When PC's think they're invincible . . .

[Chester]

Hello again, everyone!

I'm wondering how some of the DM's around here deal with PC's who get cocky?

For example: sometimes, characters get a little too comfortable for their own good. They've been triumphant in battle time and again, or perhaps the party survived a rather challenging encounter. Therefore, the characters think that they're invincible; they can say what they want whenever they want to NPC's, perhaps.

Now, nobody wants to be the DM who "punishes" a player or comes across as vindictive, but what do you guys do when players start "talking smack" to powerful people?

One particular party member threatened a wizard / potential employer (long story, the player is rather suspicious of his motives). Now, I could have ransacked the party right then and there. Instead, I had the guards escort the player out, while the rest of the party profusely apologized.

How would you deal with it? I plan to make it clear that from now on, whenever the party is dealing with NPC's, what they say or do really matters. If they openly challenge someone, that NPC will respond accordingly.

TM, DR: What would you do?

[hymer]

I would have handled it the same way, except I might have had the guards escort the offending PC out and let the others have a chance to repair the situation. That would depend on the exact circumstances.
Someone with enough power to blow the party away doesn't need to, but also will feel no need to lend ear to such nonsense or waste their time with lowlife with no sense of class distinction or decent behaviour. (My campaign societies are usually very class conscious.)
The main consequence of alienating powerful NPCs should be social and/or political. The PC in question will lose credibility for this sort of behaviour (and possibly he could get arrested if threats are illegal), and will have to mind his manners in the future to overcome his self-made problem.

[Chester]

I would have handled it the same way, except I might have had the guards escort the offending PC out and let the others have a chance to repair the situation. That would depend on the exact circumstances.
Someone with enough power to blow the party away doesn't need to, but also will fell no need to lend ear to such nonsense or waste their time with lowlife with no sense of class distinction or decent behaviour. (My campaign societies are usually very class conscious.)
The main consequence of alienating powerful NPCs should be social and/or political. The PC in question will lose credibility for this sort of behaviour (and possibly he could get arrested if threats are illegal), and will have to mind his manners in the future to overcome his self-made problem.

Yeah, the other PC's handled it. I'm planning to have the other PC face social repercussions.

I just anticipate more of this. They're about to face someone / something that can smack them around quite a bit, depending on how "mouthy" they get. I anticipate that the party will want the one guy to keep his mouth shut.

[hymer]

Yeah, the other PC's handled it.

Oh, right. I read 'player' as 'party'.

[Passer-by]

If you make a villain that is not supposed to be fought yet (that is, he is not an encounter for the party, at least not for now) meet the party, consquences will come by themselves. The player will think the guy is there so he can be killed, and will fight, and lose. If the other players advised not to fight, he won't blame you (the others saw what your intention when introducing this character was and he didn't), and he won't feel so confident in your campaign world, but feel the threats that should naturally surround any character in any campaign world. There must always be a balance: Players shouldn't feel you are out to get them, nor feel you are afraid of making actually threatening encounters.

I'm pretty sure you already thought of this, but I really think it's a sensible solution.

[Slipperychicken]

For example: sometimes, characters get a little too comfortable for their own good. They've been triumphant in battle time and again, or perhaps the party survived a rather challenging encounter. Therefore, the characters think that they're invincible; they can say what they want whenever they want to NPC's, perhaps.

Make fights hard enough that the PCs don't breeze through them? Make it obvious that the PCs don't get plot armor?

[jedipotter]

Hello again, everyone!

I'm wondering how some of the DM's around here deal with PC's who get cocky?



Take them down a peg. You don't need to toss like a dozen dragons at them, but just have them loose. It is easy enough to just make encounters tough.

And all NPC interactions should count. Why would they not? Having the guards escort characters out is fine.

[Kazudo]

If players are talking poorly to people of status or inherent power, then it's hardly a punishment for that NPC to act in character.

I had a group once get so cocky that they went to the Count landowner(!!!) of the small country they lived in, did their adventuring, what have you, and started making groundless accusations of murder (and a few IC remarks about his mother) in front of open court.

Said Count landowner began ruining their lives (in the way one would) by doing little things like denying them access to mines, exiling some of their most favored contacts, and revoking their permit to own land (giving their hideout to someone else).

They thought he was being evil, so they attempted to assassinate him. This put a bounty on their heads and had mercenaries constantly looking for them.

It made for a good plot point. Inevitably, though, because of some cocky actions by the party, they ended up with half the party dead (over the span of a few in-game months), and it only ended when they showed up and made a formal apology.

They were jailed and tortured in the dungeon for a few months and emerged, lesson learned.

