I'm a spider! And now?

[Inevitability]

For an upcoming dungeon crawl campaign, I was thinking of playing an hairy spider (monsters of Faerun + this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a) web enhancement)

It seems like a really unique character to me, but I'm stuck on the class. What class would you recommend for this poor spider?

Here are the stats for a hairy spider PC:

-10 STR, +4 DEX, -- INT, -8 CHA
Vermin
Fine size (+8 on attack rolls, +8 AC, +16 on hide checks -16 on grapple checks)
20 ft. base land speed, 10 ft. climb speed
Bite attack that deals 1d2 damage + strength modifier + poison (DC 11, primary and secondary damage 1 dex)
Immunity to poison
+4 racial bonus on hide checks, +6 racial bonus on jump checks, +12 racial bonus on spot checks
+0 LA


So how can I play to this character's strengths? Are there ways to remove the mindlessness? How would I roleplay it? Also, the symbiotic template from savage species may be allowed. If it is, can you think of anything as a host for this?

I'd like to hear what you think.

[Wacky89]

did you get to have a int score? Did you get awakened or did you homebrew it so you can have a int score? Because without it you would be mindless and can't take classes, feats, skills etc.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/master-of-flies/

Awaken Vermin on 9th level, get a deal with your gm so that as a backstory you were a pet spider to a master of flies. The best I can come up with right now.

Good classes would be Rogue, Warlock and other classes not dependant on limbs able to grab onto stuff

[Kazudo]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8441606&postcount=106) might inspire you a tad.

[Flickerdart]

Is the LA actually listed as 0, or just unlisted? Because if it's unlisted, that's an LA of -- which is unplayable, and given that it's a mindless monster, that is the likelier thing.

If you want to be a spider, you can be a were-spider (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a).

[Kazudo]

Is the LA actually listed as 0, or just unlisted? Because if it's unlisted, that's an LA of -- which is unplayable, and given that it's a mindless monster, that is the likelier thing.

If you want to be a spider, you can be a were-spider.

You and I may have had the same idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Wacky89]

my idea does however give you 2 racial hd of vermin, which is not good :)

[Inevitability]

No, I didn't got an intelligence score. I think the symbiotic template is mandatory on this one. Or, like you suggested, the Master of Flies solution. I'll check with the DM.

Flickerdart, the web enhancement gives the spider, in fact LA +0. The other Faerunian (?) spider, the sword spider gains LA +3, despite being mindless too.

We start at ECL 2, but tier 4 and lower can gestalt with a tier 5 class, and tier 3 can gestalt with aristocrat, warrior or commoner. You can also use one side of the gestalt for LA, RHD or savage species progressions.

EDIT: Also, the warlock doesn't seem like a good class for this critter. -8 charisma isn't very nice.

[Parvum]

I really want to tell you to be a barbarian. It could be a beautiful thing. But if you really want to play to its strengths (sigh) you'd probably be looking at a sneaky rogue or something.

Or, if you want something different, try a Dragonfire Adept. None of their abilities get weaker for smaller characters. Plus there's an invocation that lets you take any humanoid shape, so if people complain about you not having arms or whatever just tell them it's only a problem until you get that invocation. Whether you actually take it or not, well, that's up to you...

Dragonspider Adept is my vote.

[Wacky89]

a cleric/favored soul spider could be funny too, sitting on big bad fighter and spam healing/buffing him. You could have full cover inside his armor

[Inevitability]

Dragonspider Adept is my vote.

First, that is a pretty awesome line of text. The -8 charisma penalty just seems a bit... bad for a charisma-based invocation class. Or is the charisma not very important for dragonfire spider adepts? (Don't know much about them)

[Silverbit]

First, that is a pretty awesome line of text. The -8 charisma penalty just seems a bit... bad for a charisma-based invocation class. Or is the charisma not very important for dragonfire spider adepts? (Don't know much about them)

I've played a few, and it's really not important. Only the invocations that need a save use it, and they're not all that important and can be skipped anyway. The most important stat for a Dragonfire Adept is Con, it powers their breath weapon. It's a fun class :smallsmile:.

