A PC wants to run a Ur-Priest...

[atemu1234]

I think it may be a bad idea. He's a 3rd level sorcerer, 2nd level fighter, and I think he only wants to take Ur-Priest for two levels then become a Mystic Theurge. I'm only against this because it'll put him on a different power level than the rest of the group. Any tips?

[hymer]

Tell him no. Prestige Classes are completely and explicitly within the purview of the DM.


Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign.

[Kazudo]

There's a fluff requirement for Ur-Priest: You have to be trained by another Ur-Priest.

Make there not be any ur-priests available who can train him. It's your game world, they're a hidden sect that you can't find. They'll find you if they want you. That way you can deny his requests until later when it might be more balanced to permit it.

Be careful with doing stuff like that though. If you don't want your player to have something, make sure and level with them about it. If they won't be reasoned with, you may want to rethink them as a player.

EDIT:
Alternatively, if the rest of the group is primarily good, you can deny it on the grounds that he'd have to be evil in order to take the PRC, and you (rightly) don't want to cause an alignment schism in the party.

[Melville's Book]

I love Arcane/Divine theurges who focus on melee, but if you think it will make him too strong, tell him no. What's the rest of the group like, so we can compare? I mean, an advantage to theurges in general and especially this one is that his arcane side is going to be way behind. He's not advancing in other Ur-Priest abilities either, and his Divine casting will by necessity stop advancing at level 15. So if the group carries their weight normally he shouldn't be *too* out of hand; I mean, spellcasting is a lot more about how you play the character than how you build it.

[atemu1234]

The rest of the group includes a monk. Enough said.

[Ansem]

If you're going to restrict a player's choices, you should have decided and shared this beforehand, before the campaign even started.
Else try talking to the player and work something out.
The fact he's already a level 3 wizard and lvl 2 fighter, will waste more by going Ur-Priest (LUCKILY IN THIS EXCEPTION, Ur-Priest is awesome) so a setback is only if your group is really so poor it can't compete with Cleric casting, so that's a problem your group has to fix or you as DM.
Unless you're playing with noobs this last part shouldn't be an issue at all.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

If you're going to restrict a player's choices, you should have decided and shared this beforehand, before the campaign even started.
Else try talking to the player and work something out.
The fact he's already a level 3 wizard and lvl 2 fighter, will waste more by going Ur-Priest (LUCKILY IN THIS EXCEPTION, Ur-Priest is awesome) so a setback is only if your group is really so poor it can't compete with Cleric casting, so that's a problem your group has to fix or you as DM.
Unless you're playing with noobs this last part shouldn't be an issue at all.

This. If you are going to ban it, then you should let him change his levels.

[Kazudo]

If you're going to restrict a player's choices, you should have decided and shared this beforehand, before the campaign even started.
Else try talking to the player and work something out.
The fact he's already a level 3 wizard and lvl 2 fighter, will waste more by going Ur-Priest (LUCKILY IN THIS EXCEPTION, Ur-Priest is awesome) so a setback is only if your group is really so poor it can't compete with Cleric casting, so that's a problem your group has to fix or you as DM.
Unless you're playing with noobs this last part shouldn't be an issue at all.

You can't, however, fix problems that you don't know will come up. And I don't know that I'd want to play in a game where the DM prefaces it by saying "And you can't be this, this, this, this, this, this, this (ad nauseam)", even when no one brought it up. I don't think the problem is that he'll get Ur-Priest, I think the problem is that he'll then Theurge and become more potent than any ONE character in the group, which isn't just bad for balance, it's also going to guarantee he gets more usability all around and will be a much larger hit to the team if the player suddenly, I dunno, stops showing up, or his character dies horribly.

But this isn't about the DM's decision, it's about how to respond to a player request in such a manner that the DM's concerns about character and group balance are sated.

[Urpriest]

In general, your players should get that if they don't play around the same optimization level then the game would be a lot less fun, so if you bring your concerns to this guy he'll probably listen.

That said, he's not going to overpower the rest of the group for a long time. At this point, he's got first level arcane spells when a wizard would have 3rds. After two levels of Ur Priest he'll have 2nds when a Cleric would have had 4ths, and his arcane spells will still be 1st level. He won't catch up on Cleric spells for a long time, and he's never going to get 9th level arcane spells. So I don't think this is going to be as big a problem as you think.

[hymer]

If you're going to restrict a player's choices, you should have decided and shared this beforehand, before the campaign even started.

While generally and ideally true, I don't think it applies in this case. For one thing, the player has no reason to assume any and all prestige classes are available. More importantly, the worry here is that he is building a character that is too powerful to be in the same party as the poor monk. This is social contract stuff.

[Brookshw]

If you're going to restrict a player's choices, you should have decided and shared this beforehand, before the campaign even started.
Else try talking to the player and work something out..

Fair enough regarding the talking but on the note of bans, we really can treat it as a two way street. I tell my players up front what I'm thinking for a campaign and they tell me what they want to make for it. No reason a pc can't take the initiative here. As a game goes on, well, there's always the unexpected that comes up and should be addressed.

Heck, I just had a new player join my group. Its expedition to castle ravenloft with some hefty restrictions to try and get a "classic" feel. I asked the player to run the character plan and starting equipment by me before hand so we could discuss how it would mesh. He kinda blinked at me and said of course, like the idea of not telling the dm was completely foreign.

To/dr: the onus is equally on the player to convey what they want to do as it is on the dm to say what they can't do.

[The Grue]

This. If you are going to ban it, then you should let him change his levels.

you what mate


This is not retroactively banning a class that's been used as the core of a build. There are no levels that need to be changed. At best this is a player who built a character, then later discovered the Ur-Priest and decided to ask the GM if he could tack it in. At worst this is a player who chose to conceal his intentions and blindside the GM in the hopes of sneaking his character build in under the radar.

I'm inclined to believe the former of course; never attribute to malice, etc. That said, since this is an out of the blue request you're on firm standing to deny for any number of reasons.

[Vhaidara]

Ur-Priest actually raises a good point.

This guy has 3 fighter levels. Let's examine that.
1. It's an odd number of fighter levels.
2. He now wants to the urge, meaning it's 3 dead levels.

Now, if he enters MT out of UP, he enters at level 7. He gets divine 9s at level 14. A bit early, but he also never gets arcane 9s. And his other option is probably to stay in Wiz, meaning it's still T1.

[Urpriest]

you what mate


This is not retroactively banning a class that's been used as the core of a build. There are no levels that need to be changed. At best this is a player who built a character, then later discovered the Ur-Priest and decided to ask the GM if he could tack it in. At worst this is a player who chose to conceal his intentions and blindside the GM in the hopes of sneaking his character build in under the radar.

I'm inclined to believe the former of course; never attribute to malice, etc. That said, since this is an out of the blue request you're on firm standing to deny for any number of reasons.

It could also be a PC who was planning on Urpriest all along, and a DM who was uninterested in knowing about their plans because "we don't plan builds, we just do what makes sense in this group". Basically, we don't know the full story.

[hymer]

This guy has 3 fighter levels.

What makes you think that?

[Vhaidara]

What makes you think that?

Apparently the fact that I cannot read.

[hymer]

Oh. Well two or three levels, doesn't change your argument much.

[HunterOfJello]

Apparently the fact that I cannot read.

