Feedback on an epic character?

[HeyThereImBear]

So, currently, I have a creature that I have built that is pushing about 90 attacks per round, all of which being natural attacks.

The current formula goes a little like this:

exemplar -> multi-armed - > obah-blessed -> insectile -> abberant -> abberant limbs -> Chirurgic -> metatemplate (battle angel) -> MetaTemplate (Sith) -> miniature -> Amalgem -> Degenerate

Amalgem'd with an identical build I can give it 16 bonus feats at level 1 and according the the LA system that's in Savage species the creature has a LA of roughly +5 (+1 for attacks, +2 for flying, +2 for feats)

Currently, it's race is "Exemplar (Outsider, Angel), and it's size class is small.

The way I accomplished 90 attacks in a round goes a little like this:

multi-armed(creature collection 3, 4 arms), obah-blessed (8 arms) , Insectile (12 arms), Abberant (28 arms) , Abberant limbs (30 arms)

If you combine that with Chirurgic Horror, then instead of standard weapon attacks, all of the arms replaced with a weapon of my own choice (In this case I used a heavily modified executioner's sword, but you can sub an Anti-matter rifle for maximum luls), because of the class progression I only have a single attack with each arm, but the "blinding speed" ability that I acquired from the "metatemplate:Sith" allows me to make 3 full attack actions in a round.

Classes are rogue 3/wiz 5/ Arcane trickster 10, and with a few feats (listed below), I can sneak attack anything (Variant rogue swap for trapfinding at 3), faint a sneak attack on anything, and when that sneak attack hits (And with a perm. ring of limited wish I always hit) it kills the creature.

My issues I've found is things that don't die at -10, but due to my outsider typing I can give the enchanted natural attack ability at a +13 CR (have to find the source from my DM), I was able to pull of a crazy combo. Here's how it works:

At level 1 take these feats: path of the tiger, human blood, racial heritage (elf), fire elf blood

at the earliest op, take: agonizing strike, back alley brawler, crippling strike, painful strike, wicked strike, wounding strike

If you're an outsider then at this level (character was made to be ecl 23) you can have "Skillfull" applied on your natural weapons to make your BAB equal to 3/4 you hd. With feats it brings it to +12 with these classes.

Once you have +12 bab: take Assassin's strike. Now your SA's kill on hit.

With the Variant rogue, you can now sneak attack most things (all things), and with Arcane trickster, you can sneak attack without them being flat footed (a certain amount of times per day).

Anything to make it more cheese? (Note: not trying to make it unkillable. It's the assassin of the party)

[Gavinfoxx]

Sounds like you are adding lots of homebrew and d20 stuff.

Please cite all of your sources.

[HeyThereImBear]

Sounds like you are adding lots of homebrew and d20 stuff.

Please cite all of your sources.


Most of it is D20, none is homebrew.

I'll give you an expanded source list when I get back home.

[HeyThereImBear]

Sounds like you are adding lots of homebrew and d20 stuff.

Please cite all of your sources.

Off the top of my head:

Amalgem, degenerate, Chirurgic horror, abberant, metatemplate, and miniature are all from the Deluxe book of templates 3.5e

[Gavinfoxx]

So... 3rd party, then...

We don't mostly use 3rd party here...

[HeyThereImBear]

So... 3rd party, then...

We don't mostly use 3rd party here...

A resource is a resource. It's as simple as that.

[MadGreenSon]

So... 3rd party, then...

We don't mostly use 3rd party here...

I think that particular book is good quality third party, as it goes.

It's mostly just a lot of templates, intended primarily to switch up creatures more than characters. Better than a lot of similar 3rd party stuff.

But to each their own.

[icefractal]

Nothing wrong with using 3rd party stuff, if that's how a campaign is, but it makes it hard to judge much about the character. For instance, I have no idea if you're getting the most from your templates, because I have no idea what most of those do or what the alternatives are.

Also, of course, Epic is hard to judge. In some groups, that would be way too strong, even for Epic level - 90 attacks!? Automatic death!? In others, it would be (for this level) too weak; after all, you're making finite attacks and being physically present.

[MadGreenSon]

The thing about the Deluxe Book of Templates is that it really is made for DM use on creatures, almost everything good on all of the templates is keyed off Racial Hit Dice, specifically.

It's really not for PCs.

The Chirugic Horror isn't quite as bad off, only the sneak attack and magic weapon abilities are on RHD, but even then you're left with natural weapons in a funny hat and making yourself look like a freak that should be hanging out in a dungeon.

Aberrant is hit or miss, the entire template is, as written, supposed to have randomly rolled traits.

Degenerate is a template meant to weaken a monster, taking away qualities, attacks abilities getting +1d4-4 to AC for instance (very easy to have a penalty there. as well as randomly rolled weaknesses like blindness or hemophilia.

I'm not sure how the OP applied all of these templates or how he managed to avoid all the downsides to the ones I recognize, but this is a bit iffy, even for epic, IMO.

Besides, other than being something to brag about having created. Is 90 attacks really worth the hassle? I've never played with a group that wouldn't get bored and wander off by attack number 20 at the latest.

Sometimes, you need to think about the rest of the team.
And if everyone is pulling off that many attacks, can you even finish a round of combat in less than an hour? How long does resolving 90 attacks take?

You might want to go back to your first principles here and determine what you want to accomplish with the character and come up with a more elegant way of doing it. There are a lot of resources for good optimization available.

As a DM myself, I would not allow this character, RAW legal or not in an Epic game I was running just on the weight of 90 attacks taking too long to resolve and detracting from the group's fun.

What is it you want to achieve playing this character? I guarantee unless the answer is "90 attacks!" there is a better way to accomplish it without putting the rest of your fellow players into comas waiting for you to finish one round of attacks.

[HeyThereImBear]

Nothing wrong with using 3rd party stuff, if that's how a campaign is, but it makes it hard to judge much about the character. For instance, I have no idea if you're getting the most from your templates, because I have no idea what most of those do or what the alternatives are.

Also, of course, Epic is hard to judge. In some groups, that would be way too strong, even for Epic level - 90 attacks!? Automatic death!? In others, it would be (for this level) too weak; after all, you're making finite attacks and being physically present.


Well I posted the build for the final boss here a few months back and tippy couldn't kill it, so I don't think that it's really overkill.

[HeyThereImBear]

The thing about the Deluxe Book of Templates is that it really is made for DM use on creatures, almost everything good on all of the templates is keyed off Racial Hit Dice, specifically.

It's really not for PCs.

The Chirugic Horror isn't quite as bad off, only the sneak attack and magic weapon abilities are on RHD, but even then you're left with natural weapons in a funny hat and making yourself look like a freak that should be hanging out in a dungeon.

Aberrant is hit or miss, the entire template is, as written, supposed to have randomly rolled traits.

Degenerate is a template meant to weaken a monster, taking away qualities, attacks abilities getting +1d4-4 to AC for instance (very easy to have a penalty there. as well as randomly rolled weaknesses like blindness or hemophilia.

I'm not sure how the OP applied all of these templates or how he managed to avoid all the downsides to the ones I recognize, but this is a bit iffy, even for epic, IMO.

Besides, other than being something to brag about having created. Is 90 attacks really worth the hassle? I've never played with a group that wouldn't get bored and wander off by attack number 20 at the latest.

Sometimes, you need to think about the rest of the team.
And if everyone is pulling off that many attacks, can you even finish a round of combat in less than an hour? How long does resolving 90 attacks take?

You might want to go back to your first principles here and determine what you want to accomplish with the character and come up with a more elegant way of doing it. There are a lot of resources for good optimization available.

As a DM myself, I would not allow this character, RAW legal or not in an Epic game I was running just on the weight of 90 attacks taking too long to resolve and detracting from the group's fun.

What is it you want to achieve playing this character? I guarantee unless the answer is "90 attacks!" there is a better way to accomplish it without putting the rest of your fellow players into comas waiting for you to finish one round of attacks.

Considering that I don't have to roll for the attacks (Ring of limited wish perm'd on "Always hit"), The attack round wouldn't be too bad. And compared to the rest of the party (A titanic half-dragon uber spellsword that can cast it's entire spellbook twice in one round, and a hyper-templated version of the tarrasque), it's really not /that/ redic.

The entire point of this campaign is leading up to a point where we will meet with my party's 3 best characters (All of which have been posted on here at one point and no one has been able to stop them), but I'm not sure if we're intended to fight them this early on in the campaign.

The entire purpose of this character is to be exactly what it's named; the thing that should not be. It's a character that the rest of the PC's stumbled on while archiving and ancient library in ravenloft, but because of the way it looks (Currently looking like a 4' porcelain doll) it was simply put into a backpack and no one realized I was sentient for almost and entire session.

And as for your comment on elegance, I feel that would almost defeat the purpose of all of the attacks. It's a "f*ck you" to the insane monsters my dm's put us up against thus far (The weakest being a standard hecatoncheir).

[docnessuno]

Considering that I don't have to roll for the attacks (Ring of limited wish perm'd on "Always hit")

Wait, srsly?


All of which have been posted on here at one point and no one has been able to stop them

It will be a pleasure to introduce the to Pun Pun.
Or the twice Betrayer of Shar. Or the Nasty gentleman. Or the Attack of the time clones. Or another bunch of nice fellas.


And as for your comment on elegance, I feel that would almost defeat the purpose of all of the attacks. It's a "f*ck you" to the insane monsters my dm's put us up against thus far (The weakest being a standard hecatoncheir).

There are ways to achieve that (and higher) level of optimization without using 3rd party stuff clearly not meant for players. Or insane custom magic items.

[Gavinfoxx]

and tippy couldn't kill it

[Citation Needed]

[Hiro Protagonest]

A resource is a resource. It's as simple as that.

It's also homebrew.

[HeyThereImBear]

Wait, srsly?



It will be a pleasure to introduce the to Pun Pun.
Or the twice Betrayer of Shar. Or the Nasty gentleman. Or the Attack of the time clones. Or another bunch of nice fellas.



There are ways to achieve that (and higher) level of optimization without using 3rd party stuff clearly not meant for players. Or insane custom magic items.

Was battle tested against pun-pun. I'll look into the other ones. They're pretty much just immune to everything. I haven't found something so far that I haven't found a way to become immune to. (And due to the Dragon Mag template "Demon lord", there's nothing that can get passed my immunity, unless using a template/creature that could somehow have the same ability)

As for the ring, (The only magic item I have) I'm pretty sure that it says specifically one of the things you can do with limited wish is make sure an attack always hits. Combine that with the magic item creation rules and you have yourself a very dangerous ring. Combine with a class like warblade for best effects.

And no, because all of the monsters I'm facing have been created with more 3rd party material than I myself own, I feel that the way it was created is fair enough.

[Irk]

I remember this character. It had this one really big weakness, that being a Factotum 11/Psion 9 with a host of Powers gained from and StP erudite to bypass the immunity to psionic powers with PR, thus making it vulnerable to any spell or power. The other main weakness I saw is that you said immunity to spells a caster of your HD could cast. I'd assume that it would just take a ridiculous CL to surpass whatever immunity this consists of, but I know of a way to infinite CL, so perhaps that coupled with some sort of no SR spell with irresistible spell tacked on.

Finally, if this is an epic game, anything without spellcasting is probably extremely suboptimal, but you may have that, I'm not sure.

[Gavinfoxx]

Was battle tested against pun-pun.

[CITATION NEEDED]

[(Un)Inspired]

Was battle tested against pun-pun.


Talk is cheep

-Sun Tzu

[MadGreenSon]

I've had a bit of time to reflect on this and honestly, the whole build is very uninspiring.

It's just dumping a bunch of stuff on a character sheet and calling it "awesome". No theme, no special tricks, no imagination.

The ring should be able to technically do what it says, but it's wasted on this character. That ring would be better on a specialized blaster set up to take advantage of never missing, like the Mailman, as I see nothing here indicating that level of damage output in anything approaching as simple a manner.

As far as I can tell, this build is wholly dependent on that ring, even more than Sauron was on his. This ring, however, is not The One Ring and is vulnerable to various methods of magic item destruction. Without that ring this character is flailing around and generally useless because no one wants to sit around while 90 attacks are rolled and it's likely at the caliber of opposition he'd be facing that the rolled attacks would be worthless anyway.

Like many published epic NPCs this is a pile of stats that's been piled high enough to look unbeatable. Key word "look".

As far as stalemating Tippy or beating Pun-Pun. Provide the citations or be ignored on these points.

[Karnith]

As far as stalemating Tippy or beating Pun-Pun. Provide the citations or be ignored on these points.
Unless they took it to PMs, here's the thread where HeyThereImBear "stalemated" Tippy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313316).

Given that Pun-Pun has access to literally every ability that anything else ever has, has had, or will have, I'm not sure how any build beats Pun-Pun, though.

[Gavinfoxx]

So I went through and copied Tippy's responses from that thread.

Here is what they are.



There is no such ability in the Time Dragon's entry.

---
For something using pretty crappy third party sources this really isn't anything special. Just using official 3.5 sources and without touching Manipulate Form you can do better than this, and do it with a lower ECL.

Oh yeah, permanently disabling and then killing you really isn't that hard.

I mean you don't even have outright immunity to HP damage.


Oh look I just Wished a creature with Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble for a demiplane where one round is a hundred trillion trillion trillion years on the material plane. By the time you get to act to kill the creature, the heat death of the universe has already occurred.

Oh look I just Wished a creature next to you that has a readied action to Iron Heart Surge your AMF away before I used a Maximized Time Stop, Wished myself right next to you, pulled out my portable hole, dumped it over your head, and then threw a portable hole in with you.

Oh look I just Wished a Psion 9/ Factotum 11 next to you and had him Iron Heart Surge your AMF away before using Cunning Breach and Trait Removal as a power (via Psychic Chiguery from a Spell to Power Erudite) to rip off your Regeneration and various other immunities. And because I was fun I used Epic Spellcasting to get the psion an Instantaneous enhancement bonus to Intelligence of one hundred thousand.

Although if I really wanted to, I don't need to use Epic Spellcasting. I can get minions with an Int score of a hundred trillion trillion trillion completely RAW legally.

---
Seriously, you are using third party materials and really aren't doing anything special. I made a gestalt character for an ECL 20 game the other day that was immune to most everything you have listed as an after thought. Completely rules legal and pretty much superior to this thing.

Hell, any Psion with Ice Assassin as a power known (gained via Psychic Chiguery from a Spell to Power Erudite) can do this better than you can. Picking up every single ability from every single class and monster in the entire game really is not that hard.


No, you aren't. You only have immunity to powers that allow PR. And what do you know, Factotum 11 has Cunning Breach which lets him ignore PR/SR and thus bypass the immunity to psionics of a Psion Killer and the various 3.5 golems with Immunity to Magic.

The 3.0 Magic Immunity that you get from an Adamantium Golem doesn't block psionics under transparency and thus you have no relevant immunity once the AMF is gone, which the Iron Heart Surge takes care of.


Wish, I don't need to "find" you. There is no hiding from Wish. And I can always just use Simulacrum via Spell to Power Erudite and make a perfectly loyal copy of you that knows everything that you know and will tell it all to me.


This isn't a character. It's an absurd combination of creature abilities gained via deeply flawed third party material and isn't really anything interesting or special.


Ignored via Cunning Breach from Factotum 11.


Mostly just playing the game with other players and DM's who (like me) have absolutely no interest in pulling punches or playing fair.


That isn't normal, it's just not abnormal.


Not really. I pretty much play either whatever interests me at the time and/or whatever homebrew that I want to play test.

Although I really have very little interest in ever playing a straight melee tank bruiser. I honestly can't remember the last time I played a character with full BAB that wasn't courtesy of a spell or power.

I don't even really like Crusaders or Warblades. I mean mechanically I have no problems with them, I like the fluff and everything even, I just have no interest in playing a character like that.


Yes, people have asked me to build them things but unless they are part of my real life gaming group, someone who has done a favor for me in the past, the thing they want built is actually something that interests me, or (very occasionally) someone who I'm going to be playing with in a pbp game then they best they will get is a bit of general build advice/suggestions.

Oh yeah, and I don't generally respond to PM's asking for build advice.


Could I? Sure. It's not that hard. Do I have much interest in doing so? No, not really.





I'm not actually seeing where you beat him or anything like that?

[MadGreenSon]

Unless they took it to PMs, here's the thread where HeyThereImBear "stalemated" Tippy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313316).

Ok. Read the entire thread. This is all just rules used badly to get utterly broken effects that would have been better achieved just by finger painting "WIN!!!" on a blank character sheet.
Pointless stat-mongering at it's...finest?

It also takes a 3rd party book that has some decent content when used appropriately and uses it in such a way as to make it seem like the worst sort of crap. I find that kinda offensive. I've used the Book of Templates Deluxe as a DM and now it's like it's been...sullied by contact with this.

And of course, Tippy took out this...creation with a few sentences. Tippy =Win.

[(Un)Inspired]

*casts prestidigitation to clean sullied book of templates

[MadGreenSon]

*casts prestidigitation to clean sullied book of templates

Thank you! Now I can go back to designing horrible monsters for a post God War world! :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

No problem! Prestidigitation's ability to clean things is BY FAR my favorite use for it.

Every DM I've played with tries to run my characters through a sewer level at some point. If it wasn't for prestidigitation my characters would probably fall on their swords to escape the poop.

[ekans]

Needs moar natural attacks

Take notes from this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1170.0

[Vhaidara]

By the way, the OP said that he's posted three builds now. I count this on, the one that Tippy won (as far as I can tell, the OP decided to ignore him and claim a win), and one missing. Anyone got a quick link over to the third?

[MadGreenSon]

By the way, the OP said that he's posted three builds now. I count this on, the one that Tippy won (as far as I can tell, the OP decided to ignore him and claim a win), and one missing. Anyone got a quick link over to the third?

Having seen a couple of steaming piles of templates and BS do we really need to see another?

[Vhaidara]

I found it a rather funny read. Kind of like watching YouTube clips of people failing horribly.

[MadGreenSon]

I found it a rather funny read. Kind of like watching YouTube clips of people failing horribly.

I certainly would never deny someone their fun. I got nothin' though as far as this alleged third thread.

[HeyThereImBear]

Unless they took it to PMs, here's the thread where HeyThereImBear "stalemated" Tippy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313316).

Given that Pun-Pun has access to literally every ability that anything else ever has, has had, or will have, I'm not sure how any build beats Pun-Pun, though.

I'd like to point out the one thing that wasn't taken into account there, being the undead's immunity to fort saves that do not effect objects, thus rendering it immune to what tippy seems to think would kill it.


Also, I said there was 3 characters that he coudn't kill. Only one was mine.

[HeyThereImBear]

I remember this character. It had this one really big weakness, that being a Factotum 11/Psion 9 with a host of Powers gained from and StP erudite to bypass the immunity to psionic powers with PR, thus making it vulnerable to any spell or power. The other main weakness I saw is that you said immunity to spells a caster of your HD could cast. I'd assume that it would just take a ridiculous CL to surpass whatever immunity this consists of, but I know of a way to infinite CL, so perhaps that coupled with some sort of no SR spell with irresistible spell tacked on.

Finally, if this is an epic game, anything without spellcasting is probably extremely suboptimal, but you may have that, I'm not sure.


Also going to point out the fact that there is a spire on one of the outer planes that completely negates all forms of magic, psionics, divine salient abilities, and anything that is not a physical attack, of which an animated version could/would/was acquired through leadership.

That thread was the first, but was not all of them.

[MadGreenSon]

Also going to point out the fact that there is a spire on one of the outer planes that completely negates all forms of magic, psionics, divine salient abilities, and anything that is not a physical attack, of which an animated version could/would/was acquired through leadership.

That thread was the first, but was not all of them.

So... you have an animated version of a planar landmark walking around with you? What's it's ECL as a cohort/follower? Why doesn't it's nullify ability effect you or your ring of never missing?
Why was a mindless construct (as animated objects are) attracted through Leadership?
How did something that utterly nullifies everything except physical force get animated in the first place?

What orifice on what unholy abomination was this latest bit of unbelievability pulled from?

[HeyThereImBear]

Hilda didn't have the ring.

I don't think she had any magical items, actually.

Give me a few minutes to go find the build.

Though I'd like to point out that you literally can not kill hilda even if it wasn't there, due to tarrasque's regen, vampire lord's BS "I always come back" ability, and my inability to be trait removal'd

[MadGreenSon]

Hilda didn't have the ring.

I don't think she had any magical items, actually.

Give me a few minutes to go find the build.

Though I'd like to point out that you literally can not kill hilda even if it wasn't there, due to tarrasque's regen, vampire lord's BS "I always come back" ability, and my inability to be trait removal'd

Never mind. I've been married more than a decade and I know an exercise in futility when I see one.

This "character" is a steaming pile of misapplied, misused templates and a few class levels held together by a power fantasy so adolescent that I would have called it immature when I was twelve.

The entire process could have been simplified if you'd simply found a diceless system that let you write in any traits you wanted and went with that.

I'm fine with people having fun any way they want. Believe me kiddo I've tolerated things that others, even here on this board might have found very objectionable, as long as it was legal, I was cool.

But please stop shoveling these piles of steaming homebrew at us and saying that it's at all legit or RAW. It's not. Even by the loose standards of 3rd party products it's not.

Now I'm done.

[HeyThereImBear]

Hm. looking into the build of the spire, I guess it was more for laughs. If you check the Dungeon Masters Guide, the spire doesn't emanate the effect. I'll concede defeat on that one.

Though, I'm still curious as to how you kill hilda. Killing the thing that should not be is easy. You just need to hit it. But Hilda has more than 1 thing specifically saying she can not die.


As for fighting pun-pun. Let's figure this one out:

Both have inf stats, every class feature, the ability to acquire inf divine ranks, reach inf, etc. (pretty much everything ever. Everything I've found anyways).

Neither can be killed.

[HeyThereImBear]

Never mind. I've been married more than a decade and I know an exercise in futility when I see one.

This "character" is a steaming pile of misapplied, misused templates and a few class levels held together by a power fantasy so adolescent that I would have called it immature when I was twelve.

The entire process could have been simplified if you'd simply found a diceless system that let you write in any traits you wanted and went with that.

I'm fine with people having fun any way they want. Believe me kiddo I've tolerated things that others, even here on this board might have found very objectionable, as long as it was legal, I was cool.

But please stop shoveling these piles of steaming homebrew at us and saying that it's at all legit or RAW. It's not. Even by the loose standards of 3rd party products it's not.

Now I'm done.

Thank you, come again.

[docnessuno]

As for fighting pun-pun. Let's figure this one out:

Both have inf stats, every class feature, the ability to acquire inf divine ranks, reach inf, etc. (pretty much everything ever. Everything I've found anyways).

Neither can be killed.

So, assuming this is true (and i have my doubts on that), you just replicated Pun-Pun, using questionable sources and borderline rules interpretation.

Such a great feat.

[HeyThereImBear]

So, assuming this is true (and i have my doubts on that), you just replicated Pun-Pun, using questionable sources and borderline rules interpretation.

Such a great feat.

I made pun pun at level 1, that was semantically what I wanted it to be. It was also made for a specific campaign and was actually intended to be played (and was played, to delicious effect) at a very high ECL.

And I mean, I dunno. Let's see you do better. I took all the sources I had and combined them

[Irk]

I made pun pun at level 1

Pun Pun is already level 1, and I thought that your other build did not have every class ability but just immunity to everything. How did it get every class ability? Also, considering the Spire thing was not viable, would infinite CL have any affect?

[HeyThereImBear]

Classes through VA.

And no, if it has an effect, or otherwise does damage, I'm either healed by it or I negate it.

Other than loading me with magic items to give neg levels. In that case I just kind turn to dust and then come back.

[Irk]

Classes through VA.

And no, if it has an effect, or otherwise does damage, I'm either healed by it or I negate it.

Other than loading me with magic items to give neg levels. In that case I just kind turn to dust and then come back.
VA? and what if you're loaded with magic items made of thinaun?

[HeyThereImBear]

VA? and what if you're loaded with magic items made of thinaun?

Variant augmentation. Please see the deluxe book of templates 3.5 edition.

And it wouldn't do anything because I have multiple effects in place saying I can't be killed. And by 3.5 rules "xxx dies" means that it's reduced to -10 hp last time I checked, and hilda dies at -14.

[HeyThereImBear]

VA? and what if you're loaded with magic items made of thinaun?

Erm. Read thinaun wrong.


It still wouldn't do mych because you'd have to kill the character in the first place, which can not be done.

[MadGreenSon]

For anyone curious, the "template" being... not abused, more like misrepresented here is this



Variant Augmentation
You can add any sort of spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary ability to a creature. This process is made easier by several templates located in this section, such as the Spellpowered template, as well as the Aberrant template in Chapter 2. You can use the random chart in the Aberrant template to roll for random abilities and add them to a creature's body without making changes to the creature's body as a result.
If you're adventurous you can take pieces of existing templates and add them to monsters individually. If you want a creature that is able to absorb Strength (as the Siphon) and that has corrosive skin (as the Metallivore), you can just take those abilities and add them to the creature. Use the guidelines found with Table 1-7: Creature Challenge Rating (page 15) to help you determine the creature's new Challenge Rating.


It then goes on to demonstrate this idea by putting together a cute little template that makes a creature immune to a specific energy type.

Variant Augmentation is not a template. It's some homebrew guidelines for making your own templates.

Thus this whole thing is homebrew. I can homebrew invincible crap too.




Infused With Tiger's Blood (Ex) Any creature, being, deity, object or anything else that opposes you, bothers you, or inconveniences you in any way is retroactively erased from all universes, multiverses, timelines, dimensions and planes of existence before ever actually coming into existence. You do not have to be aware of the existence of these things in any way for this ability to take effect.
No power, ability, spell, power, planar trait, or any other effect, condition or anything else can prevent this ability from functioning.


There! Once I have that Variant Augmentation in place I'll barely need any other abilities except as flavor text!

[Vhaidara]

Also, how was it you were reducing your LA to not be +93 again? I thought I saw you mentioned Degenerate, but that has no effect at all on LA.

[MadGreenSon]

Also, how was it you were reducing your LA to not be +93 again? I thought I saw you mentioned Degenerate, but that has no effect at all on LA.

Theoretically, Degenerate can reduce LA if you use it to take abilities away from a creature that it's applied to.

There's been no mention of such ability stripping in this homebrew.

[Vhaidara]

Well, since he's only getting the good parts of templates (and not-templates, since I don't think the Tarrasque is a template), I doubt he would have any use for Degenerate.

[Irk]

One could just possess you in order to force you to fail a save against trait removal, strip all the abilities away, stab you with thinaun, target you with a no-SR SoD with irresistible spell, then use the truename utterance to change the material of thinaun into granite, then use that granite as a spell compnent with the rules about stored souls functioning as XP. Then grind the granite into dust, animate each speck, cast greater humanoid essence on each one and mindrape them into believing that they are each James K. Polk at a different stage of his presidency. THen place each speck on a different layer of the abyss. Then destroy those layers. Then teleport through time and mind rape James K. Polk into believing that he is a speck of dust. Then throw Polk into Mt. Doom. Buy a new rug. Done.

[(Un)Inspired]

Suck on that Polk.

[MadGreenSon]

Suck on that Polk.

Can't say he didn't have it coming. Going around being all... James K. Polk!


Too good for him really.

[Vhaidara]

One could just possess you in order to force you to fail a save against trait removal, strip all the abilities away, stab you with thinaun, target you with a no-SR SoD with irresistible spell, then use the truename utterance to change the material of thinaun into granite, then use that granite as a spell compnent with the rules about stored souls functioning as XP. Then grind the granite into dust, animate each speck, cast greater humanoid essence on each one and mindrape them into believing that they are each James K. Polk at a different stage of his presidency. THen place each speck on a different layer of the abyss. Then destroy those layers. Then teleport through time and mind rape James K. Polk into believing that he is a speck of dust. Then throw Polk into Mt. Doom. Buy a new rug. Done.

I can't decide if I want to sig this.

On one hand, it's hilarious.

On the other, it's really long and my sig is pretty full. And I just added to it today.

[ShadowFireLance]

One could just possess you in order to force you to fail a save against trait removal, strip all the abilities away, stab you with thinaun, target you with a no-SR SoD with irresistible spell, then use the truename utterance to change the material of thinaun into granite, then use that granite as a spell compnent with the rules about stored souls functioning as XP. Then grind the granite into dust, animate each speck, cast greater humanoid essence on each one and mindrape them into believing that they are each James K. Polk at a different stage of his presidency. THen place each speck on a different layer of the abyss. Then destroy those layers. Then teleport through time and mind rape James K. Polk into believing that he is a speck of dust. Then throw Polk into Mt. Doom. Buy a new rug. Done.

...*sigh*
Beat to it.

[Irk]

I can't decide if I want to sig this.

On one hand, it's hilarious.

On the other, it's really long and my sig is pretty full. And I just added to it today.
If you want to, I'd be honored, you could strip away the parts that are specific to this particular discussion.

[HeyThereImBear]

One could just possess you in order to force you to fail a save against trait removal, strip all the abilities away, stab you with thinaun, target you with a no-SR SoD with irresistible spell, then use the truename utterance to change the material of thinaun into granite, then use that granite as a spell compnent with the rules about stored souls functioning as XP. Then grind the granite into dust, animate each speck, cast greater humanoid essence on each one and mindrape them into believing that they are each James K. Polk at a different stage of his presidency. THen place each speck on a different layer of the abyss. Then destroy those layers. Then teleport through time and mind rape James K. Polk into believing that he is a speck of dust. Then throw Polk into Mt. Doom. Buy a new rug. Done.


Incoming protection from evil.

[Irk]

Incoming protection from evil.
Is it always on? also, persistent emanation: selective antimagic field or selective planar bubble with the dead magic trait to negate that, so no dice.

[HeyThereImBear]

Is it always on? also, persistent emanation:antimagic field or planar bubble with the dead magic trait to negate that, so no dice.


Yes, as per Astral Deva's aura.

Half creature metatemplate to gain, or I could just VA, but that's a fallback at this point.

EDIT: Also, Unique ability that says f*ck your antimagic.


OR, I just use the shadow weave. The dead magic one would work in theory, assuming that I fail the will save. Which can be ramped inf+ at this point.

[Irk]

Yes, as per Astral Deva's aura.

Half creature metatemplate to gain, or I could just VA, but that's a fallback at this point.
It's an Su ability and thus negated by the permanent emanation: selective antimagic field. AS are a good number of other things I'd imagine.

[HeyThereImBear]

It's an Su ability and thus negated by the permanent emanation: selective antimagic field. AS are a good number of other things I'd imagine.


Check dat edit.

[Vhaidara]

How are you going to fight MadGreenSon's character, who is Infused with Tiger Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17197447&postcount=45)?

[Irk]

Check dat edit.

What is the unique anti-antimagic ability from? how do you get infinite stats?

I could also just do irresistible spell selective planar bubble with the dead magic trait, and that works to to prevent any save from ever being allowed at all.

[HeyThereImBear]

How are you going to fight MadGreenSon's character, who is Infused with Tiger Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17197447&postcount=45)?

I mean if you really want to start joking about it then I'm playing a level 1 commoner with demon lord applied, with the unique ability of "I win".

Next?

[HeyThereImBear]

What is the unique anti-antimagic ability from? how do you get infinite stats?

I could also just do irresistible spell selective planar bubble with the dead magic trait, and that works to to prevent any save from ever being allowed at all.


Demon lord simply states I gain a "Unique ability" and a "Unique attack".

As for inf stats I /could/ just pun pun it. Or buff it with spells.

[Irk]

I mean if you really want to start joking about it then I'm playing a level 1 commoner with demon lord applied, with the unique ability of "I win".

Next?
The Irresistible selective planar bubble from permanent emanation that shuts down every Su ability you have without allowing any save and is cast at infinite CL either through wish or Ranger/Paladin tricks.

What source is demon lord from?

[Irk]

Or buff it with spells.
which would take an infinite amount of time.

[HeyThereImBear]

The Irresistible selective planar bubble from permanent emanation that shuts down every Su ability you have without allowing any save and is cast at infinite CL either through wish or Ranger/Paladin tricks.

What source is demon lord from?

Dragon 359.

"Most demon lords possess a few additional special qualities as well."

No where does it say that it's Su. Hell, no where is there even rules of what you can/can not do with it. Which means that it'd be locked in a stalemate of DL/fallen.

We can go at this all day, if you really want.

[HeyThereImBear]

which would take an infinite amount of time.

quickling template -> time stop as standard action -> 2 buffs as standard -> time stop again as standard. Rinse, repeat.

[MadGreenSon]

which would take an infinite amount of time.

Why are you bothering? His entire build is reliant on a badly done bit from Dragon and bad homebrew.

The (Ex) quality I homebrewed retroactively wins all conflicts before they start. No "VA" or Demon Lord template beats that because nothing can ever come into existence to beat that one thing.

And it's stupid.

Really, really stupid.

Like all bad homebrew, this should just be allowed to fade into the obscurity it rightfully belongs in.

[HeyThereImBear]

Why are you bothering? His entire build is reliant on a badly done bit from Dragon and bad homebrew.

The (Ex) quality I homebrewed retroactively wins all conflicts before they start. No "VA" or Demon Lord template beats that because nothing can ever come into existence to beat that one thing.

And it's stupid.

Really, really stupid.

Like all bad homebrew, this should just be allowed to fade into the obscurity it rightfully belongs in.

No, please, keep going. This is fun. :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

Why are you bothering? His entire build is reliant on a badly done bit from Dragon and bad homebrew.

The (Ex) quality I homebrewed retroactively wins all conflicts before they start. No "VA" or Demon Lord template beats that because nothing can ever come into existence to beat that one thing.

And it's stupid.

Really, really stupid.

Like all bad homebrew, this should just be allowed to fade into the obscurity it rightfully belongs in.

Dude come on, HeyThereImBear really needs this. Don't take it away from him.

[Kazyan]

Relaying on something that you've interpreted to mean that you can literally make something up...means that the whole thing is rather pointless, is it not?

[HeyThereImBear]

Dude come on, HeyThereImBear really needs this. Don't take it away from him.

guys srsly.

It's not like we've been going at this thread for hours or anything.

And counting the other thread(s), months.

I dunno, you all keep coming back, and yet, the tiger blood is the closest you've gotten.

[MadGreenSon]

Dude come on, HeyThereImBear really needs this. Don't take it away from him.

Oh fine! I'll indulge a little more. Just for you.



Relaying on something that you've interpreted to mean that you can literally make something up...means that the whole thing is rather pointless, is it not?

Yep. And it takes up valuable space on the front page that could be dedicated to talking about how monks suck or something else of real value.

[HeyThereImBear]

Relaying on something that you've interpreted to mean that you can literally make something up...means that the whole thing is rather pointless, is it not?

Dragging this thread on forever is also rather pointless, is it not?

[Irk]

One could just IHS away the condition created by the demon lord template.

[HeyThereImBear]

Yep. And it takes up valuable space on the front page that could be dedicated to talking about how monks suck or something else of real value.

And you guys are the reason it's still there :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[HeyThereImBear]

One could just IHS away the condition created by the demon lord template.

That's not how iron heart surge works, even if that /is/ just a lame forum joke.

[Kazyan]

Dragging this thread on forever is also rather pointless, is it not?

*shrugs* I just got here. I mean, if you're saying that by using something that literally lets you making stuff up, you can be unbeatable...well, yeah. I'm not disagreeing. It just feels trivial.


Yep. And it takes up valuable space on the front page that could be dedicated to talking about how monks suck or something else of real value.

Oh, yeah, people still do that too. Happy Monkday!

[HeyThereImBear]

*shrugs* I just got here. I mean, if you're say that by using something that literally lets you making stuff up, you can be unbeatable...well, yeah. I'm not disagreeing. It just feels trivial.



Oh, yeah, people still do that too. Happy Monkday!

Oh, well hey there. Welcome to my thread :smallbiggrin:

The elitists don't like me on their forum much. Probably why I'm still here.

[Irk]

Alright, I am going to do two things here: respond to the original OP and clear all this up.

First, 90 attack per round is decent, but I have seen more than one million on pre-epic builds, so you may want to look into that.

Now, by the SRD, special ability is synonymous with special ability, based on how alternate form, change shape, and damage reduction are listed as special qualities under special abilities. An ability can be natural, supernatural, extraordinary, or spell-like. For an ability to be natural, it has to have a physical manifestation, such as wings, horns, or claws. Thus, none of these demon lord ideas will fall under that category. THey are all either spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary. Were they spell-like or supernatural, they would be negated by the planar bubble, antimagic field, or any number of other effects. Therefore, your only choice is to make them extraordinary. How do we get rid of those? with trait removal. Oh, wait, you have an immunity to that kind of thing and insane SR. How do we get around that? well, it's easy, infinite CL + irresistible spell + trait removal. Done.

To summarize: Special quality means special ability. The special quality must be extraordinary,as the other options are not worth it or impossible. Therefore, we apply irresistible spell and an infinite CL to remove the extraordinary ability provided by demon lord, then proceed to remove everything else.

I win.

EDIT: I appreciate being able to have such an easy back and forth discourse through the internet, I don't consider this a plague at all, really. No I'm not being sarcastic, it's a good challenge.

[MadGreenSon]

guys srsly.

It's not like we've been going at this thread for hours or anything.

And counting the other thread(s), months.

I dunno, you all keep coming back, and yet, the tiger blood is the closest you've gotten.

Closest? Dude, my BS is way more powerful than that!




Creatures with this template retain their size, type, AC and all other traits not addressed in this template.

Special Qualities:
Charlie Sheen Style Winning (Ex): Anything, be it creature, spell, power, object or anything else that would be even a minor irritant to a creature, object or being with this template, even in theory, is erased from the fabric of all realities in any iteration, time, space or dimension before coming into existence. The creature, object or being with this template does not have to be in existence for this ability to function.
No trait, location or other condition of existence, real, imagined, or yet to exist provides any form of save, resistance or immunity to this ability.

In all other ways recipients of this template remain the same.



There. Are you happy (Un)Inspired?

[Kazyan]

Yeah, it turns out that TO sometimes draws forum aggro, depending on what you're doing with it. See the ExFigher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265730) thread (just don't necro it).

[Irk]

Closest? Dude, my BS is way more powerful than that!
Why not just add: "nothing else exists"?

[docnessuno]

Yeah, it turns out that TO sometimes draws forum aggro, depending on what you're doing with it. See the ExFigher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265730) thread (just don't necro it).

PLEASE don't compare this ... thing ... to TO.

Theoretical optimization is an art, this thread is just like a 14 years old with no artistic skills pretending to be the next Picasso.

[MadGreenSon]

Why not just add: "nothing else exists"?

I dunno. Generosity of spirit? :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

There. Are you happy (Un)Inspired?

Well just look how happy this thread is making him:


Oh, well hey there. Welcome to my thread :smallbiggrin:

The elitists don't like me on their forum much. Probably why I'm still here.

It warms my heart to see someone so pleased with themselves.

[MadGreenSon]

Well just look how happy this thread is making him:



It warms my heart to see someone so pleased with themselves.

You are a true humanitarian and a generous, loving soul.

[HeyThereImBear]

PLEASE don't compare this ... thing ... to TO.

Theoretical optimization is an art, this thread is just like a 14 years old with no artistic skills pretending to be the next Picasso.

As with most things, Art is relative.


Well just look how happy this thread is making him:



It warms my heart to see someone so pleased with themselves.


Warm heart.

[(Un)Inspired]

You are a true humanitarian and a generous, loving soul.

Ehhhhh... I'm min-maxed for jovial sarcasm when I should have put more points into work ethic and rad biceps.

[MadGreenSon]

Ehhhhh... I'm min-maxed for jovial sarcasm when I should have put more points into work ethic and rad biceps.

I hear work ethic is overrated after the errata anyway.

Biceps on the other hand, Biceps get you the circumstance bonus to picking up shallow, easy women. You shouldn't have skimped there, more pluses are always good.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I dunno, you all keep coming back, and yet, the tiger blood is the closest you've gotten.

That's because that was a joking attempt to use your rules to do it. Everyone else has been going after the fact that the very premise you stand upon outright ignores rules, but you refuse to get off it.

Now this is mostly a joke for people.

[MadGreenSon]

That's because that was a joking attempt to use your rules to do it. Everyone else has been going after the fact that the very premise you stand upon outright ignores rules, but you refuse to get off it.

Now this is mostly a joke for people.

Shhhh! Don't spoil it! He thinks he's winning something!

[Irk]

Shhhh! Don't spoil it! He thinks he's winning something!
It's cool, I beat him with SCIENCE

[Anlashok]

So... what. I make my own demon lord whose made up unique ability is to unmake your demon lord regardless of any defenses or saves or features?

I don't really understand the point of "optimizing" a character when "make up anything I want and pretend it's a rule" is one of your parameters.

[MadGreenSon]

It's cool, I beat him with SCIENCE

Oooh! You reminded me of the Scientist PrC from Ravenloft, which has the ability to build things that more or less duplicate magic items, but don't count as magic in any way. That's great for handling things with all sorts of immunities to magic and such.

I mean, technically there aren't even rules for how the Scientist does it. You can just say "I built a sphere of annihilation, with science" and boom! There ya go!

It's entirely not how I run the class in my Ravenloft game, but by RAW...

[Hiro Protagonest]

So... what. I make my own demon lord whose made up unique ability is to unmake your demon lord regardless of any defenses or saves or features?

I don't really understand the point of "optimizing" a character when "make up anything I want and pretend it's a rule" is one of your parameters.

Write a bunch of overpowered homebrew.

Make it a PDF.

Sell it on a site.

Bam, there's your third-party sourcebook for beating him.

[MadGreenSon]

Next time I play in a game rather than run, I'm gonna make a "Variant Augmentation" that gives my character the Manipulate Form ability, but make it useable on all humanoids and monstrous humanoids, including myself.

I'm not even gonna go Pun-Pun with it, it just sounds like a fun way to screw with people. :smallbiggrin:

[Honest Tiefling]

Also going to point out the fact that there is a spire on one of the outer planes that completely negates all forms of magic, psionics, divine salient abilities, and anything that is not a physical attack, of which an animated version could/would/was acquired through leadership.


Someone please explain this to me.

[MadGreenSon]

Someone please explain this to me.

Ok... I'll sum up. Replace all of the words in the quoted bit with "I'm not thinking about what I'm saying and this is all BS I'm making up to have a powerful character in a game with equally BS'd characters"

[Anlashok]

Write a bunch of overpowered homebrew.

Make it a PDF.

Sell it on a site.

Bam, there's your third-party sourcebook for beating him.

Oh I know that much. I get the idea.

I just don't get the point of trying to optimize a character when you're just making **** up. There's no challenge to overcome here, no puzzle to figure out.

Just someone saying "nuh uh. I beat that" over and over until they get bored? What does that accomplish?

[Vhaidara]

Someone please explain this to me.

He read about Outworld, including the Spire at its center. As you get closer, magic becomes less and less reliable, including the magic of gods themselves. At the base, gods are no better than mortals.

And somehow he thought that he could animate it and get it as a cohort without the Lady of Pain deleting him.

[HeyThereImBear]

So... what. I make my own demon lord whose made up unique ability is to unmake your demon lord regardless of any defenses or saves or features?

I don't really understand the point of "optimizing" a character when "make up anything I want and pretend it's a rule" is one of your parameters.


Then I'll use the fallen template to negate that with a similar ability.


Shhhh! Don't spoil it! He thinks he's winning something!

You're all so cute.


Someone please explain this to me.


Remove spire -> animate -> Awaken


He read about Outworld, including the Spire at its center. As you get closer, magic becomes less and less reliable, including the magic of gods themselves. At the base, gods are no better than mortals.

And somehow he thought that he could animate it and get it as a cohort without the Lady of Pain deleting him.

Please see the above. Your lady of pain means 0 to a DM that would allow it to happen, granted I could move the spire.

[Vhaidara]

The Lady of Pain is unstatted. She beats everything, including Pun-Pun, by virtue of being the Lady of Pain.

[Irk]

You're all so cute.

Dude, I beat you a page ago.


Alright, I am going to do two things here: respond to the original OP and clear all this up.

First, 90 attack per round is decent, but I have seen more than one million on pre-epic builds, so you may want to look into that.

Now, by the SRD, special ability is synonymous with special ability, based on how alternate form, change shape, and damage reduction are listed as special qualities under special abilities. An ability can be natural, supernatural, extraordinary, or spell-like. For an ability to be natural, it has to have a physical manifestation, such as wings, horns, or claws. Thus, none of these demon lord ideas will fall under that category. THey are all either spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary. Were they spell-like or supernatural, they would be negated by the planar bubble, antimagic field, or any number of other effects. Therefore, your only choice is to make them extraordinary. How do we get rid of those? with trait removal. Oh, wait, you have an immunity to that kind of thing and insane SR. How do we get around that? well, it's easy, infinite CL + irresistible spell + trait removal. Done.

To summarize: Special quality means special ability. The special quality must be extraordinary,as the other options are not worth it or impossible. Therefore, we apply irresistible spell and an infinite CL to remove the extraordinary ability provided by demon lord, then proceed to remove everything else.

I win.

[Anlashok]

Then I'll use the fallen template to negate that with a similar ability.
And then I use fallen to negate your negation. And it just goes around and around for.. what? To prove who's better at making up terrible ideas?


Nevermind that negating that counts as a defense, which, as already stated, this fictitious ability bypasses automatically.

Please see the above. Your lady of pain means 0 to a DM that would allow it to happen, granted I could move the spire.
Except that she wouldn't care for you moving said spire. So she mazes you and you lose.

[Kazyan]

I'm curious how you remove and then animate an infinitely tall (and presumably heavy) object that says "lol, no" to even a god's magic. That sounds...tricky.

[HeyThereImBear]

Dude, I beat you a page ago.


Last time I checked, The lumi's anti-beheading and positive energy adaptation were considered "special qualities". If you really want to get into this, we'll make it this simple.

1) that build still has the Iron Titan's AMF. So piss on your spells.
2) Even if you /did/ manage to negate it (through something like IHS) the effect would return the next round because you're standing inside of it. I've yet to find something that says IHS works othewise.

The fun part about that AMF is that I can still use my supernatural abilities. Epic spells? Well, I'm almost assured to go first (have multiple sources saying I go first), so why not just throw up an epic antimagic? IHS? Cute.

Your idea is golden, it really is. I like what you're trying to do. Except that it won't work against this specific build. It's 3rd party. I made it to be cheesier than Velveeta. So much cheese you'd swear I was a dairy farmer.

[(Un)Inspired]

Last time I checked, The lumi's anti-beheading and positive energy adaptation were considered "special qualities". If you really want to get into this, we'll make it this simple.

1) that build still has the Iron Titan's AMF. So piss on your spells.
2) Even if you /did/ manage to negate it (through something like IHS) the effect would return the next round because you're standing inside of it. I've yet to find something that says IHS works othewise.

The fun part about that AMF is that I can still use my supernatural abilities. Epic spells? Well, I'm almost assured to go first (have multiple sources saying I go first), so why not just throw up an epic antimagic? IHS? Cute.

Your idea is golden, it really is. I like what you're trying to do. Except that it won't work against this specific build. It's 3rd party. I made it to be cheesier than Velveeta. So much cheese you'd swear I was a dairy farmer.

I don't think Velveeta actual contains any cheese...

[HeyThereImBear]

I don't think Velveeta actual contains any cheese...

The sass is real. I don't hate you.

[MadGreenSon]

It's 3rd party. I made it to be cheesier than Velveeta. So much cheese you'd swear I was a dairy farmer.

Um. Your cheese is weak. "Variant Augmentation" as a template is meaningless because it can mean anything. You can just make up any silly ability and throw it in there. Same with your demon lord thing.

Where's the challenge? Where's the...anything? Why bother if you're not really gonna try? You can just throw any made up crap together you want, call it "Variant Augmentation" and call it a day.

So can anyone else.

What's the point?

[HeyThereImBear]

{Scrubbed}

[Anlashok]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Saying you "called them out" feels a bit disingenuous given the nature of this build, the fact that it's already been beaten a few times (but you just ignore those posts) and the fact that it's pretty much just homebrew.

Saying "Look at me I'm unstoppable" doesn't really mean anything when you just write "UNSTOPPABEL" in all caps on your character sheet and pretend you've made something.

Half your concepts don't even work (like the aforementioned spire).

It's not about it being "too op" or "unfair". It's about it being uninspired crap and not even particularly good.

I mean that's the real tragedy here. You homebrewed up a custom character for the sole purpose of waving your e-peen and the best you could come up with is a girl named "hilda" with 90 attacks and arbitrarily defined immunities?

That's underwhelming.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Saying you "called them out" feels a bit disingenuous given the nature of this build, the fact that it's already been beaten a few times (but you just ignore those posts) and the fact that it's pretty much just homebrew.

Saying "Look at me I'm unstoppable" doesn't really mean anything when you just write "UNSTOPPABEL" in all caps on your character sheet and pretend you've made something.

Yeah, you didn't call out Tippy on anything, unless it's the fact that he's honorable enough not to break the rules.

You didn't even find OP third party stuff. You found third-party stuff and then completely ignored some important rules of it, and did the same with official stuff too.

[HeyThereImBear]

{Scrubbed}

[Anlashok]

The spire works because if you can lift it (1700 str can lift the universe), you can move it out of the 100miles at the base of it because the SPIRE DOES NOT PROJECT THE EFFECT.

And then the Lady of Pain mazes you and you lose. As said a few posts ago.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The spire works because if you can lift it (1700 str can lift the universe), you can move it out of the 100miles at the base of it because the SPIRE DOES NOT PROJECT THE EFFECT.

How big is the spire? If it is infinite height, then it is also infinite weight.

[Kazyan]

The spire works because if you can lift it (1700 str can lift the universe), you can move it out of the 100miles at the base of it because the SPIRE DOES NOT PROJECT THE EFFECT.

Wait, 1700 Str can lift the universe if we're assuming our world's (finite) universe. A lot of stuff in D&D is literally infinite, such as the Spire's height, so that logic doesn't apply...and if the spire doesn't project the effect, how does it still negate stuff when it's walking around and animated?

[(Un)Inspired]

{Scrubbed}

[MadGreenSon]

{scrubbed}

[HeyThereImBear]

{scrubbed}

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked for review.