Handling Un-Rogues and Traps

[CrazyYanmega]

I'm running a campaign for level 10 characters. I was pretty proud of the dungeon I made, populated with interesting monsters like a 12-headed Hydra and a mad goblin named Gobldygook who used a cursed Rod of Wonder. I'm most proud of the myriad of traps placed within the narrow hallways.

Now, the party consisted of a Human Warblade using Monkey-Grip, a Raptoran Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade wielding a harpoon, a Lupine Half-Minotaur Fighter/Soul Eater, A Gnome Sorcerer, and two Human Rogues. Shortly after a Lupine Shaman joined the party.

Now, as a DM, when you see a party lineup and see "two rogues," one assumes at least one of them has a decent Disable Device score, or at least a reasonable Search skill, right?

Well, Rogue number one is ocd and spreads his skill points evenly across all his available skills, and he hangs back 30 feet behind the party with an arrow constantly notched, ready to shoot ANYONE who he deems a threat. Rogue number two... MINIMUM skill points in each. He plays like a chargebarian, wielding a large adamantine Greatsword.

After the party triggered a self-resetting Fireball trap 4-5 times, and me discovering to my dismay that NEITHER rogue had invested in what I consider the two most critical trapfinding skills, Rogue number 2 told party members to stand back, because awesome is about to happen.

HE PROCEEDED TO STAB THE TRAP. The magical trap that holds a theoretically infinite amount of magic.

My dungeon now has a perfectly round, 40 ft diameter sphere of nothing in it. Needless to say, Rogue number two no longer exists, but unfortunately the Half-minotaur also got caught in the blast.

Now, the players were okay, and the game proceeded. The new airspace gave the Bloodstorm blade the room he needed to pick the hydra apart, and the three characters who died this session want to continue playing and have rolled up new characters. The remaining rogue has made his intent clear that he is going to be investing skill points in Search and Disable Device for the next few levels. I, on the other hand, have removed the more dangerous Fireball and Flame Strike traps from the dungeon, and am currently debating removal of a Chain Lightning trap in a treasure room.

However, something still doesn't sit right with me. I feel like I could have handled this better, and wanted to know how the Playground would have handled the situation.

[tahu88810]

D&D isn't an mmo: If the party is incapable of handling an encounter (as in the case given), then that encounter either does not exist or can be ignored in favor of a different (though perhaps more dangerous) route.

[NoACWarrior]

It depends - if I were DMing, I would have lowered the trap DC, but also either lowered the challenge of said dungeon, or made things a bit harder at the end.

However if I was the PC, I'd know better than to stab traps with my sword, or charge headlong into an unknown area, I would have worked that out with the party before hand with a few spell or magic item backups.

The answer changes if I am either CE, CN, NE, or LE. I'd buy guard dogs, animals, and maybe commoners than waste my time or money on magical item backups. If I had the spells I'd half the amount of things/people I bought to save money but send the people in anyways just in case my magic given trap finding wasn't sufficient.

[Matticussama]

D&D isn't an mmo: If the party is incapable of handling an encounter (as in the case given), then that encounter either does not exist or can be ignored in favor of a different (though perhaps more dangerous) route.

I disagree, to an extent at least. The adventuring party, made up of (presumably) intelligent characters, should not take quests that they do not have the skills to accomplish. Just because the party doesn't have a trapfinder does not mean that most traps magically disappear from the world; that ruins verisimilitude.

That being said, you might want to offer in-character ways for the party to avoid missions that they don't have the skills for; Gather Information checks for past (presumably failed) expeditions into dungeons, rumors for the quirks of the mad Goblin and his odd fascination with traps, etc. That way the party knows what they're getting into, and can either gear up to cover their weaknesses or pass on that particular adventure and seek out challenges more suited to their skills.

[HammeredWharf]

Dungeonscape has a set of rules for trap encounters. I tend to use them in my games, because they get the whole party to participate, can be handled without Disable Device and are more interesting than "roll Disable Device... yeah, the trap is down".

