Bleach IX: This isn't even my final thread!

[Socratov]

Hello and welcome to the ninth installment of a discussion on Tite Kubo's work titled Bleach. Bleach is a Shounen manga revolving around Ichigo Kurosaki (or Kurosaki Ichigo, whichever you prefer). With his various powers he (frequently) saves the world with his vast array of powers.

the previous threads can be found here:
Bleach VIII: ...All along... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15959416#post15959416)
Bleach VII: "Ichigo, you're a ."
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275941)
Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258585)
Bleach V: Well that was a waste of time (Fullbring? What's that?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228437)
Bleach IV: Swords, Stains & Donuts (Problem, Ichigo?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202921)
Since When Were You Under The Impression There Wasn't a Bleach III?
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173692)Bleach II: I can't believe its not Butterflaizen!
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162988)[S]the first thread still eludes me, sadlyBleach: (Formerly Gin Speculation, now general) (Spoilers) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147423) Found thanks to Max(tm)

[LaZodiac]

Hooray new thread.

On the subject we had previously, the problem with that idea is that it tries to sympathize Aizen, which is wrong and stupid.

[Rater202]

Hooray new thread.

On the subject we had previously, the problem with that idea is that it tries to sympathize Aizen, which is wrong and stupid.

Okay, I'm lost.

What were we talking about?

[Morph Bark]

Clicking around on previous threads:


I'm still waiting for someone to explain the 'Hollow = a kid who picked up a knife' analogy from the last thread. :smalltongue:

The point (I think) was that hollows aren't bad guys. Someone compared them to horrible monsters, but the fact is they have no control over their actions. Like a kid who picks up a knife and accidentally stabs someone.It would be ridiculous to destroy their soul in that case (although as Anteros points out, it's kind of vague whether souls are actually destroyed).

So since thread II we've been having an analogy that Hollows are like kids with knives, and now we've got Yachiru wielding her zanpakuto, and it turns out her shikai has a Hollow look-alike behind it. :smalltongue:

[LaZodiac]

Okay, I'm lost.

What were we talking about?

The Aizen stuff from the last thread. You even responded to it yourself (in the wrong thread :smallredface:)

[Rater202]

The Aizen stuff from the last thread. You even responded to it yourself (in the wrong thread :smallredface:)

you mean Mato being a Jerkface and pushing flawed logic to contradict a solid theory?

you know, i could have sworn that I had him on my ignore list.

Yeah, Aizen ain't sympathetic. Look at him during his trial, or when Yhwach offered him a position in the VR.

I wouldn't be surprised if he has a back up plan just in case he lost control of the Perfect Hogyoku.

[Thrawn183]

I wouldn't be surprised if he has a back up plan just in case he lost control of the Perfect Hogyoku.

Well, we still haven't seen his bankai, right?

[Rater202]

Well, we still haven't seen his bankai, right?

I don't know if he even sill has his Zanpakuto.

on one hand, it kinda dissolved when the Hogyoku abandoned him, on the other he did do that small time illusion on Yhwach, and we do have that whole "The Sword isn't the Zanpakuto, it's just a tool to use it's power" thing from when Ichigo got his reforged.

[Starwulf]

posting to mark new thread.

[LaZodiac]

posting to mark new thread.

You don't need to post to subscribed to threads. You also shouldn't just post to have posted in a thread. Discuss things!

For instance, what's everyone's predictions for next chapter?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Captain Bloodknight stomps the yard all over Peter Pan's face due to the peerless might of the rule of cool. If it doesn't simply just happen next comic though, it will be only to reveal the gimmick to the twerp's power.

[Max™]

the first thread still eludes me, sadly
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147423

There ya go.

Google'D "site:giantitp.com bleach" and put the custom date range from 1/1/2010 to 8/4/2010 (date of the second thread), figured I'd share that since the gitp forum search has been dead for longer than Old Man Genocide huh?

[Macros]

For instance, what's everyone's predictions for next chapter?

Well, I fully expect a repeat of the classic formula. Zaraki trashes his opponent, said opponent reveals his power and gain the upper hand, Kenpachi gets serious and trashes his opponent again, who then reveals that AH-AH! he had an other power-up under his sleeve, and starts beating up Chuck Norris, who then gets fed up with all this nonsense, release his newly learned Shikai (Bankai?) and one-shot the guy.

God I hope I'm wrong. If anything, Zaraki is perhaps the only one who has a chance to step out of the rails.

[Socratov]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147423

There ya go.

Google'D "site:giantitp.com bleach" and put the custom date range from 1/1/2010 to 8/4/2010 (date of the second thread), figured I'd share that since the gitp forum search has been dead for longer than Old Man Genocide huh?


Thanks, man I did use a similar tactic, but I didn't find it, probably due to not including the dates :smallwink:

[HandofShadows]

I'm hopiong Zaraki just kills him and then walks over and drops Unohana telling Isane she has work to do.

[Morph Bark]

I'm hopiong Zaraki just kills him and then walks over and drops Unohana telling Isane she has work to do.

While that could be appropriate, it would take a bit away from their fight and sacrifice on part of both her and Zaraki.

I'd find it a great thing to do if it weren't for the fact that up until this arc not a single named shinigami was killed, except during a backstory flashback.

[danzibr]

You don't need to post to subscribed to threads. You also shouldn't just post to have posted in a thread. Discuss things!

For instance, what's everyone's predictions for next chapter?

Well, I fully expect a repeat of the classic formula. Zaraki trashes his opponent, said opponent reveals his power and gain the upper hand, Kenpachi gets serious and trashes his opponent again, who then reveals that AH-AH! he had an other power-up under his sleeve, and starts beating up Chuck Norris, who then gets fed up with all this nonsense, release his newly learned Shikai (Bankai?) and one-shot the guy.

God I hope I'm wrong. If anything, Zaraki is perhaps the only one who has a chance to step out of the rails.
I'm kind of thinking Zaraki's going to curb stomp him from the get-go.

[MammonAzrael]

I'll be a little surprised if Kenpachi wins straight out the gate, for several reasons:


We just had a Sternritter disposed of in short order with V, to do the same with I would feel odd narratively, IMO.
Of all the various powers that could be brought to bear against Kenpachi, I's power, whatever it may actually be, seems most likely to put up some level of resistance, given how it won't challenge Kenpachi's strength directly.
Kenpachi's Shikai should be given an opportunity to shine, given how hotly anticipated it has been. A short fight of less than a chapter would not do it justice.
Next chapter will probably just be Kenpachi catching up with Yachiru, before turning to threaten I at the close of the chapter. :smalltongue:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Ken's Bankai: Nothing can happen that Ken doesn't understand.

Ritter I: *pees self* before *dead*

[Macros]

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. A power using the other guy imagination isn't quite optimal against Zaraki.

[Anteros]

Clicking around on previous threads:




So since thread II we've been having an analogy that Hollows are like kids with knives, and now we've got Yachiru wielding her zanpakuto, and it turns out her shikai has a Hollow look-alike behind it. :smalltongue:

Seeing my name in that thread threw me for a loop. I had to go find the original posts so I could remember the argument I was making at the time.

[LaZodiac]

New Chapter: Kenpachi vs Gremmy!

So little happened this chapter oh my god. But it was really good. Gremmy brags about imagining he's the strongest, but then gets interrupted mid speech about how he can just imagine he's stronger then steel to avoid being cut, by almost getting his arm sliced off.

And Kenpachi's reason for not being able to be defeated? Cause he's Kenpachi.

[HandofShadows]

Hmm. This kid does not use someone elses imagination. His power is based on what he personally can imagine. And as this chapter showed Kenpachi's strength is something he is unable to imagine. Yeah, I think this is going to be more towards a curbstomp. Kennie's not happy about who he got the name and I actually feel a bit sorry for him.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Captain Bloodknight stomps the yard all over Peter Pan's face due to the peerless might of the rule of cool. If it doesn't simply just happen next comic though, it will be only to reveal the gimmick to the twerp's power.

Who called it? This guy. *thumbs up and back*

[danzibr]

I wonder if we'll even see his shikai this fight... probably doesn't need it.

[ben-zayb]

For a guy whose power is basically at will Wish/Reality Revision, that's some pretty poor showing. Aizen will chairpalm if he ever meets this joke.

On a positive note, Kenpachi shows how BAMF he turned out to be. And he isn't even using his shikai. Can someone say fodder treatment?

[Socratov]

For a guy whose power is basically at will Wish/Reality Revision, that's some pretty poor showing. Aizen will chairpalm if he ever meets this joke.

On a positive note, Kenpachi shows how BAMF he turned out to be. And he isn't even using his shikai. Can someone say fodder treatment?

Well, I think it's obvious by now that Kubo is settin gup for a triple worf: first he lets the sternritter completely own the Gotei captains (1st worf), then he let's the gotei captains come back with a vengeance owning the Sternritter (2nd worf) and then he will let the captains perish against Ywach (3rd worf) before Ichigo goes to town. At which point we can all yell C-C-C-COMBOBREAKER! in a loud and booming voice.

Still quite entertaining though...

[Rater202]

On a positive note, Kenpachi shows how BAMF he turned out to be. And he isn't even using his shikai. Can someone say fodder treatment?

I could of sworn that his was in constant Shikai, but he couldn't use it's powers becuase he didn't know the name.

His was compared to Zangetsu early one, and Zangetsu being a constant release type was brought up.

Wait, with the reforging, wouuld Zangetsu still be a constant release type-it was said that the reason he couldn't be sealed was becuase Ichigo couldn't cntroll his power yet, but 1. more or less everything else we've been told about Ichigo's power before now has been wrong, and 2, the old man was screwing with Ichigo's power for a long time, so whose to say he wasn't messing with his control too.

Back onto the topic of the Chapter, If this Guy is the V, "Visionary", then either the last guy was a complete figment of his imagination, or Sternritter sharing a letter is not uncommon

[Morph Bark]

I think I can honestly say this was the least eventful chapter I've ever read. :smallsigh:

[ben-zayb]

I could of sworn that his was in constant Shikai, but he couldn't use it's powers becuase he didn't know the name.

His was compared to Zangetsu early one, and Zangetsu being a constant release type was brought up.

Wait, with the reforging, wouuld Zangetsu still be a constant release type-it was said that the reason he couldn't be sealed was becuase Ichigo couldn't cntroll his power yet, but 1. more or less everything else we've been told about Ichigo's power before now has been wrong, and 2, the old man was screwing with Ichigo's power for a long time, so whose to say he wasn't messing with his control too.

Back onto the topic of the Chapter, If this Guy is the V, "Visionary", then either the last guy was a complete figment of his imagination, or Sternritter sharing a letter is not uncommonI think it's the first one, although with all the honorific stuff I get the feeling that it's based on a previous SR V (who knows how many got that letter before Gremmy, anyway).

[darksolitaire]

He's just standing there...menacingly.

[Thrawn183]

I think I can honestly say this was the least eventful chapter I've ever read. :smallsigh:

Pretty much, not even any angst or anything.

[Olinser]

I could of sworn that his was in constant Shikai, but he couldn't use it's powers becuase he didn't know the name.

His was compared to Zangetsu early one, and Zangetsu being a constant release type was brought up.

Wait, with the reforging, wouuld Zangetsu still be a constant release type-it was said that the reason he couldn't be sealed was becuase Ichigo couldn't cntroll his power yet, but 1. more or less everything else we've been told about Ichigo's power before now has been wrong, and 2, the old man was screwing with Ichigo's power for a long time, so whose to say he wasn't messing with his control too.

Back onto the topic of the Chapter, If this Guy is the V, "Visionary", then either the last guy was a complete figment of his imagination, or Sternritter sharing a letter is not uncommon

It seems to be that

The other guy wasn't a Sternritter at all, but just another facet of the real one's powers.

The only other Sternritter that had a shared letter was the 'Y', which arguably because of their unique situation were considered 1 entity.

And by the way, the second he said 'What if I were stronger than steel", I totally called Zaraki's response of, "LOL so what".


Also, I'm not really sure I believe him when he says that

Unohana is dead. I'm guessing they're going to pull something like, "Unohana is dead, I'm now Yachiru again".

[Rater202]

Unohana is dead. I'm guessing they're going to pull something like, "Unohana is dead, I'm now Yachiru again".

Can't be that.

Unohana is her real name.

Retsu Unohana is fake.

Her real name was Yachiru Unohana.

and two Yachiru's would be confusing.

[lord_khaine]

I guess im currently the only guy cheering for V now..?

Even if i am a little disapointed that someone with such a hax power has not yet wiped the floor with Kenpachi :smallfrown:

[The Troubadour]

Even if i am a little disapointed that someone with such a hax power has not yet wiped the floor with Kenpachi :smallfrown:

I think the issue is that while his ability is extremely versatile, its power is still limited by the clash of spiritual energies between himself and his target. So Yachiru is powerless against him, but Kenpachi, with his humongous amount of spiritual energy, can surpass him just fine.

Also: is it just me, or did Kenpachi switch his eyepatch to a different eye?

[Morph Bark]

I think a large part of Imagination Kid's problem is that his imagination isn't good enough. "What if my skin were stronger than steel?" Please, he should've gone for nanodiamonds. At least. Kenpachi has cut through steel and people with iron skin (Arrancar) before, even through the supposedly strongest Arrancar.

The worst part is that Imagination Kid should know this, since the Vandenreich spent so much time in Hueco Mundo all these years.

It's like they gave a Green Lantern Ring to Arthur Dent.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

It's like they gave a Green Lantern Ring to Arthur Dent.

Funniest thing I've read today. haha

[Anteros]

I think a large part of Imagination Kid's problem is that his imagination isn't good enough. "What if my skin were stronger than steel?" Please, he should've gone for nanodiamonds. At least. Kenpachi has cut through steel and people with iron skin (Arrancar) before, even through the supposedly strongest Arrancar.

The worst part is that Imagination Kid should know this, since the Vandenreich spent so much time in Hueco Mundo all these years.

It's like they gave a Green Lantern Ring to Arthur Dent.

It's stupid to give himself a limitation at all. Why pick steel when you could just go "What if I was completely invulnerable to damage?"

[LaZodiac]

So, watching a manga podcast, and it appears that in the officially translated version, Gemmy outright states that the Vanishing Point is a product of his own creation.

[ben-zayb]

It's stupid to give himself a limitation at all. Why pick steel when you could just go "What if I was completely invulnerable to damage?"This. At the very least, he can even imagine that Zaraki's sword is made out of steel in order for his very limited impermeable-to-steel body to work. There's practically infinite uses for this power, really.

[MammonAzrael]

To be fair, the only way this power works narratively is if it is given to an arrogant moron. So I'm not sure what we can really expect. :smallfrown: Vanishing Point had more potential, I think.