He is Sorc 3/Fighter 2 instead of having any wizard levels, so what you said still balances out. He's Tier 2 and would go to Tier 1, but not far past it with those two fighter levels in the way.


~~~

Ask him to please pick a prestige class and character progression that follows the general strength and optimization of the other party members. That's likely going to be the best method.


And I don't know that I'd want to play in a game where the DM prefaces it by saying "And you can't be this, this, this, this, this, this, this (ad nauseam)", even when no one brought it up.

I would rather start off with a giant list of bannings and know what i'm getting in to rather than start off with no bannings and get things spontaneously banned as we go along.

[Kazudo]

I would rather start off with a giant list of bannings and know what i'm getting in to rather than start off with no bannings and get things spontaneously banned as we go along.

To each his own. As a player, however, I assume that you and I are both mature enough to admit when we're being sticks in the mud and to go with the DM's recommendations or rule trimming wherever it's entirely justified.

[VoxRationis]

The thing with this class...
The concept and mechanics are interesting, I'll admit, and double-rate cleric progression is fun (though your late start on the track does cause problems until you get well into the prestige class; I don't believe you catch up until the 4th level), but I find it doesn't make a ton of sense from the setting point of view. It falls into the same trap that a lot of optimizing does of "assume you are the only person with agency in the setting."
Even assuming that the gods cannot directly sense a given ur-priest stealing power, and assuming that there are few enough ur-priests that their collective activities are not noticeable, the gods would start to notice discrepancies between "power granted" and "power received," especially on the pantheon level, and especially as the ur-priest starts getting ahold of upper-level spells that cause a fuss in most settings. If the gods know about the concept of an ur-priest at all, they will make specific efforts to discern whether any exist and where they are, and then make either direct action or action through intermediaries to purge the offender with extreme prejudice. The very idea is an insult to the divinity of the gods and a threat to their worldly power, both directly and ideologically, and even though you are a threat, you still can't hope to match the powers you're angering. Worse, unlike most classes where mortals interfere with the workings of the gods and the Outer Planes, where you only make one side upset (and can use that side's enemies as protection), being an ur-priest automatically offends EVERY god at the same time. Being an ur-priest is a good in-character way to have cleric/outsider/assassin hit squads waiting for you every time you rest.

[ericgrau]

I'm only against this because it'll put him on a different power level than the rest of the group. Any tips?
That's your main criteria right there. If it matches the group it's ok, if it doesn't it's not. There's your reason to say no. If he only wants it for the power, you can flat out say no. If it's because he thinks it's a cool character concept, then nerf it until it matches the rest of the group.

[hymer]

I would rather start off with a giant list of bannings and know what i'm getting in to rather than start off with no bannings and get things spontaneously banned as we go along.

Ideally there should be a 'banned' list somewhere which isn't deviated from, but the work in creating one is a problem. Another problem is that we don't always realize what elements or combinations will cause problems. Such a list would require great system mastery and knowledge of the campaign to be played out to be useful beyond a rule of thumb.
It's usually a lot easier to talk to your players about their characters. They should be planning what classes they want to enter well in advance. If they're building by the seat of their pants, an unexpected ban should be a lot less of a blow.

Edit: Actually, with prestige classes specifically, players should probably assume it's banned and ask for a lift if they want to take it, rather than assume it's available.

[Urpriest]

The thing with this class...
The concept and mechanics are interesting, I'll admit, and double-rate cleric progression is fun (though your late start on the track does cause problems until you get well into the prestige class; I don't believe you catch up until the 4th level), but I find it doesn't make a ton of sense from the setting point of view. It falls into the same trap that a lot of optimizing does of "assume you are the only person with agency in the setting."
Even assuming that the gods cannot directly sense a given ur-priest stealing power, and assuming that there are few enough ur-priests that their collective activities are not noticeable, the gods would start to notice discrepancies between "power granted" and "power received," especially on the pantheon level, and especially as the ur-priest starts getting ahold of upper-level spells that cause a fuss in most settings. If the gods know about the concept of an ur-priest at all, they will make specific efforts to discern whether any exist and where they are, and then make either direct action or action through intermediaries to purge the offender with extreme prejudice. The very idea is an insult to the divinity of the gods and a threat to their worldly power, both directly and ideologically, and even though you are a threat, you still can't hope to match the powers you're angering. Worse, unlike most classes where mortals interfere with the workings of the gods and the Outer Planes, where you only make one side upset (and can use that side's enemies as protection), being an ur-priest automatically offends EVERY god at the same time. Being an ur-priest is a good in-character way to have cleric/outsider/assassin hit squads waiting for you every time you rest.

So is being pretty much any other sort of evil character, really. PCs have enemies, it's where plots come from. And gods don't go after small fry personally, so at best you've got a church which is out to get you...which is pretty much true for any PC, since there are churches fanatically devoted to pretty much every possible concept in D&D.


you what mate


This is not retroactively banning a class that's been used as the core of a build. There are no levels that need to be changed. At best this is a player who built a character, then later discovered the Ur-Priest and decided to ask the GM if he could tack it in. At worst this is a player who chose to conceal his intentions and blindside the GM in the hopes of sneaking his character build in under the radar.

I'm inclined to believe the former of course; never attribute to malice, etc. That said, since this is an out of the blue request you're on firm standing to deny for any number of reasons.

Scratch what I said earlier about this. Actually, we know that the player has been planning on taking this class for some time: their classes have 2+Int skill points, and neither gets all Knowledges as class skills, so the player has devoted at least a feat and an abnormally high Int score to getting in, not to mention two feats (Iron Will could be taken causally in a low-OP setting, but what sort of benefit does a Sorc 3 get out of Spell Focus (Evil)?).

So it's clear that the player has been planning this for some time.

[PersonMan]

In general, your players should get that if they don't play around the same optimization level then the game would be a lot less fun, so if you bring your concerns to this guy he'll probably listen.

This. Chances are, he isn't thinking 'Muahaha! Time to be OP and ruin the game!' but rather 'Oh, cool!'.


That said, he's not going to overpower the rest of the group for a long time. At this point, he's got first level arcane spells when a wizard would have 3rds. After two levels of Ur Priest he'll have 2nds when a Cleric would have had 4ths, and his arcane spells will still be 1st level. He won't catch up on Cleric spells for a long time, and he's never going to get 9th level arcane spells. So I don't think this is going to be as big a problem as you think.

Yeah, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge looks strong, but in the end it's weaker than Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 10, having less potent divine casting and far weaker arcane casting.

If you think it's too strong, I'd do the following:

1. Tell him you think it's too strong and that you don't think it would be fair to the others for him to play that. Don't lie and make up excuses for reasons to ban it if that's the true one.
2. Tell him what he can do to make that combination less overpowering (i.e. focusing on buffs and support spells), if there is one.
3. Tell him what his other options are, to have the sort of melee divine-arcane gish feel.

[Segev]

Wait, how is MT/UR-Priest weaker as a divine caster than MT/Cleric?

Ur-Priests gain 2 "cleric" caster levels ever level.

[Urpriest]

Wait, how is MT/UR-Priest weaker as a divine caster than MT/Cleric?

Ur-Priests gain 2 "cleric" caster levels ever level.

Yes, but it gains them late, and with many fewer spell slots.

It catches up on the Cleric side at 10th level, and doesn't pass it until 12th. Low-op games don't even tend to last that long, the group will have imploded long before that comes to pass. Meanwhile, with the build he has listed he's going to be five levels behind an equal-leveled Wizard at all times, that's going to make his casting on that side pretty much useless.

[Segev]

Yes, but it gains them late, and with many fewer spell slots.

It catches up on the Cleric side at 10th level, and doesn't pass it until 12th. Low-op games don't even tend to last that long, the group will have imploded long before that comes to pass. Meanwhile, with the build he has listed he's going to be five levels behind an equal-leveled Wizard at all times, that's going to make his casting on that side pretty much useless.

Hm, I can see what you mean, yes. It's an ironic echo back to 2e, where the wizard was BALANCED around the idea that he was weak until high level, so you had to "pay your dues" to get there. In modern 3e charop, we tend to think only of the end game build.

[HaikenEdge]

You can't, however, fix problems that you don't know will come up. And I don't know that I'd want to play in a game where the DM prefaces it by saying "And you can't be this, this, this, this, this, this, this (ad nauseam)", even when no one brought it up. I don't think the problem is that he'll get Ur-Priest, I think the problem is that he'll then Theurge and become more potent than any ONE character in the group, which isn't just bad for balance, it's also going to guarantee he gets more usability all around and will be a much larger hit to the team if the player suddenly, I dunno, stops showing up, or his character dies horribly.

But this isn't about the DM's decision, it's about how to respond to a player request in such a manner that the DM's concerns about character and group balance are sated.

I'm the exact opposite, and I do believe the DM should know these problems (party balance, for example) will come up. I want to know exactly what I'm getting myself into before I start a game, lest I end up wasting my time because I find out it's not a campaign I actually want to participate in and end up voting with my feet. I want to be told, before I even begin building my character, what is legal, what is banned, and any house rules that are in play, because those things will influence how I build my character and play the game.

If the DM has specific bannings, I want to know about them beforehand; else they can seem arbitrary and spiteful.

[skyth]

Actually, we know that the player has been planning on taking this class for some time: their classes have 2+Int skill points, and neither gets all Knowledges as class skills, so the player has devoted at least a feat and an abnormally high Int score to getting in, not to mention two feats (Iron Will could be taken causally in a low-OP setting, but what sort of benefit does a Sorc 3 get out of Spell Focus (Evil)?).

So it's clear that the player has been planning this for some time.

In that case, he should get a (at least partial) rebuild if he can't take Ur-Priest.


in the end it's weaker than Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 10

Somehow I don't think there would be early entry into MT this way in this campaign either. (I know it's not something I allow)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Even if he was planning to go Ur-Priest all along, it's not like his current level build can't take him into another very respectable and optimal build. He may need to retrain or Psychic Reformation some feats, especially those required for Ur-Priest, but that's it. He can get one more Sorcerer level, one Spellsword level, and start taking Abjurant Champion.

[Story]

There's a fluff requirement for Ur-Priest: You have to be trained by another Ur-Priest.

Make there not be any ur-priests available who can train him. It's your game world, they're a hidden sect that you can't find. They'll find you if they want you. That way you can deny his requests until later when it might be more balanced to permit it.

Be careful with doing stuff like that though. If you don't want your player to have something, make sure and level with them about it. If they won't be reasoned with, you may want to rethink them as a player.

EDIT:
Alternatively, if the rest of the group is primarily good, you can deny it on the grounds that he'd have to be evil in order to take the PRC, and you (rightly) don't want to cause an alignment schism in the party.

Why not just be honest? If you don't tell him your actual reasons for banning something, then he might just try a different powerful build. Not that the listed Ur Preist build is very powerful to begin with, but I suppose anything looks good when there's a Monk in the party.

[Sian]

I'm of the general opinion that the players should run the basic prestige class ideas by the DM as early as feastable, both to get a stamp of approval, and if not getting it, having ample time to think up a new scheme.

Thats what i except when i'm playing in any group no matter if i'm DM or player.

So depending on the specifics (not quite sure how much to read into OP's posts) the blame can be placed both at the player (trying to sneak it past the DM by hiding his intentions) and the DM (by not preempting the issue by requesting the players to say which way they 'most likely' intend to push their character, and to prod the DM if they feel the character would go another way)

[skyth]

Even if he was planning to go Ur-Priest all along, it's not like his current level build can't take him into another very respectable and optimal build. He may need to retrain or Psychic Reformation some feats, especially those required for Ur-Priest, but that's it. He can get one more Sorcerer level, one Spellsword level, and start taking Abjurant Champion.

Shouldn't need to spend time/effort retraining if he isn't allowed to go the way he wanted to go. He should be allowed a rebuild for feats/skills that were only taken to get into Ur-Priest.

[Eldest]

I think it may be a bad idea. He's a 3rd level sorcerer, 2nd level fighter, and I think he only wants to take Ur-Priest for two levels then become a Mystic Theurge. I'm only against this because it'll put him on a different power level than the rest of the group. Any tips?

Have you, y'know, tried talking to him?

[Invader]

I'm still interested in what the other classes are that are being played.

[Mithril Leaf]

Why not just be honest? If you don't tell him your actual reasons for banning something, then he might just try a different powerful build. Not that the listed Ur Preist build is very powerful to begin with, but I suppose anything looks good when there's a Monk in the party.

With a bit of optimization a monk can be dealing the most damage in a party with an ubercharger. Some feats and/or a race, couple items, a few ACFs and the humble monk become a very solid upper tier 3. Need a few ranks in UMD, nothing consumable though. Just some racial items.

[Curmudgeon]

The rest of the group includes a monk. Enough said.
So that means you're going to require this PC to cast Greater Magic Weapon, Mighty Wallop/Greater Mighty Wallop, and Magic Vestment on the Monk every day. That is what you were referring to, right?

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

you what mate


This is not retroactively banning a class that's been used as the core of a build. There are no levels that need to be changed. At best this is a player who built a character, then later discovered the Ur-Priest and decided to ask the GM if he could tack it in. At worst this is a player who chose to conceal his intentions and blindside the GM in the hopes of sneaking his character build in under the radar.

I'm inclined to believe the former of course; never attribute to malice, etc. That said, since this is an out of the blue request you're on firm standing to deny for any number of reasons.

Look, when the players don't know you go for the "all prestige classes are banned except if I say so" it isn't fair to tell them after they have taken a couple of levels in hopes of going into a prestige class. If you are the DM and you want to ban *some* things but not all, then you should ask the players what they are actually going to play and tell them if they should go for it or not. Or you should make a huge ban list and tell them that those are the classes you don't play with.

I mean, even now the OP isn't sure that his player wants to play Ur-Priest, so how could it be the players fault?

Anyway we are talking about a game here, and games are supposed to be fun. If I wanted to play x prestige class, and the DM suddenly banned it just before I was about to enter it I wouldn't like it. If I was then forced to play the character with wizard/fighter multiclass I wouldn't like it even more. But I suppose you can always suicide or change group, so no big problem, right?

[Zweisteine]

My personal suggestion would be a simple houserule about ur-preist. Don't allow other classes to progress its casting levels. There are two reasons for this. The crunch reason is that ur-preist combined with other PrCs can be way too powerful. The fluff reason is that the path of the ur-preist is too intensive to learn alongside any other training; if you want learn to be an ur-preist, you can only learn to be an ur-preist.

