Charger build looking for level 11+ advice

[Gabrosin]

Hey all, I'm about to start up a new campaign and I'm resurrecting an old character of mine. The progression:

Race: Human
Template: Half-Minotaur (from Dragon Magazine, house-ruled to receive only the listed attribute modifiers, and not the extra +8 Str and so on from gaining a size category)

Level 1: Warblade
Level 2: Samurai
Level 3: Fighter
Level 4-6: Warblade
Level 7-10: War Hulk
Level 11+: ?

Feats: Power Attack (human bonus), Cleave (level 1), Leap Attack (level 3), Improved Bull Rush (fighter bonus), Shock Trooper (level 6). If the DM allows flaws, I plan to take Shaky and probably Poor Reflexes in order to gain Combat Reflexes and maybe Knockback, or maybe trade in the forced Fighter level for Samurai 2 or Warblade 5.

Stances: Punishing, Leaping Dragon
Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Sudden Leap, Iron Heart Surge, Stone Bones

As you can see, it's a charger build, but I want it to be well-rounded as well. I don't want to merely optimize for obscene charge damage and have the DM decide I'm too powerful for the campaign and nerf/kill me. I hope to only use full-power charge attacks in serious fights, and not necessarily use every round of every fight setting up a charge action. That's also why I'm taking a level or two in a suboptimal class like Samurai, for flavor purposes. I can easily change up between wielding a two-handed greathammer, or wielding a katana two-handed, or pulling out a shield, or even going two-weapon style if I take Samurai 2.

What I want to ask is, where should I go from here? The campaign we're likely to run will last for a couple more levels beyond 10, and I dislike taking levels that don't offer very much (Samurai excluded). I could take further levels in War Hulk for the strength boost, but none of the abilities beyond War Hulk 4 are appealing until War Hulk 10, which we won't get to. I could grab a second level of Fighter for another bonus feat, but that seems weak. Warblade 5 would also get the bonus feat (Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative, depending), but further progression in Warblade doesn't really get me anything new: it's Warblade 10 before you add a fifth readied maneuver, and I see no reason to leave Leaping Dragon Stance or ready anything but the two saving throw replacements, Sudden Leap, and Iron Heart Surge. Neither Improved Uncanny Dodge at Warblade 6 nor Battle Cunning at Warblade 7 do much for me. Samurai past level 2, even if the DM let me go back into it, is also a dud.

I've got my level 9 feat and possibly one other one from flaws to work with. Is there a prestige class that would stack well on top of what I've already built that's achievable with so little wiggle room? I don't plan to go Hulking Hurler and throw cities. With my lawful alignment, anything that requires barbarian levels is out. I'd love to enter Warshaper, but I'm not asking to be a Half-Minotaur Changeling. So far the best I've come up with is maybe Pious Templar, to pick up mettle, a small amount of DR, and some low-level divine spells. It doesn't fit too closely with the character though, and he may not have a strong enough Wisdom score for casting anything anyway.

Pretty much any 3.0 or 3.5 book is available, but the closer to core, the better... and no psionics. Ideas?

[Mavakith]

Hey all, I'm about to start up a new campaign and I'm resurrecting an old character of mine. The progression:

Race: Human
Template: Half-Minotaur (from Dragon Magazine, house-ruled to receive only the listed attribute modifiers, and not the extra +8 Str and so on from gaining a size category)

Level 1: Warblade
Level 2: Samurai
Level 3: Fighter
Level 4-6: Warblade
Level 7-10: War Hulk
Level 11+: ?

*SNIP*


Question, WHY samurai?!?

Please tell me it is NOT CW Samurai :smalleek:

[CyberThread]

I really don't like war hulk...it can hurt you as far as interactions sometimes go.

Honestly, maybe take a look into blood born cultist?

[Andezzar]

You may want to talk to the DM what Leaping Dragon stance even does:
While you are in this stance, you gain a +10-foot enhancement bonus on Jump checks.You cannot add 10 ft to an integer (the result of a jump check). If you say that the 10 ft are added to the jump distance, you have the problem that you cannot forgo this bonus, except by deactivating the stance.

How about taking the Leading the Charge Stance? Adding your IL to the damage of any damage roll on a charge by you and your allies within 30 ft. is quite good, especially when combined with pounce.

Also why War Hulk? I don't think it meshes well with the Samurai fluff wise, besides being a mediocre PrC pre epic. Samurai are about honor, obedience and control, whereas the other class is "Hulk Smash".

If you want to build a charger where is Pounce? You usually get that through a level of Barbarian with the Spiritual Totem (Lion) ACF. Taking the Whirling Frenzy ACF as well is also a good idea.

Blood born cultist?

[Gabrosin]

Yes, it's CW Samurai. It's a flavor choice, not an optimization choice. Basically a one-level dip for EWP: bastard sword, so I can wield it and a shield at the same time with no penalty. I could get the same from fighter, or take something else entirely and stick to a greathammer and a longsword. But I'm already going to be above the curve compared to the rest of the party (mostly newer players), and I'm not losing much to do it (a different bonus feat from Fighter 2, or taking Warblade to 6).

I don't mind the lack of interactions from War Hulk. I'd rather see the rest of the party take center stage for the social side of the campaign. I'll focus on physical skills anyway (jump, tumble, concentration), and I think the DM would let me still prestige into something off skill ranks I "forfeit" to War Hulk, if I wanted to. For four levels I get +8 strength and the ability to hit three people at a time with a standard swing, including at the end of a charge.

As for the lack of pounce, well, I've thought about it. But going War Hulk sets me back on iteratives, and a lot of the time the end of my charge is going to drop someone anyway (and cleave if applicable). It's a fine ability for tallying up maximum hypothetical damage, but I don't think it's a huge loss when actually playing a midlevel charger.

Leaping Dragon Stance seems pretty straightforward to me. You make your jump check to see how far you COULD go with your jump, then you add ten feet to that value. If you only want to jump five feet, that's still fine. Overwhelmingly winning your jump check doesn't mean you have to overjump your mark, any more than a big win on a climb check means you overclimb that mountain.

I couldn't find "blood born cultist". If you mean Black Blade Cultist, it gets some nice things, but I can't rage and I'm not CN/NE/CE, so I don't come close to qualifying.

[Andezzar]

For four levels I get +8 strength and the ability to hit three people at a time with a standard swing, including at the end of a charge.No, you cannot do that on a charge without pounce. Great Swing is a Full Round Action. A Charge is a different Full Round Action. Mighty swing is a standard action which a Charge never is. However mighty swing has this counterintuitive rule:
Thus, the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.Thus with pounce you could make more than one mighty swing at the end of the charge, because this rule does not specify a Full Attack or some other restriction.


Leaping Dragon Stance seems pretty straightforward to me. You make your jump check to see how far you COULD go with your jump, then you add ten feet to that value. If you only want to jump five feet, that's still fine. Overwhelmingly winning your jump check doesn't mean you have to overjump your mark, any more than a big win on a climb check means you overclimb that mountain.No, you make a jump check with a DC corresponding to the distance you want to cover, exceeding this DC does not make you overshoot your target, but adding 10 ft to the check makes no sense. Example:
PC: "With a running start I want to jump over this 20 ft chasm."
DM: "Since there are no special circumstances, make a DC 20 jump check"
PC: "OK I have a +15 jump modifier" *rolls d20 "17+15 = 32"
32 +10 ft does not compute.

The roll of 32 means that the jump check is a success and the PC arrives at the intended target. Adding 10 ft to that result does not make any sense, as this would mean that the PC would be displaced by 10 ft (but we do not know in which direction).

What the writers probably wanted to write was either
"While you are in this stance, you gain a +10 enhancement bonus on Jump checks." or
"While you are in this stance, you gain a +10-foot enhancement bonus to your speed for the purpose of determining your Jump modifier." or even
"While you are in this stance, you gain a +10-foot enhancement bonus to your speed while jumping."
Either of those will work fine but will produce different results.
1) will let the player roll d20 +25 instead of d20 +15
2) will either reduce a penalty the check by 6 (speed <30 ft) or give a +4 bonus to the check (speed 30+ ft)
3) will do the same as 2 and additionally allow the PC to move 10 ft farther in a single move action (i.e. he is less likely to hang in the air till his next turn).

Anyway it is not clear, so ask your DM what you can do with the Stance.


I couldn't find "blood born cultist". If you mean Black Blade Cultist, it gets some nice things, but I can't rage and I'm not CN/NE/CE, so I don't come close to qualifying.It's Black Blood Cultist.

[Gabrosin]

I think it's pretty clear from the "counterintuitive rule" that you cited that the purpose of Mighty Swing is to let you use Great Swing whenever you're swinging your weapon. It makes no sense to say that I couldn't use it in conjunction with a charge as a single swing, but by taking pounce I could suddenly use it multiple times with that same charge. I'll double-check with the DM, of course, to make sure she agrees with that interpretation of the rule, but that's how I'd rule it in my own campaigns.

It's true that the Leaping Stance author probably meant a +10 bonus to jump checks, which would be fine. Getting to treat standing jumps as running jumps is a nice enough bonus. Leading the Charge would really only help one other character in the party, and getting a small amount of bonus damage on a charge for just one person isn't even as helpful as something like Punishing Stance.

[Andezzar]

I think it's pretty clear from the "counterintuitive rule" that you cited that the purpose of Mighty Swing is to let you use Great Swing whenever you're swinging your weapon.If that were the case, why don't the rules say "A mighty swing is like a great swing, except that you can use it as an attack rather than a full-round action." All special attacks that can be used in such a way (Disarm, Trip etc.), also say so.

It makes no sense to say that I couldn't use it in conjunction with a charge as a single swing, but by taking pounce I could suddenly use it multiple times with that same charge.I agree. Drown healing does not make much sense either, but the rules say that is how it works.


Leading the Charge would really only help one other character in the party, and getting a small amount of bonus damage on a charge for just one person isn't even as helpful as something like Punishing Stance.It is your character and any other character that charges within 30 ft of your character, because unless stated otherwise you are your own ally. Also the ability scales with your level. If you only get one attack on the charge it is not that great but if you get more than one it gets considerably better. Unless you do not get to charge often (difficult terrain etc.), even without other people charging, you do more damage with leading the charge at IL 4 on average. IL 7 makes you deal more damage every time. The best part is that the bonus damage is not expressed in dice, as such it is multiplied normally (on a crit, with a valorous weapon etc.)

For later on you might consider taking Wall of Blades, if you plan on using Heedless Charge from Shock Trooper. Your AC is down but your AB is not during a charge and the rest of the round after, so you can turn one attack away.

Speaking of Heedless Charge, you will want the target of your charge incapacitated, so any help in damage/round is very good. If the target is not dead after the charge, you will have to face a full attack from that target, or whatever else the target could do with a Full Round action.

BTW you cannot take Leap Attack at level 3. You need 8 ranks in Jump. So level 5 is the earliest.

[Gabrosin]

Ah, I missed the prereq on Leap Attack... I can shift things around.

Leading the Charge only cites allies. Spells like prayer explicitly state that "you and each of your allies gain" etc. etc. Even the fluff around the White Raven school is all about boosting your companions, not necessarily yourself. If it affects my character as well, then it's worth looking into, but unless there's an official "you count as your own ally" rule somewhere I can reference, I doubt I'd be allowed to get the benefit from it.

I like Wall of Blades, I'd consider swapping out Stone Bones for it, or adding it if I progress to knowing six maneuvers by continuing in Warblade. I'm just not sure that I'd ever ready it over MoPM, ABT, IHS, or Sudden Leap, which is basically battle teleportation (and another reason to want the extra 10' from Leaping Dragon).

And I'm aware that when I don't drop the target I'm in for a world of hurt. That's why I'll be wearing mithral full plate, as opposed to just going with a chain shirt. If I can fit Combat Reflexes into the build, I'll also be able to use extra attacks of opportunity to try to drop other bad guys who move through my threatened space to attack me. But mostly it speaks to using charges situationally rather than as my first and last idea when it's time for combat. I'm okay with that.

[Andezzar]

Leading the Charge only cites allies. Spells like prayer explicitly state that "you and each of your allies gain" etc. etc. Even the fluff around the White Raven school is all about boosting your companions, not necessarily yourself. If it affects my character as well, then it's worth looking into, but unless there's an official "you count as your own ally" rule somewhere I can reference, I doubt I'd be allowed to get the benefit from it.Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ally&alpha=A) to the rescue.


And I'm aware that when I don't drop the target I'm in for a world of hurt. That's why I'll be wearing mithral full plate, as opposed to just going with a chain shirt.Good idea unless you want to tumble. You cannot tumble as long your speed is reduced, regardless of what your net speed is. I.e. hasted wearing medium armor you cannot tumble even though your net speed is 40ft.


If I can fit Combat Reflexes into the build, I'll also be able to use extra attacks of opportunity to try to drop other bad guys who move through my threatened space to attack me. But mostly it speaks to using charges situationally rather than as my first and last idea when it's time for combat. I'm okay with that.3-4 Feats one something that you only occasionally want to use is quite an investment. Once you have made that investment you may want to look for ways to make that investment pay of as much as possible (Balance 5+ ranks, Bounding Assault Maneuver, Flight with perfect maneuverability etc.) If you cannot drop a foe, it is always nice to somehow remove or diminish their ability to attack. E.g. A balor is just as dangerous with 1 HP as with Full HP. a paralyzed/stunned/sickened balor on the other hand is less of a threat.

[Gabrosin]

Awesome, thanks for the reference! Bookmarking that one for future use.

I intend to purchase an item of continuous Knight Unburdened to remove the mithral full plate speed reduction. Same price as a Tooth of Savnok but without all the negative fluff. Should allow for tumbling, I'd think, but again I'll check with the DM.

It's true that I'm investing a lot of the character's resources into being good at charging. I'll use it as often as is necessary. But it's important to me not to overshadow less optimized characters, or force the DM to scale up encounters just because of my presence in them. Also, I'm a minotaur, so all the bull rush stuff from Shock Trooper will also be useful and flavorful.

Mostly I'd like to find more ways to defend myself from being taken out of a fight. Warblade fixes my bad saves (mostly). I plan to get gear to protect against stunning, criticals, and so on, once I can afford it. Iron Heart Surge, used responsibly, will deal with a lot of negative conditions. Is there anything else I can go into at level 11 that will help with that ideal? I've gone through a lot of base and prestige classes and haven't found a particularly useful 1-2 level dip for those spots. Without better options, I'll probably just keep progressing Warblade for the d12 and minor benefits like improved uncanny dodge.

[Andezzar]

Awesome, thanks for the reference! Bookmarking that one for future use.No problem.


I intend to purchase an item of continuous Knight Unburdened to remove the mithral full plate speed reduction. Same price as a Tooth of Savnok but without all the negative fluff. Should allow for tumbling, I'd think, but again I'll check with the DM.Problem solved. I have little experience with Eberron so I forgot about that spell. The teeth are indeed ridiculous.


Mostly I'd like to find more ways to defend myself from being taken out of a fight. Warblade fixes my bad saves (mostly). I plan to get gear to protect against stunning, criticals, and so on, once I can afford it. Iron Heart Surge, used responsibly, will deal with a lot of negative conditions. Is there anything else I can go into at level 11 that will help with that ideal?Your party will thank you if you buy a Horn of Plenty (MIC p. 162) and you can adventure in style.
You can find other interesting stuff here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13627036&postcount=27).


I've gone through a lot of base and prestige classes and haven't found a particularly useful 1-2 level dip for those spots. Without better options, I'll probably just keep progressing Warblade for the d12 and minor benefits like improved uncanny dodge.Getting more Warblade levels definitely is not a bad idea, if you do not want to take a Barbarian dip.