[Grollub]

Have them encounter an NPC BBEG Witch , not only do you get to kill them for being "stupid" but cackle while doing so !!! :smallcool:

[Parvum]

Inexpert advice?

Is this NPC evil? Hire high level assassins to cut out this party member's tongue, and kill or capture anyone who can cast Regenerate.
If you don't want to gimp the party member (which, I think, would send a pretty clear message) you could abduct someone or something the player has grown attached to (NPC, item, animal companion or familiar) and destroy it.

Is the NPC neutral? See the Bureaucrat solution of Kazudo's Count, above.

Is the PC good? Then have some fun with magic curses and itching powder. A reverse Midas touch where gold that he touches turns to dirt when he holds it, or just a few young rust monsters in his bags when he goes to sleep. Pinnochio nose-growing curse when he Bluffs, or something that turns him Tiny when he uses Intimidate. Or a good old Baleful Polymorph. Something nonlethal, and probably better if it doesn't come up in combat much. It's not very Good if the player gets killed because of it. But still something punishing.

Basically, it comes down to it being a consequence of the player's own actions. He doesn't get swallowed whole by a Tyrannosaurus Rex because he was rude- he gets swallowed by a Tyrannosaurus Rex because he was rude to a close friend of a high level druid. The key is to remind the PCs that, while they are not run of the mill, they are not the only people in the world with class levels. And if they can go on an adventure to slay rogue villains, other high level non-player characters can do it to them.

[Arbane]

Have them encounter an NPC BBEG Witch , not only do you get to kill them for being "stupid" but cackle while doing so !!! :smallcool:

If a witch lets them get away with ONLY dying, you're doing it wrong.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Barred from a town, prices get quadrupled, banishment from the kingdom, curses and geas are fun too. Curse of obnoxious BO and terrible halitosis, geas kiss every goat in town. Oh, wait, they insult a high-member of the Thieves Guild and are now primary targets of every pickpocket in the guild. Insult a bard and are now the subject of lampoon and satire everywhere they go.

I could really enjoy myself at a character's expense without ever doing a single HP of damage.

[Lightlawbliss]

the worse punishment in existence in a group that really gets in character: the traveling bards have heard the story and enjoy repeating it when the PCs can hear them followed by asking if that story was about them.

[Dorian Gray]

Be careful sending an encounter you feel is too strong at the party. Yes, it often works, but you'd be surprised how deadly pcs can get. I remember one time a DM had a BBEG appear to threaten us early in the campaign, and I, not knowing who he was, threw out a greater arcane fusioned orb of force+twin orb of force. That campaign ended early.

[Raven777]

What kind of party stands by when one of their own is escorted outside by uppity NPCs? Real adventurers present a unified front and bring down the whole tower!

[Calen]

What kind of party stands by when one of their own is escorted outside by uppity NPCs? Real adventurers present a unified front and bring down the whole tower!

Smart players don't. Or rather smart IC players. Assassin jumps the crazy old guy that is capable of seriously damaging the party? Wizard casts sleep on assassin.

[Envyus]

Throw Charon at them. He is utterly unbeatable. He is a CR 22 Yugoloth and when he is killed he respawns at the river styx the next day and also advances his hit die by 2 (Along with everything else he gets out of new hit die). He won't stop attacking the people who slew him until he kills them and takes their souls or they convince him to leave them alone. (Which is not going to be cheap.) He also has no cap on his power so he can keep the fight up forever if needed. (Also he knows blasphemy so eventually he will be able to kill his opponents no save no matter how strong they are.)

[Mootsmcboots]

So here's something I swiped from a Conan book, one of the later Howard installments.

So have the town leaders/Wizard whatever act as if they want nothing more than the party to leave after the threat. Heck, they'll even pay them to leave and not come back for an extended period. They could even come off as slightly fearful.

Pay them in a statuette, or a specific bag of coin, or valuable item, and curse it.

The Conan situation was very similar. Except the guy who was paying him, was sending him on a job, partially paid upfront. Over a few days the cursed coinage sapped Conan's strength, and the guy who hired him had a group of guys waiting for him a few days ride outside of town to murder him after the coinage took it's toll, as always though, Conan murders the entire group.

Dunno why, but it's been one of my favourite ploys from Conan books, could be a nice subtle way to remind a player that how he interacts with an NPC has consequences, and that NPCs have motivations of their own, and will act accordingly.

You could do this without even having him enter an encounter afterwards. As days pass, while he has the cursed item, stats could be affected. It could be a gradual reduction of a stat, or drains HP, or it inflicts a random status effect each day. And so that it's not obvious that the effect comes from an item he just got, it could have a timer, a few days pass before it starts effecting him.