[lord_khaine]

Oh yeah.. just to start with he should have gone for turning Kenpachi's sword to soap or something like that.. that would have been a laugh :smalltongue:

[ben-zayb]

Oh yeah.. just to start with he should have gone for turning Kenpachi's sword to soap or something like that.. that would have been a laugh :smalltongue:Soaps are one of the most dangerous improvised weapon. What are you talking about?:smalltongue:

Also, another manga already individually showed how Soap and Washing can be put to effective use in combat.:smallbiggrin:

[danzibr]

I could of sworn that his was in constant Shikai, but he couldn't use it's powers becuase he didn't know the name.

His was compared to Zangetsu early one, and Zangetsu being a constant release type was brought up.

Wait, with the reforging, wouuld Zangetsu still be a constant release type-it was said that the reason he couldn't be sealed was becuase Ichigo couldn't cntroll his power yet, but 1. more or less everything else we've been told about Ichigo's power before now has been wrong, and 2, the old man was screwing with Ichigo's power for a long time, so whose to say he wasn't messing with his control too.

Back onto the topic of the Chapter, If this Guy is the V, "Visionary", then either the last guy was a complete figment of his imagination, or Sternritter sharing a letter is not uncommon
Interesting.
Yeah, I guess he was in constant shikai. Just nerfed (despite being so powerful) and unable to use any abilities.

As for Ichigo... I hope that's the case. Good development.

I think I can honestly say this was the least eventful chapter I've ever read. :smallsigh:
I wonder how long it would take in anime form? One minute?

Also, regarding the imagination stuff,
Perhaps there is literally nothing Zaraki can't cut through. Or perhaps there is a slight limitation on V's powers.

[LaZodiac]

Soaps are one of the most dangerous improvised weapon. What are you talking about?:smalltongue:

Also, another manga already individually showed how Soap and Washing can be put to effective use in combat.:smallbiggrin:

Soooft, and, Weeeeeto~

*soap bubble pops and takes away your ability to move*

God I love Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

[HandofShadows]

I think a large part of Imagination Kid's problem is that his imagination isn't good enough.

Actually a good imagination could be a weakness as long as the person was sane. That's because they could imagine what their power would be able to do and be scared as all %##& by it. Oddly enough, only the totaly insane would be able to make full use of the power. This concept is examined over at the SCP Foundation in a couple of different ways. Transcript of Dr. Clef's seminar, "Reality Benders and You: How to Survive When Existence Doesn't." is a great intro what COULD be done by a Reality Bender/Type Green/Mary Sue/Bixbie/Shaper/etc. And this kid is falling waaaay short of them.



It's like they gave a Green Lantern Ring to Arthur Dent.

I actually think Dent would do a LOT better than this kid. He may not have a huge imagination, but I think he would be practical in his power use. Rather than imagine himself as steel, he woudl imagine not to be anyplace the sword could hit him. Not brave, but practical. :smallbiggrin:

[The Troubadour]

I still think the power, like everything else in Bleach, isn't limited by the user's imagination, but rather by his spiritual energy.

[thubby]

waste of a chapter if you ask me. i mean, really? 22 pages to say unohana is dead?

[Olinser]

It's stupid to give himself a limitation at all. Why pick steel when you could just go "What if I was completely invulnerable to damage?"

I'm guessing he can't. He's probably limited by 3 things - his actual spirit power, how fast he can think, and the fact that he has to imagine actual events and items.

The first is obvious. I imagine the further he takes something from it's original makeup, the more power it takes (creating things out of whole cloth probably takes even more power).

The second is also pretty obvious. If he has to imagine it, he's limited by how fast he can think. If he gets pressured he's not going to be able to think clearly. If he panics or just can't think of something fast enough, Zaraki will just kill him instantly.

For the third - his power is based on imagination. You have to actually imagine something solidly to manifest it.

Things like 'invulnerable' aren't actual physical concepts.There is no solid matter in existence that can't be cut in one way or another.

Something like "Your bones are cookies" or "My skin is stronger than steel" are tangible, defined things.

His mistake was not thinking something like, "What if I were TEN MILLION TIMES as resilient as steel." That's a solid, tangible concept.

The fact that he didn't gives me the impression that he's being limited by his spirit energy rather than his ability.



That being said, I guarantee you he's about to imagine 'my arm regrowing'.

[HandofShadows]

More than that. It establishes the bad guy and his powers. More importantly it establishes Zaraki taking over the title and Isane not hating Zaraki for it. (It seems he hates himself about it enough. Did Zaraki say Isane could kill him or just an odd translation? No TRY to kill him?) And that Zaraki is going to be a lot more seriouse in his fights from now one. A lot less Blood Knight, more cold blooded "you are going to die". He is NOT going to lose and discrace his new name.

[thubby]

I'm guessing he can't. He's probably limited by 3 things - his actual spirit power, how fast he can think, and the fact that he has to imagine actual events and items.

The first is obvious. I imagine the further he takes something from it's original makeup, the more power it takes (creating things out of whole cloth probably takes even more power).

The second is also pretty obvious. If he has to imagine it, he's limited by how fast he can think. If he gets pressured he's not going to be able to think clearly. If he panics or just can't think of something fast enough, Zaraki will just kill him instantly.

For the third - his power is based on imagination. You have to actually imagine something solidly to manifest it.

Things like 'invulnerable' aren't actual physical concepts.There is no solid matter in existence that can't be cut in one way or another.

Something like "Your bones are cookies" or "My skin is stronger than steel" are tangible, defined things.

His mistake was not thinking something like, "What if I were TEN MILLION TIMES as resilient as steel." That's a solid, tangible concept.

The fact that he didn't gives me the impression that he's being limited by his spirit energy rather than his ability.



That being said, I guarantee you he's about to imagine 'my arm regrowing'.

it's actually a lot simpler than this. he hasn't imagined kenny out of existence. there are clearly limits to his power not tied to his imagination.

also, im beginning to think his power isn't dependent on his imagination, but rather his victim's. he uses a little raw power and some mind games to get people to believe something is happening, and then it is.

gets medic girl to think her patients are dead, and they are. break yachiru's hand, then make up some crazy nonsense and she'll think it just long enough to make it happen, which reenforces it.

kenpachi doesn't believe he will cut his target/ isn't thinking about it and so he doesn't. the moment he believes his target is made of iron, which he knows he can cut, bam.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Boy says his skin is as hard as steel.
*Ken cuts boy's arm off*
Boy says-
*Ken beats boy to death with "steel" arm*

[LaZodiac]

Boy says his skin is as hard as steel.
*Ken cuts boy's arm off*
Boy says-
*Ken beats boy to death with "steel" arm*

Yeah, that's basically how this fights gonna go.

[LaZodiac]

While we were gone, Kenpachi...continues to not give a single **** about the imagination guys powers. It's kind of hilarious how little he cares. Oh, a wave of lava? SLICE IN HALF.

[danzibr]

While we were gone, Kenpachi...continues to not give a single **** about the imagination guys powers. It's kind of hilarious how little he cares. Oh, a wave of lava? SLICE IN HALF.
Yeah, that was sweet. When imagination kid made the comment about, "No matter how much of a monster you are, blah blah blah," I realized that's how he was going to get owned. He can't imagine just how bamf Kenpachi is.

[Infernally Clay]

While we were gone, Kenpachi...continues to not give a single **** about the imagination guys powers. It's kind of hilarious how little he cares. Oh, a wave of lava? SLICE IN HALF.

That made me laugh. Zaraki really is about to blow this kid's mind, isn't it? :smallcool:

[Morph Bark]

Imagination kid does a little better in last week's chapter, but still below Lantern Dent levels.

[HandofShadows]

Oh it is SO, SO good to be BACK!

As for Zaraki, yeah he is just more powerfull than the kid can imagine. What's more Zaraki just figured out his weakness. In order to effect anything he has to be able to conentrate on it. This sadistic little ^&*#@! is toast.

[Anteros]

I still think the power, like everything else in Bleach, isn't limited by the user's imagination, but rather by his spiritual energy.

My problem with this isn't that I necessarily think you're wrong...it's just that it's not good writing. It takes away the fun of having creative and inventive powers, because in the end everything just comes down to a spiritual measuring contest.

[thubby]

My problem with this isn't that I necessarily think you're wrong...it's just that it's not good writing. It takes away the fun of having creative and inventive powers, because in the end everything just comes down to a spiritual measuring contest.

that's one of the reasons i liked gin. for the few fights he's in, he wins by being clever and a bit sadistic

[darksolitaire]

New chapter.

This'll be a good place for speculation on if Zaraki's Shikai is active right now. Remember, Kenpachi is not something you do, it's a state of mind :smallamused: or something.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Peter Pan must be an Ork, -cause he imagines that this fight needs moar dakka.

[Macros]

Thoughts about the chapter.

Is that kid even trying anymore? Ok perhaps he's getting pumped up, but so far, that translated with an actual decrease in efficiency. Rocks, bullets and missiles, really? All that does is making Kenpachi looks good, without actually showing any real progress from him. It was a clear step back compared to the previous chapter, where his method didn't work, but was actually a clever counter, and I'm still trying to guess why he didn't try again what he did to Yachiru.

*sigh* At this rate, Zaraki is going to win without having shown anything at all.

[ben-zayb]

Remember the last time an SR loses his **** and eventually wins? Me neither. This Gremmy guy's fate is sealed the moment that his Raepface showed.

It's funny that when I first read the chapter, I thought Askin and Pepe were referring to Ywach unleashing Gremmy. But... what if in reality, it was Kenpachi Zaraki that he unleashed to SS years ago?

[HandofShadows]

I think they were talking about Gremmy. They think Zaraki is dangerouse, but they have no clue on how dangeouse he has become. (He has gone through an Ichigo class power upgrade :smalleek: ) Zaraki hasn't even taken off his eye patch yet. And I don't think it will be taken off for this fight either. Also did we see a little character growth from him?

[Primal Fury]

Wow. I mean... Out of friggin' nowhere, just GUNS. That's so weird. Have we ever even seen guns in this manga before? Why are there no zanpakuto that turn into guns? Well whatever. Why were the other two SR pumping up Gremmy anyway? He doesn't seem to be using his power to its fullest potential right now. It seems like, if anything you could imagine happens, you'd think up whatever you need to finish the battle and be done with it. I understand that's difficult, maybe even impossible, to apply to Kenpachi, but he could still be making better use of it.

[ben-zayb]

Wow. I mean... Out of friggin' nowhere, just GUNS. That's so weird. Have we ever even seen guns in this manga before? Why are there no zanpakuto that turn into guns? Well whatever. Why were the other two SR pumping up Gremmy anyway? He doesn't seem to be using his power to its fullest potential right now. It seems like, if anything you could imagine happens, you'd think up whatever you need to finish the battle and be done with it. I understand that's difficult, maybe even impossible, to apply to Kenpachi, but he could still be making better use of it.
Coyote Stark and BG9 said hello! Soifon also has a modern weapon zanpakutou, though not necessarily a gun.:smalltongue:

At this point I think Gremmy is a god-wizard who wants to play like an evoker.

[Rater202]

Wow. I mean... Out of friggin' nowhere, just GUNS. That's so weird. Have we ever even seen guns in this manga before? Why are there no zanpakuto that turn into guns? Well whatever. Why were the other two SR pumping up Gremmy anyway? He doesn't seem to be using his power to its fullest potential right now. It seems like, if anything you could imagine happens, you'd think up whatever you need to finish the battle and be done with it. I understand that's difficult, maybe even impossible, to apply to Kenpachi, but he could still be making better use of it.

There's the Old Sternritter, he looks Kinda like Commissioner Gorden from Batman, and his quincy spirit weapon looks like a pistol

[Somensjev]

with gremmy, from the translation i have, it almost seems like it's not quite his "imagination" that becomes real, but more like his "day dreams", i may just be reading into this too much, but i think that he doesnt think somehting then it happens, i think his mind wonders from thought to thought and he selectively makes them real, which might be why they seem so random at times, so he's not really a god-wizard, but more like a deck of many things

or possibly he wanders from thought to thought and they become real regardless of his personal wishes, and he just acts like he planned it all? live when kenpachi jumped, he made what seemed like a little story, or the written account of a child's day dream

i'm probably entirely wrong, but that might be why he can't just go "i imagine that i win" or "i imagine i'm omnipotent" or something else like that

[Morph Bark]

Remember the last time an SR loses his **** and eventually wins? Me neither. This Gremmy guy's fate is sealed the moment that his Raepface showed.

It's funny that when I first read the chapter, I thought Askin and Pepe were referring to Ywach unleashing Gremmy. But... what if in reality, it was Kenpachi Zaraki that he unleashed to SS years ago?

Or it could just be they were using Gremmy to lure out Kenpachi, and they have some sort of plan to use him.


I think they were talking about Gremmy. They think Zaraki is dangerouse, but they have no clue on how dangeouse he has become. (He has gone through an Ichigo class power upgrade :smalleek: ) Zaraki hasn't even taken off his eye patch yet. And I don't think it will be taken off for this fight either. Also did we see a little character growth from him?

Zaraki is about to take his eyepatch off though. Next chapter should be promising!


Wow. I mean... Out of friggin' nowhere, just GUNS. That's so weird. Have we ever even seen guns in this manga before? Why are there no zanpakuto that turn into guns? Well whatever. Why were the other two SR pumping up Gremmy anyway? He doesn't seem to be using his power to its fullest potential right now. It seems like, if anything you could imagine happens, you'd think up whatever you need to finish the battle and be done with it. I understand that's difficult, maybe even impossible, to apply to Kenpachi, but he could still be making better use of it.

Soul Society is old fashioned, as are the Shinigami, so not having seen guns prior to the Quincy showing up is logical enough. In the real world they haven't shown up much mainly because guns are illegal in Japan, whereas it's not illegal to own a sword.

Also, I doubt Gremmy is fully sane. Like chaotic stupid says, it might well be it's more his daydreams than his imaginations becoming reality. And if what you just happen to think of becomes reality, you'd likely stop seeing a difference between daydreams and reality. Gremmy is the living incarnation of schizophrenia, and therefore likely doesn't have straight, methodical and strategic thinking down pat like some other characters do. He is mostly looking calm at first because he has no reason to be angry and he always has had little contact with other people, as evidenced by what the other Quincy say about him. Then Kenpachi shows up and things get interesting, especially since this dude just is defying your daydreams, your reality. He's an abnormality in the reality of someone whose reality is already very abnormal. It's no wonder he might be going for the first best thing that pops into his head and lose his cool at the same time.

Plus, y'know, to finish an opponent you'd need to know what you need to win, and when you're up against someone whose abilities you don't know, that can be a tough job.

[Primal Fury]

Aaaaaah. That does make sense. I had forgotten that guns were just straight up illegal in Japan.

