[PF] Clustered shots

[kabreras]

Is it me or clustered shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat) is way too powerfull for the level the feat is attainable (lvl6).

Tryed it with a friend in a solo game yesterday.

Bypassing full DR like that that early make encounter hard to balance if not impossible for a group and i am tempted to just ban it for the future.

Tested with a friend at level 9 as a zen archer and he was able to drestroy anything or almost at his own CR +2 witch is supposed to be a hard encounter for a group.

[MagnusExultatio]

You're right, Clustered Shots is far too good. I think instead, as it's a feat for martial characters, we should make it a 15th level feat. While we're at it, we can give it about three more feat prerequisites, a very high Strength requirement, and we should cap the amount of damage reduction it pierces through.

[Ziegander]

It doesn't pierce through damage reduction at all though... DR still affects the damage, it just reduces the total damage dealt, rather than the damage of each arrow individually.

So, if you're a 6th level Fighter, for example, with 20 Dex and let's say 18 Str, using Rapid Shot and a +1 Composite (+4) Longbow, that gives you three attacks at +10/+10/+5 to hit that deal 1d8+5 damage each. If all three hit, that's 3d8+15 damage, an average of about 29 damage. Against DR 5/X, the DR still reduces the damage to 24.

Compared that to a Raging Barbarian with 26 Strength (+8 modifier) Power Attacking with a MW Greatsword. That's only two attacks, but at +13/+8 that deal 2d6+18 damage each. If both hit that's an average of about 50 damage, or 40 against DR 5 (because the DR does apply to each swing). The Fighter blew more feats and more money to deal less damage with his fighting style, but at least he does get to do it from a long way away.

[Yanisa]

It doesn't pierce through damage reduction at all though... DR still affects the damage, it just reduces the total damage dealt, rather than the damage of each arrow individually.

So, if you're a 6th level Fighter, for example, with 20 Dex and let's say 18 Str, using Rapid Shot and a +1 Composite (+4) Longbow, that gives you three attacks at +10/+10/+5 to hit that deal 1d8+5 damage each. If all three hit, that's 3d8+15 damage, an average of about 29 damage. Against DR 5/X, the DR still reduces the damage to 24.

Compared that to a Raging Barbarian with 26 Strength (+8 modifier) Power Attacking with a MW Greatsword. That's only two attacks, but at +13/+8 that deal 2d6+18 damage each. If both hit that's an average of about 50 damage, or 40 against DR 5 (because the DR does apply to each swing). The Fighter blew more feats and more money to deal less damage with his fighting style, but at least he does get to it from a long way away.

It's a Zen Archer, so lets toss in a Zen Archer Comparison. Zen Archer (9), 20 wisdom, 18 str, +1 Composite (+4) Longbow, using ki strike for a total of 1d10+5 dam per hit. Attack is
+13/+13/+8/+8, if all hit that would be 4d10+20, or average 42 damage. VS 5 damage reduction that would be 37...

See that the level 6 barbarian is pushing the same damage as a level 9 zen archer and they have the same attack modifiers.

To be fair our level 9 zen archer could buy better stuff, but then again so could a level 9 barbarian. But that is all theorizing without enough background knowledge.

How much damage is the Zen Archer dealing and against what monsters is he fighting? How are the fights played out? Single monster and long distance between enemy and PC favors the archer.

[Feint's End]

As some posters have already mentioned Clustered Shot is hardly "too powerful" but solves one of the core issues of ranged namely dealing with dr. Even counting in clustered shot melee martials still deal more damage (with fewer feat investment ... power attack ... that's about all you need) overall so I don't see where the balance issues come from.

DR is also not really something you can use to balance encounters because approximately half your group isn't affected by it. And if you have it it is much worse for ranged characters than for melees (because those usually have fewer attacks with higher damage ... assuming 2h of course).

Coming together Clustered Shot is actually a pretty well thought through talent and should be easily attainable by every ranged character.

[kabreras]

Every class and build have and must have some drawback.

A mele char do a lot of damage but have to be in mele range.
A ranged char can be far away but do a bit less damages.

You can't have it all.

And imo this feat remove the main drawback of beeing ranged that is doing a bit less damages.
Then why playing mele ever ? when you can have a group of ranger/fighter/zen archer that is all around a mob and shoot it down in 1 round without it beeing able to fight back ? (and even be so splited that no AE would take them)

A ranged class is not supposed to hit as hard as a mele class balance wise.

[Nightraiderx]

Because there is cover and concealment to deal with and at lvl 6 you will not be having many ways to overcome that. You use terrain to bring that point to light. It's not really that powerful an feat considering the feat investment no?
Also, Deflect Arrows feat, you are the dm you can throw it on your monsters for more staying power.

[Yanisa]

A ranged class is not supposed to hit as hard as a mele class balance wise.

And he doesn't...

The level 9 Zen archer deals 42 per round, if all attack hit
The level 6 Barbarian deals 50 per round, , if all attack hit

The other drawback is it costs more feat, more effort and more tricks then a melee fighter. You are comparing a niche build (Zen Archer) to a general concept (Melee). A regular archer has even less tools to increase the damage of an arrow.


Then why playing mele ever ? when you can have a group of ranger/fighter/zen archer that is all around a mob and shoot it down in 1 round without it beeing able to fight back ? (and even be so splited that no AE would take them)

If that is your argument, wonder why not everyone plays a wizard. People like to play different classes and builds, but still try to be as effective as possible within those builds.
I picked a monk and tired to make the best monk possible, even though other classes far outshine the monk.

Besides I don't feel like the Zen Archer is one shotting CR 11 creatures, pretty sure most of those have more then 60 hp. There might be something else at play.

[Sayt]

Yeah, but generally speaking, Ranged characters have to spend more resources to do almost as well as melee characters.

Why play melee with clustered shots in the game? Because you still do more damage. Because power attack has an option to get a +50% bonus for two-handing and deadly aim doesn't. Bows don't get strength and a half naturally. Archers need to pay money on their magic item to benefit from spontaneous strength boosts like mutagens or Bull's strength. They don't need to spend a feat on hitting people who are adjacent to other people.

Lets say at level 12, the archer is going up against a Dark Young (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/dark-young-of-shub-niggurath). Without Clustered Shots, a Deadly Aiming Many/Rapidshotting Archer with a +2 bow will get an average of like, 3 damage per arrow to the aberration.

3 points.

That's the kind of situation where I stop paying attention to the session and get my game boy out, because I might as well be throwing daggers without a strength mod.

Clustered Shots it not an unreasonable feat, and the alternative is burning money on Adamantine/Cold Iron/Silver arrows, but even that won't help against undead with DR/B or DR/S.

Archer's drawback is that they have to scrape together a dozen-odd feats togehter to get to be effective every time the melee guy is when he has Power Attack. If a melee fighter spent as many feats on making sure they got to contribute damage, they''d end up taking greater weapon specialisation.

And, y'know, end up still doing it better.

[Der_DWSage]

Yeah, but at the same time...it's pretty likely that the Clustered Shots feat was made tailor-made for the Gunslinger class (It being the only ranged class in Ultimate Combat) which gets pretty absurd with that particular gem.

Just...from personal experience, you should never allow a dual-wielding Pistolero to take the feat, no matter how underwhelming he felt before. He'll begin murdering ALL the things.

[Ravens_cry]

Clustered Shots is a good feat. Is it too good? Tell that to Annie the Archer, who has six shots hit, but does next to no damage because she doesn't have the right material and/or enchantment.
Do you want to make Annie the Archer cry?

[grarrrg]

Just...from personal experience, you should never allow a dual-wielding Pistolero to take the feat, no matter how underwhelming he felt before. He'll begin murdering ALL the things.

Dual-Wielding pistols in an of itself is a problem, unless you have access to modern fire-arms.
Since the nerf to Weapon-Cords, the only valid option is to have 3 arms.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Dual-Wielding pistols in an of itself is a problem, unless you have access to modern fire-arms.
Since the nerf to Weapon-Cords, the only valid option is to have 3 arms.

Not that hard in PF, really.

It's a shame they didn't fix the broken gun rules instead of the relatively trivial weapon cord -- it was still a swift to get the weapon back; the "abuse" of them was the fact that the attack penalty for keeping a weapon dangled was trivial for someone hitting touch AC and with a full BAB. But why fix the root of problems? :smallannoyed:

[Nightraiderx]

Fix the gun rules in PF? heresy sir! how else will we have nagging issues?

[Slipperychicken]

Back in 3.5, nonmagical ranged combat was infeasible partly because DR nerfed the crap out of it. Also, Clustered Shots can be replaced with a cheap consumable (usually special ammunition or an oil of align weapon) and a Knowledge check.


1. See the monster
2. Knowledge check DC = 10+CR to know its strengths and weaknesses. This should be pretty easy if you have a wizard on the team.
3. Use whatever consumable is needed to bypass the DR.
4. ???
5. PROFIT!

So yeah, spending a feat to save yourself some pocket change isn't exactly broken.

[kabreras]

It is broken to me for mobs with a DR/-- witch have most of the time very few hp.

[kabreras]

here is a fast make monk. lvl 10 zen archer.



Oread Monk (Zen Archer, Qinggong Monk) 10
LN Medium outsider (native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 22, flat-footed 25 (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge, +9 untyped)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +15
Resist acid 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 50 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +9/+4 (1d10+2)
Ranged +3 adaptive composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+11/19-20/×3+2 flurry)
Ranged flurry +16/+16/+11/+11 (and for 1 ki an other +16) (1d8+11/19-20/×3+2 flurry)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, zen archery
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +9)
—barkskin (self only, 1 ki)
—gaseous form (self only, 1 ki)
Oread Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +9)
1/day—magic stone
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 31
Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Critical (longbow), Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike, Point Blank Master, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills
Languages Common, Terran
SQ ac bonus, fast movement, ki archery, ki arrows, ki defense, ki pool, reflexive shot, unarmed strike
Other Gear +3 adaptive composite longbow, +4 bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, efficient quiver, handy haversack, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +1, 150 gp


While flurry he hit for +16/+16/+11/+11 (and for 1 ki an other +16) for 1D8+13 dmg. not counting the perfect strike and these others stufs.

Beeing able to pass all DR from 5 hits (lets say a DR10) means 5D8+52 (65-10) at least.

Yep for me it is quite OP.

[Sayt]

I don't know why you have flurry of blows adding 2 damage.

Further more, that attack routine is not unreasonable. Against the above referenced Dark Young, which is CR 12, so a reasonable thing to throw at a party of lvl 10 characters, two of its shots hit on 11, the other two only on 16s. So, roughly speaking, it can expect to hit 3 times every two rounds. With the damage buff you're giving flurry, it average 17 damage, or two over its DR, for an average of about 3 damage per round if it doesn't have clustered shots. Conversely, a two handed fighter could easily be doing as much as the zen Archer.

The Dark Young chases the archery for a bit, but as is 3/5ths the speed, doesn't catch it, so it uses its constant airwalk to climb outside of the archers range and goes and finds someone else to eat.

[Yanisa]

here is a fast make monk. lvl 10 zen archer.




While flurry he hit for +16/+16/+11/+11 (and for 1 ki an other +16) for 1D8+13 dmg. not counting the perfect strike and these others stufs.

Beeing able to pass all DR from 5 hits (lets say a DR10) means 5D8+52 (65-10) at least.

Yep for me it is quite OP.

I counter with a Barbarian 10, 24 str. Rages for 28 str. +3 Weapon I saw. Toss in power attack, great sword, two handed. I saw the monk getting an extra attack, so our barbarian has Boots of Speed

He got two attacks, with far more chance to hit +19/+14. And deals 2d6+ 25
Not being able to bypass any dr, he deals 6d6+75 -30 or at least 51 damage. On average 66, the average of your monk is 64. On max the barbarian deals 81 and the monk 82..

With one feat and 2 magic items I deal the same amount of damage. One feat! No rage powers, no other feats! The monk spend at least 3 feats.

Now say lets say they are solo fighting the Dark Young. Suddenly the barbarian deals with no damage reduction because the creature has 15/slashing.

So now the monk deals 50 damage, and the barbarian deals 81 damage, neither are able to one shot the creature though. The barbarian might if he crits and has more damage dealing feats, the monk cannot.
Also if the monk didn't had clustered shot he would be dealing 6 max per hit, or 30 total. Where the barbarian just rips and tears trough enemies.

So I don't see your point about making melee obsolete, I don't feel clustered shots gives far more damage then melee and it has more feat costs then melee.
Damage reduction general is easy to overcome around level 10, there are plenty of spells, potions, oils and budget to afford multiple weapons so it is rarely a problem for a melee fighter where an archer has a lot more troubles dealing with some forms especially slashing/bludgeon ones, aka undeads.
Also most creatures around CR 12 have at least 140 hp and cannot be one shotted, so I don't get that point. Archery has the factor of range, but there are things like ambushes, cover, spells like blur, mist, darkness and various other ways to challenge a group with an archer.
Also Paladin archers pierce trough any DR as long as the enemy is evil, are Paladins archers now also overpowered and banned?
And if damage alone is the problem, give enemies more HP. I have a barbarian in the party and when he crits things go down(and hard!). If I want a challenging encounter I tend to give monsters max HP from Hit Dice. The group barely notices it.

It is a strong feat, but also costs 2 prerequisite feats for a reason. It helps archers catch up with melee damage so they won't feel useless against damage reduction and specific types of archery (Zen) can deal more damage with it then a straight fighter. But a niche build doesn't prove a feat is overpowered, it proves that that niche build is strong.
Also keep in mind that nothing of this matters a in world of wizards, sorcerers, druids and clerics.

Lastly, and most important, if you feel the feat is not fitting with the balance of your personal games and personal campaign then you can ban it. But the problem is not the feat alone and general speaking the feat is balanced fine. Like I said before there might be other things at play.




So in conclusion (TL:DR):
The feat is strong but not way too powerful. Ban if you dislike it anyways.

[kabreras]

The fact is that i considere that it is normal that the barbarian deal mora damages than the archer !!

The barbarian is in mele. he need to get to mele range when the archer can just moove around and avoid the other without any danger.

Yes the barbarian doing more damages than the archer is normal. the anormal part is trying to get them both to the same level of damages.

[Yanisa]

The other options is barely dealing damage at all and being useless for the combat. Clustered Shot gives archers a fighting chance. Archery is generally disliked in 3.P and feats like Clustered Shot give people the will to play archers. Would your buddy still play a Zen Archer without Clusered Shot?

But this is all for creatures with DR, there are creatures without DR and then the Zen Archer would still be dealing the same damage as the Barbarian. Clustered Shot is not your problem.

[TuggyNE]

Yes the barbarian doing more damages than the archer is normal. the anormal part is trying to get them both to the same level of damages.

Even situationally, only partially, and with a substantial investment? :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

Honestly, this really allows an archer to contribute significant damage when facing even fairly minimal DR without a Paladin Archer build.
I wouldn't mind a melee version designed for TWF to be honest.

[Larpus]

I agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the feat.

Hell, other than an upcoming game, I've never been behind the bow on the issue, always been the melee guy (usually a barbarian) and not once I felt overshadowed by the archer. If anything, the archer actually doing nice damage saved my life.

Sure, there were times where a ranged battle made me feel out of place, but even if the archer did zero damage, I wouldn't have it any easier to close in and do my stuff (in fact, I would have it harder as there would still be 3 ranged whatevers with DR as opposed to 2 or even 1).

Still, OP, if you feel that you ought to do something about it, please, just nerf the feat a little instead of banning, something like dealing 2/3 of the total damage which is way better than being delegated to throwing toothpicks at the enemies.

[ericgrau]

Normally carrying a variety of arrow metal types and making a knowledge check bypasses DR anyway.

Zen archers are pretty good too. I think the only archer that tops them is some ranger ACF that can keep changing his favored enemy.

[Ravens_cry]

Normally carrying a variety of arrow metal types and making a knowledge check bypasses DR anyway.
That's hard to pull off if you are often far away from the local Magic Mart.

[ericgrau]

They're cheap items so they shouldn't be hard to find. In the PHB at least the rule of thumb was a 3,000 gp limit. Even if we go by the cost of 50 (which isn't necessary), even adamantine is +3,000 gp.

And if you can't ever buy and sell and get totally random treasure... you're going to have a ton of stuff that nobody can use regardless of what you're playing. You at least need to hire an NPC for X days and/or go to a town every Y months.

[Yanisa]

Alchemy saves the day (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Weapon-Blanch). For 100 GP you can make 10 arrows count as Adamantine. It also has cold iron, silver and maybe even ghost touch (but no source listed though).

Put some points in Alchemy when the DM is stingy. A DC 25 check isn't that hard at level 10, and reduces the cost to 50 GP. Do note it is alchemy, not magic, so should still work in low magic campaign settings and away from your local magic mart. Alchemy is the kind of skill you can find ingredients for everywhere.

They also work for melee, but because they only work for one attack it is far better for ammunition. In fact because of this clause you can coat your arrows today, and shoot them over 10 years and the coating still works.

Troubles with bludgeoning? 2 GP for 20 Blunt Arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-blunt)

Couldn't find a consumable for slashing though, have fun with the zombies kiddo's.

So wait... why is damage reduction a problem again? :smallconfused: It's just a gold sink these days.

[OverdrivePrime]

Totally agree with the rest here. Archery has a hard enough time keeping up without you taking away the some of the very few things that let it keep up with melee. And seriously, by level 9 full casters are already starting to get kind of patronizing with melee and archery: "Awww... good job buddy! You put down a big scary monster all by yourself today!" [Caster proceeds to end the encounter with a swift spell and a fifth level spell.]

If you need such an extremely specific build that you're going with zen archer for your example of 'overpowered' then just maaaaybe it's the build and not the feat. Think how few players are going to want to put up with all the nonsense and downsides of being a monk in order to be dangerous enough with archery to 'keep up' with their melee-fightin' friends. Is an archery-specc'ed fighter, rogue or ranger with Clustered Shots nearly so much of a threat? Not without heavy feat and equipment investment.

On the other hand, take something as frustratingly weak as two-weapon fighting. Just for giggles, let's go with a sword & board twf ranger, at level 11. 25 point buy. Combat Style Feats are noted with an asterisk. Keep in mind this guy is getting lapped for damage effectiveness by a two-handed fighter, and kept around by hipster casters mainly for irony's sake.

Human Ranger Guide (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=832183)
Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Double Slice*, Shield Focus, Endurance, Power Attack, Improved TWF*, Shield Slam, Improved Bull Rush, Greater TWF*, Shield Master
Equipment: +3 longsword, +5 light steel shield, +2 mithral chainmail, boots of speed, +4 belt of giant strength, Flying ointment and a +1 cloak of resistance
Skills: don't matter.
Spells prepared: fickle winds, versatile weapon (x2), lead blades, resist energy, sun metal
Example (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=832183)
Human Ranger Guide Dude, Level 11, Init +4, HP 88/88, Speed 30
AC 25, Touch 10, Flat-footed 25, CMD 28, Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +6, CMB +18/+13/+8, Base Attack Bonus 11/6/1
Longsword +3 +21/+16/+11 (-2 for twf) (1d6+10, 19-20 x2)
Light Shield +5 +23/+18/+13 (1d3+12, 19-20 x2)
Power Attack, Focused longsword +24/+19/+14 (-2 for twf) (1d8+22, 19-20 x2)
Mithral Chainmail +2, Light Steel Shield +5 (+8 Armor, +7 Shield)
Abilities Str 24, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Condition None

Minimum damage per round vs 'boss' enemy with DR 10/holy if whole attack sequence hits: 88 (or 53 if DR 15/holy)
Minimum damage per round vs DR 15/slashing if the whole attack sequence hits after casting versatile weapon: 152

And this is a fairly thoughtless build I slapped together on lunch.
Thanks to Fickle Winds (or Wind Wall, if lower level) he completely doesn't care about a Zen archer's attack sequence.