Or! Make it a bracelet/gloves etc, but the first time he sleeps with the item on it makes his hand wither and fall off! To not put him at a disadvantage you could give him an item that grants him an incorporeal ghost hand(This is stolen from a dragonlance book)....eventually. Let him stew on getting Jamie Lannistered for a bit first.

Then let them return to town before he gets the ghost hand! And have the town leaders/wizard greet them and have him go to shake his hand....HAH.

Boy, that escalated quickly.

[Togo]

I base rewards for missions on how well the PCs get on with the local power structure. If they complete the mission, they get paid. Maybe late, but they get paid. If they're in good with a local noble, church, theives guild, merchant house or group of spellcasters, they may also get favours and/or magic item access. They don't end up with any more money, but they get more and better options to spend it, depending on how well regarded they are.

[Azoth]

Personally, when my players reach that level of ego I take them down a few pegs in one go. Set up the next campaign leg to involve a temple, cave network, or some other large structure that can be easily sealed at least temporarily. Then I pick a monster that can be easily found in that area that is a good many CR lower than my party's ECL. The final touch is to apply a generous amount of Tucker's Kobold's syndrome to them.

Nothing funnier than coming at your party with something akin to Tucker's Storm Giants and their Orc slaves! Sure you can't be as trap heavy or use spacing to irritate them, but apply heavy amounts of rocks falling, preset landslides, sundered stone walkways, night raids, and more...just watch them scream in anger and frustration that the horde won't die and is killing them slowly.

The two worst were akin to Tucker's wildlings (bassically tribal system in a jungle) and Tucker's assassins (the party tried to clear them out in their guild hall). Both nearly resulted in TPKs that were stalled off by the PCs begging mercy and paying tribute to leave with their lives.

[DarkSonic1337]

Throw Charon at them. He is utterly unbeatable. He is a CR 22 Yugoloth and when he is killed he respawns at the river styx the next day and also advances his hit die by 2 (Along with everything else he gets out of new hit die). He won't stop attacking the people who slew him until he kills them and takes their souls or they convince him to leave them alone. (Which is not going to be cheap.) He also has no cap on his power so he can keep the fight up forever if needed. (Also he knows blasphemy so eventually he will be able to kill his opponents no save no matter how strong they are.)

Kill him with a Thinaun weapon, storing his soul inside.

Flesh to Stone, Flesh to Ice, Temporal Stasis , Imprisonment, Baleful Polymorph, or any number of things that can stop a threat without actually killing it. If you send him against a 17th or higher level party and they survive once they should be able to identify what they just fought and prepare countermeasures to be able to deal with it quite handily.

[Curmudgeon]

Be careful sending an encounter you feel is too strong at the party. Yes, it often works, but you'd be surprised how deadly pcs can get.
There's no upper limit for how Overpowering (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 49) an encounter can be, and those are supposed to represent fully 5% of all encounters (so roughly one every 1½ levels, using standard experience rates). The DMG lists "EL 5+ higher than party level", but the emphasis should be on the + rather than the 5. If every Overpowering encounter is 10-15 EL higher than the party's level, that's still following the RAW.

[Coidzor]

Hello again, everyone!

I'm wondering how some of the DM's around here deal with PC's who get cocky?

For example: sometimes, characters get a little too comfortable for their own good. They've been triumphant in battle time and again, or perhaps the party survived a rather challenging encounter. Therefore, the characters think that they're invincible; they can say what they want whenever they want to NPC's, perhaps.

Be better at combat in order to actually challenge the party, I'd imagine. If they can't do it on their own, asking for help is acceptable and there are many people who will happily help you improve your monster game.

Or do you mean the player is using NPCs as a proxy to be verbally abusive to you, the DM? Because that's not a problem you address in game.


Now, nobody wants to be the DM who "punishes" a player or comes across as vindictive, but what do you guys do when players start "talking smack" to powerful people?

One particular party member threatened a wizard / potential employer (long story, the player is rather suspicious of his motives). Now, I could have ransacked the party right then and there. Instead, I had the guards escort the player out, while the rest of the party profusely apologized.

How would you deal with it? I plan to make it clear that from now on, whenever the party is dealing with NPC's, what they say or do really matters. If they openly challenge someone, that NPC will respond accordingly.

TM, DR: What would you do?

Clearly your players needed to actually hash out what their course of action was beforehand rather than have such a break in aims when it comes to what was apparently an obvious quest-giver given how the rest of the players got down on their knees before him.

Either he needs to convince the others to be suspicious of the NPC and decide whether they're going to refuse to work with him or go along with it with an eye to stab him in the back/blackmail material/insurance against getting stabbed in the back themselves or he needs to go along with the rest of the party if they're not convinced. Or actually successfully put the issue to rest with however he confronts the NPC. Or else he needs to retire the PC and bring in another PC that would be willing to work with this NPC Questgiver.

Or you may need to discuss with your players whether there's some dissatisfaction with having obvious quest-giver NPCs in your games and if they want something different but were too cowed to say so.

But, really, it sounds like you need to have a talk with your players, especially the one who caused that scene, in order to better understand the dynamic at play.


If a witch lets them get away with ONLY dying, you're doing it wrong.

No, that's DMing out of spite. :smalltongue:

You reach that point and sitting down for real talk with your group doesn't resolve it, it's time to take a break from DMing.


Smart players don't. Or rather smart IC players. Assassin jumps the crazy old guy that is capable of seriously damaging the party? Wizard casts sleep on assassin.

Eh, you're immune to Sleep once you're high enough level to PrC into Assassin, so the Wizard should have much more potent spells available if he's even equal level to the party.


If you don't want to gimp the party member (which, I think, would send a pretty clear message) you could abduct someone or something the player has grown attached to (NPC, item, animal companion or familiar) and destroy it.

I believe all that would accomplish would be teaching your players to never have attachments in-game. Which is the opposite of what you'd want to do if your goal is to get them away from the murderhobo mentality. :smalltongue:


There's no upper limit for how Overpowering (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 49) an encounter can be, and those are supposed to represent fully 5% of all encounters (so roughly one every 1½ levels, using standard experience rates). The DMG lists "EL 5+ higher than party level", but the emphasis should be on the + rather than the 5. If every Overpowering encounter is 10-15 EL higher than the party's level, that's still following the RAW.

Yes, but then there's no question that the DM was doing it out of spite if they pull a non sequitur Balor out of their ass. :smalltongue: Gotta at least keep some verisimilitude if you're going to try to resolve it in game. Otherwise, why not treat the players like people and talk to them?

[Envyus]

Kill him with a Thinaun weapon, storing his soul inside.

Flesh to Stone, Flesh to Ice, Temporal Stasis , Imprisonment, Baleful Polymorph, or any number of things that can stop a threat without actually killing it. If you send him against a 17th or higher level party and they survive once they should be able to identify what they just fought and prepare countermeasures to be able to deal with it quite handily.


When he dies or something like this happens he turns into a puddle of water before respawning a day later at the river styx. Well actually to be correct he respawns back to life the second that happens he just can't go back to the plane were he was beaten for a day. Also Charon will just get stronger no upper limit on how strong he can become every time he is beaten and every time is beaten he more or less levels up twice.

[Coidzor]

When he dies or something like this happens he turns into a puddle of water before respawning a day later at the river styx. Well actually to be correct he respawns back to life the second that happens he just can't go back to the plane were he was beaten for a day. Also Charon will just get stronger no upper limit on how strong he can become every time he is beaten and every time is beaten he more or less levels up twice.

So you're saying that the PCs can just bargain with Charon to give him an arbitrarily large army of himselves?

Oy Gevalt. :smalleek:

Imagine the Charons getting into a dispute about which is the real Charon with the predictable result of fratri-sui-cide and a gaggle of increasingly more powerful Charons duking it out with other Charons. :smallamused:

[hemming]

I think you are handling the problem appropriately

I've had this situation come up a few times - as long as the PCs have a clear understanding of the power dynamics at play, it is fair to appropriately reinforce those power dynamics

This isn't being vindictive

IMO - it sounds like you are trying to place nice by making the consequences as lenient as possible (which I think is fair to the players)

I had a PC recently violate a law she knew was typically punishable by death, but I only cut off her hand - it was a heat of the moment kind of decision on her part, but she knew the laws of the community. It was DM intervention her existing standing in the community that saved her. For a major repercussion like this, I talk to the player before the session to make sure they do not feel I'm being vindictive or making a decision that is going to really upset them.

Edit: I also did not cut off her hand by fiat - she chose to accept the verdict over the consequences of fleeing or fighting

[HeyThereImBear]

Create sorcerer of redic power,

apply chosen of bane, dreadwraith sovereign, quickling

take blood casting feats,

cast regeneration, time stop,

watch them cry.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Think about it from the NPC's perspective. Does he gain anything by killing this guy? Does he throw every low-level churl who insults him in the dungeon? Does he want/enjoy a reputation for being an *******? I mean I don't know the specifics, but if a PC tries to pick a fight with an NPC who's way out of their league (and it threatened to knock the campaign wildly off-course) I'd just have the NPC brush him off like the gnat he is. Getting mad over mere words is for lesser people, not 16th level wizards who own their own castle and get served breakfast in bed every morning, or whatever.

