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fluffymoose
2007-02-02, 06:53 PM
I've been trying to decide between getting improved critical or keen (or none at all) and I was hoping someone could give me advice. It seems like, if I have the cash, going for keen would be the better idea since you can only get so many feats, and putting keen on a rapier won't put me out too much. If that was the only issue, then, I'd probably just stick keen on the rapier and be done with it. I'm having trouble making a decision because, it seems to me, it's more beneficial to have an elemental damage enhancement (like sonic) than to increase the crit threat range. And, if I have a +1 rapier doing +1d6 sonic damage, and decide to add something else, I'd be better served putting another 1d6 of some other elemental damage on rather than keen.

So, what would you recommend I do? Take improved critical, and enhance the rapier with a couple elemental damage enchants if I can afford them; put keen on the rapier and free up a feat slot for something fun; or forget the increased threat range?

Just Alex
2007-02-02, 07:02 PM
Keen in the short term, Improved Crit in the long term. Early on, if you can afford to toss Keen on an item, you can use it until you are high enough level to take the feat. The feat is better in the long run because
a) you can get more magical fun on your weapons
b) you can use any weapon of that type in a pinch

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 07:03 PM
Keen doesn't give you new feat options. Improved Critical does.

Keen doesn't increase the threat range of a bludgeoning weapon. Improved Critical does.

Keen doesn't eat up your feat slot. Improved Critical does.

I just wanna go to sleep...

Weezer
2007-02-02, 07:05 PM
I prefer imp. critical because if use loose your +2 keen rapier you don't have the bonus any more, but if you have the feat and find a rapier you use the bonus on the rapier.

Thomas
2007-02-02, 07:12 PM
Feats are precious. If you can "buy a feat" for the price of one more +1 on your weapon, it's worth it. Take keen.

Take Improved Critical only if you need it for another feat (are there any good ones?) or a Prestige Class.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-02, 07:12 PM
Bless weapon also doesn't work with keen, but it does work with improved critical.

Dhavaer
2007-02-03, 02:43 AM
Unless you really can't decide on what feats to get, Keen will probably be better. Money is easier to come by than feats. And besides, it's my last name. :smallwink:

Amiria
2007-02-03, 04:42 AM
Bless weapon also doesn't work with keen, but it does work with improved critical.

Yes, the Keen enchantment can get into the way of nifty spells or makes their effects redundant. Like Bless Weapon, Holy Sword, Exacting Shot (SC), Foebane (SC), Lawful Sword (SC), Weapon of the Deity (SC, only some deities), etc.

In the typical D&D campaign most enemies are evil. Improved Critical is well worth a feat slot then. Hmm, Champion of Correllon Larethian (RoW) with Improved Critical and a +x blessed (BoED), holy elven courtblade (RoW). Evil begone !

daggaz
2007-02-03, 07:40 AM
I would think that keen is better. If you take the feat, you are only doubling the *chance* of a critical. So instead of 1/20 threats, you get 1/10. Its nice, but most people take feats to do something a whole lot more important than just up their damage. (battlefield control, metamagic, PrC qualifing, etc, etc.., all of it can effect the game even when you aren't rolling a dice and hoping to hit a monster) And as many have pointed out, there are lots of spells that will do this for you, as well as just puttin a few gp down for it too.

fluffymoose
2007-02-03, 10:03 AM
Okay, looks like everyone is a little divided on the improved critical vs. keen thing. My other question is, if I decided that keen was better, how does a +1 keen rapier compare with, say, a +1 shocking rapier? Or, how does a +1 keen, shocking rapier compare with a +1 shocking, flaming rapier?

The_Ferg
2007-02-03, 01:01 PM
We house-ruled at one point that imp crit and keen stacked for the reason that keen is an improvement on the weapon and that imp crit is an improvement on your use of the weapon. So, yeah, your keen rapier on which you have placed improved critical has a 12-20 crit range. That's pretty smoking. So, if you can convince the DM, get BOTH.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-03, 01:14 PM
On a purely damage-dealing scale, Keen is better versus low AC opponents while enchantments like Shocking or Flaming are better versus high AC opponents. It also depends on your bonus to damage. If you've got a low damage bonus, scoring a critical hit doesn't help as much, while if you've got a damage bonus in the double digits, the Flaming and Shocking enchantments are less useful.

Per the attack rules, you need to confirm the critical by rolling another "hit" with the weapon. Versus a high AC opponent (let's say you needed to roll a 16 or better to hit), that means that you're only going to be confirming your critical 1 in 4 times. While that might effectively double your damage, the benefit depends on your damage bonus. If you're using your rapier and have a measly +6 to your damage, the critical would only take that to a +12. You may as well take Shocking and Flaming at that point.

However, if you've got a damage bonus of +15, doubling it takes it to a +30. That's an extra 15 damage on top of the extra die to roll. Even if you're only critting and confirming one fourth of the time, that's a meatier pie than the Shocking or Flaming.

Shocking and Flaming are also capable of being reduced by immunities. Hitting a Balor with a Flaming, Shocking weapon is going to be a waste of the +2 equivelant enchantment you put on the thing.

I'd personally take the feat and stick the extra damage enchantments on your weapon, because it gives you the best of both worlds.

Khantalas
2007-02-03, 01:21 PM
We house-ruled at one point that imp crit and keen stacked for the reason that keen is an improvement on the weapon and that imp crit is an improvement on your use of the weapon. So, yeah, your keen rapier on which you have placed improved critical has a 12-20 crit range. That's pretty smoking. So, if you can convince the DM, get BOTH.

You could as well play 3.0 and get a +1 vorpal keen bladed gauntlet and have Improved Critical (bladed gauntlet).

Heads are off about 30% of the time.

Indon
2007-02-03, 01:30 PM
I'd base it on how easily you could get magical weapons in your campaign, and how much you have to spend on them.

If it's just a matter of making a bit of money and dropping by your local magic shop for a purchase, I'd go with keen.

That way, if you want you can get _another_ weapon without keen to use against opponents immune to criticals (Because after a while, it gets cheaper to buy a new weapon than to continue upgrading an old one).

On the other hand, if magic/money's pretty hard to come by, you might be better off with the feat.

iceman
2007-02-03, 01:43 PM
I agree with lanky bugger to a point. I agree that if you have a small damage bonus that the keen effect would be little help to you, but so would the imp. crit feat. I'm going to assume that you are some type of rogue character (probably wrongly but oh well) you should focus on feats and abilities that would strengthen your strong points and not worry so much about your damage out put from your rapier, excepting of course when you are using it to sneak attack someone. I would personally stay away from both seeing as how neither imp. crit or keen will help you all that much. The Bane property meanwhile can be a good choice if you are fighting a lot of the same thing. Also the higher the overall bonus to the weapon the harder it is for someone to sunder. A +5 weapon can only be sundered by a weapon with a +5 or higher enhancement bonus.

grinner666
2007-02-03, 01:55 PM
We house-ruled at one point that imp crit and keen stacked for the reason that keen is an improvement on the weapon and that imp crit is an improvement on your use of the weapon. So, yeah, your keen rapier on which you have placed improved critical has a 12-20 crit range. That's pretty smoking. So, if you can convince the DM, get BOTH.

I've done the same thing, for much the same reason. It actually kind of honked me off that Wizards decided arbitrarily that the two don't stack, when their rationale all along for effects not stacking has been (and still, for the most part, is) similarity of source. Yet Keen Weapon is an enhancement bonus but Improved Critical, while not defined by the rules, is obviously a skill bonus ... or at the very least not enhancement.

And kindly don't harp about game balance. Please. The only weapons (all two of them) that have really good threat ranges do a big d6 damage. That's just about the cruddiest damage in the game, THE cruddiest for a martial weapon. I have no problem with a critical nearly half the time for such a feeble weapon.

But even without that particular house rule I prefer the feat to the magical enhancement for several reasons. First, as has been mentioned before, if you lose that keen rapier or scimitar you won't be doing those criticals anywhere near as often. Second ... because adding an extra elemental damage die is usually a more reliable way to double your damage on those d6 weapons.

Legoman
2007-02-03, 02:10 PM
I've also houseruled that they stack ... I'm just scared of one of my players finding that Tiger Stance from ToB, where you get +1 to attack and damage as an un-named bonus, that keeps stacking as long as you keep getting criticals.

Scary.

Vik
2007-02-03, 02:18 PM
Who cares about the damage dice ? At high level - the ones where you'll have a good Keen weapon and Improved critical, base damage dice is not a great part of the damage.


By the way, if you're going the crit way, forget about additionnal elemental damage dice - they won't use all the efforts put on the crit enhancement. Better stick with simple enhancement bonus, unless you have a comprehensive wizard/cleric willing to cast Greater Magic Weapon daily. anyway, take Keen unless you want to take some feats with IC as a prerequisite.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-03, 02:35 PM
Also the higher the overall bonus to the weapon the harder it is for someone to sunder. A +5 weapon can only be sundered by a weapon with a +5 or higher enhancement bonus.

The first sentence is correct, but the second is not in 3.5.


Hardness and Hit Points
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 222
Problem: The first paragraph is not consistent with similar information for shields on page 217.
Solution: Delete the first sentence after the boldface header.
Change the next sentence to read as follows:
Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or
shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.

Ramza00
2007-02-03, 03:13 PM
Can't believe this hasn't been mentioned

Scabbard of Keen Edges

This scabbard is fashioned from cured leather and fine silver. It can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm) on any blade placed within it.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftWondrousItem), keen edge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm); Price 16,000 gp;Weight 1 lb.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scabbardofKeenEdges

Rigeld2
2007-02-03, 03:35 PM
But it doesnt stack with Improved Crit... since the spell doesnt, and the scabbard simply casts the spell... for less than 3 hours a day. Nifty, but not a breakthrough.

Catharsis
2007-02-03, 05:35 PM
Well, the 16k for the scabbard are certainly cheaper than putting Keen on a +5 weapon...

Thomas
2007-02-03, 06:05 PM
But it doesnt stack with Improved Crit... since the spell doesnt, and the scabbard simply casts the spell... for less than 3 hours a day. Nifty, but not a breakthrough.

Nothing stacks with Improved Critical. In 3.5, critical range expansions just don't stack.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-03, 06:19 PM
Get Improved Critical. You can save money if you don't need to make your weapons keen.

Improved Critical: Any weapon (the one selected) that you use, will have a better threat range.
Keen: This weapon, for any person that wields the enchanted weapon, will have a better threat range.

Rumda
2007-02-03, 06:31 PM
Convinvce your dm to let them stack then get a +x keen elemental burst rapier for 1d6+d10 damage against everything most of the time

Thomas
2007-02-03, 07:28 PM
That's pretty pointless.

If they stacked, you should get Improved Critical (scythe), a keen scythe, and Power Attack.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-03, 08:05 PM
As far as I know keen is a weapon property, not a feat (unless it's in one of the splat books that I haven't seen). So to answer your question take improved crit., then get the +1 enhancement and you have both.

Khantalas
2007-02-03, 08:48 PM
As far as I know keen is a weapon property, not a feat (unless it's in one of the splat books that I haven't seen). So to answer your question take improved crit., then get the +1 enhancement and you have both.

Huh? What? Why would you wanna have both, when they clearly don't stack as mentioned?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-03, 09:14 PM
And kindly don't harp about game balance. Please.
Indeed.

In addition to the relatively low damage on most high-threat-range items, consider the fact that a 12-20 threat range is useless if you can only hit on a 19 or 20. It is for this reason weapons with larger multipliers are better than weapons with larger ranges in 3.5.

grinner666
2007-02-03, 09:23 PM
Nothing stacks with Improved Critical. In 3.5, critical range expansions just don't stack.

Yeah, we know. Read the above house rules posts. But even in 3.0 a keen enhancement wouldn't've stacked with another keen enhancement.

Again, I prefer to take the feat and spend my gold on multiple elemental damage enhancements (or with an already-high-threat-range weapon, multiple elemental burst enhancements). But with the current rules it's pretty much a matter of choice.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-03, 09:24 PM
As long as we don't go back to the vorpal keen bladed gauntlet weapon masters of 3.0


"Yes, I have a 7-20 critical range, with x3 criticals, and heads roll on criticals.... what?"

Edit: Whoops, forgot gauntlets have 17-20, not 18-20

Khantalas
2007-02-03, 09:27 PM
"Yes, I have a 10-20 critical range, with x3 criticals, and heads roll on criticals.... what?"

Except that, I don't think any combination of feats, enhancements ands stuff can get a threat range of 10-20, because 11 is a prime number. You'd be hard pressed to find 11 threat range increasing effects that stack.

Rigeld2
2007-02-03, 09:33 PM
17-20 base, keen makes it 14-20, imp crit makes it 11-20, disciple of dispater makes it 10 (9 eventualy).

edit: that was 3.0, hence heads rolling on crits.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-03, 09:33 PM
I like improved critical, but it only seems necessary if you're in the upper levels and just honestly don't have any better feat to work towards. It effectively means you can use an extra +1 on every weapon you make on whatever enchantment you like. At lower levels, that's not really that great, but at higher levels (given that you've, again, exhausted all the better feats for your build) it's a pretty good investment.

In a low-magic campaign, get it immediately for anything with a wide threat range.

Khantalas
2007-02-03, 09:40 PM
17-20 base, keen makes it 14-20, imp crit makes it 11-20, disciple of dispater makes it 10 (9 eventualy).

Err... nitpicker-y. If you have 17-20 base, you have 4 point threat range, so keen makes it 13-20 and Improved Critical makes it 9-20. Disciple of Dispater may bring it to 7.

Rigeld2
2007-02-03, 11:24 PM
Meh, I cant add. 18-20 base makes it work tho.

LotharBot
2007-02-04, 07:15 PM
The main consideration is your character type and weapon.

A rogue wielding a rapier early game? I wouldn't take either. You don't have feats to burn, and you'll do better with some elemental damage (+d6 almost every attack) than extra criticals (+d6+strength on occasional attacks.)

A fighter wielding a big smashy weapon like a greataxe or falchion? Take improved crit. You've got plenty of feats, and d12+1.5xstrength is great to get x3 on occasion.

A barbarian wielding a big smasy weapon? Take keen, and use your feats for other stuff. You can always take improved crit later in the game and buy a different weapon.

Basically... take the feat if you think you can spare it AND you think the extra criticals are actually worthwhile. Take the "keen" property if you don't have feats to spare but the extra crits are still worthwhile. Don't take either if the extra crits are only going to give you +d6 damage anyway; take elemental damage or some other property instead.

Rebonack
2007-02-04, 08:00 PM
Vorpal only triggers on a confirmed natural 20...

*cough*

I find Valorous to be a much more useful weapon attribute than Keen. Times two damage on charges? And it works on anything since it isn't precision damage? Sounds good to me.

That said, whether you choose Keen or Improved Critical depends on how many feats you have to burn. Lots of feats? Get improved crit. Few feats? Get Keen.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-04, 10:05 PM
The 7-20 vorpal thing was back in 3.0.

The vorpal triggered on a critical, which, as visible, had some minor issues...

Person_Man
2007-02-05, 02:05 PM
It depends on your build. At low levels, the elemental damage is better. At high levels when your Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack kicks in, Keen is better.

Improved Critical is almost never a good idea. Feats are too important, and Keen is too cheap. The exception is when you're playing a high level Psychic Weapon Master, who can end up getting a crit on 50% of their hits.

LotharBot
2007-02-05, 02:41 PM
At high levels when your Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack kicks in, Keen is better.

Improved Critical is almost never a good idea. Feats are too important, and Keen is too cheap.

You can get an awful lot of feats as a fighter. And sometimes, you just have a build where, for whatever reason, you have a feat to burn. At high levels when your power attack / shock trooper / leap attack kicks in, there's a good chance you'll have more feats than you know what to do with.

And, as mentioned before, there's no reason to take either if you're a rogue wielding a rapier for d6+1+Xd6 sneak attack, because you only end up doubling the d6+1. Much better to get an extra d6 elemental damage every attack.

Person_Man
2007-02-05, 04:57 PM
You can get an awful lot of feats as a fighter. And sometimes, you just have a build where, for whatever reason, you have a feat to burn. At high levels when your power attack / shock trooper / leap attack kicks in, there's a good chance you'll have more feats than you know what to do with.

A feat to burn? Seriously? There's a metric ton of feats better then Improved Critical, many of them part of elaborate feat combo's that only Fighters can realistically pull off due to pre-reqs.

Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Shock Trooper, Pushback, Combat Brute, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Evasive Reflexes, Sidestep Charge, Hold the Line, Combat Reflexes, plus cool racial feats like Knockback, Headlong Rush, or Catfolk Pounce - and that's just off the top of my head.

There are numerous spells and magic items that grant Keen. So unless you're in an obscenely magic poor campaign, there's really no reason to waste a feat.

LotharBot
2007-02-05, 05:35 PM
Depends on the rulebooks you use, I suspect, which is another thing we didn't get from the OP. I'm only familiar with about half of the feats you listed there.

Myatar_Panwar
2007-02-05, 05:44 PM
I've never really seen critical's as that good anyway. I mean you only double the dice damage (its a shame you dont get to double other factors like str). Lets say you have a +1 keen rapier. Theres a 25% chance you'll get a crit with that baby. And lets say that when you do it, you get lucky and roll a 6 for base damage. Ok so big deal, you deal an extra 6 damage. But how ofen is that going to happen? I mean, you always do extra damage with a flaming sword (or a frost or shock sword).

Sorry bout' that. Rants over.

LotharBot
2007-02-05, 06:02 PM
you only double the dice damage (its a shame you dont get to double other factors like str).

Bonus dice (from sneak attack, elemental damage, etc.) aren't multiplied, but direct modifiers (strength, weapon enchantment, weapon specialization, power attack, etc.) are.

The PHB is unclear about this -- on pages 114 and 140, it says extra damage is not multiplied (giving the examples of sneak attack and elemental damage), but in the glossary on page 306, it clarifies by saying extra damage dice are not multiplied. And the DMG, page 26, explains that crits multiply "all damage, rather than just the die roll" in order to make them significant at higher levels -- and it specifically states that strength bonus is multiplied.

That makes criticals a bit more important.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-05, 06:08 PM
Indeed.

For example, you make a sneak attack that crits for 2x damage.

Your base damage was 1d8 (longsword) +8 (18 str, -4 power attack) + 3d6 (sneak attack). 1d8+8 + 3d6. Your crit does 2d8+16 + 3d6.

Magi_Ring_O
2007-02-05, 06:24 PM
Keen is only really useful on an elemental burst weapon. Otherwise, the feat will give you the extra +1 to spend.

Rigeld2
2007-02-05, 09:16 PM
I've never really seen critical's as that good anyway. I mean you only double the dice damage (its a shame you dont get to double other factors like str). Lets say you have a +1 keen rapier. Theres a 25% chance you'll get a crit with that baby. And lets say that when you do it, you get lucky and roll a 6 for base damage. Ok so big deal, you deal an extra 6 damage. But how ofen is that going to happen? I mean, you always do extra damage with a flaming sword (or a frost or shock sword).

Sorry bout' that. Rants over.
Besides what others have pointed out, you dont just straight double the damage. You roll another set of damage, minus extra dice.

Person_Man
2007-02-06, 12:58 AM
Depends on the rulebooks you use, I suspect, which is another thing we didn't get from the OP. I'm only familiar with about half of the feats you listed there.


Yeah, some of these are from obscure sources. But all of them can be found online if you know where to look (though I've only linked the SRD ones).

Leap Attack: Comp Warrior, increase Power Attack damage on a charge.

Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html): Free Trip attempt when you deal 10+ damage.

Shock Trooper: Comp Warrior, Switch Power Attack Penalty to AC instead of BAB on a charge, allows you to direct a Bull Rush left or right for each square you push back, and allows a free Trip attempt when you Bull Rush an enemy into another enemy square.

Pushback: Miniatures Handbook, free 5' Bull Rush attempt on successful hit once per round.

Combat Brute: Free attack after successful Sunder, increased Power Attack damage on the round afer a successful charge.

Karmic Strike: Comp War, grants AoO on anyone that hits you in melee.

Robilar's Gambit: PHBII, grants AoO each time someone tries to hit you in melee.

Evasive Reflexes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060706a): Tome of Battle, take a 5' step instead of AoO.

Sidestep Charge (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#sidestep-charge): +4 AC vs. Charge, get AoO if enemy charges you and misses.

Hold the Line (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html): Free AoO against anyone who charges you, resolved before they charge you.

Battle Jump: Unapproachable East, double damage on a charge when you drop from at least 5 feet above your enemy (get a Ring of Improved Jumping).

Knockback: Goliath, Races of Stone, free Bull Rush with every successful hit (like Pushback, only much better).

Headlong Rush: Orcish blood, Races of Faerun, double damage on charge, but provoke AoO from everyone who threatens you.

Catfolk Pounce: Catfolk, Races of the Wild, full attack on charge.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-06, 01:04 AM
Huh? What? Why would you wanna have both, when they clearly don't stack as mentioned?


duly noted. My guess is it was late when I made the post in the first place, and I tend not to think extremely clear when it gets that late. Personally, I would opt for keen. Why waste a feat when you can accomplish what you want in other ways.

Darrin
2007-02-06, 08:27 AM
Okay, looks like everyone is a little divided on the improved critical vs. keen thing. My other question is, if I decided that keen was better, how does a +1 keen rapier compare with, say, a +1 shocking rapier? Or, how does a +1 keen, shocking rapier compare with a +1 shocking, flaming rapier?

Take Improved Critical as a feat, and get the shocking rapier.

* Improved Critical can't be dispelled, and it will work on all rapiers for the character's lifetime. If your current rapier gets lost/broken/disjunctioned, you'll have to pay for keen again. Later on, when you add more enchantments to your rapier, you'll be able to squeeze more effects into the +10 limit.

* Keen is only going to work at best 30% of the time (a certain portion of that 30% will fail to confirm). Shocking damage works 100% every time you hit (unless the target has DR or some kind of energy protection, and even then it still counts for overcoming it). A shocking/flaming weapon still works 100% of the time, while keen/shocking is going to effectively be just the same as a shocking weapon at least 70% or more.

* There are some Classes/PrCs/Feats that allow you to transfer or apply Improved Crit to multiple weapons. Just one level of Warblade, for example, would give you Weapon Aptitude, and you could switch Improved Crit to *any* weapon with 1 hour of practice. And I think there's something in PHBII to apply Improved Crit to a group of weapons.

* If you go TWF + Oversize TWF, you don't have to pay for Keen twice.

The White Knight
2007-02-06, 09:19 AM
We house-ruled at one point that imp crit and keen stacked for the reason that keen is an improvement on the weapon and that imp crit is an improvement on your use of the weapon. So, yeah, your keen rapier on which you have placed improved critical has a 12-20 crit range. That's pretty smoking. So, if you can convince the DM, get BOTH.

Our DM houseruled this into a game once, and it was terrible. We had a fighter/psion with mindfeeder (before errata), keen, and imp. crit. running around with infinite power points all the livelong day. He was an Elan too, so those power points were almost as good as double their weight in hit points from time to time. And then there was our half-dragon weaponmaster (another 3.0 allowance) who was rolling (increased multiplier, increased threat range) criticals while power attacking with his keen + imp. crit. somethingorother+1000000. These two dispatched an ancient blue dragon in one and a half rounds. The sorceror, meanwhile, got to cast one spell, for little to no relative effect. Don't break your game - don't ask for these kinds of things.

the_tick_rules
2007-02-06, 10:33 AM
well it depends on your feats choice vs. your availability of magical enhancement. If your a fighter and have feats to spare why not improved crit since it would apply to all of that weapon type and not just that one blade. but if your a non fighter and don't have feats coming out all holes keen may be the way to go.

Fizban
2007-02-06, 08:30 PM
The math has been done, in general, crits lose to straight damage when full attacks are available. Even if improved crit and keen stack they only come even. To make a crit monkey work, it would have to deal a truly massive amount of extra damage on a crit, and do it often enough to make up for the lack of damage on every normal hit. The feat that lets you add sneak attack damage on a crit would be a good choice.

Improved crit or Keen? I choose Dolorous Blow. Spell compendium, 1 min/level, 3rd level spell, doubles threat range and automatically confirms all crits. Slap that on your crit weapon of choice and call it good.

Fat Daddy
2007-02-06, 10:22 PM
I would think that keen is better. If you take the feat, you are only doubling the *chance* of a critical. So instead of 1/20 threats, you get 1/10. Its nice, but most people take feats to do something a whole lot more important than just up their damage. (battlefield control, metamagic, PrC qualifing, etc, etc.., all of it can effect the game even when you aren't rolling a dice and hoping to hit a monster) And as many have pointed out, there are lots of spells that will do this for you, as well as just puttin a few gp down for it too.
But if you take imp Crit on a 19-20 threat weapon it becomes a 17-20 threat weapon taking your crit chances from 1/10 to 1/5 and that is worth a feat slot IMO.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-06, 10:38 PM
But if you take imp Crit on a 19-20 threat weapon it becomes a 17-20 threat weapon taking your crit chances from 1/10 to 1/5 and that is worth a feat slot IMO.
Well, that's your chance for a threat. Still have to confirm.

And that's assuming you normally hit on a 17. Your chances for a threat are no better than before if it's against an opponent that can only be hit on a 19 or 20.

Of course, if you're the party's melee type, and you can only hit a particular beastie on a 19 or 20, you're in sorry shape anyway...

It's just that from a purely mathematical damage-dealing standpoint, you're better off going for a higher multiplier than threat, largely on account of those times you can't make full use of the range. Also, it has been pointed out that large threat range weapons tend to have less base damage anyway (compare Greataxe to Falchion).

Strip away that math, and there are some fine conceptual reasons for Improved Critical.

But then, it still is cheaper to pay money for a special weapon than it is to use a feat.

grinner666
2007-02-07, 12:44 AM
But then, it still is cheaper to pay money for a special weapon than it is to use a feat.

Again, it depends on your focus. When your +whatever whatever-burst keen rapier has had all its enchantments nullified by Dispel Magic or an Antimagic Field, the feat will still serve you. If you're counting on more critical hits, the feat is generally the way to go.

And if you're not counting on more critical hits but still want more, the feat is still the way to go, for reasons several here (me included) have outlined before: an extra d6 with every (depending on the monster) hit for the cost of a +1 enchantment is worth far more than doubling the crit chance.

But again, that changes if the chances stack. THEN you should get both if you can. :belkar:

Terraneaux
2007-02-07, 01:27 AM
Keen or Improved Critical is a personal choice. Personally, I prefer keen because I usually find feats in shorter supply than gold. This may not be the case in your campaign though.

However, keen is still good, especially when combined with an 18-20 weapon (scimitar, rapier, falchion) and the Maiming weapon property from the Miniatures Handbook. It changes say, a scimitar's crit rating to a d4, which is essentially a 2.5. Thats like having a 12-20 crit range, statistically identical, in fact.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-07, 10:15 AM
Again, it depends on your focus. When your +whatever whatever-burst keen rapier has had all its enchantments nullified by Dispel Magic or an Antimagic Field, the feat will still serve you.
But how often does that actually happen? Not particularly often, right? Only when fighting spellcasters with too many dispel magic's and not enough other options available (really, for effective use, I'd rather take the 5 buffs directly on the caster down for good rather than remove the benefit of one weapon for 2 or 3 rounds) or those that can afford having their own spells and effects negated (antimagic fields are centered on the caster).

Meanwhile, you're likely doing everything in your power to use whatever feat you chose in place of Improved Critical at least once a session.


And if you're not counting on more critical hits but still want more, the feat is still the way to go, for reasons several here (me included) have outlined before: an extra d6 with every (depending on the monster) hit for the cost of a +1 enchantment is worth far more than doubling the crit chance.
And any number of other feat benefits are worth more than the threat range as well. Expanded threat ranges just aren't all that good.

But the issue really is that you can always buy a more expensive weapon. You can't buy a feat. And if you decide you got the wrong item, regretting your choice, you can always sell your current item and buy a new one. Barring PH2, you cannot do the same with a feat.

(Also note that if you do go with Improved Critical and a flaming/shocking/frost/whatever weapon combination, you aren't getting the full benefit out of your precious feat slot. The extra 1d6 damage gains no benefit. You'd want to get a slightly pricier elemental burst weapon instead.)