What's So Great About Contingency?

[Vrock_Summoner]

I've seen arguments that Contingency is so strong it warrants not banning Evocation if Craft Contingent Spell is allowed, and if it is allowed then any wizard who doesn't have it by level 15 isn't doing the caster thing right. I mean, it's clearly useful, I won't argue that, but why is it professed so strongly as something every wizard can't live without? I've seen people say that high level high-op wizard battles will invariably come down to who worded their seventh or so Contingency better. What gives?

[TroubleBrewing]

It's an added layer of protection on classes that derive most of their power from preparation.

To put it simpler, the Wizard loves planning for contingencies. It stands to reason that Contingency would be useful in this regard.

[(Un)Inspired]

Action economy is the key to dungeons and dragons.

Craft contingency lets you take as many actions as you want , whenever you want if you're clever.

Contingency the spell does the same thing on a much smaller scale.

Contingency is like playing chess but you get to make several moves on your turn, several on you opponents turn and you're aloud to rearrange the board when he gets up to go to the bathroom.

[Psyren]

Contingency is like playing chess but you get to make several moves on your turn, several on you opponents turn and you're aloud to rearrange the board when he gets up to go to the bathroom.

Very tempted to sig this

[(Un)Inspired]

Very tempted to sig this

I'd consider it an honor if you did.

[Valtu]

When it comes to Contingency the spell vs. Craft Contingent Spell, the feat is definitely better, right? I'm playing the first character that might make it to the point that I can actually take the spell, but after coming across the feat, I'm not sure the spell itself seems nearly as valuable.

What is the recommended or most effective way to make use of one or both kinds of Contingencies?

[Vhaidara]

If he doesn't, I might.

But yeah, it also allows for some Initiative ignoring shenanigans.

Most basic example, starting when you get access to Time Stop.

Contingency: When I become engaged in a combat, Cast Celerity (allows the immediate taking of a standard action, dazes you for your next turn).

Celerity triggers, you use the standard action to cast Time Stop. You are dazed for the first round of Time Stop.

You get to go first in initiative. And then you get to go for up to 3 more turns. And then you have you actual turn in initiative.

[ryu]

When it comes to Contingency the spell vs. Craft Contingent Spell, the feat is definitely better, right? I'm playing the first character that might make it to the point that I can actually take the spell, but after coming across the feat, I'm not sure the spell itself seems nearly as valuable.

What is the recommended or most effective way to make use of one or both kinds of Contingencies?

Feat better hands down. By recommended forms of use are you looking for best spells to pick? Maybe how best to word contingency triggers? Oh are you looking to bypass limits like crafting XP and only being allowed to craft spells onto something up to their hit dice amount? I've got answers.

[(Un)Inspired]

Keledrath, you're more than welcome to sig it as well.

As far as best spells to use with either contingency, celerity is definitely the answer as has been outlined above.

Teleportation spells are also good choices

[TroubleBrewing]

Elemental protection spells are great for low-op situations. "If I'm set on fire, cast [spell that negates fire damage]" is just one limited, poorly worded example.

[ryu]

Keledrath, you're more than welcome to sig it as well.

As far as best spells to use with either contingency, celerity is definitely the answer as has been outlined above.

Teleportation spells are also good choices

There's also the consideration of how many contingencies you're willing to work with and whether or not the enemy is savvy enough to make ice assassins of you to mindrape knowledge of contingencies out of them with safety. Both of these have severe and incredible effects on how best to use contingent spells.

[(Un)Inspired]

There's also the consideration of how many contingencies you're willing to work with and whether or not the enemy is savvy enough to make ice assassins of you to mindrape knowledge of contingencies out of them with safety. Both of these have severe and incredible effects on how best to use contingent spells.

That's a really good point

[VoxRationis]

So in short, when people refer to contingencies or contingent spells, they're usually referring to some out-of-core things related to the core spell, or else really high-level use. Contingency by itself isn't quite as good (1 extra buff if the enemy attacks in the way you expect them to, or several extra if you can cast Time Stop), since you can only have 1 at a time.

[eggynack]

So in short, when people refer to contingencies or contingent spells, they're usually referring to some out-of-core things related to the core spell, or else really high-level use. Contingency by itself isn't quite as good (1 extra buff if the enemy attacks in the way you expect them to, or several extra if you can cast Time Stop), since you can only have 1 at a time.
Well, if you design the contingency to react to your own actions, like, "When I call out the word foombowazow," then it becomes one extra buff whenever you want it, and with no action cost. It's pretty sweet.

[(Un)Inspired]

So in short, when people refer to contingencies or contingent spells, they're usually referring to some out-of-core things related to the core spell, or else really high-level use. Contingency by itself isn't quite as good (1 extra buff if the enemy attacks in the way you expect them to, or several extra if you can cast Time Stop), since you can only have 1 at a time.

