Familicide (SPOILERS)

[Gallifreyman]

So....how does Familicide WORK, exactly? It kills you, then everyone related to you, then everyone related to them. That's why V was devastated when he/she/it found the Draketooth mural and realized he'd effectively committed genocide on millions of humans who were related to those the Draketooths had mated with. But....what I don't get is, why didn't the spell kill all humans, everywhere? I mean, it would never stop, right? So it kills a family, and everyone related to them, and everyone related to them, and everyone related to THEM, and so forth, and so forth, and...wouldn't it effectively be not Familicide, but Xenocide? The destruction, or at least decimation, of the human race?

[Loreweaver15]

Nah, it's a two-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon thing. If you used Familicide on Kevin Bacon, it'd kill everyone he's directly related to--mother, father, siblings, children, etc--all the way on up the line through grandparents and stuff. Then it'd come back down the line, and for everyone that it killed, it would check to see if there was anybody who was directly related to them.

So, my half-sister would die, and my half-sister's half-brother who shared no blood with me, but his half-sibling who shared no blood with her or me would be just fine.

[Duck999]

I believe it just works straight up and down the family tree. It does not go up, to the side, then down. If your great ancestor was alive, it would kill them, but not all their descendents, just your ancestor and children, grandchildren, etc. So it wouldn't kill everyone.

[Gallifreyman]

Well, yes, but it killed the entire Draketooth clan. And anyone they'd had children with, because they shared blood with their children. Through that, it killed all of the Draketooth's spouse's families, and all of THEIR families. So....again, why isn't every human in OotS dead right now?

[Loreweaver15]

Well, yes, but it killed the entire Draketooth clan. And anyone they'd had children with, because they shared blood with their children. Through that, it killed all of the Draketooth's spouse's families, and all of THEIR families. So....again, why isn't every human in OotS dead right now?

Girard shared the blood of the dragon. Thus, every Draketooth died. Then, everyone directly related to a member of the Draketooth clan died. That'd be the families across the Western Continent. It did not take the additional third step that you mentioned.

[Keltest]

Well, yes, but it killed the entire Draketooth clan. And anyone they'd had children with, because they shared blood with their children. Through that, it killed all of the Draketooth's spouse's families, and all of THEIR families. So....again, why isn't every human in OotS dead right now?

Because not everybody is linked like that I guess. After a couple generations the bloodlines stop, and there are plenty of people who never had children, or were orphaned.

[Porthos]

From the Index of Giant's Comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335909):

How Familicide Worked PART ONE
How Familicide Worked PART TWO

And and all objections to the logic given above (ESPECIALLY any logic which says "everyone should have died") is answered by: Because Magic. :smalltongue:

[Gallifreyman]

It kills through blood. Let's say someone cast Familicide on a hypothetical guy named Fred. It kills his entire family, then anyone who shares their blood. So say Fred had a cousin named Ted, who had a son with Sarah. The son is dead, so Sarah is now dead. Sarah's family, is now, by extension, dead. Now let's say Sarah had a sister named Cara. Cara had a husband named John, who she had a son with. Boom, John and his family are now dead. And so forth, and so forth. Depending on how many members of each family intermarried into other families and had children with their spouses, this could spread rapidly. Sure, some families are spared just because someone had no children, but the chances of that stopping the spell entirely, and not just preventing it from spreading down one family tree, are miniscule. The spell would and should decimate (kill 1/10) of, the human race.

In other words, in the OotS-verse, if you really love your spouse, don't have children with them.

[Vladier]

It apparently kills everyone directly vertically related to the target and everyone directly vertically related to those secondary targets and then stops. It also supposedly works even when one of the targets is dead and allows those dead to transmit effects further. So, for example, target dies and all his ancestors and descendants, even dead, are used to further eradicate their own ancestors and descendants, but if one of those secondary descendants had unrelated to the first groups parent or if one of those secondary ancestors had a sibling, they wouldn't be hurt.

Should such a spell be cast on a human, it would've effectively wiped out any life in a world with common descent, like Earth, or it would've wiped out all of humanity, were its ancestors two divinely created humans, because everyone can be traced to the first cell or the first human pair respectively. But it would've seemed that the gods of OOTS decided that genetic diversity should exist in their world from the beginning and created many families. Or maybe now there aren't any black dragons in the world, if there was only one original pair of them.

[Porthos]

It kills through blood. Let's say someone cast Familicide on a hypothetical guy named Fred. It kills his entire family, then anyone who shares their blood. So say Fred had a cousin named Ted, who had a son with Sarah. The son is dead, so Sarah is now dead. Sarah's family, is now, by extension, dead. Now let's say Sarah had a sister named Cara. Cara had a husband named John, who she had a son with. Boom, John and his family are now dead. And so forth, and so forth. Depending on how many members of each family intermarried into other families and had children with their spouses, this could spread rapidly. Sure, some families just because someone had no children, but the chances of that stopping the spell entirely, and just preventing it from spreading down one family tree, are miniscule. The spell would and should decimate (kill 1/10) of, the human race.

Did you read the links I supllied above?

If not, let me summarize:

Unlike on Earth, everyone on OotSWorld is NOT related to everyone else via a common ancestor. Remember, the world was created whole cloth, already populated by Divine Fiat.

Simply put it is absolutely possible in OotSWorld for Roy Greenhilt to share no ancestors whatsoever with Haley Starshine, to pick a random example.

What would happen if it were cast on Earth is rather irrelevant. OotSWord != Earth. :smallsmile:

[Gallifreyman]

Aaaaaaaand that's all well and good, but it still supports my revised point-1/10 of the human race should still be dead. World was created fully populated, that means it can't exterminate everyone like I originally stated. But it still should kill a major ton of people.....like 1/10.

[Porthos]

Aaaaaaaand that's all well and good, but it still supports my revised point-

But it doesn't because of Point 3


But if it worked like that, it would have [insert obscure effect proven with math]!

Yeah, well, it didn't. Why? I don't know. But it didn't. I guess that makes me a crappy writer because I didn't think of whatever implication you just thought of, but there it is. I'm not a biologist or a mathematician. If it makes you feel better, just assume that all the laws of heredity and genetics work differently because It's Magic™.

I hope this will end the endless debates. It's really quite simple, and if you're getting to a point where it seems utterly complicated or recursive or whatever, you're probably thinking about it more than I did.

[jere7my]

Aaaaaaaand that's all well and good, but it still supports my revised point-1/10 of the human race should still be dead. World was created fully populated, that means it can't exterminate everyone like I originally stated. But it still should kill a major ton of people.....like 1/10.

You think 1/10 of humanity is related through a living blood relation to Girard Draketooth?

[oppyu]

Summary; It works exactly the way it did because magic, with a touch of storyline and author fiat.

[Gallifreyman]

Hmm, all right. I think I see where you're coming from. Plus, Word of god says so.


But don't you ever DARE insult me like that again......

I hate math. >.<

[Obscure Blade]

Summary; It works exactly the way it did because magic, with a touch of storyline and author fiat.It isn't even that hard to come with a suitable excuse as to why; "it stopped killing because it ran out of power", say.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The reasons mentioned above are also why only 1/4 of the black dragons died, as opposed to all of them, and why the world isn't a barren, lifeless husk given the different races the black dragons could have bred with. :smalltongue:

[thegreatentropy]

I think that what most people don't catch is that, after killing everyone direct blood related to the target, the spell kills everyone still living related to them. If a target is already dead in this phase, it just stops.

Let's say a Draketooth had a child with Anna, then took the child away. After that, Anna met Bob, then they had a boy, Charles.If Anna was still alive when the familicide was cast, Bob, Charles and anyone alive related by blood to them would be killed. But, if Anna was for some reason already dead, this arm of the spell would stop, and they would be sparred.

At least, it's how I interpreted the Giant explanation of it...:smallsmile:

[Keltest]

I think that what most people don't catch is that, after killing everyone direct blood related to the target, the spell kills everyone still living related to them. If a target is already dead in this phase, it just stops.

Let's say a Draketooth had a child with Anna, then took the child away. After that, Anna met Bob, then they had a boy, Charles.If Anna was still alive when the familicide was cast, Bob, Charles and anyone alive related by blood to them would be killed. But, if Anna was for some reason already dead, this arm of the spell would stop, and they would be sparred.

At least, it's how I interpreted the Giant explanation of it...:smallsmile:

That's what I would think as well, except Girard was shown to be dead for a while before the spell was cast. I guess its a possibility that the Giant simply forgot about that detail when he wrote that scene and/or made the statement.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's what I would think as well, except Girard was shown to be dead for a while before the spell was cast. I guess its a possibility that the Giant simply forgot about that detail when he wrote that scene and/or made the statement.

All of Girard's family were direct blood-relatives of the target, so the first part of the spell still hits them, whether or not Girard is alive. Only part 2 cares about whether the relatives are alive or dead.

[Dragonus45]

Nah, it's a two-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon thing. If you used Familicide on Kevin Bacon, it'd kill everyone he's directly related to--mother, father, siblings, children, etc--all the way on up the line through grandparents and stuff. Then it'd come back down the line, and for everyone that it killed, it would check to see if there was anybody who was directly related to them.


This is the single best explanation of Familicide I have ever read, take a cookie.

[BaronOfHell]

It kills through blood. Let's say someone cast Familicide on a hypothetical guy named Fred. It kills his entire family, then anyone who shares their blood. So say Fred had a cousin named Ted, who had a son with Sarah. The son is dead, so Sarah is now dead. Sarah's family, is now, by extension, dead. Now let's say Sarah had a sister named Cara. Cara had a husband named John, who she had a son with. Boom, John and his family are now dead. And so forth, and so forth.
John wouldn't be harmed.

The same goes if Tarquin had a child with Penelope. Penelope would still perish, so would the child, but Tarquin, and by extend, Elan, wouldn't be affected. It's not an infinite loop, it's a 2 step loop which goes over all people and eliminates those who qualifies in each step.


In other words, in the OotS-verse, if you really love your spouse, don't have children with them.

I think one of the major points about epic spells is that the link can be completely arbitrary. It could have been all people whose name started with the letter O as well, I imagine. Or to say.. every couple who hasn't had children yet.

[Gallifreyman]

John wouldn't be harmed.

The same goes if Tarquin had a child with Penelope. Penelope would still perish, so would the child, but Tarquin, and by extend, Elan, wouldn't be affected. It's not an infinite loop, it's a 2 step loop which goes over all people and eliminates those who qualifies in each step.



I think one of the major points about epic spells is that the link can be completely arbitrary. It could have been all people whose name started with the letter O as well, I imagine. Or to say.. every couple who hasn't had children yet.



Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but wouldn't John be dead because his son shares blood with him, and his son is his wife's son, his wife, Cara, is related to Sarah, who is directly related to Fred, the poor bastard upon whom Familicide has been cast?

[Nilehus]

Fred and Sarah don't have a blood relation. Fred and Ted do, and Ted and the son do, so the son is going to die in step 1. Sarah has no blood connection to Fred besides the child, so yes, she will die in step 2. As will everyone who shares a common living ancestor with her. Cara will die, but since John doesn't have a living blood ancestor with Sara, he is safe. His wife and child die, but he does not.

[BaronOfHell]

No, because John doesn't share blood with Cara (unless we're talking incest here..).

Target = Fred.
1) Everyone who "shares blood" with Fred is dead. That includes Ted and his son.
In the comic that's equivalent to the draketooth clan.

2) Everyone who "shares blood" with a family member of Fred's is dead. That includes Sarah (through her son with Ted) and Sarah's family as well (though I'd think not, but I vaguely recall that was how it worked), which includes Cara and her son with John.
In the comic that's equivalent to Penelope.

Which I believe is the same as you wrote so far, however that's it, John does not "share blood" with either Sarah or Fred.

[Koraxx]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but wouldn't John be dead because his son shares blood with him, and his son is his wife's son, his wife, Cara, is related to Sarah, who is directly related to Fred, the poor bastard upon whom Familicide has been cast?

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as an infinitely expanding spell. After taking out the Draketooth line, it moves on to the families of the children of the draketooth children and then stops. So any half-siblings would be affected but the other parents (Not the parent of the draketooth child) of said siblings would not. The short version is the spell takes two steps, then stops.

[BaronOfHell]

By the way, I believe we were promised spoilers. I'd like mine extra crisp, thank you.

[Gallifreyman]

I think I understand it. So it takes two steps-direct blood, then direct blood of the direct blood, then stops. So John, or his equivalent of Tarquin, would be safe, but Cara wouldn't. I believe I understand. Thanks for the help. :)


*flips spoilers on his pan* Want them with butter?

[jere7my]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but wouldn't John be dead because his son shares blood with him, and his son is his wife's son, his wife, Cara, is related to Sarah, who is directly related to Fred, the poor bastard upon whom Familicide has been cast?

Cara is (presumably) not part of her husband John's bloodline.

In step 1, Familicide goes to the top of the target's family tree, and kills all of the branches. In step 2, it kills anyone who shares a common living ancestor or sibling with anyone who died in step 1.

So: the target Alan is killed in step 1. His cousin by blood Bob is also killed in step 1. And Bob's son Chuck is killed in step 1.

Bob's wife Donna is killed in step 2, because she's a living ancestor of someone killed in step 1 (Chuck). If her parents Ed and Fran are alive, they're killed for the same reason. If either Ed or Fran is alive, her sister Greta is killed in step 2, because she shares a common living ancestor (Ed and Fran) with Chuck, who was killed in step 1. But Greta's husband Hank does not share a common living ancestor with anyone who was killed in step 1, so he's fine.

[Nilehus]

I think I understand it. So it takes two steps-direct blood, then direct blood of the direct blood, then stops. So John, or his equivalent of Tarquin, would be safe, but Cara wouldn't. I believe I understand. Thanks for the help. :)


*flips spoilers on his pan* Want them with butter?

Exactly! :)

You want some spoilers? Alrighty...

Darth Vader is Luke's dad
Rosebud was his sled
John dies at the end
King Kong gets shot off the skyscraper
Jesus dies (he gets better)
Gohan is the strongest and he doesn't do crap

There we go!

[BaronOfHell]

I think I understand it. So it takes two steps-direct blood, then direct blood of the direct blood, then stops. So John, or his equivalent of Tarquin, would be safe, but Cara wouldn't. I believe I understand. Thanks for the help. :)


*flips spoilers on his pan* Want them with butter?

You're very welcome. Btw. I think jere7my's input about living ancestors is very important, because that limits the spell's outcome into something more "realistic".

Oh, and all your butter belongs to us. :smallbiggrin:

[Cavenskull]

Exactly! :)

You want some spoilers? Alrighty...

...John dies at the end...
Without explicitly stating the source, this one doesn't work as a spoiler. I can think of five movies off the top of my head where the main character is named John and doesn't die.

[jere7my]

Without explicitly stating the source, this one doesn't work as a spoiler. I can think of five movies off the top of my head where the main character is named John and doesn't die.

Pretty sure Nilehus did explicitly state the source.

[Zmeoaice]

Exactly! :)

You want some spoilers? Alrighty...

Darth Vader is Luke's dad
Rosebud was his sled
John dies at the end
King Kong gets shot off the skyscraper
Jesus dies (he gets better)
Gohan is the strongest and he doesn't do crap

There we go!

Dracula dies
Gatsby dies
Julius Ceasar dies
Romeo & Juliet die
Kenny dies
Bilbo lives
Snape Killed Dumbledore
Norman Bates is the killer
Doctor Octopus switches brains with Spider-Man
Twilight becomes an alicorn princess
Fiona becomes an ogre at night
The Ring is thrown into Mount Doom
Lord Business represents Finn's father

[Porthos]

Pretty sure Nilehus did explicitly state the source.

If so, there's a bit of a problem. :smallwink:

[Nilehus]

Or is there?

... Okay, I threw that one in because it amused me. I'M SORRY!

He doesn't actually die

[Porthos]

Or is there?

... Okay, I threw that one in because it amused me. I'M SORRY!

He doesn't actually die

Now that's a spoiler. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[Nilehus]

And that is why I actually bothered to hide that one. :smalltongue: