Obtaining Shapechange as MTMOG

[Reshy]

Just asking a general question, but how can I get a Wizard to get access to Shapechange pre-epic as a Master Transmogrifist? Trying to build a wizard that specialized in Transmutation and turning herself and others into big stompy monsters. However I'm having difficulties figuring out how to obtain the 9th level spells with the MTmog's penalization of casting ability. Anyone know how to get to that without being a Kobold Sorceror?

[(Un)Inspired]

This looks like a job for sublime chord!

[A_S]

This looks like a job for sublime chord!
Still quite difficult, unfortunately; Master Transmogrifist loses caster levels at 1, 4, 7, and 10, and it requires Polymorph to enter. You'd have to somehow squeeze 7 levels in before entering Sublime Chord at 11 (or else you unavoidably lose two levels of SC casting, which means you lose out on 9ths).

I can't, off the top of my head, think of a way that doesn't involve extreme cheese.

[A_S]

Hahahaha, here's the least cheesy way I can think of:

Beguiler 1/Wizard 7/Bard 1/Master Transmogrifist 1/Sublime Chord 1/Master Transmogrifist +9

Take Arcane Disciple (Scalykind), applied to your Beguiler casting, and Versatile Spellcaster. Since Beguilers know their entire spell list, and Versatile Spellcaster doesn't say you have to sacrifice spell slots from the same spellcasting class as the spell you're casting with it, you can sacrifice two level 8 Sublime Chord slots (assuming you have the Cha to have a bonus level 8 slot) to cast Shapechange, which you know as a Beguiler spell via Arcane Disciple.

It should tell you something that that's the least cheesy path I could come up with.

[Reshy]

Hahahaha, here's the least cheesy way I can think of:

Beguiler 1/Wizard 7/Bard 1/Master Transmogrifist 1/Sublime Chord 1/Master Transmogrifist +9

Take Arcane Disciple (Scalykind), applied to your Beguiler casting, and Versatile Spellcaster. Since Beguilers know their entire spell list, and Versatile Spellcaster doesn't say you have to sacrifice spell slots from the same spellcasting class as the spell you're casting with it, you can sacrifice two level 8 Sublime Chord slots (assuming you have the Cha to have a bonus level 8 slot) to cast Shapechange, which you know as a Beguiler spell via Arcane Disciple.

It should tell you something that that's the least cheesy path I could come up with.


That's 21 levels if I'm counting right, I don't think we're doing epics.

[Fable Wright]

Just asking a general question, but how can I get a Wizard to get access to Shapechange pre-epic as a Master Transmogrifist? Trying to build a wizard that specialized in Transmutation and turning herself and others into big stompy monsters. However I'm having difficulties figuring out how to obtain the 9th level spells with the MTmog's penalization of casting ability. Anyone know how to get to that without being a Kobold Sorceror?

You're asking how to get 9th level spells as a 16th level Wizard.

Versatile Spellcaster + Uncanny Forethought Transmutation Domain Wizard is cheesy, but gets the job done. You have access to one level of spells above your own (via Versatile Spellcaster and having your two highest level spells reserved for Uncanny Forethought) and know all your domain spells, including the ones a level above your normal cap. Unfortunately, it also sets off a chain as early as 1st level where you have access to spells one level higher, get the domain spell granted as a result, then bonus spells, and then spells one level up from that etc. until you've got up to 4-5th level spells at level one, but as long as you're not eligible to get bonus spells above your regularly allocated level you're good.

[Aliek]

Perhaps Artificer might work? AFB right now, but you can get 9th level spells as a 15th level artificer, so it might just do

[Reshy]

You're asking how to get 9th level spells as a 16th level Wizard.

Versatile Spellcaster + Uncanny Forethought Transmutation Domain Wizard is cheesy, but gets the job done. You have access to one level of spells above your own (via Versatile Spellcaster and having your two highest level spells reserved for Uncanny Forethought) and know all your domain spells, including the ones a level above your normal cap. Unfortunately, it also sets off a chain as early as 1st level where you have access to spells one level higher, get the domain spell granted as a result, then bonus spells, and then spells one level up from that etc. until you've got up to 4-5th level spells at level one, but as long as you're not eligible to get bonus spells above your regularly allocated level you're good.


Can you explain how this works exactly?

[Urpriest]

Perhaps Artificer might work? AFB right now, but you can get 9th level spells as a 15th level artificer, so it might just do

Can't qualify for Master Transmorgrifist, though.

[Rebel7284]

Shadow Templar from Dark Sun is like an arcane Ur Priest.

[Necroticplague]

Can you explain how this works exactly?I don't know that exact one, but I know a similar with Elven Generalist.

Domain wizard gives you access to a domain (in this case, transmutation). You know all the spells in your domain, even if you can't cast them yet.Elven Generalist gives you an extra spell slot of the highest level you can cast (with being abile to cast meaning you have an appropriate slot and know an appropriate spell to go in that slot).. Versatile spellcaster lets you sacrafice two low-level slots for one of the next level up. So your a 1st level elven wizared, with a few level1 spells. You Versatile Spellcast them up to level 2 slot. Now your highest level of spell is second level, so generalist gives an extra 2nd level slot. Use the slot you got already plus this new 2nd level slot to versatile spellcast up tp a 3rd level slot, which your Generalist gives you a new one of now. Repeat until you can cast level9 spells.

[A_S]

That's 21 levels if I'm counting right, I don't think we're doing epics.
Uh, you're not counting right. It's 20. Beguiler 1/Wizard 9/MT 10 works too, as long as you rule that Wizard spell slots can be used to power Versatile Spellcaster.

The Domain Generalist trick (or its variant posted above) is the cheesier route I was trying to avoid.


I don't know that exact one, but I know a similar with Elven Generalist.
The version DM of Darkness posted is the same trick, he's just using Int bonus slots instead of Elven Generalist slots. Generalist is generally used because it's hard to get 26 int at level 1 on an elf, which would be needed to get level 1 9ths without Generalist.

[A_S]

Found a better way. It's not the kind of thing I'd expect to fly at every table, but it at least avoids the most questionable of rules readings and the most egregious of known cheese. I'd say it's more elegant than either of the solutions proposed so far.

-----

Race: Loredrake Steel Dragon Wyrmling (4 RHD, LA +2)

Deity: Finder Wyvernspur (or any other Neutral deity who grants Scalykind as a domain)

Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (must match deity)

Levels:
1-4 - Steel Dragon RHD - Precocious Apprentice (alter self), Eschew Materials
5 - Master Transmogrifist 1
6 - Master Transmogrifist 2 - EWP (bastard sword)
7 - Master Transmogrifist 3
8 - Master Transmogrifist 4
9 - Master Transmogrifist 5 - Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
10 - Master Transmogrifist 6
11 - Divine Crusader (scalykind)
12 - Master Transmogrifist 7
13 - Master Transmogrifist 8
14 - Master Transmogrifist 9
15 - Master Transmogrifist 10
16 - Sorcerer 1
17 - Sorcerer 2
18 - Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis 1

Explanations:
Steel Dragon Wyrmlings can cast Polymorph as a SLA, which meets specific "can cast X spell" PrC prerequisites, per the rules on p.72 of Complete Arcane. Combine that with Precocious Apprentice for Alter Self, and you meet the spell requirements for Master Transmogrifist right out of the box.
Despite the name, Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis doesn't actually require you to worship Chronepsis, which is good since Chronepsis doesn't offer the Scalykind domain.
Dispassionate Watcher's "Divine Conversion" class feature makes you lose racial Sorcerer spellcasting, but only racial casting, and converts it on a one-for-one basis into levels in a divine spellcasting class you have (arguably every divine spellcasting class you have, but we're not using that trick here). In this case, that means you lose the 3 levels of Sorc casting you have from your RHD, plus the 6 levels you have from Master Transmogrifist (which advanced your dragon casting), and gain 9 levels of Divine Crusader casting. Fortunately, you don't lose the casting from your two actual levels of Sorcerer. This is important because although you can still cast Polymorph as a racial SLA, you need to keep at least minimal Sorcerer casting (along with Precocious Apprentice) to be able to cast Alter Self. Since Complete Arcane is one of the books that specifically says you have to keep PrC prerequisites to keep their class features, that's a big deal.
Congratulations! You're now a dragon who casts Alter Self as a level 2 Sorcerer, Polymorph as a racial SLA, and Shapechange as a level 10 Divine Crusader, with all 10 levels of Master Transmogrifist class features.
Sources for the important bits:
Steel Dragon: Here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) (LA is in Dragons of Faerun web enhancement, I think)
Loredrake: Dragons of Eberron
Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis: Draconomicon
Divine Crusader: Complete Divine
This use of Dispassionate Watcher: Ripped off from this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15314961&postcount=346) by Vaz

[TroubleBrewing]

Good lord, all that work just to be able to use the PrC in the first place?

Wouldn't it just be easier to houserule that you don't lose that spellcasting level at MT 10?

[Rebel7284]

A_S, that is beautiful.

[A_S]

Wouldn't it just be easier to houserule that you don't lose that spellcasting level at MT 10?
What is this "easier" you speak of?

You have an IC trophy in your signature. You must have some appreciation for the frame of mind that looks at a situation like this, where a ludicrously complicated workaround is needed to use a PrC's class features, and instead of saying "well that's some crappy design right there," says "ooh this looks like fun!"


A_S, that is beautiful.
Thanks :) !

[Fouredged Sword]

I would try to get it using loredrake if you are going to go through all that cheese anyway. Less dips and hoops that way.

Venerable Spellhording Loredrake Dragonwraught Kobold wizard 6 casts as a 9th level wizard, that fills in 3 dead casting levels, allowing you to take MT with only one level lost of spellcasting progression.

It's is like using gouda to make a sandwich, functional, but cheesy.

[Urpriest]

What is this "easier" you speak of?

You have an IC trophy in your signature. You must have some appreciation for the frame of mind that looks at a situation like this, where a ludicrously complicated workaround is needed to use a PrC's class features, and instead of saying "well that's some crappy design right there," says "ooh this looks like fun!"


Indeed.

Now let's see you finish Magelord pre-epic. :smalltongue:

[Rebel7284]

Indeed.

Now let's see you finish Magelord pre-epic. :smalltongue:

Doesn't the Combat Medic prestige class make that comparatively easy?

[Fouredged Sword]

OHHH! I got that one.

Kobold Wizard 6 / Rogue 2 / Magelord 10 / Unseen Seer 2!

Spellhording Loredrake Dragonwraught kobold wizard 6 counts as a 9th level wizard, getting 5th level spells, and you can pick up spell mastery and signture spell at 3rd and 6th level. Martial wizard lets you pick up improved initiative and Weapon Focus (ray) by 5th level. Then you simply have to dip rogue for evasion and finish out Mage lord.

[Rebel7284]

Non-Lawful, Non-evil
Glimmerskin Halfling Wizard 5[Fighter Bonus feats]/Combat Medic 4/Magelord 10 does it with minimal cheese.
Feats:
1. Combat Casting, Wizard Bonus: Improved Initiative
3. Weapon Focus[Ray]
5. Wizard Bonus: Dodge
6. Spell Mastery
9. Signature Spell

edit: My build is missing a feat for Divine Disciple. Many ways to get an extra feat though, even a fighter dip works.

[Aliek]

If going that crazy cool divine crusader route, but you don't want to use a steel dragon or anything, try the transformation domain from Races of Eberron(Requires you to be a shapeshifter, but...)
All in all, it's pretty flavorful, with Alter Self, Polymorph, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange. A couple extras in there, and a +1 to your CL for transmutation spells too!

Edit: Ah, I see you'll have to do some entry shenanigans for the 'cast polymorph' part so... uh... yeah.

[Fable Wright]

The version DM of Darkness posted is the same trick, he's just using Int bonus slots instead of Elven Generalist slots. Generalist is generally used because it's hard to get 26 int at level 1 on an elf, which would be needed to get level 1 9ths without Generalist.
I recommended using the Int bonus route because it comes online later and grants less spell levels when it does, but yeah. As long as you don't pump Int as much as normal and/or take Uncanny Forethought late, it's significantly less gamebreaking than Domain Generalist.


Indeed.

Now let's see you finish Magelord pre-epic. :smalltongue:
Incarnate 1 dip + Open Least Chakra (Feet) and Wizard 9 with Fighter Bonus Feats. Your Impulse Boots granted by the Soulmeld class feature grant Evasion. You even have a few flex feat slots to enter other PrCs before Magelord.

[Necroticplague]

Incarnate 1 dip + Open Least Chakra (Feet) and Wizard 9 with Fighter Bonus Feats. Your Impulse Boots granted by the Soulmeld class feature grant Evasion. You even have a few flex feat slots to enter other PrCs before Magelord.

Lets see if I can get something in less levels.

Human,stats: con and wis at least 13 and int at least 15.
1:incarnate1.feats:open least chakra, improved initiative
2.elven generalist wizard1.feat: spell mastery (use acf that gets rid of familiar for feat)
3.fighter1.feats: signature spell, weapon focus (ray)
4.generic warrior1.feat:sanctum spell
5.generic warrior2.feat:heighten spell.
6.generic expert1.feats:earth sense, earth spell.
7.generic expert2.feat:precocious apprentice.

Wow, for all the frankensteining I did to put that together, it only shaves a few levels.

[Nihilarian]

Indeed.

Now let's see you finish Magelord pre-epic. :smalltongue:Human Wizard (Fighter Bonus feat) 7/Fighter 1/Spelldancer 2/Magelord 10 just barely gets enough feats. With flaws you can drop the fighter level.

Loredelver and Combat Medic get evasion without losing too much spellcasting.

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries gets evasion in 1 level.

[RedMage125]

I don't know that exact one, but I know a similar with Elven Generalist.

Domain wizard gives you access to a domain (in this case, transmutation). You know all the spells in your domain, even if you can't cast them yet.Elven Generalist gives you an extra spell slot of the highest level you can cast (with being abile to cast meaning you have an appropriate slot and know an appropriate spell to go in that slot).. Versatile spellcaster lets you sacrafice two low-level slots for one of the next level up. So your a 1st level elven wizared, with a few level1 spells. You Versatile Spellcast them up to level 2 slot. Now your highest level of spell is second level, so generalist gives an extra 2nd level slot. Use the slot you got already plus this new 2nd level slot to versatile spellcast up tp a 3rd level slot, which your Generalist gives you a new one of now. Repeat until you can cast level9 spells.
You know that this straight-up does not work, right?

General Specialist is part of the Elven Wizard Racial Substitution level, and it only gives you an extra slot per day of your highest level when you prepare spells. Once you prepare that spell, that's what your prepared spell for the day is.

Claiming what you do would be like claiming that 2 people can essentially fly because one can stand on the other's shoulders, then pick up his friend and put him on HIS shoulders, and wash-rinse-repeat.

Also, Wizard spellcasting does not meet the prerequisite for Versatile Spellcasting, which is "ability to spontaneously cast spells". Which is why most of the suggestions here involve things like at least one level of beguiler or sorcerer spellcasting.


Lets see if I can get something in less levels.

Human,stats: con and wis at least 13 and int at least 15.
1:incarnate1.feats:open least chakra, improved initiative
2.elven generalist wizard1.feat: spell mastery (use acf that gets rid of familiar for feat)
3.fighter1.feats: signature spell, weapon focus (ray)
4.generic warrior1.feat:sanctum spell
5.generic warrior2.feat:heighten spell.
6.generic expert1.feats:earth sense, earth spell.
7.generic expert2.feat:precocious apprentice.

Wow, for all the frankensteining I did to put that together, it only shaves a few levels.

You can't have a Human take an Elven Racial Substitution Level for which the only prerequisites are explictly "must be an elf" and "must be a wizard".

Suggesting things that are not even REMOTELY legal isn't productive to the OP.

[otakumick]

OHHH! I got that one.

Kobold Wizard 6 / Rogue 2 / Magelord 10 / Unseen Seer 2!

Spellhording Loredrake Dragonwraught kobold wizard 6 counts as a 9th level wizard, getting 5th level spells, and you can pick up spell mastery and signture spell at 3rd and 6th level. Martial wizard lets you pick up improved initiative and Weapon Focus (ray) by 5th level. Then you simply have to dip rogue for evasion and finish out Mage lord.

pretty sure it would have to be Sorcerer 1 / Wizard 5 / Rogue 2 / Magelord 10 / Unseen Seer 2... have to actually have sorcerer casting to activate loredrake and spellhoarding... other than that, looks legit to me(if cheese filled... mmmm cheese)

[Necroticplague]

You know that this straight-up does not work, right?

General Specialist is part of the Elven Wizard Racial Substitution level, and it only gives you an extra slot per day of your highest level when you prepare spells. Once you prepare that spell, that's what your prepared spell for the day is.

Claiming what you do would be like claiming that 2 people can essentially fly because one can stand on the other's shoulders, then pick up his friend and put him on HIS shoulders, and wash-rinse-repeat.

Also, Wizard spellcasting does not meet the prerequisite for Versatile Spellcasting, which is "ability to spontaneously cast spells". Which is why most of the suggestions here involve things like at least one level of beguiler or sorcerer spellcasting.



You can't have a Human take an Elven Racial Substitution Level for which the only prerequisites are explictly "must be an elf" and "must be a wizard".

Suggesting things that are not even REMOTELY legal isn't productive to the OP.
Crap, looks like I'm mistaken on several counts. I thought part of having the domain meant spontaneous casting from it, qualifying you for versatile spellcaster.

And the particular build is an error: I added generalist to have another 2nd spell slot, forgot I was human. Looks like I'm batting 0 for 2.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You know that this straight-up does not work, right?

General Specialist is part of the Elven Wizard Racial Substitution level, and it only gives you an extra slot per day of your highest level when you prepare spells. Once you prepare that spell, that's what your prepared spell for the day is.

Claiming what you do would be like claiming that 2 people can essentially fly because one can stand on the other's shoulders, then pick up his friend and put him on HIS shoulders, and wash-rinse-repeat.

Also, Wizard spellcasting does not meet the prerequisite for Versatile Spellcasting, which is "ability to spontaneously cast spells". Which is why most of the suggestions here involve things like at least one level of beguiler or sorcerer spellcasting.

Wrong, Uncanny Forethough makes you an spontaneous caster at the cost of casting at -2 CL and as a full round action, besides every Wizard 5 can be a spontaneous caster since they can take the Spontaneous Divination ACF from CChamp.

[RedMage125]

Wrong, Uncanny Forethough makes you an spontaneous caster at the cost of casting at -2 CL and as a full round action, besides every Wizard 5 can be a spontaneous caster since they can take the Spontaneous Divination ACF from CChamp.

Okay, but Versatile Spellcaster only gives you that higher level spell slot AS YOU CAST, and it must be a KNOWN SPELL. So using that feat as a wizard requires you to have aquired (and succesfully scribed into your spellbook) a spell of a higher level, and that only works when you "sacrifice" 2 other spells to cast this "free" spell, which can only be one you already "know".

So it can't even be used by a level 1 sorcerer to cast a 2nd level spell, unless that sorc is also human and took arcane disciple (or some other means) to add more spells known. Because until then, they don't KNOW any 2nd level spells

[Necroticplague]

So it can't even be used by a level 1 sorcerer to cast a 2nd level spell, unless that sorc is also human and took arcane disciple (or some other means) to add more spells known. Because until then, they don't KNOW any 2nd level spells

With metamagic, it's easy enough to "know" a higher-level version of a spell you know. Heighten spell is the easiest, because it can be applied multiple times for the cost of only one feat.

Also, what's wrong with a wizard using RAW if they qualify? Sure, they haven't prepared this higher level slot, but they don't need to; they just sacrifice two prepared slots to cast spontaneously a level above those two.

[Aliek]

Someone once told me, sometimes simple is good.

How about... (Shadow)Human Wizard 9/Magelord 10 with LA buyoff? Get evasion by being a shadow creature, and bam!

[RedMage125]

With metamagic, it's easy enough to "know" a higher-level version of a spell you know. Heighten spell is the easiest, because it can be applied multiple times for the cost of only one feat.
Okay, but that's sacrificing TWO spell slots to cast one of the spells you can already cast, with a simple +1 to DC.


Also, what's wrong with a wizard using RAW if they qualify? Sure, they haven't prepared this higher level slot, but they don't need to; they just sacrifice two prepared slots to cast spontaneously a level above those two.

I meant using it as you prescribed with Elven Wizard RSL. You don't have that "higher level spell slot" until you actually CAST said spells as per the parameters of the feat. So, going with the 1st level character example, your RSL benefit from General Specialist does not suddenly give you a 3rd level spell slot, because the highest level spell you can cast is 1st, so GS gives you an extra 1st level spell. IF you had aquired a 2nd level spell through a scroll or captured spellbook, and scribed it into your spellbook (thus qualifying as a "spell known"), you could use VS to give up 2 1st level spells to cast this 2nd level spell. But again, only if you use Dusk Eclipse's suggestion of taking Uncanny Forethought, because without that feat, you are in violation of "a wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time", as per the Wizard class description in the PHB/SRD.

So General Specialist allows you to prepare and cast one additional spell, which would be whatever is your higest level when you prepare spells. It doesn't suddenly give you a "free" spell slot at the time you use VS to cast a higher level spell.

That is what I meant won't work.

[Fable Wright]

I meant using it as you prescribed with Elven Wizard RSL. You don't have that "higher level spell slot" until you actually CAST said spells as per the parameters of the feat. So, going with the 1st level character example, your RSL benefit from General Specialist does not suddenly give you a 3rd level spell slot, because the highest level spell you can cast is 1st, so GS gives you an extra 1st level spell. IF you had aquired a 2nd level spell through a scroll or captured spellbook, and scribed it into your spellbook (thus qualifying as a "spell known"), you could use VS to give up 2 1st level spells to cast this 2nd level spell. But again, only if you use Dusk Eclipse's suggestion of taking Uncanny Forethought, because without that feat, you are in violation of "a wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time", as per the Wizard class description in the PHB/SRD.

Fascinating thing about Domain Wizard: You know all the spells in the domain for free. Another fascinating thing: It isn't mutually exclusive with Elven Generalist.

[A_S]

So General Specialist allows you to prepare and cast one additional spell, which would be whatever is your higest level when you prepare spells. It doesn't suddenly give you a "free" spell slot at the time you use VS to cast a higher level spell.

That is what I meant won't work.
You are a level 1 Elven Generalist Domain Wizard with Uncanny Forethought and Versatile Spellcaster. What level is your Generalist slot when you prepare spells this morning?

Well, you have lots of level 1 spell slots, and Versatile Spellcaster lets you use them to cast level 2 spells, so you have a Domain bonus slot at level 2. That must mean your Generalist slot is level 2, right?

But wait, if that's true, then you have two level 2 slots (even before you prepare spells). That means you can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast level 3 spells, giving you a level 3 Domain bonus slot. So your Generalist slot must be level 3.

But wait, that means you have two level 3 spell slots (you still haven't prepared spells)! Using Versatile Spellcaster, that means you can cast level 4 spells...

-----

You get the idea. It is bootstrappy, in the sense that the Generalist slot is used to be able to cast each level of spells in turn, and then moves up, leaving the Domain bonus slot to self-qualify (you have the Domain slot because you can cast level X spells, but you can only cast level X spells because you still have the Domain slot). That's wonky, but it does work: There's no point in the logic chain at which there's a reason to stop for any non-arbitrary reason, and at no point have you lost the qualifications for anything you're using (because the Domain slot does self-qualify once it's in place).

Your "two people flying by standing on each others' shoulders" analogy is apt, but in the context of D&D 3.5 rules, it doesn't mean it doesn't work.

[RedMage125]

You are a level 1 Elven Generalist Domain Wizard with Uncanny Forethought and Versatile Spellcaster. What level is your Generalist slot when you prepare spells this morning?

Well, you have lots of level 1 spell slots, and Versatile Spellcaster lets you use them to cast level 2 spells, so you have a Domain bonus slot at level 2. That must mean your Generalist slot is level 2, right?

But wait, if that's true, then you have two level 2 slots (even before you prepare spells). That means you can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast level 3 spells, giving you a level 3 Domain bonus slot. So your Generalist slot must be level 3.

But wait, that means you have two level 3 spell slots (you still haven't prepared spells)! Using Versatile Spellcaster, that means you can cast level 4 spells...

-----

You get the idea. It is bootstrappy, in the sense that the Generalist slot is used to be able to cast each level of spells in turn, and then moves up, leaving the Domain bonus slot to self-qualify (you have the Domain slot because you can cast level X spells, but you can only cast level X spells because you still have the Domain slot). That's wonky, but it does work: There's no point in the logic chain at which there's a reason to stop for any non-arbitrary reason, and at no point have you lost the qualifications for anything you're using (because the Domain slot does self-qualify once it's in place).

Your "two people flying by standing on each others' shoulders" analogy is apt, but in the context of D&D 3.5 rules, it doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Actually, it DOES mean it does not work.

General Specialist gives you an extra slot to prepare and cast spells of your highest level spell available. Which, at level 1, is a 1st level spell.

The feat allows you when casting, to spend 2 1st level spell slots as a standard action to cast a 2nd level spell known. This does not mean you have a 2nd level spell slot. So no, you do not get a 2nd level spell slot via General Specialist. You also do not have a 2nd level Domain Slot.

The feat is a special exception that allows you to CAST a higher level spell, if it is known, by spending lower-level spell slots. That is not the same thing as "having a spell slot of that level available". You've still only got level 1 spell slots available, and therefore, your General Specialist extra spell slot is a level 1 spell. Once you prepare that for the day, that's the extra spell you've prepared.

The logic chain DOES stop, and it's not arbitrary.

Simple facts:
-General Specialist gives you an extra slot of the highest level you can cast.

-Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend 2 lower level slots to cast a higher level spell. This is NOT the same thing as "having a spell slot of that higher level", and ergo, does NOT allow the General Specialist extra slot to be of that higher spell level. It is a special and specific exception to the normal rules regarding spellcasting. This is what a good feat does, provides special ways in which one breaks the normal rules. The feat doesn't start some kind of cascading chain where a level 1 character can cast 9th level spells.

[Necroticplague]

Simple facts:
-General Specialist gives you an extra slot of the highest level you can cast.

-Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend 2 lower level slots to cast a higher level spell. This is NOT the same thing as "having a spell slot of that higher level", and ergo, does NOT allow the General Specialist extra slot to be of that higher spell level. It is a special and specific exception to the normal rules regarding spellcasting. This is what a good feat does, provides special ways in which one breaks the normal rules. The feat doesn't start some kind of cascading chain where a level 1 character can cast 9th level spells.

Versatile spellcaster does let you cast a higher level spell, moving the slot up.

Although, I think you could do the same thing with Sanctum spell instead of Versatile spellcasting. Makes the spell one level higher without a higher spell slot, so a similar chain could occur.The sanctum [level1spell]is a level 2 spell, moving the generalist slot up to level2. Which you can then use for sanctum [level2 domain spell] at level3. Repeat till level9. Actually less of a headache, due to easier prereqs.

[RedMage125]

Versatile spellcaster does let you cast a higher level spell, moving the slot up.

Although, I think you could do the same thing with Sanctum spell instead of Versatile spellcasting. Makes the spell one level higher without a higher spell slot, so a similar chain could occur.The sanctum [level1spell]is a level 2 spell, moving the generalist slot up to level2. Which you can then use for sanctum [level2 domain spell] at level3. Repeat till level9. Actually less of a headache, due to easier prereqs.


The elf wizard may also prepare one additional spell of
her highest spell level each day. Unlike the specialist wizard
ability, this spell may be of any school.

Versatile Spellcaster lets you spend 2 of your spell slots to cast a spell one higher. Your "highest spell level" is determine by your class and level. In the case of a level 1 Wizard, this is 1st level spells. You don't have the ability to cast a 2nd level spell until you take the action of spending 2 1st level spell slots, but by that point, you have already prepare all of your spells for the ay (after your 8 hour rest), and prepared your extra 1st level spell.

Now, if you had Versatile Spellcaster and Precocious Apprentice (from Complete Arcane), your General Specialist extra slot would be a 2nd level spell, and not a 1st level one, until such time as you hit level 5 and got a 3rd level spell slot.

It STILL does not cascade in the manner in which you wish it did. You would need to be a smooth talker and have a DM with a poor understanding of the rules to let that fly.

Of course all of this also requires Uncanny Forethought as well. ON TOP OF anything else we may iscuss, because otherwise, a wizard does not qualify as a "spontaneous caster"

And Sanctum Spell, still doesn't work. First off, Sanctum Spell is a 3.0 feat that was not updated to 3.5. That's less important than the other traits.

More importantly, Sanctum Spell only counts as a spell one level higher when cast in your sanctum, which you may only have one of, and must be a designated structure in which you have spent at least 3 months. It's one level lower if prepared as a Sanctum Spell, an cast outside the Sanctum. The effects of the "virtual level increase" are in regards to: "All effects dependent on spell level (such as save DCs or the ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the adjusted level."

So that's not a higher level spell, either.

[A_S]

You don't have the ability to cast a 2nd level spell until you take the action of spending 2 1st level spell slots, but by that point, you have already prepare all of your spells for the ay (after your 8 hour rest), and prepared your extra 1st level spell.
This is the bit I disagree with. The fact that, any time you want, you can take that action, spend your 1st level spell slots, and cast a 2nd level spell means that you do indeed "have the ability to cast a 2nd level spell." That's what it means to have an ability, to be able to do so when you want. By your argument, I don't see why a wizard wouldn't also lack the ability to cast level 1 spells until he spent the action to do so.

[RedMage125]

This is the bit I disagree with. The fact that, any time you want, you can take that action, spend your 1st level spell slots, and cast a 2nd level spell means that you do indeed "have the ability to cast a 2nd level spell." That's what it means to have an ability, to be able to do so when you want. By your argument, I don't see why a wizard wouldn't also lack the ability to cast level 1 spells until he spent the action to do so.

Because a wizard can "cast any spell he has prepared" as per the guidelines of the wizard class. Even with Versatile Spellcaster, he can't prepare any 2nd level spells at first level, can he?

Furthermore, the logic that counts VS as "having the ability to cast a spell" leads one to a cascading logic conclusion that means taking Versatile Spellcaster gives a level 1 wizard a 9th level spell slot. That should be a big hint that such a point of view is not the way it works.

Furthermore, even if it did work that way, you still suffer from the lack of available spell slots to make General Specialist give you those extra spells. If you can spend 2 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell, and that means an Elven Wizard with the RSL gets an extra 2nd level spell slot, how does anyone figure you'd get 3rd or higher spell slots? The 2nd level "spell slot" (for lack of a better term) only comes into play that the moment the wizard spends 2 1st level ones, as a standard action, to cast that 2nd level spell. How-in ANY WAY-can he then spend 2 2nd level spell slots to get a 3rd level spell off?

Look, if you want to max out the limit of what RAW allow and abuse the rules, you could do this:

1-take 2 flaws at first level, giving you 3 feats (not counting Scribe Scroll)
2-Be an Elf Wizard with the RSL
3-Take Uncanny Forethought, Precocious Apprentice and Versatile Spellcaster
4-Acquire a 3rd level spell, through a scroll, and copy it into your spellbook

You now have the ability to prepare and cast one 2nd level spell, therefore, your General Specialist extra spell slot is a 2nd level one. As per the RAW, you now have 2 2nd level spell slots and could spend both of them as a standard action to cast your 3rd level spell. Your caster level is still terrible, however. 1d6 fireball, lol.

Is that still abusing the rules? Yes, absolutely. But at least this one's technically legit according to RAW.

Edit: fixed the wording in paragraph 2

[RedMage125]

Fascinating thing about Domain Wizard: You know all the spells in the domain for free. Another fascinating thing: It isn't mutually exclusive with Elven Generalist.

You know what's really fascinating? That you're dead wrong.

I was AFB before, so I didn't want to call you on it until I got home to check, but you're incorrect.

The Domain Wizard does indeed get the spells on her domain spell list added to her spells known "as soon as she becomes able to cast it." Which does not count against her 2 free spells known from leveling up. It's arguable, but not explicitly clear*, that this could mean that a wizard with Uncanny Forethought and Versatile Spellcaster gets her 2nd level domain spell known and added to her spellbook at 1st level. But that creates a problem. As a Domain Wizard, she gets "one bonus spell per spell level, which must be filled with the spell of that level from the domain list". BUT, "a domain wizard prepares and casts spells like a normal wizard" (Unearthed Arcana, page 57). So, to use logic and causality, since she doesn't gain the ability to cast a 2nd level spell until she first spends 2 1st level ones, she must do so, and then cast that 2nd level spell (as part of the same standard action, in accordance with Versatile Spellcaster), and now she has an open spell slot of 2nd level, which must be filled with her domain spell, but first she has to sit down for an hour and prepare that spell.

*And if the rules do not explicitly say that you CAN'T, does not mean free license to the contrary. That's called Munchkin Fallacy.

Also, side note, I looked into the way Arcane Disciple is worded, and that DOES NOT auto-grant you the spells on that domain as your spells known, I was wrong on that note. It adds those spells to your class list, but you must still "learn them as normal for your class". Which means you still need to find a scroll of that spell and copy it into your spellbook, if you're a wizard.

But your second point, is flat out wrong. Both Domain Wizard and Geneal Specialist explicitly state that they are in exchange for a normal wizard's ability to specialize in a school of magic. So you make an Elf Wizard, with the RSL. You no longer have the "school specialization" option to give up in favor of the Domain Wizard ACF. So yes, they ARE, in fact, mutually exclusive.

Another example to highlight this: A Raptoran Cloistered Cleric who wishes to take the Raptoran Cleric RSL from Races of the Wild does not gain the Air Mastery ability from the raptoran RSL because, by taking Cloistered Cleric, he no longer has heavy armor proficiency to give up in exchange. He would still get the Empathy of the Winds feature, however.

The wizard ACF is kind of funny in that regard, because a wizard of any race who simply does not choose to specialize is ALSO "giving up" that class feature, because once that decision is made upon taking level 1 of wizard. Calling "the option to specialize" a class feature that's worth exchanging is almost laughable, because if you choose not to take it at level one, the "class feature" never comes up again. Most RSLs and ACFs require you to exchange something that's an actual class feature, such as exchanging a paladin's mount for something else, or one of a monk's bonus feats for a different feat or ability that the PHB monk doesn't get. Even the level 3 and level 5 RSLs for Elf Wizard actually give up something. You lose you ability to have your familiar make touch spell attacks for you in exchange for doubling the bonus, and give up "bonus metamagic/item creation feat" in exchange for an archery one.
Regardless of how silly "giving up the option to specialize" is in exchange for something cool(er), the fact is that both Domain Wizard and General Specialist both specify that they are a different form of specializing; just not in a specific school, and that such an option replaces the school specialization option. As per Unearthed Arcana, a domain wizard "cannot be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility in specializing in a domain instead of an entire school...". And as per Races of the Wild under the General Specialist ability, "This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard's ability to specialize in a school of magic". So it's one or the other.

[RedMage125]

LOL, I just noticed something. Uncanny Forethought requires Spell Mastery as a feat prerequisite.

So even WITH a DM who allows flaws (I've never met or gamed with one, personally), the max amount is 2, per RAW.

Which means that would have to be modified thus:

1-Make a human Domain Wizard, take 2 flaws, giving you 4 feats (not counting Scribe Scroll
2-For feats take Precocious Apprentice, Spell Mastery, Versatile Spellcaster, and Uncanny Forethought
3-Acquire 3rd level spell through a scroll or something
4-Profit*

You now have 2 2nd level spell slots (one from PA, which gives you a second one from being a Domain Wizard), you can then use (in accordance with VS) to cast that 3rd level spell.

*Although the "profit" of a 3rd level spell cast at CL 1 is laughable. Short duration, limited effect, something's going to suffer there.

Still doesn't cascade into 4th or above slots, though. Because he doesn't have 3rd level o higher slots to "spend" to get a 4th level spell (or higher) off.

[Fable Wright]

You know what's really fascinating? That you're dead wrong.
If you're going to make this claim, please do so with the facts to back it up.


The Domain Wizard does indeed get the spells on her domain spell list added to her spells known "as soon as she becomes able to cast it." Which does not count against her 2 free spells known from leveling up.
Good, so we agree. The second that you are able to cast 2nd level spells, you know the 2nd level domain spell. The second that you are able to cast a 3rd level spell, you know the second level domain spell. This can also be phrased as "you know all the spells in the domain for free."

But your second point, is flat out wrong. Both Domain Wizard and Geneal Specialist explicitly state that they are in exchange for a normal wizard's ability to specialize in a school of magic.
This is inaccurate. Let's look at the relevant bits of text, shall we?

A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power.

Relevant RAW: A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard.
Irrelevant fluff: Everything after the semicolon. This is merely describing what you're giving up by not being a specialist (versatility) and describing what you gain (casting spells with increased power), not the actual loss or gain of class features.

This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard’s ability to specialize in a school of magic.
We have one explicit statement that it replaces the ability to specialize, and one statement that merely states that you cannot be a specialist. We are not trading away the ability to specialize twice, by RAW. Most DMs will not allow this as it's likely a violation of the RAI, but we're discussing the Rules As Written here.


Another example to highlight this: A Raptoran Cloistered Cleric who wishes to take the Raptoran Cleric RSL from Races of the Wild does not gain the Air Mastery ability from the raptoran RSL because, by taking Cloistered Cleric, he no longer has heavy armor proficiency to give up in exchange. He would still get the Empathy of the Winds feature, however.
This is describing someone trying to trade away the same feature twice. As such, you're drawing inaccurate parallels. Let's use a better example: The Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Let's look at what it does, shall we?


A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).

We're gaining the features listed on the page in exchange for this modified casting. So far, so good. Now let's apply the Stalwart Sorcerer variant.


Reduce by one the number of sorcerer spells known for your highest spell level (to a minimum of one). As a 1st-level character, you have one 1st-level spell known rather than two.

When you would gain a second known spell from a higher level, apply this penalty to the new spell level but remove it from the lower level. For example, at 5th level, you reduce your 2nd-level spells known from two to one but you gain the previously unavailable 1st-level spell (increasing your 1st-level spells known from three to four).
So, at 1st level, you're essentially trading your second spell known at level 1 away twice. Note how Stalwart sets your number of 1st level spells at level 1 to 1 known, and how Battle Sorcerer subtracts one from this (to a minimum of one). Notice how the text implies in each case that you're trading your second level 1 spell known away for the features granted, but that in reality, from the way the text is worded, you're gaining two features for the one lost spell slot because of how the way the text is worded. The same concept is at work with the Elven Domain Generalist. It looks like you're trading the same feature away twice, but because of the way the text is worded, you are not.


Fascinating thing about Domain Wizard: You know all the spells in the domain for free. Another fascinating thing: It isn't mutually exclusive with Elven Generalist.
There is nothing wrong, dead or otherwise, with this statement.

[RedMage125]

If you're going to make this claim, please do so with the facts to back it up.
I provided relevant citation, thank you. I just didn't always use quote blocks. I did it the old fashioned way.


Good, so we agree. The second that you are able to cast 2nd level spells, you know the 2nd level domain spell. The second that you are able to cast a 3rd level spell, you know the second level domain spell. This can also be phrased as "you know all the spells in the domain for free."
Again, arguable, because a domain wizard still "prepares and casts spells like a normal wizard". So I could also make the case that since VS does not give you the ability to prepare a 2nd level spell, that you don't start the day with your 2nd level domain spell slot. So you don't get that 2nd level spell domain slot until that point in the day when you sacrifice 2 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level one. Then you get that 2nd level spell slot, which must be used for that specific spell from your domain. But you still need to stop and prepare spells again first.

And since the RAW do not explicitly say what you claim, you cant claim it's straight RAW. To claim that they do on the basis that the RAW don't explicitly refute your claim would be Munchkin Fallacy.



Relevant RAW: A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard.
Irrelevant fluff: Everything after the semicolon. This is merely describing what you're giving up by not being a specialist (versatility) and describing what you gain (casting spells with increased power), not the actual loss or gain of class features.

We have one explicit statement that it replaces the ability to specialize, and one statement that merely states that you cannot be a specialist. We are not trading away the ability to specialize twice, by RAW. Most DMs will not allow this as it's likely a violation of the RAI, but we're discussing the Rules As Written here.
A prohibition is a mechanic. If you cannot be a specialist wizard because you're a domain wizard, that class ability must be available for you to take this as an alternative. If you're already a General Specialist, that class feature is no longer available to you to swap out.



This is describing someone trying to trade away the same feature twice. As such, you're drawing inaccurate parallels. Let's use a better example: The Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Let's look at what it does, shall we?

We're gaining the features listed on the page in exchange for this modified casting. So far, so good. Now let's apply the Stalwart Sorcerer variant.

So, at 1st level, you're essentially trading your second spell known at level 1 away twice. Note how Stalwart sets your number of 1st level spells at level 1 to 1 known, and how Battle Sorcerer subtracts one from this (to a minimum of one). Notice how the text implies in each case that you're trading your second level 1 spell known away for the features granted, but that in reality, from the way the text is worded, you're gaining two features for the one lost spell slot because of how the way the text is worded. The same concept is at work with the Elven Domain Generalist. It looks like you're trading the same feature away twice, but because of the way the text is worded, you are not.
Apples and Oranges, because both explicitly state that you cannot go below 1 spell known. There you have explicit rules, ones that imply they work with other factors that may reduce your spells known, no less.

[Fable Wright]

I provided relevant citation, thank you.
You provided irrelevant citations with inexact text. There is a difference.


Again, arguable, because a domain wizard still "prepares and casts spells like a normal wizard". So I could also make the case that since VS does not give you the ability to prepare a 2nd level spell, that you don't start the day with your 2nd level domain spell slot. So you don't get that 2nd level spell domain slot until that point in the day when you sacrifice 2 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level one. Then you get that 2nd level spell slot, which must be used for that specific spell from your domain. But you still need to stop and prepare spells again first.
This is entirely irrelevant to the first part of my statement, that you know all your domain spells for free. I'm not arguing whether or not you get the domain spells when preparing spells in the morning. I am stating that you know all the spells in your domain for free, a statement which you have yet to refute.


A prohibition is a mechanic. If you cannot be a specialist wizard because you're a domain wizard, that class ability must be available for you to take this as an alternative. If you're already a General Specialist, that class feature is no longer available to you to swap out.
Not quite. A prohibition is a mechanic, true. But the bolded section is simply not true. It merely states that you cannot be a specialist wizard. It does not state that you must have the capability to be a specialist wizard, merely that if the option to be a specialist wizard exists, you cannot take it. It is implied that you have the ability to be the specialist wizard, as most wizards who take this option would have such an option, but there is no explicit rule requiring that option to be available.

[RedMage125]

You provided irrelevant citations with inexact text. There is a difference.
I posted exact text, just not in a quote box. I even cited book and page number.
Your failure to read that =/= my citing "inexact text"


This is entirely irrelevant to the first part of my statement, that you know all your domain spells for free. I'm not arguing whether or not you get the domain spells when preparing spells in the morning. I am stating that you know all the spells in your domain for free, a statement which you have yet to refute.
Are you saying that a level 1 Domain Wizard has his 9th level domain spell already known? Because that's not true.

A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it. These spells do not count against her two new spells known per wizard level.



Not quite. A prohibition is a mechanic, true. But the bolded section is simply not true. It merely states that you cannot be a specialist wizard. It does not state that you must have the capability to be a specialist wizard, merely that if the option to be a specialist wizard exists, you cannot take it. It is implied that you have the ability to be the specialist wizard, as most wizards who take this option would have such an option, but there is no explicit rule requiring that option to be available.

Except that the text states:

A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power.
Your assertion that "everything after the semicolon can be ignored" is simply not true, no is it backed up in any way by the rules. Who says you can ignore some of the RAW? You? On what authority?

The fact is, that you can only claim that what you suggest is in accordance with RAW if and only if one ignores one of the sentences in the RAW regarding that ACF.

And I'm sorry, but "The RAW say I'm right when you ignore part of what the RAW says" is not a valid argument.

[Fable Wright]

I posted exact text, just not in a quote box. I even cited book and page number.
Your failure to read that =/= my citing "inexact text"
The inexact text I was referring to:

Both Domain Wizard and Geneal Specialist explicitly state that they are in exchange for a normal wizard's ability to specialize in a school of magic.
Though looking back, you did post the relevant text. At the bottom of a paragraph rambling on about the absurdity of the option to specialize as a class feature, which I skipped over after several sentences in because it had no bearing on anything we were talking about.


Are you saying that a level 1 Domain Wizard has his 9th level domain spell already known? Because that's not true.
I am saying that any domain wizard knows all the spells in his domain without paying the cost as soon as they are capable of casting spells of that level, shorthanded as "knows all the spells in their domain for free."



Except that the text states:


A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power.

Are you claiming that the bolded text is RAW? It's not. It's descriptive text. Just like everything else in that text block after the semicolon.


Your assertion that "everything after the semicolon can be ignored" is simply not true, no is it backed up in any way by the rules. Who says you can ignore some of the RAW? You? On what authority?
Basic language skills. It's descriptive text. It's not rules. Let's take a look at similar text, shall we? As I have the book on hand, let's look at the Crusader class and some of the 'RAW' there.

She fights as skillfully as a fighter, paladin, or ranger does, relying on heavy armor[...]

Each attack that strikes you only pushes you on to greater glory.
Your choice of deity is paramount.
Notice something? Absolutely none of this is rules. It is all fluff. Likewise everything after the semicolon in the sentence you keep banging on about.


And I'm sorry, but "The RAW say I'm right when you ignore part of what the RAW says" is not a valid argument.
That's correct. But I'm not ignoring RAW, I'm ignoring descriptive text/fluff, which has absolutely no bearing on RAW.

Regardless, it's become clear that regardless of what I say, you're going to ignore my arguments. I'll not be wasting further time in this thread.

[RedMage125]

Are you claiming that the bolded text is RAW? It's not. It's descriptive text. Just like everything else in that text block after the semicolon.
The exact detail of that "extra power" that those spells are cast with is the following:

A domain wizard casts spells from her chosen domain (regardless
of whether the spell was prepared as a domain spell
or a normal spell) as a caster one level higher than her normal
level. This bonus applies only to the spells listed for the domain,
not all spells of the school or subtype whose name matches the
domain name.

So...yes.



Basic language skills. It's descriptive text. It's not rules.
Why? Because you want it to work another way?

If it's just descriptive text and not RAW, then there's nothing mechanical that makes the so-called "descriptive text" make any sense.

The spells that are "cast with increased power" is flavor text for the increased Caster Level that the Domain Wizard casts the spells on her domain list.

Looked at another way: All of the variants in UA require some kind of "trade" of normal PHB class features for the new ones in UA. Are you really trying to argue that the Domain Wizard is different, and gets these bonuses fo free? That's inconsistent. More consistent is going with the idea that you are "trading" your ability to specialize in a school, which is mutually exclusive with the Generalist Wizardry option of the Elf Wizard RSL. Now an Elf Domain Wizard should still take the RSL, because it adds one more skill (Search) to her class skill list, so why not take it? But she wants to be a Domain Wizard, such is mutually exclusive with Generalist Wizardry.


That's correct. But I'm not ignoring RAW, I'm ignoring descriptive text/fluff, which has absolutely no bearing on RAW.

Regardless, it's become clear that regardless of what I say, you're going to ignore my arguments. I'll not be wasting further time in this thread.
So...a Jade's Trick, and you're done?

That's an effective debate tactic.