Not quite. Contingency by itself is still really great. Just in core, you can have a contingency to Dimensional Door away based on a free action command word you can speak as a free action whenever. Now you've got a get out of jail free card useful against attacks, spells, areas of effect that you're in.

Or how about this, you have a Contingency Haste set to go off when the fighter draws his sword. Boom everyone gets Hasted. You just avoided spending your turn casting that great buff.

Contingency get bonkers at high levels, especially when you use Craft contingent spells instead of contingency spell but it's still amazingly strong at mid levels when you first get it.

[VoxRationis]

I said "not quite as good," not "not good." It's a good spell; I wasn't contesting that. It's just not the "I have 18 different spell effects go off on me the moment you said a harsh word, as well as summon my pet Solar" that 20th-level wizards with lots of Craft Contingent Spell usage get, by virtue of only casting 1 spell and one only being able to keep 1 up at a time.

[ryu]

Not quite. Contingency by itself is still really great. Just in core, you can have a contingency to Dimensional Door away based on a free action command word you can speak as a free action whenever. Now you've got a get out of jail free card useful against attacks, spells, areas of effect that you're in.

Or how about this, you have a Contingency Haste set to go off when the fighter draws his sword. Boom everyone gets Hasted. You just avoided spending your turn casting that great buff.

Contingency get bonkers at high levels, especially when you use Craft contingent spells instead of contingency spell but it's still amazingly strong at mid levels when you first get it.

It gets even better if you're willing to craft onto party members. It gets better still if you're willing to craft onto ice assassin minions. It gets absolutely frigging hilarious if you're willing to polymorph any object those minions as small as possible and keep arbitrarily large amounts of them up your sleeves.

[(Un)Inspired]

I said "not quite as good," not "not good." It's a good spell; I wasn't contesting that. It's just not the "I have 18 different spell effects go off on me the moment you said a harsh word, as well as summon my pet Solar" that 20th-level wizards with lots of Craft Contingent Spell usage get, by virtue of only casting 1 spell and one only being able to keep 1 up at a time.

Very true. I think the Craft contingent spell feat is probably the most broken think outside of core. It's one of the few things that comes close to core's nonsense.

[ryu]

Very true. I think the Craft contingent spell feat is probably the most broken think outside of core. It's one of the few things that comes close to core's nonsense.

Pazuzu punpun paladin kobold.

[Skysaber]

By recommended forms of use are you looking for best spells to pick? Maybe how best to word contingency triggers? Oh are you looking to bypass limits like crafting XP and only being allowed to craft spells onto something up to their hit dice amount? I've got answers.

Even if he isn't, I'd be interested to know all of those things.

I've never really worked much with Contingency before.

[Just to Browse]

Pazuzu punpun paladin kobold.

Paladin? Is this that earth glide thing?

[ryu]

Even if he isn't, I'd be interested to know all of those things.

I've never really worked much with Contingency before.

Intend contingency triggers are best worded to activate when you think a very specific thing that isn't likely to be thought for any reason besides activating that specific contingency. Why thought activation? Precaution against situations where you can't speak or gesture. Also thinking is a non-action and allows you to activate pretty much as many contingencies at once as you like. There is another form of activation that becomes optimal for a specific subset of cases in frighteningly high OP settings. These settings involve people making ice assassins of you to learn your contingencies by mind raping them. This bypasses vecna-blooded divination immunity. This is only a relevant thing to you if you're basically at the highest OP short of PUn-pun.

Spells to use are many so instead of getting specific and making this take all of the time I'll just give some general guidelines. Defensive mindrape targeting yourself and party members to remind yourselves of certain contingency triggers you mind raped out earlier in a tough fight against the nasty situation in the last paragraph is probably the most important if there are no limits in place. Beyond those you have long distance travel effects for escape or pursuit, summoning spells to bring in large amounts of help at minimal action cost, battlefield control spells offering as few saves or other defenses as possible, defensive buffs just in case yours aren't on at the start for some reason or are dispelled, and offensive magic offering as little defense as possible are some of the most important contingencies you can have.

To void crafting XP use the spell distilled joy implanted in wondrous architecture to gather ambrosia to cover casting costs. You can do this with many professions, but my favorite is owning or partnering with brothels. Using this advantage you can get an unlimited amount of crafting XP substitute and make a lot of money in the process.

The best way to get around the limit on crafting number by hit dice is to have large amounts of ice assassin minions shrunken as small as possible and hidden in your cloths at all times. I recommend 20 HD things with flight, lots, of HP, high natural defenses, and lots of artillery blasting power so you don't have to waste as much magic. I use various types of dragon, but anything fitting that criteria should work wonders. Also craft onto party members for their own safety. Also see if they'll also accept some shrunken minion spell holders.

