Help with a Factotum Build

[droppedbutnot]

I've never played a factotum before and we'll be going on a 1-20 campaign soon. The group I'm playing with is pretty optimized. Right now, I believe we've got the meat shield, arcane caster, and divine caster roles filled. I am to be the skill monkey and want to try a factotum build. I've read through a variety of handbooks and builds and am having a hard time piecing it all together. I'd really appreciate some help.

All books 3.X (including some 3.P) and magazines are available sources, subject to DM fiat. (He bans a variety of cheeses, but also allows some.) Apparently, the context of the campaign will vary greatly (terrain, city v. wilderness, hack and slash v. detailed role-playing, traps, puzzles, and creative situations will abound), but we won't be traveling to other planes. We'll get feats every odd level, up to two flaws, max starting wealth, and we get the best two of four d6 plus 6 as starting stats. (I've got, in no special order, 18, 17, 16, 13, 12, 10). The DM will take suggestions about what magic items we want to encounter--but they'll be used on us first, in most cases.

The other day I saw a description on the boards of the factotum I think I want to build--I just don't know how to do it. (I PM'd the poster who said he'd try to get me the build from his buddy, but wasn't sure how long that would take). The build I'd like to make is a factotum with optimization in: iaijutsu focus, sleight of hand (for pickpocketing), intimidate, and trap finding/disabling. I'd like to be strong in all of these areas, but understand that strength in one area will mean less strength in others.

Thanks in advance.

:cool::cool::cool:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Iaijutsu Focus (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8741.0) tends to rely on two things: Gnomish Quickrazors, and the ability to reliably catch your opponent flat footed. The best way to do that is probably the Sapphire Nightmare Blade maneuver, picked up via a one-level Warblade dip (so that you can recover the maneuver easily). Apart from that, there are a few feats and skill tricks, discussed in the linked guide-- a lot of the best ones require you to be small or have a lot of AoOs, though. Nothing comes on line especially fast.

For Intimidate, you'll want the Never Outnumbered skill trick, and the Imperious Command feat. Beyond that, max the skill and pick up the synergies.

[Psyren]

Aside from Iaijutsu, the two main things you'll need for a great FactoTum build are Font of Inspiration, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) and this FAQ ruling (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070412a) that lets them get more than 1d6 sneak attack from Cunning Strike by spending more inspiration. Combine these three and you should be pretty deadly in a fight.

[Chronos]

<nitpick>
The name of the class is "factotum", which means "do everything". A "factorum" would be "do a donut".
</nitpick>

[droppedbutnot]

Not a nitpick at all. I had it in my head one way and did not let the facts shake that from me. Thanks.

And thanks for all the feedback so far.

When is a good idea to take that Warblade dip? Is the dip worth it when there are other ways to make an opponent flat-footed?

:cool::cool::cool:

[Grod_The_Giant]

I recommended the dip because it'll let you reliably catch people flat-footed every other round, all day and all-encounter long-- without depending on size of AoO's like most of the other options. It'll also give you a nice set of other options to play with, since Sapphire Nightmare Blade is only one of the three maneuvers and one stance you can pick up.

As to when... I'd take it whenever you start to feel like your damage is falling off. That said, level 5 would probably be ideal, since you'd be able to pick up some second level maneuvers like Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer, or Wall of Blades.

Warblade/Factotum is just a generally solid combo, due to the int synergy and generally multiclass-friendly nature of initiators. Factotum 8/Warblade 12 rocks all kinds of socks.

[Nihilarian]

Not a nitpick at all. I had it in my head one way and did not let the facts shake that from me. Thanks.

And thanks for all the feedback so far.

When is a good idea to take that Warblade dip? Is the dip worth it when there are other ways to make an opponent flat-footed?

:cool::cool::cool:You can take as much or as little as you want. Personally I like Factotum 8/Warblade 12. You may want to take Able Learner so you can keep putting points into Iaijutsu Focus.

Edit: you may also be interested in skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.

[(Un)Inspired]

I recommend reading Chronos' skill monkey guide. It's not chock full of iaijutsu info but it's the best resource I've ever read for playing a skilled character.

[Zetapup]

When is a good idea to take that Warblade dip? Is the dip worth it when there are other ways to make an opponent flat-footed?

A dip at 9th level is pretty good, since it gives you access to 3rd level manuevers (8 levels non initiator + 1 level initiator gives you an effective initiator level of 5). I agree with the other posters that going straight warblade after that is pretty good. If you really want to go with the 'do anything' flavor, you could take a few levels of chameleon at some point. Factotum/Warblade would be better for combat, Factotum/Chameleon would prolly be better for the jack of all trades thing (Although I suppose you could take a few levels of warblade before going factotum to have something like Factotum 8/Warblade 2/Chameleon 10).

[Piggy Knowles]

Factotum 8/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 10 gets 9th-level maneuvers (with an IL of 19), if that's the direction you want to travel.

As for when to take warblade... well, if you're starting at level 1, and you're relying on iaijutsu focus for damage, you'll want a level in warblade for reliable Sapphire Nightmare Blade as soon as possible. Trust me, you DON'T just want to solely on initiative and grease/marbles for making enemies flat-footed. That said, if retraining is allowed, you can get away with just taking Martial Study (Sapphire Nightmare Blade) for now, and retraining it later when you take an actual warblade level. Once per encounter isn't ideal, but it'll cover you for several levels.

If retraining is allowed, my recommendation would be Factotum 4/Warblade 1/Factotum +4/Warblade +1/Legacy Champion 10.

[Nihilarian]

A dip at 9th level is pretty good, since it gives you access to 3rd level manuevers (8 levels non initiator + 1 level initiator gives you an effective initiator level of 5). I agree with the other posters that going straight warblade after that is pretty good. If you really want to go with the 'do anything' flavor, you could take a few levels of chameleon at some point. Factotum/Warblade would be better for combat, Factotum/Chameleon would prolly be better for the jack of all trades thing (Although I suppose you could take a few levels of warblade before going factotum to have something like Factotum 8/Warblade 2/Chameleon 10).Chameleon is definitely interesting. You can use the floating feat to snag maneuvers with Martial Study and Martial Stance. For your example, you'd have an IL of 11 at 20th level, so up to 6th level maneuvers. This is in addition to 6th level spellcasting from 2 classes.

[(Un)Inspired]

Don't forget that as a chameleon you can gain addition martial maneuvers through the heroics spell.

[Nihilarian]

Don't forget that as a chameleon you can gain addition martial maneuvers through the heroics spell.You can do that with Arcane Dilettante as well.

[droppedbutnot]

How will all this class meshing affect my ability to deal with traps, intimidate, and pick the occasional pocket?

:cool::cool::cool:

[Grod_The_Giant]

How will all this class meshing affect my ability to deal with traps, intimidate, and pick the occasional pocket?
Warblade can progress Intimidate, but not the other two. Chameleon doesn't actually have any of the right skill ranks, but you can pick up a bit of it via the various Focus abilities. If you take the Able Learner feat, you can keep up, though.

[(Un)Inspired]

You can do that with Arcane Dilettante as well.

Yeah but you can only prepare heroics once with arcane dilettante.

[Nihilarian]

How will all this class meshing affect my ability to deal with traps, intimidate, and pick the occasional pocket?

:cool::cool::cool:If you take Able Learner, you'll be able to advance all of them without penalty.
Yeah but you can only prepare heroics once with arcane dilettante.Fair enough, but I'd rather not be locked into the sorcerer/wizard list.

[(Un)Inspired]

A chameleon can prepare spells from any arcane casting class.

[Nihilarian]

A chameleon can prepare spells from any arcane casting class.I thought you had to choose one when you pick Arcan Focus?

[droppedbutnot]

I'm also assuming that you'd want TWF if going the Gnomish Quickrazor route, or is that an unreasonable assumption?

:cool::cool::cool:

[(Un)Inspired]

Arcane Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class.


Chameleon don't have any restrictions saying they can only pull from a single list.

[ShriekingDrake]

You should check out Person_Man's Haberdasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633). This will have a lot of what it sounds to me like you're looking for.

[Bloodgruve]

I've run an Iaijutsu Focus'd Factotum. They're quite fun but can take a lot of table math.

I ran
*Whisper Gnome for automatic Gnomish Quickrazor proficiency and great stats.

*Dark Creature Template for Hide in Plain Sight in dark areas. Creatures are flat footed against hidden targets. You take -20 on hide checks in combat but you can usually overcome spot with the race, template and magic items.

*Swordsage dip for Child of Shadows stance to help with HiPS. Note, talk to your DM about this to see if you can hide with it, I used the stance to always have a shadowy area working with Dark Creature's HiPS ability. Also a dip allows you to get some nice helpful Maneuvers.

*Max ranks in Hide, Move Silent and Iaijutsu Focus.

*Item Familiar for doubling Iaijutsu Focus ranks.

*3x Font of Inspiration, TWF and Item Familiar were important feats.

*Cunning Surge was limited to one activation a turn.

*Marbles and a few skill tricks can be utilized to achieve Flat Footed also.

Great fun, if you n the DM can agree on how you can Hide in combat you can get consistent IF attacks (HiPS in dark areas, Child of Shadows to always be in dark areas). Hiding in combat is the key to constant damage. Also, for time sake I rolled a single IF check at the beginning of combat and a single Hide check per turn. My targets made a spot check vs my roll each round, then spot checks vs my roll -20 for iterative attacks with IF. This helped the game move forward faster instead of rolling IF and Hide/Spot checks for each attack.

If you can't get HiPS to work with your DM you'll have to optimize different ways to trigger IF. Or work towards a charger or tripper build or something.

GL
Blood~

[(Un)Inspired]

It's not quite what you're looking for but factotum can do pretty great damage using power attack and avoiding iaijutsu focus.

I played a Factotum 3/ swordsage 2/ chameleon 10/ Master of the nine 5 and it was pretty seriously awesome.

With a couple of FoI you can have plenty of Inspiration points. You got enough Factotum levels to add your int to all your thieve skills.

I qualified for Mot9 using the chameleons floating feat and heroics. I came out with a pretty beefy number of maneuvers up to 7th level from any school. That plus 6th level spells from any class with two classes worth of spells per day was pretty righteous.

Starting off with a plus 14 str + 6 from ability boon +6 enhancement bonus +20 from fuse arms/Girallon's blessing + 16 from bite of the werebear= 62 str.

Make sure to grab knowledge domain for further combat domination.

Feel free to donate all your bab to power attacking with your favorite two handed weapon and activate avalanche of blade.

All the enemies should fall down.


You'll have great skill ranks to disable traps and intimidate and pick pockets. Your chameleon casting can even help you there with spells like Improvisation that will give you 40 bonus points to apply to skill checks within 2 minutes of casting.

[droppedbutnot]

You should check out Person_Man's Haberdasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633). This will have a lot of what it sounds to me like you're looking for.

This certainly has the flavor of what I'm looking for. Man he did a lot of work. I wonder if a build like this and some of what Bloodgruve suggested might combine well. I guess what I'm asking here is really how I can get it all to work together.

What was the value of item familiar?

I've also noticed that Hide in Plain Sight seems to have LOTS of different interpretations Which would you use?

Thanks, (un)inspired, that's another good build. I have to check out the chameleon.

[(Un)Inspired]

Actually now that I think about it, the build I posted could work with iaijutsu focus and Gnomish Quickrazors as well.

Just drop power attack. Theres no reason all that damage from high strength can't be used on Quickrazors right?

[droppedbutnot]

Actually now that I think about it, the build I posted could work with iaijutsu focus and Gnomish Quickrazors as well.

Just drop power attack. Theres no reason all that damage from high strength can't be used on Quickrazors right?

I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work.

I hadn't thought of improvisation. That's a great boon.

[Bloodgruve]

Starting off with a plus 14 str + 6 from ability boon +6 enhancement bonus +20 from fuse arms/Girallon's blessing + 16 from bite of the werebear= 62 str.


How does the math work for +20 on Girallon's Blessing/ Fuse Arms? Casting it twice?


After playing Iaijutsu Focus I kinda wish I would have found an alternate damage option TBH. The class is awesome but lacks consistent damage. I think you'd get a more rewarding session if you had an alternate way to be effective in combat. But thats just from my experience.

Blood~

[(Un)Inspired]

How does the math work for +20 on Girallon's Blessing/ Fuse Arms? Casting it twice?


After playing Iaijutsu Focus I kinda wish I would have found an alternate damage option TBH. The class is awesome but lacks consistent damage. I think you'd get a more rewarding session if you had an alternate way to be effective in combat. But thats just from my experience.

Blood~

At CL 20, which my build get at level 15, Girallon's blessing gives you give extra pairs of arms.

Fuse arms gives you +4 str for every set of arms you fuse into a base pair.

5 sets at +4 each gives you +20 to str.

[Bloodgruve]

At CL 20, which my build get at level 15, Girallon's blessing gives you give extra pairs of arms.

Fuse arms gives you +4 str for every set of arms you fuse into a base pair.

5 sets at +4 each gives you +20 to str.

Aah, you're using the 3.0 Savage Species version. The 3.5 version only gives 1 pair AFAIK.

Blood~

[(Un)Inspired]

Aah, you're using the 3.0 Savage Species version.

Ahh bloody hell. Was it updated?

[Bloodgruve]

Yea :/ Spell Compendium.

[(Un)Inspired]

Yea :/ Spell Compendium.

How'd did I miss that?

My DM never said anything when I used the SS version.

[Ziegander]

I'm really not here to rain on the Factotum parade again, but I do find it hilarious and pretty sad that no one can offer any workable suggestions for how to play the class beyond, "multiclass," and a handful (or MORE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633)) of obscure bits of rules cobbled and forced together in ways that aren't likely to fly at your average table.

Personally, I consider it a failing of the class and the class' designers when it is basically unplayable without specially building for it. Obviously, you can't design for players deliberately gimping themselves, but if the Factotum is terrible at the table unless you go with:


Iaijutsu Focus (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8741.0) tends to rely on two things: Gnomish Quickrazors, and the ability to reliably catch your opponent flat footed. The best way to do that is probably the Sapphire Nightmare Blade maneuver, picked up via a one-level Warblade dip (so that you can recover the maneuver easily). Apart from that, there are a few feats and skill tricks, discussed in the linked guide-- a lot of the best ones require you to be small or have a lot of AoOs, though. Nothing comes on line especially fast.

For Intimidate, you'll want the Never Outnumbered skill trick, and the Imperious Command feat. Beyond that, max the skill and pick up the synergies.

or this:


I've run an Iaijutsu Focus'd Factotum. They're quite fun but can take a lot of table math.

I ran
*Whisper Gnome for automatic Gnomish Quickrazor proficiency and great stats.

*Dark Creature Template for Hide in Plain Sight in dark areas. Creatures are flat footed against hidden targets. You take -20 on hide checks in combat but you can usually overcome spot with the race, template and magic items.

*Swordsage dip for Child of Shadows stance to help with HiPS. Note, talk to your DM about this to see if you can hide with it, I used the stance to always have a shadowy area working with Dark Creature's HiPS ability. Also a dip allows you to get some nice helpful Maneuvers.

*Max ranks in Hide, Move Silent and Iaijutsu Focus.

*Item Familiar for doubling Iaijutsu Focus ranks.

*3x Font of Inspiration, TWF and Item Familiar were important feats.

*Cunning Surge was limited to one activation a turn.

*Marbles and a few skill tricks can be utilized to achieve Flat Footed also.

Great fun, if you n the DM can agree on how you can Hide in combat you can get consistent IF attacks (HiPS in dark areas, Child of Shadows to always be in dark areas). Hiding in combat is the key to constant damage. Also, for time sake I rolled a single IF check at the beginning of combat and a single Hide check per turn. My targets made a spot check vs my roll each round, then spot checks vs my roll -20 for iterative attacks with IF. This helped the game move forward faster instead of rolling IF and Hide/Spot checks for each attack.

If you can't get HiPS to work with your DM you'll have to optimize different ways to trigger IF. Or work towards a charger or tripper build or something.

GL
Blood~

That doesn't say anything good about the class. But everyone on the internet talks about the Factotum like it's this godsend Tier 3 Rogue class that's so amazing. Okay... it gives the CharOp community fun dials to turn up or down here and there and discover interesting, and, yes, powerful new cool things that characters couldn't do before it came along, but for the non-Optimization community the Factotum is really much more difficult to work with than a Rogue for very little benefit.

I would love to see a Factotum build that uses all Factotum levels, that works from levels 1 to 20, that doesn't rely on playing a specific race, using Iaijutsu focus, using a specific weapon, or abusing rules options that are known to be extremely powerful even without abuse. Because if it's even possible to build a viable Factotum that way, I've never seen anyone talk about it. I've had nothing but bad experiences with Factotums, but I am not an optimizer. I don't like investing that much time into my builds and, as I said, if a class is only good with lots of Op-fu, then I don't think that class really is any good. Can anyone showcase such a build, one that doesn't twist the rules to benefit the Factotum, but plays straight and simple while still being useful, even powerful, and worthwhile at the table?

[Nihilarian]

-snip-
It has up to 7th level spells (admittedly with restrictions), can take an extra standard action each turn (conservatively ruling that Cunning Surge can only be used once/round). At 19th level you get the ability to snag a class feature of any class, which is great. They can make competent trippers due to Brains over Brawn. And then there's skill stuff, such as Diplomacy, Intimidate, Autohypnosis, and Use Magic Device. They can do almost anything that requires a skill roll.

Yes, you need to build it competently. That doesn't mean it isn't strong. Chameleon is better, though (IMO), and I prefer multiclassing with Warblade to going Factotum 20 because I like maneuvers more than polymorphing and/or tripping.

[Ziegander]

And then there's skill stuff, such as Diplomacy, Intimidate, Autohypnosis, and Use Magic Device. They can do almost anything that requires a skill roll.

Yes, and if you're not using known-to-be-broken Diplomancy or extremely powerful Initimidate-to-Cower skill checks, then what is this good for? Niche stealth and UMD?


Yes, you need to build it competently. That doesn't mean it isn't strong.

Well, that's what I'm calling into question. Is a class really strong if building it competently means that you're always playing a Dark Necropolitan Whisper Gnome with TWF Gnome Quickrazors, Iaijutsu Focus, and Imperious Command? And that's all I'm asking for: show me a build that doesn't pull rules shenanigans and is still useful. Please. I'm not trying to say I don't believe it's possible, but I've literally never seen anyone with a Factotum build that's not multiclassed, that's any good at anything that wasn't the silly Whispergnome thing.

[Zetapup]

Like Nihilarian said, I'd prolly go tripper if there were no iaijutsu focus/multiclassing. The problem with that is they start running into feat starvation. Grabbing improved trip plus all the other feats that make tripping good and maintaining a decent amount of IP through FoI is going to be challenging without multiclassing.

If you're not tripping, knowledge devotion gives you some bonuses to attack and damage. Still not that great without power attack and numerous buffs though. If you're allowing the sneak attack damage from cunning strike to stack (I think there was a faq ruling allowing it? Not sure off the top of my head), factotums (factota?) make great ambushers.

In my opinion, factotums are great at being skill monkeys and with all around utility, but eh at combat unless you use iaijutsu focus, multiclass, buff out the wazoo, or some other option that hasn't occured to me.

[Nihilarian]

Yes, and if you're not using known-to-be-broken Diplomancy or extremely powerful Initimidate-to-Cower skill checks, then what is this good for? Niche stealth and UMD?



Well, that's what I'm calling into question. Is a class really strong if building it competently means that you're always playing a Dark Necropolitan Whisper Gnome with TWF Gnome Quickrazors, Iaijutsu Focus, and Imperious Command? And that's all I'm asking for: show me a build that doesn't pull rules shenanigans and is still useful. Please. I'm not trying to say I don't believe it's possible, but I've literally never seen anyone with a Factotum build that's not multiclassed, that's any good at anything that wasn't the silly Whispergnome thing.I'd say the biggest asset is the spellcasting. Due to the limited nature of the casting I'd go for long duration buffs like Greater Mighty Wallop, Overland Flight, Greater Magic Weapon, and Superior Resistance. An interesting idea is to go dragonblooded and grab all the Primal spells from Dragon Magic, or the Heart of x spells from Spell Compendium. Are there any more series of spells that go together like that? Could be useful.

Shorter duration buffs like Greater Mirror Image and Polymorph could also be taken. Only last for one combat, most likely, but potent effects.

For the tripper build, I'd focus on strength and intelligence, grab Improved Trip, Power Attack and Knowledge Devotion. Goliath, Half-Giant, or Human would be the best race. Trip, then full attack with a bludgeoning weapon.

Staggering Blow or Three Mountains could be used, although at this point we're running out of feats. I won't even suggest Lightning Mace. If 3.0 material is available, Knock-Down is great.

[Piggy Knowles]

Factotum is a class that plays well with others. It augments other fighting styles, but doesn't have its "own" fighting style.

Iaijutsu Focus and Imperious Command are both brought up frequently because they're both skill-based ways of disabling or injuring enemies, and nobody does skills like the factotum. I also think that factotum make great archers, and form the base of one of my favorite archer builds (see the Factotum Poison Archer in the build compendium in my sig) - Cunning Surge really does quite well alongside Greater Manyshot.

But again, a factotum doesn't possess an offensive fighting style that you can call its own. You can build it to do just about anything, though - decent BAB and moderate spellcasting, plus fantastic skills and the ability to augment rolls in various ways, really make for an extremely versatile class.

As for why people suggest jumping out after level 8, well, that's the best possible jump point. It doesn't make the class itself weak, it just makes it front-loaded - and it's not the only class with that problem.

[Psyren]

Well, that's what I'm calling into question. Is a class really strong if building it competently means that you're always playing a Dark Necropolitan Whisper Gnome with TWF Gnome Quickrazors, Iaijutsu Focus, and Imperious Command? And that's all I'm asking for: show me a build that doesn't pull rules shenanigans and is still useful. Please. I'm not trying to say I don't believe it's possible, but I've literally never seen anyone with a Factotum build that's not multiclassed, that's any good at anything that wasn't the silly Whispergnome thing.

They get sneak attack as well as the tools (e.g. grease/blink) to reliably enable it in-class. That plus the skills (especially the Knowledge skills, since you get all of them in an Int-based class) puts them at T3 even without Iaijutsu Focus, and the fact that they can do things like shapeshift or fly is just gravy. How many rogues do you know can scout a building in housecat or sparrow form? Or drop the lights so the whole party can sneak past a checkpoint?

Cunning Defense and Brains over Brawn mean they can pump Int higher than rogues can without suffering for it as well.

[Bloodgruve]

Well, that's what I'm calling into question. Is a class really strong if building it competently means that you're always playing a Dark Necropolitan Whisper Gnome with TWF Gnome Quickrazors, Iaijutsu Focus, and Imperious Command? And that's all I'm asking for: show me a build that doesn't pull rules shenanigans and is still useful. Please. I'm not trying to say I don't believe it's possible, but I've literally never seen anyone with a Factotum build that's not multiclassed, that's any good at anything that wasn't the silly Whispergnome thing.

I don't see a lot of difference between Factotum and a lot of other classes. Its all about what level of optimization the player takes and how they play the class. Having played Factotum and many other classes I could see how any can be built very well and also very poorly. I DM for new players and I've seen Fighters out perform Wizards at mid levels due to the player piloting it.

Factotum probably lends itself more strongly to heavy optimization because of the class mechanics. At the end of the day though, given equal Op, I feel a Factotum is easily on par with a Rogue once it gets a couple spell slots. Spells can make up for the SA damage output.

That being said, a Str/Int Factotum could be built for tripping or other combat maneuvers or charging, add in Knowledge Devotion and you'll be doing OK. I would have no problem running Factotum 20 without Iaijutsu Focus, in fact I think it could be more fun. For those who want to be a true skill monkey and don't care about doing a lot of damage Factotum is perfect without any optimization.

I had a blast with the class, I felt quite strong in combat but the best part was the OOC stuff. Just so versatile, like a Swiss army knife. Like I've said, I could drop IF and still love the class.

Blood~

[ShriekingDrake]

This certainly has the flavor of what I'm looking for. Man he did a lot of work. I wonder if a build like this and some of what Bloodgruve suggested might combine well. I guess what I'm asking here is really how I can get it all to work together.

What was the value of item familiar?

I've also noticed that Hide in Plain Sight seems to have LOTS of different interpretations Which would you use?

Thanks, (un)inspired, that's another good build. I have to check out the chameleon.

I have never played or tried to toy with builds for a factotum, so I can't tell you how to turn what you see in the Haberdasher thread into what you're looking for: Person_Man and Darrin are two people whom I expect could really help you spell out what to do and when in order to optimize your four role-playing objectives. I wish I could be more help. You (or perhaps they) can figure out which benefits you want from classes/PRCs, dips, spells, equipment, feats, skill tricks, race, and even from other characters. My recommendation is that you reach out to Darrin and Person_Man, if they don't stick their heads in here on their own. Be sure to give them priorities. For instance, it's worth ranking your preferences. Like you could say: Intimidation > Trap finding and removal > Sleight of Hand = Iaijutsu Focus. (I'm not recommending this as a slate of priorities, just a way to represent it.)

I think there is something appealing about trying to get as many factotum levels as you can, with minor dips, but that may cost you some optimization.

Sorry, wish I could have been more help.

p.s., I'm still waiting on a reply from my buddy who built one of these. So far . . . . radio silence.

[Ziegander]

I'd say the biggest asset is the spellcasting. Due to the limited nature of the casting I'd go for long duration buffs like Greater Mighty Wallop, Overland Flight, Greater Magic Weapon, and Superior Resistance. An interesting idea is to go dragonblooded and grab all the Primal spells from Dragon Magic, or the Heart of x spells from Spell Compendium. Are there any more series of spells that go together like that? Could be useful.

They get so few of them, though. Is there any way to make sure their spells are more reliable than running half a day at best? Also, the spells you suggested are all pretty high level for a Factotum (the lowest being 3rd-level, available at Factotum 8), any advice for spell picks and reliable usage at lower levels (3-7)?


For the tripper build, I'd focus on strength and intelligence, grab Improved Trip, Power Attack and Knowledge Devotion. Goliath, Half-Giant, or Human would be the best race. Trip, then full attack with a bludgeoning weapon.

Staggering Blow or Three Mountains could be used, although at this point we're running out of feats. I won't even suggest Lightning Mace. If 3.0 material is available, Knock-Down is great.

My only concern would be comparing this to a Warblade, for example. But I guess I can't know if it could compete without seeing a build.


Factotum is a class that plays well with others. It augments other fighting styles, but doesn't have its "own" fighting style.

I'm not saying it doesn't augment other fighting styles. It surely does, but I do think the apparent lack of an inherent combat style to take advantage of is a glaring design flaw.


I also think that factotum make great archers, and form the base of one of my favorite archer builds (see the Factotum Poison Archer in the build compendium in my sig) - Cunning Surge really does quite well alongside Greater Manyshot.

To me, I just don't see why Factotum is considered so amazing if in the best builds involving it, the class accounts for less than half the levels (or drastically less than half in some cases).

Something I've always wondered, but again, I've had only bad experiences trying to play Factotums, is what do you do in the levels 1-8? Tons of builds include Factotum 8 to pick up Cunning Surge, because it really is just that good, but in games I played a Factotum I struggled to do much of anything in the early levels of the game. What strategies would you suggest to a low-level Factotum not content with being strictly worse at everything than the rest of his party? Knowledge Devotion seems like a good call, and a tripper might really shine around 6th level, but does a Factotum-ist have to accept that until 3rd level they're just not going to be very good?


You can build it to do just about anything, though - decent BAB and moderate spellcasting, plus fantastic skills and the ability to augment rolls in various ways, really make for an extremely versatile class.

I would change that statement to read, "You can include it in various builds that do just about anything [...]" because that's how I feel it's represented in all the threads I can recall reading.


As for why people suggest jumping out after level 8, well, that's the best possible jump point. It doesn't make the class itself weak, it just makes it front-loaded - and it's not the only class with that problem.

I never said it was the only class with that problem. Certainly Fighters and Monks also suffer from the same problem, but just because those classes are also great for dips here and there and can serve builds well by augmenting a fighting style doesn't mean that people expound all over the internet what awesome Tier 3 classes they are.


They get sneak attack as well as the tools (e.g. grease/blink) to reliably enable it in-class. That plus the skills (especially the Knowledge skills, since you get all of them in an Int-based class) puts them at T3 even without Iaijutsu Focus, and the fact that they can do things like shapeshift or fly is just gravy.

I don't buy that for a minute. They get terrible sneak attack as well as spells to enable it for a scant few rounds per day. Are you telling me that in we gave the Expert sneak attack as Rogue (which is generous for the purposes of this comparison) and sudden sneak attack 1/day at 3rd level and every four levels thereafter it would be Tier 3? Because that's really similar to the argument you're making.


How many rogues do you know can scout a building in housecat or sparrow form? Or drop the lights so the whole party can sneak past a checkpoint?

How many spells per day do you think a Factotum has? I'll tell you how many they get: At level 8, the most popular level, they get exactly three spells per day, only one of which can be up to 3rd level. At 20th level you can cast one 7th level spell per day and up to seven additional spells up to 6th level. It's not a lot. It adds to their versatility, sure, but I don't see it being a reliable part of their arsenal.


That being said, a Str/Int Factotum could be built for tripping or other combat maneuvers or charging, add in Knowledge Devotion and you'll be doing OK. I would have no problem running Factotum 20 without Iaijutsu Focus, in fact I think it could be more fun.

Everything up to this point has been theorycrafting, which is somewhat sad in and of itself. I just want to see a build that works, that doesn't involve rules that a lot of DMs will roll their at eyes and begrudgingly allow, if they allow them at all.

[Psyren]

I don't buy that for a minute. They get terrible sneak attack as well as spells to enable it for a scant few rounds per day. Are you telling me that in we gave the Expert sneak attack as Rogue (which is generous for the purposes of this comparison) and sudden sneak attack 1/day at 3rd level and every four levels thereafter it would be Tier 3? Because that's really similar to the argument you're making.

1) I'm sorry, but this analogy doesn't even come close to working. Do Experts gain Trapfinding? Martial weapon and shield proficiencies? Cunning Knowledge? Cunning Insight? All Knowledge skills + all thief skills + all social skills + all mobility skills + all perception skills + UMD? Int to initiative, AC and strength-based skills? And I haven't even gotten to the magic itself yet. When you're judging a class' tier, you have to look at the entire package, not one ability.

2) Even 1/day is enough to craft an item, should you truly need spell X more often than that; this is one more thing they can do that neither Rogues nor Experts can on their own. And while they get few spells per day, they can simply focus on the "toolbox" ones (like polymorph or silent image) that can reliably see use in a variety of situations.



How many spells per day do you think a Factotum has? I'll tell you how many they get: At level 8, the most popular level, they get exactly three spells per day, only one of which can be up to 3rd level. At 20th level you can cast one 7th level spell per day and up to seven additional spells up to 6th level. It's not a lot. It adds to their versatility, sure, but I don't see it being a reliable part of their arsenal.

How many times a day would you need to turn into a rat or something like that? What you seem to be repeatedly glossing over in your analysis is that their magical abilities are on top of an already highly competent mundane chassis. The magic is there as an edge or emergency button - you're supposed to be focusing on your skills to get you through everyday situations. You are rogue first, mage second - but unlike a rogue you actually have the second.

[Ziegander]

1) I'm sorry, but this analogy doesn't even come close to working. Do Experts gain Trapfinding? Martial weapon and shield proficiencies? Cunning Knowledge? Cunning Insight? All Knowledge skills + all thief skills + all social skills + all mobility skills + all perception skills + UMD? Int to initiative, AC and strength-based skills? And I haven't even gotten to the magic itself yet. When you're judging a class' tier, you have to look at the entire package, not one ability.

You're the one who said that Sneak Attack + Grease + all skills = Tier 3.


2) Even 1/day is enough to craft an item, should you truly need spell X more often than that; this is one more thing they can do that neither Rogues nor Experts can on their own.

So now we're taking Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item too on this feat-starved class?


What you seem to be repeatedly glossing over in your analysis is that their magical abilities are on top of an already highly competent mundane chassis.

No, what I'm missing is how the chassis is highly-competent at anything other than skill use, which I'm sorry, we all know doesn't matter after a few levels. And that's what I'm asking the community to show me. At low-level, when skill use matters, a Factotum can probably out-sneak, and out trap-monkey the Rogue. What else can he do that matters? You're just saying the Factotum is Tier 3, and reminding me that it has spells, very, very few spells per day, something I already know. You're just saying that the class is highly competent and really great. Well, that doesn't measure up to any of my experiences with the class. I'm asking you to show me a build that isn't an Iaijutsu Whispergnome, and all I keep getting is theorycraft and rhetoric that I've read a hundred times.

[Nihilarian]

Assuming you're a human (or used flaws) and took Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at 1st level, you can function decently as a tripper. You get martial weapons so you can wield a guisarme. You can use Cunning Insight to get an attack boost against an evasive enemy.

As far as spells go, it seemed like you wanted a high level factotum so I based the options around that. At 3rd level the spell won't last long, probably just one combat. I'd go for Enlarge Person, to help with tripping and so you can start to deal some real damage, and Fist of Stone level at 4th level for a huge strength bonus.

You're 3rd level feat will be power attack or knowledge devotion at which point you're fine.

[Psyren]

You're the one who said that Sneak Attack + Grease = Tier 3.

No, I really didn't. Also, you haven't refuted any of what I said either.


So now we're taking Scribe Scroll and Craft Magic Arms and Armor too on this feat-starved class?

No - you cooperate with/hire an NPC who has those, and you supply any of the spells you need. Again, the rogue cannot do this at all.


No, what I'm missing is how the chassis is highly-competent at anything other skill use, which I'm sorry, we all know doesn't matter after a few levels.

When do skills stop mattering? Do your rogues magically become ethereal and gain foresight after a certain point?


You're just saying that the class is highly competent and really great. Well, that doesn't measure up to any of my experiences with the class.

Personal skill is a factor of course.

[Ziegander]

Personal skill is a factor, obviously.

Wow. Alright. I think I'm done responding to you.

[Psyren]

Wow. Alright. I think I'm done responding to you.

I do apologize if that came off brusque; however, if what you're saying is true you're literally the only person I've seen have so much trouble getting the class to perform competently. Blaming that on the class itself when so many other people have gotten it to work* does not seem fair.

But, as you wish.

*including without iaijutsu/quickrazors

[Ziegander]

No, I really didn't. Also, you haven't refuted any of what I said either.

And you continue to pontificate to no real effect. That's brusque too, I know, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself and of hearing the same points made over and over (and not just by you). I'm asking for a build. I haven't seen a single one.

I'm not even trying to refute your points. I acknowledge your points are valid, I always have. I'm trying to get you, or anyone else really, to demonstrate how your points result in a playable character from level 1 to level 20 (and mostly at low level). Yes, Factotums have a lot of frills, but I don't know that they amount to much. So I'm asking for someone to show me that they can.

You said:


They get sneak attack as well as the tools (e.g. grease/blink) to reliably enable it in-class. That plus the skills (especially the Knowledge skills, since you get all of them in an Int-based class) puts them at T3 even without Iaijutsu Focus, and the fact that they can do things like shapeshift or fly is just gravy.

Forgive me for my confusion, but what is so different between "Sneak Attack + Grease + all skills = Tier 3," and what you said?


When do skills stop mattering? Do your rogues magically become ethereal and gain foresight after a certain point?

Rogues might not, but your enemies will. Diplomacy maybe is always useful. UMD is always useful. Listen and Spot tend to taper off because magic is better. Disable Device and Open Lock were really never useful to begin with, but magic is better. Climb, Jump, Swim? Magic is better. Balance is useful for 5 ranks, as is Tumble. Bluff can be useful, moreso with Glibness, but you can't cast Glibness. Handle Animal can be brokenly powerful, depending on what the DM makes available in the campaign. Knowledge is only handy because of Knowledge Devotion (though, admittedly a resource Factotums need to take advantage of, but that drains their skill points hard and fast). Hide and Move Silently are useful a bit longer than the rest if you pick up Darkstalker and have some great modifiers. Enemies tend to have more ranks in perceptions skills than you do stealth (though they don't typically have great modifiers). Appraise, Heal, Perform, Profession, Use Rope; these skills do nothing of value. Most of the other skills are so niche in their usefulness that they often don't get taken at all. A better question would be how many skills remain useful through 20 levels of adventuring? You're going to accumulate magical gear that obsoletes a lot of skills, and you've got some limited spellcasting to obsolete even more of them.


I do apologize if that came off brusque; however, if what you're saying is true you're literally the only person I've seen have so much trouble getting the class to perform competently.

I could easily play an Iaijutsu Focus Dark Whispergnome Factotum with Darkstalker and Gnome Quickrazors, but I choose not to, because the concept bores me to tears.

I could play a Factotum 8/Warblade 12, and I am sure I would have a lot of fun with it past 8th level. Getting to level 9 is what worries me.


Blaming that on the class itself when so many other people have gotten it to work* does not seem fair.

The class is pretty poorly designed. We may not agree on that, but a new player can't just pick it up and play it, so I take that to mean it could use refinement on the mechanical end. But I am placing an equal amount of blame on my own ignorance of optimization. The class seems to require more optimization than I enjoy employing to make viable.

[Piggy Knowles]

Gah. I was typing up a detailed level-by-level analysis of a human Factotum 20, with Darkstalker, Knowledge Devotion and Font of Inspiration as his sole feats. He specialized in stealth and the crafting of alchemical items and poisons, and mostly fought at range with a longbow and poisoned arrows. I got up to seventh level with detailed descriptions of how each level goes, and my dog flopped her big heavy dog head on my keyboard and refreshed the page, losing the post.

But I guess that was overkill anyhow. Here's a basic summary: At low levels, play as a rogue would, primarily - you've got spike damage from Cunning Strike, you can craft with the best of them on your downtime (at level 6, I was looking at a +27 to poison or alchemical crafting with the not-very-optimized benchmark build I was putting together - enjoy crafting Darklight Brew with its DC 23 save and 2d6 Con damage on a natural 1), and you have spells to augment both abilities. As levels go up, so do your options. It's not really that complicated. Basically, you can do anything the rogue can, but you can augment those roguish abilities with spells and inspiration. You don't need a ton of spells - just enough to keep yourself going. Your skills are better than a rogue's, you have overall better bonuses to said skills, and you have a huge pool of inspiration just ready to give you, say, +20 on a check, or +Int to one of your saves, or whatever you need.

Again, this was a super minimal, not super optimized build - about as barebones as it gets. But with 25 inspiration points to use each encounter, you could do almost anything with it. Play a ranged build. Play a stealth build. Change it up and go melee for a while - you're a single spell away from being a better fighter than most fighters. Pile it all on as +25d6 sneak attack one encounter, and the next encounter, polymorph into a hydra and spam Cunning Surge for seventy-two attacks in a single round. (And don't forget about Knowledge Devotion!) Or decide you want to just talk your way out of an encounter instead - with voice of the dragon and Cunning Knowledge, you can get a +30 bonus to Diplomacy without spending a single rank or even a positive Charisma bonus. Again, your chassis and Brains Over Brawn/Cunning Knowledge alone let you out-rogue the rogue, while the rest of your class features let you do... well... whatever you want, I guess.

[droppedbutnot]

So much to say . . .

Thanks for all the effort so far.

I realize that there are a lot of ways to skin this cat. And it is my hope with this thread not to decide whether the Factotum is a good class or not. It's an interesting class and because it's interesting, I want to play it. It's true that I will be the weakest member of my party. I'm OK with that, but, I'd like not to be useless. I've scoured the few handbooks out there and I haven't really found what I was looking for. That Haberdasher is the closest thing to what I've imagined and--largely because there are so many options and because I am not the best optimizer--I'm really looking for help. I figured that one way to take this tier 3 class with a weaker player would be to pick several things to focus on that the other three classes aren't doing.

For me, when I had seen reference to a build that focused on Iaijutsu focus (for an interesting approach to battle), intimidation (a way to affect the BBEG or even an area of the battlefield), sleight of hand (a way to supplement income or even to add to battle situations), and trap work (a consistent aid that none of the other party members will be especially good at). This seemed like a character that would fill in some niches. I could also do some moderate healing, spell work, a variety of skill work, etc. I'm not trying to be the best at combat -- the meat shield can do that. I won't be the best healer or divine caster -- that's what the cleric (or whatever it is) will do. I certainly won't be the best arcane caster -- that's what the arcane caster will do. I want to be the moarter to complement the bricks. (Bard was an option, but this is new, but with newness, comes my stupidity.)

When Ziegander said: "Everything up to this point has been theorycrafting, which is somewhat sad in and of itself. I just want to see a build that works" that resonated with me a little. I'm hoping for some pragmatic help in how to make a factotum, perhaps with some dips, work to achieve the roles I've outlined. Now, that may not be possible -- and beggars can't be choosers. But I'm so thankful for the help so far. Now I think I want to find a way to make that Haberdasher work to achieve my objectives. In some sense when Shriekingdrake said: "figure out which benefits you want from classes/PRCs, dips, spells, equipment, feats, skill tricks, race, and even from other characters", I realized that what I need. At present, I'm overwhelmed by all the choices. I really appreciate what Piggy was trying to do when the dog struck, that's what I'm looking for.

Anyway, thanks for all the help so far. Perhaps as a team we can build something that won't completely embarrass me and that we can all be proud of. I'm going to digest some of what is here and try to get something written down.

:cool::cool::cool:

[Bloodgruve]

"I just want to see a build that works, that doesn't involve rules that a lot of DMs will roll their at eyes and begrudgingly allow, if they allow them at all."

If a DM rolls their eyes at hiding in combat how do they deal with T1's?

So what is allowed in this build, or what isn't allowed in this build? All 3.X, some Pathfinder?

Do you want 20 lvls of Factotum or are dips acceptable?



Lets throw it down and make it work. I'll take the physical challenge.

Blood~

[Rubik]

I've always liked a single level dip in the changeling rogue ACF. 10+Int base skill points (x4 for 1st level) plus Skill Mastery (ie, always take 10) in all the social skills? Heck yeah. Plus you get sneak attack whenever you use Iaijutsu Focus, and it qualifies you for the Craven feat (+character level to all sneak attacks). Alternatively, you can swap out sneak attack for fighter feats via the martial rogue ACF. And changeling (being a human hybrid) qualifies you for the racial aspect of chameleon.

[Anlashok]

I do apologize if that came off brusque; however, if what you're saying is true you're literally the only person I've seen have so much trouble getting the class to perform competently. Blaming that on the class itself when so many other people have gotten it to work* does not seem fair.

But, as you wish.


It's easy to have trouble seeing how a class works when you're so desperately eager to hate them. Not even offering points. Just going "NO THATS BAD" over and over and over.

[Ziegander]

If a DM rolls their eyes at hiding in combat how do they deal with T1's?

I never said or implied that DMs would roll their eyes at hiding in combat. I should have been more clear. Most DMs for games I've played in would roll their eyes at a +24 bonus to Hide checks at 1st level (4 ranks, +4 racial, +4 size, +4 ability modifier, and +8 template). All of the DMs for games I've played in in real life would roll their eyes if I requested the Iaijutsu Focus skill, and many online DMs would roll their eyes if I then combined it with Quick Draw and TWF Quickrazors. My in real life DMs have all banned Imperious Command, and would otherwise roll their eyes, and/or try to kill my character, if I started running around Diplomancing people.


So what is allowed in this build, or what isn't allowed in this build? All 3.X, some Pathfinder?

Do you want 20 lvls of Factotum or are dips acceptable?

Lets throw it down and make it work. I'll take the physical challenge.

Blood~

Let's call it all sources 3.5 allowed, no PF. No 3.0 material allowed, no Whispergnomes, no Imperious Command, no Diplomacy abuse, and no Polymorph abuse. Oh, and no Item Familiar, either. For dips let's say no more than 6 levels in non-Factotum classes.

Flaws allowed, up to two. 32pt buy.

Preferably using a race from the PHB for more availability over a greater variety of games, but not strictly required. Though, only skills from the PHB are allowed (new uses of those skills from other books as well as Skill Tricks are all fair game).

For completeness, let's also go ahead and disallow campaign specific material. That stuff tends to divide DMs, and I find it perfectly acceptable if a DM doesn't want to deal with campaign specific material either for a game outside that campaign or when that DM doesn't have the book(s) in question. Screw it, we'll allow campaign specific stuff, you just get bonus points for not using it.

I'm really looking for something that doesn't require a lot of optimization to work, and more bonus points if it works well from 1st level.

Does this sound like a lot of restrictions? It very well might, but every single one of the other Tier 3 classes can be effective from 1st to 20th level and at a Tier 3 level operating with the same restrictions. If Factotum is as good or better than them at the Tier 3 game, we should be able to come up with more than a few builds that operate just fine with these restrictions.


It's easy to have trouble seeing how a class works when you're so desperately eager to hate them. Not even offering points. Just going "NO THATS BAD" over and over and over.

When did I ever say, "No, that's bad," about anything other than the design of the Factotum class? I've acknowledged some of the class' strengths, and also fully acknowledge the power of some of the high-optimization builds out there. Trust me, I am tired of repeating myself, but all I'm doing is asking for a Factotum build that doesn't rely on abusive tricks and/or high to very-high levels of optimization. I've never, ever seen such a build anywhere on the internet, yet everyone says Factotum is a totally awesome class. I am unconvinced, and will remain so until I can see a build or two or three that actually operates at a Tier 3 level that doesn't require high-optimization.

What points would you like me to offer? I made a simple request. Give me a build that's lower optimization than the ones I've seen already. It's been almost two pages now and still no build. I'm not trying to prove anything. I don't need to offer points. Everyone seems to give the Factotum an amazing ranking, and I don't think it deserves it. The burden of proof is not on me to show that the class is ****ty. That's not even something I'm trying to prove. The burden of proof is on the community to show that the class deserves all the praise they give it all the time. I am aware that Factotums can be useful for all sorts of different things, but not all Factotums can do everything all the time. That's why we need to see builds, because without them all we've got is theorycraft and the community's word that Factotums are super-great.

@PiggyKnowles: A poison build, eh? Wouldn't that be prohibitively expensive at low-level though? It's definitely an interesting idea though, and one that has potential. I've never thought of a poison build.

[squiggit]

Trust me, I am tired of repeating myself, but all I'm doing is asking for a Factotum build that doesn't rely on abusive tricks and/or high to very-high levels of optimization
Take font a couple times, use shapechanging or IF or Knowledge Devotion/CI to outfight a fighter, while using your skillpoints to be a rogue and an encyclopedia smashed togheter.

I'm honestly not seeing what the confusion is. You're a better rogue who gets spellcasting, cunning surge and you can steal class features wholesale if you wait out the full length of the class.

It's certainly not the most amazing class, but it's definitely versatile and trumps its progenitors at their own gimmicks.

Honestly I think the more open factotum builds are the more interesting ones... JaronK's explanation sort of sums up my thoughts on the class.

[Nihilarian]

I think the poison build uses Minor Creation to get the poison.

[Ziegander]

I think the poison build uses Minor Creation to get the poison.

So it doesn't come online until 10th level, then right?

EDIT: Well, no, that doesn't seem to make sense. He said he had it up through 7th level, so I assume he means that he was using poisons before 7th level.

[Nihilarian]

So it doesn't come online until 10th level, then right?

EDIT: Well, no, that doesn't seem to make sense. He said he had it up through 7th level, so I assume he means that he was using poisons before 7th level.It is entirely possible that I was wrong.

Once you do get to 10th level you should definitely use it, though.

[Ziegander]

It is entirely possible that I was wrong.

Once you do get to 10th level you should definitely use it, though.

I would just as soon avoid it. Conjuring up a bucket full of the most lethal contact poison you can imagine and then dumping it on an enemy is pretty abusive. It's basically an instant kill button if you can set it up.

It just seems to be one of the more common themes: "Well, Factotums only get a few spells per day, so we'd better make damn sure they're the most easily abused/broken few spells per day we have access to." I'd rather avoid that if possible.

[Nihilarian]

I would just as soon avoid it. Conjuring up a bucket full of the most lethal contact poison you can imagine and then dumping it on an enemy is pretty abusive. It's basically an instant kill button if you can set it up.

It just seems to be one of the more common themes: "Well, Factotums only get a few spells per day, so we'd better make damn sure they're the most easily abused/broken few spells per day we have access to." I'd rather avoid that if possible.Frankly it seems like you define everything as abusive. Are you allergic to optimization in general, or just with the Factotum? :smalltongue:

More to the point, he said he was going to use poisoned arrows, not dump a bucket of poison literally down their throats.

[squiggit]

Yeah, asking for a good factotum build and then complaining that the options selected are good and strong seems at least a little contradictory.

[Ziegander]

Frankly it seems like you define everything as abusive. Are you allergic to optimization in general, or just with the Factotum? :smalltongue:

More to the point, he said he was going to use poisoned arrows, not dump a bucket of poison literally down their throats.


Yeah, asking for a good factotum build and then complaining that the options selected are good and strong seems at least a little contradictory.

Sorry, the only other times I've seen Minor Creation referenced on the internet with the intention of making poison it's always been in the context of using it to create some massive amount of Black Lotus Extract, in this case 10 cubic feet of it, and then using it as an alpha strike to kill anything not immune to poison in a single action.

It's been one of those things people have brought up about why Factotums are so good, and it's definitely an abuse of the spell. For the purposes of this discussion, I figure it's best to be wary of stuff like that.

[Nihilarian]

At this point I'm just worried I'll sit down and flesh out my tripper factotum only to find out one of my choices is unbearably cheesy by your standards. Everyone has different tolerance.

[Ziegander]

At this point I'm just worried I'll sit down and flesh out my tripper factotum only to find out one of my choices is unbearably cheesy by your standards. Everyone has different tolerance.

I highly doubt I would find anything to do with tripping cheesy, but I don't know what exactly you're planning. I'm an incredibly permissive DM, and I tend to actively rule in my players' favor when they're not playing Tier 1 or 2 classes. My problem with Factotum builds is that they tend to rely on tricks and rules abuses that other DMs I've played under would either ban outright or only begrudgingly allow.

Also, I never said you couldn't use Minor Creation to make poisons. I just said that personally, I would avoid it. Sorry if that was unclear.

Anyway, you've got my list of limitations. Other Tier 3 classes function just fine with those limitations. Can a Factotum?

[Piggy Knowles]

Poison harvesting below level 10 is a hit and miss endeavor - the only way to make it not cost-prohibitive is to harvest the materials yourself, as even purchasing the raw materials and crafting the poison itself is still expensive.

But harvesting poison is relatively easy if you've got good skills. Drow of the Underdark says it's a DC 15 Handle Animal check to get an animal or vermin to deposit its venom in a container. That venom still needs to be distilled, but the build can succeed on the Craft check to distill without fail even at low levels. You also have the requisite knowledge skills to know which animals are poisonous and which aren't.

Beyond that... detect poison is a 0-level spell; you get it at second level. Survival to gather materials is fairly easy and NOT a trained-only skill, so even without ranks you can fake it with a synergy bonus from knowledge (nature) and Cunning Knowledge. And heck, you can even summon your own vermin and animals to harvest venom from. Summon monster I gets you small monstrous scorpions for a DC 12 poison; not fantastic, but it's more or less free. (You do run into the grey zone of whether or not venom harvested from a summoned creature stays along after the summoned creature goes away. To that, I ask a follow-up question - if you are bitten by a summoned monstrous spider and subject to its poison, and then the spider is dismissed, does the poison go away? Do you no longer have to make a secondary save?)

Still, until you have a reliable way to harvest them, poisons are less handy to you then alchemy at the low levels. Instead, treat it as opportunistic windfalls - check around for poisons, and take a moment to harvest it from any venomous enemies you come up against, but until you can come up with a decent source on your own, focus instead on debuffing via tanglefoot bags and the like.

I was also trying to intentionally put the build together in a way that used as few outside sources as possible to show that the factotum CAN work without outside help; in my own factotum poison archer I take Hidden Talent at first level for psionic minor creation, so that I have access to large amounts of poison at first level. You could easily bump back Darkstalker to third level and take it at first in that same build, dropping off one of the Fonts of Inspiration. Or, if flaws are allowed, just take it anyhow.

I'll put together a more detailed build following your posted restrictions (32-PB, two flaws, no more than six non-factotum levels) some time later.

[Nihilarian]

How do you feel about Dragon Compendium?

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, here we go. This is what I put together on my lunch break, following your restrictions. I tried to keep things as simple as possible, and focus on things that showcased the factotum's natural set of abilities.

I also have a version of my ethereal poison archer that works under your restrictions, which I'll post a bit later.

TRAPPED!
Human, Factotum 14/Trapsmith 3/Heir of Syberis 3

1. Factotum1- Darkstalker, Knowledge Devotion, Font of Inspiration (F), Font of Inspiration (F)
2. Factotum2-
3. Factotum3- Improved Diversion
4. Factotum4-
5. Factotum5-
6. Trapsmith1- Obtain Familiar
7. Trapsmith2-
8. Trapsmith3-
9. Factotum6- Font of Inspiration
10. Factotum7-
11. Factotum8-
12. Factotum9- Heroic Spirit
13. Heir of Siberys1- Action Boost
14. Heir of Siberys2-
15. Heir of Siberys3- Font of Inspiration
16. Factotum10-
17. Factotum11-
18. Factotum12- Font of Inspiration
19. Factotum13-
20. Factotum14-

Starting stats: 18 in Int, rest distributed as you’d like. Str 8/Dex 14/Con 12/Int 18/Wis 10/Cha 12 works fine. Boost Int at all possible levels.

Trapsmith spells known:
1- Arcane sight, haste, clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic
2- Otiluke’s resilient sphere, dimension door, stone shape
3- Fabricate, wall of stone

Siberys mark: Mark of sentinel

Skills of note: Standard trapmonkey skills, plus a few others. Craft (trapmaking), craft (alchemy). Possibly craft (poisonmaking) as well, although you can just use craft (alchemy) with a -4 penalty instead if you want to save the ranks, at the cost of delaying access to some of the more powerful poisons. If SRD skills are allowed rather than just PHB, getting autohypnosis as a trained skill means that, if you accidentally poison yourself when applying poison to your arrows, you can use Cunning Knowledge to auto-succeed on the save (depending on level). If not, Heal is an alternative, having your familiar use the skill on you. Hide, Move Silently and Bluff are essential for your stealthing. UMD is always handy. Make sure to hit the prerequisites for any skill tricks, and you’re golden.

LEVEL SNAPSHOTS:
Levels 1-5: Play as a ranged sniper and trapmonkey. By level 5 you’ll have seven inspiration points, which you can use to make sure you are thoroughly undetectable via Cunning Knowledge on your hide checks, or to boost a bluff check when creating a diversion, or feed it all into spike damage once per encounter. Improved Diversion can act as a mini-HiPS for you, one that doesn’t require darkness or anything of that sort - see the build tricks section for more details. Create alchemical items to disable and harry enemies, and have fun being pretty much undetectable at these levels. Spells augment your abilities - grease, alter self, magecraft and the like are huge.

Levels 6-10: Your first three levels of Trapsmith give you some nice spellcasting to augment your abilities - things like arcane sight mean you will more or less never be surprised again, and you can scout using clairaudience/clairvoyance. This lets you use the more versatile arcane dilettante spells as you’d need them, since you don’t need to spend them on utility. Plenty of tricks to be had with traps, especially since you can use Cunning Knowledge to get a ridiculous bonus to your craft check for particularly tough enemies.

Levels 11-15: Two big things happen here - Cunning Surge and mind blank twice per day. The former lets you do things like set traps and still act, while the latter makes your stealth nearly unbeatable; it protects you from divinations that would otherwise be a hard counter to anyone even considering stealth. Note that you get access to this even earlier than a wizard would. You also get access to fabricate, and with your craft skills, you can make huge batches of poisons, traps or alchemical items at once. That’s awfully handy…

Oh yeah, you get access to minor creation and polymorph via arcane dilettante, two of the most powerful spells in the game.

Levels 16-20: More inspiration, higher level spells, make the good even better. You can pull off a ton of tricks; see below for details.

BUILD TRICKS:
Trapsmith Traps
Factotums easily make the best trapsmiths. Why? Two reasons:

One, the trapsmith’s trap mechanics are all based off of your craft check, and factotums can boost that in a way that almost no other class can. Ever wanted to trip a tarrasque? Even a dedicated tripping build wouldn’t dream of trying that. You, however, can: if you pop Cunning Knowledge, your trip rope trap will have a +55 bonus, assuming masterwork tools and magecraft (but no other skill-boosting items or spells). That means that even if you roll a 1, and the tarrasque rolls a 20, it will STILL be tripped. You can also use this to drop alchemical items, fire bolts with thoroughly ridiculous attack rolls, and more.

Two, unlike most builds, you don’t suffer by spending your action trapping, because you have Cunning Surge to make up for it. (This build also has Action Boost to supplement things if it turns out that action points are allowed - I’m assuming they aren’t, but if they are, go to town.)

Nearly Unbeatable Stealth
Sky-high hide and move silently, thanks to Brains Over Brawn, plus the usual Cunning Knowledge tricks when necessary. Darkstalker and mind blank prevent alternate senses or spells from detecting you. Finally, Improved Diversion is the poor man’s HiPS - and something you can do better than most, thanks to your skill focus and the like.

How? Well, look at the elements of hiding. You must have cover or concealment, and you must not be observed. Hiding is not an action in and of itself, but rather something combined with movement. Cover or concealment is easy - pop a smokestick, or use the Shrouded Dance skill trick, or use your environment. I personally like Shrouded Dance. So, using Shrouded Dance, make a DC 20 Hide check as a standard action to gain concealment (child’s play). Then, as a move action, make a diversion via Improved Diversion. This allows you to hide even though you’re being observed. Finally, take a five-foot step into hiding. Congratulations - you’ve just disappeared completely in a brightly lit room with no cover while surrounded by enemies. Then, for bonus fun, use Cunning Surge to get an extra standard action to cast a spell or slit a throat or do other nasty things while hidden.

Cunning Surge shenanigans
Cunning Surge is almost certainly the best ability a factotum gets, but there are a few neat things that you can do with it that haven’t been referenced. For one, get some off-turn fun by using it to ready an action. Readying is a standard action, so Cunning Surge allows you to get your normal set of actions, then spend three inspiration points to ready an action. (Note that this build ends up with 22 inspiration points, meaning you can use Cunning Surge seven times an encounter, and still have a point left over for Cunning Knowledge to boost your trapping or for arcane dilettante.) Even better, because a factotum counts as a caster, you can obtain a familiar. This gives you a ton of freedom when readying actions! Instead of readying based on an opponent’s action, which means you’ve wasted your ready if the opponent does something else, ready an action to take place if your raven familiar speaks a certain trigger word. Since speaking is a free action that can take place on someone else’s turn, your familiar can trigger your readied action for you, letting you take your special action even when it’s someone else’s turn.

Familiar fun
Your familiar uses your skill ranks, meaning it will be a pretty ridiculous skill monkey all on its own. It can also aid you on all of your checks, making it worth a free +2 on any skill you have. It can scout for you, or rob an enemy blind while you’re busy sneaking around setting traps. Furthermore, you can use it to trigger readied actions for off-turn actions (see Cunning Surge shenanigans, above).

General versatility
In addition to all of those standard tricks, this build can completely change up its tactics when necessary. Want to forgo the hiding to eat someone’s face? With 22 inspiration points, you can spend a point on arcane dilettante to polymorph yourself into a twelve-headed hydra, then spend the rest on Cunning Surge for seven additional standard actions, for a whopping 84 bite attacks. Want to avoid an encounter entirely? You’ll have an absolutely ridiculous bluff check, and you can combine that with voice of the dragon to make it even better. Add in Cunning Knowledge, and you can bluff or diplomance your way out of anything. Hells, your familiar will be charismatic enough to charm his way into a king’s coffers, if you share the spell. The sky’s the limit - with a bit of inspiration and a single well chosen spell, you can completely change your tactics altogether. The rogue could duplicate some (but not all) of the above tricks, but unlike the rogue, you have a whole suite of abilities you can fall back on when your main tricks DON’T work - and that’s the biggest reason you’re a full tier above most other skill monkeys.

EDIT: Missed the bit about no Polymorph. It's not at all essential to the build; it was just there as an example of how, with one spell, you can completely change tactics. Use trollshape instead, if you want, or solid fog, or any of the other myriad spells in the 4-5 range that can dramatically shape an encounter. Polymorph is by no means alone in that regard.

[droppedbutnot]

This is a great build. And I don't mean to diminish this effort.

That said, I'm not looking for Ziegander's restrictions. "Let's call it all sources 3.5 allowed, no PF. No 3.0 material allowed, no Whispergnomes, no Imperious Command, no Diplomacy abuse, and no Polymorph abuse. Oh, and no Item Familiar, either. For dips let's say no more than 6 levels in non-Factotum classes.

Flaws allowed, up to two. 32pt buy.

Preferably using a race from the PHB for more availability over a greater variety of games, but not strictly required. Though, only skills from the PHB are allowed (new uses of those skills from other books as well as Skill Tricks are all fair game)."

:cool::cool::cool:
Any chance, Piggy, you can help me think through how to build my Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidation, pick pocketing, trap addressing Factotum?

[(Un)Inspired]

This is a great build. And I don't mean to diminish this effort.

That said, I'm not looking for Zeigander's restrictions. "Let's call it all sources 3.5 allowed, no PF. No 3.0 material allowed, no Whispergnomes, no Imperious Command, no Diplomacy abuse, and no Polymorph abuse. Oh, and no Item Familiar, either. For dips let's say no more than 6 levels in non-Factotum classes.

Flaws allowed, up to two. 32pt buy.

Preferably using a race from the PHB for more availability over a greater variety of games, but not strictly required. Though, only skills from the PHB are allowed (new uses of those skills from other books as well as Skill Tricks are all fair game)."

Any chance, Piggy, you can help me think through how to build my Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidation, pick pocketing, trap addressing Factotum?

Could you define polymorph abuse?

[Piggy Knowles]

Any chance, Piggy, you can help me think through how to build my Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidation, pick pocketing, trap addressing Factotum?

Sure, although I'm on my phone now and probably won't be on an actual computer again until this afternoon, as I work in the field. Many of the suggestions I'll make have been brought up already, but I can help you hammer together an actual build.

[droppedbutnot]

Sure, although I'm on my phone now and probably won't be on an actual computer again until this afternoon, as I work in the field. Many of the suggestions I'll make have been brought up already, but I can help you hammer together an actual build.

Thanks, man.

:cool::cool::cool:

[droppedbutnot]

Could you define polymorph abuse?

It wasn't my definition. The quoted language came from Ziegander. These are his preferences. My limits are in the OP. I think it's just fine for Ziegander to proffer these limits, they just don't happen to be mine.

:cool::cool::cool:

EDIT: Crap, sorry about the double post. In my haste to respond, I neglected to go back to the prior post. Bad form, dropped :smallfrown:

[Nihilarian]

I went and started a list of long term Factotum spells. Most of them are buff spells that last an hour or longer. You get one spell of up to 7th level and up to 7 spells of up to 6th level. It's a WIP but it may give you ideas.1st level
Hoard Gullet

2nd level
Chain of Eyes
Create Magic Tattoo
Darkvision
Fortify Metal or Stone
Heart of Air
Quick Potion
Primal Hunter

3rd level
Crown of Might
Crown of Protection
Deeper Darkvision
Disobedience
Enhance Familiar
Golden Dragonmail
Heart of Water
Magic Weapon, Greater
Mighty Wallop, Greater
Primal Instinct
Regal Procession
Servant Horde

4th level
Darkvision, Mass
Ethereal Mount
Fortify Familiar
Heart of Earth
Minor Creation
Perfect Summons
Primal Senses

5th level
Dragonsight
Enlarge Person, Greater
Flight of the Dragon
Heart of Fire
Overland Flight
Prying Eyes
Transformation of the Deeps

6th level
Anticipate Teleportation, Greater
Cloak of the Sea
Primal Speed
Resistance, Superior

7th level
Elemental Body
Energy Immunity
Scrying, GreaterIf I made any mistakes or you have any suggestions I'd appreciateappreciate the help. I might do another list for "One Combat Buffs", buff spells with a duration measured in minutes (or rounds at later levels).

[Ziegander]

How do you feel about Dragon Compendium?

Dragon Compendium is fine.


OK, here we go. This is what I put together on my lunch break, following your restrictions. I tried to keep things as simple as possible, and focus on things that showcased the factotum's natural set of abilities.

I appreciate it.


Skills of note: Standard trapmonkey skills, plus a few others. Craft (trapmaking), craft (alchemy). Possibly craft (poisonmaking) as well, although you can just use craft (alchemy) with a -4 penalty instead if you want to save the ranks, at the cost of delaying access to some of the more powerful poisons. Getting autohypnosis as a trained skill means that, if you accidentally poison yourself when applying poison to your arrows, you can use Cunning Knowledge to auto-succeed on the save (depending on level). Hide, Move Silently and Bluff are essential for your stealthing. UMD is always handy. Make sure to hit the prerequisites for any skill tricks, and you’re golden.

Creative use of Autohypnosis, I like it. Technically it's against the restrictions, sorry they've been evolving, but it's a good addition to your build.


LEVEL SNAPSHOTS:
Levels 1-5: Play as a ranged sniper and trapmonkey. By level 5 you’ll have seven inspiration points, which you can use to make sure you are thoroughly undetectable via Cunning Knowledge on your hide checks, or to boost a bluff check when creating a diversion, or feed it all into spike damage once per encounter. Improved Diversion can act as a mini-HiPS for you, one that doesn’t require darkness or anything of that sort - see the build tricks section for more details. Create alchemical items to disable and harry enemies, and have fun being pretty much undetectable at these levels. Spells augment your abilities - grease, alter self, magecraft and the like are huge.

Low levels still seem shaky to me, but I think that's the class not your build. You'll be pretty great at hiding and throwing tanglefoot bags. Doesn't scream effective to me.

Fortunately, from levels 6 on the build definitely seems to hold its own quite well. But beyond the spells, I'm not sure I see the utility of the Trapsmith's Booby Traps. Trip Trap can be quite useful against the right enemies, but the others appear to be quite weak to me unless I'm missing something. Would it have been better to take just 1 level of Trapsmith and then advance its casting with some other PrC?

Anyway, it's a good build and it does a good job illustrating why Factotums are Tier 3 without relying on the same tricks we see plastered all over the internet, so I thank you for taking the time to work this out for me (and for droppedbutnot and anyone else interested).

What is a little hazy for me is what the encounter-to-encounter combat role of this guy is, but that is probably just because it has so many options. I'd like to playtest something like this to see if it works out at the table to be as useful as it looks. My experience with the Factotum has always been that it can do a lot of things, but no one character can do it all, and even the things that one character can do never seemed to add up to a useful combat strategy. This looks like it has enough potent options to hold its own well enough.

Also, guys, I'm sorry if I seem like I'm allergic to optimization. That's not the case. I just play with a lot of DMs that are allergic to optimization. As I said, when I DM I'm very permissive. But I just instinctively try to avoid stuff my DMs would find cheesy. That seems to have frustrated a lot of you, but I think it's particularly useful for a discussion like this because plenty of other players will have similarly restrictive DMs with similarly low tolerance levels for cheese. I just wanted the community to work toward providing Factotum build advice for players in those situations.

[Ziegander]

Could you define polymorph abuse?

Polymorph is an extremely open-ended and therefore easily abused spell. I've never banned the spell, but it's definitely one of those spells that either gets banned or heavily houseruled all the time. You can use it to transform into a huge variety of forms making it more versatile and powerful than any, or almost any, other 4th level spell (and many 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells besides). I would define Polymorph abuse as taking advantage of the spell's open-ended nature to take only the most powerful forms possible and make encounters as trivial as you can.

I'm not saying "NO Polymorph," though maybe I should, I'm just saying don't overdo it. If you want to use it, you have plenty of options that are powerful but not overwhelmingly so. Sandbag it a little.

[(Un)Inspired]

Polymorph is an extremely open-ended and therefore easily abused spell. I've never banned the spell, but it's definitely one of those spells that either gets banned or heavily houseruled all the time. You can use it to transform into a huge variety of forms making it more versatile and powerful than any, or almost any, other 4th level spell (and many 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells besides). I would define Polymorph abuse as taking advantage of the spell's open-ended nature to take only the most powerful forms possible and make encounters as trivial as you can.

I'm not saying "NO Polymorph," though maybe I should, I'm just saying don't overdo it. If you want to use it, you have plenty of options that are powerful but not overwhelmingly so. Sandbag it a little.

What I mean to say is, where do you draw the line between clever use and abuse.
For instance, turning into a hydra. It's a butt-ton of extra attacks, but it's just attacks. Is that considered abuse or fair use.

I'm well aware that it's a questionable spell line, especially when used in certain ways. I just wanted to know where the line in the sand was being drawn this time.

[Ziegander]

What I mean to say is, where do you draw the line between clever use and abuse.
For instance, turning into a hydra. It's a butt-ton of extra attacks, but it's just attacks. Is that considered abuse or fair use.

I'm well aware that it's a questionable spell line, especially when used in certain ways. I just wanted to know where the line in the sand was being drawn this time.

Well, because it's so open-ended, it's pretty difficult to draw a line in the sand. I want to just say use your best judgment. If you want to use a tactic with Polymorph that seems overpowered to you, it probably is, and I would suggest avoiding that tactic.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's worth noting that the hydra is a form that synergizes particularly well with factotum, because Cunning Surge can grant an entire new set of attacks with each standard action. They can also easily boost their damage with Knowkedge Devotion and Cunning Strike, making a ton of attacks especially strong. It's the gold standard for melee factotums, in my opinion, but that doesn't mean it's the only option. It's nice that pretty much any build can do it without investing resources, though - so the OP can have that ace up his sleeve for when his iajutsu tactics don't really apply, for example, and it won't change his build at all. Again, that kind of flexibility is why I love the class.

[droppedbutnot]

Again, that kind of flexibility is why I love the class.

This is what intrigues me about the class as well.

[Bloodgruve]

This is a great build. And I don't mean to diminish this effort.

That said, I'm not looking for Ziegander's restrictions.
Any chance, Piggy, you can help me think through how to build my Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidation, pick pocketing, trap addressing Factotum?

I'd run
Whisper Gnome w/Dark Creature Template from Tome of Magic for LA+1 (Buyoff ASAP)
Factotum3/Swordsage1/FactotumX

Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 15

Feats
1. TWF, Font of Inspiration, Intimidating Strike
3.Item Familiar (Iaijutsu Focus)
5.Imperious Command
7.Knowledge Devotion
9.Font of Inspiration
11. Font of Inspiration
13. Font of Inspiration
15 - 19. up to you

Skill Tricks - Never Outnumbered, Acrobatic Backstab, Collector of Stories

Gnomish Quickrazors, make one of them magical and make it your Item Familiar. Quite risky but helpful in a campaign where its hard to get the magical items you need.

Have a good Initiative, you get to add your Int bonus to it.

Hide check on movement>standard attack(or Maneuver)> Cunning Surge attack. Tumble is helpful.

Some Maneuvers you get from Swordsage will help you also. Your Initiator level is Swordsage lvl + 1/2 other class levels. You could hold off Swordsage till 5th level to open up 2nd level Maneuvers. Swordsage gives you the stance that shrouds you in darkness which allows Dark Creature to use its HiPS.

Intimidating Strike should allow you to Imperious Command IIRC w/Never Outnumbered. You won't be able to do this if hidden though so use it if you win initiative. You'll take -4 for small race but this is where Alter Self comes into play. Great to gain some natural armor also. Get a wand or eternal wand.

Knowledge Devotion + Collector of Stories makes up for some lost Attack from the 3/4 class BAB. Plus its really fun.

This is mostly setup for combat but it shouldn't diminish the classes facing and skill monkeying at all.

Helpful Spells, Nerveskitter, Blacklight

Helpful Items, Marbles (In a quick release pouch, just don't lose um...), tons of wands and eternal wands, Warning enchantment on your weapon, Handy Haversack... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101)

Hope that helps,

Blood~

P.S. Ziagander, you should start a post for this as not to take away from the OP's requrest.

[droppedbutnot]

Now this was the kind of thing I was looking for. Fantastic. I'll look it over carefully and probably come back with a list of questions. But I'll start with this one: What's the value of taking the item familiar approach?

:cool::cool::cool:

[(Un)Inspired]

Now this was the kind of thing I was looking for. Fantastic. I'll look it over carefully and probably come back with a list of questions. But I'll start with this one: What's the value of taking the item familiar approach?

:cool::cool::cool:

Basically loads of free skill points, some cool minor free abilities, extra XP and a little item buddy you can talk to if you get lonely.

It's worth noting that in the above build you could dodge spending a feat on TWF and just grab it with heroics.

[Bloodgruve]

Now this was the kind of thing I was looking for. Fantastic. I'll look it over carefully and probably come back with a list of questions. But I'll start with this one: What's the value of taking the item familiar approach?

Item Familiar does a lot of things but mainly here allows you to invest your skill ranks into it to a maximum of your total skill ranks. Essentially doubling your skill ranks if you want. Problem is if its destroyed or lost you lose all your invested ranks.

At level 6 you could have 9 ranks, with Item Familiar you can 'invest' 18 skill ranks to give up to +9 to a specific skill. If you choose Iaijutsu Focus this gives you 18+Modifier bonus to your roll.

At level 11 or so I was consistently adding 8 or 9 d6 IF to each attack with a +42 to IF or something like that.

Make sure the feat is kool with your DM though as it can be controversial.

[Zetapup]

Item Familiar does a lot of things but mainly here allows you to invest your skill ranks into it to a maximum of your total skill ranks. Essentially doubling your skill ranks if you want. Problem is if its destroyed or lost you lose all your invested ranks.

At level 6 you could have 9 ranks, with Item Familiar you can 'invest' 18 skill ranks to give up to +9 to a specific skill. If you choose Iaijutsu Focus this gives you 18+Modifier bonus to your roll.

At level 11 or so I was consistently adding 8 or 9 d6 IF to each attack with a +42 to IF or something like that.

Make sure the feat is kool with your DM though as it can be controversial.

Wait, doesn't the character only get a +1 per 3 ranks in the item familiar? Unless I'm reading this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) wrong, you'd invest the 18 skill ranks and get a +6 bonus to a skill (or lower bonuses spread out to multiple skills, but eh). The experience bonus is frosting on top of the cake. Definitely talk to your dm about it, and make sure to make the item familiar out of something durable- riverine or something similar.

[Rubik]

Wait, doesn't the character only get a +1 per 3 ranks in the item familiar? Unless I'm reading this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) wrong, you'd invest the 18 skill ranks and get a +6 bonus to a skill (or lower bonuses spread out to multiple skills, but eh). The experience bonus is frosting on top of the cake. Definitely talk to your dm about it, and make sure to make the item familiar out of something durable- riverine or something similar.I'd make a body graft my item familiar and apply it to myself. Any time it's damaged (or destroyed), I could simply cast Regenerate to get it back. That, or use my warforged's body armor for it.

[Bloodgruve]

Wait, doesn't the character only get a +1 per 3 ranks in the item familiar? Unless I'm reading this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) wrong, you'd invest the 18 skill ranks and get a +6 bonus to a skill (or lower bonuses spread out to multiple skills, but eh). The experience bonus is frosting on top of the cake. Definitely talk to your dm about it, and make sure to make the item familiar out of something durable- riverine or something similar.

Bah, its been a year or so since I retired that guy, yep, its 3 skill points per 1 for Item Familiar :)

[Piggy Knowles]

I haven't finished putting together a full build stub, but I'm thinking of a slightly different direction for your first ten levels:

Kalashtar, Factotum 8/Warblade 2
Str 16/Dex 17/Con 13/Int 18/Wis 10/Cha 12

1. Factotum1- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (gnomish quickrazor), Dreadful Wrath (F), Improved Initiative (F)
2. Warblade1-
Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steely Strike, Leading the Charge
3. Factotum2- Font of Inspiration
4. Factotum3-
5. Factotum4- Imperious Command
6. Factotum5-
7. Factotum6- Psionic Meditation
8. Warblade2-
Iron Heart Surge
9. Factotum7- Font of Inspiration
10. Factotum8-

A couple of points...

1. Whisper gnomes make kind of terrible intimidate users - in addition to their Charisma penalty, they get an effective -4 penalty to Intimidate checks due to their small size. For that reason, I decided to just eat the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat rather than use one, even though they're standard for this sort of thing. But...

2. That opened up kalashtar as a potential race, which means that you can have all sorts of fun with psionics. In particular, you'll be getting a lot of use out of expending your psionic focus to "take 15" on a Concentration check, which powers Sapphire Nightmare Blade and Moment of Perfect Mind. You can replace kalashtar with any other psionic race that meets your fancy - synad is also a good choice.

3. Warblade 1 was taken at second level so that you have a reliable way of activating iaijutsu focus from the get-go: Sapphire Nightmare Blade. The swordsage's recovery mechanic is too unreliable to get more than one use of Sapphire Nightmare Blade per encounter - at that point, you might as well forgo the dip and just take Martial Study.

4. Charging is surprisingly good for an iaijutsu factotum, as a way to open up combat. Remember, enemies are flat-footed if you act before them. Take advantage of it!

Your M.O. comes online at level 2, and looks something like this:

Round 1: Charge someone who you beat in initiative. With a +7 initiative modifier, you should always beat at least someone in initiative. Draw your weapon as you charge for iaijutsu focus damage, plus a little bonus damage from Leading the Charge. Trigger your Dreadful Wrath aura for charging, requiring all enemies within 20' of you to save or be shaken for a minute. Sheathe your quickrazor as a free action.

Round 2: Use Sapphire Nightmare Blade, expending your psionic focus to take 15 on the required Concentration check to guarantee flat-footedness, plus an extra +1d6 damage.

At level 4, your initiative bumps up to +11 without items thanks to Brains Over Brawn. At level 5, you can start intimidate-locking enemies as well. In fact, if you can get your hands on some fearsome armor (Drow of the Underdark), you can carry a spinning sword in your offhand (you don't need to be proficient in it), and do the following:

Round 1: Charge as above, triggering Dreadful Wrath and iaijutsu focus.

Round 2: Use Sapphire Nightmare Blade as a standard action, expending psionic focus. As a move action, intimidate any enemy within 10'. You just need to threaten an enemy, so the spinning sword does the trick for you. Now you can attack the enemy in front of you, and fear-lock an enemy nearby. They're cowering for the next round, and the round after, if they failed their initial save from Dreadful Wrath, they're frightened thanks to fear-stacking fun.

Round 3: Move action recover psionic focus, free action refresh maneuvers, attack. (You may want to forgo recovering your psionic focus if the enemy you're fear locking succeeded on his initial save versus Dreadful Wrath, though.)

As you go up in levels, you'll want to take the Master Pickpocket feat from City of Stormreach, which reduces the penalty by 10 (!) for stealing as a free action, so now you're stealing in addition to all of the above, without hurting any of the above tactics.

EDIT: Missed the BAB requirement on EWP. Bump it back to third level and take Font of Inspiration at first.

[Bloodgruve]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency requires +1 BAB to take. Gotta move it out to lvl 3 :/

Forgot about the -4 for small races also. I'll edit mine. Another great use for Alter Self ;) Also, if you look at Elan as a psionic race it opens up Alter Self to Aberrations.
(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0)
Blood~

[Piggy Knowles]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency requires +1 BAB to take. Gotta move it out to lvl 3 :/

Forgot about the -4 for small races also. I'll edit mine. Another great use for Alter Self ;) Also, if you look at Elan as a psionic race it opens up Alter Self to Aberrations.
(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0)
Blood~

Whoops, good point. Even more important to charge early on, then, as you can draw your weapon while charging.

Synad is psionic, an aberration, and doesn't come with a Charisma penalty.

[Bloodgruve]

Whoops, good point. Even more important to charge early on, then, as you can draw your weapon while charging.

Synad is psionic, an aberration, and doesn't come with a Charisma penalty.

I shoulda known that, good call.

[droppedbutnot]

I know I'm a little behind here. But here goes.

First, thanks so much. This is great. I'll intersperse my thoughts and questions.


I'd run
Whisper Gnome w/Dark Creature Template from Tome of Magic for LA+1 (Buyoff ASAP)
Factotum3/Swordsage1/FactotumX
Whisper Gnome seems like a great choice, especially because of how it affects attributes and that it gives you access to the Gnomish Quickrazors. But, I'm also wondering whether I can go human and hold out for a dip, a la Haberdasher, into Master of Masks. That extra feat and those extra skill points can be quite helpful.

Is the Swordsage dip really worth it?


Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 15

Feats
1. TWF, Font of Inspiration, Intimidating Strike
3.Item Familiar (Iaijutsu Focus)
Can one improve an item familiar? That is can I add magical qualities to my item familiar? What should would you add to those Quickrazors?

5.Imperious Command
7.Knowledge Devotion
9.Font of Inspiration
11. Font of Inspiration
13. Font of Inspiration
15 - 19. up to youI don't want to forget sleight of hand and trap work. Am I missing anything special here


Skill Tricks - Never Outnumbered, Acrobatic Backstab, Collector of Stories

Gnomish Quickrazors, make one of them magical and make it your Item Familiar. Quite risky but helpful in a campaign where its hard to get the magical items you need. Like I said above, I'm wondering how I can make the familiar improve with magical abilities over time . . . or can I just get a new familiar as time goes on.


Have a good Initiative, you get to add your Int bonus to it.

Hide check on movement>standard attack(or Maneuver)> Cunning Surge attack. Tumble is helpful.

Some Maneuvers you get from Swordsage will help you also. Your Initiator level is Swordsage lvl + 1/2 other class levels. You could hold off Swordsage till 5th level to open up 2nd level Maneuvers. Swordsage gives you the stance that shrouds you in darkness which allows Dark Creature to use its HiPS. That's quite cool. Doesn't Dark Creature have to be evil?


Intimidating Strike should allow you to Imperious Command IIRC w/Never Outnumbered. You won't be able to do this if hidden though so use it if you win initiative. You'll take -4 for small race but this is where Alter Self comes into play. Great to gain some natural armor also. Get a wand or eternal wand.

Knowledge Devotion + Collector of Stories makes up for some lost Attack from the 3/4 class BAB. Plus its really fun.Amen!


This is mostly setup for combat but it shouldn't diminish the classes facing and skill monkeying at all.

Helpful Spells, Nerveskitter, Blacklight Blacklight looks quite nice. I'm wondering if I can get an item of Blacklight?


Helpful Items, Marbles (In a quick release pouch, just don't lose um...), tons of wands and eternal wands, Warning enchantment on your weapon, Handy Haversack... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101)
This is excellent. Thanks so much. I'd certainly welcome your thoughts on how to bump the sleight of hand and trap work.



Hope that helps,

Blood~
Helped a ton. Thanks.

:cool::cool::cool:

[Rubik]

I prefer the No Light cantrip to Blacklight. Find yourself a ring of the darkhidden for 8,000 gp and a wand of No Light, and you've got a very cheap alternative to a ring of invisibility that acts more like Improved Invisibility. Just make sure you've got Darkvision.

[droppedbutnot]

I prefer the No Light cantrip to Blacklight. Find yourself a ring of the darkhidden for 8,000 gp and a wand of No Light, and you've got a very cheap alternative to a ring of invisibility that acts more like Improved Invisibility. Just make sure you've got Darkvision.

Cool!!

:cool::cool::cool:

[Rubik]

Cool!!

:cool::cool::cool:Just remember that creatures see the area of No Light as a big black blob, so it's a bit more limited in some ways than (Improved) Invisibility, but it's great for letting you lay the smack down on enemies during a fight.

[Zetapup]

Can one improve an item familiar?

Improving An Item Familiar

An item familiar can be improved as other magic items can be. By spending gold pieces (and time and experience points, assuming the character is the one doing the work), a character can add new abilities to his item familiar. If a character links himself to a +1 longsword, for example, it only costs 6,000 gp (or 3,000 gp and 240 XP) to add another +1 of enhancement bonus or, perhaps, a special ability that is equivalent to a +1 bonus (such as spell storing or flaming). The character can accomplish this even without having the requisite item creation feats.

This type of improvement has nothing to do with the master’s character level, though it may affect the item’s eventual Ego score.

Yes, you can improve the item.


Doesn't Dark Creature have to be evil?

Nope

[Bloodgruve]

Whisper Gnome seems like a great choice, especially because of how it affects attributes and that it gives you access to the Gnomish Quickrazors. But, I'm also wondering whether I can go human and hold out for a dip, a la Haberdasher, into Master of Masks. That extra feat and those extra skill points can be quite helpful.

...
Is the Swordsage dip really worth it?

...



Whisper Gnome has the stats to boost Hide for consistant Iaijutsu Focus attacks. Thats why I took it but Human's extra feat makes it kind of a wash even though you cant take Quickrazor proficiency at 1st level.

I ran Swordsage mostly for the Child of the Night stance for being in shadows where ever I ended up at. But I found that the class offered a few great options for mobility and double attacks as a standard action which was helpful. Its not needed as long as you can use spells and magic items to satisfy Dark Creature's HiPS condition.

As for Skills you'll get 10 points a level or 11 as a Human. Hide, Move Silent, Intimidate, Search, Iaijutsu Focus, Open Lock, Disable Device, Tumble, Use Magic Device and the last for everything else. Put 1 rank in all the rest of the skills.

GL
Blood~

[droppedbutnot]

This has all be so helpful. I'm thinking about going Human and taking Master of Masks to get the gladiator mask. It's a level loss, but I don't think hit harms progression all that much. In the interim, not sure what weapon I'd use.

:cool::cool::cool:

[ShriekingDrake]

That was Person_Man's approach, so it's bound to be a good one. You'll be a less effective Iaijutsu Focus attacker (or use up some feats) if you drop the Whisper Gnome. But the feats and skill points may be very worth it. If you can retrain feats later on, you should be able to have much of your cake and eat it too.