[(Un)Inspired]

Rogue number 2 told party members to stand back, because awesome is about to happen.

HE PROCEEDED TO STAB THE TRAP. The magical trap that holds a theoretically infinite amount of magic.

My dungeon now has a perfectly round, 40 ft diameter sphere of nothing in it. Needless to say, Rogue number two no longer exists, but unfortunately the Half-minotaur also got caught in the blast.



This got me chuckling pretty well. I probably wouldn't have sphere or annihilation'd the area of the broken trap (I actually don't use magical resetting traps) but still, hilarious.

IDK why you got two really strangely built rogues. One who wants to ensure that he's bad at every skill instead of good at some and the other that committed trap based seppuku.

As others have said, Good king Dm (you) can always alter a dungeon to better fit the party. On the other hand I know what it's like for your party to show up with characters so gimped that it seesm like they purposefully built them to fail.

I started a campaign with two friends last summer with the intention that others might join the two-man party later. They were starting at level three and needed to try to be a complete adventuring party with only two players. I told them they could use ANY 3.5 or pathfinder source for their characters and them came to me with a fighter 3 sword and board; and a ranger 1/rogue 1/ranger 1 (he planned on taking rogue and ranger levels alternatively all the way up).

[Captain Kablam]

Honestly, kinda sounds like natural selection, trap stabbing is just askin for trouble.

Frankly, when it comes to non rogues and traps, after tagging them with the same trap a couple of times, I'd let their spot and search checks pick up on something particular, such as a crevice in the plating or a carving in the wall. At least for physical traps. Mystical traps require the oh so important spells of "Detect Magic", "Dispel magic", etc.

But again this is all my opinion.

[Sir Chuckles]

My opinion:
Don't remove the ones that are designed to hurt, but do remove the particularly brutal ones.
I'd say "Resetting Fireball Trap, but it only resets 3 times". As for the chain lightning, I'd change that to something that doesn't punish everyone heavily for one person's mistake. Maybe something keyed off a low Will or Fortitude, rather than a blasty Reflex.

[Azoth]

Well to be fair barbarians (trapkiller), Ranger (trapmaster), Rogue, Factorum, Psychic Rogue, and probably a few more I can't think of atm can all handle traps with just skill points. I personally am amazed at how often parties don't have a trap monkey at the help in dungeons/labrynths/old ruins/ancient burial sites...ect.

Whether it be a PC or NPC when going somewhere that might be trap filled you ALWAYS bring along a designated trap springer.

To the point: Maybe let them back track out of the dungeon back to town and try to wrangle up an NPC or the new PC to come along and help out for a fee.

[CrazyYanmega]

Honestly, kinda sounds like natural selection, trap stabbing is just askin for trouble.

Frankly, when it comes to non rogues and traps, after tagging them with the same trap a couple of times, I'd let their spot and search checks pick up on something particular, such as a crevice in the plating or a carving in the wall. At least for physical traps. Mystical traps require the oh so important spells of "Detect Magic", "Dispel magic", etc.

But again this is all my opinion.

Once they set off the trap the first time, I ruled that anyone witnessing automatically knew where the trap was, and where its trigger was.

Bypassing the dungeon is not possible. This is the first dungeon, and pretty much all of the plot hooks for the campaign stem from this dungeon.

The traps said they were CR 3-5. It was an oversized party of level 10 characters. I expected that they would breeze past them.

Gobldygook is not the boss of the dungeon. He was more of a dangerous mental patient.

EDIT: Was.

[Sir Chuckles]

Once they set off the trap the first time, I ruled that anyone witnessing automatically knew where the trap was, and where its trigger was.

Bypassing the dungeon is not possible. This is the first dungeon, and pretty much all of the plot hooks for the campaign stem from this dungeon.

The traps said they were CR 3-5. It was an oversized party of level 10 characters. I expected that they would breeze past them.

Gobldygook is not the boss of the dungeon. He was more of a dangerous mental patient.

10th Level characters unable to bypass a dungeon?
Ha, they're just not creative enough. I mean, that Rogue was carrying an greatsword of everyone's favorite digging material!

This is very much on your player's shoulders, not your's. Don't railroad them into the traps, but don't hide them from them either. The less organic the campaign and session are, the less of a game it becomes.

[CrazyYanmega]

This got me chuckling pretty well. I probably wouldn't have sphere or annihilation'd the area of the broken trap (I actually don't use magical resetting traps) but still, hilarious.

Unfortunately, my alternative, an ACTUAL explosion, would have collapsed the dungeon and resulted in a totally legitimate "Rocks Fall, everyone dies" which I REALLY wanted to avoid.

[Darrin]

Required reading: Bad Trap Syndrome (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/90/bad-trap-syndrome/). Also, Part 2 (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/91/bad-trap-syndrome-curing-the-bad-trap-blues/).

In a nutshell: Don't make the PCs "search for traps". Make them obvious to spot. The most interesting part of the trap is watching the party interact with the trap to try and circumvent it. Otherwise, you're just inflicting an arbitrary "HP Tax" on the PCs.

[The Prince of Cats]

There are two solutions;

Give everyone a chance to check for traps; anyone can find a trap, rogues just get a bonus. There are other ways of disabling traps, as long as you have a spell-caster or a 10-ft pole.
Let the surviving rogue redistribute their skill-points. My current DM has a rule about letting players rework characters if it's obvious they made a bad choice. That's how my (PF) ranger swapped a useless raven companion for a hunter's bond with his party. This gives players the chance to 'take back' bad choices like putting skill-points in the wrong place.


On the other hand...

My current group started with two players, so we had a ranger and a wizard at level one. No healing, no disabling traps, but we still worked through a normal campaign without removing traps or adding in healing potions. Yes, I needed to use the Heal skill to suck poison from the wizard's finger after we failed to notice a trap, but that's the only time we ever had an issue. Even my current rogue is charismatic rather than sneaky-stabby and so I mess up traps.

Maybe it's just playing in a party who have been together about 18 months now, but we work through our short-comings and it's kid of fun. We try to find creative ways around issues, like the time we used stone-shape to circumvent a huge adamantine door that was glowing with all the many high-DC protective enchantments it had.

[Psyren]

Required reading: Bad Trap Syndrome (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/90/bad-trap-syndrome/). Also, Part 2 (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/91/bad-trap-syndrome-curing-the-bad-trap-blues/).

While I'm not a fan of the No Spot Check thing, the other parts of these articles were solid gold and I second this recommendation.

[CrazyYanmega]

Required reading: Bad Trap Syndrome (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/90/bad-trap-syndrome/). Also, Part 2 (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/91/bad-trap-syndrome-curing-the-bad-trap-blues/).

In a nutshell: Don't make the PCs "search for traps". Make them obvious to spot. The most interesting part of the trap is watching the party interact with the trap to try and circumvent it. Otherwise, you're just inflicting an arbitrary "HP Tax" on the PCs.

In case my above posts haven't made it clear, my players have a bit of chronic "Swiss-Army Stabbing" disorder. Making a trap obvious just means they either stab it, shoot arrows at it, or at best take the time to move 5 feet around it.

[Psyren]

Well, the point of the articles is showing you how to design good traps. Namely, traps that can't simply be stabbed/shot/bypassed, but that also don't instagib parties with no rogue or an unlucky rogue. (And not the rogue either.)

For example, one of the traps in the article is a corridor where poison darts shoot at the party every X steps. You can't stab, shoot or walk 5 feet around something like that. They made it so that having a rogue is helpful to the group (e.g. he can tell the party where to step, which translates to all of them getting an AC or save bonus vs. the darts) but he's not simply rolling once and the trap is no more.

[Urpriest]

Also, magic traps are a type of magic item, you can sunder them just fine unless they've got an explicit mechanic like the staff of power.

After all, if the ability to cast a spell an infinite number of times made you explosive when stabbed, what would happen if you poked a Warlock?

More relevantly though, most dungeons won't have traps since most dungeons of interest to the PCs have organized groups in them that are trying to accomplish something, and traps kind of get in the way. What purpose did the traps in this dungeon serve in-setting?

[OldTrees1]

After the party triggered a self-resetting Fireball trap 4-5 times, and me discovering to my dismay that NEITHER rogue had invested in what I consider the two most critical trapfinding skills, Rogue number 2 told party members to stand back, because awesome is about to happen.

HE PROCEEDED TO STAB THE TRAP. The magical trap that holds a theoretically infinite amount of magic.

Sounds like Rogue #2 decided to roleplay disable device. This sounds like standard AD&D disarming of traps. If it was an arrow trap then I would expect he would try to plug it up instead.

Question: Why did a non epic trap hold a "theoretically infinite amount of magic"? An efficient resetting fireball trap would have a fireball dweomer and a mana collection dweomer(resetting traps have a reset time afterall).

[Psyren]

More relevantly though, most dungeons won't have traps since most dungeons of interest to the PCs have organized groups in them that are trying to accomplish something, and traps kind of get in the way.

I wouldn't say "most" here. For starters, magic traps can discriminate - so you can indeed have, say, a cult that goes about its business in corridors lined with glyphs and symbols that only target goody-two-shoes intruders, or a drow palace whose traps are tuned to catch infiltrating elves etc.

For mechanical traps there are plenty of reasons to mix monsters and machines as well. For starters, the safe parts of the dungeon that the "employees" use may not be available to the PCs, forcing them to take more dangerous routes. A ready example would be Luke, Han and Leia in the trash compactor. Or the dungeon may not be staffed at all - it could just be a series of traps with a prize at the end (like a pharoah's tomb), but monsters who don't mind the traps move in for easy meals of the failed robbers. An example would be ochre jellies moving into a pyramid full of swinging blade and spike traps, exploiting their immunity to move throughout the complex with impunity and even reproduce. A third example is just a generally hazardous area that isn't meant to be a "trap" at all, like an industrial plant or the gears of a giant mill or clock, but is nevertheless made up of individual elements that follow trap-like rules. And so on.

[Darrin]

In case my above posts haven't made it clear, my players have a bit of chronic "Swiss-Army Stabbing" disorder. Making a trap obvious just means they either stab it, shoot arrows at it, or at best take the time to move 5 feet around it.

Stabbing the trap is much more interesting than announcing, "You lose 10 hit points because reasons." At least they're interacting with it. If they decide to walk around it, that's fine, too. At least they get the choice to interact with it or walk away.

Put in a couple traps that they can stab, just to start out with. Then try some traps where stabbing it works, but the damage/noise has some sort of downside. For example, it alerts creatures in the next room so they can set up an ambush. Or destroying the gold-plated acid-spraying statue halves it's resale value as an art object. Then work them up to traps that don't respond well to stabbing. When they disable a trap without stabbing, announce something like, "You lucky bastards. That was a really nasty trap. You get double XP for that one." Baby steps.

[Urpriest]

I wouldn't say "most" here. For starters, magic traps can discriminate - so you can indeed have, say, a cult that goes about its business in corridors lined with glyphs and symbols that only target goody-two-shoes intruders, or a drow palace whose traps are tuned to catch infiltrating elves etc.

For mechanical traps there are plenty of reasons to mix monsters and machines as well. For starters, the safe parts of the dungeon that the "employees" use may not be available to the PCs, forcing them to take more dangerous routes. A ready example would be Luke, Han and Leia in the trash compactor. Or the dungeon may not be staffed at all - it could just be a series of traps with a prize at the end (like a pharoah's tomb), but monsters who don't mind the traps move in for easy meals of the failed robbers. An example would be ochre jellies moving into a pyramid full of swinging blade and spike traps, exploiting their immunity to move throughout the complex with impunity and even reproduce. A third example is just a generally hazardous area that isn't meant to be a "trap" at all, like an industrial plant or the gears of a giant mill or clock, but is nevertheless made up of individual elements that follow trap-like rules. And so on.

So you've got organizations with lots of secrecy and magic access, industrial pseudo-traps, and tombs/vaults. I agree there is a range of scenarios where traps are appropriate, but I don't think you'd argue that they apply to all, or even most, adventures.

That, broadly, is my point. Sure, traps make sense once every few adventures, to spice things up and make PCs think about the environment. But they're hardly an "every dungeon all the time" sort of thing. They're not common enough that expecting a party member to devote large amounts of build resources to them is particularly reasonable.

[Slipperychicken]

I always imagine infinite-use items as simply replenishing their magic fast enough to be used again and again, instead of having infinite magic stored inside them.

Also, I'd still rule that he needs to roll Search to find the trap, even after it triggers once. Unless it was something like a bear-trap or a pit trap. Maybe he'd get a +4 bonus to search for a trap he already triggered.

[Psyren]

So you've got organizations with lots of secrecy and magic access, industrial pseudo-traps, and tombs/vaults. I agree there is a range of scenarios where traps are appropriate, but I don't think you'd argue that they apply to all, or even most, adventures.

That, broadly, is my point. Sure, traps make sense once every few adventures, to spice things up and make PCs think about the environment. But they're hardly an "every dungeon all the time" sort of thing. They're not common enough that expecting a party member to devote large amounts of build resources to them is particularly reasonable.

Well, that's the thing - I think that complicated deathtraps might be uncommon, sure... but remember too that very basic obstacles like alarms, tripwires, and even a portcullis or two are also traps, and you could expect to see stuff like that just about everywhere. What office building is without a security system of some kind in our day? Basically none, and I'd expect any villain's base or secured location worth anything to be the same.

What I'm getting at, is that traps don't have to be "something extraneous you throw in the dungeon to give the rogue something to do." Something like an alarm just makes sense if you have the (very basic) magic needed to make one, and from there it's a very short hop to make it trigger on do-gooder alignments. It's a low bar.

[CrazyYanmega]

I also don't get the reasoning that traps should be spotted automatically. To me it also means that secret doors and hidden compartments should also be plainly visible. What kind of trap have you seen that has a glowing neon sign that says "Trap here, do not step in?"

Really, if I were to use that ruling I would indicate to my players that the Search skill does not exist, and to not waste time investing skill points in it.

[Starbuck_II]

HE PROCEEDED TO STAB THE TRAP. The magical trap that holds a theoretically infinite amount of magic.

My dungeon now has a perfectly round, 40 ft diameter sphere of nothing in it. Needless to say, Rogue number two no longer exists, but unfortunately the Half-minotaur also got caught in the blast.




While a mite mean, I'm fine with this, but why 40 ft diameter. It should have been 20 ft diameter as the spell was a Fireball. It creates no pressure. Did he fail his Evasion check?
Evasion should have still activated.

[Urpriest]

While a mite mean, I'm fine with this, but why 40 ft diameter. It should have been 20 ft diameter as the spell was a Fireball. It creates no pressure. Did he fail his Evasion check?
Evasion should have still activated.

Diameter, not radius.

[Slipperychicken]

Diameter, not radius.

For clarity, fireballs have a 20ft radius.

The diameter of a circle (d) is 2r, where r is the radius of that circle.

d = 2r = 2*20ft = 40ft.

[Psyren]

I also don't get the reasoning that traps should be spotted automatically. To me it also means that secret doors and hidden compartments should also be plainly visible. What kind of trap have you seen that has a glowing neon sign that says "Trap here, do not step in?"

The idea is that finding the trap isn't very engaging. Typically it's only up to one guy, and even if he spots it successfully he's the only one who gets to roll to get rid of it, and if he gets rid of it then either you wasted a bunch of time designing it (complex trap) or it didn't mean much of anything anyway (simple trap.)

So truly engaging traps are more about solving a puzzle - preferably the kind where everybody gets to pitch in - that the binary see-it/don't-see-it/disarm-it/don't-disarm-it one-player tango that they usually end up being in 3.x.



Really, if I were to use that ruling I would indicate to my players that the Search skill does not exist, and to not waste time investing skill points in it.

Well, it was taken out of Pathfinder. Or more accurately, it was combined with Spot and Listen, so every player had reason to take it, and trapfinding is no longer needed to find high-DC traps.

[CrazyYanmega]

This is the first dungeon, so I wasn't putting a whole lot of thought into the traps. Creative traps will come in at a later date, but for now it was supposed to be "head's up, I use traps."

[The Prince of Cats]

I also don't get the reasoning that traps should be spotted automatically.
What's the DC to see a dead body?

Even if we assume there's no fresh body, how about the DC to realise that the passageway you are walking down hasn't had the dust disturbed in months or to notice that every wall is covered in soot?

It's not so much 'you see a trap' and more 'something is not right here' to my mind. It takes a rogue to work out where the danger is, to find a way to disable or circumvent it, but most traps (unless carefully maintained or magically self-cleaning) would leave some sign of their existence.

Or, of course, there's the anti-personnel mine approach: 'The tile beneath your foot gives way with an audible click, but nothing has exploded yet and you are pretty sure moving your foot would be a bad idea' - a trap you might have found with a suitable search roll (but didn't) is now an interactive experience for all the party.

[Psyren]

It's not so much 'you see a trap' and more 'something is not right here' to my mind. It takes a rogue to work out where the danger is, to find a way to disable or circumvent it, but most traps (unless carefully maintained or magically self-cleaning) would leave some sign of their existence.

And now I picture the rogue out in front of the party - wearing a fedora, naturally - muttering to himself "the penitent man will pass" as he nervously inches forward.

[John Longarrow]

CrazyYanmega

In general, there are several main uses for traps:

1) They are part of the defenses of a dungeon/stronghold/what ever. Ask the Viet Cong why using cheap mechanical defenses in depth works better than trying to put a lot of troops into an area. They will also give you a boat load of different kinds of area denial systems.

2) They augment the defenders. Traps that DON'T affect the defenders but harm intruder are force multiplier that help make defenders better.

3) They are situational and can be turned on/off. If you have a pin you pull that turns the bridge into a death trap after you've crossed, that's a great way of making you escape route more secure.

4) They are the result of neglect/disuse. Think old tunnel that starts falling down as people walk through it.

So long as you keep your traps as a natural extension of the dungeon you should be OK and your party should adapt to a realistic expectation. Some times a trapped area should be obvious. Other times, not so much. The trap should still make sense in context though.

Were I DMing, I'd have made sure the players understand that traps exists and they are used when it makes sense. I'd also let your CDO (That's how a true OBSESIVE would arrange the letters...) rogue rearrange their skill points.

[The Prince of Cats]

And now I picture the rogue out in front of the party - wearing a fedora, naturally - muttering to himself "the penitent man will pass" as he nervously inches forward.
Sounds like a kobold (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ncfd?What-are-Tuckers-Kobolds)trap; something they can run through with impunity, but which will kill any fool trying to chase them...

Spot check to notice that the kobolds are all 3-4" shorter than the grooves on the walls, to notice the bodies on the floor are all headless, to get 'a bad feeling about this' when the rogue thinks it all looks familiar...

[Psyren]

Noticing bodies are headless is probably something I wouldn't even roll for, or I'd let him take 10 outside of combat (or with skill mastery in combat) to see that as there would be no distractions.

Otherwise yeah, that does sound like something the scaly buggers would come up with.

[John Longarrow]

Sounds like a kobold (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ncfd?What-are-Tuckers-Kobolds)trap; something they can run through with impunity, but which will kill any fool trying to chase them...

Spot check to notice that the kobolds are all 3-4" shorter than the grooves on the walls, to notice the bodies on the floor are all headless, to get 'a bad feeling about this' when the rogue thinks it all looks familiar...

Yes, because being Kobolds this screams what kind of trap it is.

PIT TRAP.

If you weigh more than 50 lbs the floor gives way. The groove is just to distract those hapless adventurers who don't have a skilled rogue...

:xykon:

[The Prince of Cats]

Yes, because being Kobolds this screams what kind of trap it is.

PIT TRAP.

If you weigh more than 50 lbs the floor gives way. The groove is just to distract those hapless adventurers who don't have a skilled rogue...

:xykon:

Nope...

The first time you see it, it's a blade-trap, maybe the second too, then you suddenly find that it's a pit-trap the third time you encounter it. And while you are trying to fish the rogue out of the pit, they are sniping at you through conveniently-placed murder-holes.

[John Longarrow]

Prince of Cats,
I'm use to sneaky Kobolds. If you disarm the pit trap, the trap that uses the grooves in the walls is enabled. These spray alchemical fire (aimed to miss Kobolds). The headless corpses are decoys placed there by the Kobolds.

This also distracts from the murder holes in the ceiling, arrow launchers at the end of the corridor, and the drop ceiling at the end that both grooves curve up towards. If you do survive past the sprayed flame, then the Kobolds release the death roller that follows the grooves. Said roller has many blades and mallots attached. After it hits you, you get pushed forcefully through the undropped floor into the spike pit below.

Once you are stuck at the bottom of the pit, they open the flood gates to fill the pit with water. Salt water. Salt water with lemon juice added.

[CrazyYanmega]

What's the DC to see a dead body?

Even if we assume there's no fresh body, how about the DC to realise that the passageway you are walking down hasn't had the dust disturbed in months or to notice that every wall is covered in soot?

It's not so much 'you see a trap' and more 'something is not right here' to my mind. It takes a rogue to work out where the danger is, to find a way to disable or circumvent it, but most traps (unless carefully maintained or magically self-cleaning) would leave some sign of their existence.

Or, of course, there's the anti-personnel mine approach: 'The tile beneath your foot gives way with an audible click, but nothing has exploded yet and you are pretty sure moving your foot would be a bad idea' - a trap you might have found with a suitable search roll (but didn't) is now an interactive experience for all the party.

In-game, this is a brand-spanking new dungeon, so there aren't... er, WEREN'T, any corpses. I do like that idea about not triggering until they move off it though. Thanks!

[Slipperychicken]

Prince of Cats,
I'm use to sneaky Kobolds. If you disarm the pit trap, the trap that uses the grooves in the walls is enabled. These spray alchemical fire (aimed to miss Kobolds). The headless corpses are decoys placed there by the Kobolds.


How do you disarm a pit trap? It's a concealed hole in the ground.

[Sir Chuckles]

How do you disarm a pit trap? It's a concealed hole in the ground.

Probably assuming that it's a trap door trigger or something similar. Very Scooby-Doo.

[The Prince of Cats]

How do you disarm a pit trap? It's a concealed hole in the ground.

A couple of wooden planks?

For traps like this, my rogue carries a selection of coloured chalks to mark out things like trigger-tiles and safe spaces to place your feet; a pit-trap is less effective when accompanied by a sign telling you it's there...

[John Longarrow]

Pit traps should never be counted on to actually affect the party directly. They should be used to limit areas the party can move through or otherwise affect terrain.

A great use for a concealed pit trap is as an easy escape for a BBEG. Have a concealed pit in an alcove. BBEG moves into alcove and falls 10'. BBEG then goes through secret door/small passage/what ever to get away from party.

Once in the pit, BBEG should have complete cover from party while retaining a standard action!