Of course, if you do this, remind the player that they can just take a few cleric levels. (And if you use multiclassing penalties, don't impose them here. Or anywhere, for that matter.)

[The Grue]

Look, when the players don't know you go for the "all prestige classes are banned except if I say so" it isn't fair to tell them after they have taken a couple of levels in hopes of going into a prestige class. If you are the DM and you want to ban *some* things but not all, then you should ask the players what they are actually going to play and tell them if they should go for it or not. Or you should make a huge ban list and tell them that those are the classes you don't play with.

I mean, even now the OP isn't sure that his player wants to play Ur-Priest, so how could it be the players fault?

Anyway we are talking about a game here, and games are supposed to be fun. If I wanted to play x prestige class, and the DM suddenly banned it just before I was about to enter it I wouldn't like it. If I was then forced to play the character with wizard/fighter multiclass I wouldn't like it even more. But I suppose you can always suicide or change group, so no big problem, right?

All excellent points.

Someone mentioned earlier that players are responsible for making sure their DM knows what they're planning on doing with their characters, but at the same time the DM is equally responsible for finding that out. Apparently neither of those things happened, which is why there's now a problem.

Given that, well, the DMG has this to say about prestige classes:


Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign.

But just because that's in the book doesn't make it a reasonable assumption for a player to have.

At the same time, the Ur-Priest has a pretty specific requirement that's entirely under the control of the DM: The prospective Ur-Priest must be trained by an existing Ur-Priest. What if there are no Ur-Priests in the game world? Should the DM have to rewrite his campaign setting to accommodate the inclusion of Ur-Priests? I think this requirement shifts the responsibility more on the player, to ask during character creation "Hey DM are there any Ur-Priests in this campaign world, and if not can there be?" This would have given the DM an opportunity to say "Yeah there might be a few but they're extremely secretive and you're unlikely to ever meet one," or "No, I don't want to introduce Ur-Priests into this campaign setting for Reasons X, Y and Z, sorry."

My (completely subjective) conclusion: A full rebuild is not owed. Even a partial rebuild is not owed - however -as this is a game, ostensibly among friends, I believe the DM should allow the player to partially retrain as a good-faith gesture. If it were me, this would mean retraining the feats Iron Will and Spell Focus (Evil). The remaining requirements are ranks in skills that any character benefits from having. If the player doesn't feel that's sufficient then rolling an entirely new character may be in order, with all the IC consequences that entails in addition to whatever the DM's policy is to discourage endlessly retiring and re-rolling characters until you get perfect 18's or whatever.

The player and the DM should probably also have a discussion about keeping each other informed.

[Coidzor]

I think it may be a bad idea. He's a 3rd level sorcerer, 2nd level fighter, and I think he only wants to take Ur-Priest for two levels then become a Mystic Theurge. I'm only against this because it'll put him on a different power level than the rest of the group. Any tips?

So he needs 2 levels of Ur-Priest and another level of Sorcerer before he can even enter Mystic Theurge.

So he's entering MT at 9th level, with a spontaneous caster on one side, and he has 2nd level spells when he should have 5th level spells.

That leaves him capping out MT at 16th level, since the last two levels of MT don't do him any good if there's no more Ur-Priest progression. So that's 12 levels of Sorcerer Casting and all 10 levels of Ur-Priest, then he can either go straight sorcerer for the last 4 levels or a PrC that doesn't lose CL and max out at 16 levels of Sorcerer casting at ECL 20. If you even play to ECL 20.

Granted, monks are monks, even in the best of hands, but I have to wonder at what level the rest of the group is playing at and how long the campaign is going to run that this will be an issue. :smallconfused:

Since if you go to 20 it's a non-issue and if you only go to about ECL 12-13 it's not really going to be an issue either, unless he's really the only caster and it's an issue about having one caster and a bunch of mundanes and instead of supporting and carrying them he'd just overshadow them(which seems unlikely if they're able to carry him right now with his current build and how long it'll take for him to get up to speed).


To each his own. As a player, however, I assume that you and I are both mature enough to admit when we're being sticks in the mud and to go with the DM's recommendations or rule trimming wherever it's entirely justified.

Playing "Gotcha" or "Minesweeper" with the DM about what characters one can play is not my idea of fun, and it doesn't appear to be very common amongst others from what I've seen and heard. :smallconfused:


If the player doesn't feel that's sufficient then rolling an entirely new character may be in order, with all the IC consequences that entails in addition to whatever the DM's policy is to discourage endlessly retiring and re-rolling characters until you get perfect 18's or whatever.

You actually have to have policies other than "Don't do that?" :smallconfused:

[Honest Tiefling]

My question is, what sort of casters does he like to play? I've found that people really don't give a crap about other people's builds as long as its buffing them. If he's into that, I think MT can work as a buffer? He'll be contributing and quite unlikely to annoy others with the build.

[Captnq]

DUDE.

Did you READ the PrC?

I mean, I love the CONCEPT and the POWER of a Ur-priest Sorcerer Mystic Theurge combo. However...


Ur-priests despise gods. However, a small number of them have learned to tap into divine power and use it for their own needs without praying to or worshiping a god. Instead, each day they go into a trance and mentally steal the power that gods normally channel to devout clerics.

You do this:

Okay. I will let you take the class. You understand any devote follower of any god finds out, they will hunt you down and murder you. ANY devote follower. Evil Gods and Good Gods will unite to MURDER you. Murder the ever living crap out of you. They will spread your name and face to every church regardless of alignment because your very EXISTENCE is a threat to the established order. Let me make this clear, They will MURDER you as HARD as they can.

And the moment you start casting divine spells in front of a cleric, but he notices YOU DON'T HAVE AN AURA (class feature for clerics), He's going to start to wonder. If another player in the party is an actual cleric, his god will send him visions to instruct him to MURDER YOU in your SLEEP.

You understand your life expectancy will be measured in rounds, right? No god on the planet will ever allow one of the faithful to use raise dead on you, EVER. You understand that, right?

I just want you to sign something to that effect, so when you get your throat slit at the inn, you don't bitch at me later.

[VoxRationis]

So is being pretty much any other sort of evil character, really. PCs have enemies, it's where plots come from. And gods don't go after small fry personally, so at best you've got a church which is out to get you...which is pretty much true for any PC, since there are churches fanatically devoted to pretty much every possible concept in D&D.


Except that with normal characters, even evil ones, you can usually find someone who hates the faction that wants to kill you enough that they'll go out of their way to stop them out of spite. Whereas with an Ur-Priest, you simultaneously anger EVERY god, regardless of alignment, and each god has a substantial worldly following (complete with large numbers of full casters) and infinite armies of outsiders to call on to kill you, and the available allies you might have against them are few indeed. Whether you are in Benevoland or Darksoulvale, the local church, its substantial resources, and the entire populace will be after you.

[Story]

DUDE.

Did you READ the PrC?

I mean, I love the CONCEPT and the POWER of a Ur-priest Sorcerer Mystic Theurge combo. However...



You do this:

Okay. I will let you take the class. You understand any devote follower of any god finds out, they will hunt you down and murder you. ANY devote follower. Evil Gods and Good Gods will unite to MURDER you. Murder the ever living crap out of you. They will spread your name and face to every church regardless of alignment because your very EXISTENCE is a threat to the established order. Let me make this clear, They will MURDER you as HARD as they can.

And the moment you start casting divine spells in front of a cleric, but he notices YOU DON'T HAVE AN AURA (class feature for clerics), He's going to start to wonder. If another player in the party is an actual cleric, his god will send him visions to instruct him to MURDER YOU in your SLEEP.

You understand your life expectancy will be measured in rounds, right? No god on the planet will ever allow one of the faithful to use raise dead on you, EVER. You understand that, right?

I just want you to sign something to that effect, so when you get your throat slit at the inn, you don't bitch at me later.

If you're going to ban it, just be honest and ban it. This is clearly not the default fluff, given that Ur Priests are supposed to live long enough to teach others, and no mention is made of anyone behaving like this.

Incidentally, there are many divine casters that don't have an aura.

[VoxRationis]

Well, the default fluff says that the class gets its power by pissing off ALL of the gods at the same time—the rest is just what naturally follows for any reasonable DM with a desire to create a world where events progress with some degree of logic and consistency. You don't expect to live long by angering EVERY deity at the same time in a world where the powers of the gods are very real, as are the powers of their numerous followers and heavenly/infernal armies.

[Honest Tiefling]

Could be that the group suddenly finds out that the gods are all false and keeping the real ones tucked away somewhere or even killed them. Or maybe they're all evil. Or maybe the gods just all suck at their job. The PC could be from a tradition that knows that the gods are false/evil/stupid. Maybe the PC wants to learn to only steal from particular gods, such as evil ones. I think the Ur-Priest could be refluffed in such a way that the other party-mates might be okay with it or even non-evil.

IC actions should have IC consequences, and OOC concerns need to be brought up OOC. Having the PCs face danger is one thing, but who here REALLY thinks that all clerics are going to slap on spells to detect auras when spells are flying around? Same way that not every spellcaster suddenly has detect evil/good/whatever up and auto-kills the party the moment they step into hostile territory. Don't use IC to fix an OOC problem, that's the mark of a bad DM.

Heck, would most people even know what an Ur-Priest is? I thought they were a more secretive sect, lest more be tempted to follow their path.

[Coidzor]

And the moment you start casting divine spells in front of a cleric, but he notices YOU DON'T HAVE AN AURA (class feature for clerics), He's going to start to wonder. If another player in the party is an actual cleric, his god will send him visions to instruct him to MURDER YOU in your SLEEP.

I just want you to sign something to that effect, so when you get your throat slit at the inn, you don't bitch at me later.

Neutral clerics don't have auras. Evil creatures have auras, they're just going to be weaker than that of a cleric or evil outsider/undead. So a Neutral Ur-Priest has no issues, especially since those are for the followers of dead gods anyway, and an Evil Ur-Priest is just underestimated as far as how powerful their divine magic is if someone has the opportunity to examine them with Detect Evil. And powerful Evil individuals are generally assumed to be running around with alignment masking magic unless they're doing the overt evil overlord thing so they can nip down to the store without having to shake the paladins off of their cloaks. :smallconfused:

Frankly though, this just stinks of a toxic DMing philosophy. Why harangue the player and then say "don't you dare bitch back" when you could just... solve the problem with something approaching a modicum of diplomacy? :smallconfused:


Well, the default fluff says that the class gets its power by pissing off ALL of the gods at the same time—the rest is just what naturally follows for any reasonable DM with a desire to create a world where events progress with some degree of logic and consistency. You don't expect to live long by angering EVERY deity at the same time in a world where the powers of the gods are very real, as are the powers of their numerous followers and heavenly/infernal armies.

You don't really get to claim "reasonable DM" status when you're calling down all of the deities' attention onto the material plane at once for one character. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

Because my estimated charisma score is -240 and I don't think I have any ranks in diplomacy :)

[Just to Browse]

Well, the default fluff says that the class gets its power by pissing off ALL of the gods at the same time—the rest is just what naturally follows for any reasonable DM with a desire to create a world where events progress with some degree of logic and consistency. You don't expect to live long by angering EVERY deity at the same time in a world where the powers of the gods are very real, as are the powers of their numerous followers and heavenly/infernal armies.

Do not attempt to "balance" a class by throwing giant SCREW YOU monsters at them. Either ban it or let them play it without being randomly assassinated by Solars and Pit Fiends.

[ryu]

Because my estimated charisma score is -240 and I don't think I have any ranks in diplomacy :)

Physically impossible. You seem perfectly capable of recognizing the difference between yourself and others. That necessarily means you're somewhere above zero.

[Story]

Well, the default fluff says that the class gets its power by pissing off ALL of the gods at the same time—the rest is just what naturally follows for any reasonable DM with a desire to create a world where events progress with some degree of logic and consistency. You don't expect to live long by angering EVERY deity at the same time in a world where the powers of the gods are very real, as are the powers of their numerous followers and heavenly/infernal armies.

If you really want to go there, the logical result is most likely Tippyverse.

If you want logic and consistency, don't play 3.5

Anyway, the gods have bigger things to worry about. Obviously they're busy ruthlessly murdering all the Binders, Anima Mages, and Necrocarnates out there.

[VoxRationis]

Do not attempt to "balance" a class by throwing giant SCREW YOU monsters at them. Either ban it or let them play it without being randomly assassinated by Solars and Pit Fiends.

This isn't about balance; it's not even starting to be about balance. The class has both advantages and pitfalls; the class could be a hundred times better or a hundred times worse, and the outcome would be the same. If you steal power from the gods, but not enough to prevent them from coming after you, they're going to come after you, at which point you will find they're called gods for a good reason, and that most of them have large, devout mortal followings to boot. And obviously it wouldn't start with solars and pit fiends; that's too much of a resource cost to throw at some mortal guy unless he proves that it's a necessary investment. The first few would probably be a couple inquisitor-type clerics or paladins, maybe with a low-level outsider for reinforcement. But once that doesn't work, it's quickly going to escalate until the ur-priest can no longer handle his attackers.

If the class were based on something other than explicitly (in both abilities and fluff) stealing divine power from gods and powerful extraplanar beings, then any problem I had with it might be about balance (though as I mentioned, it has both advantages and pitfalls, so I don't regard it as especially better or worse than more cleric levels).

As it is, I'm not discouraging players from taking the class because I don't like the balance of it, I'm discouraging them from doing it because in an in-universe logic sense, taking the class is suicidal, and suicidal characters are bad for the game (for the most part). I discourage it for the same reasons I discourage things like urinating on the red carpet in the throne room of the most powerful kingdom of the land; it's a monumentally stupid idea that's going to get your character killed.

[Captnq]

Neutral clerics don't have auras. Evil creatures have auras, they're just going to be weaker than that of a cleric or evil outsider/undead. So a Neutral Ur-Priest has no issues, especially since those are for the followers of dead gods anyway


*blinks*

To qualify to become an ur-priest, a character must fulfill all
the following criteria.
Alignment: Any evil.

SO um... how about you learn the rules before you start jumping on a trivial point and attempt to bury me with it.



and an Evil Ur-Priest is just underestimated as far as how powerful their divine magic is if someone has the opportunity to examine them with Detect Evil. And powerful Evil individuals are generally assumed to be running around with alignment masking magic unless they're doing the overt evil overlord thing so they can nip down to the store without having to shake the paladins off of their cloaks. :smallconfused:

Uh-huh. Really? What page and book did you get this from? Because, you know, I'm reading the book and what I read is:


Ur-priests frequently work alone, although they occasionally find partnerships with members of other classes useful. They do not congregate into anything resembling temples, for they fear that too many of them in one place might draw unwanted divine attention. And of course they rarely associate with clerics or any other divine spellcasters, whom they see as lackeys and who view them as abominations.
So... who EXACTLY underestimated Ur-Priests? Please. I would LOVE to read where you are getting this from. Because when I look up Detect Evil I see that the player falls under STRONG. You know, one step away from OVERWHELMING?

And last I checked, it was a PLAYER we were talking about, not an Evil Overlord.



Frankly though, this just stinks of a toxic DMing philosophy. Why harangue the player and then say "don't you dare bitch back" when you could just... solve the problem with something approaching a modicum of diplomacy?


I have diplomacy. I am funny as hell. My players LOVE me. Everyone who I've run for has given me high praise. I've been running a D&D campaign 1-2 times a week on average for over 8 years. I've been GMing for over 20. I've handled campaigns with over sixty players. They keep coming back for SOME reason. Maybe it's arrogance, but I think it's because I've got some skill at this. Maybe you have no sense of humor and need to relax. Maybe read what I actually type instead of read into it.



You don't really get to claim "reasonable DM" status when you're calling down all of the deities' attention onto the material plane at once for one character. :smalltongue:

You cannot read.

So when is warning a player of the possible horrible outcomes "toxic"? So you want me to just let my player do something stupid without warning him like, "Hey, you know, that's really dumb. Allow me to explain just how DUMB this can be. I mean, REALLY dumb. Super dumb. I am at a loss of words for how dumb this is."

So telling people the truth is Toxic? Truth=Toxic? Is that what you are saying? Because that's what I'm reading. If I tell people the truth, exactly how things are, I'm TOXIC. I need to be "diplomatic", which apparently involves, I assume, Downplaying the threat. Maybe I should say, "You know, you really, kinda outta not do that because, you know, stuff?"

Is that diplomatic enough for you?

Well, tough. I tell the truth. All the time. Exactly how I see it. Don't like blunt and direct, Sorry to offend, but are my words wrong? Are my facts incorrect? Am I lying? No? Well then, deal with it. Sorry the truth bothers you so much.

My players LOVE how I don't BS them or get all passive-aggressive. We actually had that conversation. One of my players left to game with someone else, he was back in three weeks. He bitched up a storm about how the DM wouldn't just level with him and tell him the truth and had to railroad all the time.

You see, unlike you, I don't railroad. I put up warning signs and then say, "But, if you think you got a way to deal with all that, go for it." The REASONABLE DM warns his players before they do something that might get them killed. Then the REASONABLE DM lets the players make up their own mind, because a REASONABLE DM isn't here to tell the players how to play the game, he's here to run the world and explain things that the Character would know, but the Player might not.

For example: If a player told me, I want to jump in the Lake of Magma, I would blink a bit, go, "You sure?" if he said, "Yup." I'd go, "Okay." Why? Because I'm fairly certain he knows what Magma is.

For example: If a player told me, "I attack the Gazebo!" I would go, "You know a Gazebo is a wooden structure that typically is out in people's yards and people sit in them and do things, like drink lemonade. The structure is making no threatening moves towards you. It is harmless. It is the property of the Duke who has a small army guarding his estate. They mightbe protective of their beloved master's favorate place to enjoy mint julip on a hot afternoon." If the player said, "I charge, use full power attack and swing my greatsword!" That is the point where I shrug and resolve the matter.

In the first example, I feel no need to go into it. In the second, I feel the need to explain in great detail Just How STUPID this is.

In neither case do I feel compelled to say, "You Can't Do That."

However, if you read what I typed, you'd understand that what I typed was a WARNING TO THE PLAYER and not a suggestion as to how you actually should handle the matter.


Do not attempt to "balance" a class by throwing giant SCREW YOU monsters at them. Either ban it or let them play it without being randomly assassinated by Solars and Pit Fiends.

*Stares in disbelief*

Do... Do you even DM? Have you ever DMed? I... words fail how... I... What are you TALKING about? Are you having a conversation somewhere else and accidentally posted it here?

If someone pokes a God in the eye with a sharp stick, how long do you think he's going to live? Now, an Ur-Priest can go hide in a cave, be very quiet. Quietly build up power. Try hard not to get noticed. Avoid provoking paladins and what not. But we are talking about a PLAYER. Players do not hide in caves. Players attract attention. Players tend to be loud and obvious. Maybe this guy is the exception, but given his Build, Sorcerer/Ur-priest/Mystic Theurge, He sounds about as subtle and tactful as the death star trying to hide in a port-a-john.

If the player wants to take a huge, potentially fatal risk, LET HIM. Just explain, in Character, you know that this could get you dead. That there are other members of the party that if they find out will be compelled to kill you, and I will NOT save your ass.

[squiggit]

If you steal power from the gods, but not enough to prevent them from coming after you, they're going to come after you, at which point you will find they're called gods for a good reason

If you have a giant penny jar at your house and I steal a couple pennies you probably wouldn't even notice. Even if you did I doubt you'd devote serious resources trying to murder me. Would you?


Uh-huh. Really? What page and book did you get this from? Because, you know, I'm reading the book and what I read is:
Not congregating together because they don't want to draw unwanted attention seems to imply that by themselves they probably won't draw said unwanted attention.

Maybe once they reach a high level. But that that point they're, you know, high level spellcasters, which changes the dynamics a bit.

I could see it providing cool plot potential later in the game, but seriously don't fool yourself thinking that telling a level six player "Ten solars show up and kill you. Make a new character" is any form of good anything.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think what he meant is that the Evil ur-priest can use magic to avoid having an aura and then just pretend to be a Neutral cleric, who would also lack an aura while throwing around divine spells.

[Story]

I guess the difference is that I don't think it's supposed to be that suicidal, since they wouldn't print something that was intended to be unplayable. So you're effectively stealth banning it via houserule.

Then again, maybe it was supposed to be an NPC class, since NPCs only have one encounter in their lives and thus no opportunity to attract divine attention.


Edit: I just looked it up and read the description again, and it seems pretty strongly implied to me that Ur Priests don't steal enough power from any one god to provoke a response. They normally fly under the radar, so it's not an issue unless they go around flaunting it stupidly.

[Captnq]

If you really want to go there, the logical result is most likely Tippyverse.

If you want logic and consistency, don't play 3.5

Anyway, the gods have bigger things to worry about. Obviously they're busy ruthlessly murdering all the Binders, Anima Mages, and Necrocarnates out there.

*STARES IN DISBELIEF*

Are... do you read the books?
Do you know what logic means?
What does tippyverse have to do with the fact that Clerics Consider Ur-Priests Abombinations?
What do you mean the gods have more to worry about then a class who's very existence is a threat to the ability for gods to grant spells to their followers?

Last time that happened that was in Forgotten Realms and an empire was vaporized over it.

[HaikenEdge]

*STARES IN DISBELIEF*

Are... do you read the books?
Do you know what logic means?
What does tippyverse have to do with the fact that Clerics Consider Ur-Priests Abombinations?
What do you mean the gods have more to worry about then a class who's very existence is a threat to the ability for gods to grant spells to their followers?

Last time that happened that was in Forgotten Realms and an empire was vaporized over it.

If I recall correctly, aren't clerics who worship a concept, or even themselves, granted spells anyways?

[Story]

What do you mean the gods have more to worry about then a class who's very existence is a threat to the ability for gods to grant spells to their followers?

Last time that happened that was in Forgotten Realms and an empire was vaporized over it.

Well the default fluff is that Ur Priests don't steal enough spells to really be noticeable.


If I recall correctly, aren't clerics who worship a concept, or even themselves, granted spells anyways?

You can definitely have Clerics of a concept and they do get spells. I don't know about worshipping yourself.

[Honest Tiefling]

And I thought that some Athar (a group in planescape who deny the divinity of gods) could have clerics, as long as they follow a concept. Or am I getting that mixed up with something else?

[Rosstin]

His build doesn't even sound powerful.

[HaikenEdge]

You can definitely have Clerics of a concept and they do get spells. I don't know about worshipping yourself.

Think it was mentioned briefly in Elder Evils.

[ryu]

Well the default fluff is that Ur Priests don't steal enough spells to really be noticeable.



You can definitely have Clerics of a concept and they do get spells. I don't know about worshipping yourself.

Sure you can. Just worship the concept of yourself. I believe the relevant quote involves getting spells from one's god complex?

[VoxRationis]

It's not even that the gods are directly noticing that the power is being stolen. They're actively looking for hints of this sort of thing, in the same way that governments look for evidence of counterfeiters. A single counterfeiter, or even a group of them, is unlikely to significantly impact the economic sphere of a nation. But it's the sort of behavior that 1) is extremely detrimental if applied on a larger scale, so they have an incentive to bar people from doing it; and 2) challenges the legitimacy and authority of the government. Predictably, counterfeiters are sought out by the government and arrested, with heavy penalties slapped on them, probably in excess of the actual "damage" they've done to the community. The gods of most settings and mythologies would be loathe to let people think you can get away with stealing anything from them, especially their power—it's a challenge to their authority that they cannot ignore.
I'm not saying you ban the class, or that the consequences of taking it are because I'm showing you I don't like it as a DM—I actually think the class' abilities are kind of cool and one-spell-level-per-character-level is neat without being overly broken. It's simply the logical consequences of the action the PC takes. The PC steals the crown jewels of a local kingdom? Expect their pictures to be posted in every village square and agents or bounty hunters to be sent after them. The PC steals power from the gods themselves? Expect a squad of mid-level outsiders, clerics, and paladins to show up unexpectedly at times and kill them with extreme prejudice. Fair? Arguably not. But the gods have no reason to play fair in this instance.
Sometimes a DM goes a little easy on the players when they make a mistake their characters probably wouldn't have that should have large negative consequences—one softens the blow a bit. But when the player makes a build around actions that would provoke divine retribution by any god from any mythology or setting? Well...

[squiggit]

I'm not saying you ban the class, or that the consequences of taking it are because I'm showing you I don't like it as a DM

That doesn't jive at all with "I'm going to constantly send divine hitmen after you lol".

Now if the character does something to provoke the gods or draw attention to himself? Sure. But the way you're presenting it sounds as if you're gonna send hitsquads at them until they're forced to reroll no matter what they do.

[MadGreenSon]

I really dig the idea of a cleric who worships themselves. I'd require the PC to roleplay it though.

He'd probably get killed by the rest of the party unless he was particularly zen about it.:smallbiggrin:

Also, if you go by Dragon, the Athar have divine casters who pay homage to the "Great Unknown" as they consider all "gods" to be powerful fakes.
The Planar Handbook has a class that just rejects divinity and can trade in cleric levels for extra goodies.
The Defiant. There was a thread a short while ago where it was discussed that the class has good synergy with Ur-Priest. "Take that undeserved power from those fakes" and all that.

Speaking of planar Factions. The Sign of One might be a good place for a cleric who worships themselves, they all believe they're on the way to godhood anyway.

[HaikenEdge]

Sure you can. Just worship the concept of yourself. I believe the relevant quote involves getting spells from one's god complex?

Doesn't even have to be the concept of yourself, as per this section from page 113 of Elder Evils:


Scholars and priests puzzled over Sertrous’s dying words and made an incredible discovery: One need not worship a god to gain the power of divine magic. Rather than worship a god, a cleric could worship an ideal and gain the same reward. He could worship the mountains, or the sky, or the act of war, or himself. He could even worship a slain obyrith lord. Avamerin saw this plague of godless priests thrive and was powerless to stop it.

I mean, I get that it's fluff and all, but that seems to state pretty clearly you could be a cleric of yourself and grant yourself spells.

[Endarire]

What about the fluff of worshipping a dead or displaced/fading god?

[VoxRationis]

That doesn't jive at all with "I'm going to constantly send divine hitmen after you lol".

Now if the character does something to provoke the gods or draw attention to himself? Sure. But the way you're presenting it sounds as if you're gonna send hitsquads at them until they're forced to reroll no matter what they do.

Well, think of it this way. You're an authority (king, president, god, mafia Don) of some sort. This guy steals from you and challenges your authority in a way that you cannot accept, so you send a few of your enforcers (cops, thugs, warrior-priests) after him.
They don't come back, and you don't hear that they did their job. Safe bet is this guy killed them and is continuing to flaunt your authority. You've got, however, legions more enforcers, including large numbers of enforcers of more power than the earlier ones. It is well within your power to kill this guy, if you say the word that he should die.
Is it at all reasonable to let him live, just because he defeated the first few?
If the god sends one servant, he or she will send more and better if the earlier ones fail. This is why you don't do things at 6th level that provoke the wrath of things at 30th level who command hierarchies of things occupying all the intervening levels, and especially don't provoke the wrath of ALL such beings at once.
I honestly do feel the Ur-priest class is cool and has cool flavor to it—I myself have briefly entertained the notion of playing one. I just also think that the mere act of taking a level in the class is a sure-fire way to draw more heat to yourself than you can survive.

[Raven777]

This is another reason to prefer Golarion over the Forgotten Realms. It puts Gods back in their place. Let no man be beholden to a god (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Rahadoum).

[Augmental]

You do this:

Okay. I will let you take the class. You understand any devote follower of any god finds out, they will hunt you down and murder you. ANY devote follower. Evil Gods and Good Gods will unite to MURDER you. Murder the ever living crap out of you. They will spread your name and face to every church regardless of alignment because your very EXISTENCE is a threat to the established order. Let me make this clear, They will MURDER you as HARD as they can.

And the moment you start casting divine spells in front of a cleric, but he notices YOU DON'T HAVE AN AURA (class feature for clerics), He's going to start to wonder. If another player in the party is an actual cleric, his god will send him visions to instruct him to MURDER YOU in your SLEEP.

You understand your life expectancy will be measured in rounds, right? No god on the planet will ever allow one of the faithful to use raise dead on you, EVER. You understand that, right?

I just want you to sign something to that effect, so when you get your throat slit at the inn, you don't bitch at me later.

Or you could just ban the class and have essentially the same result.

[VoxRationis]

I think perhaps your problem with my recommendation is that you're conflating two distinct roles of the DM. One role is as a referee for a game; in this role, sending large, difficult-to-kill outsider/cleric hit squads is unfair and seems petty.

But I'm referring to the role of the DM as the role-player for every character who isn't a PC, and in that role, this is entirely logical, for the reasons I have outlined above, and there is no logical reason to make the contest fair. There are in-game reasons for why lots of other high-profile PC activities may not receive divine intervention (gods canceling one another's activities behind the scenes, for example, or the activities being mundane enough from a god's perspective that it's not worth even the minimal effort it would take to address). But those go away when the PC's MO angers all the gods equally and severely.

[Honest Tiefling]

The in-game reasons shouldn't get in the way of fun, they should add to the fun. Sometimes, a build just won't work in a given game because of the campaign setting. But as we don't know which campaign setting it is, we can assume there's a work around that doesn't lead to Solars fall, everyone dies.

Like maybe the very nature of being an Ur-Priest is that the gods don't actually know where that magic is going. They might notice it is gone, but they can't figure out where it went so they spend time checking behind the divine couch cushions.

Maybe another entity is masking it. I could easily see Pazuzu or another fiend or even an Elder Evil finding this hilarious or useful to their plans. That might cause future problems, but perhaps something more plot based rather then killing the PC.

Also, they could just stick to really rural areas without high-level casters. I would find it amazingly odd if towns out in the sticks kept having enough high level spellcasters to detect the Ur-Priest on a regular basis.

[squiggit]

Well, think of it this way. You're an authority (king, president, god, mafia Don) of some sort. This guy steals from you and challenges your authority in a way that you cannot accept, so you send a few of your enforcers (cops, thugs, warrior-priests) after him.
Well as I've already said, I'm contesting that the god would even necessarily notice before the Ur-priest is high level. They're not omniscient or omnipresent.


This is why you don't do things at 6th level that provoke the wrath of things at 30th level who command hierarchies of things occupying all the intervening levels, and especially don't provoke the wrath of ALL such beings at once.
But you didn't use a "provoke the wrath of" caveat. You're just sending the hitmen anyways. In the class' description it does mention that Ur-priests rarely gather in large groups as to avoid attention. It says nothing about "every ur-priest is constantly hunted by roving lynch mobs of solars". The former statement (and the fact that Ur-priests exist and are expected to exist given the Special requirements) heavily implies that Ur-priests can avoid being hunted.

If said Ur-priest walks into a temple of Pelor and start casting Sun domain spells while shouting obscenities. Yes, that's a valid reason to send your paladin hitmen after him.

An Ur-priest acting like a normal adventurer and doing his thing and remembering that bluff is a class skill and that drawing attention is bad? Sending armies of angels after him and trying to claim "it's just roleplaying" is that same scenario as the party rogue slitting the paladin's throat while the latter's asleep and arguing "It's just roleplaying".



I think perhaps your problem with my recommendation is that you're conflating two distinct roles of the DM.
No. It's more just that "it's just how it makes sense to play the scenario" sounds more like an excuse to be vindictive.

[VoxRationis]

I was basing my scenario off the the very assumption that the gods couldn't see where exactly the magic was going, or even that it was being stolen immediately. As I said before, the gods are looking for hints that this thing is happening. They do divine "accounting," and when the numbers don't add up, they start dispatching investigators and even doing some investigation of their own. Between their spells, spell-like abilities, and divine powers, the gods in D&D have some pretty powerful divinations (there's a reason for that word etymology). And where those uncover traces, more effort is put in, and mortal and immortal investigators dredge up more clues.
I'm not saying the response is immediate—a skilled and subtle ur-priest could potentially avoid it for years, with well-thought-out applications of wards, illusions, and simple hiding and inactivity—but it is inevitable, and once the ur-priest is found, the pressure will be built up until the poor bastard can't take it anymore.

That said, I do see what you mean about the logical conclusion not necessarily being the most fun (although the aforementioned mortal searches for ur-priests make great church-sponsored adventure hooks for player characters).

As a completely separate note, why are they called ur-priests? Are they supposed to be an earlier form of priest, and all clerics are the equivalent of parasites that have become mutualists over time, or are they connected with an ancient Sumerian setting?

[squiggit]

I was basing my scenario off the the very assumption that the gods couldn't see where exactly the magic was going, or even that it was being stolen immediately. As I said before, the gods are looking for hints that this thing is happening. They do divine "accounting," and when the numbers don't add up, they start dispatching investigators and even doing some investigation of their own. Between their spells, spell-like abilities, and divine powers, the gods in D&D have some pretty powerful divinations (there's a reason for that word etymology). And where those uncover traces, more effort is put in, and mortal and immortal investigators dredge up more clues.
I'm not saying the response is immediate—a skilled and subtle ur-priest could potentially avoid it for years, with well-thought-out applications of wards, illusions, and simple hiding and inactivity—but it is inevitable, and once the ur-priest is found, the pressure will be built up until the poor bastard can't take it anymore.
I'm not even sure what mechanism you'd deploy for divine accounting.

Or even how you can account for it at some times if the Ur-priest is being careful. If he's stealing say, taking a single 0th level spells worth of power from 6 different gods.. and powering his ninth level spells by taking a fraction of its power from a dozen or more gods, would they even be able to notice it at all? If they're just siphoning fractions of the power off various planes and lesser entities that won't necessarily be under the immediate eye of a greater god would they still be able to detect it?

As a completely separate note, why are they called ur-priests? Are they supposed to be an earlier form of priest, and all clerics are the equivalent of parasites that have become mutualists over time, or are they connected with an ancient Sumerian setting?

I think the better question now is what is even the point of an ur-priest (from a fluff perspective). Fundamentally Ur-priests look down on clerics because they see them as a god's stooges and lackeys. So the Ur-priest steals power rather than bowing, as they see it.

How does that conceptualization hold up when you find out a cleric can worship themselves? Or an inanimate object or high concept that can't exact any sort of tribute or require any sort of special behavior.

[Augmental]

As a completely separate note, why are they called ur-priests? Are they supposed to be an earlier form of priest, and all clerics are the equivalent of parasites that have become mutualists over time, or are they connected with an ancient Sumerian setting?

According to Wikipedia, Ur- is a German prefix meaning "original or primitive".

[VoxRationis]

But you didn't use a "provoke the wrath of" caveat. You're just sending the hitmen anyways. In the class' description it does mention that Ur-priests rarely gather in large groups as to avoid attention. It says nothing about "every ur-priest is constantly hunted by roving lynch mobs of solars". The former statement (and the fact that Ur-priests exist and are expected to exist given the Special requirements) heavily implies that Ur-priests can avoid being hunted.

Are you kidding? The whole class is a provocation against the gods. The basic mechanic of the class is based around offending the gods. The "caveat" you say I didn't use was as integral to the context as the sentence as the fact that a rogue's rapier has a sharp point.



An Ur-priest acting like a normal adventurer and doing his thing and remembering that bluff is a class skill and that drawing attention is bad? Sending armies of angels after him and trying to claim "it's just roleplaying" is that same scenario as the party rogue slitting the paladin's throat while the latter's asleep and arguing "It's just roleplaying".
Party paladins shouldn't be in such deep conflict with the party rogue that there's in-character justification for throat-slitting. If those two particular characters are that opposed to one another, they shouldn't be two PCs in the same party; maybe one could be an NPC or something. But the DM doesn't have that option; they have to portray the reactions of all the NPCs, including those that have reasons to hunt down player characters because said player characters intentionally and methodically dared them to do so for all intents and purposes.
And, like always, you're jumping the initial stages of investigation and pursuit (the mortal hit squads with a couple hound archons or whatever) to over-dramatize the reaction. I agree that the immediate dispatch of a battalion of 20HD outsiders is excessive and unlikely. What I'm saying is that eventually the character will be accosted by some clerics of knowledge deities who were quicker-scrying than the others, and then by some paladins a few months later, maybe some Black Flame Zealots a couple weeks after that, then by some more clerics of the first god, this time with a planar ally, after that, and after a while, by bands of outsiders.



No. It's more just that "it's just how it makes sense to play the scenario" sounds more like an excuse to be vindictive.

Why would I be vindictive about a cleric hamstringing his spellcasting progression until 10 or 12th level?



I know about the meaning of the prefix; I was wondering if the title was meant to imply that the ur-priest class came before clerics in the setting's history.
As (yet another) aside, why is this class necessarily evil? The basic concept seems more Chaotic to me.

[MadGreenSon]

This is another reason to prefer Golarion over the Forgotten Realms. It puts Gods back in their place. Let no man be beholden to a god (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Rahadoum).

Cool setting. I had a BBEG Lich Ur-Priest turning legions of people into Necropolitians to "free them from the ham-fisted tyranny of the gods" using realistic depictions of the Wall of the Faithless to convince people to become undead and deny the gods their souls forever.

Good times.

[ryu]

Cool setting. I had a BBEG Lich Ur-Priest turning legions of people into Necropolitians to "free them from the ham-fisted tyranny of the gods" using realistic depictions of the Wall of the Faithless to convince people to become undead and deny the gods their souls forever.

Good times.

That's not even really evil. That's progress. Think about it. Most of the stuff that gets its power from worshiping deities and is mainstream can also worship ideals to get much the same effect. You also don't get all the mass destruction of squabbling deities reeking unspeakable havoc on people through their church warfare. You no longer have people with the force to demand that all faithless people be doomed to eternal torment after death. People don't even have to die of aging if they don't want. Lose a lot of good gods in the process? You also get rid of all the evil ones. On the whole that just sounds like a much less distopian on a multiverse level.

[Coidzor]

What about the fluff of worshipping a dead or displaced/fading god?

That adaptation section obviously doesn't exist.

[VoxRationis]

What about the fluff of worshipping a dead or displaced/fading god?

Alternate ideas for what happens to give an ur-priest his/her power could be good and avoid the whole "bring down the wrath of the gods" thing; I don't think that one is a viable replacement for the class. Why would worshipping a dead god give you power more quickly than worshipping a live one? I suppose if you were draining it in an unsustainable way...

Anyway, I wasn't referring to the realm of "all possible variants of the Ur-Priest prestige class, with myriad possible changes in fluff that the DM could devise." I was referring to the scenario where a player comes to the DM, points out the class straight "out of the box," as it were, and wants to play it.
Off the top of my head, I could think of a variant that wouldn't get the entire pantheon angry; you could only steal from half of it, and hide behind the skirts of the other half. You could cast spells as though you were a cleric of the opposite alignment, etc.

[HaikenEdge]

Since clerics clearly can worship themselves and grant themselves divine spells, as noted by the passage I quoted from Elder Evils, I suggest the player play an Ur-Priest who steals divine magic from himself, which he would have otherwise granted himself anyways if he had just decided to become a cleric of himself. And since he's clearly able to grant magic to himself, he should also take levels of spellthief in order to steal even more spells from himself.

[Mithril Leaf]

I was basing my scenario off the the very assumption that the gods couldn't see where exactly the magic was going, or even that it was being stolen immediately. As I said before, the gods are looking for hints that this thing is happening. They do divine "accounting," and when the numbers don't add up, they start dispatching investigators and even doing some investigation of their own. Between their spells, spell-like abilities, and divine powers, the gods in D&D have some pretty powerful divinations (there's a reason for that word etymology). And where those uncover traces, more effort is put in, and mortal and immortal investigators dredge up more clues.
I'm not saying the response is immediate—a skilled and subtle ur-priest could potentially avoid it for years, with well-thought-out applications of wards, illusions, and simple hiding and inactivity—but it is inevitable, and once the ur-priest is found, the pressure will be built up until the poor bastard can't take it anymore.

That said, I do see what you mean about the logical conclusion not necessarily being the most fun (although the aforementioned mortal searches for ur-priests make great church-sponsored adventure hooks for player characters).

Here's a real world analogy that I think might lessen the strength of this argument.

Current world Mega Corporations are rather similar in scope to lesser deities. Lots of power, pays the bills for many people, provides a service that keeps some alive, lets others die. They also get things stolen from them. Most things that get stolen are fairly insignificant. The companies have basic procedure to reduce the number of stolen items, but they don't spend lots of resources stopping people from stealing things. Instead they just have an amount of the budget set aside to account for the stolen goods and let it sort itself out most of the time. A low level Ur-Priest is a lot like the petty thief taking something from the local Wallmart. Sure, they might get caught, but they frequently and likely get away with it if they take standard precautions of their own. High level Ur-Priests are like pirates that raid shipping freighters in international waters. Sure you could take care of them with lots of resource expenditure, but they have the home field advantage and it still might not be worth it as they are well armed as well.

[VoxRationis]

A large corporation is not a god. It does not derive authority from anything other than people paying for its goods. It does not derive power from anything other than having money. A government is a lot better analogy for the divine in this case, since governments require widespread acceptance and acknowledgement of their authority that is challenged by people stealing things (in this case, military-grade weapons might be a good analogy ) from them and getting away with it.

Now that I think about it, however, which of these two things gods in your setting compares best to depends upon your setting, and I can't dictate that. So I'll amend that statement: for many settings, governments are a better analogy for gods than large corporations and in those settings I believe my argument holds true.

[Urpriest]

A large corporation is not a god. It does not derive authority from anything other than people paying for its goods. It does not derive power from anything other than having money. A government is a lot better analogy for the divine in this case, since governments require widespread acceptance and acknowledgement of their authority that is challenged by people stealing things (in this case, military-grade weapons might be a good analogy ) from them and getting away with it.

Except that deities don't generally have many people on the ground in D&D, and they certainly aren't involved in the day-to-day lives of people in the same way governments are. They're much more like corporations in that respect: people go to them when they need them, and otherwise ignore them.

In general, most clerics will indeed view most ur-priests as abominations, which is why there aren't any ur-priests that advertise the fact that they are ur-priests, in much the same way that most good-aligned clerics view undead-raising necromancers as abominations, which is why such people don't advertise their own allegiance.

Having PCs who are something the setting views as an abomination is not exactly a novel thing. Think about all the people who come to these forums playing casters in a world where arcane magic is viewed as witchcraft. It's a pretty standard story concept.

[VoxRationis]

Well, yes. This is true for some settings, and you'll see I amended the post to which you responded to account for that; you just beat me to the punch a bit.

That said, the gods don't need to have large inquisitions constantly on the prowl to notice this sort of thing—I was saying that the first line of following up on it requires mortal followers. The Divine Ranks and Powers section of the SRD says that greater deities (which, naturally, fall under the subset of "deities") are capable of sensing anything relating to their portfolio (presumably this means they have sufficiently high cognitive capacity to deal with this influx of information), even if it only affects one person (or even no people). Well, if you have a greater deity of magic, of evil, or of secrets, they're going to know about this quickly, and other deities might get the memo if the particular circumstances of the ur-priest apply to those deities' portfolios. Then you get the scrying abilities, the spellcasting levels, the "remote sensing" divine ability, etc., and the god's going to have enough information to follow up on pretty quickly. They might not be calling entire crusades to purge all who might be ur-priests, but a deity of high enough power certainly has a presence of sorts stemming through the setting.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, yes. This is true for some settings, and you'll see I amended the post to which you responded to account for that; you just beat me to the punch a bit.

That said, the gods don't need to have large inquisitions constantly on the prowl to notice this sort of thing—I was saying that the first line of following up on it requires mortal followers. The Divine Ranks and Powers section of the SRD says that greater deities (which, naturally, fall under the subset of "deities") are capable of sensing anything relating to their portfolio (presumably this means they have sufficiently high cognitive capacity to deal with this influx of information), even if it only affects one person (or even no people). Well, if you have a greater deity of magic, of evil, or of secrets, they're going to know about this quickly, and other deities might get the memo if the particular circumstances of the ur-priest apply to those deities' portfolios. Then you get the scrying abilities, the spellcasting levels, the "remote sensing" divine ability, etc., and the god's going to have enough information to follow up on pretty quickly. They might not be calling entire crusades to purge all who might be ur-priests, but a deity of high enough power certainly has a presence of sorts stemming through the setting.

So now you don't have any binders, clerics of ideals, or ethergaunts either right? After all, those can all mess with a deity's amount of worship pretty easily. Or the god can suck it up and just spend the millionth of a second and produce an extra few percentages of spells.

Obligatory XKCD (https://xkcd.com/974/)

[Just to Browse]

Do... Do you even DM? Have you ever DMed? I... words fail how... I... What are you TALKING about? Are you having a conversation somewhere else and accidentally posted it here?Yes, and apparently it's with people who actually like enjoying their game time.


If someone pokes a God in the eye with a sharp stick, how long do you think he's going to live? Now, an Ur-Priest can go hide in a cave, be very quiet. Quietly build up power. Try hard not to get noticed. Avoid provoking paladins and what not. But we are talking about a PLAYER. Players do not hide in caves. Players attract attention. Players tend to be loud and obvious. Maybe this guy is the exception, but given his Build, Sorcerer/Ur-priest/Mystic Theurge, He sounds about as subtle and tactful as the death star trying to hide in a port-a-john.What. So you're not only advocating for punishing players because they want to do cool things, but you're also advocating for punishing them for doing things that are fun?

Yikes.


If the player wants to take a huge, potentially fatal risk, LET HIM. Just explain, in Character, you know that this could get you dead. That there are other members of the party that if they find out will be compelled to kill you, and I will NOT save your ass.I think you're missing the crux of the issue. This is beyond your enraged appeals to "CONSISTINCY WITH THE WOTC FLUFF. FINAL DESTINATION." This is about whether or not a certain ruling will cause the player to enjoy the game. If you had a world where being a wizard is OK, but "god will shoot u with his lazers if its Tuesday or I'm in a bad moood LOL", no one cares if you're following the fluff of that world properly. The whole point is that you're being an ass to players who want to have fun.

There is only one way to do RPGs wrong, and that way is actively trying to stop another person from having fun. If atemu1234 does what you seem to be advocating for, then he will make his player more likely to quit the game, and no sane mind should even stoop that low as to defend that idea.

There is no possible fluff so important that it is worth making a player feel bad for trying to have fun.

[Augmental]

If atemu1234 does what you seem to be advocating for, then he will make his player more likely to quit the game, and no sane mind should even stoop that low as to defend that idea.

Maybe if it was the FATAL system? :smalltongue:

[VoxRationis]

I will openly say that I don't have the books that include binders or etherogaunts, whatever those are, so no, I don't have those in my game, and I haven't taken them into account.
As for clerics of an ideal... It hasn't really come up, besides the occasional joke, and so I don't usually include those in my games either.

As for "the only way to screw up is to make people not have fun," well, several of my players do things like scalp their dead enemies... in the middle of an inn, or order captured drow children to fight each other... in front of people who have the moral desire to stop that, or otherwise do destructive things that any NPC in the setting would object to and try to punish them for, and think that's fun. Part of having a good game is logical in-game continuity, and that includes logical consequences for people's actions.

[squiggit]

Are you kidding? The whole class is a provocation against the gods. The basic mechanic of the class is based around offending the gods. The "caveat" you say I didn't use was as integral to the context as the sentence as the fact that a rogue's rapier has a sharp point.
My point being that there's nothing to indicate said God would necessarily notice at any early stage of the game. Not that a god would like an ur-priest. At higher levels when the ur-priest would be more high profile? Sure. Make a plot hook out of it, that's different entirely.

You're skipping the part about Ur-priests avoiding drawing attention to themselves. That's in the fluff already. By declaring that a deity can pinpoint them at will to send their hitmen you're ignoring that part of the fluff outright.

Party paladins shouldn't be in such deep conflict with the party rogue that there's in-character justification for throat-slitting.
The larger point here is that doing something dickish and insisting that it's just proper RP doesn't change the fact that it's dickish. An evil rogue stealing/harming his own party members in an unprovoked and unstructured fashion is just the first thing that popped into my head (since it's the most common example I've seen thrown around).


A large corporation is not a god. It does not derive authority from anything other than people paying for its goods. It does not derive power from anything other than having money.

So... kind of like how deities in many of the 3.5 core settings derive power from customers worshipers?


As for "the only way to screw up is to make people not have fun," well, several of my players do things like scalp their dead enemies... in the middle of an inn, or order captured drow children to fight each other... in front of people who have the moral desire to stop that
That's a bit of (ok, a huge) strawman though. There's a big difference between doing something objectionable in front of someone who would object and acting accordingly and sending hitman after someone for existing (regardless of whether or not they should even be able to know he exists in the first place).

[Just to Browse]

Maybe if it was the FATAL system? :smalltongue:

I guess you're right. That or Exalted.
IT'S A JOKE I PROMISE

[VoxRationis]

Well, as I mentioned before, avoiding the attention of all the gods when doing something like stealing from them is pretty difficult, because they have a terrifying amount of perceptive ability.
Secondly, the fluff mentions that they try to avoid drawing attention to themselves, not that they succeed;
Thirdly, "worship" of a deity is different from going to the temple to get healed, and requires a certain degree of devotion that's not going to be nearly as prevalent when their divinity keeps getting challenged by people stealing from them and getting away with it;
Fourthly, the difference between this an intra-party conflict is that the DM is required to represent the world as a whole, and that world contains people of greater and lesser degrees of power which will react poorly if provoked, and that the game lacks any sense of fun or challenge if everyone just sits back and lets the party abuse them ad libitum.

[VoxRationis]

Also, what's the FATAL system and why are you discussing it in blue sarcasm text?

[ryu]

Also, what's the FATAL system and why are you discussing it in blue sarcasm text?

A terrible joke. That's the short answer. The long answer involves you googling it, reading it, and dying a little inside.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

I don't get how it matters if and how and why gods are after you in deciding if the build is balanced or not. :smallconfused: I mean ok as a DM you can always kill someone because reasons.

[Honest Tiefling]

As for "the only way to screw up is to make people not have fun," well, several of my players do things like scalp their dead enemies... in the middle of an inn, or order captured drow children to fight each other... in front of people who have the moral desire to stop that, or otherwise do destructive things that any NPC in the setting would object to and try to punish them for, and think that's fun. Part of having a good game is logical in-game continuity, and that includes logical consequences for people's actions.

In which case, your fund is impeded. However, doing things by the book, particularly fluff which is easy to change because it is in the book would not be a good reason to do such in my opinion. I think it would be best for DM and player to sit down and work out the fluff of the setting and reach a viable compromise. (Though I think originally the DM didn't want Ur-Priest for power reasons, anyway)

As for FATAL, it is a system where you roll well, the measurements of areas of certain parts of your body that rarely see the light of day. The crimes mentioned being commonplace in that book would make your scalpers look dang classy.

There's a reason that I proposed a rule that any player that seriously suggests playing Cthulutech, FATAL or Bliss Stage gets punched in the crotch.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

A terrible joke. That's the short answer. The long answer involves you googling it, reading it, and dying a little inside.

Why you do this to me :smallsigh: this wasn't a little

[squiggit]

Well, as I mentioned before, avoiding the attention of all the gods when doing something like stealing from them is pretty difficult, because they have a terrifying amount of perceptive ability.
Oh sure. Difficult, definitely. But only stealing a few drops from each? Or taking power from other divine sources too? Definitely possible.

Secondly, the fluff mentions that they try to avoid drawing attention to themselves, not that they succeed;
It also says they don't gather in large groups because that would draw attention to themselves, further implying that, alone, they can conceal themselves (after all, bluff is a class skill). Plus they exist, which goes a long way toward indicating that they can avoid mass divine retribution.


Fourthly, the difference between this an intra-party conflict is that the DM is required to represent the world as a whole, and that world contains people of greater and lesser degrees of power which will react poorly if provoked, and that the game lacks any sense of fun or challenge if everyone just sits back and lets the party abuse them ad libitum.

There's a ton of grey area between "The gods are going to hunt you down and you can't do anything to stop it" and "there's no challenge in the world". Similarly there's nothing about the party "abusing" anyone and them not doing anything about it. If the Ur priest does something to draw attention to himself, it's perfectly fine to start sending divine assistance after him. If the Ur-priest is growing too strong to ignore, divine intervention is a perfect plot hook (though it doesn't need to be entirely malign either).

Chances are you're already applying this concept of "keeping the world consistent" selectively anyways, because having, for instance, the PCs constantly get beaten to the boss by <insert fantasy hero here> won't make for a very exciting game, even if it's more consistent to have <insert fantasy hero here> solving the problems himself.

[ryu]

Why you do this to me :smallsigh: this wasn't a little

Why do I use that response? Better to be indirectly responsible for taking someone's innocence than directly responsible. That and I was being kind enough to warn of the results.

[Urpriest]

Vox, you're familiar with Alienists, right? Pretty much every god hates and fears the Far Realm, even the evil ones. Do you send deific intervention after Alienist PCs?

[VoxRationis]

Hm... I hadn't considered Alienists. They don't seem to be as direct a threat to divine authority, however, even if they are allied with the enemies of the gods. Besides, a class that has horrible things happen to them automatically as their ultimate ability doesn't have the same whole "bring down the social order and upset the dominion of the gods" potential as one that can operate just fine if the gods don't do anything about it.

That said, if you could prove to me that Alienists are a similar threat to divine authority, then I would also argue that Alienists would receive similar treatment.

[Honest Tiefling]

To heck with alienists, what of evil characters? Sure, they might not be as dangerous, but they're like cockroaches. They are everywhere! I am pretty sure that every settlement is required to have at least one as a plot hook for any wandering adventurers.

And yet, it would be considered bad form to have auto-detect evil up and running and the guards to run over and kill any evil PC. Its just bad form. I would argue that thematically, it does not work for the story or the fun of the game. If the DM is uncomfortable with such hiding then I would say just ban it entirely.

Also, any god that doesn't consider the Far Realm a threat is probably powerful enough that the Ur-Priest isn't stealing pennies, but the crud underneath the god's finger nails.

[Malimar]

A terrible joke. That's the short answer. The long answer involves you googling it, reading it, and dying a little inside.

I've seen many references to it, but never bothered to actually read a review of it or anything. Until just now.

...Ogawd it's even worse than all the jokes would have you believe.

[ryu]

I've seen many references to it, but never bothered to actually read a review of it or anything. Until just now.

...Ogawd it's even worse than all the jokes would have you believe.

Now see this? This right here is why I warned you. I warned you ALL!

[VoxRationis]

Evil characters have the evil gods looking out for them (if only because they are common enemies of the good gods), plus whatever deities in your setting favor "the balance between good and evil," assuming you have any. The argument was that an ur-priest or alienist gets the full divine retribution thing because they anger ALL the gods equally.

[Just to Browse]

I don't get how it matters if and how and why gods are after you in deciding if the build is balanced or not. :smallconfused: I mean ok as a DM you can always kill someone because reasons.This sums up my opinions in a much more holistic way. One for the quotebook.


Also, what's the FATAL system and why are you discussing it in blue sarcasm text?Anal circumference.

[NichG]

I would say though, if you are running a setting where some build choice would mean inevitable death for the person or the party, then you should by all means ban that choice rather than let the player step into the trap and have it play out. Or at least use a disposable NPC to show what happens.

"Hey, guess what, you can't find any of these guys to teach you. The rumor you followed from the fellow in the tavern just led you to this strange crater lake that wasn't on any of the maps of this area you could find. Also, in case that's not obvious enough, 'Let the mortals know their masters' has been scorched into the rockface at the edge of the crater in 100ft tall letters." (yes, this will likely turn the PC in question even further against the gods, but at least it'll be in a way that is 'plot' rather than 'rocks fall')

Its perfectly fine to decide that some WotC material just doesn't fit in your setting or has unfortunate implications or whatever. I mean, most people don't generally play with drown healing and the like, but it'd be sort of a jerk move to let a player think drown healing works, play along, and then say 'you drown; make a new character'. A pre-emptive 'no' is the right way to handle it, and its kinder on the player and the group as a whole.

[VoxRationis]

Well, of course I would warn them out-of-character that that kind of action would have fatal consequences.
As for the "drown healing" thing, it's the player's fault if they expect that to work, as it relies not only on a smack-the-offending-player-with-a-rulebook kind of loophole, but makes no sense in-character either. No one, dying from a sword stuck through their chest, would think that drowning themselves would save them (well, maybe if they're counting on local water spirits or something...).

[Mithril Leaf]

Evil characters have the evil gods looking out for them (if only because they are common enemies of the good gods), plus whatever deities in your setting favor "the balance between good and evil," assuming you have any. The argument was that an ur-priest or alienist gets the full divine retribution thing because they anger ALL the gods equally.

Who says they can't selectively steal from only a subset of gods? That would get the gods they aren't stealing from to tolerate them well enough.

[VoxRationis]

I specifically mentioned that possibility as a variant. However, I also mentioned that I wasn't going to be talking about possible variants, because then I'd have to base my arguments against the whole of the homebrewing community's potential.

[NichG]

Well, of course I would warn them out-of-character that that kind of action would have fatal consequences.
As for the "drown healing" thing, it's the player's fault if they expect that to work, as it relies not only on a smack-the-offending-player-with-a-rulebook kind of loophole, but makes no sense in-character either. No one, dying from a sword stuck through their chest, would think that drowning themselves would save them (well, maybe if they're counting on local water spirits or something...).

My point about the drown healing is that its a situation where you should just say 'cmon, knock it off' rather than drawing it out and using in-game consequences. Its very much a 'your character knows this isn't going to work, and now you do too' kind of thing.

[(Un)Inspired]

Anal circumference.

Of infants! Bloody Infants! The FATAL system is the absolute worst thing to exist in the world of pen and paper RPGs and I say this as someone that literally laughed out loud when I read that some of Vox's player were making drow kids fight each other to the death.

It's a nasty stain on the record of role play games. As tabletop gamers we all look a little worse because FATAL exists. It extols the worst kind of backward thinking sexuality and retrograde gamer ideals. When I first read about it I felt ashamed without any concrete reason why.

In a different time we would have given it's creators a couple of licks from the cat.

[Story]

Cool setting. I had a BBEG Lich Ur-Priest turning legions of people into Necropolitians to "free them from the ham-fisted tyranny of the gods" using realistic depictions of the Wall of the Faithless to convince people to become undead and deny the gods their souls forever.

Good times.

Funnily enough, that was one of the goals of my first 3.5 character. Except that he was good aligned.



So now you don't have any binders, clerics of ideals, or ethergaunts either right? After all, those can all mess with a deity's amount of worship pretty easily.

And unlike with Ur-Priests, the churches do canonically hunt down Binders. Not that does them much good.


To heck with alienists, what of evil characters? Sure, they might not be as dangerous, but they're like cockroaches. They are everywhere! I am pretty sure that every settlement is required to have at least one as a plot hook for any wandering adventurers.


At least 1? It's more like 1/3 the typical population.

[ryu]

Funnily enough, that was one of the goals of my first 3.5 character. Except that he was good aligned.




And unlike with Ur-Priests, the churches do canonically hunt down Binders. Not that does them much good.



At least 1? It's more like 1/3 the typical population.

Varies by race.

[Story]

But for humans it's 1/3, and humans are generally the most common species.

[ryu]

But for humans it's 1/3, and humans are generally the most common species.

More plentiful than most? Hellz yeah. Enough to be a majority of of life throughout existence? Yeah no.

[Arcanist]

*SNIP*

Kind sir, if I met you in real life, I would shake your hand.

[Andezzar]

If you don't want the Ur-Priest, you can just play the logic card. We know about Ur-Priest:
- a character needs an Ur-priest to become an Ur-Priest

The most logical consequence would be that Ur-Priest cannot exist because there cannot be a first Ur-Priest. This however is pretty pointless.

If a first Ur-priest does exist, he obviously has some means of avoiding divine retribution. If one can do it, all can do it. You just need to figure out what steps they have to take to stay under the radar.

Additionally yes, the gods may be aware of ur-priests stealing some of their power, but what in those rules say that they will devote their resources to finding and destroying the thief? After all an Ur-Priest who stops stealing from one god also stops stealing from all the other (possibly hostile) gods as well.

There is also no indication that the entirety of Ur-Priest cause a measurable decrease in power to the gods or their followers. So it is unlikely that the gods would put their difference aside to deal with that minor annoyance.

[Averis Vol]

According to Wikipedia, Ur- is a German prefix meaning "original or primitive".

so, Ur-Priests are like the hipsters of the DnD world, right? :smallbiggrin:

"What? you get your spells from Pelor? That's soooo lame. All my spells are hand picked from from places you probably wouldn't recognize. You aren't really a caster if you're restricted to what spells you can cast."

[Brookshw]

There is only one way to do RPGs wrong, and that way is actively trying to stop another person from having fun. If atemu1234 does what you seem to be advocating for, then he will make his player more likely to quit the game, and no sane mind should even stoop that low as to defend that idea.

There is no possible fluff so important that it is worth making a player feel bad for trying to have fun.

Sooo......PC's who enjoy actively pursuing an activity in game that they know up front could get them killed and would make them a target is a bad idea and no fun. Guess no one's an adventurer anymore.

But yes, some players do have fun waving the flag at the bull and seeing if they can dodge in time, don't take away their fun.


Except that deities don't generally have many people on the ground in D&D, and they certainly aren't involved in the day-to-day lives of people in the same way governments are.


Huh? deities ran out of churches, clerics and paladins? Could of sworn they had people on the ground, probably involved in peoples lives even.


so, Ur-Priests are like the hipsters of the DnD world, right? :smallbiggrin:


Well kinda, the Vashar were the first humans before being human became main stream. They're also the only race with Ur-Priests in their fluff. So, you know, they want to keep Ur-Priests underground and all that :smalltongue:

[Andezzar]

Huh? deities ran out of churches, clerics and paladins? Could of sworn they had people on the ground, probably involved in peoples lives even.I guess they don't have better things to do, like healing the sick or world domination or even thwarting the goals of inimical deities. No, they all have to gang up on people who steal negligible amounts of power from various deities.


Well kinda, the Vashar were the first humans before being human became main stream. They're also the only race with Ur-Priests in their fluff. So, you know, they want to keep Ur-Priests underground and all that :smalltongue:Where can I find that fluff?

[Brookshw]

.

Where can I find that fluff?

BoVD, page 13, under adventurers.

[Urpriest]

Hm... I hadn't considered Alienists. They don't seem to be as direct a threat to divine authority, however, even if they are allied with the enemies of the gods. Besides, a class that has horrible things happen to them automatically as their ultimate ability doesn't have the same whole "bring down the social order and upset the dominion of the gods" potential as one that can operate just fine if the gods don't do anything about it.

That said, if you could prove to me that Alienists are a similar threat to divine authority, then I would also argue that Alienists would receive similar treatment.

The most an Urpriest can do is steal some drabs of divine power (RAW, not enough to actually inconvenience anybody), and they're generally not interested in publicly promoting rejection of the gods, since they're wise enough to know that doesn't work.

By contrast, Alienists want to open gates to the Far Realm. Even if their class abilities don't make them all that great at it, even one succeeding is a problem for the gods. There are Far Realm entities that can eat gods for breakfast, you really don't want to risk drawing their attention. And unlike Urpriests, Alienists are insane, you can't rely on them to be prudent about these things.

Basically, Urpriests are like the mob in Gotham, Alienists are like the Joker.


Sooo......PC's who enjoy actively pursuing an activity in game that they know up front could get them killed and would make them a target is a bad idea and no fun. Guess no one's an adventurer anymore.

But yes, some players do have fun waving the flag at the bull and seeing if they can dodge in time, don't take away their fun.

Oh sure, and that's a big part of the appeal of characters like an Urpriest, the constant dance of hiding what you are. But there's a big difference between challenging your players and giving them an impossible task. Players like playing chicken with bulls, not being tied to railroad tracks.




Huh? deities ran out of churches, clerics and paladins? Could of sworn they had people on the ground, probably involved in peoples lives even.

I didn't say they had none, just not many. Even a metropolis has only about 60 clerics in it, smaller settlements will have fewer. There are tens to hundreds of gods in D&D, chances are only a few will be represented in any given place. And considering that most people in D&D are fairly polytheistic in temperament (for example, all of the big settings have vengeful sea gods that people only pray to when they're about to go on a voyage), it's pretty clear that churches are involved when their god is relevant, and otherwise take a backseat in peoples' lives.

[Just to Browse]

Sooo......PC's who enjoy actively pursuing an activity in game that they know up front could get them killed and would make them a target is a bad idea and no fun. Guess no one's an adventurer anymore.

But yes, some players do have fun waving the flag at the bull and seeing if they can dodge in time, don't take away their fun.Do your players like getting randomly assassinated by monsters 10 CR above their own, directed by gods who can literally perfectly predict the future? Are you sure you understand the context of this discussion?

[squiggit]

But yes, some players do have fun waving the flag at the bull and seeing if they can dodge in time, don't take away their fun.
The problem is that in this discussed scenario the bull is indestructible, unstoppable, homing, omniscient, covered in lasers and will charge you down if you happen to merely own anything red, regardless of whether or not you're waving it

[Brookshw]

Do your players like getting randomly assassinated by monsters 10 CR above their own, directed by gods who can literally perfectly predict the future? Are you sure you understand the context of this discussion?

As far as I'm concerned we're now talking about Hipster :smalltongue:

As to your earlier point, you're making a claim that the OP did not, he indicated that it would start with low level threats and work it's way up eventually escalating to Solars and Pit Fiends as opponents as the gods try to destroy the Ur-Priest (and whether that's a reasonable response to the Ur-Priest's actions). What he did not say is whether or not they'd be outside of a reasonable challenge range of the party. Are you sure you're not just assuming a context you may have inferred from other posters?

Also to dovetail on the Fatal side conversation, consider hackmaster where you can die before you've even finished character creation :smallbiggrin:

[Just to Browse]

You're confusing VoxRationis with captanq. One is saying the Ur-Priest is OK because it's good adventure fodder (which is wrong, but in a different way) and the other is saying that, regardless of Ur-Priest balance, the DM is totally entitled to drop God's Wrath on you if you annoy him.

I recommend you re-read page 1 of this discussion. It looks like you came a little late to the party.

[Story]

Also to dovetail on the Fatal side conversation, consider hackmaster where you can die before you've even finished character creation :smallbiggrin:

Technically you can do that in D&D too thanks to the Corpse flaw.

[MadGreenSon]

Am I the only person who doesn't run gods as if they were all micromanaging OCD cases who keep all of their divine senses tuned on the mortal world for the slightest case of anyone so much as thinking of going against them or doing anything to offend them and then going nuclear on said minor annoyances?

I mean seriously, if the gods are all devoting resources to monitoring the mortal world and the...whatever it is that sends power to clerics, then the first god to decide to not do that is gonna be able to assassinate all of the mortal-obsessed gods in a heartbeat.

Why does everyone seem to assume that the gods have nothing godly going on?

By the fluff, Ur-Priests exist. Enough Ur-Priests exist to train others to be Ur-Priests. Just deal with it.

If the OP does not want his player taking the PrC, that's his prerogative, it's an evil PrC made for evil characters and maybe the evil should be kept to a minimum, or maybe, as has been pointed out it's actually a sub-optimal choice for this character at this time.

We don't actually need celestial death-squads to justify this guy not playing an Ur-Priest.

To the OP: If you don't want an Ur-Priest in your game, just tell the player that and then allow him to alter his character so it's not all "Ur-Priest Ready" and move on. It's fair, it's just and everyone stands a chance of going away happy, or at least not unhappy

[Incanur]

A player in a campaign I ran played an ur-priest and it worked reasonably well. The build was ranger 1/warlock 4/ur-priest 10/hierophant 5 if I recall correctly.The PC didn't seem notably overpowered in relation to the others involved: a necromancer/pale master who eventually became a lich, a wizard/druid arcane hierophant with the Precocious Apprentice trick, and an unseen seer. Everyone was tier 1, though everybody but the ur-priest was down one or more caster levels.

[Brookshw]

You're confusing VoxRationis with captanq. One is saying the Ur-Priest is OK because it's good adventure fodder (which is wrong, but in a different way) and the other is saying that, regardless of Ur-Priest balance, the DM is totally entitled to drop God's Wrath on you if you annoy him.

I recommend you re-read page 1 of this discussion. It looks like you came a little late to the party.

Very glad to check with page 1, so glad in fact that I see the words I had posted on it when the discussion was about bans, consequences, and obligation to inform of bans, intended builds, and if a refund of things might be appropriate.

Oddly, when I check the other 5 pages, the OP makes no claims about inappropriate challenges.

Now can we please go back to talking about hipsters?

[Just to Browse]

Page 1 of the discussion is page 2 of the thread. You're posting 2 pages after, and are indeed late to the party.

And let me quote for you:

Okay. I will let you take the class. You understand any devote follower of any god finds out, they will hunt you down and murder you. ANY devote follower. Evil Gods and Good Gods will unite to MURDER you. Murder the ever living crap out of you. They will spread your name and face to every church regardless of alignment because your very EXISTENCE is a threat to the established order. Let me make this clear, They will MURDER you as HARD as they canEveryone, of all power levels (including the ones that see the future and the ones that are 10 CR above you) will spread info and try to kill you without letting you know so that they can "MURDER you as HARD as they can".

[VoxRationis]

The most an Urpriest can do is steal some drabs of divine power (RAW, not enough to actually inconvenience anybody), and they're generally not interested in publicly promoting rejection of the gods, since they're wise enough to know that doesn't work.

By contrast, Alienists want to open gates to the Far Realm. Even if their class abilities don't make them all that great at it, even one succeeding is a problem for the gods. There are Far Realm entities that can eat gods for breakfast, you really don't want to risk drawing their attention. And unlike Urpriests, Alienists are insane, you can't rely on them to be prudent about these things.

Basically, Urpriests are like the mob in Gotham, Alienists are like the Joker.


All right then; Alienists also get the same treatment.
As to the person who said that my idea requires that the gods be constantly focused on the Material Plane, examining it under a jeweler's lens for Ur-Priests rather than doing anything else: What I said doesn't actually require that much of the time and attention of something with huge numbers of actions per round, automatic sensing of anything related to their schtick, and infinite celestial minions and millions of followers. Though what I have outlined seems like an inordinate amount of effort, it is only so for a being that isn't a god. It's just another item on their daily to-do list.

[atemu1234]

Ok, based on the advice given in this thread, I've adopted a policy here on in that the players can take levels in any base classes they want, but they must consult me with their plans for a prestige class.

[Brookshw]

Page 1 of the discussion is page 2 of the thread. You're posting 2 pages after, and are indeed late to the party.

And let me quote for you:
Everyone, of all power levels (including the ones that see the future and the ones that are 10 CR above you) will spread info and try to kill you without letting you know so that they can "MURDER you as HARD as they can".

Remember that bit where I said that's not something the op said but rather something you inferred from other posters? You will however find a post on page 3 I believe from the op that he thinks to handle it via escalating, not starting at the top.

[VoxRationis]

Remember that bit where I said that's not something the op said but rather something you inferred from other posters? You will however find a post on page 3 I believe from the op that he thinks to handle it via escalating, not starting at the top.

Are you referring to me as the "op?" The original poster said nothing about divine retribution—he was interested in balance, to which my two cents is: the balance is fine, since he's losing caster levels even once he catches up in spell levels, plus he's kind of spread out through multiclassing anyway.

[Brookshw]

Are you referring to me as the "op?" The original poster said nothing about divine retribution—he was interested in balance, to which my two cents is: the balance is fine, since he's losing caster levels even once he catches up in spell levels, plus he's kind of spread out through multiclassing anyway.

Woops! That was you. Doesn't really change anything regarding players enjoying seeing how far they can go.

[MadGreenSon]

Ugh. It's really off-putting, the desire in some of the rules and in a lot of the players to make pantheistic deities omnipotent and omniscient. There's no mythological precedent for it and it sorta ruins the feel of a "many gods" cosmology if they're all so all-powerful and all-knowing.

It does not seem to have been meant to be that way. Thus Ur-Priests existing in the first place.

If you need to run a game with an all powerful deity available In Nomine is still out there if you know where to look.

[VoxRationis]

Actually, I agree with you. It does seem a little odd to have the gods be so powerful. That said, making them be less so would mean great changes in the way most settings are designed. Keeping the feel of older mythologies and pantheons would require that the gods work on much smaller scales than before; they'd probably end up being limited to certain geographical regions, or at least limited in their day-to-day operations. The scope of the extraplanar stuff would definitely have to be dropped. So while it is something that merits looking into, it's not applicable to this discussion because it would require drastic changes to the rules and the assumptions of the settings.

[MadGreenSon]

Actually, I agree with you. It does seem a little odd to have the gods be so powerful. That said, making them be less so would mean great changes in the way most settings are designed. Keeping the feel of older mythologies and pantheons would require that the gods work on much smaller scales than before; they'd probably end up being limited to certain geographical regions, or at least limited in their day-to-day operations. The scope of the extraplanar stuff would definitely have to be dropped. So while it is something that merits looking into, it's not applicable to this discussion because it would require drastic changes to the rules and the assumptions of the settings.