Edit: may I suggest taking a look at the Blackspawn Lurker? It's a dragony-spidery thing, might help explain why a random spider is intelligent and can breathe fire.
Image:
http://s28.postimg.org/kc1uuirv1/image.jpg

[Flickerdart]

You'll need an Intelligence score before you can take classes; your best bet is probably a template that makes you a Magical Beast.

[ShurikVch]

To get Int score, you can try to use Awaken Vermin, then slap Petitioner template on top to cut down 1 rHD
Result will be something like this:

Exceptional Abyssal Petitioner Awakened Hairy Spider
— -10 Strength, +4 Dexterity, (-8+1d3) Charisma.
—Fine size. +8 bonus to Armor Class, +8 bonus on attack rolls, +16 bonus on Hide checks, -16 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 1/8 those of Medium characters.
—Space/Reach: 1/2 feet/0 feet.
—A base land speed is 20 feet, climb 10 feet.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Chaotic: have the Chaotic subtype.
—Evil: have the Evil subtype.
—Extraplanar: native to the Abyss.
—Racial Hit Dice: An begins with two levels of outsider, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +3, and Will +3.
—Racial Skills: An outsider levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Jump and Spot. Have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks, +6 on Hide checks, and +12 on Spot checks.
—Racial Feats: An outsider levels give it two feats.
—Special Attacks: Poison (Fort DC 11, temporal 1 Dex/1 Dex)
—Special Qualities: Acidic vapor; resistance to acid 10 and fire 10; immunity to electricity, poison and mind-influencing effects.
—Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons.
—Level adjustment +0.

[Wacky89]

why does petitioner make it only 1 racial HD?

[ShurikVch]

why does petitioner make it only 1 racial HD? Actually, 2 (3 before petitioner).
Sorry if it was unclear, English is not my language

[Wacky89]

I think the 1/8 hd of hairy spider would be transformed to class hd. Awaken would give you 2 racial hd tho, anyways that template how would one aquire it? I dont think it was meant for pcs

[Wacky89]

I got an great idea to a class.

Warblade

I was also thinking about Swashbuckler 3 / Duskblade X or just plain Duskblade.

since you can get a really good int score if your awakener has Maximize and empower spell-like ability.
You also only have 1 attack which maneuvers are great for.

3d6 = 18 * 1,5 = 27 intelligence, that's one clever spider!

[Inevitability]

The problem with warblade is that the weapons you're swinging around will be 1d4-your abysmal strength modifier at best. Not to mention that you'll have to explain how a spider is holding a greataxe.
Though it would probably open up multiweapon fighting.

*Evil plan awakens in mind*

Who even cares about dual-wielding rangers? I got an octa-wielding one right here! Fear the power of seventeen attacks a round!

[Flickerdart]

To get Int score, you can try to use Awaken Vermin, then slap Petitioner template on top to cut down 1 rHD
Result will be something like this:
Petitioners cannot leave the divine realm they inhabit, and cannot have any skills or feats. So that's not really a good plan.

[Wacky89]

you would use your bite attack ofc. You could ask your GM if you can use Shadow Blade for natural attack. It doesnt matter too much, even if you did 1d2-4, it would still be 1 damage and then you add whatever maneuver that gives alot of extra D6 of damage

[Inevitability]

You know, I may seriously be considering the octa-wielder.
+8 size bonus on attack rolls, with a 22 starting dexterity, full BAB and weapon finesse, minus the penalty for octa-wielding will give me +11 on my attack rolls. Every attack will deal 1 damage, save for the bite attack, which will also inflict some weak poison. Assuming my foe has 15 AC, I'll hit 17 times out of 20... So I'll hit about 14 times per round, having about 14 DPR. Not bad at first level... Also, the idea of a tiny spider jumping on his foe, stabbing him sixteen times, then biting him once for good measure, and the foe falling over bleeding to death.

