayons. :smallbiggrin:

You could go by example: This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17139954&postcount=50) is a list created in another fighter fix thread that tried to list all the good feats a Fighter might want. The majority of them are combat/martial feats.

[atomicwaffle]

Fighters fight. Okay...

Give Bluff as a class skill, and give a +2 bonus to Bluff when Feinting.

Also encourages using those bonus feats and an int bonus to get improved feint

[OldTrees1]

Fighters fight. Okay...

Give Bluff as a class skill, and give a +2 bonus to Bluff when Feinting.

Also encourages using those bonus feats and an int bonus to get improved feint

Thug is an alternate Fighter in the srd/unearthed arcana


Class Skills
Add the following skills to the fighter's class skill list: Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand. The thug gains skill points per level equal to 4 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

Class Features
The thug has all the standard fighter class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Thugs are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.

Bonus Feats
A thug doesn't gain the normal fighter bonus feat at 1st level. Also, add Urban Tracking to the list of fighter bonus feats available to the thug.

[Nightraiderx]

I have one objection to your thing. Do not make the feats auto grant, let the person choose what they can qualify for.
If you check out what PF did with ranger's combat style feats, it allowed at certain levels to pick within a certain list. So if you wanted a feat early, or got it through another class, the auto-obtain wouldn't be wasted.

Another thing would be to loosen some of the ability skill requirements, such as giving an effective (+2, increasing at higher fighter levels) to ability scores requiring a feat. That was you can have a fighter do some cool stuff like dual wield weapons without having to loose so much damage to dex requirements.

Also: That fighter feat list is small I would like to create a comprehensive list and suggest some feats that should've been fighter feats.

Another thing would be to do a partial (weapon aptitude) style thing that warblade does and that the weapon focus feat line can apply to more weapons as you increase fighter levels, that way it makes it easier to grab weapon style feats and the like.

Edit: Should try fleshing out some of the shorter feat chains for balance.

[ericgrau]

That sounds a lot like the feat point system (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html). Or, for a version of that without ludicrous pricing, Sonofzeal's feat point system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245177).
The only issue I have with both of those is it's a bit subjective and a nightmare to price all feats. If you only have to pick between 1 and 2 almost all the time, with a defined baseline, it's simpler. Some of matching cost may be worth a little less, but as long as they still get selected sometimes oh well.

[hemming]

Can someone post the full chain that would be unlocked with power attack?

It is a ton of work, but I would like to see some fighter feats (brutal strike for example) get progression with PC level - maybe this idea is too crazy or too homebrew heavy to work out fairly???

I also think the fighter should get some class based improvements to action economy - maybe basing off some common magic items used for action economy improvement and introducing at different levels? Restrictions to the types of actions that can be taken advantage of needed

I feel I am muddying the waters of an otherwise elegant proposal - but that the fighter still needs a little more to be able to shine as "the best fighting class"

[Shining Wrath]

I use Tae Kwon Do as a means to stay in shape, and have thus sparred with people who are actually good at it (which I'm not).

Therefore, I suggest that there be a "Feint" tree.

Normal: Feint is a standard action, therefore useless.
Improved Feint: Feint is a move action. REMOVE: Prerequisite of Combat Expertise
ADD: Greater Improved Feint: Feint is a swift action.
ADD: Masterful Feint: You may feint as a *free* action, once per round.
You may take Masterful Feint more than once; each time you take it, you get one additional free-action feint per round, and you may use the best result.


To support this, add "Bluff" and "Sense Motive" as fighter class skills, and give fighters 4+INT skill points per level. A good fighter ought to be able to fake a normal person right out of their boots. The number of times I've taken a half-step in response to a good fake and gotten kicked solidly as a result ...

EDIT: Idea the second

To be the premier melee class, the Fighter must be equal to the classes given a ranking of "1" in Person Man's Niche rating system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314701): Totemist, and Warblade (also Druid and Psychic Warrior, but those aren't as melee focused). What those classes have, in addition to full BAB and good hit dice, is tricks - maneuvers, or incarnium meldings.

I propose what I'll call Martial Trick feats - things that the Fighter has picked up along the way that are very useful in some circumstances.

Example

Feat Name: Painful Parry
Category: Fighter Bonus
Prerequisite: BAB of 3 or more
Fluff: You are capable of blocking an attack by striking the attacker's limb with your weapon
Benefit: A fighter who is missed by a melee attack may attempt an attack against their attacker at their highest attack bonus. If the counter-attack succeeds, they deal normal weapon damage to the attacker.
Special: This attack does not count against the fighter's attacks of opportunity. However, a fighter may only use Painful Parry once per combat.

[Curmudgeon]

Not counting Dragon Magazine Material outside of the compendium, and Epic Fighter Bonus Feats outside the srd, it looks like there's roughly 19 feat chains.
That's a nice compilation. Dragon content would fatten it out a bit, as noted in the Combat Reflexes list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17199904&postcount=64). I missed 3 on your list, and you're missing 2 that I had.

As for the "impossible" feats, they might work with the right choices of prestige classes, non-Fighter feats, and ACFs. But there's no detriment here other than a smidgen of extra bookkeeping.


As specified you'd get all of the Dodge chain if you picked that for your FBF, and you'd get several feats which are dependent on Combat Expertise if you picked that feat. But you wouldn't get Whirlwind Attack automatically, because it requires two root feats (both Dodge and Combat Expertise).
I already answered this once.

What about when a FBF has a prerequisite that might be covered by mulitple chains, for instance Combat Defense (PHB2)? It needs Dodge and Combat Focus, so if you had both chains, would you nab this one for free as well?
Nope. You're free to use the normal mechanic to pick up any feat you already have qualified for via this FBF chain auto-completion, but its benefit is limited to single-root chains.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Is it too much? Not enough? Please give me your feedback.
IMO, this fix would make the fighter comparable with ToB classes. Are these allowed? If not, then I believe you have achieved your goal. Now the Fighter IS the best fighting base class. Still, a well-built Warblade or Crusader will stand toe-to-toe with this Fighter, and often overpower him. Maneuvers offer some options that simply can't be replicated with feats. It would depend on the encounter, really.

