what's the beef with third party?

[Raishoiken]

This isn't something I've had answered yet, though I've known the beef has been there for awhile. part of why I wanna know is that I plan on posting some builds in the future, and some of them are probably gonna include some third party. Anyone?

[Kazudo]

For some DMs and optimizers, the issue kinda comes down to the fact that most third party books (whether it be Paizo for Pathfinder or WoTC for 3.5) aren't very clearly edited and combed over by the original manufacturers, which means that while some 3rd party books are balanced within themselves (some used VERY lightly in this case), they most likely will NOT be balanced with the rest of WoTC's stuff.

3rd party is kind of as close to "official homebrew" as you can get without it being official.

[Agincourt]

The quality of third party is particularly uneven. For anyone who thinks WOTC was particularly bad at balance, third party publishers often show that WOTC's balance was pretty good. Largely, this can be due to a need to sell books. There are only so many new ideas a writer can come up with. It's a lot easier to make up abilities or spells if you do not have to worry about it being properly balanced.

There are a handful of publishers that have earned good reputations for balancing things well, but they are the minority.

[Vhaidara]

I'm guessing part of this is coming from the threads by Heyiamabear. That particular book looks okay, except for a few things. It lists "Regeneration" as being worth +2 LA. In this case, Heyimabear decided that meant he could take the regeneration from the Tarrasque and slap it on his character for 2 LA.

It's things like that. They are simply worded very badly, leaving them open to blatant exploitation.

[docnessuno]

Also, regardless of the quality of 3rd party material, working only with official WoTC stuff gives optimizers a defined framework.

Some 3rd party stuff IS good (IE: pathfinder Psionics), but once you open the door to 3rd party you don't know what will come in.

Let's suppose someone asks for advice on a character, stating that 3rd party material is allowed:


I would suggest you to pick race A from B publisher, as it really suits your build.


But race C from D publisher is more powerful, it has the same stat modifiers plus a plethora of positive racial features!


No, you really want race E from F publisher, it's a LA +0 race with +20 to all stats and immunity to damage.


That's clearly not balanced, all the stuff from F publisher is poorly written and tested.

And so on...

[Big Fau]

Let's start with something small (and I'm working from memory here): There's a 3E Sword and Sorcery book that has a section about improving your familiar. One of the improvements you can give it is an SLA of any spell you have access to (via scrolls perhaps). It can use the SLA multiple times each day.

The price for doing this is fairly minimal and doesn't take into account XP components. IIRC, the price for giving your familiar Wish as an SLA is around 4,500gp.

The balance for 3rd party sources is all over the place, some being utterly unplayable due to bad editing and others being game breakers on par with the Big 6. Very few 3rd party publishers have a dedicated editing team either, so it's easy for bad wording or omitted sections to pop up.

[Piggy Knowles]

*snip*


This, very much this. I have the same issue with homebrew. There are a lot of neat options found in homebrew and in third party books. However, when I DM, I don't allow either unless it's something I've explicitly looked through and vetted. Whenever possible, I try to encourage a first-party option in its place, because honestly, there is a gigantic amount of first-party material; you can find almost anything if you look hard enough.

But more than anything, it's difficult to talk about, because as docnessuno mentioned, allowing third party means people will inevitably chime in with more and more ridiculous options, and also because third party books tend to have limited distribution, so only a few of us will actually have access to the source in question.

[MadGreenSon]

In my personal experience, you need to be much more careful with the third party material even when just using it for DM purposes, much less opening things to the players.

If I'm considering opening some third party or homebrew to my players I usually go over it carefully to see if there's anything more breakable than standard, if it's a trap (looks good, really isn't), and of course, if it will add anything useful or interesting to my games.

I know that I have never approved an entire third party book wholesale. Parts of books, yes. Specific items/spells/PrCs, sure. Never an entire book.

I have even approved sections of the BoEF after my players (the big lovable perverts :smalltongue:)lobbied for it, but not the whole book and none of the classes or PrCs and almost none of the feats, none of the races, and maybe 45% of the spells.

They learned to live with it.

Bringing in third party stuff to a game is a lot of work if done responsibly. When talking optimization online, it's just easier to leave it out so everyone speaks the same language.

