Questions from a new DM

[plaugebearer]

I am looking at setting up my first game with local friends and was wanting some advice. I was wanting to start the game at level 17 so that if they choose to go with a Wizard or Sorcerer they have access to 9th level spells. Based on Character Wealth by Level in the DMG that means they have 340,000 gold to spend on creation of their character. I plan on allowing all books except for MIC and was limiting the races to +0 LA races for ease since this is my first game to DM. However I was curious just how strong I need to make the battles as with our group most D&D games are very battle focused more so than the story. There will be 5 members of the party.

So if you have certain monsters or combination of monsters or group of enemy NPC's you think would make sense for them to battle and it be a close fight with the possibility of death to either side. That would be great to hear.

If you have more limited ideas such as suggested AC's, HP's, or other stats for the mobs let me hear those thoughts too.

[Sir Chuckles]

Whew, first time DMing and starting at lv17?
How familiar are you and your players at optimization, and what do they normally play?

This is because it could determine whether or not you're going to have throw seven Balors at them just to have the potential of getting an attack in, or if one small group of mid-level Orcs will wipe them out.

High levels are clusterstrudels like that.

[Honest Tiefling]

I would seriously suggest starting lower, even 2nd level. Don't worry about players not getting the top tier spells--Leveling up and advancement is a part of the game both in and out of character.

And it'll be MUCH simpler.

[Xerlith]

Before anything else is said, I'm going to second the opinions that beginning your D&D experience with a high-level campaign is going to really warp your expectations. Start at 3rd level at most. The sweet spot would be probably 2nd.

[(Un)Inspired]

These guys are super correct. Which is better than being just regular correct.

Starting your first campaign at level 17 is gonna be a nightmare.

[plaugebearer]

I understand it is going to be a challenge that is kinda the idea as for optimization we do very little of that for the most part people just stick to the base class maybe a prestige class and buy items from the more basic books: PH, DMG,Complete X, and A Guidebook to X. The main reason for the high level start is we have played so many games at the lower levels and then start over and play at the lower level again and several people are wanting to be able to play at the high levels but our current DM's do not ever allow that. I was thinking the last big fight would be a dragon or nest of them if needed with several different types of encounters along the way was hoping for some advice in these aspects instead of just "Don't do it"

[Sir Chuckles]

Well, if nobody has done high-level before, then it might be possible.

You didn't adequately answer the optimization question. There's some pretty good builds that can come out of core only, not the best, but good. With that said, I'd like to know how low the floor is here, or if we're hanging onto the edge of a pit.

Is it going to be Fighter 17, Rogue 10/Duelist 7, and an archery Ranger? Or is it Rogue/Swashbuckler, Fighter 2/Barbarian 10/Warhulk 5, and Planar Druid 17? Do they stick to the Weapon Focus line, or are you anticipating a Shock Trooper? Does the Wizard do nothing but Fireball?

You'll get the advice when the subject isn't up in the air. We can't really help you if you just say "17th Level", because that could mean anything from poor schmucks to pseudo-deities killing actual deities on an hourly basis.

[RPGaddict28]

Why are you banning the MIC?

[plaugebearer]

It will be almost entirely one class maybe a single PrC weapon focus is the normal have no idea what storm tropper is anyway and basically everyone just kinda goes for get as much STR on a fighter as they can can as many dmg spells on casters as they can that kinda stuff. So much more like your first suggested group of players.

MIC is banned because our group has concerns about it breaking the game.

[(Un)Inspired]

It will be almost entirely one class maybe a single PrC weapon focus is the normal have no idea what storm tropper is anyway and basically everyone just kinda goes for get as much STR on a fighter as they can can as many dmg spells on casters as they can that kinda stuff. So much more like your first suggested group of players.

MIC is banned because our group has concerns about it breaking the game.

Oy vey. Playing the game organically from the ground up is the best way to learn the weapon focus makes for useless characters.

This may sounds crazy but if you're dead set on starting at the end if the novel then I would recommend banning all the classes in core.

This is gonna eliminate the most over powered options that your characters might stumble into. (I'm looking at you wizard and cleric). It also eliminated some if the weakest options your players might choose like fighter or monk.

[Sir Chuckles]

Oy vey. Playing the game organically from the ground up is the best way to learn the weapon focus makes for useless characters.

This may sounds crazy but if you're dead set on starting at the end if the novel then I would recommend banning all the classes in core.

This is gonna eliminate the most over powered options that your characters might stumble into. (I'm looking at you wizard and cleric). It also eliminated some if the weakest options your players might choose like fighter or monk.

Let them burn themselves and learn by themselves, I guess.