I like the idea, and I wouldn't mind trying it. But, like others, I am a bit put off by blocking multiclassing so... radically. An intermediate solution that delays the extra benefits, instead of completely eliminating them, would be much more suited to my taste. Though of course, that's a matter of preference.

I also think that applying this concept partially to other martial classes would give them a nice boon, without stepping on the Fighter's toes. For example, the Scout's bonus feats could similarly turn into feat chains, but not any chain they like. Point Blank Shot yes, Spring Attack yes, Power Attack no. Basically, we could customize which feat chains are appropriate and flavorful for each class, and hand them out.

Personally, I would happily give that even to Rogues, despite the fact that they don't actually get bonus feats. A rogue that picks TWF gets the entire chain (whenever he meets the prerequisites, as normal), and now that poor feat-starved soul can take cool ambush feats, or whatever he pleases. I realize that this veers off your original concept quite a bit, so I'm not actually suggesting it to you, I'm merely throwing out ideas. :)

Here's a quick list of which core feat chains I find appropriate:

Rogue - Combat Expertise, Dodge, Point Blank Shot, TWF
Scout - Dodge, Point Blank Shot, TWF
Paladin - Endurance, Mounted Combat, Power Attack
Monk - Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike

The Ranger would need special care, because combat style now gets him less than the rest (though waiving prereqs is a big deal), and this should be fixed somehow. And for the Monk, fighting styles will need some reworking. Outside of core there could be more cool options, such as Shield Specialization for the Paladin.

But getting too many of these might "threaten" the Fighter's position, so if that's a big concern, a cap on feat chains might be in order. Or perhaps a cap on how many feats in a chain are actually allowed. For example, I think that the entire Point Blank chain (15 feats pre-epic) should not be available to ANYONE except the Ranger.

Maybe I'd have to look at this on a case-by-case basis. Darn, this just got too complicated. :smalltongue:

[Nightraiderx]

Rage feats for the barbarian, it's only fair. I disagree that the ranger has to have the most feats to be the best archer, it should be comparable yes, but a fight that wholly devotes himself to archery should actually be better than the ranger. the ranger has alot more class features, skill points, two good saves, and spells.

[HeadlessMermaid]

I disagree that the ranger has to have the most feats to be the best archer, it should be comparable yes, but a fight that wholly devotes himself to archery should actually be better than the ranger. the ranger has alot more class features, skill points, two good saves, and spells.
I get what you're saying, but with this fix, there's no such thing as "fighter who wholly devotes himself to archery". There's a fighter who spent a single bonus feat to be better than the Ranger at shooting things (from point blank, from afar, sniping from foliage, etc), and then goes on to become an expert in all other forms of combat: power attack, twf, tripping, grappling, attacks of opportunity, lock-down, you name it. He'll get it eventually. So they're not really comparable.

And yes, I did forget the Barbarian. (And didn't mention any non-core classes other than Scout, either.) It's a neat idea, but it needs a lot of work. While Curmudgeon's fix, since it applies to only one class, has the outstanding virtue of being very simple and straight-forward.

[Stella]

One of the problems of building an effective Fighter is that there are many feat chains, requiring the character to use up quite a few of their FBFs to get the benefits of that related set of feats. My proposal is simple: that a single-class Fighter, when selecting any root FBF for their Bonus Feat class feature, acquires the entire associated FBF feat chain (including Epic FBFs) without needing to satisfy any additional feat prerequisites, as long as the feats have no other root dependencies.I made a similar suggestion in my thread [3.5] Class Balance Attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335265).

For the Fighter, the changes were:
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
At each level past 2nd, the Fighter gains an additional Bonus feat. Where the Fighter already gains a Bonus feat, he gains two instead.
Fighters earn 2 feats on each 3rd level, instead of one.
+1 to 2 stats of players choice.

This does a lot of what your system does, if a bit slower. The Fighter still needs to select individual Feats, but she gets them much faster and will be able to have more Feat chains at a much lower level, and especially will not have to begin a second feat chain after they are of a level where the advantage of the Feats they are taking are fairly minimal.

It also has the benefit of having no issues at all with multi-classing. The common "2 level dip" into Fighter remains a decent option for people looking to make a particular build which benefits from the 2 bonus Feats, and for people who choose to stick with Fighter a bit longer they start picking up many more bonus Feats, even if it's not whole Feat chains as in your system.

A 5th level Human Fighter would have 10 Feats in my system, an increase of 4, and this difference in Feat count only increases as the character continues to take levels in Fighter.

[Nightraiderx]

I get what you're saying, but with this fix, there's no such thing as "fighter who wholly devotes himself to archery". There's a fighter who spent a single bonus feat to be better than the Ranger at shooting things (from point blank, from afar, sniping from foliage, etc), and then goes on to become an expert in all other forms of combat: power attack, twf, tripping, grappling, attacks of opportunity, lock-down, you name it. He'll get it eventually. So they're not really comparable.

And yes, I did forget the Barbarian. (And didn't mention any non-core classes other than Scout, either.) It's a neat idea, but it needs a lot of work. While Curmudgeon's fix, since it applies to only one class, has the outstanding virtue of being very simple and straight-forward.

I don't agree with the premise that the fighter should get the entire line of feats automatically as he levels. It causes problems for feats that have multiple feat requirements- combat form and dodge are both needed to take combat dodge. What should be allowed is that the fight gets extra feats along that line as he aquires other feats that have the prequisite locked in.
So for a two weapon fighter at lvl 6. 1st level he takes TWF. 2nd level he can choose a different feat chain, but when he gets his second level feat he can choose 1 extra feat that he qualifies for along the twf tree (two weapon defense as an example). So lets say he takes Dodge.
At 4th he can choose to grab two extra feats for free that have twf or dodge as prequisites, and pick a different feat, such as power attack.
at 6th level now he can pick three feats that have dodge, power attack or twf as prequisite feats, but can only choose one for each earlier feat. and since he gains them at the same time, lets say he chooses shocktrooper. Shocktrooper doesn't have anything after it so it wouldn't add to the extra floating feat pool for his later levels. At level 8, the Fighter would still only be able to grab three feats that have power attack, dodge, and twf. This would allow the fighter to customize himself but not just become the same archer as the other fighter if he takes a single feat.

