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ace rooster
2014-03-15, 07:37 PM
I have come up with a few house rules that I would like some opinion on. I do not have a group to experiment on, and wondered if people more experience than me had thoughts on my solutions to percieved problems.

Motivation:
3.5 strikes me as a very popular system because it has a very well developed magic system, married to a simple combat system. This makes it easy to start, and hard to master. It has the unfortunate down side that mundane combat cannot compete with magic done well. I have seen numerous attempts at fixes for fighter and the like, but they will never work well without changes to the system they work in. Giving mundanes better numbers is useless while casters can shut them down from any position. What mundanes need is some way to shut down enemies, that doesn't also shut themselves down (like grapples or readied actions do). While feats can do some of this, it should not be beyond any decent warrior to be able to disrupt someone spending 3+ seconds casting, from 30ft and a standing start (.3 seconds reaction, 2.7 seconds to reach them is not hard).

Note that what I am doing is not stopping casters from shutting down mundanes. However in my opinion a caster (not built for it) in melee with a melee guy should have pretty much already lost.

What I am trying to do is slightly nerf casting's in combat 'ease of use', while retaining all it's versitility. I am trying to make casting require tactical thought to use, (making the classes harder to play well) while giving mundanes a couple of extra tactical options, raising their ceiling.


Full round casting variant: All spells that normally take a standard action to cast now take a full round, swift action spells now take a move action. Immediate action spells are DM adjudicated (feather fall for example has to be an immediate). A move action can be included with a concentration check, (DC 10 plus spell level, but see later) but the spell still does not take effect until next round.
The thinking behind this is giving enemies time to force a concentration check, or just run away. It makes casting more difficult than just being out of Aoo range, and playing a caster require more thought than just spell selection. It does not lower a casters options, or rate of fire, so casters can't complain too much. Mundanes gain a huge amount from this simple change. A 16th level archer can now shut down 5 low level casters, by interupting their casting. A defensive build can now be viable, as casters find it more difficult to end encounters in a round, and staying alive beside a caster will now generally be enough for a melee character to shut them down, (if they do not already have buffs up).


Caster level based concentration variant 1: When a caster is asked for a concentration check with +spell level, we replace it with +caster level, but a fail does not automatically stop the spell. We assume that the spell was cast at the hightest caster level that would pass the check. The spell only fails if the caster level is reduced below the minimum required to cast the spell.

Caster level based concentration variant 2: When a caster is asked for a concentration check with +spell level, we replace it with +caster level, but a caster can lower the caster level for the check.
These are designed to make the checks asked of casters harder, in line with the rate they get skill ranks, while also applying penalties for lower level spells that do not make casting impossible. For a caster a concentration check should generally come at some cost. The general assumption is that a concentration check is a sign that a caster is having to get themselves out of trouble, rather than routine. Also it is reflection of the fact that high level spells are hard to cast, and any disruption is problematic.


Bab based dodge bonus variant: Every Character gets a dodge bonus to AC or half their Bab, rounding down. Probably reduce dragon natural armour to compensate, but otherwise should be easy enough to implement.

Damage effects by type variant: Different damage types do different effects. bludgeoning damage does half damage, but demands a fort save or be stunned. DC 10 + damage dealt (or possibly half, not sure on balance). A failure by 5 is 2 rounds, 10 is 5 rounds. Slashing does normal damage. Piercing does half damage but asks for a fort save against fatigue, then exaustion, then negative levels, (and yes, they stick).

Shield ability variant: Shields also add an ability modifier to AC, str for a heavy shield, dex for a light shield.

Defensive actions variant: In response to an attack, a character (/enemy) can make attempt to nullify it (in a similar way to mounted combat). They make an roll against the attack roll (D20 +bab + Shield bonus). If a character has multiple attacks they get multiple defensive actions, in a similar way. These work against touch attacks, but requires a magic shield to gain the shield bonus against magic attacks.
These are an attempt to give high level mundanes some way of avoiding attacks, in a way that scales at least to some extent, and benefits the sword and board style (at least to the extent that it is a valid defensive build, independant of class). Together with slowing down casters to the point where a defensive build is workable, this should give mundanes some control over the battlefield beyond the "kill it in one round" that is generally required.


Skill rank modifier variant: Certain checks require a minimum number of skill ranks to achieve, and magic can just boost the likelyhood. If a continuing diplomacy check is required, magic can boost certain conversations, but day to day interactions require a certain level of penach. A search check could require a certain level of experience to know the tricks used to hide somthing, as well as the luck and fine detail that could be granted by magic.

Rules for the telescope: It seems odd, but this item is charged at 1000gp (in the PH no less), and has not RAW function. This item reduces the range penalties for spot checks by a factor of 5, hence from 1000ft a spot check to see through a disguise or see a hiding opponent is 'only' a -20. To see a hiding opponent you need to designate cone that is 100ft wide at 1000ft that is all you can detect. Presumably you can already see the target of a disguise check, so the narrowing of the range of vision is less relevent.
These are a bit sillier than the earlier ones, but give an option for making skill ranks more than +1 to a skill, and highlight the fact that distance rules do not actually exist.

Thanks in advance for reading, and any thoughts. :smallsmile: If this thread becomes a repository for systematic change ideas I would be very happy (and if there is a similar thread already please tell me).

Just to Browse
2014-03-15, 09:05 PM
Mundane is nerfed because now you can stop attack rolls by stabbing at them and you get free scaling AC. Power Attack is less useful (so mundane can't deal decent damage), and mundanes need to shove more resources into their attack bonus, meaning they get less out-of-combat goodies.

Attack spells, the weakest of all casting tools, are nerfed harder. Buffing becomes even more important.

The skill rank change would need some hard-coded rules. Right now it's just "DMs can randomly screw players by imposing arbitrary skill minimums". Invisibility + silence can still win the stealth minigame with ease. All other casting utility, like divination, water breathing, flight, (etc.) remain untouched.

This doesn't buff mundanes at all. It makes ye olde d&d casting harder to pull off, but it simply encourages casters to do the abusive things that make them so incredibly strong.

ace rooster
2014-03-16, 05:40 AM
Mundane is nerfed because now you can stop attack rolls by stabbing at them and you get free scaling AC. Power Attack is less useful (so mundane can't deal decent damage), and mundanes need to shove more resources into their attack bonus, meaning they get less out-of-combat goodies.

Power attack changes from a +2 to damage to a +1 to a save DC, (with a heavy maul) which is not a nerf. The goal is to make battlefield tactics available to mundanes by introducing some options that are slower, but offer some suppression, while stopping casters just ending combats in a round. As is, a good combat build is just one that kills things really fast, or trips, as these are the only ways to slow something down.


Attack spells, the weakest of all casting tools, are nerfed harder. Buffing becomes even more important.

Yes and no, casting attack spells at a range of 50ft is now no longer an easy option, (orbs are out) but at a range of 500ft, a caster is unlikely to be interupted (fireball is still fireball). The Buffing thing is deliberate (indeed half the point). A well prepared wizard is still a well prepared wizard, but if they are caught unprepared they will find it much more difficult to raise defenses.


The skill rank change would need some hard-coded rules. Right now it's just "DMs can randomly screw players by imposing arbitrary skill minimums". Invisibility + silence can still win the stealth minigame with ease. All other casting utility, like divination, water breathing, flight, (etc.) remain untouched.

Yes that does need a lot more work (And in retrospect I probably should not have included it, as it is outside the remit of the title), but is mostly an attempt (somewhat crude) at allowing DMs to make skill ranks important, rather than just modifiers. Casting retains it's utility deliberately, because I am avoiding nerfing capabilities.
Incidently, see invisibility is one of the few divinitions that doesn't have a range limit, and is low enough level for a potion. If casters want to shut themselves down with silence then that is fine with me.


This doesn't buff mundanes at all. It makes ye olde d&d casting harder to pull off, but it simply encourages casters to do the abusive things that make them so incredibly strong.
I never said that I was buffing mundanes, only that I would like them to have options. In some ways what I am trying to do is make all classes harder to play well, so that an experienced player who wants a challange is not forced down the caster line.
Abusive loopholes will always exist, and are the DM's problem. They have to be dealt with on a case by case basis, so I am not even going to try. Thanks again for your thoughts :smallsmile:.

AuraTwilight
2014-03-16, 03:40 PM
Mundane characters do NOT need to be made harder to play. They already have that up the wazoo.

The Dragon
2014-03-16, 03:53 PM
Mundane characters do NOT need to be made harder to play. They already have that up the wazoo.

I'm not sure I agree here, mundanes are usually pretty straight forward.

The idea would be that it should reward people who take the right actions at the right time, same as the wizard who casts color spray when things need killing, and feather fall when he's thrown out of a five-story window, because he failed to pay his hobgoblin loan-shark.

An archer will go "I shoot it." a rogue will go "I tumble and stab it." and a warrior will go "I hit it."

Whenever the above is not applicable, they're out of the game.

It's not that they're hard to play, it's that they are one-trick ponies.