If that's the case, and you have a 5 man party, do not throw anything "level-appropriate" at them. That would mean, for a 4 man party, it would be a CR 17 encounter. Aim for CR 15 - CR 18 fights for this group of 5 17th level poor schmucks. I'd recommend using 3-5 enemies per encounter, as well. The lower the CR, the more enemies. CR 18 would be the BBEG, CR 15 would be his bodyguards.

[Honest Tiefling]

If you are new, low ball it. I am not good with mechanics so I cannot help you there, but try to find something that you think the party will stand a decent chance against. If they win, have a plot hook that his brother/mother/boss/friend/lover/etc. will want revenge and has the capability to amass an army for the sole purpose of vengeance. This way, if they steam roll it you can pretend it was all a part of your plan.

If the PCs are floundering and don't know what to do (common for battle focused characters) have a minion of this baddie try to steal something. It could be small, it could be immaterial. Regardless, the chances are high that they will chase down the thief to the ends of any world they flee to.

Not much, but might help.

[plaugebearer]

Thanks for the help you guys have provided based on this info I am thinking a Wyrm White Dragon for the BBEG. Does this seem reasonable?

[(Un)Inspired]

Give it a bunch of class levels

I recommend sorcerer levels and a bunch of crafted contingent celeritys and arcane spellsurge and wings of cover.

The problem with one big bad guy is that they get curb stomped by the parties shear weight of actions.

You gotta fight back with a monster that can take as many actions an an entire party or more.

[plaugebearer]

Do you have an example? I am not sure I understand what you mean.

[(Un)Inspired]

I edited in a bit o' an example

[Ziegander]

Give it a bunch of class levels

I recommend sorcerer levels and a bunch of crafted contingent celeritys and arcane spellsurge and wings of cover.

The problem with one big bad guy is that they get curb stomped by the parties shear weight of actions.

You gotta fight back with a monster that can take as many actions an an entire party or more.

No. I would not advise doing this. The Dragon is already an 11th level Sorcerer with 35 HD, and his opposition are weapon focus based Fighters and blaster Wizards. Don't optimize the Dragon. Jeez. If that Dragon can take as many actions as the entire party it will curbstomp them.

[Sir Chuckles]

I don't think you need Contingency Celerity or anything like that...
Normally such a thing would be a problem, but I'd say that it's CL 11 and SLAs will do cover the whole action economy. Wall of Ice is enough to trap a standard Weapon Focus Fighter for awhile, and as long as you don't make the fight indoors (Or in a tight area), it should be fine. Make the fight a bit more dynamic, with, say, a canyon wall with outcroppings or boulders for cover. Throw in weather effects like a 2d6 round gust of hard wind that restricts the Dragon's flight as well as the archer's bow, allowing a shift in the combat dynamic every few rounds.

Don't outright trap and kill anyone, though. Play it smartly but not masterfully.

[(Un)Inspired]

No. I would not advise doing this. The Dragon is already an 11th level Sorcerer with 35 HD, and his opposition are weapon focus based Fighters and blaster Wizards. Don't optimize the Dragon. Jeez. If that Dragon can take as many actions as the entire party it will curbstomp them.

I don't recommend optimizing the dragon, just giving him a few extra actions.

[Captnq]

MIC is banned because our group has concerns about it breaking the game.

Uhhhhhh... what?

Go to my sig, get the EVD.

Let me sum it up for you, MIC was one of the biggest collection of Nerfs ever. They really fixed a whole bunch of magic items that needed to be toned down, and toned down a few that didn't need it.

Here. Read this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.0). Especially about how you are far better off banning core if you want to balance the game.

[Red Fel]

Basically, before you DM any game, let alone a high-level game, you should understand several things:

1. Action economy. Any NPC can only take X actions per round. Your typical 5-man-band party can take 5X actions per round. In other words, barring exceptional power spikes, a single NPC will generally either by so overwhelmingly powerful that the PCs never stood a chance, or he'll get steamrolled. There's very little middle ground.

2. Linear fighter, quadratic wizard. As levels increase, both the power and versatility available to spellcasters will skyrocket; melee types will be left in the dust. Read and understand the tier system.

3. Winging it. No plan survives contact with the players. Simply doesn't happen. When the players smash through your carefully-constructed scenarios like proverbial bovines in stores that sell fragile porcelain, your options will be either to veto the PCs' conduct and force their actions (called railroading), or to figure out how to salvage things. This is much easier to learn when the PCs are lower-level, and have fewer tools for dismantling your campaign.

4. Growing complexity. An extension of #2 above. As levels increase, the options available both to players and to DMs increase. But while players may or may not choose to take advantage of these options, you as DM must. That's because if the game looks the same at level 15 as it did as level 5, your players will lose interest. As a result, your world is likely to become far more complex at higher levels than it was at lower ones.

5. Getting the gist. As DM, you don't necessarily need to memorize every rule and mechanic, but you do need to have enough familiarity that your players can't mess you (or themselves) over. That means you want to know, for example, what actions a PC can take in combat, what the typical dice rolls and saves are, where you can find various monsters and spells in the books, and so forth. You want to do this, if not because some of your players might be tricky, because you want to ensure that the players don't mistakenly fail to do something that could save the party from disaster.

Now, you plan to run an extremely high-level campaign. Let's look at what's likely to happen.

1. Action economy. At high levels, your players have even more options than they did at low levels. Various spells and effects can let them do outrageous numbers of things. In particular, various Summon spells can turn a single spellcaster into an army. If you want your baddies to keep up, you'd better make sure they fight smartly and in numbers.

2. Linear fighter, quadratic wizard. Your wizards will be starting the game as gods, your fighters will be starting the game as eunuchs. Your spellcasters can cast spells like Wish and Miracle; you don't need to be an optimizer to figure out how game-breaking these spells can be. Your fighters are going to be very good at hitting things with a pointed stick. If your players are smart, your melees will feel useless. If your players are unprepared, your casters will feel dead in two rounds.

3. Winging it. Level isn't relevant here. What's relevant is the DM's experience. For a first-time DM, seeing your plans smashed like so much stained glass can be a painful experience. By starting with a high-level campaign, you've given your players a truckload of bricks and driven them straight to the cathedral; you've pointed to the largest, most beautiful window, done the physics calculations, and informed them of the ideal angle and force of a throw to smash the window to tiny snow-like fragments. Your players are so able to destroy your plot right now you should be wondering if it's even worth constructing a story. Brace yourself.

4. Growing complexity. If you're starting at 17, you're a few steps from epic. You've basically opened the door to the possibility of just about anything, be it dragons, undead, illithids, aberrations, anything. The problem is that your players haven't experienced any of it. They haven't killed kobolds and you're pitting them against dragons. They haven't killed zombies and they'll be facing liches. There are steps, baby steps at first, that your players haven't taken. Will your Cleric know how to Turn Undead? Will your Rogue know that Constructs are immune to Sneak Attack damage? Will your Wizard know about a Golem's unusual reactions to various spells? By dint of the campaign being high-level, the monsters will have to be threats, but your players won't have the slightest idea of how to face them. Keep that in mind.

5. Getting the gist. Perhaps you've been studying the books for years in secret. Perhaps you have an eidetic or photographic memory. Perhaps you're a naturally good judge of rules and mechanics. I don't know, but I doubt it - banning the MIC is, pardon me for my bluntness, an amateur mistake. It accomplishes nothing, except to communicate that your understanding of the rules is understandably limited. You're a first-time DM; nobody expects you to recreate the Battle of Five Armies or lay waste to Harrenhal. But you're dealing with pre-epic mechanics, shenanigans of tremendous magnitude, and your experience is a factor. I'm not saying you can't handle it, but I am saying you need to be far more intimately familiar with the rules than you are.

[plaugebearer]

Wow I had to miss a couple days on this post due to work and you guys have provided a wealth of information. I thank you for you time and help in this matter. Based on the info you guys have given I will remove the ban of MIC even if my group feels it is the broken portion of D&D.(Their idea is that the prices seem way cheaper and you can add Stat enhancers to lots of items such as a +6 Dex Boots of Speed) As for the players never fighting kolbolds and now fighting dragons part I feel that is a bit off while that may be true for these characters these players have played several games in the level 1-10 range and even more in the 10-15 range but our DM's always start a new story at 15 right after everyone gets the items they have been hoping for. Yes I understand that this story may be a trainwreck and my players understand as well. If it does go bad we have a back up game from another DM but it will be starting at level 1 again. This idea is just to give hope that we can try a game at higher levels. This game also will not likely take place until the end of the summer so i have time to draw out maps and plant traps and prepare hordes of monsters. I have a few of the players making me mock characters so i can test those vs my mobs to try and get the numbers right before the game. So at this point I guess all I have left to say is thanks and feel free to post or PM me with any advice you think i might need still(broad topic i know) or if you have any fun traps, encounters, puzzle, or whatnot that you might want to share for me to work into my story I am open for ideas.

[Coventry]

Their idea is that the prices seem way cheaper and you can add Stat enhancers to lots of items such as a +6 Dex Boots of Speed)

The prices for the stat boosters are in line with other magic items that had been published by WotC.

I am specifically thinking of the Belt of Magnificence from page 40 of the Miniatures Handbook ... a belt that grants +2/+4/+6 enhancement to all stats at a price of 25,000/100,000/200,000 gold.

Using a girdle of giant strength as the base, and applying the costs from the MIC to replicate those three variations, the costs end up 24,000/96,000/216,000 gold, respectively.

Few characters need all six stats boosted like that, of course.