Pathfinder Summoner Biped Eidolon help and tips

[Blackagar]

So this is my first Pathfinder game and my first d20 game, and I chose to do the Summoner because I had a character in my head I wanted to roleplay. I was just wondering how others build a biped? I read the summoners handbook and its an awesome source but I did want to know how others play summoners. I chose to have my eidolon pick up a greatsword was this a bad choice? I also chose human as a race instead of half-elf. Thanks to anyone who helps a newb and keep gaming!

[Feint's End]

So this is my first Pathfinder game and my first d20 game, and I chose to do the Summoner because I had a character in my head I wanted to roleplay. I was just wondering how others build a biped? I read the summoners handbook and its an awesome source but I did want to know how others play summoners. I chose to have my eidolon pick up a greatsword was this a bad choice? I also chose human as a race instead of half-elf. Thanks to anyone who helps a newb and keep gaming!

Summoner is a very solid and hard to mess up class so it is a good choice for a starter character. Problem is the potentially overwhelming amount of Evolutionchoices you have and the potentialy imbalance. Summoners are a solid t3 with a pretty high floor due to their always effective Eidolon ... depending on your group (and assuming they are beginners too) you will definitely overshadow other melees and might seem "op" to other players in your group.
Generally a good choice though and it seems like you put the effort into building the class :smallsmile:.

General on bipeds:
-Bipeds should increase their reach as much as possible because they have no way to move and attack like quadrupeds. If you have for example the large evolution twice (something you always want btw) + Improved Reach Evolution + Lunge (feat) you have a reach of 25ft on your natural attacks.
-If you want to do a similar thing with weapons use a reachweapon (spiked chain comes to mind) and you got yourself a reach of 30ft.

About your choices:
First of all let me tell you that even if you choices are not the most optimal but you have fun playing a character like this then go ahead. Even with suboptimal choices you will still carry your weight and surpase the regular melees.

-Weapon instead of Natural Weapons: Optimizationwise that's probably not a good choice. A Weapon is strongly limited by your BAB and you will only get up to 3 attacks at 20. If you combine it with natural attacks (probably use cheap ones) then you might be better off but I think the claw/rend Eidolon is still the better choice.
Also I suggest blowing a feat on Martial/Exotic Weapon Profiency to pick up the weapon of your choice because the Evolution is not worth it.

-human instead of half-elf: It depends on your build but in my book half-elf beats human everyday of the week. Up to 5 Evolutionpoints are just so much better than a feat. In addition the Summoner doesn't need feats to work so they have a weaker incentive to get bonusfeats. Also humans are boring and deserve to be nerfed :smalltongue:.

Again it comes down to the character you have in mind but those 2 are some points to consider ...

Generally on a biped Eidolon?
-put all attribute raises in Strength
-buy a +str item as soon as possible
-buy +str tomes (those who give inherent boni) later in the game
-get the size increasing evolution ASAP
-get Power Attack ASAP (it's a nice boost to damage and your to hit will be pretty good once you hit later levels)

If you put everything in Strength you will get up to 62 strength at level 20 (you might want to spare some for utility stuff though).

Hope that helped and feel free to add more questions or let me know if I missed something.

[Barstro]

-Bipeds should increase their reach as much as possible because they have no way to move and attack like quadrupeds. If you have for example the large evolution twice (something you always want btw) + Improved Reach Evolution + Lunge (feat) you have a reach of 25ft on your natural attacks.

Unless there has been a change, Reach evolution applies to only ONE attack, not all, and not even one type, but one.:smallfrown:

[Feint's End]

Unless there has been a change, Reach evolution applies to only ONE attack, not all, and not even one type, but one.:smallfrown:

Thanks for pointing that out Barstro. Reach Evolution isn't worth it then.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Thanks for pointing that out Barstro. Reach Evolution isn't worth it then.

You could still take it with bite though, then get grab and use that to pull the offending creature to within reach of your other attacks. Also makes for effective battlefield control as it forces creatures. Maintaining the grapple isn't necessary.

[grarrrg]

-If you want to do a similar thing with weapons use a reachweapon (spiked chain comes to mind) and you got yourself a reach of 30ft.

Spiked Chain got the nerf stick in PF.
No Reach, and any weapon can Trip, just that "Trip special" weapons let you drop them to avoid snapback on a botched attempt.

You now want the Double-Chained Kama (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/eastern-weapons) (I think) as your "best" replacement (maybe Kusarigama? Meteor Hammer?).


Anywho. To use a Weapon with an Eidolon, you first need to decide if you are going to use lots of weapons, or just one weapon to supplement your Naturals.
Going with all Light weapons saves you on Two/Multi-weapon fighting penalties. But going all 1-hand or 2-handed gets more damage.
THEN are you going to spend Evo-Points on group-Weapon Proficiency (2 points all Simples, 4 points all Martials), or burn a Feat on ONE specific weapon.

Remember, you can always reassign Evo Point at level up, but once you take a feat, you are stuck with it (unless retraining rules are in play, but then it's still annoying to retrain).


As for the Reach evolution, it does indeed only work with _ONE_ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qjz) single attack ever, and can only be taken ONCE.
So pick your best Natural Attack, and go for it.

[Feint's End]

Spiked Chain got the nerf stick in PF.
No Reach, and any weapon can Trip, just that "Trip special" weapons let you drop them to avoid snapback on a botched attempt.

You now want the Double-Chained Kama (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/eastern-weapons) (I think) as your "best" replacement (maybe Kusarigama? Meteor Hammer?).

Good to know. Should have looked closer.

edit: Just looked through the Weapons. I think Double-Chained Kama is the most solid replacement but depending on your build Meteor Hammer could be solid too (but since you have to pull evolution you don't really care for the special part of the meteor hammer).


Anywho. To use a Weapon with an Eidolon, you first need to decide if you are going to use lots of weapons, or just one weapon to supplement your Naturals.
Going with all Light weapons saves you on Two/Multi-weapon fighting penalties. But going all 1-hand or 2-handed gets more damage.
THEN are you going to spend Evo-Points on group-Weapon Proficiency (2 points all Simples, 4 points all Martials), or burn a Feat on ONE specific weapon.

Remember, you can always reassign Evo Point at level up, but once you take a feat, you are stuck with it (unless retraining rules are in play, but then it's still annoying to retrain).

Well for me those are all good reasons to for natural weapons -> the mess of using weapons isn't really worth it in my book and you can spend the money on better thing.
And you should take a feat .... the evo cost for martials is ridiculous.


As for the Reach evolution, it does indeed only work with _ONE_ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qjz) single attack ever, and can only be taken ONCE.
So pick your best Natural Attack, and go for it.

It might indeed be worth it on your bite (hell ... one attack is enough to effectively increase your threat range). Lord Vukodlak mentioned the grab Evolution for some extra fun.

[grarrrg]

Well for me those are all good reasons to for natural weapons -> the mess of using weapons isn't really worth it in my book and you can spend the money on better thing.
And you should take a feat .... the evo cost for martials is ridiculous.

The main draw of using Manufactured weapons is that it lets you bypass the "Max Natural Attack" limit.
Max Natural Attack limit can be restrictive for a lot of builds.

[Feint's End]

The main draw of using Manufactured weapons is that it lets you bypass the "Max Natural Attack" limit.
Max Natural Attack limit can be restrictive for a lot of builds.

Yeah I agree to some point. I think the main draw is actually the easy way to increase reach.

If you think about the str increases though (lets assume a half elf) then you will spend about 18 evo points on those alone (8xbrawn 10 for 2 size increases) ... considering some utility in addition you won't have much left for getting many natural attacks.

I'd say the good thing of using weapons is that you can spend more evo points on utility/flight ... and have some secondary attacks for cheap (like tail slaps)

[Blackagar]

Sorry for not replying but thanks a bunch! All of this is exactly what I was looking for and gave me a lot of great stuff. Its great to get other peoples input on how they do it. Awesome info thanks again!