Removing the Safeties from Spells

[pwykersotz]

So I've been considering running a new type of game lately, probably just a few side adventures, in a world where magic wasn't safe. Where dimension dooring into solid rock was a death sentence, and where animals could be summoned in mid-air, and where swallowing a shrunken boulder and then having the duration wear down would certainly rip you in half.

My question is, has anyone here had any fun playing such a game? What were the implications that made the world different from the standard 3.5 world? And what spells were affected/used in new interesting ways?

[Kazudo]

If you ran it like a game of Paranoia I could see it being kind of hilarious.

As far as adding realism to the game, I dunno, a lot of those are incredibly situational, and it wouldn't come up as much as, say, using Spell Recharge out of UA.

[pwykersotz]

If you ran it like a game of Paranoia I could see it being kind of hilarious.

As far as adding realism to the game, I dunno, a lot of those are incredibly situational, and it wouldn't come up as much as, say, using Spell Recharge out of UA.

Yeah, more the first example than the second. This isn't intended to balance or make anything more realistic, just to be a different style of play. Something where shenanigans and imagination with spells are high.

[IW Judicator]

I certainly would (though I'm also curious, are you also including a rule in which failing the spellcasting badly enough will backfire badly, instead of just fizzling out?) Also, are you considering this as "Spells Only" or does this extend to "Spell-Like Abilities" and others?

The primary implication, I believe, would be that casters would be more cautious about how, when, and why they cast whatever spell they're using. After all, if a misplaced Dimensional Door could result in being reduced to a pink mist, you'll be a little weary of using it as a backup plan. Additionally, this may very well turn a lot of people away from using magic at all (at least for NPCs) due to the increased threat. That in and of itself is a real game changer, especially for paranoid characters who don't go anywhere without an equivalent 30+ spell slots (in actual spells or items) in assorted forms of protection and contingency planning. Similarly, you'll want to consider the implications of Magic Items, particularly anything that has requires a UMD roll. Even those that don't, however, could be interesting. That +1 Flaming Longsword? That wouldn't be much fun to hold onto for too long a period without some safety precautions. And if those same precautions are also magical...well...we're getting into a bit of a loop, aren't we? Depending on overall execution, this could radically alter balance issues, possibly in good ways, possibly in bad.

As for what spells would be affected...it's really only limited by how gritty you want it to be. For instance, you may include a rule in which a magic user DOESN'T automatically disbelieve their own Illusions (though if you want to be a little more generous than that you might include a bonus to their save to disbelieve their own Illusions).

[Worira]

In general, this doesn't serve to make magic more dangerous for the caster, but rather for the target. Some buffs might be a bit riskier, but for the most part, this just gives free licence to casters to loophole their enemies to death.

[Deophaun]

The problem as I see it is most of these safeties aren't there for the caster, but for those around him. Can't summon animals in mid-air? That's to prevent casters from summoning whales on top of their opponents and crushing them to death. The change makes the world much, much more dangerous for people who are not casters and can't have detect magic going all the time to detect shrunken boulders in their food.

[Kazudo]

The problem as I see it is most of these safeties aren't there for the caster, but for those around him. Can't summon animals in mid-air? That's to prevent casters from summoning whales on top of their opponents and crushing them to death. The change makes the world much, much more dangerous for people who are not casters and can't have detect magic going all the time to detect shrunken boulders in their food.

Haha. Hah. Hahaha. The more I read this the more I feel like it needs to take place in some kind of dwarven underground city ruled by a powerful magical artifact with an iron fist. Dungeons and Paranoia.

[jedipotter]

My question is, has anyone here had any fun playing such a game? What were the implications that made the world different from the standard 3.5 world? And what spells were affected/used in new interesting ways?

I always game with the modern (3X and up) safeties off. Off target teleports can kill. Your stuff does not meld into your changed shape. And so on. I hate all the soft padding they added to the modern game.

The world is more sharp and deadly without such soft safeties, but it is much more fun.

[KillianHawkeye]

Don't forget the duration of your Fly spell running out or getting dispelled could lead to a lot of folks to a long drop and a sudden stop.

[Yanisa]

My group recently tried to convince me that they could use gaseous form to go inside people and then dismiss the spell, ending in a gory bloody explosion.

I told them magic in dnd does not work like that... But imagine it did... :smallamused:

[pwykersotz]

My group recently tried to convince me that they could use gaseous form to go inside people and then dismiss the spell, ending in a gory bloody explosion.