[ShurikVch]

Petitioners cannot leave the divine realm they inhabit, and cannot have any skills or feats. So that's not really a good plan.
From MotP:

Exceptional Petitioners
The deities may choose particular servants for specific tasks who may remember something of their previous selves. These exceptional petitioners retain the feats and skills that they had in life but are otherwise limited as the other petitioners of their plane are.
And 3.5 update:

PETITIONERS
Petitioners tied to specific planes in the Great Wheel have the following special qualities. They otherwise follow the guidelines in Chapter 9 of Manual of the Planes.
...
Abyss: Electricity and poison immunity; fire resistance 10, acid resistance 10; acidic vapor, no planar commitment (as described in Manual of the Planes).

[Ziegander]

You know, I may seriously be considering the octa-wielder.
+8 size bonus on attack rolls, with a 22 starting dexterity, full BAB and weapon finesse, minus the penalty for octa-wielding will give me +11 on my attack rolls. Every attack will deal 1 damage, save for the bite attack, which will also inflict some weak poison. Assuming my foe has 15 AC, I'll hit 17 times out of 20... So I'll hit about 14 times per round, having about 14 DPR. Not bad at first level... Also, the idea of a tiny spider jumping on his foe, stabbing him sixteen times, then biting him once for good measure, and the foe falling over bleeding to death.

Damage Reduction.

[Nihilarian]

Warlocks and DFA can be built without charisma, if you know what you're doing.

Overall, though, I'd go with a sneaky character or a psionic character. Or both!

[BWR]

Petitioners cannot leave the divine realm they inhabit, and cannot have any skills or feats. So that's not really a good plan.

Sure they can. One of them made it to Factol of the Guvners.

[Flickerdart]

From MotP:

And 3.5 update:
Does the Abyss have any deities? And if it does, why are they choosing this random spider as a special servant?

[Wacky89]

I was just looking at a hairy spider character. But then I got thinking, how would you have anything on you? You can't really grab stuff in your backpack :D Any ideas?

[ShurikVch]

I was just looking at a hairy spider character. But then I got thinking, how would you have anything on you? You can't really grab stuff in your backpack :D Any ideas?
If you mean usable equipment, there are list of possible stuff for pets from WotC site:

One skull cap or helm
One pair of lenses or goggles
One collar
One saddle blanket or vest
One saddle or jacket
One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches
One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders
One pair foreleg bracers
One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts
Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves
One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts Sure you can find something
Also, don't forget about Gloves of Man.
If you about various misc. items, maybe old good Portable hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole)?


Does the Abyss have any deities? And if it does, why are they choosing this random spider as a special servant? Let's see:
Abyss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyss_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29):

6 - Realm of a Million Eyes, home to the Great Mother, Princess of Beholders.
66 - The Demonweb Pits, home of Lolth, queen of spiders and principal deity of evil drow, particularly in Menzoberranzan.
142 - Lifebane, realm of the god Chemosh from the Dragonlance setting.
193 - Vulgarea, realm of the foxwoman goddess Eshebala.
241 - Palpitatia, realm of the bugbear gods Grankhul and Skiggaret.
300 - Feng-Tu, realm of the Chinese gods Tou Mu and Lu Yueh.
333 - The Broken Scale, realm of the god Hiddukel from the Dragonlance setting.
399 - The Worm Realm, realm of the gnome god Urdlen.
487 - Lair of the Beast and Mansion of the Rake, realm of the vampire god Kanchelsis.
524 - Shatterstone, realm of the ogre god Vaprak.
643 - Caverns of the Skull, realm of the Black Earth Mother Kali, the goddess of destruction. Note number 66 :smallwink:

[Wacky89]

where are gloves of man from?