My campaign world isn't there for me to rub my hands over and show my players like it's a privilege for them to set foot in it. It's there for my players to have fun in. If they want to knock it over and wreck up the joint, good for them.

[gadren]

There's no upper limit for how Overpowering (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 49) an encounter can be, and those are supposed to represent fully 5% of all encounters (so roughly one every 1½ levels, using standard experience rates). The DMG lists "EL 5+ higher than party level", but the emphasis should be on the + rather than the 5. If every Overpowering encounter is 10-15 EL higher than the party's level, that's still following the RAW.

Sometimes PCs just get lucky. I had one Star Wars d20 game come to a halt when a level 5 tech specialist shot a level 20 Emperor Palpatine with a turbolaser. Nat 20 to hit, nat 20 to confirm. BBEG dead.

[AlanBruce]

I do question many players and the motives behind their pcs.

Take for eaxample, a spelltheif awhile back in a game I was DMing.

The spellthief, along with the party, were fairly high level (11ish).

There were many quests for them to do, none of which had a time limit of sorts, so they had ample time to prepare.

Not the spellthief.

He wanted to rob the duke blind. Mind you, a duke who had given them titles in an earlier arc for saving his life in a botched assassination attempt. The party's cleric had advised the duke to seek aid from the town churches and have some paladins and clerics in his castle for extra protection, just in case.

The spellthief, with his trusty ring of blinking, bypasses security and reaches the duke's room while he sleeps and proceeds to bag everything he can.

That's when he decides to check for secret doors and, of course, finds one.

The duke's vault.

A gold laden chamber with weapons. Ancient family and church relics. Jewels of who knows what power and market price. Suits of armor from his ancestors brought back from distant battles from the Age of Myth...

There was also an Astral deva in the room, as a guard called forth by the church of Pelor to keep many of the relics safe.

The spellthief tries to bluff the angel.

No dice.

The angel tells the ST to leave, this is an unathorized area.

ST thinks for a few seconds on what to answer, activates his anklets and begins stabbing the angel.

Cue in lengthy battle with lucky rolls for the angle, bypassing blink's miss chance, until the ST drops him to -1.

The commotion drew in the duke in his PJ's and a fellow npc cleric who was friends to the party.

Awkward moment as they catch the ST retrieving bloody daggers from the body of the fallen angel.

What does our hero do? Hides, of course...and continues bagging stolen goods.

The npc cleric heals the angel and he uses his heal SLA to get back up to health, ordering the castle to be in maximum security as he scans for the thief...and finds him.

Cue battle number two, as the ST, clearly losing, disappears through a wall thanks to his blink ring and becomes a fugitive of the Law.

The party, one of which was a church inquisitor, contacts the ST, who is in hiding as the entire duchy and the angel scour each and every nook and cranny, begging him to come out clean and testify, since none could believe he would do such a thing.

The ST does accept and goes to the church of Cuthbert, where he, the npc priest, the duke, and the angel, all point to him as the culprit.

During the trial, the ST interrupts the hearings multiple times, calls the Inquisitor an idiot, questions the lawfulness of the trial.

The party members on the stands facepalm as the judge decides to give the ST one final chance to defend himself.

"You're an idiot."

The judge has had it. He casts Commune and asks the relevant questions in front of everyone.

Surprise, surprise. The ST was found guilty.

The church of pelor wanted to geas him (they called the astral deva to protect the duke's vault)

The duke wanted him dead.

End result: St is killed as he's being moved to the pelorite chapel by a well knwon villain to the party (the ST had alleged she was the one doing all this using illusion magic)

With the ST dead, the church of pelor decides to raise him (with party funds, although the party's inquisitor opposed). St was brought to life and unconcious while Geas was cast on him.

Lesson learned: don't soil where you eat. That was his home town and, because the party had helped the duke, he was merely exiled from the dutchy (something the ST would not pay attention to and return later, only to have a similar scenario unfold)

[icefractal]

Some of the suggestions in here seem a little overboard, if we're just talking about the PCs being insulting. I mean, someone who throws people in a dungeon, or curses them, or gets them declared outlaws because they were rude? That guy is an asshat. Which is fine if he's supposed to be an antagonist, I just hope you didn't want the players to ever like him more than "grudgingly tolerated".

For something like the above - yeah, if you try to steal from your supposed ally's vault, and stab the **** out of an angel in the process, that's not going to have good consequences. So in that case, go for it.

One thing though, about using social power to mess with the PCs - declaring them outlaws, blocking them from trade, whatever. It's entirely possible that the PCs will respond along the lines of "Well, bugger this country then, let's travel somewhere else." Which - makes sense, actually, it's often what people do IRL if they can. But make sure that's an acceptable outcome before you go down this route.

[hemming]

My campaign world isn't there for me to rub my hands over and show my players like it's a privilege for them to set foot in it. It's there for my players to have fun in. If they want to knock it over and wreck up the joint, good for them.

For sure - there is a big difference in trying to have meaningful repercussions for PC actions than trying to punish a player for the way they play the game

[Haggler]

Just a general thought, might not be to helpful but still. Is there anything wrong with letting him be a cocky badass? Does it hinders the adventure and storyline?

I was thinking of Axel Foley, the protagonist from Beverly Hills cop, he confronts the bad guys way before it´s time and tell him he´s putting him down, he is cocky and loudmouthed and extremley sure of himself, he even beats up a henchman in front of the bad guys social peers and then smilingly get led away by the police. Why not let a player be Axel Foley, they would love it.

And from the wizards point of view, I´m sure he have had hundreds of adventurers coming through his doors thinking they are invincible badasses, he should just smile politly and offer then a 10% increase in case they are ready to take payment after compleation, after all if they are as competent as they say there is no risk that they will die without getting paid. And if he´s a bad guy, he will probably have his own plans and don´t make unnesseary enemies of a group of adventurers, those pesky murderhobos can be surprisingly resoursful.

[Chester]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I've enjoyed reading through the ensuing discussion, and I probably should clear a few things up.


Think about it from the NPC's perspective. Does he gain anything by killing this guy?

Maybe. I'll get to that in a minute.


For sure - there is a big difference in trying to have meaningful repercussions for PC actions than trying to punish a player for the way they play the game

Not punishing the player, really. The player / character is quite suspicious of this wizard. (SPOILER: Yes, he should be very suspicious. He's not who he says he is.) The character openly declared his suspicions while the rest of the party facepalmed. So, to get back to Piedmon's question, the wizard may have had reason to silence the group.


Just a general thought, might not be to helpful but still. Is there anything wrong with letting him be a cocky badass? Does it hinders the adventure and storyline?

Not at all. Heck that's part of the fun! The question really is what happens when they get cocky with someone who can actually ransack him and has reason to?

I suppose what I'm really getting at is this: I don't like to be the DM that "kills" characters. I like to give the party challenges that can be overcome by resourcefulness and cooperation, but still give a sense of danger. As long as I keep that fear of character death, though, it can be really fun.

For example: the party was being pursued through the windy corridors of a sealed dungeon by a mummy. The exit was blocked, no way out. They were outmatched at the time. What did they do? The bard cast grease, then they set the grease on fire with the mummy in it. After that, when the mummy was weakened, they led it down a corridor with an unsprung pit trap. Party win. That's what I like to see.

What we have now is a PC openly challenging a higher level NPC that he's not necessarily meant to be able to defeat at this time. Yes, he should be suspicious, but the party (mostly neutral, so there's no real definition of "doing the right thing") is not prepared for this kind of a fight. PC makes threats to a stronger NPC without knowing what kind of foe he'd be dealing with. The party is on the wizard's turf, unprepared for any kind of fight, and one PC is making accusations and threats.

This isn't Axel Foley cracking wise with villains he's ready to face. This is more like the Jackass crew sticking their heads in a crocodile's mouth. It's asking for trouble.

So, to clarify my question: when PC's ask for trouble, do you give it to them?

[MadGreenSon]

So, to clarify my question: when PC's ask for trouble, do you give it to them?

Unquestionably yes. They asked, they want some trouble? Give it to them.

Good DMing is the art of saying Yes to what the players want. In this case, they seem to want trouble, so say yes!

[Azoth]

Let him have it both barrels and smile the whole time!

[It Sat Rap]

Of course the first thing that you could do to rebuke cocky players is to throw a very hard encounter at them that will probably kill one or two party members, so they will learn that they are still vulnerable. For example a huge dragon, a badass (pet) NPC, or some other huge monster with a CR way above the party. Right? Well, from my GMing experience, that will probably not work. My gaming group usually tears down all the hard encounters with ease, but sometimes they almost got killed by weak monsters who were not supposed to be a big thread.

:smalleek:

I think I understand what you goal is: The actions and words of the PCs should have some kind of impact in the world or story. There are allready many suggestions about counterforce in this thread, but I want to mention another idea.

When a person gets insulted, is counterforce the only possible respond? Often it is, but not always. Some people are very squeamish and they are easy to hurt by words. Of course this is not a good way to roleplay (most) of your emperors or villains, but lets say for example the PCs are insulting to the old, wise, good-aligned high priest of the Pelor temple. And their words really hurt him in the heart. He doesn't need to be rude against the party, he doesn't need to rage against them how they dare to insult him, he doesn't need to exclude the party from the trade, he doesn't need to force the party to leave the town and he doesn't need to demand some kind of apology from the PCs. He asks the PCs to leave the room in a politely and quiet voice, leans back in his chair and has now a very sad face, maybe with a little tear in his eye. And then he doesn't say another word to the party and waits quietly until they leave. If they keep talking to him, he only responds that he is not able to help them and repeats his request that they should leave him alone.

When your players are often insulting to other people, they probably forgot that NPCs also have feelings. Maybe the above situation would be a really shock for them if the realize they they hurted a man who was supposed to be on their side. And maybe they will be a little more considerate next time.

[Threadnaught]

My group started thinking that, because they were the adventurers, that made them the good guys by default. One set of defenceless, sleeping Goblin merchants later and they weren't as quick to judge who's good and who's evil depending on race.

A little later on, one psychotic quest giver, three arrests and much pants wetting later, they don't accuse a Caster of being a villain by virtue of being a Caster.

Much later than that, they side with a BBEG with no intention of helping him out. Sometime after, they betray said BBEG by releasing an uncontrollable monster he kept imprisoned. They didn't stab anyone in the back without giving serious thought to how they'd do it after that.


After a handful of botched Diplomacy Checks, courtesy of The Giant, that ******* Druid now thinks before his character says the stupidest things I have ever heard, to NPCs. Before it just rolled off his tongue.


Speaking of saying stupid things.

That ******* Druid's character, a 1st level Human Cleric//Druid//Ninja is in Trolanport. A 4 hour long Gather Information gets him rumours of...
House Jorasco sold a commission for the construction of a new transport within the city.
A Dragonmarked House of some renown is in need of Elemental Binders and other help for a big commission they won.
And people have been going missing from Dragonroost, near the Howling Peaks. Anyone with a certain book can clearly sense the Broodspawn at work.

Okay, this guy has no Feats that allow the creation of Magic Items whatsoever, but he decides immediately to go for the Elemental Binding job. He ends up at one of House Cannith's production facilities and complains OOC because the other houses never work together even if it's mutually beneficial. I tell him OOC to shut the hell up and play the game. Back in character. Three Gnomes burst out of the double doors with the insignia of House Cannith emblazoned on them and hurry to a store across the street, which appears to be stocked with magical reagents and components for casting.
T*D knocks on the door after watching the Gnomes go and another Gnome opens the door*, scans around, looks at t*D's feet, then looks up to his face. The Gnome wants to know who t*D's character is, to which he claims to be "a knight", so having not had his question answered the Gnome asks again, who he is. This time because the Gnome believes that this person may in fact be a knight of, somewhere, he asks who the "knight" is affiliated with/sponsored by.
T*D then claims to be a freelance knight, and finally asks if there's any work he could be paid to do. The Gnome isn't impressed and a little suspicious, but gives him the benefit of the doubt by offering him the gig.
Gnome: Yeah, as a matter of fact, do you have any experience in the creation of magical devices?
That ******* Druid: No, but I could learn if you'd let me take the job.
Of course having been so generous with bull****, the Gnome is having non of it, perhaps t*D is a spy, sent to sabotage the commission, perhaps they mean to steal an item of importance for their benefactor.
So t*D makes another amusing offer.
T*D: Why don't you hire me as a guard to protect from spies, thieves, saboteurs and the other Houses?
Gnome: We have all the mindless Golems we need for protection, but if one of them breaks, we'll send for you, it'll be cheaper than making a new one.
T*D: This is a waste of time, do you have any work for me or not?
Gnome: Well I heard a rumour that people were going missing aroung Dragonroost, why don't you go there and be one of them?
Then the Gnome slammed the door in his face.

While the discussion happened, there were clear signs of Magic Item Crafting going off further inside, which he'd recognize if he had the Feat.

The other Gnomes rush from across the street with their arms full of items, clearly for some magical purpose. One hits the door with his shoulder three times. The Gnome guarding the door lets them inside without question.

This went on for an hour or two, besides finishing up his character, this was the entire session.


Whenever my players got cocky before, I always tried to take them out using lower CR creatures. Which never worked.

[Envyus]

So you're saying that the PCs can just bargain with Charon to give him an arbitrarily large army of himselves?

Oy Gevalt. :smalleek:

Imagine the Charons getting into a dispute about which is the real Charon with the predictable result of fratri-sui-cide and a gaggle of increasingly more powerful Charons duking it out with other Charons. :smallamused:

Well actually Charon goes back to his normal level of power after settling things with those who killed him. And there already is more or less an army of Charons with each one of them being able to summon the true one whenever they want. (However this is very expensive so most would risk death rather then Summon him)

[Coidzor]

Not at all. Heck that's part of the fun! The question really is what happens when they get cocky with someone who can actually ransack him and has reason to?

Why would someone who has a reason to kill them not already be killing them then? :smalltongue: In general, I believe you're supposed to avoid including segments where someone is going to want to fight the PCs and then rely on the PCs not provoking them in order to prevent a fight you don't want to happen.


Well actually Charon goes back to his normal level of power after settling things with those who killed him. And there already is more or less an army of Charons with each one of them being able to summon the true one whenever they want. (However this is very expensive so most would risk death rather then Summon him)

Well, that's good then, plugging that potential loophole before any multiverses became drowned in a sea of Charons.

[Chester]

Why would someone who has a reason to kill them not already be killing them then?

Manipulation.

[Coidzor]

Manipulation.

Then why would they abandon it for all of the PCs when only one PC isn't playing ball?

[Chester]

Then why would they abandon it for all of the PCs when only one PC isn't playing ball?

Reasons better suited for another thread. PM me if you're really interested in the details.

[Coidzor]

Reasons better suited for another thread. PM me if you're really interested in the details.

I'm not particularly interested, but knowing the answer will inform your actions.

Generally speaking though, if they're interested in getting the PCs to do something for them in the first place and only one of them is actually suspicious, they probably shouldn't be too eager to tip their hand by going straight to ultra-violence and confirming the suspicions of the one PC as correct to the others. Or jump straight to deciding to kill all of the party, because if they were just going to kill the PCs at what is essentially the drop of a hat, they didn't really need them for whatever they were going to manipulate them into doing.

Though partially it sounds like there's a variety of problems here, at the very least that your players aren't collaborating(hence the played out scenario where 1 had his PC make a scene and the others all acted like passive sheep) and you tipped your hand about manipulating them too soon. Both of those should be avoided when possible of course.

If you're going to have BBEGs appear and interact with the party when the players know they're the BBEG, you're going to need to make it abundantly clear that they're not high enough level to take out the BBEG yet if you want to preclude the possibility of a total party wipe from getting into such a fight too early. Or plan for such eventualities and decide in advance what they're going to do in lieu of killing the entire party or the offending PC.

If you can't find a way to do that after a few TPKs despite having warning signs, then having the BBEG interact with them through proxies may be a better fit for your group.

[Chester]

Ok, maybe this needs clarification.

The reason for the NPC to fight in that particular moment was that the PC was openly making threats and accusations. I chose to handle it differently, but maybe I wasn't clear.

As for the other PC's acting like "passive sheep," I do believe that I never indicated that. Again, maybe I was unclear.

However, I think the question was answered several posts ago, so thanks for the helpful replies, everyone!

[Coidzor]

Ok, maybe this needs clarification.

The reason for the NPC to fight in that particular moment was that the PC was openly making threats and accusations. I chose to handle it differently, but maybe I wasn't clear.

We've been ducking and weaving between the specific and the general for a while.


As for the other PC's acting like "passive sheep," I do believe that I never indicated that. Again, maybe I was unclear.

You said they did nothing in the face of their party member's actions and neither told him to knock it off or paid him any heed and then apologized profusely. :smalltongue: That's close enough, considering all of the other posts on the subject you didn't reply to.

[Mootsmcboots]

If I am playing an arrogant cocky PC, I expect there will be some NPC backlash at some point. I've mocked/insulted/shown off with the wrong NPC a few times now, and I don't mind suffering the consequences. I've played very intimidating PCs and it's the same there.

The potential consequences are what makes that kind of PC fun. Without the consequences the arrogance will begin to feel empty eventually, and is no different to combat with no challenge, or chance of death.

Especially if the consequences/punishment is interesting or creative, and they don't impede my PC to the point he's useless.

The times you get away with being arrogant to NPCs are fun. The times it doesn't go well and craziness ensues are the best. Everyone remembers those times. The key is to make sure they don't happen so often that it derails the overall progression of the campaign.

A lot of this is going to depend on the player too. I never blame or am angry with my DMs for the results of actions where I am arrogant/intimidating with NPCs, I took that risk, it didn't go my way.

Also, don't consider it punishment. You as the DM are not punishing a player for how he interacted with your NPC. Think of it as the NPC reacting based on that NPCs personality. You didn't cast a localized anti magic field around a certain piece of that players equipment, say an amulet. That wizard did, cause he's a vindictive little man.