If you could raise the optimization ceiling for the choices that mundane characters have, I would not think it a bad idea.

toapat
2014-03-16, 05:06 PM
An easy solution to buff mundanes would be to compress feats like the Mounted Combat lines into single feats that scale with BAB. The only nerf then i see is dropkicking away the Cleric and Druid's 3/4 progression of BAB.

Thats basically the sort of solution i took to the WF line, which i made a fix for in my feats thread from a long time ago.

Combine for instance, Improved Bullrush and Improved Overrun, and make them grant Trample at X BAB when you have Mounted combat. Mounted combat would give you Mounted Archery, Ride By attack, and later on Spirited Charge.

Alot of the pains of mundanes can be dealt with by letting them not burn everything on a single combat focus.

3drinks
2014-03-16, 06:30 PM
An easy solution to buff mundanes would be to compress feats like the Mounted Combat lines into single feats that scale with BAB. The only nerf then i see is dropkicking away the Cleric and Druid's 3/4 progression of BAB.

Thats basically the sort of solution i took to the WF line, which i made a fix for in my feats thread from a long time ago.

Combine for instance, Improved Bullrush and Improved Overrun, and make them grant Trample at X BAB when you have Mounted combat. Mounted combat would give you Mounted Archery, Ride By attack, and later on Spirited Charge.

Alot of the pains of mundanes can be dealt with by letting them not burn everything on a single combat focus.

This is a very, very sound idea. It makes them more powerful by virtue of having access to more options, but not overtly moreso because they still need requisite BAB (i.e. you still can't take Great Cleave before fourth level). All of a sudden, Mounted Combat becomes more than a fringe feat tree as it's much less of a liability to take when your DM hands you dungeon campaigns where your mount can't follow (because now you're burned on one feat as opposed to a whole career's worth of feats).

edit: Of note, this especially makes Whirlwind Attack much more lucrative by making the Dodge progression mean something (needing only Dodge, Combat Expertise, and BAB +6 to qualify, and earning Spring Attack at BAB +4 just for taking Dodge).

Just to Browse
2014-03-16, 06:44 PM
Power attack changes from a +2 to damage to a +1 to a save DC, (with a heavy maul) which is not a nerf. The goal is to make battlefield tactics available to mundanes by introducing some options that are slower, but offer some suppression, while stopping casters just ending combats in a round. As is, a good combat build is just one that kills things really fast, or trips, as these are the only ways to slow something down.It's totally a nerf. Sure, at level 1 these people can force DC 15 fort saves v. "losing the fight", which makes low-level even more rocket-launchery than before. But at high levels, battlefield tactics are crap. Constructs, undead, and plants do not care about bludgeoning weapons, and any kind of closet troll will come with something like +6 bonus AC from their hit dice. Piercing is basically useless at every level, except against limited subsets of NPCs. Everyone carries a bag of heavy rocks and a sword because now the only realistic tactic is "bludgeon them if they're weak to fort saves, pierce them if they have condition immunity, stab them otherwise". Tripstars are less-worthwhile because they're only good against fort-immune enemies, dungeoncrashers are even less useful because all the things immune to fort tend to have high strength, and all uberchargers come equipped with a greatsword and a warhammer that they need to make magical because DR/magic is so ubiquitous.

Melee is given fewer options. Mundane combat has become less dynamic. The only thing that's really changed is that rocket launcher tag happens at almost every level, everyone wants to be immune to stunning and fatigue, and mundanes have even more mandatory stuff to spend their WBL on.


Yes and no, casting attack spells at a range of 50ft is now no longer an easy option, (orbs are out) but at a range of 500ft, a caster is unlikely to be interupted (fireball is still fireball). The Buffing thing is deliberate (indeed half the point). A well prepared wizard is still a well prepared wizard, but if they are caught unprepared they will find it much more difficult to raise defenses.Right, but the good attack spells are close range. So now buffing (which was amazing beforehand) is more amazing. Wizards are less likely to act like wizards and more likely to act like Power Rangers.

And there is no such thing as a wizard "caught unprepared". Contingency is not prevented, the 1hr/lvl buffs are not ignored. The immediate/swift action spells are still totally game-winning. The only mage-types that you have nerfed are the ones that were bad in the first place.

Yes that does need a lot more work (And in retrospect I probably should not have included it, as it is outside the remit of the title), but is mostly an attempt (somewhat crude) at allowing DMs to make skill ranks important, rather than just modifiers. Casting retains it's utility deliberately, because I am avoiding nerfing capabilities.

Incidently, see invisibility is one of the few divinitions that doesn't have a range limit, and is low enough level for a potion. If casters want to shut themselves down with silence then that is fine with me.Invisibility is not countered by a 300gp item that only lasts half an hour, and silence is dismissable. Those are literally the last of the caster's worries when he wins the stealth minigame at level 3.


I never said that I was buffing mundanes, only that I would like them to have options. In some ways what I am trying to do is make all classes harder to play well, so that an experienced player who wants a challange is not forced down the caster line.An experienced player is totally still forced down the caster line, because now he needs +1 bludgeoning and slashing weapons with the proper alignment/material traits and he needs sources of fort boost, stun immunity, and fatigue immunity. His WBL pool for "cool things" is basically negative, while the casters are still getting it for free, even if they feel kind of bad.


Abusive loopholes will always exist, and are the DM's problem. They have to be dealt with on a case by case basis, so I am not even going to try. Thanks again for your thoughts :smallsmile:.The problem is not that abusive loopholes exist, it's that this fix encourages abusive loopholes. When the incentives of your fix are angled to the opposite of your goal, you should consider a redesign.

What you seem to want:
Mundanes with reliable crowd control
Mundane fighters that don't one-shot each other, but can one-shot other dudes
Casters with fewer win buttons

How you can fix that:
Write combat maneuvers that do what you want, so the numbers don't scale ridiculously and damage isn't horrifically nerfed.
Give fighters defensive abilities and more mobility, instead of straight-up buffing their AC.
Use different spellcasters.

Wargamer
2014-03-18, 11:20 AM
Seems to me there is already an easy fix to magic - material components.

Your player wants to fly? He needs a Windeagle feather. Oh, they're only found at the top of a Dragon-infested mountain by the way, so nobody sells them.

Invisibility? In this setting that needs the dying breath of a hanged man. Market balue for that is running at 1,000gp or more, and there are a lot of fakes.

This is the real problem with spellcasting; the spellcasters don't have to earn it. When the whole party has to hunt down a Manticore so you can cast a spell ir has one of two outcomes. The first is the spell itself becomes treasure, something the whole party values and feels rewarded by. The second is that the spellcaster doesn't cast gamebreaking spells nearly as often. When every instance of Prismic Ray requires a two-week sidequest it stops being part of your opening gambit.

Spiryt
2014-03-18, 11:30 AM
Bab based dodge bonus variant: Every Character gets a dodge bonus to AC or half their Bab, rounding down. Probably reduce dragon natural armour to compensate, but otherwise should be easy enough to implement.

Giving that apply only to Class levels should be more sensible.

This way full BaB classes could indeed get some needed (touch) AC, without making monsters harder to hit....

toapat
2014-03-18, 11:40 AM
Seems to me there is already an easy fix to magic - material components.

Your player wants to fly? He needs a Windeagle feather. Oh, they're only found at the top of a Dragon-infested mountain by the way, so nobody sells them.

Invisibility? In this setting that needs the dying breath of a hanged man. Market balue for that is running at 1,000gp or more, and there are a lot of fakes.

This is the real problem with spellcasting; the spellcasters don't have to earn it. When the whole party has to hunt down a Manticore so you can cast a spell ir has one of two outcomes. The first is the spell itself becomes treasure, something the whole party values and feels rewarded by. The second is that the spellcaster doesn't cast gamebreaking spells nearly as often. When every instance of Prismic Ray requires a two-week sidequest it stops being part of your opening gambit.

the problem with exotic material components is the same problem as was noted in the main post. It doesnt matter how you attempt to fix casting, it hurts Mundanes as much if not more, because of how alot of the strength of a Caster is their ability to work together with their team members, and their ability to force multiply. Take away what makes casters strong and mundanes suffer just as much.

I presented the only non-rewrite solution for buffing mundanes without casters benefiting directly, which is to stop raping mundane's ability to do different things. Look at mundane optimization and it becomes easy to see why i said that. A mid-optimization caster can do basically anything, an optimization level of mundane is incapable of effectively doing a variety of actions because they are either so poorly optimized that the Standard Attack is the only reliable action, or they are locked into tripping, charging, or bullrushing.

TuggyNE
2014-03-18, 06:44 PM
The second is that the spellcaster doesn't cast gamebreaking spells nearly as often.

This is true, but it has some unfortunate side effects. Namely, they don't cast any spells nearly as often, and are thus spending the majority of their time doing precisely zip. In practice, I suspect this sort of hamhanded soft ban would mean that no one would want to play casters, and what good is that?

And, of course, if you missed any one gamebreaking (or "gamebreaking"; invisibility is not that good, seriously; it's no alter self, certainly) spell, then that will be cast, early and often, if anyone does decide to play a caster. At which point, logically you will feel the need to assign an enormous material component cost to it in order to make it useless once more. An excellent recipe for hurt feelings.