Bah! This is why the Sovereign Host are the best gods!

[VoxRationis]

I don't know what that means.

[squiggit]

Actually, I agree with you. It does seem a little odd to have the gods be so powerful. That said, making them be less so would mean great changes in the way most settings are designed.
But it wouldn't. Most of the stuff you've talked about: Divine accountants, constantly policing the world, roving squads of paladin-assassins, don't exist in the actual settings (or at least most of them).

[(Un)Inspired]

Bah! This is why the Sovereign Host are the best gods!

Uhhh I think you mean The Dark Six.

[VoxRationis]

But it wouldn't. Most of the stuff you've talked about: Divine accountants, constantly policing the world, roving squads of paladin-assassins, don't exist in the actual settings (or at least most of them).

Well, it would, to some degree. Would a Greek-style god, much less powerful than those presented in the rules, have enough power lying around that they would feel comfortable doling it out to priests every day? Would they have enough that an Ur-Priest could steal 9th-level spells without anyone noticing? Would they be at all relevant for the purposes of the extraplanar stuff? Would an infinite host of celestials, particularly the chaotic ones, care about the comparatively low-scale gods of such a concept? Would fiends?

[Just to Browse]

Remember that bit where I said that's not something the op said but rather something you inferred from other posters? You will however find a post on page 3 I believe from the op that he thinks to handle it via escalating, not starting at the top.

So you were actually just ignoring the context of my entire conversation with captanq and interjecting some unrelated opinion and about how the person I wasn't talking to do was doing something I wasn't talking about?

Well that's reasonable.

[MadGreenSon]

I don't know what that means.

The Sovereign Host is one of the Pantheons in Eberron. You know how many instances of divine messengers, avatar, divine intervention, etc. there are in Eberron canon? 0

That's right. In that setting they take the gods on faith because their gods aren't a bunch of chatty bitches who are always sticking their noses into everything.


Uhhh I think you mean The Dark Six.

Them too.

[(Un)Inspired]

Every time I eat a hamburger I'm praying to the Devourer.

[squiggit]

Well, it would, to some degree. Would a Greek-style god, much less powerful than those presented in the rules, have enough power lying around that they would feel comfortable doling it out to priests every day? Would they have enough that an Ur-Priest could steal 9th-level spells without anyone noticing? Would they be at all relevant for the purposes of the extraplanar stuff? Would an infinite host of celestials, particularly the chaotic ones, care about the comparatively low-scale gods of such a concept? Would fiends?

Power isn't the question here. It's how that power is oriented (regarding the pseudo-omniscience being discussed) and degree of direct intervention said divinity has. We know, for instance, that Pelor isn't very friendly with the undead, but at the same time we don't run into the issue of Pelor one-upping an adventuring party by smiting a lich himself before the party can get there, even a fairly high level one (wouldn't it be more realistic if he did though?!). We know too things like Binders, evil clerics, blackguard, jerkfaces, and ur-priests are not well received by the church itself, but there's little direct indication that the god gets involved himself. Even in communicating said threats to their followers a deity is explicit or offers direct assistance outside the most significant of threats, which a lone, mid level Ur-priest does not represent.

Though as an aside, the bit about "Would they have enough power to doll out to hundreds of priests" gets a bit fuzzy when we know that a sufficiently powerful cleric (mid epic) can rival a god in power while still somehow deriving their spells from said god. Even fuzzier when you remember that a cleric can worship something that shouldn't even have the ability to grant spells (a concept, a rock, themselves) and can still become immensely powerful. Which seems to indicate that while the magic is divine in nature it's not being directly derived from the deity himself.

[hamishspence]

Maybe it's concepts, that the gods themselves draw their energies from - and "filter" that energy down to their clerics?

With clerics of a concept, being those that "cut out the middleman".

So - you could have many Gods of War, all of which draw their power from the concept "War".

[VoxRationis]

Well, I believe what the Forgotten Realms book says about the subject of "why doesn't the god of X just do this before" is that they are usually fighting the influence of the other gods behind the scenes, playing their cards carefully and jockeying for position; this is a reasonable argument.
An analogy is the Cold War mentality; you have two or more factions of superpowers that are playing it cool to avoid getting involved in an internecine, all-consuming conflict, while attempting to play against one another in a less-than-direct way. Thus, on a tiny banana republic or whatever, things can go against one side's ideological desires or political interests because of this opposite influence sort of thing. But if someone does something that angers ALL of them at the same time... They can expect a response. Not at the full power of the superpower; this is an argument I never made and people should stop saying that I did. But a response nonetheless, and one probably too strong for them to deal with.

[hamishspence]

Yup- Power of Faerun goes into more detail on the deities as "movers and shakers" - but through their intermediaries.

[squiggit]

Well, I believe what the Forgotten Realms book says about the subject of "why doesn't the god of X just do this before" is that they are usually fighting the influence of the other gods behind the scenes, playing their cards carefully and jockeying for position; this is a reasonable argument.
An analogy is the Cold War mentality; you have two or more factions of superpowers that are playing it cool to avoid getting involved in an internecine, all-consuming conflict, while attempting to play against one another in a less-than-direct way. Thus, on a tiny banana republic or whatever, things can go against one side's ideological desires or political interests because of this opposite influence sort of thing. But if someone does something that angers ALL of them at the same time... They can expect a response. Not at the full power of the superpower; this is an argument I never made and people should stop saying that I did. But a response nonetheless, and one probably too strong for them to deal with.
That makes sense for a lot of these examples, but even for cases where the BBEG represents a threat that the entire pantheon hates at the same time the gods don't directly intervene unless the problem is an epic level one.

[MadGreenSon]

Even as written the gods do not have an infinite amount of power or, most importantly, attention to divide among everything that might be of interest to them. That's why they have servants, etc.
If a god personally started directing a lot of attention at all the petty mortal crap going on, like who's an Ur-Priest or not, that's attention that could have been spent guarding and promoting their interests and spheres of influence.
Gods that don't guard their interests well, will find themselves losing power because other gods will take it from them.

There is strong evidence in the system and mechanics that divine magic doesn't come from gods at all, but that worshipers and clerics of gods filter their understanding of divine magic through the philosophies and doctrines espoused by their gods.

That's why someone can be a cleric devoted to Order, or That Awesome Rock, or ME, and still have as much divine magic as a cleric of Pelor or Mystra.

Ur-Priests draw their energies from the scraps and leftovers of these channeled energies, here's an analogy: they aren't stealing cable, they're watching the TV through your window.

Ur-Priests seem to progress faster, but they also get less out of it than clerics. No Domains, not as many spells per day, not as much opportunity for cool prestige classes, no support network (Ur-Priests seem a solitary lot, they might know the one who trained them and one that they're training).

Clerics having all of these things that Ur-Priests don't have plus not being considered abominations by at least two core classes on sight is quite an advantage.

Truthfully, Ur-Priests are not a dire threat to various gods and their followers unless they're really trying. At that point, no need for celestial hit squads, heroes/adventurers will do the job nicely.

How much clearing out of pesky Ur-Priests really needs divine hit-squads or thunder from the heavens? None.

Ur-Priests that make trouble will get taken down the same as any other villain, just with more moral outrage on the part of the clerics and/or paladins.

Gods don't need to micromanage. That's why they have followers, clerics and paladins.
If all they needed was worship, they're so ridiculously overpowered they could just make races that do nothing but worship them with every breath and wipe out the pesky uppity mortals that do things like become Ur-Priests.

[Brookshw]

So you were actually just ignoring the context of my entire conversation with captanq and interjecting some unrelated opinion and about how the person I wasn't talking to do was doing something I wasn't talking about?

Well that's reasonable.

A miss attribution does not in anyway diminish my comment that you've chosen to prescribe how others choose to enjoy the game. Why yes, I have had players that LOVED trying to rub it in powerful entities/organizations faces and see if they can get away with it. Based on the fluff it strikes me as a perfectly fine thing. Note that captanq prescribes motivation. I believe in that same post you quoted he mentions clerics becoming aware of the ur priest and the gods then sending the cleric after you. You're still the person who inferred solars and pit fiends even though the example he gave wasn't nearly as extreme.

Actually playing cat and mouse trying to hide being an ur priest does sound like it could be a fun dynamic for a game. double points for hipster roleplay.

[VoxRationis]

Well, "as written" one or more of the gods automatically sense when an Ur-priest takes his spells for the day, has thousands if not tens of thousands of celestial underlings, and can do all kinds of things that are normally standard actions as free actions. It takes very little effort for the god to say "Ur-Priest/Alienist/whatever at X place; check it out" to the underling at his/her shoulder, and the Ur-priest represents an ideological threat to them much greater than their magical power, so the god is highly incentivized to go to that very little effort. It's like if every time an identity thief tried to get ahold of your credit card number, you got an alert that said "Identity Thief Spotted—Dispatch Assassins?"

[Andezzar]

Well, "as written" one or more of the gods automatically sense when an Ur-priest takes his spells for the day,Where do you get that?

[VoxRationis]

SRD, "Divine Ranks and Powers." There's a subsection about "Portfolio Sense" that says

Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.
If your portfolio is "magic," because the Ur-Priest is performing magic and gaining spells, "Evil," because the Ur-Priest (for some reason) needs to be Evil to use his powers, "secrets," because for obvious reasons the Ur-Priest is secretive about his work, or any number of other things that could relate to the Ur-Priest preparing or casting spells or even doing things like teaching other Ur-Priests, using class abilities that aren't spells, etc., you sense him doing it. The lack of sensory information is actually a boon—you don't get thrown off by appearances or possible interpretations thereof, just "You sense an Ur-Priest stealing spells."

[MadGreenSon]

SRD, "Divine Ranks and Powers." There's a subsection about "Portfolio Sense" that says

If your portfolio is "magic," because the Ur-Priest is performing magic and gaining spells, "Evil," because the Ur-Priest (for some reason) needs to be Evil to use his powers, "secrets," because for obvious reasons the Ur-Priest is secretive about his work, or any number of other things that could relate to the Ur-Priest preparing or casting spells or even doing things like teaching other Ur-Priests, using class abilities that aren't spells, etc., you sense him doing it. The lack of sensory information is actually a boon—you don't get thrown off by appearances or possible interpretations thereof, just "You sense an Ur-Priest stealing spells."

It still looks well below a god's paygrade to bother with unless the Ur-Priest is doing something else to get attention.

[Averis Vol]

Ok, based on the advice given in this thread, I've adopted a policy here on in that the players can take levels in any base classes they want, but they must consult me with their plans for a prestige class.

I almost thought that was standard procedure. Not that I try to go all big brother on my players, but I ask them every time that they're about to level what they're gonna take next. If I know their intentions I can just say "not for this game", and they choose something else. Some things just don't fit in a particular game whether it be a feat, class or what have you, and as long as your players and you can talk it out civilly, I see nothing wrong with saying, "no, you cant do this."

anyways, its a good policy to go by.

[Zalphon]

The only time a god in my campaign would ever take interest in an Ur Priest is if he proves to be a pain.

Even gatherings of Ur Priests don't merit their attention. Why concern themselves with the ants that happen to be taking a few grains of rice when they have granaries full and fields constantly growing?

[VoxRationis]

Because many infestations have a tendency to grow out of control. If you release a cat to eat the mice, or some sort of insect predator to eat ants, they can be kept to a very bare minimum. But if they are left unchecked, they can breed exponentially until you have no more grain.
This is what I'm saying. The gods have their agents hunt down and destroy ur-priests before they can become a major issue (an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, after all). Some ur-priests survive long enough to train new ones, possibly, but the mortality rate for ur-priests remains High, and the leading cause of death remains Divine Retribution.

[MadGreenSon]

If by "Divine Retribution" you mean "death by cleric" I agree.

Agents of the gods on the mortal plane tend to be cleric and paladins, who should be more than enough to handle any problems Ur-Priests cause.

The celestial hit-squads are better used on the Outer Planes, where such things are necessary.

[VoxRationis]

Exactly. The Outsiders, I had argued from the beginning, only show up if the Ur-Priest proves too much for mortal agents to handle.

[MadGreenSon]

Exactly. The Outsiders, I had argued from the beginning, only show up if the Ur-Priest proves too much for mortal agents to handle.

Ok, that would be a heck of an Ur-Priest. I had one in a game that was a Lich and had some MacGuffin that hid him from the eyes of the gods while he was busy converting thousands into Necropolitans to starve the gods of souls and the PCs were able to handle it.

Epic Demi-lich Ur-Priests with fully tricked out Defiant levels maybe?

[otakumick]

Vecna blooded Defiant/Urpriest
"yeah, I know I have 'god' blood... Vecna was pretty badass, but he's still just a hyped up mortal..."

[Kazudo]

Wow. This has become a completely different thread since I posted back on page one.

Out of curiosity, has there been any actual in-game movement from the DM about this? Basically, has a decision been reached amidst all of this argument and conversation?

[MadGreenSon]

Vecna blooded Defiant/Urpriest
"yeah, I know I have 'god' blood... Vecna was pretty badass, but he's still just a hyped up mortal..."

I'm entirely using this. Just so ya know. :smallbiggrin:


Wow. This has become a completely different thread since I posted back on page one.

Out of curiosity, has there been any actual in-game movement from the DM about this? Basically, has a decision been reached amidst all of this argument and conversation?

Y'know that's both a good and relevant question, anyone want to PM him and ask?

[VoxRationis]

I think he mentioned that he wanted to vet prestige class choices from now on.

[MadGreenSon]

I think he mentioned that he wanted to vet prestige class choices from now on.

That's a sensible move. Good for him.

Now what were we arguing about again?

[Kazudo]

The etymology of the tomato.

Or ur-priests and their stealing from deities and attracting hellfire and frightful cases of deathbylightning.

[MadGreenSon]

The etymology of the tomato.


Oh let's just quit then. I can't even remember what etymology means at this point. :smalltongue:

[NichG]

Though 'inevitable TPK' means 'tell the player no', I will say that PCs can be surprisingly resilient.

I ran a campaign once that took place in a Ark-like spaceship controlled by a bunch of crazy AIs, one of whom was responsible for keeping the various populations of things in check and who got a bit homicidal as time went on. The PCs discovered that this AI was essentially culling civilizations when they developed the technology to hit Lv20. One PC in particular had a mutant bloodline which particularly marked him for destruction, but for the most part the PCs were beneath the AI's radar (it was gearing up for a civilization-wide wipe, a few Lv12 characters weren't a big deal).

That is, until this mutant PC uses his mutation abilities to get telepathy, to enter into telepathic contact with the AI, and then to continuously taunt it.

So for the next few games, whenever said PC was directly beneath the fake 'sky' of the spaceship, he would take 20 points of 'radiation' damage per round (a special damage type that partially converts to Con drain when magically healed). So he did a lot of ducking under shelters and the like, until he finally found a way to get immunity to the attack. So yeah, direct, continual 'wrath of god' situation but he survived it.