Monk Ranger help needed

[Vec]

Hello every one.

I need help on building an elf Monk/Ranger in 4e that will focus on attacking from ranged and uses his unarmed strikes to shift and move around when he is caught in melee.

I would appreciate any advance on stats, feats and anything else.

Thank you all for your time.

[NecroRebel]

The best way to do this would be to simply build a mostly-standard Ranger who takes a Monk multiclass feat and possibly the Monastic Adept feat for a free Monk at-will power. Ranger powers are more than adequate for shifting and moving around if caught in melee, and if you're focusing on ranged attacks you're only going to be less effective if you try to make yourself capable of melee attacks also.

It is possible to make a character who is equally capable of fighting at range and in melee, but this isn't really the way to do it.

Anyway, as such standard ranged Ranger advice applies: max out Dex, take Twin Strike as one of your at-wills, make your other powers either make multiple attacks on one target or use non-standard attacks as much as possible, and get as many static damage bonuses as you can, and you'll be effective.

[Epinephrine]

Well, one advantage to mixing monk with another striker is that you can use the movement parts of monk powers on the turns that you use the other class' striker feature, so you certainly can add some mobility to a ranger.

Fallen Needle is a nice at-will in that regard, in that the movement power it offers is a minor action that can move or shift. Being able to minor action shift is a solid way to get away from melee, and then you've still got a move and standard. I'll poke around with it later, it seems like I'm getting an error loading the builder.

[Kurald Galain]

The best way to do this would be to simply build a mostly-standard Ranger who takes a Monk multiclass feat and possibly the Monastic Adept feat for a free Monk at-will power. Ranger powers are more than adequate for shifting and moving around if caught in melee, and if you're focusing on ranged attacks you're only going to be less effective if you try to make yourself capable of melee attacks also.

I would like to echo this.

Rangers are more than capable of "shifting and moving around when he is caught in melee", so your character idea doesn't really require a monk, let alone a hybrid.

[Epinephrine]

Since others are suggesting not hybrid, I'll say go ahead and hybrid.

What do you lose? Not much. You're still Dex-based, so you keep Dex-based AC. Wisdom is a tolerable secondary for both classes, so your secondaries line up You lose some armour proficiencies or the bonus AC that a monk enjoys, so you'll probably spend a feat to regain that. Since monks can use any weapon they are proficient with as an implement, you don't need to worry about carrying two items to do the job - you can make monk attacks with a bow.
You do lose Prime Shot and a combat style, and you do lose the unarmed combat from the monk (so no huge punches). In return you get to pick from both classes powers, and you can choose a monk at-will that may allow you to use a mobility power every round at-will along with a ranger attack power. It's not the worst trade ever.

Rangers are already very solid damage dealers; what don't they do? Well, they don't do control so well, and they don't fire off many blasts. Monks can do both those things. If you stick to ranger powers for single target striking, and a few monk powers that are close blasts (using the bow as an implement) you get a ranger who can fight from a range, and when he wants to can move up close and let a spray of arrows out on all the foes in an area.
The ranger gets his first blast 3 attack as a 9th level daily; a monk can have a blast 3 at first level that inflicts effects and is per encounter.

Now, is he "using unarmed strikes to move and shift?", not really, he's using his bow as an implement to do something similar; either as a weapon itself or by rapid firing arrows, but it serves the same purpose. Here's a quick try at a mid-heroic monk|ranger

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 7
Elf, Monk/Ranger
Monastic Tradition (Hybrid) Option: Centered Breath (Hybrid)
Hybrid Monk Option: Hybrid Monk Fortitude
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Hybrid Talent Option: Ranger Armor Proficiency

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 10, DEX 21, INT 10, WIS 17, CHA 8

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 10, DEX 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 8


AC: 22 Fort: 16 Ref: 19 Will: 17
HP: 52 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Athletics +7, Perception +13, Stealth +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +3, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +2, Heal +6, History +3, Insight +6, Intimidate +2, Nature +8, Religion +3, Streetwise +2, Thievery +7

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Elf Racial Power: Elven Accuracy
Monk Feature: Centered Flurry of Blows
Hunter's Quarry Power: Hunter's Quarry
Monk Attack 1: Fallen Needle
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Monk Attack 1: Call up the Savage Wind
Monk Attack 1: Steel Avalanche
Monk Utility 2: Deflect Arrow
Ranger Attack 3: Disruptive Strike
Ranger Attack 5: Spitting-Cobra Stance
Ranger Utility 6: Weave Through the Fray
Ranger Attack 7: Biting Volley

FEATS
Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Bow Expertise
Level 4: Silvery Glow
Level 6: Distant Advantage

ITEMS
Frost Longbow +2 x1
Bracers of Archery (heroic tier) x1
Boots of the Fencing Master x1
Magic Hide Armor +1 x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier) x1

His at-will monk attack is paired with a movement ability to either move 3 or shift 1 as a minor action, at will. That should easily allow getting away from enemies. His single target damage is largely twin strike, using a frost bow allows the slightly better Silvery Glow for a feat bonus (and opens up frost cheese later); his monk powers benefit from the item bonus from the armbands as he's using a bow as his implement. He can deflect an arrow using a monk utility, and the ranger utility moves him away from danger. His monk encounter and daily are both blast 3, one re-positions enemies, the other allows a shift. I think it hits the flavour you are looking for, and while it isn't a stronger striker than either, it does have some versatility.

The minor action shift from Fallen Needle will be useful to get +1 AC and Reflex from the Boots of the Fencing Master on rounds when you can't manage to use your move action to shift (or if you need some room, you've got the minor action shift away, move action for distance, standard to shoot him).
====== End ======

I think the general advice would be, build using the ranger powers for multi-attacks and off-turn attacks, and use the monk powers for area damage and control. Since the monk blast powers ignore concealment, they're also a decent option for fighting invisible foes.

[Elkreeal]

Is there been a consensus on the movement technique of Fallen Needle? Is it a Interrupt or a Minor? Even the fluff of the power seems to indicate that it's rightfully an immediate interrupt, and not a minor action.

At level 5 I wouldn't recommend that daily. Either Flying Steel or Sure Shot would be better. Flying Steel for a character who dabbles in melee powers seems like a sure way to do damage more often than with Spitting Cobra Stance, has it will be harder to get cover from you.

Plus Invigorating Stride at level 2 is a must for someone who wants to shift and has that high of a Wis score.

[Kurald Galain]

Is there been a consensus on the movement technique of Fallen Needle? Is it a Interrupt or a Minor?
The power states it is a minor action, therefore it is a minor action. Fluff is not relevant to the question.

[Elkreeal]

The power states it is a minor action, therefore it is a minor action. Fluff is not relevant to the question.
Urg.. the power also states it's a Immediate interrupt in some instances. The fluff was just a side note, it enforces the Immediate Interrupt instances as the correct ones.

If you had no idea what I was aiming at why even bother?

[Kurald Galain]

If you had no idea what I was aiming at why even bother?
I know very well what you're aiming at, but that doesn't change the fact that this power is a minor action, not an interrupt.

[Vec]

I feel im getting a lot of negatives on mixing ranger and monk. Is there a way to use a bow as a monk, zen archery or something?

[GPuzzle]

Put your bow as your Ki Focus.

[Elkreeal]

I know very well what you're aiming at, but that doesn't change the fact that this power is a minor action, not an interrupt.

When did WoTC clarify the mistake? That was my question, when did they rule which one was the correct version? I'm not even being sarcastic, your response clarified nothing on whether there was finally some kind of errata on the power to clarify the correct instance. It was just "It says it's a minor, it's a minor". I didn't even know it was a minor until recently, on the CB I've always seen it as I. Interrupt, only on the magazine does it say it's a Minor.

[Elkreeal]

I feel im getting a lot of negatives on mixing ranger and monk. Is there a way to use a bow as a monk, zen archery or something?

It's not a bad choice, the build Epinephrine posted is very viable, I would just change the utility 2, and consequently utility 6 and daily 5, but it's a matter of preference. You can get a lot from that combination, including increased mobility, I hybrid'd a Monk|Rogue and It worked perfectly, for example.

[Yakk]

Monks hybrid poorly.

You have no armor proficiency. To gain unarmed attacks, you have to burn your hybrid talent feat. To gain unarmored AC, you have to burn your hybrid talent feat. So you cannot have both.

In order to be able to fight with your fists as weapons, you need to wear armor. In order to get acceptable AC without armor, you need to burn hybrid talent and then pick up unarmored agility.

What you get out of it is access to some full discipline at-wills (and their movement techniques) and ki focus proficiency.

Ki focus proficiency can be purchased for a single MC feat. And the armor of your other class is free if you aren't Hybriding. So you really don't gain much.

On the other hand, Rangers hybrid well, as they lose only a little of value (there is an awesome set of prime shot feats, basically).

The melee/ranged split is annoying, as you have to have an encounter monk attack power and daily power, which are unlikely to be usable at range like a ranger-striker wants to be at.

The result? If you do way more optimization than the rest of your party, you can make a viable monk/ranger hybrid. The costs are modest.

[Daracaex]

To gain unarmed attacks, you have to burn your hybrid talent feat. To gain unarmored AC, you have to burn your hybrid talent feat. So you cannot have both.

You can take Hybrid Talent multiple times.

[NecroRebel]

You can take Hybrid Talent multiple times.

Only if you forgo taking a paragon path, and that is almost never worth it. You can't take a feat more than once unless something specifically says you can. The Hybrid Talent feat does not say that you can take it twice, so you can't take it twice, but paragon hybridizing grants it as a bonus feat even if you already have it. This is the only way that I am aware of to take Hybrid Talent multiple times, and then only twice.

[Daracaex]

You can get it as a bonus, yes, but every other variable feat effect like that (weapon/implement expertise, armor expertise, etc) that offers a choice allows you to take it multiple times as long as you don't select the same option twice. Also, it seems to me that it can be interpreted that you can just take it twice. Also also, as a DM, I don't think I would have any problem allowing it even if the official stance is one-time-only.

[NecroRebel]

You can get it as a bonus, yes, but every other variable feat effect like that (weapon/implement expertise, armor expertise, etc) that offers a choice allows you to take it multiple times as long as you don't select the same option twice.

All of those have a specific special clause that states that you can them multiple times. Hybrid Talent does not. Because Hybrid Talent does not have such a special clause, the rules on it fall to the default feat rules, namely that you cannot take the same feat more than once. Therefore, you cannot take Hybrid Talent more than once.


Also, it seems to me that it can be interpreted that you can just take it twice.

I don't see how it can be interpreted that way. There's a limitation on gaining it twice (you can't take the same option twice), but that doesn't override the general rule. The Hybrid Paragon rules override the general rule on taking feats more than once, but Hybrid Talent itself doesn't.


Also also, as a DM, I don't think I would have any problem allowing it even if the official stance is one-time-only.

That would be a house rule. Unless a specific house rule is said to be in play, it's best to assume that none are, and advice that is based on a house rule that isn't in play is worthless, so it's best to not give advice based on house rules.

[Kurald Galain]

You can take Hybrid Talent multiple times.
No, you can't; Necro is correct.


Even so, that doesn't change the fact that a ranger gains very little by hybriding into monk (ask Yakk said) because you could instead use your feats to become a better ranger.

[Inevitability]

However, Yakk made it sound like a monk NEEDS his unarmed strike to be good. This is not true. You can be a hybrid monk with piddly 1d4-1 unarmed strikes and still deal as much damage as other monks do.

So burn your hybrid talent on ranger armor proficiency and you'll have an usable build, but it's not the most optimized thing possible.

[Daracaex]

I don't see how it can be interpreted that way.

Well, I interpreted it that way for years, so I'd like to think that that's proof. :smalltongue:

[GPuzzle]

Well, I interpreted it that way for years, so I'd like to think that that's proof. :smalltongue:

If you Paragon Hybrid, you take it two times.
Otherwise, only once.

[Epinephrine]

However, Yakk made it sound like a monk NEEDS his unarmed strike to be good. This is not true. You can be a hybrid monk with piddly 1d4-1 unarmed strikes and still deal as much damage as other monks do.

So burn your hybrid talent on ranger armor proficiency and you'll have an usable build, but it's not the most optimized thing possible.

Exactly - unarmed strike is not exactly the defining point of a monk; all their powers deal damage like any implement power (independent of weapon) and the ranger uses a weapon (which the monk can use as an implement).


Even so, that doesn't change the fact that a ranger gains very little by hybriding into monk (ask Yakk said) because you could instead use your feats to become a better ranger.
You certainly gain things, it's just whether they are useful for your role. If you want a few blast powers as you lack a controller/area striker to deliver these, monks get quite a few at low levels. And they do get some nice movement powers. These don't directly affect the ranger's ability to shoot arrows, but they're not bad - if it's what you need from your ranger.

[Yakk]

The monk doesn't need unarmed strike to be good, they need unarmed strike to feel like a monk.

Now, fighting in melee with your bow is fun (which is what monk|rangers are likely to do) is amusing (using the bow as an implement).

I'm bitter that they took away the mediocre feature (+3/d8 fists) and made it cost a hybrid talent when it is pretty much nothing but flavor (in most situations).

[Inevitability]

The monk doesn't need unarmed strike to be good, they need unarmed strike to feel like a monk.

Now, fighting in melee with your bow is fun (which is what monk|rangers are likely to do) is amusing (using the bow as an implement).

I'm bitter that they took away the mediocre feature (+3/d8 fists) and made it cost a hybrid talent when it is pretty much nothing but flavor (in most situations).

First, refluff as you please. You aren't holding a bow, you are just punching the enemies with your fists. You aren't shooting arrows, you are sending waves of pure psionic energy at the enemy.

Second, you are absolutely right on the matter of the better unarmed strikes. It looks like WOTC tried to fix it by making monk fists available through multiclassing, but why didn't they errata hybrid monks?