[Psyren]

1) Opening the door

docnessuno covered this one admirably but it bears repeating; a lot of the time, blanket bans on 3rd party are just to avoid the hassle of then having to individually vet everything the players want to bring to the table. The line between 3rd-party and straight up homebrew is blurry enough as it is, so you can end up just plain letting the player make stuff up to put on their sheet. This is not to say that homebrew/3PP are inherently bad, just that Sturgeon's Law applies as it so often does and so if the DM does not tightly restrict allowed 3PP sources you could easily end up with one of the horror-stories in this very thread.

2) Obscurity

This goes hand-in-hand with the first issue. First-party product forms a common language of discourse for us. Even if I don't own a copy of Dungeonscape for instance, a few quick Google searches will give me a very good idea of what a Factotum is, what it can do and things I may need to watch out for or pre-emptively houserule. This takes a lot less effort for a DM than actually combing through the material alone, and is much more likely to be effective. Handbooks supercharge this process too, because they're often packed with rules exploits or ambiguities the community has noticed, often prefaced with a mild tag to "ask your DM."

Too often, 3PP has none of these advantages - not because it's not good, but just because it's not widespread and the community hasn't gotten the chance to pick it apart. Without that advantage, the problems in #1 become exacerbated.

[Raishoiken]

I'm guessing part of this is coming from the threads by Heyiamabear. That particular book looks okay, except for a few things. It lists "Regeneration" as being worth +2 LA. In this case, Heyimabear decided that meant he could take the regeneration from the Tarrasque and slap it on his character for 2 LA.

It's things like that. They are simply worded very badly, leaving them open to blatant exploitation.

I actually know HeyThereImBear, it was one of my friends and I that showed him alot of the material for his things (the Tarrasque build he mentioned is mine, but I made it core for posting purposes). I understand that alot of 3rd party can be "unbalanced" as some would see it. My plan, for the cases in which I use it, is to assign higher level amusements to certain things than what my group normally does. things like getting the Tarrasque regeneration: there are several ways to get it, one of then literally being just adding it to a creature (via variant augmentation), but I'd give it an la based on the amount it gives and the fact that it's un bypassable. I hope my builds are well received >_<

[Grod_The_Giant]

1) Opening the door

2) Obscurity

This. Especially the second one, I'd say. Balance isn't the issue so much as obscurity-- most people know that the Gate is overpowered and the Truenamer doesn't function, but good luck having the same sort of knowledge about a third-party book. Even homebrew is probably better, at least when pulled from a forum like this one-- you can scroll down and read people's responses and feedback to get a better idea on how the material functions.

(The same objections usually apply to Dragon Magazine content, as well).

[MadGreenSon]

I actually know HeyThereImBear, it was one of my friends and I that showed him alot of the material for his things (the Tarrasque build he mentioned is mine, but I made it core for posting purposes). I understand that alot of 3rd party can be "unbalanced" as some would see it. My plan, for the cases in which I use it, is to assign higher level amusements to certain things than what my group normally does. things like getting the Tarrasque regeneration: there are several ways to get it, one of then literally being just adding it to a creature (via variant augmentation), but I'd give it an la based on the amount it gives and the fact that it's un bypassable. I hope my builds are well received >_<

So... you're the source then. What LA do you give the following ability?



Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.


I'm curious, really.

[Raishoiken]

So... you're the source then. What LA do you give the following ability?



I'm curious, really.

Yeeeaaah... It depends on starting level. The 40 Regen impassable for a level 1? at least +6 most likely more. for me, it always depends on what level the character is you're adding it to. Around what level does a fighter generally have the ability to deal that on a single hit?

[Vhaidara]

It's more the fact that it makes your HP irrelevant. A well optimized character can hit for 40 at 1 (crits op) and should have 50 minimum by level 6 (chargers especially)

However, this makes it so that no damage is lethal, so you cannot be killed by damage. And this specifically calls out death effects as not working, so you are immune to dying.

[Raishoiken]

It's more the fact that it makes your HP irrelevant. A well optimized character can hit for 40 at 1 (crits op) and should have 50 minimum by level 6 (chargers especially)

However, this makes it so that no damage is lethal, so you cannot be killed by damage. And this specifically calls out death effects as not working, so you are immune to dying.