Any other questions?

Edit: Pazuzu Pun-pun paladin kobold refers to the earliest possible method of obtaining unlimited power in the form of pun-pun. Think long drawn out series of wish abuses to get manipulate form at level 1.

[Valtu]

Feat better hands down. By recommended forms of use are you looking for best spells to pick? Maybe how best to word contingency triggers? Oh are you looking to bypass limits like crafting XP and only being allowed to craft spells onto something up to their hit dice amount? I've got answers.

I didn't have a lot of specific questions, mostly whether or not it was just me, or was Craft Contingent Spell about a billion times better than regular Contingency?

The Celerity and Time Stop combo is pretty amazing, but sadly it'll be quite a while (if ever, in this campaign) before I get a spell that high of a level. Current character is a gish and so my spells known/per day have suffered by a couple levels :P

I've got another caster rolled up that I plan on using soon in a sort of parallel campaign but he's an Ultimate Magus (going for maximum utility) and his spells known/per day really suffer as far as knowing high-level stuff goes.

Anyway. . . no more rambling. If you use Craft Contingent Spell (can I just start saying CCS?), it doesn't seem like you're limited to spells with a personal range on them the way you are with the regular spell, so how does targeting work with something that deals damage if you've placed the contingency on an ally?

Obviously it's mostly intended to be used with buffs on others, but just trying to get creative.

[ryu]

I didn't have a lot of specific questions, mostly whether or not it was just me, or was Craft Contingent Spell about a billion times better than regular Contingency?

The Celerity and Time Stop combo is pretty amazing, but sadly it'll be quite a while (if ever, in this campaign) before I get a spell that high of a level. Current character is a gish and so my spells known/per day have suffered by a couple levels :P

I've got another caster rolled up that I plan on using soon in a sort of parallel campaign but he's an Ultimate Magus (going for maximum utility) and his spells known/per day really suffer as far as knowing high-level stuff goes.

Anyway. . . no more rambling. If you use Craft Contingent Spell (can I just start saying CCS?), it doesn't seem like you're limited to spells with a personal range on them the way you are with the regular spell, so how does targeting work with something that deals damage if you've placed the contingency on an ally?

Obviously it's mostly intended to be used with buffs on others, but just trying to get creative.

Bit of a gray area though. Our group rules that either the crafter determines target upon activation or allows the person it's crafted onto to pick in a decision made at the crafting stage.

[HaikenEdge]

Even if Psyren and Keledrath aren't sigging that quote, I most certainly am; it's just too good of an analogy to let go, so if you want me to remove it from my sig, please say so.

[Kraken]

Another abusive but legal use of contingency is to cast one on yourself, and one on your familiar.


At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.

If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).

Obviously you're limited in what's useful for this second contingency, as it triggers on the familiar and not on you, but for the price of admission (a second focus worth 1500+ GP), it's well worth it.

[Eldariel]

I said "not quite as good," not "not good." It's a good spell; I wasn't contesting that. It's just not the "I have 18 different spell effects go off on me the moment you said a harsh word, as well as summon my pet Solar" that 20th-level wizards with lots of Craft Contingent Spell usage get, by virtue of only casting 1 spell and one only being able to keep 1 up at a time.

Usually this is a fairly inefficient use of it in any case. Big part of playing a Wizard is using minimum investment necessary to deal with any issue; leaves you maximum resources to do maximum amounts of things per day. I wouldn't bother spending the Crafted Contingencies on individual buffs; I'd rather just use them to take actions when needed and cast buffs if I really want some. Usually I simply use Crafted Celerities. They allow me to pick the appropriate action for each situation, and I only have to use Celerity when necessary.

With 20 Crafted Celerities and the Contingency-spell, a level 20 character can have 21 standard actions available as a free action. Add Instant Refuge for a free action teleport too. You can also Limited Wish or Wand or Wyrm Wizard or whatever Favor of the Martyr so you don't have to worry about the Daze, but you can usually eat the Daze up by Teleporting somewhere safe or eating them with Time Stop. Mind, Contingencies can be crafted on everybody so anyone with access to Cunning Legacy Weapon or Foresight and a crafter can have the 20 actions whenever; casters get few extras tho. Also, Celerity is stupid (as is Anticipatory Strike, Synchronity and their ilk).


In Core, Dimension Door and Teleport often fulfill the same function. If your enemy can't Teleport, you can Teleport away (whole party if so desired), take your sweet time buffing the **** up and Teleport back with round/level buff and underling you feel like bringing along. Unless your enemy is also a caster, they have basically no meaningful actions to take while you're gone.

Basically, Contingent Teleport turns every encounter into Scry'n'Die without the necessity of using the Scry even if you get surprised or whatever. The best part is, since talking is a free action that can be taken out of turn order, you can tie Contingency to it (or even better, the mouth movements for producing certain word; that works in Silence) and use it basically whenever when you're not flat-footed. Then once you get high enough you can add Foresight and never be flat-footed so you can literally Teleport whenever wherever. There are other options too (Force walls, burrowing, etc.) but they tend to be less universal, though there are of course conditions where Teleport doesn't work. Please mind the caster level limit on Contingency though; you can never get over 6th level spells on it without stupidity around the level of Reserve of Strength.

EDIT: Just to be clear, that limitation does not, of course, apply to Craft Contingent Spell, another reason why it's absolutely hilarious.

[(Un)Inspired]

Even if Psyren and Keledrath aren't sigging that quote, I most certainly am; it's just too good of an analogy to let go, so if you want me to remove it from my sig, please say so.

I'm just happy you enjoyed it.

[JeenLeen]

Is it legit to have a Contingency such as "When I reach 20 HP, teleport me to x", and it works during HP loss?

That's phrased poorly. What I mean is... if a wizard has 30 HP left, and takes 40 damage, would they A) be at -10 and die, B) be at -10 and die but the body be teleported, or C) teleport at the 'moment' they hit 20 HP, thereby teleporting and staying at 20 HP?

I've heard C is correct, but aren't sure if that's RAW or not.

[Eldariel]

Is it legit to have a Contingency such as "When I reach 20 HP, teleport me to x", and it works during HP loss?

That's phrased poorly. What I mean is... if a wizard has 30 HP left, and takes 40 damage, would they A) be at -10 and die, B) be at -10 and die but the body be teleported, or C) teleport at the 'moment' they hit 20 HP, thereby teleporting and staying at 20 HP?

I've heard C is correct, but aren't sure if that's RAW or not.

You take damage in chunks so no. It's not taken 1 HP at a time. Better just trigger it to an attack or something and get outta there before you get hit for 40 in the first place. You could however have Revivify Contingent on you dying and then wear an armor with Healing ability so if you ever die you get returned to life immediately and healed back to operational HP.

[JeenLeen]

You take damage in chunks so no. It's not taken 1 HP at a time. Better just trigger it to an attack or something and get outta there before you get hit for 40 in the first place. You could however have Revivify Contingent on you dying and then wear an armor with Healing ability so if you ever die you get returned to life immediately and healed back to operational HP.

Could you set a contingency to activate when "I am attacked by an attack that would do x amount of damage"? I heard one debate about how intelligent the contingency spell is, i.e., can it activate on things the player is ignorant of. Lesser example: a contingency to Invisibility Purge if someone invisible sneaks up on me.

Note that I'm saying such should be legit uses of the spell, but I'm curious of it from a powergaming perspective.

[Segev]

It occurs to me that, even with the feat from PF that makes Paladin self-buffs a swift action, a paladin may want a string of buffs to all trigger at once. However, being AFB at the moment and not having time to troll the PFSRD, I am turning to the assemblage of erudite experts here: If a paladin were to pick up Craft Contingent Spell, what would you suggest he craft on himself and his holy mount to be triggered when he activates, say, Smite Evil?

[Segev]

Could you set a contingency to activate when "I am attacked by an attack that would do x amount of damage"? I heard one debate about how intelligent the contingency spell is, i.e., can it activate on things the player is ignorant of. Lesser example: a contingency to Invisibility Purge if someone invisible sneaks up on me.

Note that I'm saying such should be legit uses of the spell, but I'm curious of it from a powergaming perspective.
While I don't think the spell or the feat are fooled by illusions specifically, they cannot trigger on game mechanical esoterica. "When somebody invisible attacks me, cast Invisibility Purge" would work. "When I am about to take lethal wounds, teleport me to my base," would work (but note that "lethal wounds" would likely translate as "damage that is not nonlethal"). "When I am about to be knocked out" wouldn't work simply because it can't predict the future. IT can tell when you're just about to be sliced by a dagger or caught in a fireball, but it can't tell if either will knock you out.

Of interest is that you can also add extra triggering stipulations. I am fond of Indomitability worded as "when I am hit by lethal damage," and another triggered by "when I have fewer than two contingent intomitabilities and no indomitability active on me, and am hit by lethal damage," and another by "when I have fewer than 3 contingent..."

So that the first one triggers when I take damage, the third one triggers if that one's already gone and I take damage, the second one after that...

This ensures that, for however many contingent Indomitabilities I set up, I can't be knocked below 1 hp.

[(Un)Inspired]

It occurs to me that, even with the feat from PF that makes Paladin self-buffs a swift action, a paladin may want a string of buffs to all trigger at once. However, being AFB at the moment and not having time to troll the PFSRD, I am turning to the assemblage of erudite experts here: If a paladin were to pick up Craft Contingent Spell, what would you suggest he craft on himself and his holy mount to be triggered when he activates, say, Smite Evil?

I think it's a bit of a waste to burn so many resources just on buffing but if I was a paladin who wanted to contingent buff I would cast heroics, haste, mirror image, blur, fly, and maybe shield.

[Valtu]

With 20 Crafted Celerities and the Contingency-spell, a level 20 character can have 21 standard actions available as a free action. . . .(snip) . . . . Also, Celerity is stupid (as is Anticipatory Strike, Synchronity and their ilk).


I thought Celerity left you dazed until the end of your next turn. Wouldn't that keep you from chaining them together? Or would the contingent Celerities take effect so suddenly that you'd skip the dazed status and just be dazed for 20 rounds all at once after the encounter was (hopefully) over?

Oh, and do you mean Celerity is stupid, as in broken, or stupid like. . .actually stupid, etc? hahaha

[TroubleBrewing]

You take damage in chunks so no. It's not taken 1 HP at a time. Better just trigger it to an attack or something and get outta there before you get hit for 40 in the first place. You could however have Revivify Contingent on you dying and then wear an armor with Healing ability so if you ever die you get returned to life immediately and healed back to operational HP.

Ooo, and then a Contingent Word of Recall set to go off whenever the armor's healing ability goes off! Boom! Problem solved! The problem, in this case, being death.

[Killer Angel]

Ooo, and then a Contingent Word of Recall set to go off whenever the armor's healing ability goes off! Boom! Problem solved! The problem, in this case, being death.

There's always another contingency with revify. :smallwink:

[Person_Man]

In theory you could also just surround yourself with a bunch of followers/minions, and have them Ready actions to attack anyone who potentially threatens you, cast Dispel Magic multiple times on the target, and/or pick you up and carry you away in teams, or whatever. I mean, that's the whole point of having guards in the first place, right? Some evil Wizard teleports into the main hall of the castle, and a few dozen mooks all attack him at once with various special counter measures, while the Secret Service gets you out of there. It's not as potent as Contingency Word of Recall, but it's not like having a Contingency action advantage is some kind of game breaking mechanic that can't be overcome.

[Segev]

I think it's a bit of a waste to burn so many resources just on buffing but if I was a paladin who wanted to contingent buff I would cast heroics, haste, mirror image, blur, fly, and maybe shield.

It may well be. Though I was actually looking at it from a Paladin using the feat on himself sort of perspective, so I was looking for Paladin buffs rather than "just" any spells at all.

[captain fubar]

not only will it break action economy when you can spend daily resources now for benefit when you need it, but a contingency can be triggered off of conditions that your character isn't even aware of.
further more your contingency might even hold something from a scroll that would otherwise be unreliable when you needed it urgently.

[Icewraith]

Does greater shadow evocation not get around the "only one contingency" limit in the spell's text? I know it bypasses the material component.

[(Un)Inspired]

It may well be. Though I was actually looking at it from a Paladin using the feat on himself sort of perspective, so I was looking for Paladin buffs rather than "just" any spells at all.

The spells I suggested are potential paladin spells.

[Segev]

The spells I suggested are potential paladin spells.

By what mechanism? I assume some feats or PrC tricks?

Shield, Fly, Haste...I think these are not on the list. (I could be mistaken, though.)

[(Un)Inspired]

By what mechanism? I assume some feats or PrC tricks?

Shield, Fly, Haste...I think these are not on the list. (I could be mistaken, though.)

The incredibly cool Sword of the Arcane Order feat.

[Adverb]

Craft Contingent Spell is great because it's Turing complete.

[Segev]

Craft Contingent Spell is great because it's Turing complete.

o_O

I can honestly say I never expected to see THAT claim made.

[Icewraith]

o_O

I can honestly say I never expected to see THAT claim made.

I... don't think that works. Craft Contingent spell cannot compute functions with arbitrarily large arguments, because the DM and other players will beat your head in with the nearest book after a finite amount of time.

[(Un)Inspired]

I... don't think that works. Craft Contingent spell cannot compute functions with arbitrarily large arguments, because the DM and other players will beat your head in with the nearest book after a finite amount of time.

I like picturing a DM and serval players teaming up to all bash one players head in with PHBs and a DMG.

[Icewraith]

I like picturing a DM and serval players teaming up to all bash one players head in with PHBs and a DMG.

I think it might work in absence of the context of a D&D game and rule zero. In theory, if you can get contingent spells that re-invoke themselves (as opposed to spell traps, which would be Turing complete I think) you could set up a Turing machine using craft contingent spell and magic mouth.

Thanks to the commoner railgun effect, such a machine would always take six seconds to return a result.

[Qwertystop]

Craft Contingent Spell is great because it's Turing complete.

Walk me through this?

[Icewraith]

Walk me through this?

Craft Contingent Spell works on if-then statements. You could in theory craft a contingent greater arcane fusion containing (spell effect that triggers other contingencies) and (sanctum spell etc contingent Greater Arcane Fusion and spell effect).

Setting up the particular spells would be akin to writing an algorithm for a function I suppose.

[VoxRationis]

Depending on the trigger spells you used, the mage casting it would look like the center of a fireworks factory accident.

Unless... you researched a series of technically distinct spells that had no effect besides being cast and being distinguishable from one another by the contingent spells.

[ryu]

Depending on the trigger spells you used, the mage casting it would look like the center of a fireworks factory accident.

Unless... you researched a series of technically distinct spells that had no effect besides being cast and being distinguishable from one another by the contingent spells.

Prestidigitation to make cheap objects with distinct images on them. Alternatively silent images.

[VoxRationis]

Cheaper than researching a series of new spells. Still, this would be the most expensive computer per calculation ever. I mean, the cost of each contingent spell, plus the sheer number you'd need to calculate anything but basic arithmetic...

Why did the developers think to put in a limit on Contingency but not on contingent spells? It seems odd that they'd forget a way to reduce abuse in later books...

[ryu]

Cheaper than researching a series of new spells. Still, this would be the most expensive computer per calculation ever. I mean, the cost of each contingent spell, plus the sheer number you'd need to calculate anything but basic arithmetic...

Why did the developers think to put in a limit on Contingency but not on contingent spells? It seems odd that they'd forget a way to reduce abuse in later books...

Ambrosia. The computer is free because the necessary tools to craft are actually profitable to acquire, and time is easily made free with minimal investment.

[Icewraith]

Prestidigitation to make cheap objects with distinct images on them. Alternatively silent images.

Magic mouth. Your logic operates on "when the words X are spoken", with different triggers and a re-cast of the contingent magic mouth under the same trigger conditions. Of course, someone shouting the correct words will mess with your magical turing machine, but if you rely on physical objects changes in the local environment would do much more permanent harm (however so would a single good dispel or disjunction).

One thing you could do is have a large number of small cubes stacked on each other or next to each other, the surface of each cube is either clean or soiled, and contingent prestidigitation spells target a particular face of that cube. If the surface is clean the face's state is zero, if it is soiled the face's state is one. It may only be doable with entire small objects as targets of the prestidigitation spell, but if you can get it to target tiny surfaces you could have a surprisingly large amount of memory just by etching a tiny grid onto a flat stone (stone shape!) and stacking them.

Heck you could take a massive obelisk, hollow out the inside, put your grid in there and seal the bottom so your memory is mostly immune to effects from weather and incautious adventurers. Depending on how fine you can get the stone shape and how big you can make the obelisk, you could end up with a massive obelisk with several "racks" of etched stone on the inside to vastly increase the amount of usable surface area.

Is there a way to do this without arcane fusion shenanigans and without having to re-make your computer from scratch every time you want it to do something, without using self-resetting spell traps?

[ryu]

Magic mouth. Your logic operates on "when the words X are spoken", with different triggers and a re-cast of the contingent magic mouth under the same trigger conditions. Of course, someone shouting the correct words will mess with your magical turing machine, but if you rely on physical objects changes in the local environment would do much more permanent harm (however so would a single good dispel or disjunction).

One thing you could do is have a large number of small cubes stacked on each other or next to each other, the surface of each cube is either clean or soiled, and contingent prestidigitation spells target a particular face of that cube. If the surface is clean the face's state is zero, if it is soiled the face's state is one. It may only be doable with entire small objects as targets of the prestidigitation spell, but if you can get it to target tiny surfaces you could have a surprisingly large amount of memory just by etching a tiny grid onto a flat stone (stone shape!) and stacking them.

Heck you could take a massive obelisk, hollow out the inside, put your grid in there and seal the bottom so your memory is mostly immune to effects from weather and incautious adventurers. Depending on how fine you can get the stone shape and how big you can make the obelisk, you could end up with a massive obelisk with several "racks" of etched stone on the inside to vastly increase the amount of usable surface area.

Is there a way to do this without arcane fusion shenanigans and without having to re-make your computer from scratch every time you want it to do something, without using self-resetting spell traps?

Contingent ice assasin creation at the end of cycles given the directive to reset the whole system to base functioning state before reporting to the wizard who created the system to begin with?

[VoxRationis]

Ambrosia. The computer is free because the necessary tools to craft are actually profitable to acquire, and time is easily made free with minimal investment.