Granting the entire chain for each beginner feat would limit the variety of the fighter by giving him a ridiculous feat boon. It's not a perfect alternate but what the OP's suggesting would grant even more feats than the cascading idea I'm tweaking with.

[OldTrees1]

I use Tae Kwon Do as a means to stay in shape, and have thus sparred with people who are actually good at it (which I'm not).

Therefore, I suggest that there be a "Feint" tree.

Normal: Feint is a standard action, therefore useless.
Improved Feint: Feint is a move action. REMOVE: Prerequisite of Combat Expertise
ADD: Greater Improved Feint: Feint is a swift action.
ADD: Masterful Feint: You may feint as a *free* action, once per round.
You may take Masterful Feint more than once; each time you take it, you get one additional free-action feint per round, and you may use the best result.



New content! This is crucial to any viable fighter fix.
I assume you can use Masterful Feint x1 and Greater Feint to get 2 feints and a Full Attack.

[Shining Wrath]

New content! This is crucial to any viable fighter fix.
I assume you can use Masterful Feint x1 and Greater Feint to get 2 feints and a Full Attack.

Two feints (as I imagined it) was Masterful x 2, but I see now that RAW by me would allow use of the swift and the free. And that makes sense. If you're willing to burn your move action, get three by adding in Improved Feint.

As I said, a good fighter ought to be able to fake a person not skilled in melee right out of their boots.

I might even consider throwing in a feat where a fighter can use Dexterity to Bluff (in combat only) rather than Charisma. Hard to plausibly move Sense Motive away from Wisdom, though, even though a skilled fighter ought to also be hard to Bluff.

[Andezzar]

Being able to feint multiple times in combat is nice but without sneak attack this only has a very minor benefit (no DEX to AC). The other problem is that feinter always is at a disadvantage because the defender can add his BAB to his sense motive check. Maybe do something about that.

[Shining Wrath]

Being able to feint multiple times in combat is nice but without sneak attack this only has a very minor benefit (no DEX to AC). The other problem is that feinter always is at a disadvantage because the defender can add his BAB to his sense motive check. Maybe do something about that.

I can think of lots of foes where being able to use their flat-footed AC would be helpful. And if you can power attack, and you know you've got them flat-footed, and the Dex bonus is a big part of their defense - yeah. Full round with max PA on AC 10 or AC 12? That ought to leave a mark.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Being able to feint multiple times in combat is nice but without sneak attack this only has a very minor benefit (no DEX to AC). The other problem is that feinter always is at a disadvantage because the defender can add his BAB to his sense motive check. Maybe do something about that.
I personally use this fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228636). It's not too powerful, it makes feinting a tactical option rather than a no-brainer, but with the right (roguish) build, it works fine. Basically, I've eliminated BAB from the opposed roll, and made Feint an attack action (like grapple or disarm).

[Andezzar]

I can think of lots of foes where being able to use their flat-footed AC would be helpful. And if you can power attack, and you know you've got them flat-footed, and the Dex bonus is a big part of their defense - yeah. Full round with max PA on AC 10 or AC 12? That ought to leave a mark.Many dangerous creatures have DEX 10-12, dragons for example.

[Shining Wrath]

Many dangerous creatures have DEX 10-12, dragons for example.

Iron Golems, the Tarrasque, and so on. Lots of big beefy boys with no Dex to speak of.

If you want a "WIN" button for every monster in the book I don't have one. Other than Wish.

There's monsters with significant Dex bonuses out there, though. Pit Fiend gets +8 from Dex. Dread Wraith gets +9. Vampire gets +2 above and beyond the base creature.

[Andezzar]

It is pretty situational for the fighter. Someone with an ability that activates on lost DEX to AC though gets a significantly higher benefit from feinting and this benefit is independent from the actual reduction in AC.

[Shining Wrath]

It is pretty situational for the fighter. Someone with an ability that activates on lost DEX to AC though gets a significantly higher benefit from feinting and this benefit is independent from the actual reduction in AC.

Perhaps we need a feat tree where Fighters gain sneak attack (which we can rename and refluff). Shouldn't the master of weapons and melee know better than some damned rogue how to strike where it hurts?

Who would you think had a better chance of one-shotting you - a black belt, or a street gang member (given similar weapons)?

[Person_Man]

You may wish to take a look at my homebrew Knight Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16056437). It's built with this philosophy in mind.

[Andezzar]

I agree, I think I already suggested sneak attack as an option for the bonus feats.

[AugustNights]

I have intentions of updating the feats list when I get a bit more time, currently don't have that time.

I do have time, however, to question to recurring statement that Warblades would have better fighting capabilities than a Fighter with this set up...
A L.1 Fighter with Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Mounted Combat, or Improved Unarmed Attack would have many viable combat actions available to them, where as a L.4 Fighter with 3 of those feats, plus feats of their own would have *many* options at their disposal.
I imagine a TWF & Archery Fighter type would be rather popular, as would an Improved Unarmed Fighter.

I'd like to see them side by side for comparison.

[ben-zayb]

Who gets to decide what is or isn't a "combat" feat? There are plenty of feats which aid battlefield spellcasting, for example. There's no way to keep this remedy for Fighter under-performance tractable without clear limits. So, I'm coloring within the lines of Fighter Bonus Feats — just with a much bigger box of crayons. :smallbiggrin:I might've missed something, but what about [Tactical] and Weapon [Style] feats? Most of these feats are mundane in nature, so it could probably be considered. (Or do they already count as FBFs and I'm just not aware of that?)

As for specific feat chains, what if I took Martial Study? Technically, all instances of the Martial Stance feat related to the former's discipline is fair game.

May I also ask what this entails for the Martial Rogue variant? Obviously, a rogue chassis with these FBF rehash would be situationally better than a fighter chassis, but I think they will benefit more from this than the fighter, which may be a bad thing based on your goal.

As for multiclassing, one of the roadblocks to a good Fighter->PrC progression is the cross-class skill ranks/points limit (even basic ones like Spot, really), which causes me to dip other classes. Fixing this would lessen the chances of dipping, if you're really set on this no-other-base-class approach.

[Curmudgeon]

I might've missed something, but what about [Tactical] and Weapon [Style] feats? Most of these feats are mundane in nature, so it could probably be considered. (Or do they already count as FBFs and I'm just not aware of that?)
Some are in both Tactical and Fighter categories; some aren't. Most Weapon Style feats aren't also Fighter feats.