[ShurikVch]

where are gloves of man from?
Savage Species

[Ravens_cry]

Ermigerd, I am now imagining a spider wearing big googly steampunk brass and leather goggles.
It is glorious.:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Let's see:
Abyss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyss_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29):
Note number 66 :smallwink:
Why does Lolth want a tiny CR nothing hairy spider as a servant?

[Vizzerdrix]

Why does Lolth want a tiny CR nothing hairy spider as a servant?

Because his/her nickname is Spanish Inquisition.

And even Lolth needs to keep an eye on those pesky drow clerics.

[Honest Tiefling]

I can't be of much help for the mechanical aspect, but might I suspect looking up the portia spider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_(genus)) for inspiration? Real life spider that uses wind to its advantage, studies its prey, camouflages and mimics the movement of their prey on their own webs to trick them into thinking there's a snack or a mate there. Of course, it would definitely need a sneaky class.

[Agent 451]

Ermigerd, I am now imagining a spider wearing big googly steampunk brass and leather goggles.
It is glorious.:smallbiggrin:

While not exactly what you were looking for, it fits the criteria!

http://www.bloodyloud.com/wp-content/gallery/dennis-medry/dennis-medry-spider_man_steampunk-724x1024.jpg

[VoxRationis]

Spiders have no opposable thumbs, and even if you strapped the weapons to its limbs, you can't attack with all of your appendages equally like that, since the spider has to STAND on some of its limbs (two if you're being really generous, four if you're being kind of generous, six if you're being realistic).

[Inevitability]

Spiders have no opposable thumbs, and even if you strapped the weapons to its limbs, you can't attack with all of your appendages equally like that, since the spider has to STAND on some of its limbs (two if you're being really generous, four if you're being kind of generous, six if you're being realistic).

Leap attack FTW. :smalltongue:

But seriously, the idea of an invocation-using class sounds good. I'll take a look at it. They get an at-will ability that isn't dependant on size, they get some neat invocations... Sounds good.

[ShurikVch]

Why does Lolth want a tiny CR nothing hairy spider as a servant? OK, then how about the Great Mother? Spider have eight eyes to replace... (Really, near any abyssal deity will fit. It's chaos - it mustn't be logical)


Spiders have no opposable thumbs, and even if you strapped the weapons to its limbs, you can't attack with all of your appendages equally like that, since the spider has to STAND on some of its limbs (two if you're being really generous, four if you're being kind of generous, six if you're being realistic). Gloves of Man 42000 gp
Arms of the Naga 56000 gp

Fiendish grafts:
Clawed Arm 50000 gp
Flexible Arm 27000 gp
Long Arm 5000 gp (no extra attacks, but +5 reach)

Hand of the Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handoftheMage) (900 gp) allow to "attack" at 30 ft. with fire, acid, poison, bombs, traps...

[Inevitability]

Well... the problem is that even a light item will almost put the spider at heavy encumbrance. Maybe I can talk the DM into counting a fine hand of the mage as weighing only 1/8 Ibs.

[ShurikVch]

Well... the problem is that even a light item will almost put the spider at heavy encumbrance. Maybe I can talk the DM into counting a fine hand of the mage as weighing only 1/8 Ibs.
Firstly, Shrink Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm).
Secondly, custom-made fine-sized equipment.

[Inevitability]

A shrink item cast by a 5th level wizard will cost 150 GP.
A permanency cast by an 11th level wizard will cost 8050 GP.

I may be able to shrink a few items to my size, but I'll have to let someone recast the spell every day. 8050 GP is just far to much for a second level character.

[Wacky89]

magic items auto adjusts to size as far as I know. So shrink item would be for mundane items, you could get some1 to craft stuff for a size fine.

