Smallest LA+0 Race

[rmnimoc]

What is the tiniest LA+0 race?
Reason I ask is so I can get an MBEG (mini-bad-evil-guy) that throws ridiculously oversized tridents at people.

[HunterOfJello]

Kobolds are pretty much the smallest.

They even gave them a web enhancement where they got the Slight Build racial feature.


*edit*

Oh, I thought you were asking which race that was "Small" was the smallest. That would be kobolds.

Which LA+0 race has the smallest size would be something else.

[Malroth]

half giant can be fine sized if they've been affected by a few castings of "return to nature"

[eggynack]

The jermalaine (MM II, 131) is LA+0 and tiny. For reference they were given their LA in the MM II update booklet, which can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a).

[Vaz]

Return to Nature is stacking with itself so technically doesn't work.

A Jermlaine Psionic character can use Augmented Compression to shrink to Fine by ECL5.

[Codyage]

Sparrow Hengeyokai, can turn into a fine size sparrow, a medium sized human, or a medium hybrid. LA +0 after OA and dragon magazine errata.

[Ruethgar]

Muckdwellers are naturally tiny LA +0, and anything that comes near them gets instantly blinded.

[Renen]

Isnt there that race that lives for only 1 year?
Dont remember the name

[ShurikVch]

Hairy Spider
Fine Vermin
Hit Dice: 1/8 d8 (1 hp)
LA +0.

[Chronos]

Quoth Vaz:

Return to Nature is stacking with itself so technically doesn't work.
It's instantaneous, so it's not technically stacking with itself.

[Vedhin]

Hairy Spider
Fine Vermin
Hit Dice: 1/8 d8 (1 hp)
LA +0.

And Int -

That means no feats/skills.

If you want to engage in template stacking, you can use Skitterhaunt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20021123a) (scroll down, no LA listed, and for templates that means same as before).
Then apply Sentry Ooze from Dungeonscape (another unlisted LA, and therefore identical)
Finally, at 4 HD, put the ability increase into Intelligence. (for PCs only)

Alternatively, after Skitterhaunt have someone cast the awaken ooze spell from Dragon Magazine 304 (pg. 38)

[Urpriest]

By MBEG (variant of BBEG), do you mean an NPC? If so, why do you care about LA?

[CyberThread]

Mini...i would suggest sparrow. Using warlock class levels. Firing medIum sized lazers

[ShurikVch]

And Int -

That means no feats/skills.

If you want to engage in template stacking, you can use Skitterhaunt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20021123a) (scroll down, no LA listed, and for templates that means same as before).
Then apply Sentry Ooze from Dungeonscape (another unlisted LA, and therefore identical)
Finally, at 4 HD, put the ability increase into Intelligence. (for PCs only)

Alternatively, after Skitterhaunt have someone cast the awaken ooze spell from Dragon Magazine 304 (pg. 38)
One variant is apply Celestial or Fiendish template. Int 3, and LA +2 relatively easy to buy off

Another possible variant is to use Awaken Vermin, then apply Petitioner template to lower racial HD (there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17185141&postcount=13))

[Inevitability]

Wouldn't a venerable hairy spider gain +3 to all mental ability scores? It seems silly, but RAW it should work.

[Vedhin]

One variant is apply Celestial or Fiendish template. Int 3, and LA +2 relatively easy to buy off

My method has no LA; you just have to start at level 4. And non-PCs don't even need Int 3, they just need an Int score to gain feats and skills.



Another possible variant is to use Awaken Vermin, then apply Petitioner template to lower racial HD (there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17185141&postcount=13))

Petitioner would work, but you missed Planar Commitment. And you still lose feats and skills.


Wouldn't a venerable hairy spider gain +3 to all mental ability scores? It seems silly, but RAW it should work.

If we knew its age categories, sure. Provided, as mentioned below, you got an Intelligence score.

[Alcibiades]

Wouldn't a venerable hairy spider gain +3 to all mental ability scores? It seems silly, but RAW it should work.

Int - is not the same as Int 0. You can't give an undead a constitution score with a bonus, either. So that doesn't work.

[ShurikVch]

Wouldn't a venerable hairy spider gain +3 to all mental ability scores? It seems silly, but RAW it should work. Only if was Awakened, Mindswithched or had some template with Int≥3 before Middle age


Petitioner would work, but you missed Planar Commitment. Please, check 3.5 update (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Manual_of_the_Planes.zip) for Manual of the Planes, petitioners of Abyss and Hades

[Vedhin]

Please, check 3.5 update (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Manual_of_the_Planes.zip) for Manual of the Planes, petitioners of Abyss and Hades

Why is the mindless creature (auotmatically True Neutral) going to an Evil plane? I'm pretty sure it would go the Beastlands, like animals, if it went anywhere.

And, like I stealthily edited in above, you lose feats/skills.

Edit: Also, Petitioner comes with 2 RHD, which are ineligible for trading out.

[ShurikVch]

Why is the mindless creature (auotmatically True Neutral) going to an Evil plane? I'm pretty sure it would go the Beastlands, like animals, if it went anywhere. Maybe it was awakened by evil Master of Flies? Also, if it live a long live, it had plenty of opportunities to change alignment. (Hey, maybe it read Book of Vile Darkness at some point!) And fiendish creatures are evil by default.


And, like I stealthily edited in above, you lose feats/skills. From MotP:

Exceptional Petitioners
The deities may choose particular servants for specific tasks who may remember something of their previous selves. These exceptional petitioners retain the feats and skills that they had in life but are otherwise limited as the other petitioners of their plane are.


Edit: Also, Petitioner comes with 2 RHD, which are ineligible for trading out. Yes, but Awakened vermin will have at least 3 HD (4 if SLA was Empowered), so Petitioner is advantageous in sense of lowering HD

[Inevitability]

Bonuses to Intelligence apply to mindless races.
The proof:

In dungeonscape, there's a template called 'sentry ooze' that can be applied to any mindless ooze. It gives them spell resistance, +4 dexterity, +10 wisdom, +10 charisma and +2 intelligence. Later on, when the template talks about skills and feats, it is confirmed that the +2 intelligence bonus grants it an intelligence score.

[Alcibiades]

Sentry ooze specifies that the base creature is no longer mindless. That's what gives it an intelligence score of 0 (then raised to 2), not the actual +2 bonus to intelligence.

Mindless creatures do not have an intelligence score. If you don't have a score, you can't raise it - it's not 0, it's 'undefined'.

[Inevitability]

Sentry ooze specifies that the base creature is no longer mindless. That's what gives it an intelligence score of 0 (then raised to 2), not the actual +2 bonus to intelligence.

I see the line of 'no longer mindless' more as a reminder that the ooze is vulnerable to mind-affecting spells from now on. It nowhere says that the line is the reason it is not longer mindless. In my opinion, the ooze is not longer mindless because it gains +2 int.

There is now RAW way to determine which way of reading the template is correct.

By the way, it is still possible to be a intelligent hairy spider.

Hairy spider + Skitterhaunt (found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20021123a)) + Sentry ooze doesn't only give you intelligence. (no matter how you read it) but it also boosts your wisdom score into the stratosphere. The CR of the spider will increase by 3 if you apply both, but that seems worth it. Give it levels of cleric (or psychic warrior, for better trident throwing)

[Chronos]

No, a sentry ooze is no longer mindless because the template says that it's no longer mindless. It does what it says it does. This does not apply a precedent for templates that do not say that.

[Vedhin]

From MotP:

Key words being "that they had in life". You have to already have an Int score, in which case you already get feats and skills. If that is the case, why switch to Petitioner?

[Alcibiades]

I see the line of 'no longer mindless' more as a reminder that the ooze is vulnerable to mind-affecting spells from now on. It nowhere says that the line is the reason it is not longer mindless. In my opinion, the ooze is not longer mindless because it gains +2 int.

There is now RAW way to determine which way of reading the template is correct.

There is: By RAW, a mindless creature does not have an intelligence score, and you cannot increase what doesn't exist.

You're being circular; you brought up the template to prove your point, and now to justify your liberal reading of the template you're pointing back to your original point.

[ShurikVch]

Key words being "that they had in life". You have to already have an Int score, in which case you already get feats and skills. If that is the case, why switch to Petitioner?
Awakened vermin have 3 racial HD (or even 4, in case of Empower)
Exceptional Petitioner have 2 racial HD, feats and skillpoints like 3(4) HD outsider, and truckload of various useful special qualities. Say, Mental Immunity

[Inevitability]

Sentry ooze specifies that the base creature is no longer mindless. That's what gives it an intelligence score of 0 (then raised to 2), not the actual +2 bonus to intelligence.

If I apply the wight template to a Giant Ant Worker, it becomes undead, and thus loses all vermin traits, and because of that, loses the 'mindless' trait.
According to your logic, since it is no longer mindless, it should now have an intelligence score of 0. However, it seems weird to have the Giant Ant now be caught in a 'coma-like stupor'.

According to what I suggested, it should now have an intelligence score of 10, since it is the standard amount for any race, and nothing indicates otherwise. To me, that seems far more reasonable.

[CyberThread]

You can't go Pet, becuse you pretty much lose the ability to play a character.

[Vedhin]

Awakened vermin have 3 racial HD (or even 4, in case of Empower)
Exceptional Petitioner have 2 racial HD, feats and skillpoints like 3(4) HD outsider, and truckload of various useful special qualities. Say, Mental Immunity

I suppose that might work. I prefer Skitterhaunt+Sentry Ooze for acid spitting and ooze traits though.


If I apply the wight template to a Giant Ant Worker, it becomes undead, and thus loses all vermin traits, and because of that, loses the 'mindless' trait.
According to your logic, since it is no longer mindless, it should now have an intelligence score of 0. However, it seems weird to have the Giant Ant now be caught in a 'coma-like stupor'.

It still has Int -, which gives it the benefits and penalties of mindlessness.



According to what I suggested, it should now have an intelligence score of 10, since it is the standard amount for any race, and nothing indicates otherwise. To me, that seems far more reasonable.

If a template does not mention otherwise, things are unchanged.

And even if the template adds Int, it still makes no change. As per the SRD:


These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether.

You cannot add to something that does not exist.
Sentry Ooze gives an Int of 2 because it calls out that it does so, unlike the general rule.

[TroubleBrewing]

Sparrow Hengyokai Psychic Warrior 1. After Compression, they're like Fine-minus-one or something.

[Inevitability]

Looks like I'll have to explain it again.

Whenever a creature has a nonability, it is for a reason. There is no monster that has an ability score of: -- with no reference in the rules that explains why.

Zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm) have -- constitution and -- intelligence. This is because the zombie template explicitly states:


A zombie’s Strength increases by +2, its Dexterity decreases by 2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.

Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) have no strength score. This is because it has the incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype) subtype, which explicitly states:


An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks.

Monstrous Centipedes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousCentipede.htm) are mindless. This is because they are vermin, and the vermin traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#verminType) explicitly state:


Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).


My point? Creatures are not mindless unless there's a RAW reason they are.
I admit that advancing by age category does not work, but things like Half-Dragon will first change the hairy spider's type to Dragon. A templated creature keeps the features of the old creature, but uses the traits of the new. Dragons are not mindless, so the spider isn't anymore either. It just lost the mindless trait, and now nothing is influencing its intelligence score.
Next, the spider gains a +2 to intelligence. It now has 12/13 intelligence.
Also, the spider now does have an intelligence score, so it can now gain intelligence bonuses for aging.

Plain and simple: Vermin are only mindless because their traits say they are. Vermin who are no longer mindless no longer have anything that influences their intelligence score, making it 10 or 11.

[Vedhin]

Whenever a creature has a nonability, it is for a reason. There is no monster that has an ability score of: -- with no reference in the rules that explains why.

In core, the Shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm), just off the top of my head. It has Dex -- and never says why.



Plain and simple: Vermin are only mindless because their traits say they are. Vermin who are no longer mindless no longer have anything that influences their intelligence score, making it 10 or 11.

If this were correct, how do you know that it is 10 or 11? Why not 1, or 100? There's no way to determine the racial modifier without a score to start from.

[Inevitability]

In core, the Shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm), just off the top of my head. It has Dex -- and never says why.

Take a look at the statblock of a Shrieker. It has -5 to initiative and a -5 dexterity penalty to AC, yet the section about nonabilities explains that creatures with -- in any ability score are treated as having a +0 modifier in that score. The Shrieker also has a seemingly random -5 penalty on its grapple checks. Seeing this, I regard the Shrieker as little more than a poorly written excuse for a monster, made by someone who actually wanted to create an alarm device. I don't think one poorly written statblock can nullify thousands of confirmations for my theory.

Heck, it's even more likely that the -- in both strength and dexterity was an error, and they meant to put a 0 in both. It'd fit a lot better with the other parts of its stats, anyway.



If this were correct, how do you know that it is 10 or 11? Why not 1, or 100? There's no way to determine the racial modifier without a score to start from.

The Hairy Spider has no racial modifiers to intelligence. If it had, they would have been noted somewhere in the rules. The only thing that influences its intelligence is a creature type trait. Human commoners do not have racial modifiers to intelligence either, so they are equally smart. Both have 10 (or eleven) intelligence.