I told them magic in dnd does not work like that... But imagine it did... :smallamused:

That's...evil! :smallamused:

The trauma to the person who tried that couldn't be pleasant either though.

[jedipotter]

My group recently tried to convince me that they could use gaseous form to go inside people and then dismiss the spell, ending in a gory bloody explosion.

I told them magic in dnd does not work like that... But imagine it did... :smallamused:

Though the big trick is to have a type of group where the DM's word is LAW and not the more round table/everyone is equal type group.

The main reason in RAW you can't do such things is there are no rules for it, or worse, the rules don't cover it. What happens to the gaseous formed creature? Do they take damage too? Is there a save? And so on. With a GOD DM, they can just say DC 25 damage 10d6 to both and the game goes on. But at the round table you will have endless talk about how it should work from ''save to neg.'' to ''Instant Kill! Hoody Hoo!''.

[Brookshw]

Haha. Hah. Hahaha. The more I read this the more I feel like it needs to take place in some kind of dwarven underground city ruled by a powerful magical artifact with an iron fist. Dungeons and Paranoia.

Definitely! I'd play that. Might want to use a character/npc generator to save on time. I'm assuming multiple deaths a session for a paranoia flavor.

[pwykersotz]

Though the big trick is to have a type of group where the DM's word is LAW and not the more round table/everyone is equal type group.

The main reason in RAW you can't do such things is there are no rules for it, or worse, the rules don't cover it. What happens to the gaseous formed creature? Do they take damage too? Is there a save? And so on. With a GOD DM, they can just say DC 25 damage 10d6 to both and the game goes on. But at the round table you will have endless talk about how it should work from ''save to neg.'' to ''Instant Kill! Hoody Hoo!''.

That's an excellent point. I'll be sure to include that in the pitch to my players with regards to what they can expect.

[Brookshw]

That's an excellent point. I'll be sure to include that in the pitch to my players with regards to what they can expect.

Hehe, back to paranoia, "I'm sorry player, you don't have enough security access to know if there are rules for that or how they work. Please take teleporter 5 to reeducation chamber 3 for evaluation and correction".

And then the teleporter promptly throws him inside a wall. Or a reclimation golem shows up to "process" him.

The more I think about it the more fun it sounds.

[jedipotter]

That's an excellent point. I'll be sure to include that in the pitch to my players with regards to what they can expect.

A LOT of players will go off on tangents very quickly if you stop and have a round table talk for everything. You will simply stop playing D&D and be talking about the rules. This can drag on for hours. It can ruin a game night.

That is why ''The DM makes the calls'' works best. The DM says ''ABC happens'' and the game goes on. And players may e-mail the essay on ''Why gaseous form explosion from within should do 1d12 and not 1d6 base damage, a historical overview of d6 vsd12'' after the game.

[Orm-Embar]

Haha. Hah. Hahaha. The more I read this the more I feel like it needs to take place in some kind of dwarven underground city ruled by a powerful magical artifact with an iron fist. Dungeons and Paranoia.

This sounds like a fun campaign.

[BWR]

So I've been considering running a new type of game lately, probably just a few side adventures, in a world where magic wasn't safe. Where dimension dooring into solid rock was a death sentence, and where animals could be summoned in mid-air, and where swallowing a shrunken boulder and then having the duration wear down would certainly rip you in half.

My question is, has anyone here had any fun playing such a game? What were the implications that made the world different from the standard 3.5 world? And what spells were affected/used in new interesting ways?

So basically you're going to be playing it like 2e? That's cool. We had a blast with 2e.

[pwykersotz]

So basically you're going to be playing it like 2e? That's cool. We had a blast with 2e.

Heh, yeah. I never did play 2e. I only started playing 5 years ago, and the group that introduced me played 3.5.

[Khedrac]

The problem as I see it is most of these safeties aren't there for the caster, but for those around him. Can't summon animals in mid-air? That's to prevent casters from summoning whales on top of their opponents and crushing them to death. The change makes the world much, much more dangerous for people who are not casters and can't have detect magic going all the time to detect shrunken boulders in their food.
This - so very much this.

You just gave the casters so many more "no save - just die" spells. Even just looking at Summon Monster 1 which is limited to small creatures the potential for summoning a Celestial Giant Fire Beetle 15' above an opponent at level 1 is going to ruin so many opponents' days.

At SM3 you have the large creatures - and get to start dropping bison on people - do you really want to make casters that much more broken?

The effect on teleports will be small. Dimension Dooring out of the dungeon? Add a bit of height for safety and pre-cast Feather Fall - risk removed. On the flip side if you have Anticipate Teleport then anyone porting in is going to hit a solid object - guaranteed.

[pwykersotz]

This - so very much this.

You just gave the casters so many more "no save - just die" spells. Even just looking at Summon Monster 1 which is limited to small creatures the potential for summoning a Celestial Giant Fire Beetle 15' above an opponent at level 1 is going to ruin so many opponents' days.

At SM3 you have the large creatures - and get to start dropping bison on people - do you really want to make casters that much more broken?

The effect on teleports will be small. Dimension Dooring out of the dungeon? Add a bit of height for safety and pre-cast Feather Fall - risk removed. On the flip side if you have Anticipate Teleport then anyone porting in is going to hit a solid object - guaranteed.

Definitely sure. As I posted earlier, this isn't about balance or the lack thereof. It's about playing a concept, and having fun with it. The whole point is to have casters do lots of broken nasty things and see how it affects the world as a whole.

Would there be more wizards? Less? Higher or lower average level? More or less magic items? How would paranoia function in normal society? Are there stigmas against casters? What about magical creatures? Etc, etc.

Basically, it's all just for fun. Like trying to take on Asmodeus with a party of four Healers. :smalltongue:

Edit: Technically, Orcus might fit that bill better...

[Lord Vukodlak]

There's safeties and abuse.

no summoning a creature in mid air isn't a safety rule. Its an abuse rule. Otherwise you could summon heavy creatures in the air and kill powerful creatures by dropping things on them.

Fly having a built in featherfall when it expires or is dispelled is a safety rule. As is being shunted when you dimension door into a solid object.

I don't think they're anything wrong with removing safety rules, but removing the abuse rules will lead to insanity. If that is an acceptable consequence more power to you.

[pwykersotz]

There's safeties and abuse.

no summoning a creature in mid air isn't a safety rule. Its an abuse rule. Otherwise you could summon heavy creatures in the air and kill powerful creatures by dropping things on them.

Fly having a built in featherfall when it expires or is dispelled is a safety rule. As is being shunted when you dimension door into a solid object.

I don't think they're anything wrong with removing safety rules, but removing the abuse rules will lead to insanity. If that is an acceptable consequence more power to you.

It's a fair point to consider, but at the point where you're able to Charm a stranger into leaping from a tall building because you've assured them there is a soft landing and it's for the greater good to try, is there really a line there anymore?

I ask that seriously, at what point do you draw the line between abuse and lack of safety, when lack of safety alone can lead to so much?

[Lord Vukodlak]

It's a fair point to consider, but at the point where you're able to Charm a stranger into leaping from a tall building because you've assured them there is a soft landing and it's for the greater good to try, is there really a line there anymore? No because you convinced them there's a soft landing bypassing the never obeying a "obviously harmful order" Removing the abuse rule would mean you could order them to perform "suicidal or obviously harmful orders" without tricking them or convincing them it was worth it.


I ask that seriously, at what point do you draw the line between abuse and lack of safety, when lack of safety alone can lead to so much?

The obvious black line would be. Safety rules are intended to protect the caster or his allies. Such as the fly spell having a built in featherfall should it be dispelled.

Abuse rules are intended to protect others and limit the effectiveness of the spell. Such as the rules preventing you from turning summoning a one ton earth elemental above a creature and killing it instantly with the massive falling damage.

[Dimers]

If I were a caster with those rules, I'd memorize a lot of light to cast on monsters' eyes and create water for their lungs.

[Gavinfoxx]

I cast Summon Bigger Fish!

[Troacctid]

Summon Instrument, make a tuba appear inside your chest. Seems okay for a cantrip.

[Telok]

Casting Light on someone's eyes was a valid tactic in AD&D, there was a save to resist it of course. Light was a better first level spell for the magic-users than Magic Missile.

You ought to bring back the bits where Fireball fills a volume instead of it's area and electricity spells turn into AoEs centered around their origin if they are cast underwater.

Other players don't automatically know where Invisible characters are, cloud spells move with the wind, illusions of things you haven't seen before are weak and easily seen through. When using spells like Blink and Plane Shift it was important to know what was on the other plane where you were going to end up.

I recall a trick once, some wizard shifted a basilisk to the etherial plane, tied it to this one room, a kept his treasure in there. Effective, very very cruel, effective.