DM wants to allow 3.0 supplements!

[Zethex]

So my DM, who DMs for the first time, just announced that he allows the 3.0 class supplements, by virtue of having them available in our native language.

I am a bit confused by the actual implications of this, both in general and for my level 1 sorcerer in particular (especially Tome and Blood).

Is there anything in particular we should be aware of? And how valuable are the talents and spells in those books? Anything that clashes/is unplayable with 3.5 core? Anything that is improperly balanced and that I especially (as a spell caster in a party including a monk and a fighter) should stay away from to not sap the fun my party mates. Or something to make those low tier classes more competitive in a relatively low OP environment?

This is the first campaign (upcoming 3rd session) for two of our players and till now 3.5 core was the only books we were using.

Any advice is appreciated.

[Kraken]

I've seen people say that because the ambidextrous feat wasn't specifically ruled to not be allowed after 3.5 was released, that it's still legal to use with 3.5 things. I have no idea if there's any truth to that, but the argument exists.

[Captnq]

It widens your options. Most 3.0 stuff sucks, sometimes it's super awesome. By RAW it's all allowed unless it was reprinted and updated in 3.5

Send him to the link in my sig below. I think that's what he's looking for.

[OldTrees1]

3.5 imports all 3.0 content that it does not update.

[SiuiS]

Old trees is correct; all games by default allow 3.0 material. It is often overlooked, and much of it has been updated, but for things that are not, it is still valid material. Just be aware that some things will be weird, like alchemy, scrying, and intuit direction. They are no longer class skills. Or skills at all.



Ambidexterity was updated as a class feature which allows you to ignore penalties on appropriate rolls (such as two weapon fighting attacks) of up to your dexterity bonus. Just so y'all know.

[BrokenChord]

Nothing worth looking at this soon, but Candle Mage is broken in ways that make 3.5 Incantatrix look tame.

[OldTrees1]

Ambidexterity was updated as a class feature which allows you to ignore penalties on appropriate rolls (such as two weapon fighting attacks) of up to your dexterity bonus. Just so y'all know.

Where? The Ambidexterity class feature of the 3.5 Tempest class only reduces TWF penalties by 1 and then 1 again. No mention of dexterity bonus.

[Zethex]

By RAW it's all allowed unless it was reprinted and updated in 3.5

Thing is that we have ready access to those 3.0 books now, but none of us will cross reference all the various features to see if they have been reprinted in one of the many 3.5 books. Especially because those 3.0 books are in German and any 3.5 material would be English, not to mention pirated and at least two of my party members are against participating in piracy personally, even if they aren't against us doing it.

On the other hand, I kinda hoped to not read those 5 books in their entirety to see what possibilities each of it gives to each of us players:smalltongue:. I was really looking forward to what stuff you all remember from that time.

By the way, the 3.0 books we have (in German) are:

Song and Silence: A Guidebook to Bards and Rogues
Masters of the Wild: A Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids, and Rangers
Sword and Fist: A Guidebook to Monks and Fighters
Tome and Blood: A Guidebook to Wizards and Sorcerers
Fiend Folio
Other than that we have the 3.5 Core (PHB, DMG, MM1) and the Magic Item Compendium, which I'll probably read once we reach a city for the first time.

[SiuiS]

Where? The Ambidexterity class feature of the 3.5 Tempest class only reduces TWF penalties by 1 and then 1 again. No mention of dexterity bonus.

Oh, if that's the case then I'm
Probably misremembering a third party feat's effect as the class feature.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Thing is that we have ready access to those 3.0 books now, but none of us will cross reference all the various features to see if they have been reprinted in one of the many 3.5 books. Especially because those 3.0 books are in German and any 3.5 material would be English, not to mention pirated and at least two of my party members are against participating in piracy personally, even if they aren't against us doing it.

On the other hand, I kinda hoped to not read those 5 books in their entirety to see what possibilities each of it gives to each of us players:smalltongue:. I was really looking forward to what stuff you all remember from that time.


If your group finds something they like in 3.0, those of you with good English second language skills (major prop on that by the way) can go to http://dndtools.eu/.

Search by spell, class, feat or what have you. That website will list all the publications of said spell or what have you. You can then look at the list and see if it has updated to 3.5 and in what source book.

[Karnith]

Nothing worth looking at this soon, but Candle Mage is broken in ways that make 3.5 Incantatrix look tame.
Can you explain this?
if you were being serious
It looks like it mostly just gives alternate ways of making scrolls, and then you get Striped Candle, which is a good, but not amazing, ability.

[tomandtish]

Thing is that we have ready access to those 3.0 books now, but none of us will cross reference all the various features to see if they have been reprinted in one of the many 3.5 books. Especially because those 3.0 books are in German and any 3.5 material would be English, not to mention pirated and at least two of my party members are against participating in piracy personally, even if they aren't against us doing it.

On the other hand, I kinda hoped to not read those 5 books in their entirety to see what possibilities each of it gives to each of us players:smalltongue:. I was really looking forward to what stuff you all remember from that time.

By the way, the 3.0 books we have (in German) are:

Song and Silence: A Guidebook to Bards and Rogues
Masters of the Wild: A Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids, and Rangers
Sword and Fist: A Guidebook to Monks and Fighters
Tome and Blood: A Guidebook to Wizards and Sorcerers
Fiend Folio
Other than that we have the 3.5 Core (PHB, DMG, MM1) and the Magic Item Compendium, which I'll probably read once we reach a city for the first time.

Looks like you are missing Defenders of the Faith. Hopefully no Clerics or Paladins in your group...

[holywhippet]

Wasn't psionics in 3.0 badly broken compared to 3.5?

[Karnith]

Wasn't psionics in 3.0 badly broken compared to 3.5?
It was godawful, yeah. Manifesting was dependent on 6 ability scores (one for each discipline), psionic combat was terrible, powers scaled badly; it wasn't fun.

There's a semi-famous copypasta explaining just how much fun it was, which funnily enough just came up in another thread:

I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"
Luckily, they don't seem to be using the Psionics Handbook, so they should be okay.

[BrokenChord]

Can you explain this?
if you were being serious
It looks like it mostly just gives alternate ways of making scrolls, and then you get Striped Candle, which is a good, but not amazing, ability.

Mostly scribing scrolls with metamagic above what level spells you can cast. Now, sadly, I misremembered what one of the abilities was due to not having looked at the class in six months (namely, I thought Quick Lighting was Quicken Candle), and Striped Candle loses a lot of its greatness with the update to Haste. My own failure (I'm a 3.0 player, and I forgot about 3.5's Haste update).

Okay, so it's not as fantastic as Incantatrix. I still find it worth checking out, though.

[Karnith]

Mostly scribing scrolls with metamagic above what level spells you can cast.
Er, I don't think you can do that, unless there's some other silly bypass that I'm not seeing. Per Tome and Blood:

A scribed candle may incorporate any number of the special enhancements noted below, as long as their combined requirements do not make the spell take up a spell slot higher than the caster's normal maximum.