True... Lol a large level adjustment...

[HeyThereImBear]

Poking to sauce the regen.

Please see "Book of deluxe templates: 3.5e"

Clearly states removing regeneration nets a -2 to LA.

So, by default, wouldn't adding it be the same as removing?

Also, I love that you pointed this out to me, brah. But don't take credit for things that carl found ;*

[Vhaidara]

Not that it's relevant since he's apparently spamming negative LA templates.

[Larkas]

I think that most of the problems with 3rd-party content, which also occurs to a lesser extent with licensed products (such as Dragon and Dungeon, among others), have already been covered. The relative obscurity of the source means that a lot of players haven't had the chance to look the rules in depth and pick it apart, knowing what does and doesn't work. As time goes by, this is less and less true of Dragon, for example, since people are taking an interest in it and picking it apart: what was once blanket-banned for convenience is now allowed on a case by case basis and more often than not by DMs who have a little more experience.

That said, I feel that a lot of the banning is borne out of a knee-jerk reaction to the unknown, not unlike the banning of 1st-party supplements or instituting a "core only" game. That's not unjustified, mind you, since as a DM you have to know rules interactions better than your players, and you might not be interested, or even have the time, to do the required reading, which is even more understandable for new DMs. But in my opinion being open-minded is the way to go. Your player wants to use Obscure Ability #298 found in Obscure Book #749? Give it a read! You don't have to read the whole book, just that sole ability/class (unless you're dealing with some new subsystem, but in my experience those are very rare). If you think it's broken, too bad, tell your player he'll have to choose something else. But if you think it's fair, then just let him have it, and maybe reserve the rights to revoke that decision if some weird interaction ever comes up. The game is much more fun that way!

PS: To be honest, D&D itself could be presented in a more modular fashion. That way, you could plug-in 3rd-Party Module #127 just as easily as you let go of Core Module #11, for example. As most of us know, the designers of the game didn't quite know what they were doing back in the day, and a lot of broken stuff is found in core itself. At the same time, a lot of reasonable stuff can be found in 1st and 3rd party supplements. "Take what you like, leave the rest out" is a great approach, in my opinion. D&D IS modular, mind you, but you have to have some system mastery to even notice that, let alone take advantage of it.

[Psyren]

^ Which is why I'm a big fan of the OGL, because it gives us great repositories like the PFSRD that erase the Obscurity problem, and creates brand recognition for the more talented 3PP devs allowing the DM solutions to the Door-Opening problem. (For example, the DM can say "I'm also allowing Dreamscarred Press material" which means that the player who wants to play a psychic warrior can do so, and the DM has a ready response to the other players saying "hey, he got a third party class approved, why can't I?" "That class is from my allowed sources list, you are welcome to also select a class or feats from their books if you like.")

[Larkas]

^ Which is why I'm a big fan of the OGL, because it gives us great repositories like the PFSRD that erase the Obscurity problem, and creates brand recognition for the more talented 3PP devs allowing the DM solutions to the Door-Opening problem. (For example, the DM can say "I'm also allowing Dreamscarred Press material" which means that the player who wants to play a psychic warrior can do so, and the DM has a ready response to the other players saying "hey, he got a third party class approved, why can't I?" "That class is from my allowed sources list, you are welcome to also select a class or feats from their books if you like.")

It addresses that issue, but it doesn't solve it altogether. Having your stuff in online SRDs is almost necessary to poke your head above the obscurity line, but it isn't sufficient. Having brand recognition is. People (rightly, IMHO) assume that DSP stuff is great because it is from DSP (the same way people assumed WotC supplements were good because they were from WotC), not because it is open and available online (which wasn't the case with WotC stuff, for example). I know of some fine stuff readily available in PFSRD that is, unfortunately, still obscure (example (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/sutra-magic)).

Now, having an SRD helps get the recognition because more people can have ready access to your stuff. It's a step in the right direction. But the way is longer than that.

[docnessuno]

It addresses that issue, but it doesn't solve it altogether. Having your stuff in online SRDs is almost necessary to poke your head above the obscurity line, but it isn't sufficient. Having brand recognition is. People (rightly, IMHO) assume that DSP stuff is great because it is from DSP (the same way people assumed WotC supplements were good because they were from WotC), not because it is open and available online (which wasn't the case with WotC stuff, for example). I know of some fine stuff readily available in PFSRD that is, unfortunately, still obscure (example (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/sutra-magic)).

Now, having an SRD helps get the recognition because more people can have ready access to your stuff. It's a step in the right direction. But the way is longer than that.

Also, while PFSRD covers the obscurity problem, it's a magnificent example of good material standing next to horribly written and poorly balanced stuff.

[Larkas]

Also, while PFSRD covers the obscurity problem, it's a magnificent example of good material standing next to horribly written and poorly balanced stuff.

Not unlike core D&D and core PF, (un)fortunately.

[HeyThereImBear]

Poking in.

Assuming you count mag stuff as acceptable:

Tarrasque + demon lord + perm. veil of undeath.


regen + imm. from subdual + unique ability that I can make say I you can't pass my regen.

And veil of undeath says you can't trait removal it.

[Psyren]

It addresses that issue, but it doesn't solve it altogether. Having your stuff in online SRDs is almost necessary to poke your head above the obscurity line, but it isn't sufficient. Having brand recognition is. People (rightly, IMHO) assume that DSP stuff is great because it is from DSP (the same way people assumed WotC supplements were good because they were from WotC), not because it is open and available online (which wasn't the case with WotC stuff, for example). I know of some fine stuff readily available in PFSRD that is, unfortunately, still obscure (example (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/sutra-magic)).

@ DSP: This is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. Yes we know they do quality stuff, but they still had to put their stuff out there for people to read before everyone knew they did quality stuff. This is why they released their own SRD back before they switched to PF, to get the word out, and being able to point to that (especially, I feel, their Soulknife fix) was what allowed that word of mouth to get around, and build their brand into the (relative) juggernaut it is today.

@ Sutra magic: The beauty is that it doesn't have to be all that widespread to avoid falling into the "obscurity" trap. If I'm a DM and my player e-mails me saying "I want to try this Sutra magic thing out," the first thing I'm probably going to do is Google it. It may not have the level of exposure that some other material does, but if even one person made a thread about it - especially in the usual spots (here, ENWorld, Paizo, reddit) I'm probably going to see it. With closed content, the chances that I don't find anything meaningful are much higher.

[Phelix-Mu]

I actually think that some third party stuff is pretty decent. The major issues are that, especially for the unexperienced, balanced stuff can look imbalanced and vice versa, the issue mentioned above about common access and obscurity, and finally the issue about table management, also mentioned above.

Personally, as a DM, I make use of some homebrew and modified stuff for my own purposes, and so when a player wants something new, I am inclined to be receptive. That said, it's definitely a heavy consideration, because there are many things out there that are impressively not balanced (both official and third party).

[(Un)Inspired]

My beef with 3rd party started 18 years ago. I was a wee lad when word spread through our village that riders from the north were storming down from the hills.

I saw with my own eyes 3rd party riding at the head of the fiendish hoard, the eyes of his black charger glowing like coals from the bowels of hell. I was just 6 summers at the time but the men of our village gathered their arms and prepared for the northmen's charge.

The sounds of their terrible steads was like a thunderous squall cannoning down from the hills. Men and beast let our hideous roars as their line slammed into our pikemen. I remember vividly the sight of horseflesh being torn from the bone as polearms slid through the animals flank. When I close my eyes I still see the image of hooves punching through Milhar the baker's skull.

Our warriors were well trained and our clerics strong in their faith. It was not enough. The men from the north had countless numbers and our wizards were few.

My mother wild shaped into a great scaled beast. Fire billowed off her venomous fangs and dozens of the barbarians fell to her talons before 3rd party confronted her directly. Her wisdom and mastery of magic were legendary among our people but 3rd party fought like a demon. He had extraordinary defenses that could not be penetrated. Her claws and rakes deflected harmlessly off him.

His mighty weapon hit with the force of a titans blade and every one of his strikes was true. I watched helplessly as he carved my mothers magically saurian body.

My father was supporting the warriors but as he saw my mother fall, he teleported to her side. I remember the anguish in every line of his face as he turned to grimace at 3rd party.