[Wacky89]

this is what I have come up with so far:

Vermin 2 / Warblade 1

Stats (32 point buy):
4 Strength
22 Dexterity
14 Constitution
27 Intelligence (3d6 Maximized and Empowered)
12 Wisdom
4 Charisma (1d3 Maximized and Empowered)

Special Qualities:
Immune Poison
Immune Mind-affecting
Darkvision 60ft

Feats:
Flaw: Metal Intolerance
Flaw: Shaky
Trait: Quick
Trait: Absent-Minded
HD1: Education
Flaw: Martial Study (Shadow Hand: Clinging Shadow Strike)
Flaw: Shadow Blade
HD3: Knowledge Devotion/Weapon Finesse (Haven't decided yet)

Skills: Knowledge skills for identifying creatures 6 ranks in each, Concentration 6, Hide 6, Move Silently 3, Spot 6, Tumble 6

Short Sword strapped to forleg
The damage would look like this:
+16 to hit with weapon finesse otherwise +7 with +1-5 to hit and damage
1+6+1d6 from punishing stance / 1+6+1d6+1-5

Stance:
Punishing Stance

Maneuvers:
Clinging Shadow Strike 1/encounter
Moment of Perfect Mind
Leading the Attack
Stone Bones

Equipment (Everything is size fine):
Short Sword
Masterworked Skill boosters (I'm not sure if you're able to buy stuff like this for a fine creature):
Concentration, Hide, Knowledge skills, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble
Handy Haversack (I have no clue how you would grab stuff from it?)
Leather Barding
Waterskin
Bedroll = Bedcircle? :D

[Inevitability]

I don't think the maximized+empowered awaken is going to be accepted. I mean, it'd be equal to a +16 modifier to intelligence, on a race without level adjustment. The DM may accept a lot, I don't think this is gonna work.

[Wacky89]

well you're eating 2 racial hd to get it, which can never be bought off or removed by any means.

[Inevitability]

It's a gestalt campaign. 2 RHD isn't difficult to overcome.

[ShurikVch]

A shrink item cast by a 5th level wizard will cost 150 GP.
A permanency cast by an 11th level wizard will cost 8050 GP.
Excuse me, but isn't it a bit... overpriced?
Shrink item is 3rd level, so 5x30=150
Permanency is 5th level, so 11x50=550
150+550=700 gp. What's I missing?

For 8000 gp you can get Belt of the Wide Earth (MIC, pg. 204), which is doubling your carrying capacity.
And, if wear any armor, Easy Travel enchantment (MIC, pg. 10) for 1500 gp allow to treat medium load as light
Tooth of Savnok (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060302b&page=1) (ToM) for 2000 gp allow to move at full speed while carrying medium or heavy load

Psionic Sinew (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/mainlist3.pl?name=Psionic_Sinew) can give +4 enhancement bonus to Strength score, while being technically free.
(And obligatory joke about Claws of the Bear: "I'm a bearlock now." (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/134))
http://www.gamerdna.com/public/images/user_image/set78/image/78827/Bearlock.jpg?1225157443
But there is a problem - Sinew bigger than Hairy Spider...

At later levels, various arm grafts can give sizable (and unnamed) bonus to Str:
Clawed Arm: "The grafted creature gains a +4 bonus to Strength when using the arm for any purpose, including attacking"... or carrying stuff? :smallwink:
Undead grafts (LM):
Enervating Arm 40000 gp, +4 Str
Paralyzing Arm 40000 gp, +4 Str
Weakening Arm 40000 gp, +4 Str
Zombie Arm 25000 gp, +2 Str

[Crake]

How did nobody notice that the LA listed was for familiars, not player characters? Look in monsters of faerun and they're recommended as familiars, not as players.

[Baroknik]

How has no one said totemist yet?
So you have 8 legs? Boy, do I have some boots for you!

[ShurikVch]

How did nobody notice that the LA listed was for familiars, not player characters? Look in monsters of faerun and they're recommended as familiars, not as players.
If something have LA, it can be played as PC
Familiars have no LA, they are spellcaster's class feature
And recommendations are just recommendations and nothing more. For example, (cohort) in LA. Literally nowhere can you found rule which forbid to use such creatures as PC. Because it's not forbidden, just not recommended.

[Inevitability]

Excuse me, but isn't it a bit... overpriced?
Shrink item is 3rd level, so 5x30=150
Permanency is 5th level, so 11x50=550
150+550=700 gp. What's I missing?


The fact that in order to permanency Shrink Item, you also need to expend 1500 XP. Hiring someone to cast a spell costs additional GP equal to five times the XP expended for the spell. 5 times 1500= 7500.
7500 + 550 = 8050 GP.

[Wacky89]

I was wondering, if you get to have flaws as one of these spiders. Would you get the bonus feats at first class level or at the first racial hd you get from awakened?

[John Longarrow]

Hmmm... This could be really really fun for you.

Start out as the familiar to a Drow Wizard.
Said Wizard awakend you and you started off as his friend (sorta).

Initial levels in an invocation using class (Dragonfire adept would be fun, as would Warlock).

As you progress a bit, you turn your "Friend" in to the temple priestess for plotting against the priesthood. You now become a spy for Lolth.

Toss on Lolth Touched for Bonus STR/CON...

Hey, a spider that spits bolts of energy and is a fanatical worshiper of Lolth seems very cool!!!

[Inevitability]

The rules say that you choose feats 'when creating a character'.

I'd say that applies to RHD. However, most of the time, a DM won't let you play a character without class levels.

[Wacky89]

would it be totally silly to have faerie mysteries? :D
I mean a exuberant sensual act, can just mean engaging emotionally with a person? Or am I mistaking?

[hemming]

You know, I may seriously be considering the octa-wielder.
+8 size bonus on attack rolls, with a 22 starting dexterity, full BAB and weapon finesse, minus the penalty for octa-wielding will give me +11 on my attack rolls. Every attack will deal 1 damage, save for the bite attack, which will also inflict some weak poison. Assuming my foe has 15 AC, I'll hit 17 times out of 20... So I'll hit about 14 times per round, having about 14 DPR. Not bad at first level... Also, the idea of a tiny spider jumping on his foe, stabbing him sixteen times, then biting him once for good measure, and the foe falling over bleeding to death.

Is he going to be doing unarmed (legged?) damage or will he have little 'foot blades'? If so, can he poison his own foot blades before battle?

[Inevitability]

I don't see how faerie mysteries would help, since your intelligence modifier is the same as your constitution modifier. Of course, with maximized empowered awaken, things are looking different...

[John Longarrow]

Is he going to be doing unarmed (legged?) damage or will he have little 'foot blades'? If so, can he poison his own foot blades before battle?

Just take the feats Improved Unarmed Strike then Supreme Unarmed Strike from ToB. The later give damage based on character level, not on size.

Would be totally cool for a spider to kick someone for 1d8 damage!

[hemming]

Just take the feats Improved Unarmed Strike then Supreme Unarmed Strike from ToB. The later give damage based on character level, not on size.

Would be totally cool for a spider to kick someone for 1d8 damage!

My mental image of the spider is now in a little karate outfit doing a jump kick :smallsmile:

I like the idea of foot blades just because the sound of the approaching spider is really creepy to think about

[ShurikVch]

Is he going to be doing unarmed (legged?) damage or will he have little 'foot blades'? If so, can he poison his own foot blades before battle?
:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

http://www.digitalartistdaily.com/users/3633/thm450/1347981012_AMKB-02.jpg

[NotScaryBats]

Why not make it a wizard?

I don't think Symbiotic would work, since you'd need a Guest 2 size categories smaller than your host, so unless you were, like, somehow bumped up from Fine, you're hosed.

[Inevitability]

Greetings, archive-delver! I wish you best of luck with whatever you're looking for down here in the nothingness of old threads.

If you see this message, feel free to send me a PM: I'd like that.

[Wacky89]

I was wondering, is there any way to get reach. So you dont have to each an attack of opportunity each time you attack some1. I've looked at feats(they all require size or humanoid), grafts (they're medium sized and looks wierd), prestige classes. Maybe there is a magic item that does it?