What's ambrosia in-game, and what book is it from? How is it profitable to acquire, considering that it costs at least 550 gp per contingent spell and no one is going to be paying for this computer unless you have a really rich and really bored noble patron?

[ryu]

What's ambrosia in-game, and what book is it from? How is it profitable to acquire, considering that it costs at least 550 gp per contingent spell and no one is going to be paying for this computer unless you have a really rich and really bored noble patron?

Ambrosia is essentially liquid joy. You obtain it by casting distilled joy from the Book of Exalted Deeds on people. In my method this is done by planting the spell in wondrous architecture beds stationed within a chain of brothels owned by the caster. Ambrosia can be used to replace XP in crafting or to pay XP costs in casting. It's also a viable commodity to sell if money is desired over XP substitute.

[VoxRationis]

I wasn't even thinking about XP costs; I was referring to the gp costs. But thank you for the lesson.
Book of Exalted Deeds, huh? Isn't that 3.0? Also, would the forces of Good really approve of making XP farms out of brothels?

[ryu]

I wasn't even thinking about XP costs; I was referring to the gp costs. But thank you for the lesson.
Book of Exalted Deeds, huh? Isn't that 3.0? Also, would the forces of Good really approve of making XP farms out of brothels?

Sources that were not changed in update to 3.5 are still explicitely legal in their 3.0 forms. Further I don't actually need the approval of any forces of good to plant this spell in wondrous architecture. It's just another spell added to the wizard list by the book. Also GP is even easier to trick out than substitute XP. Just cast genesis to make a demiplane composed entirely of high quality gold or platinum if preferred.

[Karnith]

Book of Exalted Deeds, huh? Isn't that 3.0?
The Book of Exalted Deeds was released in October of 2003, or roughly three months after the 3.5 Core books were published. It's a 3.5 book, albeit one of the earliest.

[ryu]

The Book of Exalted Deeds was released in October of 2003, or roughly three months after the 3.5 Core books were published. It's a 3.5 book, albeit one of the earliest.

Also it still wouldn't matter if it were 3.0. Just pointing that out.

[Icewraith]

Contingent ice assasin creation at the end of cycles given the directive to reset the whole system to base functioning state before reporting to the wizard who created the system to begin with?

Hmm... the "have someone else do it" approach. I was thinking more of avoiding having to re-cast the entire system after every time you run it, but I can't think of any other way to do it without using resetting spell traps or arcane fusion abuse.

If you made your sequential commands simple enough I wonder if you could use spectres or other immobile, incorporeal undead capable of speech?

BOED is very odd, it was technically published after 3.5 but has a number of 3.0 mechanics in it IIRC.

[Karnith]

BOED is very odd, it was technically published after 3.5 but has a number of 3.0 mechanics in it IIRC.
Pretty much all of the early 3.5 books had some 3.0 relics in them; Draconomicon had the 3.0 Epic Dragon progression (feats every 4 HD, for instance), Complete Warrior had the Invisible Blade PrC have Innuendo as a class skill, and so on.

[DracoDei]

Also, would the forces of Good really approve of making XP farms out of brothels?
Not in any campaign world I would play in...

[Rubik]

Not in any campaign world I would play in...There are Good gods in the game which run brothels in their temples (or run their temples in brothels, either/or), such as Sune, the goddess of pleasure and love, in the Forgotten Realms.

Sex (even prostitution) is Neutral, honestly. It can be perverted for Evil ends (succubi) or used to enhance one's relationships with people one loves (basically any happy marriage). Just because it's illegal in some places doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Heck, there are places in the US where prostitution is legal and regulated, just like any other industry, and America is often one of the most stupidly puritanical places on Earth.

[Segev]

The reason - in most Christian religions, at least - that Prostitution is considered "evil" is the same as why Hindus view eating beef as evil: Sex (between humans) is a sacred act between a husband and wife, an act of creation that touches upon the divine power of God Himself to create human life. Doing it outside of wedlock - and particularly as a tawdry commodity - defiles the sacred act.

In times when prostitution was actively made illegal, it was thought that having women (and men) who advertised the sale of out-of-wedlock sex would encourage this bad behavior, and so measures were taken to remove the "attractive nuisance."

Since the nation as a whole tends not to view sex as something sacred anymore, but rather seems determined to debauch itself wholly, and there is ample room to question what the difference between a "kept woman" (or "kept man") and a prostitute is, aside from the duration of the retainer, and it gets even less pleasant to discuss when one starts throwing it around as an insult on the basis of whether or not it's "love" or "just sex and favors..."

Add all of that and the abuses that befall the women (and men) who engage in it as an illegal activity, and I could get behind legalizing and regulating it like any profession with certain health code requirements.

Doesn't mean I like all the lewd imagery that is so profligate in modern culture and society, nor that I'd want to see prostitution advertised on prime time TV or billboards or the like, but without the moral underpinnings surrounding the importance of marriage before sex, the illegality of prostitution strikes me as foolish.


In D&D, where sex and marriage are less commonly linked (if only because D&D is a product of our times, when sex is often a prequel to marriage and not uncommonly a "one night stand" between the brawny hero and the merchant's daughter), and there are "good goddesses of sex," having good-aligned brothels makes perfect sense, so long as one accepts that out-of-wedlock sex can be "good aligned."



Godlings and demigods, how did this thread move from contingencies to sex and prostitution? o_O

[Rubik]

Godlings and demigods, how did this thread move from contingencies to sex and prostitution? o_OEverything in life boils down to sex eventually.

[Vogonjeltz]

This sounds like a Rube Goldberg machine. Too complicated for too little return.

[unseenmage]

Somewhere there was a thread about making Crawling Tattoos or even just regular old Psionic Tattoos into a computing machine but it proved to be too complicated to conceive when we got to the point of psionic powers making creatures who would carry tattoos around to each other to enable more fluid calculating. Or at least for me it did.

This thread reminds me of that thread.

[Eldariel]

Everything in life boils down to sex eventually.

Oh come now, sex is just a source of pleasure; most functions of cognitive beings revolve around pleasure. Things could be different in a reproduction economy, granted, but we haven't had one for millenia.

[ryu]

Oh come now, sex is just a source of pleasure; most functions of cognitive beings revolve around pleasure. Things could be different in a reproduction economy, granted, but we haven't had one for millenia.

Which is what makes it entirely appropriate as a possible course of action in a D&D world. Also good economic tool. It's actually harder to create a working counterfeit than the actual proposed currency. It's like barter only based entirely on a specific service in exchange for goods.

[Rubik]

Oh come now, sex is just a source of pleasure; most functions of cognitive beings revolve around pleasure. Things could be different in a reproduction economy, granted, but we haven't had one for millennia.Living creatures generally come into being via one reproductive process or another, and for most multicellular creatures, that involves sex (parthenogenesis notwithstanding). Thus, for anything involving a multicellular creature on any level, my statement holds true.

[TuggyNE]

Living creatures generally come into being via one reproductive process or another, and for most multicellular creatures, that involves sex (parthenogenesis notwithstanding). Thus, for anything involving a multicellular creature on any level, my statement holds true.

Not that this is especially on topic, but that's begging the question: you're assuming that life is about sex (by which you mean, chiefly, reproduction), and to prove it pointing out that if you assume life is about reproduction, then because multicelled organisms reproduce by sex, life is about sex.

But since this assumption is not held by certain others in the thread, the argument fails.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Oh no, sex economics thread derail! Luckily for me I have a Contingent Thread Post for just this situation, so I can beg you guys to stop during your own actions!

[Rubik]

Not that this is especially on topic, but that's begging the question: you're assuming that life is about sex (by which you mean, chiefly, reproduction), and to prove it pointing out that if you assume life is about reproduction, then because multicelled organisms reproduce by sex, life is about sex.

But since this assumption is not held by certain others in the thread, the argument fails.I said "everything in life boils down to sex." Since everything in life involves life in some form or other, and life stems from reproduction, I have no idea how you can argue against that statement.

[Vrock_Summoner]

I said "everything in life boils down to sex." Since everything in life involves life in some form or other, and life stems from reproduction, I have no idea how you can argue against that statement.

Well, someone went and made their Save :smallannoyed:

[Rubik]

Well, someone went and made their Save :smallannoyed:I Iron Heart Surged it away.

[Windstorm]

so here is an interesting question: Is it bad DMing to ask that contingencies be written out as If-then statements on a sheet? :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

so here is an interesting question: Is it bad DMing to ask that contingencies be written out as If-then statements on a sheet? :smallbiggrin:

Am I still allowed to be as specific as I please without convoluted logic tracks hidden inside singular contingencies? If so I see no issue with that as it's just formatting.

[Vogonjeltz]

Am I still allowed to be as specific as I please without convoluted logic tracks hidden inside singular contingencies? If so I see no issue with that as it's just formatting.

The spell requires simplicity doesn't it?


The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general.


If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

[ryu]

The spell requires simplicity doesn't it?

I didn't say not simple. I said specific. Specificity in terms of think the activation code of the specific contingency to be used. Best to make the codes in a language that isn't the mother tongue to avoid somehow accidentally thinking it. Preferably something that uses an entirely different alphabet.

[kernal42]

I said "everything in life boils down to sex." Since everything in life involves life in some form or other, and life stems from reproduction, I have no idea how you can argue against that statement.

Probably because not all reproduction derives from sex.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.