[LaZodiac]

I have a theory regarding why Gremmy is such a loser who can't use his super op power well: First off, he just likes playing with people. It's clear from how he mentions no one ever defies him in the Sternritter. He just wants to throw his power around. It's no fun to kill someone, but it is fun to turn their bones into cookies.

Secondly, the reason why, against someone like Kenpachi, he's not just immediately killing him like we know he can apparently do...that's Kenpachi's shikai. His shikai's power is to set up a field of battle lust that causes everyone but Kenpachi to start feeling the furious rage of bloodlust, and as such start fighting like an idiot, but as strong as possible to compensate.

[Somensjev]

I have a theory regarding why Gremmy is such a loser who can't use his super op power well: First off, he just likes playing with people. It's clear from how he mentions no one ever defies him in the Sternritter. He just wants to throw his power around. It's no fun to kill someone, but it is fun to turn their bones into cookies.

Secondly, the reason why, against someone like Kenpachi, he's not just immediately killing him like we know he can apparently do...that's Kenpachi's shikai. His shikai's power is to set up a field of battle lust that causes everyone but Kenpachi to start feeling the furious rage of bloodlust, and as such start fighting like an idiot, but as strong as possible to compensate.

why.. why does this make so much sense? LaZodiac now makes too much sense to be allowed on the internet

and that would be an awesome shikai :smallamused:

[Olinser]

I have a theory regarding why Gremmy is such a loser who can't use his super op power well: First off, he just likes playing with people. It's clear from how he mentions no one ever defies him in the Sternritter. He just wants to throw his power around. It's no fun to kill someone, but it is fun to turn their bones into cookies.

Secondly, the reason why, against someone like Kenpachi, he's not just immediately killing him like we know he can apparently do...that's Kenpachi's shikai. His shikai's power is to set up a field of battle lust that causes everyone but Kenpachi to start feeling the furious rage of bloodlust, and as such start fighting like an idiot, but as strong as possible to compensate.

Not so much the fun involved.

He's never actually FOUGHT anybody before. He has absolutely zero experience fighting ANY opponent, much less one that can actually challenge him.

By now Zaraki has fought and killed what... thousands of people?

Battle experience is a big thing, and the Sternritter has none of it.

[TechnoWarforged]

Theory time:

Kenpachi is actually a Quincy, or a Quincy/Shigami Hybrid. It makes sense because he never have a bankai and no matter how hard he tries he never will have one. He also have this overwhelming spirtual power that's surpressed by his eye-patch (which is actually made out of hollows). What is the supposed counter to Quincy power? Hollows.

Also remembering Kenpachi's fight vs Ichigo (rescue rukia arc), the manifestation of their spirtual power is eerily similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_NpmY2QxNs from 7:15 onward where their spiritual power form faces and clash towards each other.

[Thrawn183]

Theory time:

It makes sense because he never have a bankai and no matter how hard he tries he never will have one.



Since when has Kenpachi ever cared about having a bankai?

[Fjolnir]

I liked this chapter however this fight is going to go downhill fast. For one important reason: if you are powered by https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCWVRLeoWBu8Vp6-S699miVRr0L99UjjjzzYw1yJ9qeRxou63W4Q
the LAST thing you want to do is have ANY sort of doubt that you can win...

[Max™]

So, why do people think he is about to take off his eyepatch?

At the end he said roughly "looks like you're having fun, that's good, he is too", and it looks like he held up his sword to indicate he was talking about it having fun.

He introduced it as a he, said it is enjoying the fight, next chapter should at least be him saying the name/doing whatever happens at that point.

[The Troubadour]

My problem with this isn't that I necessarily think you're wrong...it's just that it's not good writing. It takes away the fun of having creative and inventive powers, because in the end everything just comes down to a spiritual measuring contest.

To be fair, that's not unusual for shounen anime / manga. Dragon Ball Z, Saint Seiya, Shurato... Dragon Ball didn't start out that way, but around the time they were fighting Frieza, battles were decided solely by power and heroic resolve.

Even in manga with more variety in fighting styles and battle strategies, such as Rurouni Kenshin, Fist of the North Star and similar, the deciding factor usually was how good of an overall fighter a character was - Kenshin and Kenshiro both had a technique for nearly every situation, but most of the time they won because they were more skilled and experienced than their opponents, not because of a specific technique.

Basically, not every series can be JoJo's Bizarre Adventures. :-P

[HandofShadows]

Ok, Kenpachi REALLY should have finished it off. Still a bit to in love with fighting I guess. He DOES say his swords name at the end. Nozarashi. Now what the ^%$# does that mean? :smallconfused:

[ben-zayb]

Fairly boring and predictable plot developments. Kid shouldn't even be touched by Kenpachi with his powers.

At least we now know the zanpakutou name. And a shikai next chapter, too.

[thubby]

does anyone ever wonder what the series would be like if ichigo had straight up killed byakuya like he could have those hundreds of issues ago?


Fairly boring and predictable plot developments. Kid shouldn't even be touched by Kenpachi with his powers.

At least we now know the zanpakutou name. And a shikai next chapter, too.


this kid seems mentally unstable. i would venture to guess he doesn't think "oh he's dead", he imagines stuff happening to people.

-rashi means "appearance of". the names are never quite perfect but i would hazard a guess at "masked", "faceless", or "unseen", something along those lines. also as a quible, kenpachi is always in shikai.

[Max™]

According to mangastream it means Storm Scarred.

[Primal Fury]

I read the mangastream version too, and I REALLY hope "This is makin' me hard!" is his zanpakuto's release command.
That'd be wonderful.

[Sliver]

I've read Mangastream's version this time... But usually I'm reading on Mangareader. Is anyone else having issues with them loading images? I can read other mangas, but Naruto, Bleach and One Piece? Nope!

[chainer1216]

also as a quible, kenpachi is always in shikai.

i keep seeing that, can you show me proof where its directly said?

because to me it looks like its just a standard zanpakuto with a non-standard tsuba/tsuka and a beat up blade because he's so rough with it.

[thubby]

i keep seeing that, can you show me proof where its directly said?

because to me it looks like its just a standard zanpakuto with a non-standard tsuba/tsuka and a beat up blade because he's so rough with it.

iirc it comes up when yoroichi is telling ichigo about bankai. i know in the manga she talks about it and then it pointedly cuts to kenpachi.

[chainer1216]

so, you're "quibble"ing about something that has no evidence other than the rules of storytelling?

[Max™]

I read the mangastream version too, and I REALLY hope "This is makin' me hard!" is his zanpakuto's release command.
That'd be wonderful.
Well, that or he is talking about his... other sword. >.>

[Spacewolf]

so, you're "quibble"ing about something that has no evidence other than the rules of storytelling?

kenpachi says that the damaged form is his swords true form and that there is no seal on it during his first fight with Ichigo as well.

[Max™]

Indeed, "there is no other form, this is the true form of my zanpakuto", as well as the fight with Unohana where she pointed out him subconsciously sealing and limiting his power, which is the same thing it was said Ichigo did.

[danzibr]

Well, googling Kenpachi's sword's name was a bit of a surprise.

[LaZodiac]

Well, googling Kenpachi's sword's name was a bit of a surprise.

How so? Just curious, don't remember the name to search it myself.

[maximus25]

How so? Just curious, don't remember the name to search it myself.

It just links back to the manga chapter or forums discussing it.


Also it might mean "exposed in a field" which doesn't make much sense to me.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

It just links back to the manga chapter or forums discussing it.


Also it might mean "exposed in a field" which doesn't make much sense to me.

It makes sense from a design perspective as that meaning is connected to the image of a human skull.
Given how Ken's manifest power keeps popping up as a yellow skull, it one could say that Kubo even set it up.

Edit: Given how the iconography of nozarashi symbolizes the concepts of courage and preparedness, Kubo better not give it a two-dimensional power.

[ben-zayb]

It makes sense from a design perspective as that meaning is connected to the image of a human skull.
Given how Ken's manifest power keeps popping up as a yellow skull, it one could say that Kubo even set it up.
Yeah, google images also results with mostly that skull motif thing.

One of the useful links for what Nozarashi (http://irebokuro.tumblr.com/post/21901579200/nozarashi) may be.

[Olinser]

I would also like to point out to people that 'Nozarashi' could be his release command, rather than the zanpakuto name.

In fact, considering that the release command is supposed to come BEFORE the zanpakuto name, if he's actually releasing it, then it should be the command and we'll find out the name next chapter.

Of course I acknowledge that this can be countered by the argument that it's already in perma-release form, but it is something to be aware of, nonetheless.

[chainer1216]

How so? Just curious, don't remember the name to search it myself.

well, when I googled it, i got the above mentioned thing, plus a bunch of Hentai.

[Ramza00]

Just because your shikai is in always released state does not mean you have used/unlocked your zanpaktou abilities. Also knowing your shikai name and working together with it increases your shikai power.

[Anteros]

I'm not sure whether to be concerned or not that Bleach is reaching power creep levels where characters are destroying asteroids. I guess I'll wait and see how things pan out before I decide.

[Rater202]

The way I see it, an asteroid ain't nothin' but a mountain from space.

Ichigo blew up a mountain by accident when fighting Butterflaizen(or was he Cthaizen at that point? should go back and reread).

By comparison taking out an imaginary asteroid on purpose isn't quite as impressive.

really it just means that the The Mane Characters and Local Badass are on Ichogo's level now.

Or at least, what Ichigo's level was back in Deicide. we don't actually know how strong ichigo is now that he has awakened his quincy powers, has a proper Zanpakuto instead of whatever his last one was, and has accepted that the hollow is part of him instead of a parasite.

All I know is he's better be at least Deicide strength with this build up

[LaZodiac]

I'm not sure whether to be concerned or not that Bleach is reaching power creep levels where characters are destroying asteroids. I guess I'll wait and see how things pan out before I decide.

It's Kenpachi so it's okay. He's literally been built up in his fight with Unohana to be the most badass person, period.

[ben-zayb]

Also remember that Kenpachi was already slicing buildings on his debut, and Raw Power is his forte, after all. For another captain-level comparison, Gin was shaving building blocks with his bankai, and that wasn't even the bankai's true power.

It probably just looks too over-the-top since most battles in bleach are confined in some predetermined small space like KKT, Las Noches, Xcution building, and Seireitei.

[Max™]

Gin cut a town in half, Ichigo accidentally a whole mountain vs Butterflyzen (yes, it was before he Geigerized it up), and Mugetsu roughly translates as "**** everything in that general direction" I'm pretty sure.

Taking out a meteor, much less an imagination meteor, isn't much for Kenny.

[darksolitaire]

and Mugetsu roughly translates as "**** everything in that general direction" I'm pretty sure.

Japanese is strangely specific like that. :smalltongue:

[Socratov]

Gin cut a town in half, Ichigo accidentally a whole mountain vs Butterflyzen (yes, it was before he Geigerized it up), and Mugetsu roughly translates as "**** everything in that general direction" I'm pretty sure.

Taking out a meteor, much less an imagination meteor, isn't much for Kenny.


Japanese is strangely specific like that. :smalltongue:

You sirs nearly killed me with those statements! I nearly had a fit!

[darksolitaire]

New chapter!

...Oh Zaraki. That's one huge sword :smallbiggrin:

[Silva Stormrage]

New chapter!

...Oh Zaraki. That's one huge sword :smallbiggrin:

I don't really think thats a sword anymore :smalltongue:. More of a giant axe, still very cool. I just kinda wish more stuff happened in this chapter…

[ben-zayb]

I see. We got the "Madarame weapon" (BFS) wielded by someone who can better deliver the badass blood knight hype.

[HandofShadows]

That is one huge weapon. Zaraki's face looks really scary on that one page. :smalleek:

[Rakaydos]

Just think... that's just his Shikai. :p

[Morph Bark]

Ten bucks says that sword also has the ability to spit it back out or to convert it into energy to strengthen Zaraki further.

[ben-zayb]

Ten bucks says that sword also has the ability to spit it back out or to convert it into energy to strengthen Zaraki further.So something like Ukitake except the reiatsu stays to buff him? Oh man, power like that in fiction usually ends up with the guy "swallowing more than he could digest".

[Morph Bark]

So something like Ukitake except the reiatsu stays to buff him? Oh man, power like that in fiction usually ends up with the guy "swallowing more than he could digest".

Cue Zaraki swallowing Ichigo.

[danzibr]

Weird. His sword was always in release state, but with a command it changed form. Have we seen this before?

[The Troubadour]

Weird. His sword was always in release state, but with a command it changed form. Have we seen this before?

It's entirely possible the sword WASN'T always in its released state. Zaraki could have just been mistaken about that.

[Infernally Clay]

Cue Zaraki swallowing Ichigo.

That's just grooooooooooss! Keep your yaoi fantases away from meeeee! D:

I wouldn't take the release phrase literally. It never works like that. It looked to me like Zaraki vaporised most of the meteor (with the shattered remnants falling down around him) rather than his Zanpakuto absorbing it.

I figure Nozarashi's ability might make him stronger the more excited he is. What's more important, however, is that this is still "patched" Zaraki. Once he takes that eyepatch off, he's going to be even stronger.

[Rater202]

Weird. His sword was always in release state, but with a command it changed form. Have we seen this before?

Perhaps his Zanpakuto's abillity is to change into diferant weapons based on need?

Though the command wouldn't make sense then.

Or maybe the new eye-patch lets him control his power enough to seal his Zanpakuto now, because knowing it's name shifted his shikai into it's true form.(which is too big to lug around all the time)

[ben-zayb]

Weird. His sword was always in release state, but with a command it changed form. Have we seen this before?
I wouldn't be surprised. Yumichika's zanpakutou have two forms, with one being mispronounced. If Zaraki's sword was legit (and I still don't take his word for it) in Shikai state before, it could be that the previous one was the form for his "nameless" shikai (to be precise, the one where he didn't give a crap about the name).

[Primal Fury]

It's entirely possibly Kenpachi had no idea what he was talking about. When he first got one, Ichigo's zanpakuto was way different in shape than everyone else's. It stands to reason that there would be a few out there that have non-standard sealed forms. It was still a sword, just with a different shape.

[LaZodiac]

Kenpachi just obliterated a meteor. I don't think Gremmy's in for a good time.

Also, I think this chapter implied that our little pink haired friend is in fact Kenpachi's sword.

[danzibr]

So you *can* multiquote across multiple pages. Hmm...


I wouldn't be surprised. Yumichika's zanpakutou have two forms, with one being mispronounced. If Zaraki's sword was legit (and I still don't take his word for it) in Shikai state before, it could be that the previous one was the form for his "nameless" shikai (to be precise, the one where he didn't give a crap about the name).
True, true. I forgot about Yumichika. However, he wasn't mispronouncing it iirc, he was almost insulting it.

Kenpachi just obliterated a meteor. I don't think Gremmy's in for a good time.

Also, I think this chapter implied that our little pink haired friend is in fact Kenpachi's sword.
I was thinking that, too. But... there's gotta be some complication.

What irregularities regarding zanpkautou spirits do we know at the moment? Nothing comes to mind.

[Rater202]

Kenpachi just obliterated a meteor. I don't think Gremmy's in for a good time.

Also, I think this chapter implied that our little pink haired friend is in fact Kenpachi's sword.

Can't be.

She has a Zanpakuto of her own, with a Shikai, and Kenpachi refers to his sword using male pronouns.

The flashback was probably Yachiru wondering if the sword she touched was really the same sword as that Giant Axe.

[LaZodiac]

Can't be.

She has a Zanpakuto of her own, with a Shikai, and Kenpachi refers to his sword using male pronouns.

The flashback was probably Yachiru wondering if the sword she touched was really the same sword as that Giant Axe.

Oooh, good point.

[Mato]

I figured the flash back was about neither Kenpachi or Yachiru knew their names. Since you know, that was the discussion.

Yachiru learned the name of her Zanbakto, now she sees Kenny has as well. It's a sense of learning who you are, even if you forgot who you were.

[HandofShadows]

I figured the flash back was about neither Kenpachi or Yachiru knew their names. Since you know, that was the discussion.

Yachiru learned the name of her Zanbakto, now she sees Kenny has as well. It's a sense of learning who you are, even if you forgot who you were.

Very nice read of the situation. You are to be commended.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

1) Another boring update.
2) I wonder how one would say "Ah, fresh meat." -in Japanese.

[ben-zayb]

2) I wonder how one would say "Ah, fresh meat." -in Japanese.I'm pretty sure Kenpachi saying "Itadakimasu" will have the same, if not creepier, effect.

[Anteros]

1) Another boring update.

True. I don't know how Kenpachi finally revealing his sword and blasting a comet out of the sky managed to be boring...but it was.

[thubby]

*pinches sinuses*

700 chapters. this is how kubo shows something people have been speculating about for 700 issues.

[LaZodiac]

*pinches sinuses*

700 chapters. this is how kubo shows something people have been speculating about for 700 issues.

I thought it was cool, to a degree. Like, the whole "this is a thing I haven't cut yet" is pretty awesome.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Gremmy: "What does your zanpakuto do?"
Kenpachi: "I imagine that it cuts people."

[danzibr]

http://i996.mangapanda.com/bleach/577/bleach-4907061.jpg
Man, what a sword. It's fitting of Kenpachi, though admittedly, I did secretly want a kidou zankpakutou. I suppose it still could be.

[Rater202]

http://i996.mangapanda.com/bleach/577/bleach-4907061.jpg
Man, what a sword. It's fitting of Kenpachi, though admittedly, I did secretly want a kidou zankpakutou. I suppose it still could be.

It looks kinda like Fakegetsu's second form.

...which was derived from the form of Yhwach's sword

New Theory! Kenpachi is a Shinigami/Quincy hybrid, except his Quincy and Shinigami halves are fully integrated from the start, so instead of a Yhwach ooking psuedozanpakuto spirit represent quincy power and a real zanpakuto spirit representing shinigami power, Kenpachi has one Zanpakuto spirit that represents both halves of his power(Like how the real Zangetsu represents Ichigo's Shinigami and Hollow powers)

He has no name or memeories of who he is becasue he was created as he was by Yhwach, but escaped.

[ben-zayb]

He has no name or memeories of who he is becasue he was created as he was by Yhwach, but escaped.Actually, there's the crack theory that Ywhach "chose to release that in the wild (http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/575/4)" (note Askin talking about Kenpachi on the previous statements).:smallamused:

[Anteros]

Or it could be that both were designed and drawn by the same person. Just throwing out some wild theories here. :smallbiggrin:

[Rater202]

Or it could be that both were designed and drawn by the same person. Just throwing out some wild theories here. :smallbiggrin:

Except literally every other Zanpakuto is unique.

[Anteros]

Except literally every other Zanpakuto is unique.

Not in appearance. Quite a few of them look similar to one another.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Not in appearance. Quite a few of them look similar to one another.


http://whoiwanttoworkwith.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/dave-chapelle-rfacist.jpg

:smalltongue:

Seriously though. Kubo has managed to make the power of imagination boring. I'll not be shocked if the similarity in appearance is but another symptom of no creativity.

[Infernally Clay]

Seriously though. Kubo has managed to make the power of imagination boring.

I don't understand that. What more do you really expect? He created another person, with their own personality and abilities, he killed people simply by imagining they were dead, he turned someone's bones into cookies, he duplicated himself, he imagined countless guns and missiles, he frequently imagines his wounds aren't there so it's like he was never hit at all, he imagined a freakin' meteor...

He either creates a portal to outer space and swallows Zaraki in it or creates a dimension with space-like properties and locks Zaraki in it. He even creates dozens of clones of himself and has them all blow themselves up.

I don't know what you really expect. You think it'd be more entertaining if he just imagined Zaraki was dead and it happened?

[Somensjev]

He either creates a portal to outer space and swallows Zaraki in it or creates a dimension with space-like properties and locks Zaraki in it. He even creates dozens of clones of himself and has them all blow themselves up.

have i missed a chapter? i don't remember this? :smallconfused:

[darksolitaire]

have i missed a chapter? i don't remember this? :smallconfused:

I read it as Infernally Clay's prediction, not as a chapter spoiler.

[Silva Stormrage]

I read it as Infernally Clay's prediction, not as a chapter spoiler.

http://mangadoom.com has the bleach naruto and one piece chapters for this week in japanese for some reason. In it it does look like Zaraki is being eaten by a space portal or something.

[Somensjev]

http://mangadoom.com has the bleach naruto and one piece chapters for this week in japanese for some reason. In it it does look like Zaraki is being eaten by a space portal or something.

that makes much more sense

now if only i could actually read japanese

[Slayn82]

I've just read the last few chapters and the forum thoughts. This isn't a 3.0 D&D Wizard vs. Fighter match. It's a 3.0 Wizard with WBL vs. a AD&D 2nd edition near 20th level Fighter with an inteligent weapon and the obligatory Magic Resistance (AD&D magic resistance is way better than 3.0 anti-magic, as it negates even the ontological inertia of things).

[Bobbis]

Random stupid thought that means absolutely nothing, but is a fun thing I noticed.

Kenpachi's release looks a lot like the bottom half of Zangetsu (massively enlarged and with a steel cap where it was severed). Didn't Kenpachi sever Zangetsu pretty much right there when he and Ichigo first met? Could "drink" not only imply some sort of absorbing ability, but it in fact took the partial form of the first blade that beat Kenpachi?

Or not, it's just amusing to me.

[Rater202]

Random stupid thought that means absolutely nothing, but is a fun thing I noticed.

Kenpachi's release looks a lot like the bottom half of Zangetsu (massively enlarged and with a steel cap where it was severed). Didn't Kenpachi sever Zangetsu pretty much right there when he and Ichigo first met? Could "drink" not only imply some sort of absorbing ability, but it in fact took the partial form of the first blade that beat Kenpachi?

Or not, it's just amusing to me.

Partially Copying an enemies power to make it a fair fight, and putting his own spin on it, would fit Zaraki's personality.

And of course if the other guy is too strong to beat, Zaraki can swith to an other copied Power to keep the fight interesting.(As is the case here.)

[LaZodiac]

New Chapter!: All hail Kenpachi, omnipotent Soul Reaper. He survives being surrounded in a bubble of Outer Space, survives being Death Star Exploded, and then...then...

Okay, here is my read on what happened Gremmy tried to imagine himself as stronger then Kenpachi. This is LITERALLY an impossibility, something so impossible taht simply trying to imagine it BLEW GREMMY UP. And thus he dies like a punk as expected.

Also, Kubo what the CHRIST is wrong with you. When did you start looking at super dark metal album covers for art inspiration. This is the second dude to have rps and bones and guts spilling out of him.

[HandofShadows]

New Chapter!: All hail Kenpachi, omnipotent Soul Reaper. He survives being surrounded in a bubble of Outer Space, survives being Death Star Exploded, and then...then...

Okay, here is my read on what happened Gremmy tried to imagine himself as stronger then Kenpachi. This is LITERALLY an impossibility, something so impossible taht simply trying to imagine it BLEW GREMMY UP. And thus he dies like a punk as expected.


Yeah I think you have it right. He tried to imagine something he could not imagine or at the very least control. And it ripped him apart.

[Codyage]

New Chapter!: All hail Kenpachi, omnipotent Soul Reaper. He survives being surrounded in a bubble of Outer Space, survives being Death Star Exploded, and then...then...

Okay, here is my read on what happened Gremmy tried to imagine himself as stronger then Kenpachi. This is LITERALLY an impossibility, something so impossible taht simply trying to imagine it BLEW GREMMY UP. And thus he dies like a punk as expected.

Also, Kubo what the CHRIST is wrong with you. When did you start looking at super dark metal album covers for art inspiration. This is the second dude to have rps and bones and guts spilling out of him.

I interpreted more as, he wanted to imagine himself stronger then Kenpachi, by imagining himself as a stronger Kenpachi, but because he imagined himself as Kenpachi, he killed himself, because Kenpachi wanted to beat Gremmy.

That, or because he called Kenpachi a monster, he imagined him as one, and because he wanted to be a stronger monster, he became a monster, and the monster killed him.

I think he may still be alive though, until we see Bach get a power up or comment on it, Gremmy is probably still around.

[ben-zayb]

*sighs* Anyone who's incompetent enough to waste such amazing power and had even some trouble with something of Kenpachi's power set deserves to get their ass kicked like this. (Of course, this is Kubo so that's just par for the course)


The good news is we're moving on. Whether that means last resort resurrection or next battle, it's ok just to stay away from this disgusting fight.

[danzibr]

I actually really liked this chapter.

But right... Gremmy dying and Bach getting that power back... that'll be scary for Ichigo to fight.

[Fjolnir]

I already said earlier anyone who utilizes imagination as a superpower immediately loses the second the concept of failure comes into his head, no matter how fleeting.

[Rater202]

The translation I read said something about Gremmy imagining that he was stronger than Kenpachi.

It also said that this is the first time since he was born that he wanted to win.

So, he want's to win sobadly that he isn't thinking strait when he imagins himself stronger than Kenpachi, or maybe just didn't realise just how strong that would be.

Going from Child Sized to Kenpachi tall with comparable Musclemass torn his body in pieces, and raising his spiritual power higher than Kenpachi's meant it was too strong for him to control, so when he realized his mistake he couldn't imagine himself in one piece again and died

[Hadrian_Emrys]

*snort* Lil G pulled a 'Scar' on his dumb self. I got an eye-roll and a laugh from this chapter. Moving on.

[Olinser]

The translation I read said something about Gremmy imagining that he was stronger than Kenpachi.

It also said that this is the first time since he was born that he wanted to win.

So, he want's to win sobadly that he isn't thinking strait when he imagins himself stronger than Kenpachi, or maybe just didn't realise just how strong that would be.

Going from Child Sized to Kenpachi tall with comparable Musclemass torn his body in pieces, and raising his spiritual power higher than Kenpachi's meant it was too strong for him to control, so when he realized his mistake he couldn't imagine himself in one piece again and died

I think it's more like what started to happen earlier in the fight.

His power is imagination based. It seems like he imagined something like, "what if I actually lose this fight and he kills me?" Which is why Zaraki called him an idiot.

On the whole, I was not particularly impressed with Gremy. Arguably the most broken power in the entire verse, and its given to somebody too stupid and unimaginative (heh heh :smallcool:) to properly take advantage of it.

[danzibr]

On the whole, I was not particularly impressed with Gremy. Arguably the most broken power in the entire verse, and its given to somebody too stupid and unimaginative (heh heh :smallcool:) to properly take advantage of it.
I'm sure Yhwach will be much more frightening with it (assuming Kubo doesn't forget he has it).

[Olinser]

I'm sure Yhwach will be much more frightening with it (assuming Kubo doesn't forget he has it).

There has been considerable debate about whether he actually will have their abilities.

The argument stems from the translation of his statement that 'he will reabsorb their powers'.

The question is whether he means powers as in their strength, or their powers, as in, their actual abilities.

Not knowing Japanese myself, I can't comment how the original language reads.

[KnightDisciple]

I'm generally interpreting the gory bit as Gremmy trying to imagine a way to be physically and spiritually stronger than Kenpachi, coming up with the vague idea of "He's some kind of monster!", and then being unable to consistently visualize what he wants to become. This causes random, out-of-control growth to start, at which point his mind panics and the whole thing spirals out of control.

I'm still not totally sold on how Kenpachi's sword looks, but I can't say it doesn't look like something he'd swing around. Now I'm left wondering if his Bankai is a sword as big as a skyscraper, or if it pulls a Compression like Ichigo does, and to a lesser degree Rukia and Renji do.

[Olinser]

I'm generally interpreting the gory bit as Gremmy trying to imagine a way to be physically and spiritually stronger than Kenpachi, coming up with the vague idea of "He's some kind of monster!", and then being unable to consistently visualize what he wants to become. This causes random, out-of-control growth to start, at which point his mind panics and the whole thing spirals out of control.

I'm still not totally sold on how Kenpachi's sword looks, but I can't say it doesn't look like something he'd swing around. Now I'm left wondering if his Bankai is a sword as big as a skyscraper, or if it pulls a Compression like Ichigo does, and to a lesser degree Rukia and Renji do.

For his Bankai, Zaraki is going to pull a Fighter from 8-Bit Theatre.

SWORD-CHUCKS, YO

[Rakaydos]

I totally buy the idea that his sword looks like Ichigo's did when they fought because he absorbed it's power.

[Morph Bark]

I totally buy the idea that his sword looks like Ichigo's did when they fought because he absorbed it's power.

With that tip it also resembles Ikkaku's bankai somewhat, at least in style. Who are the guys Kenpachi has fought the most/wanted to fight the most? Right.

[ben-zayb]

With that tip it also resembles Ikkaku's bankai somewhat, at least in style. Who are the guys Kenpachi has fought the most/wanted to fight the most? Right.I think it's a deliberate attempt to stick a Badass BFS on Kenpachi, since the Ikkaku fight was probably the most fun and exciting low-tier battle in HM arc and Kubo wants to recapture that raw, blood-sporty, badass normal feel.

[chainer1216]

oh ikkaku, how i miss you and your ****ty zanpakuto.

[Infernally Clay]

Actually, regarding Zaraki's Shikai... A long time ago, Isshin commented that Shinigami Captains consciously control the size of their Zanpakuto so as to prevent them all walking around with swords the size of skyscrapers. So my theory is that what we're seeing is Zaraki's Zanpakuto given the knowledge that his control over his own reiatsu kinda sucks, so he can't or won't consciously limit its size. It would probably be a lot bigger than it is if it wasn't for that eye patch of his absorbing so much of his reiatsu.

[Rater202]

Actually, regarding Zaraki's Shikai... A long time ago, Isshin commented that Shinigami Captains consciously control the size of their Zanpakuto so as to prevent them all walking around with swords the size of skyscrapers. So my theory is that what we're seeing is Zaraki's Zanpakuto given the knowledge that his control over his own reiatsu kinda sucks, so he can't or won't consciously limit its size. It would probably be a lot bigger than it is if it wasn't for that eye patch of his absorbing so much of his reiatsu.

That only applies to sealed blades(Like Ichigo's first Zanpakuto)

Shikai are more or less set in stone unless the Shinigami gains better under standing of them selves or experiances a radical evolution of powers.

I'm still thinking partiall power copy plus Shapshifting into watever best fits the job(Shapeshifting has to apply, Zaraki is always in shikai. He jsut wan't able to use it's power until now)

[Rakaydos]

(Shapeshifting has to apply, Zaraki is always in shikai. He jsut wan't able to use it's power until now)

I disagree. Whenever someone releases their zampakto to Shikai, it's always "(Verb),(Name of sword)" And then the blade looks different and has cool powers.

"Swallow, Nozarashi."

[Rater202]

I disagree. Whenever someone releases their zampakto to Shikai, it's always "(Verb),(Name of sword)" And then the blade looks different and has cool powers.

"Swallow, Nozarashi."

We got confirmation that Nozarashi was a Constant Release type when Kenpachi was first introduced. He said that his sword didn't get stronger, and later it was used as an example of Constant Release types.

Also, Nit Pick, but one of Urahara's Zanpakuto is released with the Comand "Scream Benihime" but it's energy attack is activated with a Cry of "Sing Benihime"(Note, I might have those comands backwards)

So a Zanpakuto with a secondary release comand to activate one of it's abillities is far from impossible.

[chainer1216]

why should anything zaraki said back then be taken as truth? he's kind of a moron. to him a sword is a sword, his didn't have a name, or a power, it was just a sword, and as far as he cared it didn't have any other forms, also why are you assuming shikai is a zanpacuto's true form? thats pretty odd, why not bankai? but no, thats still wrong we KNOW what a swords true form is, its a person, we learned this not that long ago.

[Rater202]

why should anything zaraki said back then be taken as truth? he's kind of a moron. to him a sword is a sword, his didn't have a name, or a power, it was just a sword, and as far as he cared it didn't have any other forms, also why are you assuming shikai is a zanpacuto's true form? thats pretty odd, why not bankai? but no, thats still wrong we KNOW what a swords true form is, its a person, we learned this not that long ago.

The fact that Zaraki's sword was used as an example when Yorouichi(Spelling?) explained what a Constant Release type was is pretty solid evidence that Zaraki's sword was in Shikai, even before he knew it's name.

Now, please tell me exactly when I refered to Shikai as the true form of a Zanpakuto. I don't remember doing so, and I can't seem to finds a place where I did.

I said that the "If Captain Class Shinigami couldn't control their Reiatsu, then they'd be swinging around Skyscrapers" thing only appies to a sealed blade(This is further, though unnecessary, evidence of Zaraki being a Constant Release type)

Remember how Ichigo's Zanpakuto was way too big before he Learned it's name, and was consequentially a very soft metal becasue it wasn't focued.

And how the soft metal thing went away after he used his (possibly false) Shikai?

That was becasue is uncontrolled power bloated the blade

[chainer1216]

right, but you did say "We got confirmation that Nozarashi was a Constant Release type when Kenpachi was first introduced. He said that his sword didn't get stronger" which was referring to, as posted earlier in this thread, the last time this was brought up, when kenchan said "there is no other form, this is the true form of my zanpakuto" and in order for that statement to back up your opinion, it needs to mean that a shikai is a zanpakuto's true form.

also:
"And how the soft metal thing went away after he used his (possibly false) Shikai?"

no, no it didn't, zaraki stabbed ichigo, in the chest, right through that sword, and then gave a speech about how ichigo needs to not let his reiatsu relax.

[Mato]

We got confirmation that Nozarashi was a Constant Release type when Kenpachi was first introduced. Prior to the dozens of story recons Tite has performed over the years so it may not hold up.

Also, Nit Pick, but one of Urahara's Zanpakuto is released with the Comand "Scream Benihime" but it's energy attack is activated with a Cry of "Sing Benihime"(Note, I might have those comands backwards)Rater rater rater, /e sigh. :smallsigh:

Benihime's command is Awaken. "Sing Benihime" is the name of the red wave of energy attack which the English dub refers to as "Scream Benihime". A simple google search glance will confirm this with little effort. The wiki further states "Kamisori (razor), Benihime", "Tsuppane (spurning), Benihime", and "Shibari (binding), Benihime" are the name of his other off screen entry attacks.

[Rater202]

Rater rater rater, /e sigh. :smallsigh:

Benihime's command is Awaken. "Sing Benihime" is the name of the red wave of energy attack which the English dub refers to as "Scream Benihime". A simple google search glance will confirm this with little effort. The wiki further states "Kamisori (razor), Benihime", "Tsuppane (spurning), Benihime", and "Shibari (binding), Benihime" are the name of his other off screen entry attacks.

You word that as though my Error in any way invalidates the point I was making.

[Mato]

You word that as though my Error in any way invalidates the point I was making.I word that in a way to remind you what was said seven years ago in a material full of recons may or may not be fractal.

Ichigo and Kenpachi were both claimed to be "constant release" types. However in the recent arc things have changed. Ichigo wasn't using a "normal" Zanbakto or his true Shiki and Kenpachi by sheer definition and recent events never had access to his Shiki until now. Now take this claim

The fact that Zaraki's sword was used as an example when Yorouichi(Spelling?) explained what a Constant Release type was is pretty solid evidence that Zaraki's sword was in Shikai, even before he knew it's name.
And glance at the Chapter 573.

http://i16.mangapanda.com/bleach/573/bleach-4850137.jpg
His sword remains identical to his introduction, same hilt, guard, chipped blade style. Except we know for a fact Kenpachi has access to and is not using his Shiki.

"Constant Release" at this point does not refer to using your Shiki, maybe you can call it improperly sealing it in a standardized near-katana form. But every non-NPC sealed Zanbakto is different. The hilts, wrapping, guards greatly very between each. Some don't even appear as a katana such as Sui-Feng's short sword or Shunsui's Daisho set. The real question to ask, is "constant release" a common and widely applicable term, or a depreciated to the point of being a meaningless term these days? Either way, please read the manga before arguing in these threads.

[danzibr]

I get the feeling Kubo just messed up.

Ichigo (let's pretend he had his real Zanpakutou all along) had a constant release Shikai, but it really was his Shikai. He did Getsuga Tenshou, his Shikai ability, while in its usual, constant release form.

But not so for Kenpachi. He went Shikai, and his sword totally changed. Unless it's secretly his Bankai.

The problem is... Ichigo's sword details are all messed up. Do we have a third example of a Zanpakutou stated to be constant release?

[Rater202]

From Bleach Wiki(Mato uses it as a source, so I get to as well)
Shikai: Its release command is Drink (呑め, nome).[161] Even before Kenpachi knew its name, Nozarashi was constantly in its released state, due instead to Kenpachi's overwhelming reiatsu forcing the release.[162] He obtained this state while still a child.[163] The blade is much longer than a standard Zanpakutō's, roughly the size of a nodachi, with a guard which extends inward from its center, similar to a shinai. The hilt is white, though most of it is wrapped in bandages, as is his sword's sheath. Despite constantly being in Shikai, Kenpachi's Zanpakutō does not grant him any additional abilities, due to their lack of communication.[164] Their disharmony leaves his Zanpakutō with little spiritual energy and lets it become easier to damage, ironically making its appearance a reflection of Kenpachi's own practice of weakening himself to fight others on an even level; it is a chipped and seemingly worn-down blade. Despite its appearance, it can easily cut through most objects: with it, Kenpachi stabs straight through Ichigo's Zanpakutō, and later slices a building in half with no apparent effort after releasing his full power. However, upon Kenpachi calling out its release command, Nozarashi transforms into a huge axe with a long, cloth-wrapped handle and a tassel attached to the top. In this form, it is powerful enough to destroy a huge meteorite with a single blow.[165]

Emphasis mine.

I'd like to point out that we have an example of a Zanpakuto having Abillities that require it's name to be said while it's already in Shikai(Benihime)

We also have an Example of a Zanpakuto being much weaker when it's Shikai is activated withthe Wrong Name(Yummichika's Shikai)

Now, what's more Llikely, that Kenpachi was seeled the whole time, somehow didn't have a Skyscraper Sized blade despite his crappy control and imense power, and that an expert Shinigami was Mistaken about it being a Constant Release type, Or that Zaraki has Always been in Shikai, but couldn't use it's abillities becasue he didn't know his blades name?

Two Options

1: Nozarashi either posses Shapeshifitng Abillities, and "Drink*" is the comand to activate them(Like "Verb* Benihime" is used to Activate Benihime's Shikai abilities)

Or

2: Not Knowing it's name led to Nozarashii having a "False shikai", Like Yumichika's blade, and since Zaraki is in a Constant Relase, he forces Nazaroshi back into that Falsh Shikai state becasue Nozarashi's true Shikai is too damn Big to hall around all the time(This would be, functionally Identical to havind a Seeled State, but the distinction is important)

[Infernally Clay]

I get the feeling Kubo just messed up.

Ichigo (let's pretend he had his real Zanpakutou all along) had a constant release Shikai, but it really was his Shikai. He did Getsuga Tenshou, his Shikai ability, while in its usual, constant release form.

But not so for Kenpachi. He went Shikai, and his sword totally changed. Unless it's secretly his Bankai.

The problem is... Ichigo's sword details are all messed up. Do we have a third example of a Zanpakutou stated to be constant release?

My interpretation is that Ichigo's Shikai and Zaraki's Shikai are the same - constant released due to their overwhelming reiatsu yet affording them no special abilities because they do not have any connection to their Zanpakuto Spirit. In Zaraki's case, he never tried to talk to his Zanpakuto Spirit for obvious reasons while Ichigo never got to connect with Zangetsu because the manifestation of his Quincy powers intentionally stopped him from doing that.

We already know Getsuga Tensho isn't Ichigo's Shikai ability since Isshin could use it with his sealed Zanpakuto and the Final Getsuga Tensho is a thing. That implies that Getsuga Tensho is a Shiba technique rather than something unique to Ichigo. So with the revelation that the manifestation we thought was Zangetsu actually wasn't, it seems Ichigo and Zaraki were in the same boat - their reiatsu and lack of control meant their Zanpakuto were always in Shikai form but they never received any power from it.

Ichigo always knew Zangetsu's name yet, due to his Quincy powers, his Shikai never did anything and even his Bankai never really did anything special. Increased speed is great an' all but considering what Bankai usually do it was kinda rubbish. Zaraki never knew Nozarashi's name, though, because he never tried talking to his Zanpakuto Spirit. He was oblivious to that aspect of his power because, of course, he was never interested in becoming stronger.

So even due to their differing situations, Zaraki and Ichigo were in the same boat all along - and now they both awoke their true Zanpakuto. The only difference is that Ichigo already knows Bankai and is presumably a lot stronger than Zaraki to boot.

edit ;; Although the interesting thing is that Zaraki's Zanpakuto is no longer constantly released. What was his incomplete Shikai is now his Zanpakuto's sealed form, whereas Ichigo's Zanpakuto is still constantly released yet has a new form. That either reinforces Ichigo's uniqueness or implies his reiatsu control still isn't good enough to seal his Zanpakuto's powers away (whereas Zaraki's obviously is).

[Rakaydos]

You're bending over backward to try and force his weapon to fit an offhand remark back in the 2nd story arc. As you said, it's for all intents and purposes a regular blade that now has a Shikai form. There's no need to go any furthur than that. Things change. this is one of them

[Rater202]

My interpretation is that Ichigo's Shikai and Zaraki's Shikai are the same - constant released due to their overwhelming reiatsu yet affording them no special abilities because they do not have any connection to their Zanpakuto Spirit. In Zaraki's case, he never tried to talk to his Zanpakuto Spirit for obvious reasons while Ichigo never got to connect with Zangetsu because the manifestation of his Quincy powers intentionally stopped him from doing that.

We already know Getsuga Tensho isn't Ichigo's Shikai ability since Isshin could use it with his sealed Zanpakuto and the Final Getsuga Tensho is a thing. That implies that Getsuga Tensho is a Shiba technique rather than something unique to Ichigo. So with the revelation that the manifestation we thought was Zangetsu actually wasn't, it seems Ichigo and Zaraki were in the same boat - their reiatsu and lack of control meant their Zanpakuto were always in Shikai form but they never received any power from it.

Ichigo always knew Zangetsu's name yet, due to his Quincy powers, his Shikai never did anything and even his Bankai never really did anything special. Increased speed is great an' all but considering what Bankai usually do it was kinda rubbish. Zaraki never knew Nozarashi's name, though, because he never tried talking to his Zanpakuto Spirit. He was oblivious to that aspect of his power because, of course, he was never interested in becoming stronger.

So even due to their differing situations, Zaraki and Ichigo were in the same boat all along - and now they both awoke their true Zanpakuto. The only difference is that Ichigo already knows Bankai and is presumably a lot stronger than Zaraki to boot.

Getsuga Tensho being a Shiba Technique doesn't make sense when one considers that at least two members of The Shiba Clan have become high Ranking Shinigami, somebody probably should have been questioning that once he actually used it and Called it by name.

IIRC, when Byakuya first heard the Name, he comented on it being an arrogant name(Heaven Pircing Moon Fang, if memeory serves), not saying "Impossible, how could a human posses the Techniques of the Shiba clan?" or somethin to that effect.

Since being a Shinigami is something that can be inherited, it might be possible that certain powers themselves can be inherited.

Also, nitpick, but The Old Man's exact words were that he was supressing Zangetsu and Channeling Ichigo's Shinigami Power through himself, So Ichigo's Fake Zanpakuto was probably a "real" Shikai and Bankai, just not Ichigo's True Shikai and Bankai

[Rater202]

You're bending over backward to try and force his weapon to fit an offhand remark back in the 2nd story arc. As you said, it's for all intents and purposes a regular blade that now has a Shikai form. There's no need to go any furthur than that. Things change. this is one of them

For all intents and purposes is not the same as is.

A horse vet is, for all intents and purposes, as good at treating a bullet wound as a doctor is.

If I get shot, I'd still rather go to a Human Hospital.

Furthermore, if a False Shikai, like Yumichika's or the form Nozarashi took before Zaraki learned it's name is still a Shikai and not a sealed form, even if Zaraki is Treating his like one.

also, how is making a rational deduction based on the information we have available to us "Bending over Backwards"?

None of our new information contradicts the information we had previous received.

[danzibr]

For all intents and purposes is not the same as is.

A horse vet is, for all intents and purposes, as good at treating a bullet wound as a doctor is.

If I get shot, I'd still rather go to a Human Hospital.

Furthermore, if a False Shikai, like Yumichika's or the form Nozarashi took before Zaraki learned it's name is still a Shikai and not a sealed form, even if Zaraki is Treating his like one.

also, how is making a rational deduction based on the information we have available to us "Bending over Backwards"?

None of our new information contradicts the information we had previous received.
I have to admit, I do not agree with that statement. A regular doctor presumably knows much more human anatomy than a horse vet.

[LaZodiac]

I have to admit, I do not agree with that statement. A regular doctor presumably knows much more human anatomy than a horse vet.

If Trauma Center has taught me anything, it's that if a doctor knows how to do something on X, they CAN do it on Y...it's just going to be stupidly risky and everyone will think he's really stupid for doing it.

[Rater202]

Let me rerphrase.

Assuming that the bullet isn't lodged in an organ or something, a Horse vet is just as good at digging it out of soft tisue and stitching up the wound.

I kept it simple for the flow of the sentence

[Mato]

From Bleach Wiki(Mato uses it as a source, so I get to as well)Difference between me and you however, I use the manga has a definitive source. The wiki, and even google as seen in my last post, are general idea citations. I have even stated the problem with taking the wiki to the letter is the editors there are just as likely to make mistakes as yo... Someone else is.

However, out of all your posts I dislike this one the best. You're still trying to black & white things, but you falsify appear to be considering things rather than citing your opinion as fact. The problem with #1 is it's a door to the face. Propose something someone will say no to and the second question has an increased likelihood of being agreed to. Absolutely no one is going to back the claim that Nozarashi is a shapeshifting sword and I very much doubt you even think that is a possibility. And #2 is the fallacy you hope people will agree to. It attempts to interlink Yumichika, Renji, and Kenpachi based off the idea a Zanpakuto can appear differently. Problem with that is Yumichika has access to his Shiki, he chooses to name it otherwise. Just the same, Renji has access to his Bankai, except Zabimaru choose to give him the wrong name. Ichigo has access to both his Shiki and Bankai, however the black Zangetsu was forcibly limiting his powers. Kenpachi did not have access to either and choose to ignore his Zanpakuto entirely. This is not at all a similar case.

You want to quote old references?

http://i33.mangapanda.com/bleach/127/bleach-1588204.jpg
http://i9.mangapanda.com/bleach/109/bleach-1588055.jpg
No name = no Shiki. Further the original claim that Kenpachi's Zanpakuto was released is mentioned ignorant man unable to communicate with his Zanbakuto with no access to his Shiki to know better. "Constant release" is, and always has been, a fan misnomer and is highly inaccurate. Sealed states are not limited to single bladed katanas (urahara's is a walking stick, beat that) and are a choice (kensei as an outcast vizard on earth kept tachikaze released so he could conceal it in his pant's pocket).

[Rater202]

Difference between me and you however, I use the manga has a definitive source. The wiki, and even google as seen in my last post, are general idea citations. I have even stated the problem with taking the wiki to the letter is the editors there are just as likely to make mistakes as yo... Someone else is.

However, out of all your posts I dislike this one the best. You're still trying to black & white things, but you falsify appear to be considering things rather than citing your opinion as fact. The problem with #1 is it's a door to the face. Propose something someone will say no to and the second question has an increased likelihood of being agreed to. Absolutely no one is going to back the claim that Nozarashi is a shapeshifting sword and I very much doubt you even think that is a possibility. And #2 is the fallacy you hope people will agree to. It attempts to interlink Yumichika, Renji, and Kenpachi based off the idea a Zanpakuto can appear differently. Problem with that is Yumichika has access to his Shiki, he chooses to name it otherwise. Just the same, Renji has access to his Bankai, except Zabimaru choose to give him the wrong name. Ichigo has access to both his Shiki and Bankai, however the black Zangetsu was forcibly limiting his powers. Kenpachi did not have access to either and choose to ignore his Zanpakuto entirely. This is not at all a similar case.

You want to quote old references?

http://i33.mangapanda.com/bleach/127/bleach-1588204.jpg
http://i9.mangapanda.com/bleach/109/bleach-1588055.jpg
No name = no Shiki. Further the original claim that Kenpachi's Zanpakuto was released is mentioned ignorant man unable to communicate with his Zanbakuto with no access to his Shiki to know better. "Constant release" is, and always has been, a fan misnomer and is highly inaccurate. Sealed states are not limited to single bladed katanas (urahara's is a walking stick, beat that) and are a choice (kensei as an outcast vizard on earth kept tachikaze released so he could conceal it in his pant's pocket).

Mato, when your entire argument revolves around assuming that the other guy doesn't know what he's talking about, and insulting him, then you've lost the debate.

This is worse than your Faulty Logic in the "Zangetsu debate" where you litterally showed the old man explaining that The Hollow was the Real Zangetsu, then said that he was saying the oppoiste of what he said and then soputed some bs about there being a third Spirit inside that we didn't see when Ichigo Manifested the Old Man and Zangetsu.

That out of the way, let's go back on track

Here, we have Zaraki's Claim about Why his Zanpakuto isn't Sealedhttp://i25.mangareader.net/bleach/109/bleach-1588057.jpg
He Specifically says that his power is too strong to Seal, from which we can logically Conclude that he has Tried to Seal His Zanpakuto, but Could not, due to that Power

Here, when Ichigo compresses his Zanpakuto to Kenpachi's, Yorouichi does not Correct him(I would assume she would know the difference between a Constant Release and a Sealed form)http://i25.mangareader.net/bleach/109/bleach-1588057.jpg

Now, note that When Isshin faught Grand Fisher, Grandfisher compared the size of Zanpakuto to a direct estimate of a Shinigami or Arrancar's power. Isshin Responded that if Captain Level Shinigami did not Constantly and consiously choose to Restrict their Powr, there Swords would be the Size of Skyscrappers. Isshin and Grand Fisher were both talking about Isshin's Sealed Sword, so we can safely conslude that Isshin was refering to Seeled swords in General(Further Supported by the Size of Ichigo's initial Zanpakuto, which was impractically Large before he learned Zangetsu's name, and IFRC both Initial Fakegetsu and True Zangetsu are smaller than that sword was)

now, lo0gically speaking, why, if Zaraki was in a Sealed state, would he, whose power is so emense and his controll of his power so s***y that he has to weare an eyepatch that constantly drains away large portion of his power becasue he can't supress it enough to hold back in a fight otherwise, why would he not be swinging around a Skyscrapper?


You've yet to counter that Argumenthttp://2.p.mpcdn.net/19531/303689/17.jpg
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/19531/303689/19.jpg

[Rakaydos]

now, lo0gically speaking, why, if Zaraki was in a Sealed state, would he, whose power is so emense and his controll of his power so s***y that he has to weare an eyepatch that constantly drains away large portion of his power becasue he can't supress it enough to hold back in a fight otherwise, why would he not be swinging around a Skyscrapper?

I disagree with your premice. Zaraki doesnt need the eyepatch to control his sword. he CHOOSES to wear the eyepatch so fights are harder. And he LIKES hard fights. A fight where he's intentionally holding back is no fun- but between the eyepatch, the bells, the one handed stance, he gives enemies enough to work with that they can challange him.

[danzibr]

I disagree with your premice. Zaraki doesnt need the eyepatch to control his sword. he CHOOSES to wear the eyepatch so fights are harder. And he LIKES hard fights. A fight where he's intentionally holding back is no fun- but between the eyepatch, the bells, the one handed stance, he gives enemies enough to work with that they can challange him.
I never realized that was the purpose of his bells.

EDIT: Wait wait wait. Okay, return to basics.

Does the phrase "constant release" mean the Zanpakutou is always in Shikai state?

If so, then Zangetsu qualifies, since it was always in its Shikai state, at least after the *very* beginning of the manga.

However, Kenpachi's sword doesn't qualify, since we just saw his Shikai, which is radically different from what it used to look like. In fact, reading what Rater quoted, it makes it looks like Kenpachi was just declaring he couldn't do Shikai or Bankai.

And also, Kenpachi said his sword had no name, which was wrong. He just didn't know it.

[Rater202]

I never realized that was the purpose of his bells.

Iirc, the bells are made of some special metal so the only people who can hear them are people who have a similar level of poer to Kenpachi.

This way, if he is forced to go all out, he can't sneak up on his opponents and thus it's still a Challenging, and thus fun, fight.

[Rakaydos]

It's not that they're special bells, it's that you have to be a special kind of warrior to notice the sound of the bells in combat in time to take advantage of them. They make things easier for his enemy, if they're good enough to realize it.
This was covered in Ichigos first fight with kemmy.

[Mato]

Mato, when your entire argument revolves around assuming that the other guy doesn't know what he's talking about, and insulting him, then you've lost the debate.

This is worse than your Faulty Logic in the "Zangetsu debate" where you litterally showed the old man explaining that The Hollow was the Real Zangetsu, then said that he was saying the oppoiste of what he said and then soputed some bs about there being a third Spirit inside that we didn't see when Ichigo Manifested the Old Man and Zangetsu.
The context of that was during the blade and me and part of my point is Ichigo had three spirits. The Shinigami and Hollow spirits merge as part of hollowfication (obviously) after the Hollow side is awakened enough to support it. Urahara states Ichigo is currently resisting hollowfication when the BZ speaks with him. BZ in turn tells him to locate his Shinigami powers or fail and turn into a hollow. So at this point, Ichigo's true Zangetsu and BZ were the only spirit's Ichigo had.

Fast forward, the Vizard talk about their inner hollows, and not Zanpakutos, challenging him for control. This relationship is about control and subjugation. Now the separate distinction of Shinigami/Hollow was reconned in the blade and me, but the method remains intact just as BZ taught Ichigo Shiki, Bankai, and Getsuga Tensho whereas subjecting IH soley allowed usage of the hollow mask.

Now fast forward to the blade and me chapters. Ichigo dubs them both Zangetsu, asking 'a' Zangetsu if that is alright. Obviously, this question would not be to his inner hollow. I put forth he isn't asking Black or White, but the original true spirit. The inner world pre-Aizen training shows us inner spirits can merge & demerge while history shows us they can cross-use each other's powers. All of them combined in turn are simply representations of Ichigo's power. In turn, this is what I meant is the third spirit. In other words, Ichigo's power is Zangetsu and both BZ and IH are false posers. When combined they both even flat out stated that originally they were one to begin with in chapter 410.

You in turn failed to grasp the concept and argued only IH is "Zangetsu".
Also, whining about you being unable to prove me wrong before as a reason I'm not making valid points now is an ad hominem attack. As you pointed out, I accept your resignation.


That out of the way, let's go back on trackThis new argument discusses Kenpachi could not properly control his power and does not fully compress his Zanpakuto to a truly nondescript katana shape. This is both true and has nothing to do with Shiki.


Does the phrase "constant release" mean the Zanpakutou is always in Shikai state?Originally fans said so and coined the misnomer. But the correct answer is no.

As previously establish by cannon material released in the same era, a Shiki requires communication and knowing your Zanpakuto's name to which Kenpachi didn't. So the term was incorrect to start with. Presently, due to recently released chapters we can confirm Kenpachi's corroded sword is simply his version of the sealed state while the giant axe is his Shiki.

Ichigo likewise is not some super unique case. As a Shinigami Representative he wielded a large sword with a red cloth wrapped hilt and leather sheath. After awakening his powers he continued to use what was left of it after Byakuya sliced it in half. Once Ichigo knew the same of his Zanpakuto he drew the single strip of black & shiny metal cleaver with the white cloth hilt/sheath that we are all familiar with. So in turn Ichigo's first sword was also an uncontrolled none-shiki blade. We also know during Ichigo's Vizard training Kensei kept his Zanpakuto released and in his pocket for at least a solid hour while hanging out on the side lines. Kensei and Ichigo's degree of self mastery imply "constant release" can be a choice, a choice based entirely on whether or not to revert your Shiki back to a sealed state.

The point being argued about is if it's a choice Kenpachi has made not to do, and clearly he has choose to reseal his blade. And if you knew anything about the character, you'd know he is not a "constant release" type of guy always choosing to limit and hold back his strength to begin with.

[Rater202]

The context of that was during the blade and me and part of my point is Ichigo had three spirits. The Shinigami and Hollow spirits merge as part of hollowfication (obviously) after the Hollow side is awakened enough to support it. Urahara states Ichigo is currently resisting hollowfication when the BZ speaks with him. BZ in turn tells him to locate his Shinigami powers or fail and turn into a hollow. So at this point, Ichigo's true Zangetsu and BZ were the only spirit's Ichigo had.

Fast forward, the Vizard talk about their inner hollows, and not Zanpakutos, challenging him for control. This relationship is about control and subjugation. Now the separate distinction of Shinigami/Hollow was reconned in the blade and me, but the method remains intact just as BZ taught Ichigo Shiki, Bankai, and Getsuga Tensho whereas subjecting IH soley allowed usage of the hollow mask.

Now fast forward to the blade and me chapters. Ichigo dubs them both Zangetsu, asking 'a' Zangetsu if that is alright. Obviously, this question would not be to his inner hollow. I put forth he isn't asking Black or White, but the original true spirit. The inner world pre-Aizen training shows us inner spirits can merge & demerge while history shows us they can cross-use each other's powers. All of them combined in turn are simply representations of Ichigo's power. In turn, this is what I meant is the third spirit. In other words, Ichigo's power is Zangetsu and both BZ and IH are false posers. When combined they both even flat out stated that originally they were one to begin with in chapter 410.

You in turn failed to grasp the concept and argued only IH is "Zangetsu".

I argued that the Holow was the Only Zangetsu becuase up intill Ichigo placed part of his Soul into the Reforged Zanpakuto, and willing the Old Man to be part of his Zanpakuto(Represented by the second, smaller blade) The Hollow was the only Real Zangetsu.

It's not a retcon,simply becasue it's been forshadowed since The Inner Hollow's first apearence.

The Old man is using it to teachIchigo Zanpakuto techniques instead of himself.

The Hollow refers to Ichigo as "partner" during this scene

After this, when Ichigo fights Kenpachi again, his Battle Aura turns into his Hollow Mask.

And the first time the hollow took over Ichigo, it was only becasue Ichigo was losing the fight, and notably, Ichigo did not turn into a Hollow as a result of the Attempt

Flash Forward to the Visored Training. Ichigo ask's where Zangetsu is, Hollow Responds, exact Quote from the official English translation, "I am Zangetsu"

From here we can conclude that the Hollow was always intended to be the "Real Zangetsu", and thus, the reveal is not a retcon, which would be if we had proof that the Old Man was the real Zangetsu, which we didn't

Also, back to the Visored for a Minute. They literally had Hollows put in there souls somehow(Possibly Aizen's Hogyoku, since he and Urahara had separate ones before Aizen stole Urahara's and merged them)

Ichigo was literally born with his Hollow(He inherited it from his mother, remember) even if it had been an ordinary Inner Hollow, nothing about the Visored's situation is anything like Ichigo's, and it is in error to asume so.

note that the Visored Talk about killing their inner Hollows. Yet Ichigo's remains after it is defeated.

Now, your "Third Spirit Logic" requires that there was a third spirit, that we never saw, that merged with Ichigo's Hollow Powers at some point, after Ichigo got them.

There is literally nothing in the Manga that supports such a blatantly false claim.

when it's said that the Fragment of White that Ichigo inherited from his mother merged with his inherited Shinigami powers, it is implied by Context that this happened shortly after his birth, whivh means that if there was an "Original Zangetsu", it would have already been hollowfied before Ichigo ever awakened his Shinigami Powers, and thus we are back to two spirits, one Quincy and one that is both Shinigami and Hollow

Literally the only diferance in the two claims is weather the SPirit Started out as a Hollow that became a Zanpakuto, or a Zanpakuto that became a Hollow. Either way, there was never a third Spirit.

Got it?


Also, whining about you being unable to prove me wrong before as a reason I'm not making valid points now is an ad hominem attack. As you pointed out, I accept your resignation.
Excuse me? I'm not whining about anything. I was mearly poinint out that you had nnot disproven any of my claims, and that when you can not do that, and you then assumie that your oponent has no knowledge of what he's arguing, and then you insult him, then you have clearly lost the argument.

This new argument discusses Kenpachi could not properly control his power and does not fully compress his Zanpakuto to a truly nondescript katana shape. This is both true and has nothing to do with Shiki.
No. A part of it has to do with the "Bloated Blade phenomena" Ishin Mentioned, that as fgar as we know only applies to sealed Zanpakuto. The bit where if Captains did not have captain level control of there captain level power, they would be swinging around skyscrapers. Zaraki has very bad control of his power. if his sword was sealed, then he's have been swinging around a skyscraper.

It's basic logic and you refuse to even acknowledged it as an argument. because you can't disprove it.

There was an other part to the Argument though, that you also conveniently ignored.

I'll repeat it.

when Ichigo learned that he was always in Shikai, he explicitly compared his Zanpakuto to Kenpachi's.

Yorouichi, who would probably know the diferance between a Shikai and a Sealed Zanpakuto, notably, did not correct him.

If he had been wrong, she most likely would have.

Can you explain that away, or are you going to ignore me and tell me to read the manga again?

[Rakaydos]

A main character makes an assumption, and Yorouichi decides not to trample his pride by correcting him? "No, not like Kempaci. Kempachi's sealed blade is as strong as your sihkai. Stronger, really, but he held back."

I dont know where you're getting that Kempachi has poor control of his killing intent. he has plenty of control of it. his skin is sharp enough to cut swords, because of it. it does exactly what he wants it to do... because it's just a sword. Not like it has a name or anthing, just a regular blade.

[Max™]

Missing another example of a very powerful sword with a well known sealed state.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101106155540/bleach/en/images/f/f3/RuujinJakka.gif

Incidentally, Kenpachi was just saying he didn't seal his sword, he didn't know how or need to, as he had never unsealed it in the first place, so this makes sense.

[Rater202]

A main character makes an assumption, and Yorouichi decides not to trample his pride by correcting him? "No, not like Kempaci. Kempachi's sealed blade is as strong as your sihkai. Stronger, really, but he held back."
It's a misconception that could have led to severe trouble down the line.

I dont know where you're getting that Kempachi has poor control of his killing intent. he has plenty of control of it. his skin is sharp enough to cut swords, because of it. it does exactly what he wants it to do... because it's just a sword. Not like it has a name or anthing, just a regular blade.

Mot his killing intent.

His raw spiritual power.

He needs to have a damn thingy on his face constantly draining a large portion of it away, otherwise he can't hold back in a fight.

That tells us that he has piss poor control of his power, if he needs to have it constantly siphoned off to restrain it.

Also, as the images I posted show, he says himself that his sword is not sealed, becasue his power is too great to be sealed.

Come on now, we've known he's had a Shikai forever, but he couldn't use it's powers becasue he didn't know it's name.

Now he learns it's name and uses it's powers, and a bunch of people are going back against established fact on Flimsy evidence.

I've already pointed out an example of a Shikai whose abilities were activated by a secondary command phrase(Benihime) and a Shikai that had a significantly weaker form because it was called with the wrong name:http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081017141121/bleach/en/images/8/80/FujiKujaku-Yumichika.jpg
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100717151840/bleach/en/images/2/26/YumichikaShikai.gif

If a Zanpakuto can be activated, at drastically reduced power, with a wrong name, then it's possible that a shikai could be activated, at even greater reduced power, without a name if it's Shinigami's raw power(Not the power of the Zanpakuto) was large enough and difficult enough to control.

The fact that he can use his real Shikai dose not mean that his false Shikai is suddenly a sealed state. At best, at best, removing his Psychological restrctions on his power improved his control enough to seal it without having a skyscraper, but that is both unlikely and would not in anyway prove that what he had before was not Shikai(and would in fact prove that it was)

[Rakaydos]

He needs to have a damn thingy on his face constantly draining a large portion of it away, otherwise he can't hold back in a fight.


Go get in a fight with an ant. But hold back, please? You want it to be an interesting fight.

that's not a matter of control, that's a matter of scale.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Keeping in mind that Kubo's rectum is effectively an expensive bag of holding used to store his plot points, I motion that the shikai matter be tabled until clarification is provided or it becomes apparent that the author has (once again) forgotten where he was going.

[danzibr]

Do we have no Bleach this week?

[sentaku]

Do we have no Bleach this week?

Nope it's Golden Week in Japan.

[Mato]

The Old man is using it to teachIchigo Zanpakuto techniques instead of himself.
Negative ghostrider, BZ taught Ichigo Getsuga Tensho and Urahara's Zanpakuto manifestation device summoned BZ. BZ used the hollow mask (sic, hollow powers, not shinigami) to save Ichigo in dire times of need and for one short training session. The only Zanpakuto technique BZ needed IH to teach was the final getsuga tensho, and by teach I mean Ichigo had to consciously choose to accept his full power from the merged manifestations in order to learn it, one can argue IH could not teach it alone either.

Flash Forward to the Visored Training. Ichigo ask's where Zangetsu is, Hollow Responds, exact Quote from the official English translation, "I am Zangetsu"
More correctly, Ichigo asks IH where Zangetsu is. IH in turn asks Ichigo if he is meaning the one Ichigo is holding or *draws blade* the one IH is holding. IH then responds " I am 'Zangetsu' ". Yes, with quotation marks. Do we need to go into English 101 to explain why they are important?

note that the Visored Talk about killing their inner Hollows. Yet Ichigo's remains after it is defeated.
Cool fanfic bro but I'm talking about Bleach. Upon entering their hide out Hiyori offers her ultimadium, join and they will teach Ichigo to seal his hollow or he can die (215). After he goes nuts, Shinji breaks his mask and tells him he'll teach him the hollow suppression technique (216). Logically, if they killed their hollow who at this point is supposed the combined entity of their shinigami and hollow powers, they would have killed their ability to use shiki, bankai, and hollow masks like Ichigo did against Aizen.

Now, your "Third Spirit Logic" requires that there was a third spirit, that we never saw, that merged with Ichigo's Hollow Powers at some point, after Ichigo got them.
Which is a provable concept. Shinigami's have their own inner avatar even if they can't hear it. Hollowfication simply merges that avatar with the newly created hollow one. Like it or not, the pure Shinigami Zangetsu existed long before Ichigo's 16th birthday. We also know BZ & IH were originally one spirit, this actually explains why Urahara's bankai device pulled BZ out. Likewise, IH's references to the two blades present and empathize name makes sense when you realize all of them are one and the same. Zangetsu is the name of the sum Ichigo's power, and the name comes from his original Shinigami spirit that even BZ was a part of until the pit.

Your claim is Ichigo was born with White and there is literally nothing in the Manga that supports such a blatantly false claim.
Excuse me? I'm not whining about anything. I was mearly poinint out that you had nnot disproven any of my claims,Already pointed out and presented the manga page that you cannot achieve Shiki without knowing your Zanpakuto's name which utterly invalidates any claims that "constant release" has anything to do with Shiki. There is also this

And #2 is the fallacy you hope people will agree to. It attempts to interlink Yumichika, Renji, and Kenpachi based off the idea a Zanpakuto can appear differently. Problem with that is Yumichika has access to his Shiki, he chooses to name it otherwise. Just the same, Renji has access to his Bankai, except Zabimaru choose to give him the wrong name. Ichigo has access to both his Shiki and Bankai, however the black Zangetsu was forcibly limiting his powers. Kenpachi did not have access to either and choose to ignore his Zanpakuto entirely. This is not at all a similar case.Which reminds you that improper shiki/bankai still requires access to those levels in order to perform it. You are treating Kenpachi as a special case that ignores both of these and yet somehow uses them as support in order to feel special about a fan term that was proven incorrect. And there is literally nothing in the Manga that supports such a blatantly false claim. Got it?



Keeping in mind that Kubo's rectum is effectively an expensive bag of holding used to store his plot points, I motion that the shikai matter be tabled until clarification is provided or it becomes apparent that the author has (once again) forgotten where he was going.I'd had my fill of pointless head smashing against the wall for a couple more weeks again.

Golden week came around again, always a sad time for me. They get a week long holiday of festivals, events, and if your draw comics for a living a couple days off. And I not only have to work all week here in the US, but I don't even get my weekly shonin :smallfrown:

[Rater202]

I just realized something.

It's been established that, after his training in the royal realm, that Ichigo may be too strong to return to the world of the living and will have to live in soul Society.

If Mayuri finds out that Ichigo is literally everything, what do you think's going to happen?

Berry-tan is gonna need a restraining order

[Kaez]

I just realized something.

It's been established that, after his training in the royal realm, that Ichigo may be too strong to return to the world of the living and will have to live in soul Society.

If Mayuri finds out that Ichigo is literally everything, what do you think's going to happen?

Berry-tan is gonna need a restraining order

Or, he just smacks him across soul society.... because I mean... he probably could. Shunpo faster than Mayuri can see and then just smack him. Eventually he'd just, I dunno... do it by reflex. "Muscle Memory"

[Socratov]

I don't think Mayuri would be that stupid. I mean, he knows the capabilities of Ichigo and while he is aching to get his hands on Ichigo for research he's not suicidal.

[Ramza00]

Question?

Could Kenpachi old shikia be a constant release shikia Zanpakuto while his reborn Zanpakuto is not a constant release Zanpakuto?

Rembember the the Zaraki Kenpachi we saw in the Soul Society arc is not the same Kenpachi. Kenapchi was originally a nameless individual living in district 80. Then he fought Yachiru Unohana, and during the battle he felt fear for the first time. Liking the fealing of fear, he unconsciously limited/sealed his spiritual power and he took on the name Zaraki (the name of district 80.)

After finding Yachiru in District 79 and naming her he took on the title of Kenpachi ("the strongest") it was originally a self bestowed title.

Since that time Unohana has helped Kenpachi remove his old unconscious limiters, he is supposedly must stronger now. While before his whole entire body and soul possed a seal and his zanpakuto did not posses a seal (thus the term "constant release") and he had no dialogue with his blade" Now Kenpachi has achieved some mastery, his body has no seal, and he has begun a dialogue with his blade learning its name and able to use the blade's initial release (thus the term "shikia").

Kenpachi still hasn't (or hasn't been shown) to achieve Bankai which means materialize his Zanpakuto, and defeating/subjugating his Zapankuto. After he subjugates his Zapankuto he can use the Zanpankuto's final release, also known as "bankai."

[danzibr]

I don't see how he has a reborn zanpakutou. In fact, before he shikai'd, it looked exactly like it had all along.

[Ramza00]

I don't see how he has a reborn zanpakutou. In fact, before he shikai'd, it looked exactly like it had all along.

Reborn is the wrong term for his Zanpakuto, that said Kenpachi from Soul Society is not the same Kenpachi from the current story line, could this not affect his Zanpakuto. Previously he had a constant release Shikai and now since his character change he has finally sealed his Zanpakuto.

[LaZodiac]

A chapter I suppose: Gremmy is genuinely the worst villain I've ever seen. He wasted ten pages on "I'm actually a brain"

Calling it now, Yachiru is Kenpachi's zanpakto. And he's going to kill the Teen Girl Squad quincies and no one will care because oh my god this was an awful ****ing chapter.

[darksolitaire]

I all ready abandoned the idea of Yachiru being Zaraki's zanpakutou since she had one of her own. But her complete disappearance when Zaraki finally releases his zanpakutou does seem to indicate that. It also mirrors Stark and Lilynette somewhat.

[ben-zayb]

No, see, Kubo managed to cross the line twice and now I'm LOLing at the reveal. Gremmy was a psion after all.Unbodied. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm)

[Socratov]

psionic sandwich, no fights, just bull****.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

There's nothing here worth spoilers folks.
Just an update so bad that I can't stop laughing.

[Max™]

Kenny's sword... deflated, much like... mine did.

[Olinser]

We're running out of Sternritter awfully fast and there are multiple Captains and Squad Zero who still haven't pulled their Bankai out.

This leads me to believe that at some point Squad Zero is, in fact, going to become antagonists, if nothing more than to provide enough fights.

[ben-zayb]

We're running out of Sternritter awfully fast and there are multiple Captains and Squad Zero who still haven't pulled their Bankai out.

This leads me to believe that at some point Squad Zero is, in fact, going to become antagonists, if nothing more than to provide enough fights.
Or Bach goes Aizen-mode on all captains. *shrug* Given the story of SR powers, that doesn't seem to be too farfetched.

[Rater202]

Perhaps Yhwach wanted aizen and the other Extreme War potentials specifically so he could take their souls and power? specifically so he could "Go Aizen?"

[Mato]

Anyone else feel like the recent issue was an explanation in progress?
Tite: ...And he blows up.
Reader: It makes sense. As Aizen has explained and shown us, combat is based on reiatsu and even clever 'magical' tricks are limited or crushed by it. Gremmy attempted to kaio-ken up his power level and killed him self. I just foolishly expected more out of you.
Tite: More lameness? I can do that. Gremmy imagined having Kenpachi's power perfectly perfect. But like Goku told Captain Ginyu, you need to unite mind & body for full power and Gremmy didn't understand this. No wait, he did understand this, that's just an excuse. See, he failed to perfectly imagine being perfectly perfect and like so his imagination failed and his new body, which was just an extension of his imagination, that he imagined fell apart. No wait, he never had a body to begin with so his imagination imagined a perfectly perfect imagination and like this whole thing is just a euphemism for something deeper.
Reader: Huh?
Tite: Yachiru is missing! Boom! Four Sternritters appear!
:sigh:

[LaZodiac]

Anyone else feel like the recent issue was an explanation in progress?
Tite: ...And he blows up.
Reader: It makes sense. As Aizen has explained and shown us, combat is based on reiatsu and even clever 'magical' tricks are limited or crushed by it. Gremmy attempted to kaio-ken up his power level and killed him self. I just foolishly expected more out of you.
Tite: More lameness? I can do that. Gremmy imagined having Kenpachi's power perfectly perfect. But like Goku told Captain Ginyu, you need to unite mind & body for full power and Gremmy didn't understand this. No wait, he did understand this, that's just an excuse. See, he failed to perfectly imagine being perfectly perfect and like so his imagination failed and his new body, which was just an extension of his imagination, that he imagined fell apart. No wait, he never had a body to begin with so his imagination imagined a perfectly perfect imagination and like this whole thing is just a euphemism for something deeper.
Reader: Huh?
Tite: Yachiru is missing! Boom! Four Sternritters appear!
:sigh:


My understanding of why Gremmy exploded is because...as I said last chapter, ONLY KENPACHI can be as strong as Kenpachi. It's LITERALLY impossible, so much so that you can not even imagine it. He succeeded in imagining what that power might be like, but he couldn't imagine a body powerful enough for it, because that's literally impossible, and thus he exploded.

Then lol he's a brain in a jar happened. Bleach is so...weird and bad.

[danzibr]

So... he should have imagined himself as Kenpachi, not just as strong as Kenpachi.

[thubby]

oh the violence he is about to inflict on those women.

seriously. we now have a *worried* kenpachi, and something is in his way.

[ryuplaneswalker]

oh the violence he is about to inflict on those women.

seriously. we now have a *worried* kenpachi, and something is in his way.

Odds on him going straight to kill mode and unleashing Bankai.

[chainer1216]

So... he should have imagined himself as Kenpachi, not just as strong as Kenpachi.

maybe, but that didn't exactly help the last guy who did that.

[danzibr]

Why is this thread tagged with TV?

So in general, to release their shikai, a shinigami has to say, "<insert verb here>, <insert zanpakutou name here>." Looking back at the previous few chapters, Kenpachi says swallow, then on the next page says Nozarashi, *then* we see Yachiru. At first I was thinking she either became his shikai or something, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Kidnapped, maybe.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Pinky is missing and the malice minions appear.
Kubo isn't known plots that can confuse the Kenpachi for long, so I can only assume the two are related.

[Sliver]

When Jar-for-Brains said that he is going to imagine a world without imagination and then we instantly move to Yachiru missing, my first thought was that Kenpachi imagined her into existence and Jars cancelled her out.

[Olinser]

Given that Giselle is Sternritter 'Z' and Bambietta was telling her to get away that she wasn't dead yet, I'm assuming that the 'Z' stands for 'Zombie' and Zombie Bambietta is about to make an appearance.

[danzibr]

I wonder how Yamamoto was able to beat Yhwach so long ago, considering how hard he got owned this last time. Unless he got far stronger.

[Olinser]

I wonder how Yamamoto was able to beat Yhwach so long ago, considering how hard he got owned this last time. Unless he got far stronger.

Let see.

1) There is no concrete info that the original fight was 1v1, or that Yamamoto was even the one that beat him. I find it highly likely that Unohana, or a group of original Captains, actually downed him the first time.

2) Yhwach commented that Yamamoto had gotten weaker since the war.

3) Yamamoto was missing an arm.

4) Yamamoto had just gotten his Bankai sealed (on the whole, Shinigami Bankai seem to add significantly more power than Sternritter Vollstandig), in addition to using a pretty decent amount of power using it on Lloyd Royd earlier.

[Durkoala]

At a guess, it looked like Ywach sucker-punched him. He stole Yama's bankai and then attacked before the old man could recover.

I love the moments when Bleach decides that it doesn't want to use the Dragonball Z formula today and someone is going to get hurt by someone below their level (or in that case, where a fight between two near equals is suddenly over).

Edit: Damn.
Also, what that guy said.

[The Troubadour]

(...) in addition to using a pretty decent amount of power using it on Lloyd Royd earlier.

This is particularly significant, I think. Yhwach even taunted Yamamoto with something to that effect.

[HandofShadows]

New chapter is up

Those women are really monsters. Kenpachi is down since he is still weakened from the earlier battle and the memebers of Squad 11 are getting taken out in large numbers. So who is arriving on the last page? Ichigo or someone else? A bit of a skull motief in the explosion? :smallconfused:

[ben-zayb]

Haha! Poor Bambietta.Sort of like aaroniero, but I'll take it due to more awesome imagery. <3 Liltotto

Meninas have the most original and creative ability so far... i mean, power, right? Geselle's infected blood ability reminded me of an old shounen character...from YYH i think bloodbending.

[danzibr]

Kenpachi can't move? Suuuuure. I bet he'll be able to move his hand enough to take off that eye patch.

And think it's Ichigo?

[Somensjev]

it has to be ichigo doesn't it? unless some of squad 0 are coming to fight? everyone else from the sky has already arrived, and we all know a kenpachi and ichigo tag-team fight would look pretty cool

also, i give this group of girls a generous 4 chapters before they're beaten into submission

[ben-zayb]

Ginjo (skull-motif) and co.

[Somensjev]

Ginjo (skull-motif) and co.

i thought of that, but i thought it'd be too mean

then again, we are reading bleach :smallsigh:

[darksolitaire]

New chapter makes me think that Kubo is starting to take influence from Oda. His powers were never as silly before this arc.

[The Troubadour]

New chapter makes me think that Kubo is starting to take influence from Oda. His powers were never as silly before this arc.

Not silly - creepy. Which is something Kubo has always done well, even with simple Hollows way back in the first arc.

[Olinser]

Given that Giselle is Sternritter 'Z' and Bambietta was telling her to get away that she wasn't dead yet, I'm assuming that the 'Z' stands for 'Zombie' and Zombie Bambietta is about to make an appearance.

I SO CALLED IT.

Now just stand by for Zombie Bambietta to jump out next chapter.

[LaZodiac]

This chapter actually bothers me. Kenpachi shouldn't be as tired as he is. I'm sure it'll be fine next chapter, but he's overwhelmingly powerful at this point. He's literally unimaginably powerful. We'll see where this goes.

[Snarky1]

Let see.

1) There is no concrete info that the original fight was 1v1, or that Yamamoto was even the one that beat him. I find it highly likely that Unohana, or a group of original Captains, actually downed him the first time.

2) Yhwach commented that Yamamoto had gotten weaker since the war.

3) Yamamoto was missing an arm.

4) Yamamoto had just gotten his Bankai sealed (on the whole, Shinigami Bankai seem to add significantly more power than Sternritter Vollstandig), in addition to using a pretty decent amount of power using it on Lloyd Royd earlier.Unohana had nothing to do with it. Not only is she weaker than Yamamoto (why do you think he was able to control her?), she was never mentioned by any of the Sternritter and doesn't seem to even be considered a war potential. Furthermore, Mayuri specifically stated that it was Yama's fault that Yhwach was not already dead, which implies that the fight was 1v1. If not, there would have been others he could lay the blame on as well.

Yamamoto was still stronger than Yhwach while using his Bankai. That's why he started the fight off by stealing it, he was not confident in his ability to win with Yamamoto using it.

[danzibr]

This chapter actually bothers me. Kenpachi shouldn't be as tired as he is. I'm sure it'll be fine next chapter, but he's overwhelmingly powerful at this point. He's literally unimaginably powerful. We'll see where this goes.
Just waiting for that eyepatch to come off.

[chainer1216]

the thunderbolt and the power have to be the two lamest power to get.

so, i wonder who or what the skullplosion is, i mean, the skull motif and the fact that its in the sky make me want to say its ichigo, but this is bleach, and more than that, a shonen, male protag can't fight women.

[crack theory time] what if its unohana back from the dead thanks to her own bankai?!?!?!?!?!

[Mato]

so, i wonder who or what the skullplosion is, i mean, the skull motif and the fact that its in the sky make me want to say its ichigo, but this is bleach, and more than that, a shonen, male protag can't fight women.It's Yachiru's bankai. :)

[Rakaydos]

A long shot, but it might be Nell, too.

[Olinser]

Unohana had nothing to do with it. Not only is she weaker than Yamamoto (why do you think he was able to control her?), she was never mentioned by any of the Sternritter and doesn't seem to even be considered a war potential. Furthermore, Mayuri specifically stated that it was Yama's fault that Yhwach was not already dead, which implies that the fight was 1v1. If not, there would have been others he could lay the blame on as well.

Yamamoto was still stronger than Yhwach while using his Bankai. That's why he started the fight off by stealing it, he was not confident in his ability to win with Yamamoto using it.

None of them have mentioned other Captains that were most certainly present for the war either (Zanpakuto maker at a minimum). It doesn't mean they weren't there. Heck, she hasn't even been in contact with any of the Sternritter yet, so they didn't have a CHANCE to recognize her.

And you base your claim that she was weaker than Yamamoto on what, exactly? Her entire thing was that she didn't have anybody to fight because she was too powerful - until Zaraki came along. Then she decided to do her healer thing to wait for him. Not really surprised she let Yamamoto run the show.

You also have no idea whether she is considered a war potential, seeing as we have only gotten confirmation of 3 of the 5 - Zaraki, Ichigo, and Aizen (and Yamamoto being confirmed to NOT be one). There are 2 other unknowns. A considerable portion of the fanbase believes the last 2 to be Unohana and Orihime (Orihime being a special war potential is pretty much considered canon until proven otherwise at this point).

[Morph Bark]

Story cliche logic says it has to be a female to arrive now. Since Yachiru had the limelight for a bit before and is prolly too weak against them anyway, it's prolly Nell or a woman from Squad Zero. Orihime is unlikely.


I SO CALLED IT.

Now just stand by for Zombie Bambietta to jump out next chapter.

Could be if she can also reanimate the dead, rather than just control the living as if they were without free will--zombies are quite different across media.

[Infernally Clay]

If it's not Yachiru coming to Zaraki's side, it's Ichigo. That skull motif is a lot like Ichigo's after all and we're still waiting for him to show up.


Unohana had nothing to do with it. Not only is she weaker than Yamamoto (why do you think he was able to control her?), she was never mentioned by any of the Sternritter and doesn't seem to even be considered a war potential. Furthermore, Mayuri specifically stated that it was Yama's fault that Yhwach was not already dead, which implies that the fight was 1v1. If not, there would have been others he could lay the blame on as well.

Actually, Yamamoto bought Unohana's loyalty. I recall them saying he paid her quite a lot to join the original Gotei 13, which he gathered specifically to fight the Quincy. It is entirely possible that Yamamoto didn't fight Yhwach alone and Mayuri's statement only implies Yamamoto was either too weak to finish Yhwach off or too compassionate (either choosing to not kill Yhwach or choosing to save someone else, allowing him to escape). The reason Unohana presumably wasn't a War Potential is the same Yamamoto wasn't - she became too soft. How many centuries ago did she give up the Kenpachi name? When was the last time she even fought?

[Olinser]

If it's not Yachiru coming to Zaraki's side, it's Ichigo. That skull motif is a lot like Ichigo's after all and we're still waiting for him to show up.



Actually, Yamamoto bought Unohana's loyalty. I recall them saying he paid her quite a lot to join the original Gotei 13, which he gathered specifically to fight the Quincy. It is entirely possible that Yamamoto didn't fight Yhwach alone and Mayuri's statement only implies Yamamoto was either too weak to finish Yhwach off or too compassionate (either choosing to not kill Yhwach or choosing to save someone else, allowing him to escape). The reason Unohana presumably wasn't a War Potential is the same Yamamoto wasn't - she became too soft. How many centuries ago did she give up the Kenpachi name? When was the last time she even fought?

I'll repeat - we have no idea whether Unohana is/is not a war potiential. We have concrete confirmation of 3 - Zaraki, Ichigo, Aizen, and confirmation that Yamamoto was NOT one.

One of the slots is almost certainly reserved for Orihime, but that still leaves 1 slot open.

It could certainly be a lot of people (Urahara, Isshin, one of the Squad Zero captains, heck it might be Ishida), but it could just as easily be Unohana.


As for who's appearing.... could be a lot of people. I agree that most likely is Ichigo, given that Rukia and Renji are already here, he probably went for the biggest concentration of Sternritter he could find.

It is also possible that it is Unohana (until we see a body death isn't confirmed and since it's Bleach maybe not even then), or one of the Squad Zero captains.

[Infernally Clay]

If I had to list my theorised remaining War Potentials, they'd be Uryu and Harribel. Uryu is obvious, yet Harribel is on my list because she's the strongest Arrancar still alive and we've seen both what the Vandenreich do to Arrancar and what Hollow reiatsu does to Quincy - plus she proved herself stronger than Bankai-wielding Captains, which even Stern Ritter have trouble with. The fact she was captured so quickly implies to me that Yhwach didn't intend to take any chances and we have no idea how many Quincy she took down before she was beaten.

[Olinser]

If I had to list my theorised remaining War Potentials, they'd be Uryu and Harribel. Uryu is obvious, yet Harribel is on my list because she's the strongest Arrancar still alive and we've seen both what the Vandenreich do to Arrancar and what Hollow reiatsu does to Quincy - plus she proved herself stronger than Bankai-wielding Captains, which even Stern Ritter have trouble with. The fact she was captured so quickly implies to me that Yhwach didn't intend to take any chances and we have no idea how many Quincy she took down before she was beaten.

Extremely doubt it was Harribel.

Firstly, she wasn't stronger than Bankai-weilding captains. She fighting evenly (arguably losing) to the weakest Captain by himself, before his post-Aizen training. She's the strongest alive mostly because Starrk and Barragan are both dead, and since it seems to be generally accepted that the person that showed up and finished Opie was Grimjow, she may not even be even the strongest Arrancar anymore.