My father was known as a charmer and a bit of a roguish fop but no one doubted that his mastery of the arcane was the greatest in our village. Magic ran through he blood and he brought every drop to bare against 3rd party that day.

My father called out words in a language I had never understood and thick, ropey mist coalesced around 3rd party. It had a deep malignant colour, the type of mist I'd once seen gather around a grave. Whatever effect my father was hoping the mist to have on 3rd party never came to pass. The cur teleported through the mist directly above my father.

In the blink of an eye he swung his sword more than a twice dozen times. The body that had once belonged to my father spilled out across the snow in a multitude of pieces.

I had never felt such oppressive emptiness. Something poured out of this emotional fracture in me. I stretched out my hand and white hot energy shot forth in a brilliant psionic ray.

My power would have struck 3rd party had it not been for his mysterious field of deflection.

My attack didn't even warrant a violent reprimand from the man responsible for the death of my family. After his host gathered up the riches of our village he simply road out; seeking more pillage no doubt.

You asked me when I had a beef with 3rd party. I hope my story has illustrated why.

[The Insanity]

No beef, but sometimes 3rd party stuff is too ham.

[Larkas]

@ DSP: This is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. Yes we know they do quality stuff, but they still had to put their stuff out there for people to read before everyone knew they did quality stuff. This is why they released their own SRD back before they switched to PF, to get the word out, and being able to point to that (especially, I feel, their Soulknife fix) was what allowed that word of mouth to get around, and build their brand into the (relative) juggernaut it is today.

Dunno. I feel ("opinion" being the keyword here) that they were aces at PR. Along with their high quality stuff, they always had a "sunny" disposition, always open to hear from and showcase their stuff at different communities (even employing a few well-known homebrewers). At the same time, they tackled a very popular subsystem that still hadn't been converted to PF (I mean, they made a push for it in regular d20, but, AFAIK, they didn't become so well known until PF). Bottomline, they did everything right, at the right moment and with the right attitude. They are a case to be studied, but I don't know if their success can be so easily replicated.

Of course, this is not to diminish the importance of an SRD! M&M are another success case to be noted, and part of their success can surely be attributed to its SRD.


@ Sutra magic: The beauty is that it doesn't have to be all that widespread to avoid falling into the "obscurity" trap. If I'm a DM and my player e-mails me saying "I want to try this Sutra magic thing out," the first thing I'm probably going to do is Google it. It may not have the level of exposure that some other material does, but if even one person made a thread about it - especially in the usual spots (here, ENWorld, Paizo, reddit) I'm probably going to see it. With closed content, the chances that I don't find anything meaningful are much higher.

True, but it doesn't break the "entrance barrier". That subsystem is essentially buried in the PFSRD for everyone but a very few players. Which is why I considered for a while making a monthly article to showcase mostly unknown good 3rd-party material and post it here at the Playground (you can't hope to reach an audience this big by blogging). Unfortunately, I don't have what it takes to write one, let alone several, such article. :smallfrown:

[Captnq]

ARRRGGGGG!!! The Third Party! It burns Usss! It BURRNNNSSS USSSSSssss...

*scurries under a rock and wallows in the pit of writhing entrails that once spawned him*

Must not let the players see third party rules. Must keep it away. Yesss... away from the players... yesss....

My players are already a dungeon destroying machine.

You know what they have in PF? Some ability that lets you shoot shields at people and they come back to you. The rogue had figured out a way to MOUNT a heavy Shield on his Bow and shoot it at people to drain their levels and reset it every round thanks to Pathfinder.

No. Hell No. Oh Bloody No. Ten times NO. A thousand No's. The core rules are bad enough.

[Psyren]

Dunno. I feel ("opinion" being the keyword here) that they were aces at PR. Along with their high quality stuff, they always had a "sunny" disposition, always open to hear from and showcase their stuff at different communities (even employing a few well-known homebrewers). At the same time, they tackled a very popular subsystem that still hadn't been converted to PF (I mean, they made a push for it in regular d20, but, AFAIK, they didn't become so well known until PF). Bottomline, they did everything right, at the right moment and with the right attitude. They are a case to be studied, but I don't know if their success can be so easily replicated.

You don't have to be the next DSP for a DM to accept your stuff though. It just has to be somewhere he (and hopefully as many other people as possible) can easily read it. And some of the stuff you listed, again, happened after they became well-known. The hiring homebrewers thing is pretty recent.



True, but it doesn't break the "entrance barrier". That subsystem is essentially buried in the PFSRD for everyone but a very few players. Which is why I considered for a while making a monthly article to showcase mostly unknown good 3rd-party material and post it here at the Playground (you can't hope to reach an audience this big by blogging). Unfortunately, I don't have what it takes to write one, let alone several, such article. :smallfrown:

Naught you can really do there but keep plugging it :smallsmile: Google's little spiders will pick up on it.

[Larkas]

No. Hell No. Oh Bloody No. Ten times NO. A thousand No's. The core rules are bad enough.

You do understand that that could be an argument for 3rd-party, right? :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

One comment on the obscurity front: in general, certain 3rd party sources will be popular in certain places and unknown in others. On this forum, you'll have much more success asking after local homebrew, like the homebrew monster classes or Gramarie or the like, or after DSP stuff. But I'm sure there are other places where people can tell you about Frank&K material or the like.

[Larkas]

You don't have to be the next DSP for a DM to accept your stuff though. It just has to be somewhere he (and hopefully as many other people as possible) can easily read it. And some of the stuff you listed, again, happened after they became well-known. The hiring homebrewers thing is pretty recent.

Naught you can really do there but keep plugging it :smallsmile: Google's little spiders will pick up on it.

True, true. Heck, "sutra magic" already turns out the PFSRD as the first result on Google!

[Captnq]

You do understand that that could be an argument for 3rd-party, right? :smallsmile:

All I remember is, The player said, "hey, in PF that have this thing where you fire your shield at people as a free action." He caught me off guard and I said, "Sure." Next thing I know

Bow Blade with Shielding + Alchemical Gold + Shield Spikes + Oversized + Balanced + Teleporting + Absorbing = Something like 3d8 + level drain ever round as a free action. I forget the details.

Actually... Here. From the Noob Handbook


“Parts of the game were intended to be linear. but that is not how things worked out. You can unknowingly find yourself on the low side of that linear, or way beyond the high side. This is not a closed circuit of rules like Checkers. This is the most massive rule set ever. Here there be Dragons.”
- DM Golem

Trap 3
Everything has to be awesome.

Borderlands illustrates this absolutely perfectly for me. For those who are not familiar with it, it includes a weapon drop system that is randomized based on the power and type of creature that you kill, as well as the area in which you kill it. This leads to a phenomenon that most people who play the game are familiar with. You end up collecting terrible weapons that you wouldn't use even at 10 levels lower dropping from enemies at a frequent rate, weapons that you used to use at an uncommon rate, and then a new weapon to use every couple levels, or what seems like 15 bajillion hours later. People hated this (at least, people I knew), because, well, you just killed a boss, and he dropped some crap weapon that you can't use, they wanted something interesting dropping every time. While that makes sense from a player's standpoint, it's a horrible idea from a developer's standpoint. Those crap weapons need to exist to make the good weapons actually be good. If you constantly got better weapons (or even good weapons) you would end up with vastly overpowered weapons halfway through the game, and it would just not be fun. Not only that, but the choice would be hard, and people don't like that. And finally, it would make all of the guns seem the same (at least guns of a certain type). Does that last one sound familiar?

The reason so many guns were worthless was a mathematical certainty. If you have a good gun, then you have three options on any weapon drop: a better gun, the same gun, or a weaker gun. If there's a finite limit to power (which there is), then you will eventually run out of better guns, and every gun will be as good or worse. It's just a matter of how fast that happens. The slower you go, the more bad guns you'll experience on the way to the best, the faster you go the more time you'll spend with the best (making encounters too easy if you get better guns faster than you need them). And there's always room for complaint here because of it, since the balance is a subjective thing.

That same principle applies to D&D, though for a slightly different reason. In D&D, you have so many options that the likelihood of it not being a good option increases with each new system you add. Heck, each new tiny little ability (skill use, feat, etc.). It's a matter of complexity, it's so complex that it's absolutely impossible for any one person to look at every reaction and say "yup, that's going to affect this in this precise way". You can whine and such about how the core game is poorly balanced, but knowing what they knew then, it was balanced. Knowing what they know now, it's not. That's why ToB came out. And the classes like Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Binder, Incarnum, etc. The later you go into a system's development, the more reasonable the abilities become (note the balance and design on early supplements and core vs later supplements). And it's still really hard, because there's still combinations that they don't think of checking for.

So not every character has to be awesome. It’s okay to be okay. Sure, the game has a I-WIN mentality, but if you fit in with the group, then it’s okay to be average. And if you want to be the best, be the best, but don’t force everyone else to be the best right along with you. Every player is different and if you want to get people to improve, focus on talking about it in a friendly way, “Hey, ya know, if we work out your buffs ahead of time, we can really improve our chances of survival.” That’s a good way to put it. Ordering the Wizard to set aside certain slots for buffs, that you “need” because the combo is perfect with your X, will only make people want to strangle you.


So let me sum it up. At least WotC got better over time at game balance. Most 3rd party? It's usually created by someone who really doesn't know how to power game. Check out my Sig. See the EVD? I do that for fun. I write spreadsheets full of data and figure out ways to twist Draconic familiars into Demiliches. Why? *shrug* bored. Just like writing it.

And even having spent YEARS working on piles and piles of twisted rules I get blind sided from time to time.

That's the problem with 3rd party. People want to put out stuff that's AWESOME, so people buy it. They don't put out "useful" or "thoughtful" or "neat". I had a friend who wanted to get a small village published. It was a tiny town, but well thought out. The editor added like... fifty new shops. Like, this tiny town had a business that just made scarecrows.

Now my player is hard core power gamer. She looked at his work and said, "none of this makes sense. the city doesn't have enough water. it wouldn't have enough economic activity... blah blah blah." The editor's response? Did he tone it down? No. He moved the village to a major river and created a city. She told him, "I don't care what you pay me, you aren't putting my name on that."

Bigger Better Faster More.

There is no room for "subtle" in 3rd party. Most editors "think" they can evaluate rules on the fly, but they can't. I'm... good at it, but I know my limitations. I always err on the side of caution. WotC has problems, but they could be far worse.

[Phelix-Mu]

I actually rather like the Holy/Unholy Warrior stuff from Green Ronin (cue groans). While I am well aware of their rep, the LG Paladin archetype has always bothered me (specifically how badly they butchered the non-LG conjugates in 3e). Not to mention how normal paladin (sans extensive ACFs or build manipulation/multiclassing) can be quite underwhelming. The Holy Warriors Handbook (and the evil version of the same) set up their eponymous base classes with a system of thematic domains and granted abilities that allow for great customization potential. Many of the domain powers seem very strong, but still probably land the whole setup somewhere in Tier 3.

I've used them to good effect in my personal setting, and recommend them to people looking for ideas on how to homebrew improvements to Paladin (and the much more maligned Divine Mind and that other thing from MoI that no one ever talks about).

[Larkas]

--snip--

I beg your pardon, but I think you might be falling in two traps there. The first is thinking that everything put out by 3rd-party producers is poorly edited and balanced (or at least enough to not warrant a first, let alone second look), the second is thinking that WotC got absolutely better at editing (ToB begs to differ) and balancing (ToM begs to differ) over time.

That's not to say I don't understand what you're saying, it's just that you might be being too extreme about it. There is of course a lot of 3rd-party crap, but that doesn't mean there aren't gems out there. I could say the same about 1st-party stuff, though. The general path to a nice game, IMHO, is excluding 1st-party crap and including 3rd-party gems. Not everyone has the patience to do that, of course, but I've found it to be very fulfilling!

The experience you had with it might've been bad, and I totally understand that. And that's why a DM must always read a re-read the proposed ability and ponder if it's fitting for your game. What's more, you must reserve yourself the right to revoke access to it at any time if it breaks the game, and be upfront about it. That doesn't mean you need to close all the doors to 3rd-party, though it does mean more work than you might be willing to pour on it.

Myself, I take that stance with every material, be it core, 1st-party supplemental or 3rd-party.

And of course, this is all a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just explaining how I play. :smallsmile: