Half-dragon gish in D&D 3.5

[Bex0r]

Hello. I am bex0r and I am going to play a red half-dragon/half-human in a 3.5 campaign and I need to find a good Class.

I know that half-dragons are better suited for fighting classes due to their strength bonus, but I simply don't care. This is actually a character that I have been playing in free-form gaming for over a decade so this is a matter of finding a class to fit her personality, rather than fitting her to a class. She is a haughty spell-caster, prone to petty outbursts, and longs for the glory of her full-blooded ancestors. Her alignment is chaotic neutral.

She is very gishy. The Magus class in Pathfinder would work well, but we are going with D&D 3.5 instead.

I don't care about the level adjustment. I'll work with it. I am willing to consider any classes/races as long as the following requirements are met:

1. Must be able to have wings and fly.
2. Must be able to breathe fire.
3. Must be able to cast spells, preferably like a sorcerer rather than wizard (as in, no book studying).
4. Must be somewhat useful in melee combat.

I am definitely open to obscure classes/prestige classes. I do own all of the dragon and spell-caster related D&D literature including Races of the Dragon, the Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Complete Mage, Complete Arcane, etc, though I am not intimately familiar with all they contain.

Please advise on what classes I should consider. Thank you very much in advance.

-bex

[(Un)Inspired]

As it stands you can't make a Gish with a half dragon unless you use wizard as a base.

The LA of half dragon eats up 3 levels and sorcerers don't get 9 the level spells till 18. The baseline for a Gish is 9th level spells and 16 bab by 20th level.

There IS a wizard variant that prepares it's spells by smoking and doesn't both with a spellbook. Its called the Eidetic wizard and is found in one of the Dragon mags that I can't remember off the top of my head.

I don't think there's enough full bab prestige classes to get you up to 16 bab even with bloodline shenanigans for qualifying for them to make up for your LA but that's the direction id start in.

[Bex0r]

Thanks for the reply.

In that case, I will probably just go with Sorcerer, though I would be interested to know if there are any Sorcerer-like classes or Prestige classes that might be interesting for a half-dragon that I should consider, or some that might take advantage of some of the half-dragons abilities.

[docnessuno]

As it stands you can't make a Gish with a half dragon unless you use wizard as a base.

The LA of half dragon eats up 3 levels and sorcerers don't get 9 the level spells till 18. The baseline for a Gish is 9th level spells and 16 bab by 20th level.

That really depends for the Tier you are shooting at. Duskblades are considered quite effective T3 gishes despite stopping at lvl 5 spells.

And Duskblade is the class i would suggest for this character as well. Duskblade 15 / Abjurant champion 2 or Duskblade 13 / Abjurant champion 4 would work quite well.

[(Un)Inspired]

Have you looked at the draconic template? It thematically fits the same roll as a half dragon and could probably be refluffed to be one but it doesn't cripple your character.

Beyond that...

Maybe a duskblade? They cast spontaneously using int. Half dragons get an int bonus right? So that's using your template-gained abilities.

They can fight really well and cast up to 5th level spells from a combat focused list. It's a lot like the pathfinder magus. Sort of like a miniature version of a Gish for players that don't want a powerful character.

Edit: ninja'd on the duskblade suggestion


That really depends for the Tier you are shooting at. Duskblades are considered quite effective T3 gishes despite stopping at lvl 5 spells.

And Duskblade is the class i would suggest for this character as well. Duskblade 15 / Abjurant champion 2 or Duskblade 13 / Abjurant champion 4 would work quite well.

Duskblade a are cool tier 3s but I would go so far as to call them a gish. Their casting isn't anywhere close to their combat prowess.

[Urpriest]

Based on your description, a Dragonborn Human Sorceror (houseruled a bit to deal with the alignment issues) who learns breath weapon spells would fit the bill. Build a gish of some sort and you should be fairly competent in melee.

That said, if you're importing this from a freeform game, why are you guys using 3.5? It seems much more logical to use a modified system to match the setting assumptions of your freeform game.

[Windstorm]

level adjustment buyoff might also be a good candidate for this, since you're set on half-dragon. LA buyoff rules are in Unearthed Arcana, given that its a +3LA you'd be able to start buying off at 9th level onwards; but eventually you'd wind up as a +0 LA just like the rest of the party the same time you finally hit Lv 13. (XP system will equalize your level drop reasonably quickly.)

you will also have to burn feats if you want permanent wings (or take a dragon-centric class that grants them), as medium creatures do not get wings by default from being a half-dragon. more info can be found in races of the dragon.

tbh the character sounds like a good fit for sorcerer/swordsage/jade phoenix mage, just get with your DM and refluff the PrC a bit.

is wearing any armor a major concern? and if so, what type?

[(Un)Inspired]

level adjustment buyoff might also be a good candidate for this, since you're set on half-dragon. LA buyoff rules are in Unearthed Arcana, given that its a +3LA you'd be able to start buying off at 9th level onwards; but eventually you'd wind up as a +0 LA just like the rest of the party the same time you finally hit Lv 13. (XP system will equalize your level drop reasonably quickly.)

you will also have to burn feats if you want permanent wings (or take a dragon-centric class that grants them), as medium creatures do not get wings by default from being a half-dragon. more info can be found in races of the dragon.

tbh the character sounds like a good fit for sorcerer/swordsage/jade phoenix mage, just get with your DM and refluff the PrC a bit.

is wearing any armor a major concern? and if so, what type?

With LA buyoff that character could buy it's first point off at ECL 12 then it's next point off at 19.

[Bex0r]

My GM is set on 3.5, but is willing to accept just about anything as long as we can provide the literature to support it. Our characters are supposed to be starting around lvl3.

To be honest, I am just attached to this character. I have played several other campaigns recently that were primarily focused on action, and now that we are getting into something more based around story-telling and character-building, I want to play a character whose mind I know.

He is considering letting me play the half-dragon. My other option is to play a full dragon character under the condition that I spend a majority of my time in a polymorphed human form. I do not like this idea as the level adjustment is going to be a nightmare, and it doesn't give me the special snowflake attention I want by being the party's token monster girl. ;P

I am looking into the duskblade, so thank you for that suggestion.

Armor is not that much of a concern. Half-dragons get a bit of a natural armour bonus and as a spell-caster and a flying character I'm not looking to wear plate. :)

[Windstorm]

With LA buyoff that character could buy it's first point off at ECL 12 then it's next point off at 19.

no, 9 is correct. the character has an LA of +3, so the start point is 9, however I got the midlevels incorrect (was working from memory) and according to the given table on Pg 18 of UA a +3 LA is bought off a Levels 9, 15, and 18

so it would be a gradual thing, but does open up more possibilities.

level 12 is the first level to buyoff a +4 LA, and one of only 2 levels where buying off that LA is possible pre-epic. (12, 20, 25, 28)

edit: if you're not wearing armor then you'll need to only take the first two wings feats in the chain from races of the dragon (dragon wings and improved dragon wings). you might want to look into also having wings of air, greater on your spell list to improve your maneuverability to perfect in a pinch. dragon tail from the same list might be flavorful but will likely hurt your sorcerer feat selection. consider a level or two of abjurant champion for quickened abjurations and the better HD/BAB

[(Un)Inspired]

level adjustment buyoff might also be a good candidate for this, since you're set on half-dragon. LA buyoff rules are in Unearthed Arcana, given that its a +3LA you'd be able to start buying off at 9th level onwards; but eventually you'd wind up as a +0 LA just like the rest of the party the same time you finally hit Lv 13. (XP system will equalize your level drop reasonably quickly.)


From the SRD

Table: Reducing Level Adjustments
Starting
Level
Adjustment Number of Class Levels Necessary
for Level Adjustment Reduction
(Not Including Racial Hit Dice)
1 3
2 6,9
3 9, 15, 18
4 12
5 15
6 18

You lose you first point of LA at CLASS LEVEL 9. You still have to include that +3 level adjustment in there so you ECL is gonna be 12. You next buy can be at ECL 17 (I was mistaken about 18).

[Windstorm]

From the SRD

Table: Reducing Level Adjustments
Starting
Level
Adjustment Number of Class Levels Necessary
for Level Adjustment Reduction
(Not Including Racial Hit Dice)
1 3
2 6,9
3 9, 15, 18
4 12
5 15
6 18

You lose you first point of LA at CLASS LEVEL 9. You still have to include that +3 level adjustment in there so you ECL is gonna be 12. You next buy can be at ECL 17 (I was mistaken about 18).


reading complicated rules while being sick accuracy does not make. I herped my derp.

still, even with the 2 adjustment buyoff, it qualifies you for a lot of things and leaves only 1 LA compromising build at 20, better than a kick in the nuts, and better than what draconic creature would give you.

[Bex0r]

I don't need to worry about the tail thing. Since the half-dragon template doesn't explicitly say whether half-dragons have a tail or not, my GM will probably let me just have one. As for wings, he may allow me to have them anyways even though my creature size will be medium.

No need to be grumpy. I read things wrong all the time, which is why I'm here getting advice from you lovely people rather than trusting myself to figure this out all by myself. Herping your derp is one thing, but as a dyslexic it takes usually three people and a calculator to get me through a typical encounter. ;P

While draconic creature is a valid option, I will likely go with the half-dragon anyways, since I think it fits more of what I'm looking for, and I don't mind the level adjustment.

If we forgot about the melee combat thing for a moment and just focused on spell-casting with a draconic flare, would any of your recommendations change?

[Urpriest]

My GM is set on 3.5, but is willing to accept just about anything as long as we can provide the literature to support it. Our characters are supposed to be starting around lvl3.

To be honest, I am just attached to this character. I have played several other campaigns recently that were primarily focused on action, and now that we are getting into something more based around story-telling and character-building, I want to play a character whose mind I know.

He is considering letting me play the half-dragon. My other option is to play a full dragon character under the condition that I spend a majority of my time in a polymorphed human form. I do not like this idea as the level adjustment is going to be a nightmare, and it doesn't give me the special snowflake attention I want by being the party's token monster girl. ;P

I am looking into the duskblade, so thank you for that suggestion.

Armor is not that much of a concern. Half-dragons get a bit of a natural armour bonus and as a spell-caster and a flying character I'm not looking to wear plate. :)

Ok, starting at level 3 means you can't play a Half-Dragon anyway, so that option is right out. (I mean, you could use the Half-Dragon Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a)...but it's still not a great idea. Plus, as mentioned, D&D half-dragons can't fly unless they're Large.)

If you were starting at a higher level then it might actually be more viable to play a dragon, if you did it precisely right (specifically, Steel Dragon Wyrmling with the Loredrake Sovereign Archetype).

You could use one of the Dragon Monster Classes in Dragon Magazine 320. A Silver Dragon would have Alternate Form 1/day at this level, and would still be up to date on hit dice (though you'd fall rapidly behind at higher levels). Take the Half-Dragon Form feat from Dragons of Eberron when you get the option if you want your human form to be cosmetically half-dragony (though again, no wings except in dragon form).

If you have access to homebrew, the Homebrew Monster Classes on this forum are generally pretty good.

In general, I still think the simplest option is Dragonborn, refluffed so that your character fits the alignment requirements.

That said, I should warn you that in general playing a character you've played before in a different game is a bad idea. Players tend to get way too heavily invested in what happened to the character previously and what their capabilities were, and it cuts down on your ability to be flexible and have character development. It's fine to have a character inspired by a previous character, but you will probably want to modify the character in a few key ways to keep them distinct in your mind.

[Windstorm]

actually, level 3 start is perfect for the races of the dragon "class progression" (basically an updated/cleaned version of the savage species one) its on page 70, and allows you to gain the benefits over a few levels. given templates are at thier strongest early game, my advice would be sorcerer 1 draconic racial class 2, taking the third at ECL 4, and then starting buyoff at ECL 12 in order to regain lost caster levels where it will start to really show.

as for the non-gish halfdragon, I'd still recommend abjurant champion, because quickened abjurations and decent HD are always incredibly nice. you might look at some of the draconic heratige stuff, but the majority of it is a noob trap. if you're going evoker sorcerer, consider elemental savant as well.

the most interesting thing that comes to mind is Pact-Bound adept, which lets you make a deal with a dragon and lose a spell slot in exchange for some fairly decent SLAs, along with eschew materials and other fun stuff. very flavorful.

[(Un)Inspired]

Yeah, wait, with the savage half dragon progression you can buy off the LA waaaaay more easily.

Then you could do a sorcerer/abjurant champion/swiftblade/unseen seer build for 9th level spells and 16 bab.

[Windstorm]

Yeah, wait, with the savage half dragon progression you can buy off the LA waaaaay more easily.

Then you could do a sorcerer/abjurant champion/swiftblade/unseen seer build for 9th level spells and 16 bab.

I hadn't thought about that, since the racial class levels are "you gain +1 LA" instead of "you gain a level in a racial class" you could technically start with the +1 LA and then buyoff that +1 before acquiring the next level in the racial progression. its cheese, to be sure, but makes playing a half-dragon caster much more doable without significant power hits.

[(Un)Inspired]

I hadn't thought about that, since the racial class levels are "you gain +1 LA" instead of "you gain a level in a racial class" you could technically start with the +1 LA and then buyoff that +1 before acquiring the next level in the racial progression. its cheese, to be sure, but makes playing a half-dragon caster much more doable without significant power hits.

It's a little cheesy but it's for a sorcerer Gish that's being built because the OP wants the flavor.

I'd allow it in a party with wizards and Druids, maybe not with fighters and rogues.

[Bex0r]

That said, I should warn you that in general playing a character you've played before in a different game is a bad idea. Players tend to get way too heavily invested in what happened to the character previously and what their capabilities were, and it cuts down on your ability to be flexible and have character development. It's fine to have a character inspired by a previous character, but you will probably want to modify the character in a few key ways to keep them distinct in your mind.

Thank you for the warning. I definitely understand your concern, and in general I agree with you completely. However in this case the group I am playing with is continuing a story-arc that just happened to begin in free-form, so I am confident that we will manage without sacrificing character development (which is part of the point of our game, after all). I recognize that although I am attached to this character I am playing her at my own risk, and if she dies during the game I promise not to ragequit epically into the night. ;P

For what it's worth, the party currently includes a bard, a cleric, a rogue, a barbarian, a fighter, and a swashbuckler.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The +3 LA can be dealt with, even starting at 3rd level. You can gradually gain Half-Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a) only one point of LA at a time, and not every level spent on it must be consecutive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). You can also buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) gradually as you gain it. For example, start with Half Dragon LA +1/ [class levels] 2 at 3rd level. Gain one more class level, and buy off that point of LA for 3,000 xp. Spend your next level on the next point of the Half-Dragon LA, gain three more class levels, then buy that one off. Get the last point of the Half-Dragon LA at your next level, and after three more class levels buy it off. Being a lower level than the rest of the party each time you buy that off, you'll gain more xp per encounter and should catch back up fairly quickly.

For wings and a breath attack, start with the Dragon Wings feat from Races of the Dragon, and get Improved Dragon Wings at 6th level. At 9th level take the feat Dragon Breath, also in Races of the Dragon, which makes your Half-Dragon breath attack usable every 1d4 rounds instead of only 1/day.

For your level build, a standard Sorcerer Gish build would be Fighter 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5, then finish with something like Sacred Exorcist or Eldritch Knight. You could also go Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5, and have an overall better character. Obligatory Gish Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786) link.

[Yorrin]

Another vote here for Dragonborn, from Races of the Dragon.

It sounds like what you're wanting to play is a Dragonborn Sorcerer. This still keep the whole dragon-person feel without the unnecessary complications of the half-dragon template. And if you choose the Breath Weapon option you can pick up the Wings via the feats in that same book.

The Prestige Class called Abjurant Champion, as mentioned several times in this thread, also help you keep your casting at its peak while significantly booting your martial prowess, but from what I gather it would be less central to your build if you didn't like it for some reason.

[Kazudo]

Am I stumbling blind drunk again, or do you retain modes of travel (read: wings) when gaining Dragonborn of Bahamut?

I ask, because the Unseelie Fey template is a level +0 template, so is Dragonborn. So you could template layer Unseelie Fey, then Dragonborn (making sure you snag the Wings from Unseelie Fey and the Heart Aspect from Dragonborn), then just Duskblade 3. No problems there! Heck, for a base race, why not pick something you won't lose anything (necessarily) from, like...I dunno...Half Elf?

It's bluetext don't shoot me!

[Yogibear41]

If you can use homebrew I suggest this: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3533.0 2nd level gets you casting as a 1st level sorcerer. You can then take a few levels of fighter or something to boost your BAB high enough to start taking things like 1 level ofspellsword at BAB 4 and then Abjurant Champion the very next level, then finally finishing up with eldritch knight or a similar class.