[PF] Oracle help! - Trouble with excelling in any one thing in particular

[Unbalanced]

So I've played one session as my oracle, and I enjoyed it, but planning for the down the track I just can't seem to work out how to make him particularly great at anything.

I was thinking of being a summoner, because that keeps him out of the thick of it and also assists the group's rogue at getting his sneak attack bonuses. Not just monsters, but the odd weapon and such as well. But to make the summoned monsters of any real worth, I'd need to invest a few feats... And then the question comes "why not just play a summoner?"

Then I was thinking perhaps specialize in mind control (enchantment) spells which I really love the flavour of, but then the problem arises of lack of options on the available spell list, and the fact that as soon as we come up against something smart, I'll be useless.

Thirdly I thought perhaps (as I have the highest HP and equal highest AC in the group) I could be a melee caster, speciailizing in hurting/debuffing with touch spells, but then the concentration checks in PF are pretty harsh for defensive casting and the spells per day would quickly run out if I'm using them as my primary attack.

So now I'm a bit stuck and I don't really know what direction to go in... Any advice?
This is my level 1 build which is 100% unchangeable, but everything from level 2 onwards is completely open.


Human
(Alternate racial trait: Focused Study)

STR 14
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 18 (+2)

Languages (lipread only):
Common, Celestial, Draconic

Traits:
Seeker - +1 bonus to perception and perception becomes a class skill.
Wolf Cub - Once per day as a standard action, you can take a deep breath through your nose to gain the scent ability for 1 minute.

Oracle 1-
HP: 10
Initiative: +0 (+4 Cha, -4 deafness)
Attack: +2 (Str +2)
Damage: 1D4+3 (bite)
AC: 17 (Chain shirt +4, Dex +1, Heavy steel shield +2)
Saves: FORT +2 (Con +2), REF +1 (Dex +1), WILL +2 (Oracle +2)
Oracle: Mystery (time), Oracle's Curse (deaf & wolfscarred face), Orisons, Revelation
Revelation: Temporal Celerity
Feat: Noble Scion (Scion of War)
Focused Study: Knowledge (Religion)

Spells:
0 level - Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, Spark
1st level (4 per day) - Cure Light Wounds, Murderous Command [DC 15], Forbid Action [DC 15]

Skills:
Disguise- +5 (+1 rank, +4 Cha)
Heal- +4 (+1 rank, +3 class skill)
Knowledge (arcana)- +3 (+1 rank, +2 Int)
Knowledge (history)- +6 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +2 Int)
Knowledge (planes)- +6 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +2 Int)
Knowledge (religion)- +9 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +3 focused study, +2 Int)
Perception- +5 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +1 seeker)


(As a side note, I chose focused study, not for the eldritch heritage feat chain, but for the flavour of my character being very well educated)

[Feint's End]

Let me start with saying that you made some wonky, wonky ... really really wonky decisions here (giving up the bonus feat for one of the worst feats in the game? Because you couldn't just flavour your character?) but I'll try my best anywho.


So I've played one session as my oracle, and I enjoyed it, but planning for the down the track I just can't seem to work out how to make him particularly great at anything.

You don't need to be particualarly great at anything to be a viable groupmember. I also think you underestimate the Oracle class a bit ... you will probably be the best buffer/debuffer in the group depending on your spellselection.
I'd personally go for the warrior Oracle in your case because the time mistery works quite well with a melee oriented Oracle.


I was thinking of being a summoner, because that keeps him out of the thick of it and also assists the group's rogue at getting his sneak attack bonuses. Not just monsters, but the odd weapon and such as well. But to make the summoned monsters of any real worth, I'd need to invest a few feats... And then the question comes "why not just play a summoner?"

There are always different ways to do something and summons from an Oracle are equally potent (except for the longer summoning time) + you have more spells and options.
I'd probably not focus on this one though OR see it as a sidefocus for a debuffer/battlefieldcontroller.


Then I was thinking perhaps specialize in mind control (enchantment) spells which I really love the flavour of, but then the problem arises of lack of options on the available spell list, and the fact that as soon as we come up against something smart, I'll be useless.

Yeah it's not really a good spelllist (and especially mystery) for this kind of playstyle. Actually you want to have a mind control spell when you come up against something smart because those are the situations they are the most effective.


Thirdly I thought perhaps (as I have the highest HP and equal highest AC in the group) I could be a melee caster, speciailizing in hurting/debuffing with touch spells, but then the concentration checks in PF are pretty harsh for defensive casting and the spells per day would quickly run out if I'm using them as my primary attack.

Melee casters don't use touch attacks ... they buff up and CODzilla. This is probably the best option for you and the one you could focus on.


Human
(Alternate racial trait: Focused Study)

STR 14
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 18 (+2)

Languages (lipread only):
Common, Celestial, Draconic

Traits:
Seeker - +1 bonus to perception and perception becomes a class skill.
Wolf Cub - Once per day as a standard action, you can take a deep breath through your nose to gain the scent ability for 1 minute.

Oracle 1-
HP: 10
Initiative: +0 (+4 Cha, -4 deafness)
Attack: +2 (Str +2)
Damage: 1D4+3 (bite)
AC: 17 (Chain shirt +4, Dex +1, Heavy steel shield +2)
Saves: FORT +2 (Con +2), REF +1 (Dex +1), WILL +2 (Oracle +2)
Oracle: Mystery (time), Oracle's Curse (deaf & wolfscarred face), Orisons, Revelation
Revelation: Temporal Celerity
Feat: Noble Scion (Scion of War)
Focused Study: Knowledge (Religion)

Spells:
0 level - Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, Spark
1st level (4 per day) - Cure Light Wounds, Murderous Command [DC 15], Forbid Action [DC 15]

Skills:
Disguise- +5 (+1 rank, +4 Cha)
Heal- +4 (+1 rank, +3 class skill)
Knowledge (arcana)- +3 (+1 rank, +2 Int)
Knowledge (history)- +6 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +2 Int)
Knowledge (planes)- +6 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +2 Int)
Knowledge (religion)- +9 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +3 focused study, +2 Int)
Perception- +5 (+1 rank, +3 class skill, +1 seeker)

-Put points into Diplomacy and you become the parties face (something you can then further increase by buffs) ... I guarantee you, you will do good
-why do you have two curses? Dualcursed?
-deafness is probably the worst curse there is: It actually screws your groupmates when they want to communicate with you in combat. I talked about being deaf to a friend of mine some time ago and we came to the conclussion that it is a way to big drawback and while interesting roleplaywise it pretty much screws you combatwise (if you play realistically)
-spells are ok but I'd pick more general use buff and debuff spells from now on (you can get healing from a wand)


(As a side note, I chose focused study, not for the eldritch heritage feat chain, but for the flavour of my character being very well educated)

... This is ... I mean ... do you really .... WHHAAAATTT?
What happened to just having things in your backstory and reflected in skills?


Please add more questions for specifics.

[Unbalanced]

Thanks for the response. Very much appreciated!



Let me start with saying that you made some wonky, wonky ... really really wonky decisions here (giving up the bonus feat for one of the worst feats in the game? Because you couldn't just flavour your character?) but I'll try my best anywho.
Firstly, when I originally starting building the character, I honestly had trouble of thinking of feats that would be decently beneficial, hence why I chose to give up the bonus feat. Also, the flavour is there in my backstory, but I have to be able to back it up with a really good skill check for it to actually make sense.

Another thing is now that I've made this choice, I'm thinking perhaps the Eldritch Heritage feat chain is worth investing in??



You don't need to be particualarly great at anything to be a viable groupmember. I also think you underestimate the Oracle class a bit ... you will probably be the best buffer/debuffer in the group depending on your spellselection.
Probably. I'm coupled with a rogue and an alchemist for my journeys.
On the topic of being a good buffer/debuffer, what are some good spell choices? Are there any feats to further improve my buffing/debuffing abilities to allow me to truly excel? And are there any out-of-the-box uses for some of the spells that maybe don't sound so good on paper?



Yeah it's not really a good spelllist (and especially mystery) for this kind of playstyle. Actually you want to have a mind control spell when you come up against something smart because those are the situations they are the most effective.
How so? My logic says intelligent creatures will have better will saves and hence will be less likely to succumb to my spells???



Melee casters don't use touch attacks ... they buff up and CODzilla. This is probably the best option for you and the one you could focus on.
More than happy to go down that path, but again, what are some good spell and feat choices to help me do this? Currently, I'm using my wolf-bite as my primary attack as I need a free hand for casting and my other hand is carrying my shield. Should I ditch the shield and pick up a weapon? OR perhaps focus on using my shield as my primary weapon?



-Put points into Diplomacy and you become the parties face (something you can then further increase by buffs) ... I guarantee you, you will do good.
The rogue has diplomacy covered, and my lack of speech would also make RPing being "diplomatic" rather difficult.


-why do you have two curses? Dualcursed?
Yes, sorry, I didn't mention that in the build description, my bad. Dual-cursed indeed, and hence cast every spell as a silent spell, and have a wolf-ish face with a bite attack. The bite attack will be the non-scaling curse.



-deafness is probably the worst curse there is: It actually screws your groupmates when they want to communicate with you in combat. I talked about being deaf to a friend of mine some time ago and we came to the conclussion that it is a way to big drawback and while interesting roleplaywise it pretty much screws you combatwise (if you play realistically)
Granted. It will be difficult. Very difficult. But I do love the flavour of it, and I also love the silent spells. So far I've basically been the strong silent type. "Saying" little to nothing. (And when I say "saying", I mean writing on the small chalkboard around my neck that I use for communication.)
I do especially love the fact that Forbid Action and Murderous Command are 2 spells which have vocal only components, and, as such, I only have to look at an enemy to cast my spell and manipulate their actions.



-spells are ok but I'd pick more general use buff and debuff spells from now on (you can get healing from a wand)
The cure wounds spells get picked up automatically, they weren't chosen. But I figure they might come in handy every so often for some down-time healing...



... This is ... I mean ... do you really .... WHHAAAATTT?
What happened to just having things in your backstory and reflected in skills?
Refer to the first bit...
Backstory is there but I need to walk the walk too.

[Feint's End]

Firstly, when I originally starting building the character, I honestly had trouble of thinking of feats that would be decently beneficial, hence why I chose to give up the bonus feat. Also, the flavour is there in my backstory, but I have to be able to back it up with a really good skill check for it to actually make sense.

Hmm I see where you are coming from. Is human a flavourchoice then? Because Half Elf could have done something similar but adding some other good stuff like low light vision. It comes down to which race you prefer I guess (I personally think humans are boring to play and run something else but there are different tastes).
Can't change it now anyways so lets get going shall we?


Another thing is now that I've made this choice, I'm thinking perhaps the Eldritch Heritage feat chain is worth investing in??

It most certainly is BUT it really depends on the Heritage you are choosing and since you already have the skill focus (knowledge (religion)) you are limited to either Arcane or Undead and while Arcane has some neat stuff for a spontaneous caster (no increase in casting time for metamagic) it's probably not as good for a CODzilla build with buffing and debuffing added.

Arcane is still an amazing bloodline so you might as well get it ... it's not all to urgent though. You want the first feat before level 11 so you can pick the second one at 11 (for reduced metamagic or a sorceror/wizard spell) ... from there onwards you can pretty much pick the improved bloodline 2 more times and later add the greater bloodline.


On the topic of being a good buffer/debuffer, what are some good spell choices? Are there any feats to further improve my buffing/debuffing abilities to allow me to truly excel? And are there any out-of-the-box uses for some of the spells that maybe don't sound so good on paper?

Some spells:
0.
-Create Water (use it to detect invisible enemies)
1.
-Divine Favor (get the CODzilla started)
-Shield of Faith (ac buff)
2.
-bull's strength
-Silence (even better for you)
-weapon of awe (only if you want to go determined melee)

Basically you can use a lot of spells out of the books in a creative way but your concern should be getting a few solid buff spells (mainly for yourself with a few aoe buffs in for good measure). Best is you go through the spell list and pick spells with a decent duration and some sort of bonus for your allies or penalty for your enemies.



How so? My logic says intelligent creatures will have better will saves and hence will be less likely to succumb to my spells???

Most intelligent creatures can be targeted by mind control spells and that's the selling point. Another reason is that intelligent enemies are more often than not more dangerous than the brutes. Just pump the save dc and you'll still have a decent chance to affect them ... and if you do -> ouch for the enemies!


More than happy to go down that path, but again, what are some good spell and feat choices to help me do this? Currently, I'm using my wolf-bite as my primary attack as I need a free hand for casting and my other hand is carrying my shield. Should I ditch the shield and pick up a weapon? OR perhaps focus on using my shield as my primary weapon?

I already mentioned some above. What you really want to have is Divine Power but you gotta wait till level 8 for that.

Some feats you should do and some weapons choices:
-get Power Attack ASAP
-get Heavy Armor Profiency (your stats make melee hard to do without a heavy armor)
-get a two handed weapon (preferrably with reach but that'S optional. Spear is a solid choice for a simple weapon)
-put attribute raises in strength (all of them ... you don't need charisma so much if you melee)


The rogue has diplomacy covered, and my lack of speech would also make RPing being "diplomatic" rather difficult.

Granted


Granted. It will be difficult. Very difficult. But I do love the flavour of it, and I also love the silent spells. So far I've basically been the strong silent type. "Saying" little to nothing. (And when I say "saying", I mean writing on the small chalkboard around my neck that I use for communication.)
I do especially love the fact that Forbid Action and Murderous Command are 2 spells which have vocal only components, and, as such, I only have to look at an enemy to cast my spell and manipulate their actions.

Well it's definitely a cool character concept and looking at your group you will do fine with it. So no problems there :smallsmile:


Now some thoughts at you character at level 4:
-you picked Bull's strength and power attack + a +1 spear
-now you buff up with Bull's strength, Bless (for your whole group), Weapon of Awe, Divine Favour -> combined giving you: +4 str, +3 to hit, +4 damage

Your attack now (using power attack): +3(bab)+4(str)+1(weapon)+3(buffs)-1(pa)=+10
damage: 1d8+1(weapon)+6(str)+4(buffs)=15.5 average

It will just go upwards from there with getting pretty awesome around level 8 with divine power. Just don't forget to pick up rods of extend (later you can get the metamagic too) to buff up before combat because in combat you don't want to spend actions buffing (1 round of buffing is the maximum you should need in combat).

For feats you should take: Power Attack (3), Heavy Armor Prof (5), Martial/Exotic Weapon (7), Eldritch Heritage Feats (9+)

Get Metamagic through rods

Spellwise focus on 1-2 good buff spells per level (as shown by me) and pick utility otherwise with a few debufss thrown in for good measure (bestow curse comes to mind).

You should also put money together to get a wand of cure light wounds ASAP (250g per person is easily attainable) so you don't have to waste spellslots on healing in combat.

[Arbane]

I already mentioned some above. What you really want to have is Divine Power but you gotta wait till level 8 for that.


Blessing of Fervor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blessing-of-fervor) is about as good, and effects the entire party. Both are fun - sadly, the extra attacks don't stack...probably. (The spells only say they don't stack with Haste or Speed weapons, but I'd expect thrown rulebooks if I tried to claim their attacks stack with each other.)

[Feint's End]

Blessing of Fervor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blessing-of-fervor) is about as good, and effects the entire party. Both are fun - sadly, the extra attacks don't stack...probably. (The spells only say they don't stack with Haste or Speed weapons, but I'd expect thrown rulebooks if I tried to claim their attacks stack with each other.)

divine power is much better for a selfbuff ... you effectively get up to +9 to hit and +10 to +11 to damage (increases damage, to hit AND strength). You might need to get Blessing of Fervor anyways for your party but for yourself Divine Power is much better.

Also agree on the bookthrowing part :smallbiggrin:

edit:
even when you get it the first time it gives you +3 to hit and +3 or+4 to damage and it only gets better from there.

[Arbane]

divine power is much better for a selfbuff ... you effectively get up to +9 to hit and +10 to +11 to damage (increases damage, to hit AND strength). You might need to get Blessing of Fervor anyways for your party but for yourself Divine Power is much better.


I don't think so - the way it's worded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/divine-power), it doesn't increase strength _directly_, just 'strength checks'. You could argue a melee attack is one of those, but be ready for thrown rulebooks again...

It is good, but I don't think it's that good.

[Feint's End]

I don't think so - the way it's worded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/divine-power), it doesn't increase strength _directly_, just 'strength checks'. You could argue a melee attack is one of those, but be ready for thrown rulebooks again...

It is good, but I don't think it's that good.

You are right ... my bad! For some reason I misread it twice.

It's still better for pure selfbuffing though.

[Unbalanced]

With a melee focus in mind, is it worth taking a 2 level dip into paladin?
That'll net me heavy armour proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, +2 to BAB and +CHA to all saves. (And a few other little bits that don't really interest me)

[Feint's End]

With a melee focus in mind, is it worth taking a 2 level dip into paladin?
That'll net me heavy armour proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, +2 to BAB and +CHA to all saves. (And a few other little bits that don't really interest me)

Hmm that depends ... the slowing down of your casting really presses you into the melee niche -> If you'd stay Oracle you'd get better casting faster.

The main problem is that you don't really have many feats you need to begin with (power attack and ... umm ... that's about it) so while taking those feats usually hurts it doesn't do it so much for you.

I personally wouldn't do it (also since you lack the magical knack trait) and suggest you stay straight up Oracle but if you really think you need it go ahead (swift action selfheal is also decent for a melee) ... you could to much worse.

edit: also smite evil would do you some good even though you are limited to one use per day.