Guessing Gender of the Order’s most powerful member? [Archive]

Qaanol

2014-03-15, 11:07 AM

I’m sure everyone else has already realized this and probably discussed it to death a million times, but I only just noticed:

We still do not know what gender the High Priest of Hel is. That spirit could be male, it could be female, it could even defy the binary division of gender altogether!
Regardless, in my head-canon the answer shall remain “female”.
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Gift Jeraff

2014-03-15, 11:16 AM

Durkon is probably male.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-03-15, 11:23 AM

Durkon is biologically male. I imagine his gender would depend on the gender of the spirit currently in control of him. I think he's probably a male as well.

Seto

2014-03-15, 11:54 AM

Well, the High Priest of Hel is referred to by Hel as "High Priest" and not "High Priestess", so, yeah... male.

NerdyKris

2014-03-15, 12:47 PM

Seto

2014-03-15, 01:01 PM

Where is this "Is the vampire a different gender than it's host body" thing coming from? Is there some reason people are determined to find a non cis-gendered character in the comic by any means possible?

Apparently :smalltongue:

Also, why on earth would you think it's female? Given literally zero evidence to the contrary, wouldn't you just assume that it's the same gender as it's host ?

Because that's just the problem with any gender identity related (or sexual orientation related, for that matter) question : the fact that we "just assume" is kind of a prejudice because it conveys the message that there is a norm, and then abnormality. Sure, cisgender or heterosexual people are the most numerous and thus could be seen as defining a de facto norm - but this is a sensitive topic, so it's better to be careful and just not assume anything.

So "literally zero evidence" either way means that the question can be asked, but not answered. Sure, it's not of great interest, but nonetheless legitimate.
Except that in this case I'm arguing that there IS evidence ("Priest" and not "Priestess")

CarpeGuitarrem

2014-03-15, 01:04 PM

I'm pretty sure Belkar is male.

Grey Watcher

2014-03-15, 01:05 PM

Where is this "Is the vampire a different gender than it's host body" thing coming from? Is there some reason people are determined to find a non cis-gendered character in the comic by any means possible?

Setting aside the strong probability that the OP was kidding around, I guess it's just fun to speculate?

Also, why on earth would you think it's female? Given literally zero evidence to the contrary, wouldn't you just assume that it's the same gender as it's host?

Strictly speaking, you could make the argument the other way around. Why would you assume it is the same gender, given that there's zero evidence? (Although, I suppose Hel calling Durkula a priest rather than a priestess probably does count.)

Zmeoaice

2014-03-15, 01:05 PM

I'm guessing spirits and souls themselves in OoTS don't have a gender.

Mad Humanist

2014-03-15, 01:15 PM

I'm guessing spirits and souls themselves in OoTS don't have a gender.

Also vampires can "breed" without having any specifically male or female equipment anyway. I guess the question is would the vampire identify as a male or female, but as it sticks its fangs into my neck and its beard goes up my nostrils I'm not likely to care that much.

NerdyKris

2014-03-15, 01:16 PM

The thing is, at some point you're just searching through the comic demanding a gender identity or sexuality for every character, even when it's irrelevant to the character's actions. For starters, the vampire is a demon. Male and female would be a meaningless statement for it. It's focusing on a character's gender identity as a means of defining the character, which can only be done using gender stereotypes. Otherwise, the answer would be "They act the way they act, regardless of what gender they see themselves as."

If the character is non cis-gendered, and this is mentioned, okay. But wanting a definite statement of gender for a character that for all purposes appears to be and responds to male pronouns is the same as the people who demanded Vaarsuvius's gender so they could "understand" the character.

There's a line between being inclusive and the Burger King Kids Club (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/BKkidsclubgang.png). It's around the point where you're just checking off minorities on a bingo card instead of creating characters that happen to have that trait.

Seto

2014-03-15, 01:20 PM

Agreed. But this is the same forum who wants to know if Tsukiko has a last name, so...

137beth

2014-03-15, 04:56 PM

I don't believe any assertions that High Priest of Hel is the order's most powerful member. But then there is currently another thread for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335986)....

I'm more curious about Spiky's gender.

CaDzilla

2014-03-15, 05:20 PM

Vampires have the same biological sex as the person they once were, because there are half-vampires.Gender depends on what the HPoH wants. Although the original creator referred to him with a masculine title. Although there is always the possibility that he just gave HPoH the name Brother. Speaking of which, shouldn't the name of this vampire be Brother Thundershield?

ORione

2014-03-15, 06:45 PM

I'm not sure that it's accurate to call HPoH a member of the Order.

KillianHawkeye

2014-03-15, 07:42 PM

Didn't we have this thread already? :smallconfused:

oppyu

2014-03-15, 07:53 PM

Pretty sure Elan's a dude.

TheSummoner

2014-03-15, 08:03 PM

Nah, it's pretty clear cut. Roy is male. Except for that one time...

He's the leader, thus he has power over the other members of the order. Their power is his power. Also, "Except for that one time" was too good to pass up.

Domino Quartz

2014-03-15, 11:48 PM

137beth

2014-03-16, 01:17 AM

Vladier

2014-03-16, 04:42 AM

Yea, I don't think Roy's gender ever changed.
Not that it matters, since the most powerful member of the order has always been male, every since he first picked up a pair of small-sized daggers and threw them at the soft, unprotected flesh of a human.

So, Belkar was female until 270 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)? Because that's the first time in the comic when he actually throws his daggers (which became small-sized only after transition to 3.5, mind you) at the soft and sort of unprotected flesh of Miko.

BenjCano

2014-03-16, 08:16 AM

Well, the High Priest of Hel is referred to by Hel as "High Priest" and not "High Priestess", so, yeah... male.

This. Seems to settle it.

Anarion

2014-03-16, 08:32 AM

I'm pretty sure it was his biological sex that changed that one time.

I dunno. He may not have intended it, but he did stop thinking with the trouser titan and very quickly picked up a new perspective on a lot of his actions.

Also, to the OP, we don't and probably will never know V's gender.

cobaltstarfire

2014-03-16, 10:31 AM

I dunno. He may not have intended it, but he did stop thinking with the trouser titan and very quickly picked up a new perspective on a lot of his actions.

He gained a new perspective, and changed his behavior accordingly, that doesn't really change his gender at all, even if his sex was for a short while female.

Zmeoaice

2014-03-16, 12:38 PM

Well, the High Priest of Hel is referred to by Hel as "High Priest" and not "High Priestess", so, yeah... male.

I think priest is gender neutral.

Anarion

2014-03-16, 01:08 PM

He gained a new perspective, and changed his behavior accordingly, that doesn't really change his gender at all, even if his sex was for a short while female.

His biological sex and his mindset were both altered. Unless we're strictly defining gender as his personal label (which I agree never changed from "male"), I think the belt did affect his gender.

I think priest is gender neutral.

It's a masculine term in a masculine/feminine pair.

ChristianSt

2014-03-17, 08:17 AM

I think priest is gender neutral.

No. I think you mean that "most people use priest to mean a priest/priestess of any gender". But since it there is the word pair priest/priestess, it is not a gender neutral term in itself [although as I stated it might be used to represent that]. So I wouldn't use "High Priest of Hel" as a proof of being male, but saying it is gender neutral is just wrong.

It would be just like saying "he" is gender neutral for third person singular, because some(/most?) people use it to address a generic person (without necessary meaning to address a gender of that person), but it doesn't make it gender neutral. [And yes, if I write something I default to "he" most of the times, but that is because imo there isn't really a satisfying option* and most likely because of my own gender.]

*yet - I know there are some options (like singular they or ze/zis or something like that), but right now they just don't sound right enough to me that I would really use any of them.

TRH

2014-03-17, 09:50 AM

So, Belkar was female until 270 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)? Because that's the first time in the comic when he actually throws his daggers (which became small-sized only after transition to 3.5, mind you) at the soft and sort of unprotected flesh of Miko.

I'm pretty sure Miko was wearing armor, so you can't call her flesh "unprotected". Does this mean that Belkar is a girl even now?

Topus

2014-03-17, 10:58 AM

I think that gender should mean nothing to an undead creature, given that they don't have to mate and reproduce and they don't have a society as they are unique creatures. They may have a sex, because they have a human body, but it means nothing.

The Oni

2014-03-17, 11:05 AM

^ Xykon seems to suggest otherwise. Most everything he does exudes machismo or at least implies a fairly solid gender identity (including his weird reaction to Tsukiko's advances); of course, that probably has a lot to do with a really high Charisma score. An Int-based caster-turned-lich might be more like Vaarsuvius.

Topus

2014-03-17, 11:13 AM

What Xykon does is unrelated to male or female gender, he simply is a psycotic killer machine, but i don't think it is typically male or female, it's just evil, aggressive and uncaring. Unless you want to consider this as an inherently male behaviour.

BenjCano

2014-03-17, 11:13 AM

*yet - I know there are some options (like singular they or ze/zis or something like that), but right now they just don't sound right enough to me that I would really use any of them.

As a complete tangent, ever notice how it's sometimes acceptable to use it as a pronoun when referring to a person?

"Are you having a boy or a girl? It's a boy!"
"When the baby's born, where is it going to sleep?"
"Who is it? It's me!"

Keltest

2014-03-17, 11:20 AM

As a complete tangent, ever notice how it's sometimes acceptable to use it as a pronoun when referring to a person?

"Are you having a boy or a girl? It's a boy!"
"When the baby's born, where is it going to sleep?"
"Who is it? It's me!"

People are weird.

The first two at least make a little sense, since there is a decent period of time where you cant actually tell, and the baby isn't an independent life form yet (I really don't care when you consider it to be "alive", if you cut it out it will die), so it would be like asking whether your arm is a boy or a girl arm.

Alternatively, People are really weird.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-03-17, 01:51 PM

People are weird.

The first two at least make a little sense, since there is a decent period of time where you cant actually tell, and the baby isn't an independent life form yet (I really don't care when you consider it to be "alive", if you cut it out it will die), so it would be like asking whether your arm is a boy or a girl arm.

Alternatively, People are really weird.

Well, when you consider that you are bring this up on a thread that was originally about the gender of the High Priest of Hel that wandered off to this point... I would go with the latter option.

ChristianSt

2014-03-17, 01:55 PM

Well, when you consider that you are bring this up on a thread that was originally about the gender of the High Priest of Hel that wandered off to this point... I would go with the latter option.

Since the topic of the thread is a gender debate, I wouldn't consider it that far off topic (if even). At least it should be in the better half of the threads in this forum :smallwink:

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-03-17, 02:03 PM

Since the topic of the thread is a gender debate, I wouldn't consider it that far off topic (if even). At least it should be in the better half of the threads in this forum :smallwink:

Ok, for this thread, it's still largely related to the original subject. Still "better half" is only praise if you compare it to everything in that "worse half". That can be my definite proof of absolute weirdness.

crayzz

2014-03-17, 04:42 PM

The thing is, at some point you're just searching through the comic demanding a gender identity or sexuality for every character, even when it's irrelevant to the character's actions.

[snip]

There's a line between being inclusive and the Burger King Kids Club. It's around the point where you're just checking off minorities on a bingo card instead of creating characters that happen to have that trait.

This is a wellspring of contradiction. You criticize people for questioning gender when's irrelevant, and later specify that the character should "happen to have that trait."

Nilehus

2014-03-17, 04:56 PM

I don't really see the contradiction. Nerdykris is just saying that some people force specific traits, backgrounds, whatever on a character when it is unnecessary.

What does the character need to accomplish in the story? What traits would make them behave in such a way? What kind of a background could lead to someone developing thosr traits?

They're saying, if I'm reading this correctly, that skipping all of that, and putting in a character just for the sake of having a representative of a minority, or assigning them traits based on no evidence whatsoever just for the sake of having them, is a bad practice.

The High Priest of Hel has shown no sexuality or gender identity. At the moment, it exists to serve Hel. No more, no less.

Not everything needs a deep, dark backstory. I see the spirit as primarily a tool for Durkon's character development. I'd be surprised if it got fleshed out beyond what is necessary for that to happen.

Qaanol

2014-03-17, 05:05 PM

So, Belkar was female until 270 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)? Because that's the first time in the comic when he actually throws his daggers (which became small-sized only after transition to 3.5, mind you) at the soft and sort of unprotected flesh of Miko.

Well, Belkar threw one dagger at a human in comic 85 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), so clearly there was a 185-strip transition period.

Zeb

2014-03-17, 06:18 PM

I thought Mr Scruffy was male, its Mr Scruffy not Mrsor Ms Scruffy.

dtilque

2014-03-20, 02:56 PM

I thought Mr Scruffy was male, its Mr Scruffy not Mrsor Ms Scruffy.

You beat me to it (suggesting the Scruffmeister, that is). But his name may be misleading. It's a common trope to have a supposedly male animal, especially a cat, turn out to be female. There's probably a tvtropes page about it, although I'm not going to waste time hunting it down.

Zmeoaice

2014-03-20, 04:14 PM

You beat me to it (suggesting the Scruffmeister, that is). But his name may be misleading. It's a common trope to have a supposedly male animal, especially a cat, turn out to be female. There's probably a tvtropes page about it, although I'm not going to waste time hunting it down.

This one.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourTomcatIsPregnant

Keltest

2014-03-20, 04:18 PM

This one.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourTomcatIsPregnant

If what that says about determining cats' genders is correct, it kinda freaks me out about how easily I can tell my tomcat is a tomcat.

Codex

2014-04-01, 09:20 AM

This whole things been settled, we've seen the actual spirit and it's male.

Auburn Bright

2014-04-01, 05:23 PM

Haha, thread title threw me off.

I really wondered how you could not know Banjo's gender!

wumpus

2014-04-02, 01:35 PM

I'm guessing spirits and souls themselves in OoTS don't have a gender.

This doesn't begin to explain why Sara Greenhilt's rack [evidence enough in itself] bothers Roy so much. No, I'm pretty sure that spirits retain their gender after death. Presumably the planes themselves don't have a gender, so I'd assume it is one of the many things you lose as you ascend the mountain. Sara and Roy still have a gender, and I'm pretty sure Horace Greenhilt (who has ascended a few more levels) still has his.

JSSheridan

2014-04-02, 03:23 PM

Is gender relevant to a vampire?

Keltest

2014-04-02, 06:10 PM

This doesn't begin to explain why Sara Greenhilt's rack [evidence enough in itself] bothers Roy so much. No, I'm pretty sure that spirits retain their gender after death. Presumably the planes themselves don't have a gender, so I'd assume it is one of the many things you lose as you ascend the mountain. Sara and Roy still have a gender, and I'm pretty sure Horace Greenhilt (who has ascended a few more levels) still has his.

why would it need to explain that? Roy clearly thought of his mom as a matronly woman, not as an *ahem* active teenager. If you heard about your parents going out dating, you would probably feel uncomfortable thinking about it as well.

137beth

2014-04-02, 06:17 PM

The Giant is male. I'm pretty sure he is the most powerful character in the strip, being the author and all.

Codex

2014-04-02, 08:15 PM

The Giant is male. I'm pretty sure he is the most powerful character in the strip, being the author and all.
This. This is pure logic.

Bulldog Psion

2014-04-02, 10:34 PM

I doubt that a spirit composed of pure negative energy would have either a gender or a sex. I know it's difficult for a human to wrap its mind around the concept, but I think that even gender, though not directly tied to sex, is ultimately tied to our meat-and-chemicals physicality. A hypothetical being operating on a different level, without most of the biological imperatives lurking under the majority of our thoughts and traits, would be literally genderless, IMO.

Cavenskull

2014-04-02, 11:58 PM

The Giant is male. I'm pretty sure he is the most powerful character in the strip, being the author and all.

This. This is pure logic.

Panel 11 begs to disagree (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html). :smallwink:

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-04-03, 05:34 AM

Panel 11 begs to disagree (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html). :smallwink:

Are either the Giant or Sir Thumb really part of the Order? Suggestions like Banjo I thought were pushing it a little, but these...

A Tad Insane

2014-04-03, 02:55 PM

The vamped body of Durkon is male, as it has the sexual dimorphisms of a male, and has been referred to with male pronouns

The mental project/spirit of Durkon is male, because he let himself be referred to with male pronouns and has never objected, and it has been established that spirits have genitalia matching what they view themselves as.

The spirit of the vampire technically has no gender, being a malignant entity of pure negative energy (I like the way that sounds), but would probably identify as male, considering both the body it is possessing and the spirit it's dominating are both male.

@the thread derailment; it was off the rails since the OP switch from Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator to Durkula

tassaron

2014-04-08, 04:43 PM

Wow, a lot of people are taking this obvious joke thread very seriously. :smalleek: It's clearly just a misdirection joke (trying to trick you into thinking it's about Vaarsuvius).

Incidentally though, if you are searching desperately for a transgender character in OOTS, I've always assumed that the ogre they took the girdle from back in book 1 was probably trans. At least, I can't imagine why else someone would be wearing that as part of (presumably) their normal daily routine. :smallconfused:

A Tad Insane

2014-04-08, 05:00 PM

Wow, a lot of people are taking this obvious joke thread very seriously. :smalleek: It's clearly just a misdirection joke (trying to trick you into thinking it's about Vaarsuvius).

1. About half the comments contain a joke about how neither Durkon or V are the most powerful memebers

2. By Pelor, I smite thee, foul necromancer!!