[PF] Drow "Spy" 15

[Spore]

Greetings,

I need an evil Drow spy/assassin for my next session. He has to be able to get into and out of houses, get behind high magical security (high as in standard settings, not high in Tippyverse measurements) and be able to assassinate possible targets without leaving traces.

Source books are : CRB, APG, ARG, UM, UC and UE if I translate singular items

So much for flavor: For crunch I expect a decent DPR (OR being able to get to and remove a threat from the field with a bit of build up) as well as high mobility, decent melee capability and being somewhat average with ranged weapons. Poison usage is smart but probably not a running theme as our house i getting attacked by devil worshippers.

I am aware that even on 15 I can't OTK an adequate encounter. I am aware that rogues are a terrible choice. Now I need solutions. I have seen the investigator and am trying to push it to be allowed. Meanwhile I need some good ideas to combine the following:

Sandman Bard: I like spell steal and the bard spell list + Cha + huge amount of skills should allow me to bluff, disguise and/or stealth my way into every fortress.

Arcane Trickster: Not really an option since I switched my character up from a sorcerer because the spell variety on 15 was too much for me to handle. Still, ATing somewhat narrows down the spell selection considerably (and I do not have to pick my spells for eternity).

Ninja: Works great on the Dex/Cha combo, and I can see Vanishing Trick + Invisible Blade for combat with the other tricks being good for non combat situations. Strong competitor.

Master Spy: Pretty much what the character is doing but I fear the combat performance is terrible for a 15ish hero.

Assassin: Somehow a class designed around a trick that a ninja can simply buy doesn't seem so smart.

None of the above: Keep in mind, I can refluff things. I do not need to have "assassin" been written on my sheet to be the chief assassin of the party. Everything I need is to gather information, to kill target people (who aren't necessarily even up to HD 15) and not completely suck in combat. Although as a player combat performance is important to me.

Uh, by the way, the party consists of drow cleric and a drow magus.

[Feint's End]

Well you don't need a high dpr to assassinate people. You just need one hefty coup de grace in most cases.

Therefor let me throw in the Cryptic ... awesome stealth, swimming, climbing, trapexpert, dispel psionics, decent dmg (enough to coup de grace). Basically all the good stuff of a rogue + better.

If you need buildadvise let me know.

[Spore]

3rd party and psionics are no option. I will edit source books above.

[(Un)Inspired]

If you want to actually do damage with sneak attack you need the telekinesis spell.

Pathfinder has done its very best to prevent pcs from doing useful amounts of damage.

Without the existence of unseen seer and spells that increase sneak attack I think you're gonna be stuck with something like rogue 3/ wizard 7/ arcane trickster 10. Take two of those traits that reduce metamagic costs for one spell by 1 each. Select telekinesis as your spell

Carry dozens of shuriken on you at all times and when you need to kill someone cast telekinesis followed by quickened telekinesis.


You can hit your victim with 30 shuriken each doing 7d6 sneak attack for 210d6 damage.

It's still not terrific damage but it should kill most unprepared targets.

[The Prince of Cats]

Well you don't need a high dpr to assassinate people. You just need one hefty coup de grace in most cases.
Dump your levels in rogue (even the spy archetype) and a coup de grace is lethal almost 100% of the time.

If the damage (auto-crit) plus sneak attack damage doesn't do it, the Fort save tends to be impossible to make because it has 10 + damage as the DC.

For example, the highest save at the table in my level 7 group is my rogue's +11 (on reflex) and even that requires a cloak of protection +2 to get it that high. So 21 damage is a 100% lethal hit and that is actually dead-on the average damage of a level-7 rogue with a rapier (2d6 rapier + 4d6 sneak) even before strength bonuses.

At level 15, you are looking at 10d6 damage (2d6 rapier, 8d6 sneak) for an average DC of 45 against instant death. Even a level-15 fighter is not likely to have that high a fort save. (Paladins, on the other hand...)

A drow will tend to favour poisons; con-poisons are deadly alone because each failure to save reduces the victim's saving throws against the next round's damage. They also reduce their fort-save against a coup de grace and Pathfinder's poisons add a cumulative +2 to the DC even if your target saves vs. the first one...

[Sayt]

Ninja's make excellent assassins.

Rather than the investigator, I'd push for the Slayer. It has less sneak attack, but more BAB to fuel Piranha Strike or Power Attack, Slayer's Focus constitutes a useful and versatile accuracy, damage, social skill, stealth and DC buff (They can get the assassinate ninja talent) Pick up Hellcat pounce, improved two weapon feint, and go to town.

Alternatively, one could try a Ranger, dumping all your FE into one type and using instant enemy.

As to "Not letting PCs do useful amounts of damage." I'm not sure I agree, but that depends on the definition of useful you're using. Can you Ubercharge for 9999 damage? No. Do you need to? Not really, in my experience.

[(Un)Inspired]

Ninja's make excellent assassins.

Rather than the investigator, I'd push for the Slayer. It has less sneak attack, but more BAB to fuel Piranha Strike or Power Attack, Slayer's Focus constitutes a useful and versatile accuracy, damage and DC buff (They can get the assassinate ninja talent) Pick up Hellcat pounce, improved two weapon feint, and go to town.

Alternatively, one could try a Ranger, dumping all your FE into one type and using instant enemy.

As to "Not letting PCs do useful amounts of damage." I'm not sure I agree, but that depends on the definition of useful you're using. Can you Ubercharge for 9999 damage? No. Do you need to? Not really, in my experience.

Ubbercharging isn't really what I was talking about. You know this isn't final fantasy right? Damage doesn't cap at 9999. If someone's got a character that "damage focused" then they better be able to do enough damage to kill a level appropriate threat in one round.

Pathfinder made that much harder. Not impossible, mind you as my above example illustrates, but certainly harder and it's much more build restrictive.

Power attack and arcane strike have training wheels put on them and there aren't nearly as many ways to stack str bonuses or add extra ability scores to damage or shadow pounce.

Maneuvers weren't included (bless you Dreamscarred Press) nor were power attack multipliers.

You can't grow enormous numbers of natural attacks and yes, ubberchargers don't exist the way they did before.

Pathfinder did a lot of rearranging and one of the results of that was dashing the variety of ways that mundanes could do damage.

[Sayt]

I just picked 9999 because it's an arbitrarily, unnecessarily large number with some memetic hook in my brain.

And thank you for clarifying your meaning, although 'Level appropriate threat'is, IMHO, a bit broad. A skill/sneak based threat is likely to be easier to drop (once located), than a Barbarian built Like a Brick....outhouse.

And while I grant that everything you've said is true, I'm not sure I agree with the premise that you need to be able to take down an appropriate threat every round, although the constitution of such is variable, and honestly this is gonna come down to the group's playstyle and the GM's tendencies and preferences.

[(Un)Inspired]

I just picked 9999 because it's an arbitrarily, unnecessarily large number with some memetic hook in my brain.

And thank you for clarifying your meaning, although 'Level appropriate threat'is, IMHO, a bit broad. A skill/sneak based threat is likely to be easier to drop (once located), than a Barbarian built Like a Brick....outhouse.

And while I grant that everything you've said is true, I'm not sure I agree with the premise that you need to be able to take down an appropriate threat every round, although the constitution of such is variable, and honestly this is gonna come down to the group's playstyle and the GM's tendencies and preferences.

Well said. I agree

[Spore]

You all talk about getting a target helpless like its the easiest thing in the world. Sure we have a Cleric but I need ways of getting my target helpless besides Hold Person. Preferrably a mundane one that doesn't necessarily use poisons (since the DCs are made for low level NPCs and not CR appr. encounters).

[(Un)Inspired]

You all talk about getting a target helpless like its the easiest thing in the world. Sure we have a Cleric but I need ways of getting my target helpless besides Hold Person. Preferrably a mundane one that doesn't necessarily use poisons (since the DCs are made for low level NPCs and not CR appr. encounters).

I think they're assuming that you're using stealth to stab people in their sleep.

[Spore]

I think they're assuming that you're using stealth to stab people in their sleep.

Regarding this: Does elven meditation count as being helpless?

[(Un)Inspired]

Nope. That's the benefit they get for having it.

[Spore]

Nope. That's the benefit they get for having it.

Aw crap. I guess 95% of targets are Drow Elves down there.

[(Un)Inspired]

Aw crap. I guess 95% of targets are Drow Elves down there.

That's why you gotta use my build.

Just squirt some grease under them and they're flat footed.

Or use greater invisibility to stick them with all thirty shuriken while remaining invisible

Or black tentacle them so they're sneak attackable

Or web them.

[Arutema]

Regarding this: Does elven meditation count as being helpless?

PF took out the bit about elves trancing instead of sleeping, so PF elves sleep normally. Happy hunting.

[The Prince of Cats]

You all talk about getting a target helpless like its the easiest thing in the world. Sure we have a Cleric but I need ways of getting my target helpless besides Hold Person. Preferrably a mundane one that doesn't necessarily use poisons (since the DCs are made for low level NPCs and not CR appr. encounters).
Make sure you use the surprise round to get into position (or use a Quick Runner's Shirt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/shirt-quick-runners)) and then devote your first round to a full-attack.

A dual-wielding rogue at level 15 with all the TWF feats is doing 6 attacks per round. Beat the opponent's initiative to have them flat-footed for the whole first round (or delay your action until an allied character can move to flank) and that's 6 chances to sneak-attack. Denied their dex-bonus, the enemy is likely to take maybe four our of those six based on my experience; that's 32d6 (average of 112 damage if I have my maths right) before you add weapon damage and strength bonus on each one, maybe a crit (good odds of at least one crit out of six rolls) to throw in one more die.

With some way of applying poison to each hit (or the very easy 'poison hits twice before being removed') you are looking at four saves, each one at +2 DC, and maybe they'll fail one. If the poison you use causes unconsciousness (like the notoriously low-DC drow poison) then you are looking at a helpless target in round 2 who is already about 140hp down when you use your coup de grace (though a rogue does better damage just going with a full-attack with all six attacks and doesn't provoke any AoO from the target's allies either)

A pair of assassins (paired flanking rogues are dangerous) can share the flanking bonus and double the fun. They also double the number of poisoned attacks (which doubles the DC increase) to double the chance of paralysing or knocking out the opponent.

[Ravens_cry]

Seriously, Ninja. The stats work for your race, and the ninja tricks scram assassinate. One of their master tricks even emulates the Assassin ability, only it does it better since you only need a round of prep. That, two weapon fighting, and Invisible Blade (for the cost of one ki point, you get a full CL casting greater invisibility as a supernatural ability) mean things just die.

[Spore]

I have terrible experiences with TWFing. My only flanking partner is a magus (possibly flying or spider climbing around) so greater invisibility and good movement is my best friend. I would invest my feats into boosting Stealth, Perception and prepping for Sneaks.

I had a TWFing rogue and the lack of invisibility took a major bite out of his damage. Then again, if I do a ninja with Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade. I am just not very sure how mobile or immobile opponents are. We are talking about the drow capital of the world with the highest concentration of arcane magic users (and 2nd largest divine casters).

[NightbringerGGZ]

So a level 15 Ninja with a Strength build would have more than enough damage. You'll also have quite a few skill points to spend on infiltration. The only real danger I see is that Greater Invisibility is your primary trick, so you're going to be in trouble if the enemy has ways to detect you. Shoot, even a guard dog could possibly sniff you out.

What about an alchemist build? You can pick up Sneak Attack if you want via Vivisectionist. You also gain quite a few more options through Extracts. Use a combination of Vocal Alteration, Tongues, Alter Self and Disguise Self along with Perform: Act and you can try infiltrating as a shape-shifter. You'll have Invisibility & Greater Invisibility too, along with a number of other useful Extracts. Plus, as an alchemist you can prepare your Extracts specifically for the situation at hand.

Btw, is the ACG play test available to choose from? I'm really interested in seeing how well an Investigator would work as an Assassin, working in Kirin Strike.

[Ravens_cry]

There are tricks for dealing with it. Though it takes more action economy as it's a standard action to throw a bomb, using smoke bombs and a goz masks (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/magic-items/wondrous-items/goz-mask) will have you sneak attacking anyone inside the cloud. True seeing, see invisibility and invisibility purge won't cut through smoke.

[Spore]

Okay, so I have the Drow Ninja 15 now. Everything else will be dealt with potions and WBLmancy since the campaign is a mere distraction until our players return. I need to think about counter measures.

Potions of Negate Aroma vs. guard creatures.

2x Ring of Counterspells: Invisibility Purge and Dispel Magic. (Still leaves me open to See Invis. and True Seeing).

Goz Mask: Part of Inner Sea World Guide so I need DM approvement. We'll see.

Potions of Expeditious Retreat + Boots of Striding: I am even thinking about dipping Barbarian just for a faster get-away. Any ideas for an even better movement rate?

Explosives (Alchemist fire) to create a distraction.

Do you guys think about any other typical situations? Nothing too outlandish as I won't prepare for a Beholder guarding anything (although this wouldn't be absurd).

Yes, I know with 15 levels there are several creatures that counter me.

[icefractal]

As a backup plan against things that can see invisible, consider smoke (Eversmoking Bottle, 5.4K, core), plus some way to see through it. The ways I know of are:
1) Fogcutting Lenses (8K), but original from RotR, and I'm not sure if they're in UE, so you may need to ask the GM.
2) Goz Mask (8K) from the Inner Sea World guide. Same deal.
3) Oracle with the Flame mystery, one level gets you the power to see through smoke.
4) Firesight feat from the ARG, if there's some way to get around the racial requirement.

[avr]

Earth Glide - probably from the Elemental Body I spell - will bypass many sorts of barriers in a drow city. Scrolls or a wand of it may be expensive but would be too good to pass up on IMO.

[Ravens_cry]

As a backup plan against things that can see invisible, consider smoke (Eversmoking Bottle, 5.4K, core), plus some way to see through it. The ways I know of are:

Ooh, good idea. Just might steal that for my next Ninja. It does screw over the rest of the party a little though unless they all have said methods of cutting through the fog.

[Spore]

Earth Glide - probably from the Elemental Body I spell - will bypass many sorts of barriers in a drow city. Scrolls or a wand of it may be expensive but would be too good to pass up on IMO.

As the Ninja I built has Ghoststep as a trick this won't be as much of an issue. But a scroll wouldn't hurt I guess.

By the way instead of poisoning (because poisons are designed poorly) I will not revert to Sap Adept and Sap Master with Unarmed Combat Training and an Agile Wakizashi. I am not sure how well this will fare but dealing 16d6+32 nonlethal damage will be very cool against anything that isn't outright immune to it. For everything else I have a weapon.

e: I dipped two levels of Antipaladin now to bolster my piss-poor saves.

I still have one major concern left:

My AC is 22 and I have an Glamered Greater Shadow Silken Armor equipped as of yet. Dex is 26 from the belt.

I could maybe get rid of one feat for more AC. That's it. Do you think a buckler is worth the penalty in almost all situations?