[The Insanity]

Needs more good feats/feat chains and less needless complexity.

[HeadlessMermaid]

I have intentions of updating the feats list when I get a bit more time, currently don't have that time.
That would be great, thanks for taking the time to compile these. :smallsmile:


I imagine a TWF & Archery Fighter type would be rather popular
I'm not too sure about that. You have the feats, obviously, but do you have the WBL for three weapons? Archers need a lot of gold to cover the basics. Energy bow, force property, splitting property, these are pretty expensive. And since all you can do is deal damage and make special attacks (and maybe fear effects, if go for it), you need your WBL to cover your defenses, your movement modes, your perception, etc.

So unless you give all that up, and expect the party casters to act as thorough buffers at all times, I'm guessing you'll invest on one good weapon, two tops. It's great to have the feats for taking full advantage of a 2-handed weapon AND two-weapon-fighting AND sword and board AND a bow AND unarmed combat AND a reach weapon... but you can't afford to carry decent versions of all these. They can only be backup weapons, masterwork at best for most of your career.


I do have time, however, to question to recurring statement that Warblades would have better fighting capabilities than a Fighter with this set up. [...] I'd like to see them side by side for comparison.

The Improved Fighter is spectacular, I'm not denying that. He can specialize perfectly in many things at the same time. You can have a lock-down build (preferably with Martial Study and Martial Stance for Thicket of Blades...), plus an AoO fiend, plus a shock trooper, plus a mean tripper, plus a mean grappler, plus an archer just in case. But as a martial adept, you can do stuff that you couldn't pull off with all the fighter bonus feats ever printed.

You can gain fire resistance, self-heal, boost a save, reroll a save, boost your AC, iron heart surge (that's a verb), ignore death from hp damage, gain immunity to crits, counter an attack or a charge in many ways.

You can ignore difficult terrain, fly for a round, move or take a move action as a swift action, move your foe around the battlefield, teleport, take free 5-ft steps, become incorporeal, mess with initiative order, give free actions to your allies.

You can gain concealment, turn invisible, gain scent or blindsense.

You can deal elemental damage, block or ignore AoOs, boost allies, overcome DR/hardness, strike as a touch attack, deal area damage, deal ability damage, make an enemy flat-footed, gain or add to reach, reduce foe's speed, paralyze, daze, stun, immobilize.

Now, to be fair, no single class martial adept can do all of the above, much less at the same time. Additionally, there are caveats. For example, many maneuvers that impose conditions aren't as hot as they seem at first glance, because their DCs don't scale that good, and aren't always based on your highest stat. With strikes, you usually give up your iterative attacks. Elemental damage is fire damage, which becomes very unreliable at higher levels. Stone Dragon has the ridiculous limitation of touching the ground. Archers get the finger, again. And many more little things. Not to mention that a lot of these effects can be replicated (and better) by magic items, or buffs from your friendly caster.

Still, that's A LOT of versatility. Messing with action economy and initiative is a huge deal. Repositioning people (including yourself) on the battlefield can, situationally, be an amazing tactical advantage. Protecting yourself from low saves is just invaluable.

Let me put it this way. If a party were to have two front-liners, a martial adept and an improved fighter would make an awesome couple, a force to reckon with. Two of a kind, less so. As to who is better, eh, I still believe it depends on the encounter.

[Nightraiderx]

You can have a two-handed weapon with a buckler, then you can make the penalty disappear, and then you can grab an aptitude light shield so you can shield bash and twf while you have a reach weapon. (kusarigama so you can attack close and far) then you can throw the shield (or your 2-h reach weapon) for ranged options while making off hand unarmed strikes using snapkick.

[Curmudgeon]

Let me put it this way. If a party were to have two front-liners, a martial adept and an improved fighter would make an awesome couple, a force to reckon with. Two of a kind, less so. As to who is better, eh, I still believe it depends on the encounter.
I can live with the Fighter being tied for best all-around fighting class.

[Curmudgeon]

If I'd been thinking ahead I would have reserved a spot for this list at the beginning of the thread. Anyway, I've consolidated the information (many thanks to ChumpLump and TroubleBrewing), fixed some errors, added sources, and sorted in order of likely qualification. I've yet to go through for completeness, though; I'm sure there are still a bunch of Fighter feats in Dragon issues to add, but I wanted to get this out prior to the Forum closure. Current total is 22 Fighter feat chains auto-completing with 157 feats.

Cold Endurance (+2 Fortitude) (Frostburn)

Improved Cold Endurance (+6 Fortitude) (Frostburn)


Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) (13 INT)

Improved Disarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedDisarm) (13 INT)
Improved Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFeint) (13 INT)
Improved Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTrip) (13 INT)
Curling Wave Strike (13 DEX) (Stormwrack)
Pebble Underfoot (13 INT) (Dragon Compendium)
Surprising Riposte (13 INT) (Drow of the Underdark)
Riposte (+5 BAB, 13 INT) (Dragon Compendium)
Improved Combat Expertise (+6 BAB, 13 INT) (Complete Warrior)


Combat Focus (13 WIS) (Player's Handbook II)

Combat Stability (+3 BAB, 13 WIS) (Player's Handbook II)
Combat Vigor (+9 BAB, 13 WIS) (Player's Handbook II)
Combat Strike (+15 BAB, 13 WIS) (Player's Handbook II)


Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes) (-)

Backstab (-) (Dragon # 340)
Clever Opportunist (-) (Drow of the Underdark)
Close-Quarter Defense (-) (Dragon # 309)
Vexing Flanker (-) (Player's Handbook II)
Pike Hedge (+2 BAB) (Dragon Compendium)
Adaptable Flanker (+4 BAB) (Player's Handbook II)
Double Team (+6 BAB) (Dragon Compendium)
Robilar's Gambit (+12 BAB) (Player's Handbook II)
Spellcasting Harrier [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellcastingHarrier) (-)
Improved Combat Reflexes [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedCombatReflexes) (21 DEX)


Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#dodge) (13 DEX)

Mobility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#mobility) (13 DEX)
Sahuagin Flip (Swim, 13 DEX) (Stormwrack)
Circle Student (+4 BAB, Concentration 2 Ranks) (Dragon Compendium)
Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) (+4 BAB, 13 DEX)
Circle Master (+8 BAB, Concentration 4 Ranks) (Dragon Compendium)
Bounding Assault (+12 BAB, 13 DEX) (Player's Handbook II)
Rapid Blitz (+18 BAB, 13 DEX) (Player's Handbook II)


Heavy Armor Optimization (+4 BAB, Prof) (Races of Stone)

Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (+8 BAB, Prof) (Races of Stone)


Improved Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical) (+8 BAB, Prof)

Staggering Critical (+12 BAB) (Drow of the Underdark)


Improved Intitiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedInitiative) (-)

Dire Charge [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#direCharge)
Superior Initiative [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#superiorInitiative)


Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike) (-)

Versatile Unarmed Strike (-) (Player's Handbook II)
Hammer Fist (13 STR) (Dragon Compendium)
Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) (13 DEX)
Improved Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedGrapple) (13 DEX)
Pharaoh's Fist (15 STR) (Sandstorm)
Snatch Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#snatchArrows) (15 DEX)
Paralyzing Fists (15 WIS) (Drow of the Underdark)
Martial Throw (17 DEX) (Miniatures Handbook)
Hazing Strike (+2 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS) (Secrets of Sarlona)
Weakening Touch (+2 BAB, 17 WIS) (Complete Warrior)
Stunning Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stunningFist) (+8 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS)
Fiery Fist (+8 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS) (Player's Handbook II)
Ki Blast (+8 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS) (Player's Handbook II)
Fiery Ki Defense (+8 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS) (Player's Handbook II)
Water Splitting Stone (+9 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 WIS) (Player's Handbook II)
Freezing the Lifeblood (+10 BAB, 17 WIS) (Complete Warrior)
Improved Stunning Fist [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedStunningFist) (19 DEX, 19 WIS)
Exceptional Deflection [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) (21 DEX, 19 WIS)
Legendary Wrestler [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryWrestler) (21 STR, 21 DEX, Escape Artist 15)
Reflect Arrows [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#reflectArrows) (25 DEX)


Mage Slayer (Spellcraft 2, +3 BAB) (Complete Arcane)

Pierce Magical Concealment (13 CON) (Complete Arcane)


Mounted Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#mountedCombat) (Ride 1)

Valenar Trample (Elf, region of origin Valenar) (Player's Guide to Eberron)
Mounted Archery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#mountedArchery) (Ride 1)
Improved Mounted Archery (Ride 1) (Complete Warrior)
Ride-by-Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rideByAttack) (Ride 1)
Spirited Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spiritedCharge) (Ride 1)
Trample (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#trample) (Ride 1)
Tremendous Charge (Ride 1) (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)
Mounted Mobility (Ride 4) (Heroes of Battle)
Cavalry Charger (+6 BAB) (Complete Warrior)


Point Blank Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#pointBlankShot) (-)

Aquatic Shot (-) (Stormwrack)
Coordinated Shot (-) (Heroes of Battle)
Defensive Archery (-) (Races of the Wild)
Far Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#farShot) (-)
Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#preciseShot) (-)
Rapid Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rapidShot) (13 DEX)
Sharp-Shooting (+3 BAB) (Complete Warrior)
Deadeye Shot (+4 BAB, SA/Skirmish) (Player's Handbook II)
Ranged Disarm (+5 BAB, 15 DEX) (Complete Warrior)
Ranged Sunder (+5 BAB, 15 STR) (Complete Warrior)
Woodland Archer (+6 BAB) (Races of the Wild)
Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot) (+6 BAB, 17 DEX)
Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) (+6 BAB, 17 DEX)
Improved Rapid Shot (-) (Complete Warrior)
Penetrating Shot (+10 BAB, 15 STR) (Player's Handbook II)
Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot) (+11 BAB, 19 DEX)
Uncanny Accuracy [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#uncannyAccuracy) (21 DEX, Spot 20)
Distant Shot [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) (+11 BAB, 21 DEX, Spot 20)
Improved Manyshot [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManyshot) (+21 BAB, 19 DEX)


Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack) (13 STR)

Knockback (Large+/Goliath) (Races of Stone)
Cleave (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#cleave) (13 STR)
Flay (13 STR) (Player's Handbook II)
Improved Bull Rush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedBullRush) (13 STR)
Cometary Collision (13 STR) (Player's Handbook II)
Improved Overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedOverrun) (13 STR)
Improved Sunder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedSunder) (13 STR)
Power Lunge (13 STR) (Ghostwalk)
Resounding Blow (13 STR, Intimidate 7) (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Pushback (17 STR) (Miniatures Handbook)
Great Cleave (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greatCleave) (+4 BAB, 13 STR)
Combat Brute (+6 BAB) (Complete Warrior)
Shock Trooper (+6 BAB) (Complete Warrior)
Brutal Strike (+6 BAB, 13 STR) (Player's Handbook II)


Powerful Charge (+1 BAB, Medium+) (Eberron Campaign Setting)

Greater Powerful Charge (+4 BAB, Medium+) (Eberron Campaign Setting)


Quick Draw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw) (+1 BAB)

Hurling Charge (+6 BAB) (Miniatures Handbook)


Shieldmate (+1 BAB) (Miniatures Handbook)

Improved Shieldmate (+4 BAB) (Miniatures Handbook)


Shield Proficiency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shieldProficiency)

Improved Shield Bash (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedShieldBash)
Tower Shield Proficiency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#towerShieldProficiency)
Shield Charge (+3 BAB) (Complete Warrior)
Shield Slam (+6 BAB) (Complete Warrior)


Shield Specialization (Prof) (Player's Handbook II)

Active Shield Defense (-) (Player's Handbook II)
Shield Ward (-) (Player's Handbook II)


Subduing Strike (Exalted) (Book of Exalted Deeds)

Holy Subdual (Exalted) (Book of Exalted Deeds)


Tunnel Fighting (Races of Stone)

Stoneback (Races of Stone)


Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting) (15 DEX)

