BTW, what IS up with Roy and his ego? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Piedmon_Sama

2007-02-03, 01:25 AM

Funny thing. I was in the gamestore today (buying CityScape--great suppliment, take my recommendation) and I came across a copy of No Cure for the Paladin Blues on my shelf. I picked it up and flipped to a random page... it was one of the Giant's commentaries/introductions before a chapter opening.

In the writeup, Burlew talked a bit about Roy. He explained that basically Roy is Lawful Good despite being brought up by a cantankerous, deprecating, sarcastic and verbally abusive father who never believed in or encouraged his son. (IMO, Eugene Greenhilt is probably a sarcastic and self-centered TN, just like his daughter.)

In other words, Roy acts unpleasant and short-tempered because that's how he was raised. It's his key flaw (every hero needs one) and his weakness. His growth as a character, to paraphrase what I read, depends on "his learning to ignore his instinct to lash out with a nasty quip and do the right thing."

I'm not trying to make excuses for Roy. He is often unpleasant and unfair to his faithful, if eccentric and often annoying friends. I think it's pretty clear though, that that deep down he DOES understand his responsibility to them, and is willing to put it all on the line for any of his comrades (even Belkar). He came as close to the brink as he ever has when he wanted to leave Elan in the bandits' clutches, but he pulled out of that and I think he's been improving ever since.

And if this is about the trashtalk he gave to Miko.... TOTALLY justified. If I was playing Roy, I'd have probably done the same thing but with more swearing and less funny. (Good thing I'm not.)

The comment to Hinjo? Frankly, he deserved it. I would have just out and out called the guy a dumbass. I mean, his heart was in the right place, but he essentially extended his hand out to a rabid dog. I wouldn't ask any Paladin in my game to be willfully stupid like that.

EDIT: I see this point was already covered before me. Oh well. And I find Roy's quips funny almost always. Guess there's no accounting for taste.

theKOT

2007-02-03, 01:26 AM

No, snark is funny when it's snarky. Roy's snark needs some natural enhancement.
So he can deliver the treasure type O?
I thought he already got that from the trip to the Oracle.
Phialis, when your sword just isn't enough without some starmetal!
I admit, I got carried away there. Fun though.

I'm not a big fan of commonplace snark in this kind of comic because it is hurtful in real life and you can't constantly have a character acting meanly towards others and explaining it every time as "just a joke".

Dausuul

2007-02-03, 01:32 AM

Hinjo didn't insult Roy but the Fighter Jockey goes to length to point out that he's not useless.

Actually, Hinjo kind of did--it wasn't intentional, but still: "Stay out of this, Roy. We need to talk this out, not batter it into submission."

It's by no means unjustified, and it's certainly nothing like the taunts Roy was throwing at Miko a few seconds earlier, but it is still a little insulting.

And once Miko attacks Hinjo--thereby justifying Roy's actions, AND forcing Roy to come to Hinjo's rescue--I can see why Roy would be inclined to make a sarcastic comment on the topic of battering things into submission. Since, y'know, if he hadn't battered Miko into submission, Hinjo would be as dead as his uncle.

Then there's his angry insults over Miko's sexuality like she was screwed up for not being attracted to him.

...or like she was screwed up, period. Anyway, she implied at one point that she was attracted to him. There are a lot of ways to interpret Roy's commentary on Miko's sex life.

Not to mention his dislike for Elan for making the party seem less than serious.

Um, I think Roy's dislike for Elan stems from things along the lines of "Bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the stupid ogre!"

And blowing up the gate for no reason, thereby causing the OotS trouble which is still going on.

And pestering Roy with questions like a five-year-old kid.

Don't get me wrong, I like Elan... but I like him more now that he's starting to grow up. And I don't have to put up with leading a party that's got him in it. If I did, I think I'd get pretty annoyed with him too.

Guy really needs to freaking relax.

Well, yes. No argument there.

War

2007-02-03, 01:37 AM

Awww, he's always been kind of a jerk. He's more of a nice guy than not, but sometimes the not part takes over. And sometimes it's necessary, since he's responsible for a bunch of people who are often idiots. Nobody's perfect.

Skippy the Dire

2007-02-03, 01:42 AM

In order -

Hinjo - that' sRoy's player being a wiseacre to the DM, especially since we've just gotten through a very nasty alignment patch with another PC who has just stormed out in a huff (Miko).

Miko - liberal use of the 'Goad' feat. Possibly ramped up to gratutious because Miko's player is Roy's player's ex-girlfriend (as in, they broke up last year but still kept it together while gaming until just recently. I've seen that one, and it ain't pretty)

Elan - inter-party conflict with Roy's player's younger brother, said player has shaped up when reminded about the nature of kid brothers. Roy (and his player) are very type A firstborn sons, and it shows.

And just for good measure -

Belkar - Roy's player's OTHER kid brother, with a bad case of middle kid symdrome and a worse case of anger sublimation through RPG killing. Has a job in the food industry or in Information Technology, depending on if he has started college yet. May idolize Francis X Ottoman. Frequently threatened with wedgies by the other players.

Jaysyn

2007-02-03, 01:46 AM

Let's not forget the wieght of the world is basically on Roy's shoulders & he's got to put up with this crap from a person (Miko) who should know better. I'd be pissed too.

agentx42

2007-02-03, 01:46 AM

Hinjo didn't insult Roy but the Fighter Jockey goes to length to point out that he's not useless.

Then there's his angry insults over Miko's sexuality like she was screwed up for not being attracted to him.

Not to mention his dislike for Elan for making the party seem less than serious.

Guy really needs to freaking relax.

Not everything is about him.

Hey, everyone's got flaws. Roy's big ones are being patriarchal and uptight. Anyone who calls his package a Trouser Titan without any sense of irony has some issue to work through. Anyway, if he were perfect he'd be a pretty boring character -- as wooden as that goofy club he had to lug around for a while.

And he's warming up to Elan, honest. I mean, who wouldn't? Guy has freakin' Banjo on his side, after all. That's mighty big mojo. :smallbiggrin:

Holy_Knight

2007-02-03, 01:49 AM

Clichedly, this facet of Roy's personality is due to daddy issues. His father never embraced his desires or ideas and met all of his arguments with snarky, hurtful sarcasm. I believe when Roy told off his dad in a... less than constructive manner... The Giant said that was the way Roy had learned to communicate growing up. This was compounded in college due to unpopularity and he has developed, as Julia put it, a martyr complex. So whenever something DOES go right, he needs to proclaim it to the world and grandstand it. I believe the treasure type O jokes are rooted in the fact that he was likely a virgin himself until very recently(assumed from origins) and he now feels superior to those who have not "got laid". Sex solves everything!

As to his dislike for Elan, I think it is/was partially jealousy due to the fact that Elan is so affable. Another possible cause is that he takes himself to seriously, and Elan's lighthearted manner causes him to feel as though he is "Not being taken seriously enough."

Roy has issues, and wouldn't be good under my(non D&D) definition, but he definitely does have a good set of values and base ideas.

Oh I forgot, he also needs to be snarky for humor's sake, but too me it is getting old. Snark isn't funny when it is so overused.

Very well said, KoT. The only thing I would add is that part of Roy's treatment of Elan probably comes from viewing him just like an annoying little brother--which would be fairly explanatory on its own, but is also compounded by the problems with familial affection you mentioned.

I'm not trying to make excuses for Roy. He is often unpleasant and unfair to his faithful, if eccentric and often annoying friends. I think it's pretty clear though, that that deep down he DOES understand his responsibility to them, and is willing to put it all on the line for any of his comrades (even Belkar). He came as close to the brink as he ever has when he wanted to leave Elan in the bandits' clutches, but he pulled out of that and I think he's been improving ever since.
You mean, when he did leave Elan in the bandits' clutches. He repented of it, yes, but make no mistake--he abandoned his comrade, and the one person who probably had the highest opinion of him pesonally of anyone he knows.

And if this is about the trashtalk he gave to Miko.... TOTALLY justified.
Not at all, I'd say. Not only was he completely crude about it, he basically became everything he despised about Miko at that point--fighting when he should have been diplomatic, and acting not entirely out of good motives, but because of personal vendetta.

The comment to Hinjo? Frankly, he deserved it. I would have just out and out called the guy a dumbass. I mean, his heart was in the right place, but he essentially extended his hand out to a rabid dog. I wouldn't ask any Paladin in my game to be willfully stupid like that.
Gotta disagree about this, too. As I see it, Hinjo was the only one out of three supposedly Lawful Good characters in the strip to actually live up to his alignment. Sure, it came back to bite him, but that doesn't mean he was acting unwisely.

Actually, Hinjo kind of did--it wasn't intentional, but still: "Stay out of this, Roy. We need to talk this out, not batter it into submission."

It's by no means unjustified, and it's certainly nothing like the taunts Roy was throwing at Miko a few seconds earlier, but it is still a little insulting.

And once Miko attacks Hinjo--thereby justifying Roy's actions, AND forcing Roy to come to Hinjo's rescue--I can see why Roy would be inclined to make a sarcastic comment on the topic of battering things into submission. Since, y'know, if he hadn't battered Miko into submission, Hinjo would be as dead as his uncle.

I don't see Hinjo's remark as an insult--and in any case, he was right. There was at least a chance before of Miko coming to grips with reality, but with Roy's "smite first, ask questions later" attitude (yep, went there) he made a bad situation even worse.

Demented

2007-02-03, 01:52 AM

So long as Elan isn't causing Roy any grief, the two would actually be best friends.

It just so happens that Elan manages to cause more grief to Roy than Belkar does. Just like a little brother ought to. It's an amazing thing to watch.

Spiky

2007-02-03, 01:58 AM

Clearly, you don't understand Roy's role, Charles. I'm guessing you are not the firstborn in your family, right? Roy is dead on what he should be. Rich is an excellent writer.

DarthMarasmus

2007-02-03, 02:04 AM

Let's not forget the wieght of the world is basically on Roy's shoulders & he's got to put up with this crap from a person (Miko) who should know better. I'd be pissed too.
You know that's right. I think Miko is the classic example of a lawful stupid zealot mixed with gullible conspiracy theorist. Sure, Shojo has done a few illegal things, but they are all for the greater good. I think Miko is being blinded by her self-righteousness and succumbing to pride, hence the fall because she refused to believe that she could be wrong and hear the full story before making her conclusion that Shojo was A) an evil old jerk or B) a gullible old fool who was being manipulated. She's forgotten that a paladin needs to think beyond the point of his/her sword and logically consider things before hacking everything apart.

Anyhow, back to Roy. He sort of reminds me of one of my old characters, both of them had to put up with a lot of crap from the rest of the party. Often, it is up to Roy to bail everyone else out of a scrape that a 5-year old should be able to avoid. It's understandable why he's a jerk sometimes, he has every right to be.

Learnedguy

2007-02-03, 02:05 AM

About Roy's relationship with Elan, it's pretty funny.

Roy treats Elans as a really annoying younger brother, Elan treats Roy has his elder brotehr who he want to have fun with, as seen here:http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html

Completly normal. Heck, they even got a really deep bond!

theKOT

2007-02-03, 02:13 AM

You know that's right. I think Miko is the classic example of a lawful stupid zealot mixed with gullible conspiracy theorist. Sure, Shojo has done a few illegal things, but they are all for the greater good. I think Miko is being blinded by her self-righteousness and succumbing to pride, hence the fall because she refused to believe that she could be wrong and hear the full story before making her conclusion that Shojo was A) an evil old jerk or B) a gullible old fool who was being manipulated. She's forgotten that a paladin needs to think beyond the point of his/her sword and logically consider things before hacking everything apart.

Anyhow, back to Roy. He sort of reminds me of one of my old characters, both of them had to put up with a lot of crap from the rest of the party. Often, it is up to Roy to bail everyone else out of a scrape that a 5-year old should be able to avoid. It's understandable why he's a jerk sometimes, he has every right to be.
She's not merely arrogant-she's insane.

That's an opinion. I would argue that she's getting worse, which is—in fact—development. Before, she was merely abrasive and rude, and maybe a little too devoted to duty. Now, she's bordering on a complete psychotic break.

In #120, she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding. Once she sees Durkon explains they are not evil, the bloodlust backs away. She doesn't like them, but she doesn't consider killing them and brings them back to trial. Belkar and the rest have now brought it back, and pushed it to the point of her wanting to kill Good and Neutral characters. She's been pushed beyond what had been a line she didn't cross.

For the record, by the way, Miko's final speech is not swearing revenge; it's more like promising that karma will come back and punish them, and hoping she gets to be there. As in, "I hope you all get found guilty of something and I get to be the one to execute you," not, "I'm going to kill you no matter what happens."

Charles Phipps

2007-02-03, 02:16 AM

Clearly, you don't understand Roy's role, Charles. I'm guessing you are not the firstborn in your family, right? Roy is dead on what he should be. Rich is an excellent writer.

What?

Sorry, I don't think "leave my kid brother to die" is high on my list of options.

I like Roy but he needs an attitude adjustment that the others expect to be his FRIENDS and not just his soldiers.

theKOT

2007-02-03, 02:27 AM

I like Roy but he needs an attitude adjustment that the others expect to be his FRIENDS and not just his soldiers.
Well he did tear up their contracts and offer them the chance to choose for themselves what they wanted to do. So I don't think that holds much water. In fact it holds none.

Charles Phipps

2007-02-03, 02:29 AM

Well he did tear up their contracts and offer them the chance to choose for themselves what they wanted to do. So I don't think that holds much water. In fact it holds none.

The very fact it required contracts to begin with proves me right yes.

I'm not saying Roy feels that way now. He's just a LOUSY friend.

spectheintro

2007-02-03, 02:35 AM

Not at all, I'd say. Not only was he completely crude about it, he basically became everything he despised about Miko at that point--fighting when he should have been diplomatic, and acting not entirely out of good motives, but because of personal vendetta.

Roy comes nowhere near Miko's level. I'm not going to beat a dead horse here, but he had plenty more reasons than personal ones to attack her immediately after her fall--his hatred of her just helped.

Gotta disagree about this, too. As I see it, Hinjo was the only one out of three supposedly Lawful Good characters in the strip to actually live up to his alignment. Sure, it came back to bite him, but that doesn't mean he was acting unwisely.

Alignment represents a world view, not a politeness scale. Nowhere in the description of Lawful Good does it mention "courteous" or "peace-loving to a fault." And the very fact that the situation turned out the way it did means that Hinjo was, in fact, acting unwisely--Miko almost killed him. Roy's plan of beating her into submission was the wise one, because that way no one ends up dead. Miko's life and her chance at possibly recanting are *not* worth more than anyone else's life, or even anyone else's well-being, for that matter. Hinjo was being Lawful Stupid; Roy knew better. (And Roy hated her, which helped.)

I don't see Hinjo's remark as an insult--and in any case, he was right. There was at least a chance before of Miko coming to grips with reality, but with Roy's "smite first, ask questions later" attitude (yep, went there) he made a bad situation even worse.

Miko isn't going to come to grips with reality, nor was she ever going to. Hinjo is an innocent and she tries to kill him. She has absolutely no reason to distrust him at all. I don't know how much more clearly the Giant can express her insanity before everyone who's defending her just stops. She's crazy. She's a fantastic foil, I'm glad she's in the strip, but she's crazy. She's always been an antagonist; she continues to be one. Just because people want her to be something different doesn't mean she ever will be.

Oh, and regarding Roy's ego, it's a comic strip. It's for comedic effect. And let's be honest: Roy just saved Hinjo's life, by doing exactly what Hinjo had (slightly) mocked him for earlier. I think he's quite entitled to the jab.

I've grown to like Roy more and more as the strip has progressed. He's become more human, and as a result I've become much more sympathetic of his situation. He really won me over after he told Shojo and Eugene off, and then went on to accept the quest anyway, and not obligate his friends to join him. Roy is a real hero--he's not always polite, he's not always considerate, and he's not even always very smart--but he has always come through in the end. People are so willing to forgive Miko for chopping Shojo in half, but Roy gets no love from anyone for taunting her. It's a sad state of affairs.

agentx42

2007-02-03, 02:39 AM

The very fact it required contracts to begin with proves me right yes.

Well, actually, the contracts the other OotSers signed were explained in "Origin of the PCs", where we find out that Roy literally hired them -- he was always an employer first and a friend after the fact. Durkon was the only one who'd had any experience adventuring with Roy (three years, I think), so those two had a genuine friendship by that point.

So... the contracts in question were strictly for employment purposes, specifically to travel into the Redmountain Hills. The fact he ripped up their contracts and yet they still decided to stay is a pretty good estimation of how the gang feel about Roy.

Sorry to burst yer bubble.

dan4ster

2007-02-03, 02:43 AM

I think he just needs to find some more treasure type O.
Dangit! I was going to say that! :P
Seriously, I think he's just really stressed out about Xykon and all. Guy needs a massage. And the Azure city is "oriental", so cheap massages wouldn't be hard to come by...

Demented

2007-02-03, 02:45 AM

Never underestimate the ability of the human mind to ignore all facts and reason in order to retain an opinion. It's something that, having seen arguments on many a forum, I've come to realize is not nearly so insane, uncommon, or illogical as it first sounds.

But frustrating? Oh yes.

She's not merely arrogant-she's insane.

Well, MORE insane at any rate. :smallbiggrin:

Realizing Shojo's deception: 1d3 Sanity damage

Killing Shojo: 1d4 Sanity damage

Losing Paladinhood: 1d10 Sanity damage

Being attacked by an indignant fighter,
who really should know his lowly place in the cosmic order: 2d10+2 Sanity damage

Getting to chop up a fellow Paladin because he refuses to acknowledge your birthright: Priceless.

vbushido

2007-02-03, 02:54 AM

The very fact it required contracts to begin with proves me right yes.

I'm not saying Roy feels that way now. He's just a LOUSY friend.

He originally had contracts because he was their employer. He hired them to accompany him on a quest, hence his reaction here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html). Friendship had nothing to do with the original group dynamic. When he finally tore the contracts up in Azure City, he stopped seeing them as just employees and starting considering them friends, allowing them to go their own way if they chose to do so.

-----
Producing a system from a specification is like walking on water--it's easier if it's frozen

agentx42

2007-02-03, 03:01 AM

He originally had contracts because he was their employer. He hired them to accompany him on a quest, hence his reaction here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html). Friendship had nothing to do with the original group dynamic. When he finally tore the contracts up in Azure City, he stopped seeing them as just employees and starting considering them friends, allowing them to go their own way if they chose to do so.

Ha! Beat you to it. You're right, though.

Piedmon_Sama

2007-02-03, 03:06 AM

You mean, when he did leave Elan in the bandits' clutches. He repented of it, yes, but make no mistake--he abandoned his comrade, and the one person who probably had the highest opinion of him pesonally of anyone he knows.

Yeah, and repented of it. So you agree with me.

Not at all, I'd say. Not only was he completely crude about it, he basically became everything he despised about Miko at that point--fighting when he should have been diplomatic, and acting not entirely out of good motives, but because of personal vendetta.

*Shrug* I found everything he said to be funny, appropriate, and very satisfying. Re: no accounting for taste.

If you think what he said was too raunchy, though, beware my gaming table. We don't use asterisks. =p

Gotta disagree about this, too. As I see it, Hinjo was the only one out of three supposedly Lawful Good characters in the strip to actually live up to his alignment. Sure, it came back to bite him, but that doesn't mean he was acting unwisely.

Um.... yeah, actually, that's exactly what it would mean. See, Hinjo's not just a Paladin anymore: he's now de facto ruler of Sapphire City. And very shortly, a large army of Hobgoblins led by a powerful Lich is going to come knocking on the city doors. Hinjo's life isn't his own to throw away anymore; someone is going to have to command Sapphire City's defenses. Can't do that if he's dead because he showed his back to a killer, can he?

I don't see Hinjo's actions as Lawful Good at all, btw. It was Neutral Good; Lawful Good would have considered the larger ramifications and allowed that Miko must be dealt with as efficiently as possible to help the greatest multitude. I'm not saying it wasn't an ignoble gesture; but it was irresponsible and naive, and suggests to me Hinjo might not yet prove ready to assume command.

BTW, ya'll seemed to read Miko's hesitation as a moment of earnest reflection. I read it as her luring Hinjo closer, showing him the butt of her sword so he would move into slashing range.

Darkuwa

2007-02-03, 03:09 AM

Anyone who calls his package a Trouser Titan without any sense of irony has some issue to work through.

I call mine Godzilla(God for short) does that mean I have issues?

Piedmon_Sama

2007-02-03, 03:16 AM

Nobody gets out of paying the Pied Piper....

agentx42

2007-02-03, 03:18 AM

Miko isn't going to come to grips with reality, nor was she ever going to. Hinjo is an innocent and she tries to kill him. She has absolutely no reason to distrust him at all. I don't know how much more clearly the Giant can express her insanity before everyone who's defending her just stops. She's crazy. She's a fantastic foil, I'm glad she's in the strip, but she's crazy. She's always been an antagonist; she continues to be one. Just because people want her to be something different doesn't mean she ever will be.

A lot of 'em are the same people who kept insisting Belkar was anything but Evil, until The Giant hisself came out and said so. Even now there's still some stragglers who believe what they want to believe...

Roy is a real hero--he's not always polite, he's not always considerate, and he's not even always very smart--but he has always come through in the end. People are so willing to forgive Miko for chopping Shojo in half, but Roy gets no love from anyone for taunting her. It's a sad state of affairs.

Hear, hear! Well said! And anyway, what's wrong with a little taunting? Witty repatee is always the icing on a terrific battle scene. Of course Roy may have been off, because I doubt any amount of Type "O" infusion was ever going to improve Miko's mood... (coughs innocently)

agentx42

2007-02-03, 03:19 AM

I call mine Godzilla(God for short) does that mean I have issues?

It means you're a force to be reckoned with and I bow to you, good sir.

Charles Phipps

2007-02-03, 03:19 AM

agentx42

2007-02-03, 03:33 AM

My objections aren't that Roy isn't a hero.

My objections are that he's an flumphole.

Note: as part of an experiment, all cursing on this forum by volunteer shall have naughty bits replaced by D&D monsters.

Agreed. But a heroic flumphole.

Flumphole. Flumphole. I like the sound of that. It sounds both goofy and a tad filthy. I'm going to start using with my friends and see if it catches on.

Flumphole.

Demented

2007-02-03, 03:36 AM

Knowing flumphs, I'd take that as a compliment.

Matrix Dragon

2007-02-03, 03:47 AM

See, I don't see Roy's actions in #408 as a sign of bad judgement on his part. Let's see.

1)Miko just murdered Shojo.
2)The Gods promptly clobbered her.
3)Miko has shown, on plenty of occasions before now, to make and hold onto opinions and 'facts' that 'justify' her using excessive violence and force on those she deems to be evil or working with evil (See point 1)
4)Miko is convinced that the Order of the Stick is alligned with Xykon, despite absolutely no evidence.
5)Hojo is kinda distracted by the corpse of a loving family member, leaving him and Belkar to handle however Miko is going to freak out.
6)Would YOU let Belkar try and handle this situation? :P
7)There is no way, based off Miko's delusions and misconceptions, that he is going to be able to talk her into calming down and turning herself over to authorities that she is convinced have been corrupted by the evil that is the Order of the Stick.

All this leads to one option for him. Put her on the ground, preferably out cold. And do it fast. Given that a Miko in a mindless rage is a Miko that leaves herself open to attack, plus the fact that it's a comic that requires wisecracks? Of course Roys gonna mouth off during it :P

chibibar

2007-02-03, 03:51 AM

Well, Roy do what he can. He is a fighter. of course there are time that is hard NOT to think the NPC as PC. Right now the only PCs are in the OoTS everyone else are either supporters, villians or facilitator (as I call it)

Supporters : these NPC help the PC in someway shape or form usually good stuff.

Facilitator: these NPC usually change the character in some way. in D&D usualy in a form of XP, but also sometimes can change by other means (aka Oracle)

Villians: these NPC challenge the PC and makes them stronger or break them down (which then later makes them stronger) but they are the opposing force of the PC hence we get a story :)

Charles Phipps

2007-02-03, 04:01 AM

Meh.

For all we know, Hinjo is Roy's player's brother's character.

He can't play often but enjoys occasionally showing up.

Charles Phipps

2007-02-03, 04:03 AM

Meh.

For all we know, Hinjo is Roy's player's brother's character.

He can't play often but enjoys occasionally showing up.

Pvednes

2007-02-03, 04:17 AM

Everything Roy has said and done in the last few strips has demonstrated remarkable restraint, under the circumstances.

Miko is a homicidal maniac.

Holy_Knight

2007-02-03, 04:50 AM

Roy comes nowhere near Miko's level. I'm not going to beat a dead horse here, but he had plenty more reasons than personal ones to attack her immediately after her fall--his hatred of her just helped.
He did not descend all the way to her level, no, but he was still exemplifying the qualities of hers that he supposedly denounces. While he may have had more than personal reasons, it's clear from the things he said that they were the most motivating to him.

Alignment represents a world view, not a politeness scale. Nowhere in the description of Lawful Good does it mention "courteous" or "peace-loving to a fault."
I didn't criticize him for being "uncourteous", I criticized him for being crude. He wasn't even insulting her for the things she deserved to be insulted about--he was just being a pig. All the things he supposedly learned from being a woman don't just apply to people you happen to like.

And the very fact that the situation turned out the way it did means that Hinjo was, in fact, acting unwisely
Not at all. First of all, how wise a decision is depends on what its aim is and what can be reasonably expected at the time--not simply on how things actually turn out. The best case scenario in the situation that they were in was for Miko to stop fighting, and Hinjo offered a plausible way for that to play out. The fact that it didn't work is a further mark against Miko, but doesn't change the fact that Hinjo did the right thing.

--Miko almost killed him. Roy's plan of beating her into submission was the wise one, because that way no one ends up dead. Miko's life and her chance at possibly recanting are *not* worth more than anyone else's life, or even anyone else's well-being, for that matter. Hinjo was being Lawful Stupid; Roy knew better. (And Roy hated her, which helped.)
That only became the right plan after conflict was shown to be unavoidable. It has nothing to do with Miko's life/redemption being worth more than anyone else's--Roy's intial attack circumvented the best chance there was for her to actually stand down.

Miko isn't going to come to grips with reality, nor was she ever going to.
Whiole it doesn't seem likely at this point, Roy didn't have sufficient reason to think that. Given that she had just fallen, there was a decent chance that she could be made to see the error of her ways.

Hinjo is an innocent and she tries to kill him. She has absolutely no reason to distrust him at all. I don't know how much more clearly the Giant can express her insanity before everyone who's defending her just stops. She's crazy. She's a fantastic foil, I'm glad she's in the strip, but she's crazy. She's always been an antagonist; she continues to be one. Just because people want her to be something different doesn't mean she ever will be.
You're conflating separate issues here. Criticizing Roy is not the same as defending Miko, nor does saying that other characters had a hand in her downward spiral imply that MIko is not to blame herself.

Oh, and regarding Roy's ego, it's a comic strip. It's for comedic effect.
Yeah, but that's irrelevant, because you could say this or the same sentence with "dramatic effect" for everything that happens in the whole story.

And let's be honest: Roy just saved Hinjo's life, by doing exactly what Hinjo had (slightly) mocked him for earlier. I think he's quite entitled to the jab.
Considering he should have intervened the second Miko attacked Hinjo, not 10 panels later when she had him practically killed, I'm not quite as impressed with him there as you seem to be.

I've grown to like Roy more and more as the strip has progressed. He's become more human, and as a result I've become much more sympathetic of his situation. He really won me over after he told Shojo and Eugene off, and then went on to accept the quest anyway, and not obligate his friends to join him. Roy is a real hero--he's not always polite, he's not always considerate, and he's not even always very smart--but he has always come through in the end.
I like Roy too, in general. That doesn't mean I think he can do no wrong.

People are so willing to forgive Miko for chopping Shojo in half, but Roy gets no love from anyone for taunting her. It's a sad state of affairs.
I don't forgive Miko for chopping Shojo in half, and Roy shouldn't get any praise for taunting her. Both the action itself and the way he went about it were bad. As much as people complain that people are too quick to defend Miko, that's clearly the case with Roy. Yeah, he's a good guy, but he's not the paragon of heroism that people make him out to be.

Yeah, and repented of it. So you agree with me.
Not quite. You said that he "came close to the brink". He didn't just come to the brink, he went over it. That's an important distinction. I agree that he repented.

*Shrug* I found everything he said to be funny, appropriate, and very satisfying. Re: no accounting for taste.

If you think what he said was too raunchy, though, beware my gaming table. We don't use asterisks. =p

I think you're misunderstanding me. I agree that it was funny, but not that it was appropriate. That wasn't the speech of someone heroically fighting for good, it was the speech of someone taking out his frustration on someone who rejected his advances and bested him in combat. Believe me, I wouldn't be worried about asterisks at your gaming table--that's compatible with thinking Roy failed to live up to his alleged moral superiority.

Um.... yeah, actually, that's exactly what it would mean.
Again, no it wouldn't. As I said, his decision has to be judged for its intent and expectation at the moment it was made, not on the grounds of how things happened to unfold.

I don't see Hinjo's actions as Lawful Good at all, btw. It was Neutral Good; Lawful Good would have considered the larger ramifications and allowed that Miko must be dealt with as efficiently as possible to help the greatest multitude. I'm not saying it wasn't an ignoble gesture; but it was irresponsible and naive, and suggests to me Hinjo might not yet prove ready to assume command.
This is based on the assumption that not taking Miko out immediately is necessarily injurious to the multitude, and at that point, Hinjo did not have good reason to think that. What he tried to do was quintessentially good--trying to redeem someone, rather than just punish them.

BTW, ya'll seemed to read Miko's hesitation as a moment of earnest reflection. I read it as her luring Hinjo closer, showing him the butt of her sword so he would move into slashing range.
Well, maybe, but given the apparent time lapse and the fact that Hinjo doesn't actually seem to move any closer in those panels, I think it really was hesitation.

Geaine

2007-02-03, 06:17 AM

Gonna have to agree with the OP. Roy is my least favorite character due to his attitude. There is having fun at your friends expense and then there is just being a jerk. Roy must have forgotten that the only time(s) he actually gets any accomplished is when the group acts as one. The last time he went solo ( back at the bandit camp) he got beat. Additionally, while he was sleeping the rest of the party managed to tie up all sorts of loose plot-lines without him. Roys' sense of self-importance is over inflated but with his issues with his dad it's easy to see where they come from.

The origin of Mikos' issues are easy to see too. She has been under tremendous stress since she was a little girl. Orphaned at an early age, recruited into the Sapphire Guard at an early age, her paladin oath probably has a chastity clause in it ( no Treasure Type O for pallys?) and being a female in a occupation that is almost 100% male dominated.

Hinjo, while he may have been defeated by Miko, did the right thing despite his personal feelings toward Miko and her actions where Roy used the event to get back at her plus try to demean her.

Miko and Roy are actually very similar.

Charles Phipps

2007-02-03, 06:21 AM

Everything Roy has said and done in the last few strips has demonstrated remarkable restraint, under the circumstances.

Miko is a homicidal maniac.

Now? Yes.

Before? No.

She was a member of their party.

vbushido

2007-02-03, 06:36 AM

Now? Yes.

Before? No.

She was a member of their party.

I don't recall her:
a) signing an adventuring contract to be a member of Order of the Stick
b) being accepted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) by Roy, the group's leader, or any of the other members as a member of the Order of the Stick

-----
Things improve with age. I'm approaching MAGNIFICENCE.

Adeptus

2007-02-03, 06:46 AM

Clichedly, this facet of Roy's personality is due to daddy issues. His father never embraced his desires or ideas and met all of his arguments with snarky, hurtful sarcasm.
<snip>

I agree. Roy has some issues about people thinking of him as "big dumb fighter", "meatshield" and so on. He's still trying to prove hid dead father wrong.

I still like him a lot. People are being very harsh on him for just some snide comments. The dude has been through a lot, and the whole world's fate pretty much rests on him. Saint's don't make interesting characters.

TreesOfDeath

2007-02-03, 07:16 AM

TC: Hes sick of sterotypes and is maybe a little egotistacal (all the order are somewhat dydfucntional, Durkon's emo which is better than the others, so he seems sane).
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html

Konrad

2007-02-03, 07:28 AM

Yeah Roy seems pretty egotistic to me, actually you'll notice that about all the OOTS quests are related to him and not his party(by that i mean, Xykon never did anything to any of the OOTS besides Roy before they entered that castle; then they went to get some starmetal for Roy, etc...)

Demented

2007-02-03, 07:38 AM

Not at all. First of all, how wise a decision is depends on what its aim is and what can be reasonably expected at the time--not simply on how things actually turn out. The best case scenario in the situation that they were in was for Miko to stop fighting, and Hinjo offered a plausible way for that to play out. The fact that it didn't work is a further mark against Miko, but doesn't change the fact that Hinjo did the right thing.

Assuming this true.... (emphasis mine)
I'm going to take the boldened statement and run with it.

The aim of Roy's decision is simple:
Subdue a person who kills people who are trying to save the world.

Myself, I don't see much wrong with that.
Of course, he didn't exactly leave it at that, but that's another argument.

The aim of Hinjo's decision isn't stated so succintly:
Convince a murderer to surrender peacefully.

I don't see much wrong with that either.
Though, given the situation, it seems rather naive.

Here's the rub. See, the aims are simple. It's "what can be reasonably expected" that everyone disagrees on, for explaining whether the characters were justified in their actions. You can go by the objective expectations, given all the evidence, or the subjective expectations, as understood seperately by Roy and Hinjo. (Subjective is much shorter and clearer, really.)

Text blocks that follow will be hidden in spoilers to contain post length.

Subjective perspectives:
Roy's perspective in simple terms: Miko is a murderous wildcard that must be contained. His "reasonable expectation" from all that he's experienced is that she's irredeemable. At least, she's irredeemable by him, and he wouldn't want to redeem her anyway.

Hinjo's perspective in simple terms: Miko is a fellow paladin who has merely taken Shojo's deception awfully hard. She needs sympathy, some quiet time, and a slight slap in her logic. Admittedly, he hasn't seen, or at least we haven't seen him having seen, her recent behaviour.

Objective perspective:
Well, if it's objective, it has to be reasoned out.
Wish me luck.

Start with her mindset. Miko just killed Shojo. For the first time in years, everything made sense; she thought she was destined to kill him. The way she's talking, she believes that her actions had a rational base, and it's the results that confuse her. It's possible that she could be brought to believe that her previous rationale is flawed... But she is more likely to believe that the flaw is in the results, since that conclusion has been set on by her mind.

She's not attacking, yet, but she DOES pick up her sword, showing some tendency to resort to violence.

Her logical faculties are in overdrive. That means that anything she does is going to happen very rapidly and suddenly, until she settles on an explanation. This can be good if you know she can be swayed to a peaceful resolution easily... If not, it's very, very bad.

So, what do we do? Do we know what she'll do in response?
Supposing that her mindset hasn't been completely destroyed and reassembled, we can look at previous examples when she has been confronted....

Examples, by Strip:

#200 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) "We aren't surrendering without a little..." My pet peeve, really. More importantly, "the lies of the wicked cannot be believed" shows a clear mental trait that shows up later on.

#201 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) We know she appreciates completely logical and rational explanations, with concrete and immediately available evidence, from a submissive source.

#250 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html) We know that she can be appeased by a submissive and respectful reaction, provided it is in line with her views, even if presented by someone she has previously been irritated by.

#251 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) Indignant and disrespectful actions, that aren't in line with her views, however, can be overreacted to, especially from people she may suddenly have new respect for. When irritated, she is very open to suggestions towards violent action.

#264 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html) Just as with #201, but we learn something else. The explanations don't have to be true.

#270 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html) I don't know if this proves anything, but it seemed worth pointing out that she can be convinced to carry out foolish actions, though she will still pursue her original goal.

#285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) Ooh, lots of confrontation. Due to an emotional attachment to her goal, she reacts violently to logical, though irreverent, opposition. But wait, there's more! She has a respect for authority, when provided with logical and rational explanation. She is the one who must be reverent, since it is lawfully required. However, there is notable resentment, again, due to the emotional attachment to her goal, and perhaps a creeping preference for her own reasoning over external evidence.

#371 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) The first jump to a conclusion! Well, not really. It's a logical connection, if you aren't aware that Liches have phylacteries. But ignoring that, pay attention to how she reacts to Xykon and Redcloak's speech.... She'll trust the literal words of what she perceives as Evil, but not the sentiment, which she completely ignores. Remember, "the lies of the wicked cannot be believed"?

#372 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html) She proves perfectly capable of ignoring a logical and well-argued viewpoint if it's posed by someone she percieves as Evil. She specifically dismisses it, really. Maybe, just maybe, it's his lack of evidence?

#374 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) Association with Evil is more than enough to deserve an immediate smiting. Actually, this hasn't changed since #200. And her tenacity for violent resolution hasn't changed since #270. However, her tact may have improved.

[url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html] Wala, we finally arrive. The resentment in #285 takes form. Her emotional attachment to her goal, now the destruction of the OOTS, has gotten the better of her. She doesn't listen to what anyone says, or dismisses them right off the bat in favor of her own conclusion. Perhaps because Hinjo doesn't have sufficient authority, Shojo is clearly a deciever, and Roy/Belkar are Evil. Really, nobody is in a position to convince her otherwise, while her mind is on a roll. Her emotional attachment to her goal is overwhelming her judgement, making her something of a freight train in causal momentum.

Quick summary:
Miko listens to rational and logical judgement, normally.
She obeys legitimate authority almost always.
She is more open to judgement that is respectful.
She despises judgement that is not respectful.
She reacts violently to judgement that is directly contradictory to her.
When she is emotionally attached to a goal, all bets are off.

Roy's chances at diplomacy:
Miko is emotionally attached to her beliefs. Since "the lies of the wicked cannot be believed", there is no way that she is listening to arguments from Roy unless... unless... he submits entirely to her point of view and apologizes, as in #250. But he's already done that once before, will she fall for it a second time? Even if she agrees and decides not to smite him, there's no likelihood that she would allow him to change her mind on the issue of whether she was right to kill Shojo. That doesn't mean he couldn't take advantage of her confusion through the submissive route, get close, and then disarm her, followed by a grapple check. However, it's an impossibly thin chance, and worse, Miko's monk levels would kick Roy's ass in a grapple.

Roy is better off doing what he does best, knocking her on her ass until she can't fight back anymore. It may not be the most kind and considerate course of action, but it's the only one with a reasonable success rate given his limited skillset and her opinion of him, not to mention his attitude as a "bad boy".

Hinjo's chances at success:
Miko sees herself as the authority over him. He can muster the levels of logic and rationale that he needs, but he walks a dangerous line trying to talk her down, because a quick misjudgement on her part could end up with him facing a 16-level warrior. At least a little bit, he managed to convince her that surrendering might be a good thing, so the possibility is there. But he could never do so by trying to convince her that she's wrong, only by going along with her delusion and adding in his own until she's cooperative. It's risky with a chance probably closer to 50% than 100%.

While this might seem more reasonable than Roy's situation, take another look: It's also the ONLY reasonable course of action Hinjo has available, since he can't fight her off. Failure means him being turned into human sushi, and he has almost no leverage as authority.

Objectively, judging an action by what can be reasonably expected to happen at the time, Roy and Hinjo gave it their best shots, more or less.

Roy's mistake was not watching out for that Stunning Kick. Hinjo's mistake was being forthright and not playing along with her beliefs.

Wait... did I just say that the characters couldn't have done better?
Damn it. I must've made a mistake somewhere along the line.

The Dirge

2007-02-03, 07:41 AM

Firevalkyrie

2007-02-03, 07:46 AM

Not everything is about him.
Actually, given that he's one of the two PCs in this scene, and he's the PC around whom the action is primarily centered, I would daresay that at least in this particular and limited context, everything IS about him.

Pvednes

2007-02-03, 07:58 AM

Now? Yes.

Before? No.

She was a member of their party.

Miko is not now, nor has ever been, a member of the OotS party.

Swashbuckler

2007-02-03, 08:29 AM

Clearly, you don't understand Roy's role, Charles. I'm guessing you are not the firstborn in your family, right? Roy is dead on what he should be. Rich is an excellent writer.

Amen, brother. All of this "Roy bashing" is pointless. He's a darned fine character written in a darned fine comic penned by a really darned fine writer.

LONG LIVE ROY ... with snarky comments galore! :biggrin:

SmartAlec

2007-02-03, 08:52 AM

Hinjo's chances at success:
Miko sees herself as the authority over him. He can muster the levels of logic and rationale that he needs, but he walks a dangerous line trying to talk her down, because a quick misjudgement on her part could end up with him facing a 16-level warrior. At least a little bit, he managed to convince her that surrendering might be a good thing, so the possibility is there. But he could never do so by trying to convince her that she's wrong, only by going along with her delusion and adding in his own until she's cooperative. It's risky with a chance probably closer to 50% than 100%.

While this might seem more reasonable than Roy's situation, take another look: It's also the ONLY reasonable course of action Hinjo has available, since he can't fight her off. Failure means him being turned into human sushi, and he has almost no leverage as authority.

She also sees herself as a 'better' Paladin than him.

"Hinjo! Stop fraternising with the prisoners!"

Dectilon

2007-02-03, 08:58 AM

Just because one character is wrong doesn't mean another can't be wrong too.

Mentally ill people aren't cured by 1-minute couceling sessions, and they aren't allowed to have swords! Hinjo came pretty close anyways, even after Roy made things worse. But hey, he'll pay for that later, he will : P

Adeptus

2007-02-03, 09:02 AM

Amen, brother. All of this "Roy bashing" is pointless. He's a darned fine character written in a darned fine comic penned by a really darned fine writer.

LONG LIVE ROY ... with snarky comments galore! :biggrin:

Hear hear! Our hero is a great character. Rather the sarcastic "bad boy" Roy, than a boring saint or some perfect "leader of men (and demihumans)"

Go Roy!

TBone

2007-02-03, 09:10 AM

To be a good leader one must generally not be a good friend. Often times leaders need to make decisions based upon what is necessary, not what they want, or what the people they lead want. I think Roy manages to detatch himself from things through sarcasm. He keeps things at a distance on purpose. He stands watch alone. He doesn't go drinking and partying with the rest of them. He does care about them, but someday he may have to order one of them to stand and die. Roy is smart, he knows this. And i think it irks him a little bit that he is probably the most intelligent fighter that has ever lived, and people assume he is just a big dumbass. Remember, when the Mind Flayer looked at them, V was a hamburger, and Roy was a whole Turkey. Id say he was probably rollin with an 18 INT and 18 WIS, Because we know V has at least an 18 INT.

Bilgore

2007-02-03, 09:14 AM

As much as Roy seems to take a perverse delight in tormenting Miko, he hasn't taken the proverbial low blow even though he's been given multiple opportunities.

In at least two panels since Miko's fall, we see her claim to be the greatest of the paladins...if Roy were particularly cruel, he would simply point out that she's not a paladin at all now.

I fully expect to see Belkar gloating about this, either to himself or perhaps where Roy can hear--at which point Roy would probably be (slightly) more sympathetic towards Miko.

That Lanky Bugger

2007-02-03, 09:34 AM

Lawful Good doesn't mean Roy has to treat everyone with universal respect and dignity. In fact, given what's at stake, Roy can be perfectly justified in being as snarky and sarcastic as he likes. Miko has repeatedly belittled Roy before, and she's constantly assumed she's a much better warrior... And while she was more capable when she had her powers, Roy has the handicap of wielding a large chunk of wood vs ancestral blade.

Miko doesn't get automatically soft treatment just because she's emotionally fragile. Nowhere in the description of Lawful Good does it say you have to be NICE to others.

Likewise, he has every right to feel a little put out by Hinjo's comments. That was by no means respectful or even called for. Hinjo's comments basically mean "Go away, big people talking". Roy is not obligated to take that, even from a Lawful Good Paladin. I'd make a snarky comment to the Paladin too, if I had to save his ass moments later.

Para-Quoth the SRD:

He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice.Fits Roy to a T.

Is he somewhat unjustified? Perhaps a little, but there's nothing in his alignment which prevents him from mocking Miko the way he does, because in the end he does tell the truth (generally), keep his word, and tries to see justice done. In fact, bringing Miko down IS justice.

Piedmon_Sama

2007-02-03, 12:45 PM

Not quite. You said that he "came close to the brink". He didn't just come to the brink, he went over it. That's an important distinction. I agree that he repented.

You seem to be mixing terms to me. 'Over the brink' implies he couldn't be redeemed, but you agree he did redeem himself.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I agree that it was funny, but not that it was appropriate. That wasn't the speech of someone heroically fighting for good, it was the speech of someone taking out his frustration on someone who rejected his advances and bested him in combat. Believe me, I wouldn't be worried about asterisks at your gaming table--that's compatible with thinking Roy failed to live up to his alleged moral superiority.

Oh, of course. I don't disagree that Roy has a lot of personal hatred towards Miko, and that was driving him as much as anything. But it doesn't make what he did less right, even if he did it for the wrong reasons. This is a case where his personal desires and the greater good coincided, and he took to it with gusto. Taking pleasure in killing (or trying to kill someone) is evil, but nobody is blameless and I don't expect Roy to be.

Again, no it wouldn't. As I said, his decision has to be judged for its intent and expectation at the moment it was made, not on the grounds of how things happened to unfold.

Really? So intent is all that matters? Now that I don't believe. Intent is only in your own head; your ACTIONS effect others. Roy was doing the right thing here, even if his motivations were only for revenge.

This is based on the assumption that not taking Miko out immediately is necessarily injurious to the multitude, and at that point, Hinjo did not have good reason to think that. What he tried to do was quintessentially good--trying to redeem someone, rather than just punish them.

How is it not dangerous? You've got a 16-17th level character here who is utterly irrational, armed and dangerous. I believe she would have torn through first Hinjo, and then any Sapphire Guardsmen who didn't immediately declare their support for her. Her rants make it pretty obvious she felt the whole government of Azure City was corrupt and had to be dismantled; she already killed her own leige lord, so we have to assume she would willingly kill anyone to achieve this goal.

Now, I'm not saying Miko could singlehandedly coup the throne even if she had escaped. But a high-level character, even an ex-Paladin, can do a LOT of damage. Particularly to your low-level NPCs, who will be needed on the frontlines very shortly.

So yes, Hinjo's actions were injurious to the wellfare of Azure City and her citizens. He went with the best action he, as a Paladin, could do, which was also the worst action he, as a Ruler, could do. This is why, IMNSHO, Paladins should never be given authority over so much as a city, much less a kingdom. A man cannot serve two masters, and in cases where his Code conflicts with the benefit for his people, he'll be rendered ineffective as a leader.

[/quote]Well, maybe, but given the apparent time lapse and the fact that Hinjo doesn't actually seem to move any closer in those panels, I think it really was hesitation.[/quote]

This is just a case of us reading into the action with what we already believed. See, most people assumed that when Miko goes into 'internal-dialogue mode' she's seriously considering her actions. I think she was just taking time to rationalize; she already had the conclusion in her mind (I'm right, everyone who opposes me must die) she just needed to thread the points together. Her behavior wasn't going to change, not even if they had let her stand there and ruminate for as long as she liked.

But you know what? There's no way to prove that, just as there's no way to prove she WASN'T seriously considering surrender. We know what she said, we don't know what she thought or felt, not really. I guess it just comes down to whether you still want to give Miko the benefit of the doubt.

Milandros

2007-02-03, 01:29 PM

Why haven't I seen loads of these "Roy is a big meanie" threads before?

He's been consistently snarky to Belkar. Why weren't there loads of "Roy is such a nasty man, he put Belkar down instead of explaining why his behaviour was unconstructive, and, ultimately, self-destructive?"

He's rude about Xycon (who, to be honest, he has far fewer reasons to personally dislike than Miko. Xycon has, in general, been politer and more decent to the OoTS).

He was sarcastic to the spiked-chain weilding half-ogre.

He was hardly a paragon of polite, gentle behaviour to the Linear Guild.

Heck, he was somwhat snippy even to the "blacksmith" who sent him off for starmetal and the blacksmith who reforged his sword.

On the other hand, nasty comments about Miko, and suddenly Roy isn't good-aligned, he's a poor leader, he's making bad judgements... actually, he's made nasty comments about Miko before. Ah, but he made nasty comments about Miko that involved sex! Oooh, how terrible.

He's Roy. A certain sarcasm is how he is. Of course, he'd be far more saintly if when he fought he only said things like "Ogre, listen, please - this aggression doesn't help our situation. Come now, let us put down our blades and discuss this, as two sentients should, and see if we can come to a common agreement that doesn't involve violence. I'm sure that if you just sit and listen, you'll agree that plundering from the weak and killing innocents is wrong." I'm not sure he would be either more effective or interesting as a main character - nor that it would be as funny.

And I still suspect that if Miko had been a physically unattractive male character with exactly the same dialog, or turned out to be an effeminate looking man, she'd have a lot fewer apologists.

Axl_Rose

2007-02-03, 01:30 PM

Yeah. Upon reading the old strips, it seems he's way too rough on Elan. Scratch that - he's way too mean to Elan.

chibibar

2007-02-03, 02:02 PM

Sesquedoodle

2007-02-03, 02:03 PM

chibibar

2007-02-03, 02:05 PM

true, but at least Roy actually let it out instead of letting it built inside him. He does vent and go on with his life. unlike some people we know *miko cough cough*

Megalomaniac2

2007-02-03, 02:05 PM

chibibar

2007-02-03, 02:08 PM

It's one of his character flaws, all right. At some basic metaphysical level Roy is kinda aware that he's the main character, and therefore thinks that everything's about him. It's been a running theme for a while now; as Haley pointed out, every quest the Order goes on benefits Roy, and during the Battle of Cliffport he was so preoccupied with interrogating Leeky (and, according to Haley's Crypto-speak, listening to himself talk) that he didn't even see Nale. So yeah, one of the things that makes Roy Roy.

Interesting point. You know, come to think of it, in many gaming sessions I have played, when we are the players, most of the stuff DOES revolve around us per se. Since we are the players, and Roy of course breaking many 4th wall a lot realize this and kinda go with it. Of course as Players, we can get away with stuff most of the time than NPC etc etc... because the GM wants to play again another day and don't wanna piss the players off too bad.

Of course there gotta be limits and hence the birth of....... dun dun dun... Railroad plot!

prufock

2007-02-03, 02:24 PM

I like this side of Roy. With all the crap he puts up with on a daily basis, I'm surprised he doesn't go off like this more often.

rosebud

2007-02-03, 02:52 PM

The comment to Hinjo? Frankly, he deserved it. I would have just out and out called the guy a dumbass. I mean, his heart was in the right place, but he essentially extended his hand out to a rabid dog.As you stated about Roy, Hinjo had to do that for the same reason. Miko was one of his, and, especially as a paladin, he had to make that attempt. Only when the attempt was completely failing did Roy intervene. (And clearly, at that point, talking had ceased.)

In that respect, both Hinjo and Roy satisfied what was demanded of them and honor. (And, by the way, Roy never broke the oath he never made. Because he never actually got to the other gates. And he did keep the family oath he did make.)

You can notice, by the way, that even Hinjo was not a model of complete restraint. Once he was attacked, his comments became rather snarky. Hinjo is at the point Roy was about 200 strips ago. :smallsmile:

Hinjo's not just a Paladin anymore: he's now de facto ruler of Sapphire City. And very shortly, a large army of Hobgoblins led by a powerful Lich is going to come knocking on the city doors. (...) I don't see Hinjo's actions as Lawful Good at all, btw.Given the recentness of that status change, I'd cut Hinjo some slack. As you said, he paid for it. As for Lawful versus Nuetral, I'd still disagree, though. Lawful does not require it be the best action or most intelligent action. What he did was lawful, but, in retrospect, foolish. The "in retrospect" part is critical. Had she stood down, his actions would have been the most efficient and the best for the Sapphire Guard. Also, keep in mind that she was his companion on entering the room and his superior in the order. Only with his uncle's death did that role reverse, and, again, I don't think the change in status has sunk in. That he was able to react in time at all shows how amazing Hinjo is. And he gave Roy enough time to recover, so he was also quite helpful.

The only point where he stopped "doing his greater duty" was after she attacked him and he let his honor by permitting the duel to continue to overshadow his concern that she be subdued.

In reality, this was all done for the Plot anyhow. If Shojo really was paranoid, the room would have been swarming with guards already.

Piedmon_Sama

2007-02-03, 03:26 PM

As you stated about Roy, Hinjo had to do that for the same reason. Miko was one of his, and, especially as a paladin, he had to make that attempt. Only when the attempt was completely failing did Roy intervene. (And clearly, at that point, talking had ceased.)

In that respect, both Hinjo and Roy satisfied what was demanded of them and honor. (And, by the way, Roy never broke the oath he never made. Because he never actually got to the other gates. And he did keep the family oath he did make.)

Roy let Hinjo get a little bit more of Miko than he could handle. Maybe it was because he was giving Miko a chance, but I'm inclined to think it was a bit of payback for Hinjo's offhanded "stay out of this" remark. What's a few HP between friends? :smallamused:

You can notice, by the way, that even Hinjo was not a model of complete restraint. Once he was attacked, his comments became rather snarky. Hinjo is at the point Roy was about 200 strips ago. :smallsmile:

Hinjo's clearly inherited at least a FEW things from his uncle. =p

Given the recentness of that status change, I'd cut Hinjo some slack. As you said, he paid for it. As for Lawful versus Nuetral, I'd still disagree, though. Lawful does not require it be the best action or most intelligent action. What he did was lawful, but, in retrospect, foolish. The "in retrospect" part is critical. Had she stood down, his actions would have been the most efficient and the best for the Sapphire Guard. Also, keep in mind that she was his companion on entering the room and his superior in the order. Only with his uncle's death did that role reverse, and, again, I don't think the change in status has sunk in. That he was able to react in time at all shows how amazing Hinjo is. And he gave Roy enough time to recover, so he was also quite helpful.

You're right on the first point; I was going overboard when I say it suggests he isn't fit to lead. (I still think a Paladin can't be a good ruler of a large society, though. A small band of sheepherders, sure, but a metropolis/nation? No way.)

As for his alignment, I still don't think so. It would have been lawful behavior if he had been required by code or tradition to offer peace to Miko. As the ruler of Azure City, and a nephew who had just lost his uncle, he had no such obligation. That makes his mercy an act of pure good, IMO.

I'm not saying lawful alignment requires "the best action." Shojo's behavior was very chaotic, but definitely what the situation required.

The only point where he stopped "doing his greater duty" was after she attacked him and he let his honor by permitting the duel to continue to overshadow his concern that she be subdued.

Well, he certainly wasn't doing it there, but I also think he was being irresponsible by offering mercy to Miko. She was clearly unstable, and therefore even if she seemed to waver, it was in no way worth the risk to approach her equitably.

EvilElitest

2007-02-03, 04:13 PM

The idea of this thread is rather redundent.
Rant
OK look at it this way. Yes Roy is sarcastic, yes he is insutling and yes he does have a big ego. Now what is wrong with that. I know that some people are going to going "oh god how morally wronge" but look at this logiclly. Of all the characters in the story, the sarcastic ones tend to be the smartest ones. Roy is sarcastic to belkar, Elan, Xycon, his Dad, Miko and Nale because he is pointing out their flaws and insulting any stuipie ideas they made. Likewise, Shojo, Roy's dad, Belkar and Julia insult him the same way. Or how Redcloak insults Xycon and Xycon insults MID. However, almost right about their insults. Hell if you look at amount of foolish that Roy puts up with, then why would he not be egotistic. Note he is perfecly polite to those he respects, like V, Durkon, Haley, and Celia. the only time i think that he is complety rude without good reason is when he gets pissed at Shojo, but that seems to be more frustration. He is logical. I think most people think he is mean because he attack Miko and from there everyone tries to mayter her. Think about it, as a miltary commander why not attack Miko with so little to gain. But that is for a different strip. The point is that Roy is justified in his actions, and while rude he is a perfecly good miltary commander and a good person. I want to point out that when he is rude to Elan, well think about, its ELAN. Until very recently he has be almost usless. It is worst that he is devoted to Roy, because he is very annoying. I think most people are under the impression that being egotistic makes someone not a good person. Unlike Hinjo, Roy is a realist, and more cynical. When he commeted on what Hinjo said, that is perfecly logic way of critizing Hinjo's actions and comment on him having to save the day. Because face it, Hinjo did make him look like a dumb fighter.

"Not at all, I'd say. Not only was he completely crude about it, he basically became everything he despised about Miko at that point--fighting when he should have been diplomatic, and acting not entirely out of good motives, but because of personal vendetta."
How is killing a murder becoming like Miko. In most D&D worlds, killing murders is perfecly acceptable, and this socialty seems to agree. Killing Miko because Roy though she COULD HAVE killed Shojo would be stooping down to her level. And how is insulting her wronge. She screw up, she murdered, she attacked, not Roy. And so what do you expect him to do, be polite about attacking her. He is pissed and rightfully so. Unless you condone what she did as morrally correct, then their is no way he did any wrong, apart from being rude, which is perfeclly morally aceptable. As for being a good character, his sarcastic insults are funny. I mean look at complains from Goblins (very good comic). He is even more rude, and is still my favorate character.

Grasilich

2007-02-03, 04:48 PM

What's with all this psychoanalysis?

"In my medical opinion, the Order of the Stick suffers from an acute case of..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html)

Talk about over-analysis.

Wyborn

2007-02-03, 05:07 PM

Wait, now people are saying Hinjo was in the wrong? I've spent like two or three days arguing in Roy's avor and now people are going after Hinjo?

I mean, yeah, he proved Shojo's point about him needing to grow up, but he did the best he could according to his alignment and his duty to Miko, both as a fellow (ex-)paladin and as her new liege lord. Naive, sure, but still Lawful Good.

TinSoldier

2007-02-03, 07:50 PM

Para-Quoth the SRD:

He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice.
Fits Roy to a T.If you can point out where he has lived up to those ideals that would be great, because I know I can find comics where he has not.

the_tick_rules

2007-02-03, 08:15 PM

well people do rip on fighters a lot, like i dunno ummm US.

EvilElitest

2007-02-03, 08:43 PM

Hinjo actions, while foolish from a miltary and leadership stand point, made perfect sense from a palidin standpoint (which Roy does not have). I don't see how his actions did not make sense with his character and i don't see how he could be critizied for it. He may not like Miko, but unlike Roy, he can has a palidin view point. Roy was not wrong in attacking Miko, and Hinjo was not wrong in talking. Hinjo's a palidin, redeption is what he does. When Miko attacked him, he defended himself. The only really foolish thing he did was not allow Roy to help until the last second, but he still did a morally correct action based on his background.

Jawajoey

2007-02-03, 08:49 PM

Roy's a great character, and a good friend. Yes, he started as an employer, but he is a good leader and the team became an eccentric, yet comradely group. That's why he decides to tear them up. Of course he had contracts at the beginning, they didn't know eachother, but when they became a real team, he chose to make it more than a cooperation. He knows his loyalties.

Sure, he does have his flaws, and he doesn't always realize it. But he's a good person, and is fair enough to see when he is wrong.
He acknowledges and apologizes for his ego specifically. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html)
He acknowledges his rudeness, apologizes, and still recognizes his true loyalties. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)
He acknowledges and apologizes for a mistake that he made. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html) But as he says, "don't push it."

He can see when he is at fault. When he goes to help Elan in the forest, that is a great example. I think that is a real turning point where Roy really comes to understand his relationship with Elan. Elan is annoying, no arguments there, but he's a loyal friend and party member. Roy realized that no matter how much he hates the things Elan does, he can't hate Elan.

Throughout much of the story, he is somewhat arrogant, after all, he is their leader. But he realizes that all that "do what Roy wants to do" stuff came from his dad doing the exact same thing to him, and Roy made the choice to not take that path.

Roy has flaws. Who could like him if he didn't? But he is completely unlike Miko in that A) his flaws aren't psychotic, delusional, wrathful, and violent; and B) He recognizes and apologizes for them at the first presentation of reason.

As for snarkiness, if you don't think it's funny anymore, that's your problem. Being a smart ass doesn't make you an *******, but it can make you a funnier person. And in my opinion, it's still plenty funny. Plus, it's a humorous comic. If you can't handle a little sarcasm, go read something ****ty like Peanuts.

TinSoldier

2007-02-03, 09:42 PM

I just think his snarkiness could have been used better on a different train of comments. I'm all down with the sarcasm. Roy's comments were just lame, though. Miko wasn't even listening to them.

WRT #250 linked above, you really think he was apologizing there? Hell no! He was setting her up.

Arbitrarity

2007-02-03, 09:54 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html
He wants to help the poor people, refers to jumping through hoops to get people to go on missions.

And definately
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html

Tarvok

2007-02-03, 09:57 PM

As for his alignment, I still don't think so. It would have been lawful behavior if he had been required by code or tradition to offer peace to Miko. As the ruler of Azure City, and a nephew who had just lost his uncle, he had no such obligation. That makes his mercy an act of pure good, IMO.

Actually, I'd call the attempt to arrest her (as opposed to attacking her outright) an act of pure law, as well; his method bumped it up from simply lawful to outright lawful good. Remember, Paladins are more than just warriors; they are also specifically agents of good, which means redemption is always preferable to simply defeating your enemies. Miko was virtually an adopted sister to him (his father raised her himself, I believe). As Roy said earlier when defending Belkar from Miko, loyalty amounts to something.

Hinjo took a risk when he attempted to talk her down, but are not all heroic actions inherently risky? There was no guarantee that he would not be successful. Heck, in the panel before Miko attacked him, I actually thought she might listen to him. Heck, she was listening... see the look on her face? He WAS getting through, though she made the decision to close her ears and continue to defend her belief in her infallible rightness. Hinjo took a risk, and it was a worthwhile one. Had he succeeded, not only would he have avoided further bloodshed, but, once redeemed, Miko would have made a powerful, and much more loyal and stable ally.

As a paladin AND a ruler, he's going to need all the allies he can get. It's a pretty fair bet that, unless he willingly drops his paladinhood (while maintaining a facade of paladinhood), he's going to be to the city's politics like a guy who can't swim in shark infested waters. The shield of law can protect you against the lawful, and the sword of truth can defeat the evil... but it requires considerably more "pragmatic" strategies to deal with the chaotic, as a ruler must do. This is why rulership and paladinhood are generally not compatible (though a paladin CAN make a powerful ally to a ruler).

Roy, for his part, did not deviate from his alignment, either. He'd likely step up for his own sister as quickly as Hinjo, but Miko is NOT his sister, and she did demonstrate her nature fairly clearly. I give Hinjo props for taking the risk he did; it was a heroic risk. However, it was not a risk for Roy to take; Roy's loyalties are not the same as Hinjo's. Roy trying to talk it out would be stupid; there is NO WAY she'd listen to him, nor any way either he or Hinjo could imagine it to be so. He had neither the relationship nor the toolkit to deal with the situation any other way.

As to Roy's verbal paralell to physical combat with Miko, that's hardly anything new, for him. I think the main problem people have with it this time is that he suggested that she was undersexed, and that this was a problem. Obviously, he learned his hostile sarcasm from his dad, and this is his own achilles heel, where his alignment is concerned, just as Miko's dedication to her own rightness is hers. However, wheras Miko has been tested today and found wanting, Roy faced his test during the bandit camp story, and showed his true nature that day.

I'm not sure this post is entirely coherent, or nonrepetitive, but that's my 2 cents.

TinSoldier

2007-02-03, 10:30 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html
He wants to help the poor people, refers to jumping through hoops to get people to go on missions.I think that was due to the Trouser Titan, but even if Roy would have done this on his own (doubtful) the mission was still initiated by Miko. So at this point, at least, she is at least as good as he is.

And definately
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.htmlNeutrals and Evils have an interest in saving the world too. However, saving the world is a Good act regardless so I will give that one to you (someone else mentioned it before).

The two I've really got are:
1) Saving his sister from Nale. That might be good, but he is also obligated so also lawful. It can be argued whether it is more good or more lawful. Would he have rescued Julia if she was just some random kid off of the street?

2) Saving the world (which he hasn't actually done yet) would be a good act if he actually completes it.

Any other good acts? Or lawful acts?

Jawajoey

2007-02-03, 11:25 PM

WRT #250 linked above, you really think he was apologizing there? Hell no! He was setting her up.

Just because the apology was a prelude to stating his other feelings doesn't mean it was merely a set up.

Everything he said was true. Why would he lie about coming to a realization about rude sexuality after being turned into a woman? Why wouldn't he be sorry for being so rude? He was sorry for that, but also sorry that he ever wanted to "bone" her in the first place. He gave her what she deserved, an apology, and insult, and an honest statement of opinion.

Spiky

2007-02-03, 11:44 PM

What?

Sorry, I don't think "leave my kid brother to die" is high on my list of options.

I like Roy but he needs an attitude adjustment that the others expect to be his FRIENDS and not just his soldiers.
It's quite simple. Yes, Roy is snarky, or whatever your current descriptive word is. And I say.....So what? You gonna quit reading because of it? Cry yourself to sleep tonight?

My point is, Roy is written perfectly for his position as leader/employer/big brother. If you don't understand why, I resubmit that you are not the oldest in your family and do not understand the oldest in general and Roy in this comic. That's not a slam, it's a fact of the order of birth and resultant personality traits that everyone shares. I don't understand only-children, they're frickin' nuts. (I'm one of 4) From your posts, I guess you are a middle child. Am I right?

Anyway, many people in this thread are attempting to explain, in various ways, why Roy is who he is. If you can't accept him, I don't know what you should do. Write the author? Read something else? Give up?

TinSoldier

2007-02-03, 11:47 PM

I'm the oldest in my family, and I still think that Roy is an ass.

Arbitrarity

2007-02-03, 11:48 PM

Yeah, he probably wouldn't save some random person :).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0283.html, nice to Elan?

Worst example I can think of, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html he actually apologizes, in a nice manner, but then we get to the... other part, so no good :)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html worries about Elan (possibly counteracting his abandonment).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0204.html Hmm, unclear motives....

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html he discusses his own motives (though opinions of motives don't matter; see recent comics)

That Lanky Bugger

2007-02-04, 12:13 AM

If you can point out where he has lived up to those ideals that would be great, because I know I can find comics where he has not.

I'm not going to bother to go through and dig up actual comic numbers, but just from the top of my head?

He's generally truthful. Does he lie? Yeah, of course. However, he doesn't do so constantly.
Keeping his word typically goes hand in hand with the honesty bit, but can YOU point to a specific comic where he breaks his word in a way which is direct and purposeful? I can't recall anything.
Helping those in need? This one Roy does quite frequently. Roy was the first one to want to help the dirt farmers. Despite the manipulations by his father and Shojo, he offered to help stop Xykon from reaching the gates because "it's the right thing to do".
Speaking out against injustice? He hasn't had many opportunities, but he generally does when presented with the option.Overall, Roy's one of the good ones. Is he perfect? No. Is he a pretty big jerk sometimes? Yep.

However, being a jerk and being Lawful Good aren't incompatible.

TinSoldier

2007-02-04, 12:22 AM

I'm not going to bother to go through and dig up actual comic numbers, but just from the top of my head?

He's generally truthful. Does he lie? Yeah, of course. However, he doesn't do so constantly.Sure. Most neutrals are the same way.

Keeping his word typically goes hand in hand with the honesty bit, but can YOU point to a specific comic where he breaks his word in a way which is direct and purposeful? I can't recall anything.No. I can't point to a specific comic where he gives his word for anything. Maybe he avoids doing that so he won't feel obligated to keep it.

Helping those in need? This one Roy does quite frequently. Roy was the first one to want to help the dirt farmers.Yeah, but wasn't it Miko's idea first? And might this decision be made by the Trouser Titan?

Despite the manipulations by his father and Shojo, he offered to help stop Xykon from reaching the gates because "it's the right thing to do".Yeah, and I've already accepted that one. Pretty much.

However, being a jerk and being Lawful Good aren't incompatible.Oh, I know. I'm just pointing it out. Prior to #406 some of these same arguments could be made in favor of Miko.

I'm really not trying to pick on Roy here. He used to be my favorite character. I would just like to see more unequivocably lawful and good behavior from him, or else why have the alignment at all?

Demented

2007-02-04, 02:24 AM

Mainly my ideas of Roy's goodness come from his soliloquy after having left Elan behind. He practically rattles off a Lawful Good agenda, and he hasn't failed it since.

His quest for Xykon is initially lawful and, after a certain discussion with dear old dad in Azure City, good as well.

For some bizarre and hitherto unexplained (at least not online) reason, he's keeping Belkar around. Why? Neutral wouldn't have the determination to keep Belkar. Evil, and most Good, would kill the sucker or leave him in a prison where he belongs.

As much as Roy is attached to his Trouser Titan, when Elan is poisoned, his priorities change instantaneously to getting Elan to safety, regardless the wound to his pride.

It probably wasn't necessary to confront the assassins at the inn. They were leaving anyway. Neutral would let them go. For that matter, he told Durkon to get the innocents out of the inn. Admittedly, all of this is in an altered state of mind... his being a woman, afterall. :smallamused:

He just refuses to kill prisoners. Even when they're recurring characters whom you just know will be causing further trouble. I'm doubtful that's a good trait, but Lawful seems to fit.

Personally, I'd say he's neutral good, because of his tendency to manipulate his teammates into working. That and his impulsive nature. The rest is Lawful Good. (Though, I suppose if one wanted to, they could make a running total...)

Sesquedoodle

2007-02-04, 05:53 AM

I think he's Lawful Good, although I'm not going to go through the reasons why, since other people have already posted them. I DO think his sarcasm can get a bit much, and he can be a little too mean to people sometimes. But I don't think that Lawful Good requires people to be nice all the time, and in fact a character who is LG but can be kind of a jerk is probably more interesting than one who is a shining paragon of goodness.

Levant

2007-02-04, 06:12 AM

wellington

2007-02-04, 06:19 AM

Did he hit Miko with the flat of his blade in that last strip? I think so.

In any case, Roy's arrogance and occasional outright nastiness in no way alter the basic fact that he's generally a good person, willing to stick his neck out for others. I think the lack of "ROY IS SO MEAN" threads previously is that before, he never mocked anybody when they were on the cusp of an immensely important personal decision; until now, his character flaw didn't have severe, real consequences.

Ultimately, he can't be held responsible for Miko's actions, but he may end up feeling a bit guilty about the first attack when the adrenaline rush is over.

ColourDeaf

2007-02-04, 07:32 AM

Perhaps his insults were a tactic? Miko tends to have problems with crude comments and insults to her, so he's trying to provoke a better natural fighter (read: Higher BaB) into making a mistake where his greater tactical experience (Read: More Feats) can come into the calculation.

...or maybe he's just being 'mean' to a nutcase who's insulted him, called him Evil, imprisoned him and tried to kill him and his comrades.

As for being mean to Elam, I can understand that - there are some people who, through no fault of their own, just rub me the wrong way an exceptional amount. They're nice people, but we have incredibly different and incompatible personalities.

I can't, however, forgive him for calling his tool the 'Trouser Titan'.

... 'Codpiece Colossus' or 'Briefs Behemoth' is infinitely superior :P

Azukar

2007-02-04, 07:52 AM

Don't forget: he's a PC; the world DOES revolve around him! We've seen this fact many-a-time before.

Iranon

2007-02-04, 08:53 AM

If I had to piont out my 3 least favourite people in the comic... well, they all have Greenhilt as a surname. They seem to mistake natural rudeness for wit, firmly believe themselves to be the center of the universe and don't provide nearly enough to back up their arrogance.

Julia doesn't lose her snark the minute she's in a position of weakness unlike Roy and Dad who strike me as major cowards (in non-combat situations) in addition to their other unpleasant traits, so I put her a fraction above the other two.

Maybe it's a family thing... you pass on what you got yourself? All of them are old enough to know better though.

That Lanky Bugger

2007-02-04, 09:31 AM

Sure. Most neutrals are the same way.

No. I can't point to a specific comic where he gives his word for anything. Maybe he avoids doing that so he won't feel obligated to keep it.

Perhaps this is true, but we'd have to hand it over to the more knowledgable ones.

Yeah, but wasn't it Miko's idea first? And might this decision be made by the Trouser Titan?

Nope, that was all Roy. I remember this pretty clearly. The woman runs screaming up to the OotS about saving her husband, and his first reaction is "Yes, a plot hook!" He then amends that for Miko with "I mean, an innoncent person in need of assistance" or some such. In this case, I'm willing to acknowledge Roy's initial outburst as creative license by Rich.

I'm really not trying to pick on Roy here. He used to be my favorite character. I would just like to see more unequivocably lawful and good behavior from him, or else why have the alignment at all?

I think he is pretty much lawful and good. He does mess up occasionally, but everyone does. Prior to 406, Miko was unequivocably Lawful and Good. Roy is probably skirting the edge closer to Neutral Good right about now, as he seems to be breaking his personal moral code more frequently as it advances the cause of good.

Mr Teufel

2007-02-04, 10:04 AM

Nope, that was all Roy. I remember this pretty clearly. The woman runs screaming up to the OotS about saving her husband, and his first reaction is "Yes, a plot hook!" He then amends that for Miko with "I mean, an innoncent person in need of assistance" or some such. In this case, I'm willing to acknowledge Roy's initial outburst as creative license by Rich.

Quoted For Truth. #211 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html) Roy wanted to help first.

theKOT

2007-02-04, 11:36 AM

Not true, everything you said is ALSO true. Roy's relationship with his father is complicated, and Roy doesn't always admit his motivations for things he does or says.

Think about what it would be like to grow up with Eugene Greenhilt as your actual father. You would learn pretty quickly that any display of genuine emotion or caring was apt to be stepped on with a sarcastic insult. You might also learn that the only way to get someone to pay attention to you is with harsh language. An explanation for Roy's sarcastic, hurtful quips. He does it to get attention, and because he has trouble displaying actual affection.

DeathQuaker

2007-02-04, 01:00 PM

During the trial part of the strip, it was as if we couldn't get past two pages without Roy going into some sort of tirade. Which, of course, I agree that he was justified in doing--there were a lot of not so nice things happening to him at the time, none of which were fair or his fault.

But it wasn't funny.

Before then, Roy's anger and sarcasm had been a joke in the comic. At that point, it became serious, and almost too much for me to handle reading.

I can understand why Roy gets so angry, and I don't blame him for it, and I'm not trying to criticise Rich for including it in the comic. But I can see why some people here dislike it. So much anger is unhealthy both to have and to be around.

Poster speaks my mind.

I understand why, for the most part, Roy gets so antagonistic--and also has that "martyr-complex" Julia accuses him of.

I still, personally, find it frustrating at times.

Frex, his resentment at being arrested by Azure City and the trial and everything was understandable. But he carried the chip on his shoulder about it way too long. Shojo apologized, explained everything to him, and Roy continued to behave like a complete bitch around him because he couldn't get over any of it. He was still being overly snarky to him the strip before Shojo died. Yes, again, he had a right to feel used and manipulated--he was. But after Shojo doing a great deal to get the party favors and being made aware of the "greater good" situation, Roy would have served himself and the party better by focusing on the situation at hand and getting more information, etc. There was no useful reason to continue to be bitchy about it--he wasn't going to get anything more out of it; he'd already gotten any apology he was going to get. So why whine and moan? (That's a rhetorical question.)

Even worse has been his rudeness to Hinjo, which has been completely unfounded. Hinjo has had no responsibility or ANYTHING to do with the capture-and-trial situation, but Roy's been nothing but nasty to him simply by Hinjo's association with the Sapphire Guard. And mildly derisive comments in the most recent strip aside, Hinjo has been nothing but nice to him, IIRC (I haven't re-read older strips in awhile so I admit I could be wrong, but that's as I remember it).

Again, understandable, given the hell Roy's been through. But senseless, purposeless--and ultimately creating more trouble for himself and his friends by being an ******* when he could be getting help from someone who sympathises with him or is on his side.

I understand it's in Roy's character to be overly bitter, and the background Rich has provided for him explains his behavior very well.

But I also feel Roy's character flaws have gotten worse over time--and simply from my personal perspective, they've become less easy to appreciate because his behavior becomes more and more unfounded, or his resentment lasts way longer than I can understand or appreciate.

Also, from a matter of entertainment, I just don't find him funny anymore. I tend to groan at most of his comments. His jokes are tired and cheesy, and Roy simply mouthing off at everyone who isn't sleeping with him is getting old.

Belkar is a jerk, but he's amusing. Miko is mean and going ever more insane, but I find her comments either amusing, or she provides dramatic tension. I don't like either of those characters as people, but I appreciate them in the roles they're playing. For whatever reason, though, that doesn't work with me for Roy. I find Roy less and less easy to appreciate as time goes on, however--and during the period of strips where he was "off screen" while other subplots were being resolved, I didn't miss him in the least. Maybe he is, sadly, the "hero" of the strip, but he's not the character I read it for, not in the least. Not at all, in fact. I actually think I like or at least appreciate every character except him.

AND this is all my personal opinion. I accept some people find him funny, or relate to him and his behavior more easily than I do. But I empathize with the OP and other posters who find his behavior getting tiresome.

And alignment doesn't even factor into this. Roy is Lawful Good as stated. As so often argued with Miko, being a jerk doesn't affect your alignment. At the end of the day, Roy does the right thing and is pretty honorable about it. As discussed above, he may not like Shojo or Hinjo--but he still defended/avenged them when it hit the fan.

Spiky

2007-02-05, 12:33 AM

I'm the oldest in my family, and I still think that Roy is an ass.
Why? Because he is arrogant? Why do people hate arrogance so much? I find most people who are vehemently against arrogant people are very egotistical themselves.

Leadership is stressful. Roy is a D&D Fighter comic strip character, so he takes out his stress by fighting and being sarcastic/snippy. There aren't too many other choices for Roy, frankly. (Celia ain't around much) One of my favorite examples is when he is interviewing V in Origins. Little obnoxious battle of intellectualism there. Loved it. If he did that to me, I'd smile and shake his hand and join up.

And really, to anyone who thinks Roy should've sat down and invited Miko to tea right after she bisected her boss....doesn't that count as an opening action against the group of good guys, thereby allowing him to act without you crying? I mean, wtf does she have to do to allow Roy to fight her in your mind? Kill 417 people in a month? Buy the wrong beer? What?

Spiky

2007-02-05, 12:39 AM

Also, from a matter of entertainment, I just don't find him funny anymore. I tend to groan at most of his comments. His jokes are tired and cheesy, and Roy simply mouthing off at everyone who isn't sleeping with him is getting old.

Belkar is a jerk, but he's amusing.
See, I find the precise opposite true. Belkar's jokes have grown tiresome, something I would expect a drunk at a bar to come up with. Which is approximately the level of Belkar's intelligence, so once again great writing from the Giant. Just find them repetitive and low on my list.

Also opinion, of course.

theKOT

2007-02-05, 12:44 AM

Why? Because he is arrogant? Why do people hate arrogance so much? I find most people who are vehemently against arrogant people are very egotistical themselves.

Leadership is stressful. Roy is a D&D Fighter comic strip character, so he takes out his stress by fighting and being sarcastic/snippy. There aren't too many other choices for Roy, frankly. (Celia ain't around much) One of my favorite examples is when he is interviewing V in Origins. Little obnoxious battle of intellectualism there. Loved it. If he did that to me, I'd smile and shake his hand and join up.

And really, to anyone who thinks Roy should've sat down and invited Miko to tea right after she bisected her boss....doesn't that count as an opening action against the group of good guys, thereby allowing him to act without you crying? I mean, wtf does she have to do to allow Roy to fight her in your mind? Kill 417 people in a month? Buy the wrong beer? What?
I gotta have Tinny's back here.

To start, that was possibly the thinnest veil ever used to cover an ad hominem I have ever seen.
Next, Roy shouldn't take his stress out on other people so often. That's just plain dysfunctional.
Lastly, Roy fighting Miko was fine, the problem was the fact that he didn't even offer her a chance to surrender, despite the fact that he announced his attack anyway and could have very easily readied an action, demanded she throw down her weapon, and sent Hinjo for backup.

Spiky

2007-02-05, 01:03 AM

I gotta have Tinny's back here.

To start, that was possibly the thinnest veil ever used to cover an ad hominem I have ever seen.
Me? Or Roy? Or you?

I know who I am and am not afraid of it. And others' comments don't bring me down. (definition of arrogance in my lexicon, Roy still has a ways to go) Give me a better reason for why my comments could bring someone else down and I'll accept it.

Spiky

2007-02-05, 01:07 AM

And I guess you'll have to relate your def of dysfunctional. Cause I'm not sure how attacking an enemy that has just joined or at least officially started down the path of evil is a stress problem on Roy's part.

SmartAlec

2007-02-05, 01:13 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html

- Rewards the loyalty of a party member by being prepared to fight to the death to defend him.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html

- Roy may have lied to his party to keep them together or to hide uncomfortable truths, but this is where he tells them straight that it was wrong for him to do so.

theKOT

2007-02-05, 01:15 AM

Me? Or Roy? Or you?

I know who I am and am not afraid of it. And others' comments don't bring me down. (definition of arrogance in my lexicon, Roy still has a ways to go) Give me a better reason for why my comments could bring someone else down and I'll accept it.
This post makes little sense. Do you know what ad hominem is? Wiki: "It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_attack) an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument. Other common subtypes of the ad hominem include the ad hominem circumstantial, or ad hominem circumstantiae, an attack which is directed at the circumstances or situation of the arguer; and the ad hominem tu quoque, which objects to an argument by characterizing the arguer as being guilty of the same thing that he is arguing against."
You implied people who are annoyed by arrogance egotistical, thus ad hominem tu quoque.

And I guess you'll have to relate your def of dysfunctional. Cause I'm not sure how attacking an enemy that has just joined or at least officially started down the path of evil is a stress problem on Roy's part.
Once again, you miss the point. Roy is dysfunctional because he relieves stress by bringing others down and making them feel bad, not because he attacked Miko. MY argument was that attacking Miko without offering her a chance to surrender was a selfish, neutral behavior.

elliott20

2007-02-05, 01:48 AM

while watching Roy beat the tar out of Miko felt very satisfying, I found his taunting to be... well.... in a bit of bad taste. Granted, if his purpose was just to get on her nerves, well done. But I find the rhetoric to be a pretty offensive concept in and of itself.

"Look, this woman is being difficult, stubborn, and what have you, she must need some treasure type C! ALL BOW BEFORE THE ALL MIGHT TREASURE TYPE C KNOWN AS THE TROUSER TITAN!! Oh wait, so THAT'S why she's so messed up in the head, she can't get any treasure type C!!"

He might as well have just gone ahead and called Miko a racial slur, because that kind of blatant insult to the sexuality is about on par with that sort of thing. If the purpose of that was to just tick her off no matter how crude it was, well done. He's Lawful Good, not Lawful-Politically-Correct-Sensitive-Good.

This doesn't mean that I find that bit of taunting any less tasteless though.

This also doesn't mean I don't like Roy. I think he fills the hero's shoes pretty well and he's definitely a good guy. And in some way, his flaws actually make him a more human and ultimately more believable as a character rather than some completely over the top fantastic character.

DeathQuaker

2007-02-05, 07:50 AM

I don't think Roy's a jerk because he physically attacked Miko, and I don't think that was part of anyone's original argument (how come Roy attacking Miko has to come into every freaking discussion about Roy?). Roy's a jerk because he's perpetually snarky to EVERYONE, except maybe Celia, Haley, and V. And moreover, he's nasty to people like Hinjo because of "guilt-by-association" when he's never really done anything wrong.

Though I think I figured out why I don't think he's funny. I've got a number of relatives like him in some ways, including one with a massive martyr complex and one with a massive persecution complex. I look at him, and his behavior just hits too close to home. Let's face it, Roy is not someone I would want to know in real life. Elan? sure. Haley? Absolutely (after I hide my valuables. She'll like a challenge.) V? Heck yeah! But Roy? No. Get out of my face, you pathetic relative-reminding-me-of blockhead.

Firevalkyrie

2007-02-05, 09:21 AM

Poster speaks my mind.

I understand why, for the most part, Roy gets so antagonistic--and also has that "martyr-complex" Julia accuses him of.

I still, personally, find it frustrating at times.

Frex, his resentment at being arrested by Azure City and the trial and everything was understandable. But he carried the chip on his shoulder about it way too long. Shojo apologized, explained everything to him, and Roy continued to behave like a complete bitch around him because he couldn't get over any of it. He was still being overly snarky to him the strip before Shojo died.
I think it takes more than an apology to make up for having you arrested by a fanatical, murderous psychopath; trucked across two continents in chains and put on trial for charges that don't even exist, all just to extend a job offer.

If anything, I'd be even MORE pissed off than Roy was. And a lot less funny.

Silverlocke980

2007-02-05, 12:39 PM

I find Roy hilarious, actually... most of his quips come from growing up a fighter in a magic-heavy household. That's why he mentions "big dumb fighter". Imagine the times he's heard that from his father.

Also, the entire Order is loyal to Roy. They stay with him, even with the contract gone and the revelation that they could all get killed any second in their journey.

The exception is probably Belkar, but judging a person's worth or good by Belkar is... not a good idea.

DeathQuaker

2007-02-05, 12:39 PM

I think it takes more than an apology to make up for having you arrested by a fanatical, murderous psychopath; trucked across two continents in chains and put on trial for charges that don't even exist, all just to extend a job offer.

More than an apology.... like offering each person anything they wanted and providing it?

Again--Roy had a right to be upset. But the party was well compensated and it's been a long time and the reasons for the charade were well-laid out, with the much larger issue of the world possibly being absorbed into nothingness that just might, MIGHT eventually cause someone who doesn't have a 15-foot-spiked-pole shoved up his butt (by which I mean Roy, not you) at least eventually choose to alter his perspective based on the broader and frankly, more important issues at hand.

Note that the rest of the Order of the Stick doesn't treat Shojo or Hinjo--or moreover each other (with the exception of Belkar, of course)--with the same antagonism Roy does. And they went through exactly the same thing he did.

If anything, I'd be even MORE pissed off than Roy was. And a lot less funny.

I won't count on you to save the universe from the Snarl, then. :smallwink:

Wyborn

2007-02-05, 12:45 PM

Wait.

People are still arguing over whether or not Roy was in the right in attacking Miko instead of offering her a helping hand?

That's not rhetorical: I have to know.

Cyborg Pirate

2007-02-05, 12:47 PM

@Deathquaker: You have to keep in mind that it's been a far longer time for use then it's been for them in the strip. Actually, I don;t think really much time has passed in the strip. Al least, not so much time that you can say "he should've gotten over it by now".

It seems that people are mostly hung up on what Roy says. I don't understand this. What do words really matter? If he wants to vent his frustration with sarcasm, so what? If he does it funnily in my opinion, yay for me! If he doesn't, so what? His actions have always been good and in character, that's what I judge him by, and he hasn't dissapointed me yet.

What made him a hero for me, is this strip mostly: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0294.gif

elliott20

2007-02-05, 12:47 PM

well, just to be on the same page with everyone... I think Roy's beating the tar out of miko was entirely justified.

DeathQuaker

2007-02-05, 12:55 PM

@Deathquaker: You have to keep in mind that it's been a far longer time for use then it's been for them in the strip. Actually, I don;t think really much time has passed in the strip. Al least, not so much time that you can say "he should've gotten over it by now."

You make a good point that the story for us is longer than time's passage for them--though IIRC I think it's been at least a few weeks for them (it took a little while for them to get back from the Roc's nest, and for Elan to escape from prison). And since Cliffport, Roy's been off-screen, having lots of time to relax and deal with stuff.

And again, the rest of the party doesn't seem to bear the chip on their shoulder he does. And it's in-character for him to bear it when they don't--but it's why I don't appreciate the character. And again, regarding my personal feelings about him, I admit his behavior hits too close to home--I know people like him and I just want to smack them around most of the time.

But as part of the story, I also have a great deal of trouble having faith in a "hero" who walks around with such blinders on. An antagonist? Yes. A hero... it's hard to give him my back. Anti-heroes are great, but I tend to like the likable ones. It's a preference.

What made him a hero for me, is this strip mostly: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0294.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0294.gif)

And see, that strip made me just go, "My god, he actually did something right that didn't involve hitting something with a sword. How unusual."

But I think we can agree to disagree on that.

Brickwall

2007-02-05, 12:57 PM

I'm just gonna throw my hat in to the "childhood issues with his disapproving father and bratty sister" ring. If it hasn't been created, I'm making it.

Wyborn

2007-02-05, 12:59 PM

DeathQuaker

2007-02-05, 01:03 PM

Huh. Okay, I guess I understand this, I will come back later with a great lengthy post, largely hewed cold from the corpse of an earlier one, explaining why Roy was right to kick Miko's ass...

This thread was not meant to be questioning why Roy was right (or wrong) to kick Miko's ass. This is not the place for that. The OP brought up Roy's overly fragile and overly defended ego, as it relates to his remarks to Hinjo, his remarks to Miko (not his actions), and his treatment of Elan.

Understand that I have no authority to do so, but just as a fellow community member and your "neighbor" here at this board, I humbly ask of you a favor, that you please therefore take that lengthy post to one of the other 10 threads that actually were started for discussing that subject.

...And also that, at his core, he's a pretty good guy.

That, here, I look forward to hearing.

Wyborn

2007-02-05, 01:05 PM

This thread was not meant to be questioning why Roy was right (or wrong) to kick Miko's ass. This is not the place for that. The OP brought Roy's ego, his remarks to Hinjo, his remarks to Miko (not his actions), and his treatment of Elan.

Understand that I have no authority to do so, but just as a fellow community member and your "neighbor" here at this board, I humbly ask of you a favor, that you please therefore take that lengthy post to one of the other 10 threads that actually were started for discussing that subject.

As you command. However, the matter of Roy's insults also come into play, so I will be mentioning those at length.

That, here, I look forward to hearing.

Not nearly so much as I look forward to writing it.

chibibar

2007-02-05, 01:09 PM

Roy has a lot of angst in him. While trying not to take into the fact that Roy is a main PC in OoTS, all of Roy's life people always think they can "outthink" him or "belittle" him one form or another.

Roy's Dad ALWAYS give him grief about being a fighter instead of a mage.
While Roy's in college, OTHER fighters give him grief on trying to be a smarter fighter.
Roy's old party - give him grief for trying to stand up for Durkon.
Roy's current party - always give him grief about something about being a fighter or being dumb..... even V at first, but later learn.

Roy ALWAYS seem to have to prove himself toward someone on why he is good fighter and being LG. It is either something about Roy or relate to Roy or just how people think about Roy. No wonder the man has a lot of Angst. There is an outlet. Roy does take his fighting seriously and sometimes an outlet for his emotional baggage, and of course Elan. Elan can take the snarkiness and still being Roy's friend.

I think sometimes Roy doesn't take Elan seriously cause Elan doesn't take Roy seriously, and Roy needs that kind of reinforcement. Roy needs to know that people need him because he is Roy and dependable not because what people THINK he should do, or how he should have acted.

It is VERY tiring that you have to keep proving to others that you are not worthless (that is how I see it)

Cyborg Pirate

2007-02-05, 01:18 PM

You make a good point that the story for us is longer than time's passage for them--though IIRC I think it's been at least a few weeks for them (it took a little while for them to get back from the Roc's nest, and for Elan to escape from prison). And since Cliffport, Roy's been off-screen, having lots of time to relax and deal with stuff.

Could be. I'm not very sure on how much time has elapsed myself.

And again, the rest of the party doesn't seem to bear the chip on their shoulder he does. And it's in-character for him to bear it when they don't--but it's why I don't appreciate the character. And again, regarding my personal feelings about him, I admit his behavior hits too close to home--I know people like him and I just want to smack them around most of the time.

I can see where you're coming from, and I can't argue that ofcourse, can't argue personal preference. It's the same for me too, in relation to Miko. I counsel a lot of people in RL, and the insight I've gained into peoples minds over the years has left me with a very strong distaste for people who delude themselves. This is also why I'm more partial to Belkar then to Miko, as I feel that although Belkar is very, very evil, he's atleast honest about it. In my experience, the self delusional are the most destructive and dangerous kind out there. It's also why I like Roy, as he is honest, although explicit, about his feelings.

But as part of the story, I also have a great deal of trouble having faith in a "hero" who walks around with such blinders on. An antagonist? Yes. A hero... it's hard to give him my back. Anti-heroes are great, but I tend to like the likable ones. It's a preference.

Well, ofcourse I can understand that preference. Everybody likes a charming person more. Through experience and action however (yes, I have some things to be ashamed of), likeabilty is a very dangerous thing, because you are inclined to like a likable person more despite what he or she really is or despite what motivates that likability.

But you lost me on the blinders tho. What do you mean by "a "hero" who walks around with such blinders on" ?

Milandros

2007-02-05, 01:32 PM

...
Let's face it, Roy is not someone I would want to know in real life. Elan? sure. Haley? Absolutely (after I hide my valuables. She'll like a challenge.) V? Heck yeah! But Roy? No. Get out of my face, you pathetic relative-reminding-me-of blockhead.

Hmn, I think you're romanticising the others a bit much.

Elan will accidentally burn down your house, or get you into trouble with an angry biker gang, or invite a pack of rabid dogs into your house after smothering you with meat blood. One of the main reason's Roy is so snippy to him is because he regularly gets the team into trouble. He doesn't mean to do anything wrong, but show Elan a self destruct rune and he'll touch it and then ask what it does.

Haley is probably pretty good company, I'll give you that. She'll empty your bank account when you're not looking, but otherwise quite reasonable.

V? Well, V is probably great company if you enjoy being told again and again and again how brilliant he is, how relatively stupid you are, how there is no way you can understand his incredible intellect, etc etc.

Belkar is probably really good company, quite fun right up to the point he gets you involved in a fight-to-the-death with the biker gang Elan ticked off already or decides that you're boring and stabs you.

Durkon? Fairly decent company though a bit taciturn and surly at times (see Origins for a good example). He'd not be a bad drinking companion though :)

And, of course, Roy. He'll be friendly and interesting company, but won't be able to resist making the odd sarcastic comment, particularly if you've done something boneheaded. Oh, and if you attack him several times, threaten his life, threaten his friends and then kill his allies in front of him before turning towards him with a weapon in your hand, he'll fight you and probably be quite personally rude to you.

The rest of the team are jerks too.

I think people are forgetting something: this is a comedy strip and Roy is playing the straight man. If Roy is always calm and unflappable, accepting of the other's idiocies and excentricies and just a realy nice, quiet guy, then half the humour disappears. The rest of the team are completely disfunctional. They'd never be together if it wasn't for Roy, who formed them as a group, gave them direction, and held them together.

Roy's job in the strip is to be the ever-suffering stick-in-the-mud rock that makes the others funny. A comedy about two guys who live together and like to party and live in a mess? Hmn. A comedy about one guy who makes a mess and another who's compulsively neat? That can work.

Cyborg Pirate

2007-02-05, 01:36 PM

A comedy about one guy who makes a mess and another who's compulsively neat? That can work.

It's the win formula for many sitcoms

Firevalkyrie

2007-02-05, 01:50 PM

It's the win formula for many sitcoms
Or at least it was, until "Full House" came along and ate all the funny out of sitcoms forever.

DeathQuaker

2007-02-05, 01:51 PM

Well, ofcourse I can understand that preference. Everybody likes a charming person more. Through experience and action however (yes, I have some things to be ashamed of), likeabilty is a very dangerous thing, because you are inclined to like a likable person more despite what he or she really is or despite what motivates that likability.

Oh of course. And actually, many of my favorite love-to-hate villains are the particularly polite and eloquent ones. But... many rogues and seeming jerks can be enjoyable. Anti-heroes like.... well, ever seen Dr. Who? There's a hero that's awfully tetchy (at least in some incarnations) and bound to call his companions "stupid apes" when he's upset. But somehow, he's entertaining, despite his rough streak. It's just Roy's particular brand of jerkyness that rubs me the wrong way.

But you lost me on the blinders tho. What do you mean by "a "hero" who walks around with such blinders on" ?

Sorry, I always expound on unimportant details and fail to explain things that ought to be explained. As quoth Winifred Burkle, "I'm a yammerer from way back." :smallsmile: (You don't need to know who she is if you don't recognize the name.)

Roy often appears to blind himself to the broader issues at hand (Elan being taken by bandits, a horrible monster trying to unmake creation) and prefers focusing on, well, himself and the bad things done to him. Shojo's dead and Miko's foaming at the mouth, and Roy still manages to kvetch about people seeing him as a big stupid fighter. In his own little brain, the spotlight is always on him, and he's constantly, obsessively, single-mindedly worried about his image as a fighter, or how people aren't treating him fairly. And moreover, he behaves, in my opinion, as if he seems to think he is the only person who has ever suffered any sort of indignity.

And while I'm making random pop culture references, to quote Moonstruck, "You think you're the only person who ever shed a tear?"

We all have insecurities, and we all want to be seen in a good light. We all have a tendency towards selfishness. It's human nature. But Roy is OBSESSED with his image, beyond a lot of other important things at hand, like his friendships, and potential allies, and the world going boom. That's what I mean by "blinders." He's not going into this saving the world thing with the right thing on his mind.

AT LEAST.... on the surface.

In his defense, Roy does ultimately do the right thing. He did rescue Elan way back when. He rescued Hinjo, regardless of what he thinks of the Sapphire Guard. But on the other hand, sometimes he has these revelations too late, or acts for the wrong reason (took him awhile to decide to rescue Elan from the bandits, and did he rescue Hinjo because it was the right thing to do or because he, again, just wanted to prove he was useful?

And therefore, it's hard to have faith in him as a protagonist. I often wonder if the story is not going to end happily (well, with the exception of Elan :smallsmile: ). I wonder how much Roy's extensive pride is going to hurt everyone before he finally figures it out.

Cyborg Pirate

2007-02-05, 02:11 PM

AT LEAST.... on the surface.

:smallsmile: well, since you've said it yourself, don't you think he deserves the benefit of doubt then? It's only his words that reflect any blinders. His actions have been for others a lot.

I know the type very well. It's an uncommon type of person, one who'll only seem egocentric or downright a bastard on the surface, which is often a facade to hide the fact that they have a soft heart underneath. It's a barrier some people put up to not seem weak, since kindness will very often be confused with weakness.

There's very often a massive discrepancy between what people say and what people do. Which is why I always look to actions first, and to words last.

Roy has shown that he does think about the wellbeing of others on several occasions, and that coupled with his actions makes me believe that he at the very least deserves the benefit of doubt.

oh, and I wish I could watch dr. Who ;_;

DeathQuaker

2007-02-05, 09:47 PM

:smallsmile: well, since you've said it yourself, don't you think he deserves the benefit of doubt then? It's only his words that reflect any blinders. His actions have been for others a lot.

Such actions as walking away from the party when Elan was in trouble?

I can see both sides of the story. I may argue one side (because it's fun :smallsmile: ) but I can see both. Roy isn't the source of all evil or anything. He does eventually do the right thing.

But I also think that he believes everything he says. It may only be part of what he thinks or feels, but I do think he's being truthful. And those truths can hurt.

To clarify an earlier statement, he may do the right thing. But I very much fear it may not be in time. The upside of this as a reader is it certainly keeps me in suspense!

There's very often a massive discrepancy between what people say and what people do. Which is why I always look to actions first, and to words last.

Words *are* actions. Words are very important, and are sometimes dismissed too lightly. The "sticks and stones" thing is, IMO, a myth. Yes, sometimes we need to choose when to ignore them and when not to--but a great deal in the world has been altered and affected by words. Alliances are made and broken; friendships are formed and lost. We do not form the relationships we do through a swing of a weapon or a wave of the hand. We are social beings; the way we communicate with one another can be absolutely vital. Perhaps you think that is how it ought not be, but the fact is that it is so, and I sincerely doubt it will change. Words are enormously powerful, and I pray one day I might choose to use them well.:smallwink: Even as it is, I admit at times I can be quite manipulative with just words, sometimes to the point that it scares me.

Roy's words may well come back to haunt him--the wrong hurt, the wrong insult at the wrong time may sow a great deal more damage than any +5 Starmetal Great Sword ever could.

Mark my words. ;)

And with that, I will bid thee adieu. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you but I've got some huge RL projects coming up that I need to pull myself away from the MB for awhile--but I've been enjoying this discussion. Thanks.

Krellen

2007-02-05, 09:51 PM

Words are very important, and are sometimes dismissed too lightly.
Case in Point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) Words destroyed Miko - they were very important. That's when Miko's fall started, when she started to hate Roy and, from there, start to see a twisted world where he and everyone associated with him were pawns of evil. The right words at that point would have sent her an entirely different way, and we might see a better - if not happier - Paladin.

rosebud

2007-02-05, 10:20 PM

As the ruler of Azure City, and a nephew who had just lost his uncle, he had no such obligation. That makes his mercy an act of pure good, IMO.I'll agree with that point. Fortunately, paladin means Lawful Good. So he's in character. :smallsmile:

I also think he was being irresponsible by offering mercy to Miko. She was clearly unstable, and therefore even if she seemed to waver, it was in no way worth the risk to approach her equitably.Again, I don't think he realized how unbalanced she was. You have to understand, the panel where Miko puts her sword out and Hinjo is smiling is one of my favorites. I love the smile, and it portrays him so well. And the "I'm so... confused..." Miko in the panel before is a great illustration of why he (and others) had hope for her.

Remember, even rulers need to take risks. There's a fine line between reckless brilliance and irresponsible. And it's only his first hour on the job. Shojo did far worse than Hinjo today, when you think about it. And he was doing this for 47 years. :smallwink:

Sound fair?

neriana

2007-02-05, 10:21 PM

It is VERY tiring that you have to keep proving to others that you are not worthless (that is how I see it)

It's very tiring to think that you have to prove to others that you're not worthless. That mindset is also extremely irritating to others. This is Roy's issue, and he really needs to get over it because it's gotten really old.

Thrawn183

2007-02-05, 10:28 PM

Demented

2007-02-05, 10:30 PM

It's very tiring to think that you have to prove to others that you're not worthless. That mindset is also extremely irritating to others. This is Roy's issue, and he really needs to get over it because it's gotten really old.

That mindset never really goes away.
It's the very foundation for most every form of human competition.

Though, it could be more accurately described as proving to others that you're better than them.

Edit:
It only gets annoying when it borders the realm of insecurity... which Roy probably has reached. But it's not very pronounced. It's only been brought up maybe two or three times in a comic with 400+ pages.

neriana

2007-02-05, 10:55 PM

Is it just me or were all of Roy's "taunts" completely deserved (except for perhaps the final one).

Miko: You! Of course! It's all your fault!
Roy: Yeah, I should never have said, "Kill your master," when we were playing Truth or Dare. What was I thinking?

Miko: You tricked me! You staged all of this so that I would strike down my Lord!
Roy: Wow, Miko Miyazaki ignoring all possibilites in order to arrived at a preconceived conclusion that happens to support her existing emotional state.

These are the first two of Roy's taunts. I could go on and quote all of them but that is superfluous to the point I'm trying to make: Roy doesn't just go after Miko because he's a jerk and he likes it, everything (again, except for the last comment) is in response to something stupid/paranoid/fanatical that Miko has just said previously. And frankly I think the last comment from Roy was in response to everything Miko has put him through.

So yeah, nothing's up with Roy and his ego...

Er, no. Those taunts do make sense (though he's still being a jerk and making sure that the situation will only get worse). The ones insulting her sexually, which I notice you didn't bother to quote, are not a logical response to anything she said in any way.

Demented: I also think Roy's insecurity has come up a lot more than a few times. And it may not irritate you immediately, but it does annoy me as soon as I see it :smallwink:.

malakim2099

2007-02-05, 11:21 PM

I think something the Roy-haters (I would say Roy-armchair psychiatrists, but that takes too long) is missing, is the fact that Roy is human. Lawful Good doesn't make you a saint, it means you have a certain code of conduct. Such code of conduct doesn't mean that you can't be snarky at people. Considering how he was raised as a fighter in a house full of wizards... (heck, his Dad told him about Xykon so that he could tell JULIA when she was old enough... you know a FIGHTER couldn't handle it), it's not surprising at all that being defensive about his class is something he does all the time. It's a reflex, at this point.

His Lawful Good credentials are unquestioned, at least to me. He saves the life of a character that was a jerk to him (Durkon, in Origin of the PCs), he DOES realize what a mistake he's making in leaving Elan, and goes back to rescue him and the rest of the party. He saves Elan later by swallowing his pride and putting on the belt of gender-switching, giving him a better perspective on things.

The other thing the Roy-criticizers seem to be ignoring, is the fact that Roy has grown as a character. The telling moment is when he tells his dad off in the Azure City, after the trial. A neutral character would have said "Screw you pops, I'm outta here!"

Roy, being LG, goes along with Shojo and his dad because DESPITE his personal feelings, the fate of the world is at stake and no one else can do this. That, to me, is a large sign of maturity right there. In other words, Roy is one of (if not the) main characters, and this is about watching his character grow and develop beyond more than just a self-conscious fighter who gets his profession rubbed in his face at family reunions.

Myself, I'd advise people to just enjoy the ride... or, to paraphrase the best TV show ever...

"Keep in mind it's just a webcomic, you should really just relax!"

Timespike

2007-02-05, 11:28 PM

And if this is about the trashtalk he gave to Miko.... TOTALLY justified. If I was playing Roy, I'd have probably done the same thing but with more swearing and less funny. (Good thing I'm not.)

I would have just pulled out all the stops and killed her. Silently.

theKOT

2007-02-05, 11:30 PM

The other thing the Roy-criticizers seem to be ignoring, is the fact that Roy has grown as a character. The telling moment is when he tells his dad off in the Azure City, after the trial. A neutral character would have said "Screw you pops, I'm outta here!"

Roy, being LG, goes along with Shojo and his dad because DESPITE his personal feelings, the fate of the world is at stake and no one else can do this. That, to me, is a large sign of maturity right there. In other words, Roy is one of (if not the) main characters, and this is about watching his character grow and develop beyond more than just a self-conscious fighter who gets his profession rubbed in his face at family reunions.
Actually, agreeing to save the world can be an act of self-preservation, since the world includes Roy. I think Roy did it mostly out of consideration for others, but let's face it: The best chance Roy would have for saving the world would be provided by having Shojo as an ally. A SMART neutral character would have done the same thing as Roy. You can't even really say Roy did it any better than a neutral character.

Verick Severith

2007-02-06, 06:37 PM

Why is everyone giving Roy crap just because he feels pissed off at Miko? Notice how he was the one who originally defended Miko and even tried to understand her. And then she thanks him by essentially blaming him for everything in the end.

Look at Roy's life. He's never had a shoulder to cry on when he's upset, he's never had someone to talk to when he's angry. Hell he's pretty much been forced to clam up into himself. Also notice how he's always feeling like everyone's judging him? Maybe that's because for most of his life people always were! Noone seems to recognize the good he does which I suppose has given him a bit of a Martyr complex. He bears the brunt of the quest because he was after all the party leader.

He also has to prove himself to everyone and constantly defend his lifestyle and choices.

When Miko killed Shojo his life was further complicated. Not only that she had once again caused him grief and I guess he had had enough....

God nevermind this post makes no sense! My thoughts are completly unorganized and lost. Please ignore because I know it's stupid.

Iranon

2007-02-06, 07:45 PM

Did Roy's father give him a hard time? Certainly. Could this explain some of his annoying tendencies? Yes.

However, not everyone with abrasive parents becomes a jerk. Some would in fact go out of their way to be courteous and open-minded (although the motivation for that would probably be pure spite - I don't believe in nice without ulterior motives :smallwink: )

TinSoldier

2007-02-07, 01:10 AM

Oh, Verick! You are sooo right! Poor, poor Roy!

He grew up without with both parents instead of as an orphan! Of course I feel sorry for him. Gosh.

Levant

2007-02-07, 02:04 AM

Oh, Verick! You are sooo right! Poor, poor Roy!

He grew up without with both parents instead of as an orphan! Of course I feel sorry for him. Gosh.

One of whom gave him nothing but crap for his choice to become a fighter and practically disowned him. Miko at least had other people's encouragement (Shojo being impressed with her abilities and asking her to become one of his paladins when she was only 13.) So yeah, I think he's kind of justified in being a little defensive about his class.

Roderick_BR

2007-02-07, 05:18 AM

I believe that, as the party leader in a "unreliable group", he goes through a lot of stress. Add to it the need to prove himself useful as a fighter (to both himself and his father)
He's also a sarcastic bastard. Just part of his charm... ;)
Other than that, he needs to get laid too. Not that he didn't get some strips ago...

Cyborg Pirate

2007-02-07, 05:58 AM

Such actions as walking away from the party when Elan was in trouble?

I can see both sides of the story. I may argue one side (because it's fun :smallsmile: ) but I can see both. Roy isn't the source of all evil or anything. He does eventually do the right thing.

But I also think that he believes everything he says. It may only be part of what he thinks or feels, but I do think he's being truthful. And those truths can hurt.

To clarify an earlier statement, he may do the right thing. But I very much fear it may not be in time. The upside of this as a reader is it certainly keeps me in suspense!

Can't argue much about this since it's more a personal preference thing, but Win for the story anyways! :smallsmile:

Words *are* actions. Words are very important, and are sometimes dismissed too lightly. The "sticks and stones" thing is, IMO, a myth. Yes, sometimes we need to choose when to ignore them and when not to--but a great deal in the world has been altered and affected by words. Alliances are made and broken; friendships are formed and lost. We do not form the relationships we do through a swing of a weapon or a wave of the hand. We are social beings; the way we communicate with one another can be absolutely vital. Perhaps you think that is how it ought not be, but the fact is that it is so, and I sincerely doubt it will change. Words are enormously powerful, and I pray one day I might choose to use them well.:smallwink: Even as it is, I admit at times I can be quite manipulative with just words, sometimes to the point that it scares me.

Well, I should've slightly differently: I still say words really do not mean much; The only reason they seem to do is because we ascribe so much meaning to them. Life becomes a lot easier when you can look past words and look directly into a person.

Well no, that's not strictly true. It becomes easier because you don't get fooled anymore, but it becomes harder because you can't blind yourself to the uglyness in most people. But oh well, such is life.

I feel is does allow me to appreciate the good people more for who they really are then for who they seem to be :smallsmile: