Advice on a gestalt monk/swordsage/ninja?

[gadren]

My wife and I are currently playing in a high-power Eberron campaign with Pathfinder rules (but almost any D&D 3.5 classes, feats, and equipment published by WotC are allowed, subject to DM approval). PCs in this game are gestalt, and UE flaws are allowed (for 2 potential bonus feats at character creation). The DM has stated that he intends to only give us about half the WBL rewards. We are starting as level 2 characters.

DM's gestalt rules:
At each level, you level up in two different classes. You get the class abilities, spells, etc, from both classes. You take the Base attack, Hit die, skill points per level, and base saves that are better from either class. (So a [fighter 1] / [wizard 1] would have BAB +1, Base Saves: F+2 R+0 W+2, 2+int skill points per level, a d10 hit die, 1 1st level feat, a fighter bonus feat, Scribe Scroll, arcane bond, and 1st level wizard spells. You would be considered a 1st level PC / 1 HD creature for relevant effects.)
Feats, class abilities, etc. that add two class levels together to determine your "effective level" for a class ability cannot make your effect level exceed your hitdice unless it specifically states it can do so. (For example, if you were a [Rogue 4] / [Barbarian 1/Scout 3], and took the Swift Hunter feat, it would boost your effect scout level to 4 for skirmishing, NOT to 7.

My wife is looking for some build advice, and while I'm a decent char-opter, I'm more used to playing casters, so I thought I'd get your guys' input as well.

My wife has rolled 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 14 on her ability scores (We got to roll twelve scores and keep the 6 best.). She really wants to be a Vanara (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vanaras)unarmed martial artist with stealthy tendencies. She is also used to 4e, so gets bored with melee characters that just roll attack rolls every round, and likes ToB (which is allowed, but the variant unarmedsage is not).

I have suggested a [monk 2]/[swordsage 1/ninja 1] (the ninja is the pathfinder alternate rogue, not the WotC class), she likes that build for a start.

I was thinking of recommending focusing on dex and wisdom most, and getting weapon finesse and shadow blade feats to use dex for melee attack and damage. Maybe also Kung Fu genius feat to stack the Swordsage and Monk AC bonuses?

Any recommendations for swordsage maneuvers, other feat choices, archetypes, class advancement, etc? Do you think she should take the martial artist archetype for monk?

If it matters, the following is the tentative level 2 party makeup:

Me: gnome [Erudite 2]/[Artificer 2] - opting towards item creation at the biggest discount I can manage because of the WBL cut.
R: Warforged [Monk 2]/[Magus 2]
P: Aasimar [Crusader 1/Paladin 1]/[Cleric 2]
T: Human [Ranger 2]/[Psiwar 2]
M: Human [Witch 2]/[Druid 2]

[Adverb]

Can we maybe hear from your wife as to what she's looking for?

[gadren]

Can we maybe hear from your wife as to what she's looking for?

She has legitimate reasons for not being on the forum due to some unfortunate past experience.

She likes the idea of playing a monkey person (Vanara race), and she wants to do kung fu that takes advantage of her monkey abilities, like dropping down from the ceiling on unsuspecting enemies and such.

[Adverb]

I'm sort of fascinated by anyone choosing to allow an Artificer/Erudite, and Pathfinder material, but disallowing Unarmed Swordsage, which AFAICT is 3.5's #1 variant class.

I don't know much about Pathfinder, so can't really help there. If you want to go more 3.5, there's the Hadozee race in Stormwrack.

If I were making a gestalt character, I'd go pretty far out of my way to avoid having to take levels of swordsage and monk at the same time, since they're very similar in terms of BAB/saves/HD/skills. If I were dedicated to creating the gestalt punching master, I'd want UA Swordsage first, but if that weren't an option, I'd probably want to take some levels as Monk/Warblade, and then maybe also a couple levels of Fighter/Swordsage, then Warblade/Swordsage all the way. (Actually, probably better to take Swordsage at level 1 for skill point reasons.)

Warblade is definitely worth a second look. Every fighter wants dex/con, and most want str, and Warblades also want int. With your godly stat array, this might be useful. Also, the flavor of Iron Heart stuff is really good for "I am so disciplined that I am the best ever". Using Wall of Blades barehanded is a sweet way to parry a Scorching Ray, plus it makes you feel as cool as Darth Vader.

[thethird]

I personally would go with:

Monk 2 / Ninja X
Fighter 2 / Warblade X

Taking the ascetic stalker feat so Ninja and monk levels stack for unarmed combat.
You will probably also want invisible fist acf from exemplars of evil (to get superior invisibility once every three rounds).

This will get you full BAB which is important to be able to hit in melee, and good reflex and fortitude. Getting some of the warblade maneuvers to compliment your will saves and make them stronger.

It also gets the warblade recharge method which is superior.

Consider Carmendine Monk (or Kung fu genius) to move the bonus to AC to int, making a more int focused character. The focus on int mixes well with warblade and also grants more skills for your sneaking around.

Other than that several of the classical recomendation for sneak attackers are on the table, darkstalker, craven, staggering strike, etc.

[Metahuman1]

There's a feat in Tome of Battle, called superior unarmed strike. Give her that. Not quite as much damage as a monks, but close.

Now, there's a spell in races of the dragon called greater mighty wallop. give her an item of this and see if the DM will throw her a bone and let it boost her unarmed strike damage seven size category's to a theoretical effective level of Colossal++.

Congratulations, for the cost of a feat, an Item and a DM rules tweak, your wifes character hit's like a Colossal+ Sized monk, or, like any monk who did the sensible thing and made it a priority to get an item of greater mighty wallop. Which, like Enlarge Person, every monk get's access too no matter what.



So, I know nothing about Pathfinder Ninja, but let me suggest some alternatives to Swordsage//PF Ninja.

Binder: Flavorful and versatile, lot's of neat synergistic tricks, and leaves you with all good saves. Though it does make you want at least some CHA.

Incarnate or Totemist: Just like above, but instead of making you also want at least some CHA, they make it harder to use gear, though in this game, that might be more a boon then a hindrance. Totemist has a somewhat less impressive/diverse soulmeld list far as I know, but it has a good fort save so that all your saves are good.

Bard: Nice Skill List, and with Jack of All Trades + Bardic Knack, it can save you a tone of skill points while greatly adding to your versatility/adaptability. Good spell list for stealth and buffing, and bardic music can, for a feat, be used to just fuel meta magic, or can be fueled off Preform: Weapons Drill if you wanna STAY stealthy/keep your hands free in battle. Doesn't really help your actual Chassie much though.

Ranger: Five feats that you can retrain into what ever using PHB 2's rules (Or, 4, if you swap the first level one for trap finding.), and the mystic ranger variant gives you some wonderful wis based spell casting options, along with once again, getting you all good saves, and full BAB to boot.

Ardent or Psi-warrior: Good fort on the Psi-warrior, and both give you a wide range of Psionc powers to play with and do all sorts of thematic things. Psi-warrior is the other favorite monk replacement form Unarmed swordsage. Ardent has a number of mantles that give it a bunch of neat tricks, while Psi-warrior offers a good list of bonus feats. If you know the sub-system at all, it's hard to go wrong here.

Martial Rogue: Fighter Bonus feats instead of sneak attack, Rogues Skills and class features, all you'd really need here for this to be the perfect passive side to the Gestalt would be to find a way to get the good fort save.

Warblade: Extra Access to maneuvers, including from two schools swordsage can't use, full BAB, D12 hit die and a good fort save make this a very strong option. If you wanna just relegate Wis to a tershiary stat, pick up kung fu genius and keen intellect as feats and enjoy the massive surge of int mod as a bonus to things. =)

Crusader: Delayed Damage Pool and Furious Counter Strike make for a nice Iron body martial arts deal, and never running out of all maneuvers, ever, in battle, is probably gonna appeal to your wife. D10 hit die, good fort save and full BAB makes this the second best chassie. Class features except for mettle are lack luster here, but can be made a bit more useful with the Ascetic Mage feat and Force of Personality feat form Complete Adventurer. On top of that, White Rave and Devoted Spirit maneuvers and a place to stick that mountain hammer maneuvers gives you some nice tricks.

Shadow Magic Adept: It's from Tome of Magic, and, to be honest, I've never played it. I hear it has a hard time at low levels but it has some nice tricks, so, maybe worth considering for a gestalt. Also, for LA 1 on one side of the gestalt, the Shadow Creature Template form that part of Tome of Magic is very nice for a stealthy/ninjaish character.

Cleric or Druid: These classes are amazing in there versatility and ability to help any concept work and work powerfully, and the best part, given that your using swordsage, won't increase MAD at all. Getting you that fort save and possibly expanding your skill list are also nice touches.


Any of these combined with the first trick I threw at you up top and a swordsage with stealth/scouting skill investment + investment in Shadow hand as well as other schools (Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw/Setting Sun depending on what you want to do, with of course, mountain Hammer in there somewhere.), then throwing monk on one side of the gestalt and dividing swordsage and ninja levels on the other.

Happy Trails. =)

[animewatcha]

Since you guys are doing pathfinder, and Wotc is used, what about dragon/dungeon?

[Nightraiderx]

If you do try for the psiwarrior, go for the Pathfinder updated psionics one, it can thematically fit with swordsage to grant a mix of powers, you'll get sneak attack from assassin stance, more from the assassin like tree of psiwarrior.
Also, just grab tashlatora feat so you can have unarmed strikes, flurry of blows and unarmored bonus to AC, this leads to using inertia armor for a higher AC bonus. also expansion power as well.

[gadren]

I'm sort of fascinated by anyone choosing to allow an Artificer/Erudite, and Pathfinder material, but disallowing Unarmed Swordsage, which AFAICT is 3.5's #1 variant class.
It's because unarmed sage isn't actually stated out as a variant class like the others. There's just a couple sentences that says the DM can adapt the class if he wants, and one possible way is giving the sage unarmed progression. It's not how I'd rule, but I'm not DM, and I have a personal rule about not arguing with the DM unless it is over something egregious.



If I were making a gestalt character, I'd go pretty far out of my way to avoid having to take levels of swordsage and monk at the same time, since they're very similar in terms of BAB/saves/HD/skills. If I were dedicated to creating the gestalt punching master, I'd want UA Swordsage first, but if that weren't an option, I'd probably want to take some levels as Monk/Warblade, and then maybe also a couple levels of Fighter/Swordsage, then Warblade/Swordsage all the way. (Actually, probably better to take Swordsage at level 1 for skill point reasons.)
Well, it's worth noting that PF monk has a few changes. It's is basically treated as having a full BAB when using monk weapons. At level 4, it's gets a pool of ki points equal to 1/2 monk level + wis. These points can be spent to make an additional attack with no penalty, even if you've only made a standard action attack or used a maneuver. (They can be used for other things too, but that's the best use for them.)


Warblade is definitely worth a second look. Every fighter wants dex/con, and most want str, and Warblades also want int. With your godly stat array, this might be useful. Also, the flavor of Iron Heart stuff is really good for "I am so disciplined that I am the best ever". Using Wall of Blades barehanded is a sweet way to parry a Scorching Ray, plus it makes you feel as cool as Darth Vader. I agree and actually suggested that, but she wants to go for guerrilla ambushing and skirmishing, and swordsage has shadowhand, which gives access to the +dex to damage feat and a lot of maneuvers that go with the theme she wants.



There's a feat in Tome of Battle, called superior unarmed strike. Give her that. Not quite as much damage as a monks, but close.
Requires BAB +3, so no way to have that at game start, and she wants to do Kung fu out of the gate.


Now, there's a spell in races of the dragon called greater mighty wallop. give her an item of this and see if the DM will throw her a bone and let it boost her unarmed strike damage seven size category's to a theoretical effective level of Colossal++.
We'll def be casting that on the monks when we're high enough level to cast that.


Congratulations, for the cost of a feat, an Item and a DM rules tweak, your wifes character hit's like a Colossal+ Sized monk, or, like any monk who did the sensible thing and made it a priority to get an item of greater mighty wallop. Which, like Enlarge Person, every monk get's access too no matter what. The DM is giving us a lot of personal power as characters, but is being stingy with treasure and what magic items he allows. I'll push it as much as I can as an artificer, but I'm not taking being able to get any specific item for granted, no less making items of x spell and expecting the GM to follow the DMG guidelines that closely.



So, I know nothing about Pathfinder Ninja, but let me suggest some alternatives to Swordsage//PF Ninja.
PF Ninja is an alternate class for rogue, which is basically a rogue with a set of ACFs. Basically it gets everything the rogue gets except for trap finding and evasion, but gains a ki pool that stacks with the monks ki pool as well as ninja tricks that are learned every other level that allow new uses for ki, modifications to sneak attack, picking up bonus feats, and other stuff, depending which trick you learn.
Thanks for the class suggestions, I'll show them to her!


Since you guys are doing pathfinder, and Wotc is used, what about dragon/dungeon?

GM allows some things on a case by case basis but often says no.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Keep in mind that the "AC bonus" class feature of Monk, Swordsage, etc. is all considered the same source for an unnamed bonus, so they never stack. Even though the mechanics of each one are slightly different, they all bear the same name so they're still considered the same source. So this character will only add their Wis bonus to AC one time.

[animewatcha]

GM allows some things on a case by case basis but often says no.

If you don't do Pathfinder monk, then maybe chaotic monk? The charge ability should fit in with what wanted. Runs offa wis mod times per day. DC is set to 10 + class level.

[thethird]

Okay seeing the comments above

She really needs to check out the ascetic stalker (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/ascetic-stalker--130/) feat (from complete scoundrel), this basically gives her what she wants. Allowing her to stick monk and ninja for unarmed strike. This gets her more levels of ninja shenanigans. That means that monk 1 / Ninja 19 has as much unarmed strike as monk 20. It also stacks for ki pool which is probably interesting for her. Note that the monk can select the feat at level 1 or 2 without meeting the prerequisites because monks don't need to meet the prerequisites for their bonus feats. This will allow her to go with more levels of ninja and swordsage.

Monk 2 is a really good level, it gives an extra level with all good saves (which is good) but mostly gives access to invisible fist ACF (from Exemplars of Evil) which trades away evasion and allows to be invisible for a round, it doesn't break on attacks, and works once every 3 rounds. If she wants to sneak around and have some shenanigans this is the way to go.

Other useful things for the monk in this case are unearthed arcana martial arts, sleeping tiger is probably the most useful, since she seems to have an interest in DEX use, sleeping tiger gives a +2 to hide (useful for sneaking around) and access to weapon finesse.

She probably also should look at the elemental ninjas (detailed in dragon magazine 354) this basically gives other uses for the ki pool. Since I'm a big fan of invisible fist, trading away ninja invisibility for something useful. I personally like water ninja (gains obscuring mist) or earth ninja (gains meld into stone).

There are some ninja exclusive feats, that are worth looking into in dragon magazine 342 and dragon magazine 351.

Summing up I would build a human monk 2 // Swordsage 2 (and then branch into ninja in the monk side)

Level 1 feats: Adaptive Style (mandatory for a swordsage); Shadow Blade
Monk feats: Weapon finesse, Ascetic Stalker
Monk ACFs: Sleeping Tiger, Invisible Fist
Swordsage options: Discipline focus (shadow hand)

Maneuvers wise:
Distracting ember (DW)
Moment of Perfect Mind (DM)
Sapphire nightmare blade (DM)
Mighty Throw (SS)
Shadow Blade Technique (SH)
Sudden Leap (TC)
Wolf Fang Strike (TC)

Stance wise:
Child of Shadows (SH)
Island of Blades (SH)

This gets DEX to attack and damage which seems to be her thing, some invisibility and an easy way to jump into ninja shenanigans. Once in ninja I would probably go with water ninja because I really like mist effects, but that is up to her.

Some feats that she will probably want down the way:
Craven (increases greatly the damage; should take this at level 3 or 6)
Darkstalker (would actually make her able to sneak most monsters; again take this at level 3 or 6)
Snap kick (it's an extra unarmed attack)
Staggering strike (staggered is a nasty condition)
Improved natural attack (unarmed strike) (will increase unarmed damage)
Superior unarmed strike (will increase unarmed damage)

[animewatcha]

Higher up if you can grab iron will ( 3000 gp value if you go to prison or whatever wondrous location Comp scoun IIRC ), combat expertise or something that counts as, and alertness feats. You can take one level of shiba protector ( bab 5 race human of pheonix clan if using OA sterf and a few ranks of Know-religion ) to add wis mod to attack and damage rolls.

-edited for reference-

[gadren]

Okay seeing the comments above

She really needs to check out the ascetic stalker (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/ascetic-stalker--130/) feat (from complete scoundrel), this basically gives her what she wants. Allowing her to stick monk and ninja for unarmed strike. This gets her more levels of ninja shenanigans. That means that monk 1 / Ninja 19 has as much unarmed strike as monk 20. It also stacks for ki pool which is probably interesting for her. Note that the monk can select the feat at level 1 or 2 without meeting the prerequisites because monks don't need to meet the prerequisites for their bonus feats. This will allow her to go with more levels of ninja and swordsage.
Except you can only qualify for that feat with at least four levels of monk. Ascetic rogue would work, though, since PF ninja levels count as rogue levels.


Monk 2 is a really good level, it gives an extra level with all good saves (which is good) but mostly gives access to invisible fist ACF (from Exemplars of Evil) which trades away evasion and allows to be invisible for a round, it doesn't break on attacks, and works once every 3 rounds. If she wants to sneak around and have some shenanigans this is the way to go.

Other useful things for the monk in this case are unearthed arcana martial arts, sleeping tiger is probably the most useful, since she seems to have an interest in DEX use, sleeping tiger gives a +2 to hide (useful for sneaking around) and access to weapon finesse.

She probably also should look at the elemental ninjas (detailed in dragon magazine 354) this basically gives other uses for the ki pool. Since I'm a big fan of invisible fist, trading away ninja invisibility for something useful. I personally like water ninja (gains obscuring mist) or earth ninja (gains meld into stone).

There are some ninja exclusive feats, that are worth looking into in dragon magazine 342 and dragon magazine 351.
I'll look for those feats. I have a big box in the garage with all of Dragon's print issues.


Summing up I would build a human monk 2 // Swordsage 2 (and then branch into ninja in the monk side)

Level 1 feats: Adaptive Style (mandatory for a swordsage); Shadow Blade
Monk feats: Weapon finesse, Ascetic Stalker
Monk ACFs: Sleeping Tiger, Invisible Fist
Swordsage options: Discipline focus (shadow hand)
Again, you're ignoring the prereqs for some of these feats. Also, she has her heart set on playing a Vanara. She's drawn a picture and everything.


Maneuvers wise:
Distracting ember (DW)
Moment of Perfect Mind (DM)
Sapphire nightmare blade (DM)
Mighty Throw (SS)
Shadow Blade Technique (SH)
Sudden Leap (TC)
Wolf Fang Strike (TC)

Stance wise:
Child of Shadows (SH)
Island of Blades (SH)
Hah, this is almost exactly the list of maneuvers she'd already picked out. Great minds.


Some feats that she will probably want down the way:
Craven (increases greatly the damage; should take this at level 3 or 6)
Darkstalker (would actually make her able to sneak most monsters; again take this at level 3 or 6)
Snap kick (it's an extra unarmed attack)
Staggering strike (staggered is a nasty condition)
Improved natural attack (unarmed strike) (will increase unarmed damage)
Superior unarmed strike (will increase unarmed damage)

Had most of these earmarked already, but we'll check out craven and darkstalker!


Higher up if you can grab iron will ( 3000 gp value if you go to prison or whatever wondrous location Comp scoun IIRC ), combat expertise or something that counts as, and alertness feats. You can take one level of shiba protector ( bab 5 race human of pheonix clan if using OA sterf and a few ranks of Know-religion ) to add wis mod to attack and damage rolls.

-edited for reference-

She really has her heart set on playing a vanara. That shiba protector dip would've been awesome, though.


Keep in mind that the "AC bonus" class feature of Monk, Swordsage, etc. is all considered the same source for an unnamed bonus, so they never stack. Even though the mechanics of each one are slightly different, they all bear the same name so they're still considered the same source. So this character will only add their Wis bonus to AC one time.

Which is why I asked in the OP if people think Kung-Fu genius is worth it, since it'd allow her to add both int and wis instead of just wis, I believe.

[thethird]

Except you can only qualify for that feat with at least four levels of monk. Ascetic rogue would work, though, since PF ninja levels count as rogue levels.

Ascetic stalker has the following mumbo jumbo: "Special: A monk can select Ascetic Stalker as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, or 6th level instead of one of the other feats indicated for those levels (PH 41)."

A monk as always "need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them."


Again, you're ignoring the prereqs for some of these feats. Also, she has her heart set on playing a Vanara. She's drawn a picture and everything.

Of course I am they are monk bonus feats after all :smallamused:

As a Vanara I would probably drop shadow blade, adaptive style is pretty much a necessity for swordsages.

[Phelix-Mu]

I found a dip in Shadowsun Ninja to be win flavor and a useful mechanic for an epic level monk/wiz I was playing. Might be worth a look, since I think the maneuvers for this character probably already qualify. A one-level dip is pretty nice, netting a fairly versatile healing technique and a new form of damage (negative energy...can be quite useful).

Finally, the fluff of that PrC is pretty cool itself, and could easily be refluffed into a number of interesting themes (particularly mythical/philosophical ones that might be interesting to combine with a Vanara...I'm thinking some Hinduism-esque flavor).

Anyway, this sounds like a cool concept. Props to the OP's wife for some interesting ideas.