Dual Strike (-) (Complete Adventurer)
Haft Strike (-) (Dragon Compendium)
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (13 STR) (Complete Adventurer)
Two-Weapon Defense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponDefense) (15 DEX)
Two-Weapon Pounce (+6 BAB, 15 DEX) (Player's Handbook II)
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTwoWeaponFighting) (+6 BAB, 17 DEX)
Improved Two-Weapon Defense (+6 BAB, 17 DEX) (Complete Warrior)
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterTwoWeaponFighting) (+11 BAB, 19 DEX)
Greater Two-Weapon Defense (+11 BAB, 19 DEX) (Complete Warrior)
Two-Weapon Rend (+11 BAB, 15 DEX) (Player's Handbook II)
Twin Sword Style (1st level, Regional, Elf/Half-Elf/Human, Prof martial) (Player's Guide to Faerûn)
Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting) (25 DEX)


Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFocus) (-)

Daring Warrior (Grace +1) (Complete Scoundrel)
Crossbow Sniper (+1 BAB, Prof Crossbow) (Player's Handbook II)
Short Haft (+3 BAB, Prof Reach) (Player's Handbook II)
Weapon Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponSpecialization) (Fighter 4, Prof)
Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) (+8 BAB, Prof) (Player's Handbook II)
Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) (+8 BAB, Prof) (Player's Handbook II)
Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) (+8 BAB, Prof) (Player's Handbook II)
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) (+8 BAB, Prof) (Player's Handbook II)
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) (+8 BAB, Prof) (Player's Handbook II)
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Slashing) (+8 BAB, Prof) (Player's Handbook II)
Greater Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterWeaponFocus) (Fighter 8, Prof)
Greater Weapon Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterWeaponSpecialization) (Fighter 12, Prof)
Slashing Flurry (+14 BAB, Prof Slashing) (Player's Handbook II)
Weapon Supremecy (Fighter 18, Prof) (Player's Handbook II)
Epic Weapon Focus [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicWeaponFocus)
Epic Weapon Specialization [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicWeaponSpecialization)

[AugustNights]

I have been compiling as well... I'll just post the new stuff...


Bonded (Handle Animal 5 ranks, trained pet) (Dragon #357)

Double Team (Animal) (Handle Animal 8 Ranks, trained pet)[/b] (Dragon #357)


Armor Dance (+1 BAB, Perform (dance) 1 rank) (Dragon #315)

Improved Armor Dance (+2 BAB, Perform (dance) 2 ranks) (Dragon #315)


Combat Expertise (13 INT)

Sweeping Trip (-)
Double Weapon Disarm (13 INT)
Curling Wave Strike (13 DEX)
Canny Opportunist (13 DEX, 13 INT)
Exploit Adjustment (13 DEX, 13 INT)
Dedicated Nuisance (+4 BAB, 13 INT)
Defensive Opportunist (13 INT, Tumble 5 ranks)


Combat Reflexes (-)

Improved Combat Reflexes* (+6 BAB, 13 DEX) (Dragon #340)
Greater Combat Reflexes (+11 BAB, 15 DEX) (Dragon #340)


Dodge (13 DEX)

Nimble Deflections (13 DEX, Perform (keyboard) 7 ranks)
Titan Fighting (Racial dodge bonus to AC vs Giant type)


Improved Shield Bash (Prof With Shields)

Shield Snare (Prof)
Shield Charge (BAB +3)
Shield Slam (BAB +6)


Improved Unarmed Strike (-)

Fear no Binds (Escape Artist 6 ranks)
Fist of the Heavens (15 WIS, Sanctify Ki Strike feat)
Disrupting Strike (Shifter)
Beast Strike (+5 BAB, Claw or Slam attack)
Paralyzing Fists ([3.0] 15 WIS)


Mounted Combat (Ride 1 )

Mounted Fighting (+8 BAB, Ride 11 ranks)


Point Blank Shot (-)

Bow Feint (13 INT)
Ranged Pin (+5 BAB, 15 STR)


Power Attack (13 STR)

Quick Cleave (13 DEX)
Terrifying Warrior (+3 BAB, 13 STR)
Find Flaw (+6 BAB, STR 13)
Deafening Blow (+4 BAB, 13 STR?)
Blinding Strike (+5 BAB, 13 DEX, 13 STR?)
Deadly Concussion (13 STR, Perform (percusion) 6 ranks)
Combat Engineer (13 STR, 13 INT, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 4 ranks)


Quick Draw (+1 BAB)

Mercurial Strike (+5 BAB)


Weapon Focus (-)

Necropotent (Fighter L.4, Prof)
Power Critical (+4 BAB)



Interestingly Enough, Fist of the Heavens is a Fighter Feat that is part of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat tree, with Sanctify Ki Strike between it and it's root.
Sanctify Ki Strike is a part of the Improved Unarmed Strike tree, and requires no other feats to be qualified for.
However, Sanctifiy Ki Strike is not a Fighter Bonus Feat...
I think, if I understand this, this means that the fighter does have Fist of the Heavens, but must obtain Sanctify Ki Strike [and to do so, will likely need Ki Strike (Lawful)] through other sources to use it.

Shield Proficiency is listed as one of your root-feats, but as far as I can tell it is not on the list of Fighter Bonus Feats. I know fighters have that feat, as well as barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers, but does not the root feat need to be an FBF?

[Vinculi]

Hey guys. Been lurking quietly around here for a while, and decided to finally make an account so I could join in on this.

I've been running games with something similar to this for a while, and thought I'd give you my experience of it, since I've actually been DMing a campaign with this sort of stuff for about 7 months now.

Basically, any time your PC fills ALL the prerequisites for an "improved" or "greater" version of a feat, your character automatically gains that feat when s/he levels up.

eg, a level 3 character has cleave, levels up to 4. That character now fills all pre-reqs for the improved version of cleave, and so gets the feat Great Cleave, without actually spending a feat on it.

This is consistent across ALL character classes, but its the fighter that really benefits from it, since the fighter can purchase the early feats for different fighting styles every level, and have that style of combat level up with them.

Its been working very well so far. I realized that the problem my fighters were having was that to be effective, they had to invest completely in one style of combat (2handed charger, shocktrooper/dungeoncrasher, archery, TWF), but now they can manage to master all of them by late levels.

What's really great about it so far is that by giving the useful little things like improved TWF and stuff for free, a lot of my players have started using their fighter bonus feats to pick up the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats, meaning I've got a fighter in my party who uses the Thicket of Blades stance and a spiked chain/combat reflexes to lock the area around him down, but only about a third of his feats are invested in this combat style.

As an example, here is the feat list from one of my players level (elf) 6 fighter (the free "upgraded feats are marked with an asterisk):

Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
*Improved Rapid shot
Manyshot
*Greater Manyshot
Two weapon fighting
*Improved two weapon fighting
Weapon focus: Longbow
*Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Power Attack
*Improved power attack
Cleave
*Great cleave

And from there on, the weapon focus and TWF trees will continue to grow, meaning any future feats can be spent on other stuff, and since he's using an elvencraft bow, he can even utilize his archey and twf skills without having to switch weapons. Its nothing earth shattering, but with a more optimized approach, you can do some really great stuff. A well built fighter using a system like this can do just about anything combat related with perfect competence.

I highly recommend trying something like this out, it favours all the martial classes, but mostly the fighter.

[ben-zayb]

Have you thought about its repercussions in gestalt, or does the multiclass rule also mean the Fighter can only get have monster HDs, LAs, paragon classes, and PrCs on the other side? Otherwise, I can see this class being reduced to a mere tough mundane chassis and Chaos Shuffle supply depot.:smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

Shield Proficiency is listed as one of your root-feats, but as far as I can tell it is not on the list of Fighter Bonus Feats. I know fighters have that feat, as well as barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers, but does not the root feat need to be an FBF?
Special: Barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers automatically have Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
Inclusion of Shield Proficiency is in keeping with my original statement, with maybe just a bit of stretching. I stated this as a change to FIGHTER bonus feats, which isn't as strict a requirement as [Fighter] feats. I thought I'd try it out and see how it added to the overall feat chain list. I may pull it back out, because the same sort of chain beginning with Armor Proficiency (light) gets complicated when you get to Exotic Armor Proficiency (Races of Stone). Is it reasonable to have Fighters proficient with all exotic armors, when they're not proficient with all exotic weapons? Other feat chains involving a choice make that choice at the root feat.

Your thoughts?

[Lans]

I'm not too sure about that. You have the feats, obviously, but do you have the WBL for three weapons? Archers need a lot of gold to cover the basics. Energy bow, force property, splitting property, these are pretty expensive. And since all you can do is deal damage and make special attacks (and maybe fear effects, if go for it), you need your WBL to cover your defenses, your movement modes, your perception, etc..

I argue you don't need a fully upgraded weapon . You just need the 2k for a magic weapon and weapon focus to equal a mostly fully upgraded weapon. Even if your not as good as a character with a fully upgraded weapon, you are at least showing up on the damage scale, instead of being a rounding error you were before

[AugustNights]

Huh, I suppose it is a bonus feat that the fighter gets.
Interesting stretch.
I skipped past a few feats that were based on Armor Proficiency, but I think most of them said something like "Proficiency with X" rather than "X Proficiency."

The result of all Fighters (that don't trade armor proficiency away for ACFs) are proficient with all exotic armors doesn't seem like a bad thing, for roughly three reasons; it makes sense that the best all-around fighting class would be proficient in all kinds of crazy armors, the exotic armors don't seem to get a whole lot of play and this might help that, and I don't think it's unreasonable to have all exotic armors a free-fighter thing despite not having all exotic weapons.

[Andion Isurand]

Here's a custom feat I came up with on the spot.

Uncanny Resilience [General]
You have developed a superior resilience against injury and exertion.
Prerequsities: Must have a constitution score.
Benefits:
For the purpose of determining the number of hit points you naturally recover from resting, add the number of feats you possess from the list of fighter bonus feats to your total Hit Dice.
You may elect to delay the onset of any poison's secondary effect by any number of rounds up to the number of feats you possess from the list of fighter bonus feats.
For the purpose of determining the negative hit point total at which you would normally perish, subtract the number of feats you possess from the list of fighter bonus feats.
For the purpose of determining the percentage chance that you'll automatically stabilize each round while dying, add the number of feats you possess from the list of fighter bonus feats.
For the purpose of determining the minimum damage total at which you must save against the threat of massive damage, add the number of feats you possess from the list of fighter bonus feats.
Add the number of feats you possess from the list of fighter bonus feats to the number of rounds you can hold your breath before you must save against the threat of drowning or suffocation.
Special: A fighter may select Uncanny Resilience as one of his or her bonus fighter feats.

[OldTrees1]

Here's a custom feat I came up with on the spot.

Uncanny Resilience [General][Fighter]
You have developed a superior resilience against injury and exertion.
Prerequsities: Must have a constitution score.
Benefits:
-minor benefits-
Special: A fighter may select Uncanny Resilience as one of his or her bonus fighter feats.

Perhaps it is just me, but there did not seem anything in there that would be worthy in comparison to existing [Fighter] feats.

[Andion Isurand]

Yeah, its not that strong and would probably be cannibalized for other uses.

But perhaps that are other benefits that can be conjured up, to scale with the number of fighter feats one has, so benefits are not as linear. In addition, I could see the fighter gaining a bonus feat at every level.

Some Possible Examples:

Improved Initiative [General]
Benefit: You gain a bonus on initiative checks, equal to 4 plus 1 for every four feats you posses from the list of fighter bonus feats (rounded down), including this one.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Initiative as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Weapon Specialization [General]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon.
Benefit: You gain a bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon equal to 1 plus 1 for every four feats you possess from the list of fighter bonus feats (rounded down), including this one.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Toughness [General]
A creature with this feat is significantly tougher than normal.
Prerequisite: Base Fortitude save bonus +2
Benefit: You gain a number of hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus the number of feats you possess from the list of fighter bonus feats, including this one. If and when this total changes, the hit points you gain from this feat change accordingly.
Special: A fighter can select Improved Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Dragonexx]

No, this hasn't been done before. Instead of my auto-completion of FBF feat chains for Fighters, the Races of War system has removed the feat chains and changed all the individual feats to scale based on BAB or other attributes. It does nothing to make the Fighter the best fighting class.

Sorry for responding rather late, but RoW does do a fighter fix.

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Class

[Curmudgeon]

Sorry for responding rather late, but RoW does do a fighter fix.

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Class
You've provided this same link three times now. I've already pointed out that it's a completely different (much more complex, but offering fewer total benefits) "fix" than my Fighter feat chain auto-completion proposal.

I have to wonder, are you somehow making money off this? You seem awfully persistent. :smallconfused:

[Dragonexx]

If I was, you'd find hundreds of links. And I'm pretty sure I've only linked to that place only twice...

And insomnia will do that to you.

Just a thought, instead of auto completing a chain with one feat, howabout allowing the feats to give extra benefits to fighters.

Like when power attack is taken by a fighter, they get extra damage on top of what it would normally give.

[OldTrees1]

Just a thought, instead of auto completing a chain with one feat, howabout allowing the feats to give extra benefits to fighters.

Like when power attack is taken by a fighter, they get extra damage on top of what it would normally give.

This would be interesting.

I would suggest implementing it by having Fighters gain 2 class features (Techniques and Feats). Feats are just feats. Techniques either replicate a feat/feats (if the fighter doesn't have the feat/feats) or they augment the feat/feats (if the fighter has the feat/feats).

[Gwendol]

Nice idea, and in vein with what has been bounced around this board before! The Fighter needs more love, that's for sure.

Curmudgeon, you have at least one error and one omission in your last list of feat trees.
Mage slayer is required for Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment. However it's Pierce Magical Protection that requires a CON score of 13.
Pierce Magical Concealment requires both Mage Slayer and Blind Fight.

Blind Fight opens up a host of feats: Blindsight, 5-foot Radius (SF) , Combat Awareness (PH2) , Focused Perception (CP) , Hear The Unseen (CAd) , Pierce Magical Concealment (CAr) , Shadowborn Warrior (DrU) , Blindsight, 5-ft. Radius (DD)

One observation though: In my copy of CAr Mage Slayer is not listed as a FBF. Does that invalidate that particular feat chain from this discussion?

[Taelas]

Shouldn't Shield Proficiency grant Shield Specialization if it grants Improved Shield Bash? The only requirement for Shield Specialization is proficiency with shields, which Shield Proficiency grants. I am aware that Improved Shield Bash lists Shield Proficiency specifically while Shield Specialization does not, but that seems rather pedantic, as the only way to be proficient with shields is to have Shield Proficiency.

That would mean that you would also get Active Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter and Shield Ward just for being a Fighter, and Shield Sling at +9 BAB. Frankly, none of those feats are so powerful that I would see it as a real problem, but it is a lot of feats.

All that being said, I like the idea, but ... why limit multiclassing to other base classes? It doesn't make sense except as an artificial block against dipping Fighter. That... doesn't strike me as a good enough reason to do it. Even if you let other classes dip into the Fighter and grab the entire chains for only a single dip, a single-classed Fighter will still have more feat-chains and be more well-rounded. The more feat chains they want, the more they have to invest in the Fighter, which is precisely what you want anyway.

[heavyfuel]

This idea seem really wrong to me because while it does make the fighter stronger, it makes Fighter DIPS insane.

A Rogue for instance could dip 2 levels in Fighter and now would get access to all feats in the Dodge and TWF line. The fighter won't become a class that you might want to actually invest in like said Rogue or the Warblade, no, it will keep on being used exactly the way it is now: Take 2 levels in fighter for 2 FBF, only now they actually give you the entire feat chain.

You say you want the Fighter to be the best fighting class, but Barbs and Warblades would still be better than you by simply taking 2 levels in Fighter and netting 10+ FBFs

My solution:

I haven't read all the posts so someone else ma have already suggested it, but I think it would work better if every level you gain a FBF, you also get one from a feat chain you chose previously.

So if you choose Dodge at Fighter 1
At Fighter 2 you could get another feat (say, TWF) + Mobility
At Fighter 4 you Spring attack, TW Defense and yet another feat (eg, Weapon Focus)
So on so forth

So the FBF wouldn't AUTOMATICALLY give you every feat, but every other Fighter level would eventually give you that.

[Nightraiderx]

This idea seem really wrong to me because while it does make the fighter stronger, it makes Fighter DIPS insane.

A Rogue for instance could dip 2 levels in Fighter and now would get access to all feats in the Dodge and TWF line. The fighter won't become a class that you might want to actually invest in like said Rogue or the Warblade, no, it will keep on being used exactly the way it is now: Take 2 levels in fighter for 2 FBF, only now they actually give you the entire feat chain.

You say you want the Fighter to be the best fighting class, but Barbs and Warblades would still be better than you by simply taking 2 levels in Fighter and netting 10+ FBFs

My solution:

I haven't read all the posts so someone else ma have already suggested it, but I think it would work better if every level you gain a FBF, you also get one from a feat chain you chose previously.

So if you choose Dodge at Fighter 1
At Fighter 2 you could get another feat (say, TWF) + Mobility
At Fighter 4 you Spring attack, TW Defense and yet another feat (eg, Weapon Focus)
So on so forth

So the FBF wouldn't AUTOMATICALLY give you every feat, but every other Fighter level would eventually give you that.

This is what I originally suggested, basically multiple feat progression.
The FBF list should extend to feats that require fighter bonus feats as a perquisite, such as some of the weapon style feats.

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, you have at least one error and one omission in your last list of feat trees.
Mage slayer is required for Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment. However it's Pierce Magical Protection that requires a CON score of 13.
Pierce Magical Concealment requires both Mage Slayer and Blind Fight.
Thanks for the correction. With multiple roots, Pierce Magical Concealment doesn't qualify for feat chain auto-completion. I had both feats in the list, but removed the wrong one by mistake.

One observation though: In my copy of CAr Mage Slayer is not listed as a FBF. Does that invalidate that particular feat chain from this discussion?
Really? My copy says "Mage Slayer1" on page 74. The footnote is
1 A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Gwendol]

Thanks for the correction. With multiple roots, Pierce Magical Concealment doesn't qualify for feat chain auto-completion. I had both feats in the list, but removed the wrong one by mistake.

Really? My copy says "Mage Slayer1" on page 74.

Ah, and I was looking at the actual feat description on page 81. Sorry about that!

In any case, Blind Fight is a FBF and does open up for a whole host of feats many of which grants new abilities.