Silly WoTC, clear, well-written rules are for...other games?

[ReluctantDragon]

So, in an effort to metaphorically pound my head against a wall, I've been trying to decipher the rules surrounding the Elvencraft Bow.

The Elvencraft bow (Races of the Wild, page 166) is a bow that functions as a longbow/quarterstaff or a shortbow/club. The wielder incurs no penalty on attack rolls when using an elvencraft bow as a melee weapon.

Nice weapon huh?

Here's the question: For the purpose of feats, can a character have Weapon Focus: Elvencraft Bow and gain the benefits of the bonus on both the bow and the quarterstaff? Or would he have to have Weapon Focus: Longbow AND Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff?

Next awesome followup on this great work of editing, for enchanting said bow, it gives the rules of:

Magical enhancements to an elvencraft bow only affect its use as a bow. Enhancements to the melee capabilities of the weapon must be added separately.

What is the definition of separately? In combination with "only" it is quite confusing. Can the weapon only be enchanted with ranged enchantments in general? Or is it that you can enchant it for ranged, but melee is completely separate enchantments.

Anyone? Bueller?

[nedz]

So, in an effort to metaphorically pound my head against a wall, I've been trying to decipher the rules surrounding the Elvencraft Bow.
Well you have to remember that these rules were written in Quenya and only translated into English.


The Elvencraft bow (Races of the Wild, page 166) is a bow that functions as a longbow/quarterstaff or a shortbow/club. The wielder incurs no penalty on attack rolls when using an elvencraft bow as a melee weapon.

Either


Here's the question: For the purpose of feats, can a character have Weapon Focus: Elvencraft Bow and gain the benefits of the bonus on both the bow and the quarterstaff? Or would he have to have Weapon Focus: Longbow AND Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff?

Next awesome followup on this great work of editing, for enchanting said bow, it gives the rules of:

Magical enhancements to an elvencraft bow only affect its use as a bow. Enhancements to the melee capabilities of the weapon must be added separately.

What is the definition of separately? In combination with "only" it is quite confusing. Can the weapon only be enchanted with ranged enchantments in general? Or is it that you can enchant it for ranged, but melee is completely separate enchantments.

My guess is that this is meant to be like double weapons — so separate sets of enchantments, starting with +1 (twice)

[Zubrowka74]

My guess is that this is meant to be like double weapons — so separate sets of enchantments, starting with +1 (twice)

But the staff is allready a double weapon so that's three times +1!

[Eldariel]

But the staff is allready a double weapon so that's three times +1!

It's a triple weapon, silly.

[ReluctantDragon]

Ah, Playground. Rarely do you disappoint...

What of the feats aspect to my quandary?

[Windstorm]

for the feats problem, it depends on if you're trying to meet class prereqs or not

in the case of weapon focus: elvencraft bow, it would apply to all attacks made by any usage of the weapon; but would not meet class prerequisites.

in the case of weapon focus: longbow, it would only apply to attacks made by using it as a bow, but you would qualify for any classes that require weapon focus: longbow as a prereq.

composite greatbows, bone bows, elven blades (courtblade and thinblade) all have similar issues, but not the multi-type nature. they simply count as another weapon for feat and qualification purposes.

[nedz]

Oops, I seem to have mangled my quotes :smallredface:

When I said Either this was meant to refer to the feats question.

Now Weapon Focus's bonus is untyped so multiple applications may apply.

[Captnq]

Actually, I thought of that. Alas, the elvencraft bow does not actually turn the bow into a different weapon.

"An elvencraft shortbow functions as a club when wielded as a melee weapon. An elvencraft longbow functions as a quarterstaff when wielded as a melee weapon"

So, it's still the bow it was originally, but now it also can be a quarterstaff.

Hrmmm...

However, if you WANTED TO, you COULD, and this would require a very understanding DM, you could make an Solid Gold, Elvencrafted Elven Doublebow.

You see, making a melee weapon out of alchemical gold makes it a heavy weapon and that makes it an exotic weapon. And Elven Double Bow is an Exotic Weapon. So the ranged part and the melee part are both exotic, thus you COULD get the whole thing under ONE exotic weapon feat.

Exotic Weapon (Gold Elvencrafted Elven Double Bow)

Then you could get feats based around your one unique weapon, but it'll hurt if that mother EVER gets sundered.


Of course you couldn't use a quarterstaff with that feat, or a normal elven double bow. You could ONLY use Solid Gold Elvencrafted Elven Double Bows, but it would only be one feat to learn.

And on the upside it would be a triple weapon. So you'd have three different "weapons" one ranged, two melee that you could each enchant separartely.

Dear God... what would that even cost?

Lets see...
elven Double Bow 1000 gp + 300 gp mk
Elvencrafted +300 +300 mk +300 mk

Solid Gold... need BOTH ends +2500 +2500

What the hell, techincally you can add a different material for the bow Lets make it Dragonbone +100 gp.

You know, lets trick this out... Add a bow blade. 2 gp. Add +300 for Mk.
And you can never go wrong with Baatorian green Steel for +1000 gp

So, before we add enchantments: 8,602 gp.
Now we want to add +1 +1 +1, +1 to get it out of the way +4,000 gp.

The bow itself... you can't make it composite, so you want to use the extrapolated WSA from Hank's Energy Bow. +14,200 gp

So, you would have for the base masterwork item:

Cost: 8,602 gp
Material: Gold/Gold/Baatorian Green Steel/Dragonbone
Damage (m): 1d8/1d8/1d4+1/1d8
Critical: x2/x2/x3/x3
Range: -/-/-/110 ft
Weight: 6.5 lbs
Type: B/B/P/P
Ammo: -/-/-/Arrow

Cost of base magic: +1/+1/+1/+1 (Energy Bow) = +18,200 gp

Okay... what are we missing... I feel like I'm forgetting something... Oil chambers? Weapon Capsules? Wand chambers? Well, I mean, between a triple weapon capsule and an oil chamber you could have an arrow go flying off and do +4d6, but that gets expensive REALLY quick. I don't know if this qualifies for a wand chamber. It needs a Hilt.

Ya know, it'll come to me This will do for a start:

Without Hank's Energy Bow WSA: 12,602 gp
With: 26,802 gp

Lots of room for enchantment of WSAs.

But really push for the Energy WSA:

This bow accommodates a user of any strength. It fires arrows of pure magical force that deal 2d6 points of damage. As they are force effects, the arrows do not suffer a miss chance when used against incorporeal creatures. The bow can be used to fire normal or magic arrows, but in such cases the bow does not confer its damage due to force. [snip] In addition, you can use the bow to make power shots. To do so, before making attack rolls, choose a number to subtract from your attack rolls up to your base attack and add this same number to the damage dealt by the bow with any attack that hits.

Or just use hanks energy bow to begin with and make it elvencrafted. You really need to check with your DM as to how far he'll let you push it. Just the base, unenchanted quadruple weapon is sort of nasty.

[Captnq]

Was I thinking of Stirge ammo? +2 WSA bonus on ammo, lets it do 1d4 points of con damage a round starting the round after it hits. Makes your target waste actions trying to pull it out.

Got a high Int? Steam WSA, move action to add your Int bonus to your damage. 16,200 gp, but nice for the double bow. The damage adds to both arrows.

TWF EWSA from the Silver Sickles of Soranth Gives you the TWF feat for 10,000 gp spread out across both halves of the quarterstaff. Save you a feat there.

Ummm... Soldier is good. 2,500 gp to ignore fatigue. Get sandals of the vagabond and you never have to sleep again, or stop moving. Ever.

Ooo!
NOW I REMEMBER

Add Shielding to the Bow Blade. +1 WSA Magic Item Compendium. You can leave off the baatorian green steel. Lets you turn the bow blade into a heavy steel shield! Technically you can still use it as a quarterstaff and double bow.

How does it work? Damned if I know. I'm talking RAW here. I guess it appears with a hole in it that you can shoot arrows out of. It's Frickin' MAGIC, Alright???

However, you only need one hand to hold your bow, you need two to fire. So while you are shooting your bow, you are cool, but when you stop firing, you have your shield! And you can enchant it like a shield, which gives you something else to stack enhancements on. There's some nice Shield Crystals out there as well.

[Cikomyr]

Depends on how you want to look at it, methink. If you want to go logic, then "Weapon Focus" would have to be applied separately to quarterstaff and the longbow. Because why would learning how to be better at bowshot means you are better at wacking people with a stick?

However, game balance? Martial characters already get the short end of the stick compared to casters. So let'em.

[Zetapup]

Oops, I seem to have mangled my quotes :smallredface:

When I said Either this was meant to refer to the feats question.

Now Weapon Focus's bonus is untyped so multiple applications may apply

Don't bonuses from the same source not stack? It wouldn't be a big deal if it did though (oh joy, an extra +1 to attack for a feat)

[SaintRidley]

So, in an effort to metaphorically pound my head against a wall, I've been trying to decipher the rules surrounding the Elvencraft Bow.

The Elvencraft bow (Races of the Wild, page 166) is a bow that functions as a longbow/quarterstaff or a shortbow/club. The wielder incurs no penalty on attack rolls when using an elvencraft bow as a melee weapon.

Nice weapon huh?

Here's the question: For the purpose of feats, can a character have Weapon Focus: Elvencraft Bow and gain the benefits of the bonus on both the bow and the quarterstaff? Or would he have to have Weapon Focus: Longbow AND Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff?



My read: WF: Elfbow would give you the +1 when using the bow in either capacity. WF: LBow and WF: Qstaff would give you +1, but only when using the Elfbow in the capacity you have WF on.



Next awesome followup on this great work of editing, for enchanting said bow, it gives the rules of:

Magical enhancements to an elvencraft bow only affect its use as a bow. Enhancements to the melee capabilities of the weapon must be added separately.

What is the definition of separately? In combination with "only" it is quite confusing. Can the weapon only be enchanted with ranged enchantments in general? Or is it that you can enchant it for ranged, but melee is completely separate enchantments.

Anyone? Bueller?

My read: Unless it is a melee specific enhancement (and thus not useful on it when using it as a bow), all magical enhancements only work when using it as a bow. That includes the +1 or whatever basic enhancement bonus that makes it magical in the first place.

[nedz]

Don't bonuses from the same source not stack? It wouldn't be a big deal if it did though (oh joy, an extra +1 to attack for a feat)
Hmm, you might be right.

My read: WF: Elfbow would give you the +1 when using the bow in either capacity. WF: LBow and WF: Qstaff would give you +1, but only when using the Elfbow in the capacity you have WF on.

The question here is: What if you have WF (Elfbow) and WF (QStaff) ?
Or WF (Elfbow) and WF (LBow) ?

[Tohsaka Rin]

The text says the Elvencraft longbow functions as a longbow at range, and a quarterstaff at melee.

I think it makes sense that you'd rely on wep foc longbow for using it at ranged, and wep foc quarterstaff at melee.

This actually reminds me of an entry in one of the books, that says you enchant a shield for defense separately from enchantments use for offensive bashing.

[Person_Man]

Consider this houserule:

An elvencraft bow does not provoke attacks of opportunity when fired while threatened by another creature, and can be used to make attacks of opportunity against creatures within 5 feet.

That's pretty much the intent behind the poorly written rule. And it has the benefit of not making the bow work on two "tracks" of enchantments, which is basically unplayable at high levels due to the increased costs.

[killem2]

What is really funny is, WoTC has probably the most rules heavy and complex game in existence with Magic: The Gathering. When you look at their Comprehensive rule book, they managed to keep that so clean and tidy.

But D&D they just lose their minds.

[Icewraith]

Consider this houserule:

An elvencraft bow does not provoke attacks of opportunity when fired while threatened by another creature, and can be used to make attacks of opportunity against creatures within 5 feet.

That's pretty much the intent behind the poorly written rule. And it has the benefit of not making the bow work on two "tracks" of enchantments, which is basically unplayable at high levels due to the increased costs.

Is this in addition to some of the text or replacing it (to negate the enchantment cost language)?

I'm missing the part where firing the bow in melee doesn't provoke. Hitting someone with the bow in melee wouldn't provoke anyway, and you want to specify wielder's natural reach instead of five feat to avoid odd side effects from size changes.

For instance, a giant with an elvencraft bow only making AoOs within five feet or pixies using elvencraft bows so they can threaten.

Try this: An elvencraft [short/long]bow is treated for all purposes, including making or provoking AoOs and weapon-specific feats, as both a [short/long]bow for making ranged attacks and a [club/quarterstaff] for making melee attacks. You may enchant the shortbow version as if it were a single weapon, but any ranged-only enchantments (such as distance) do not apply on melee attacks and enchantments that require a specific damage type (such as Impact or Keen) only apply to attacks (or ammunition) that deal that damage type. Either or both ends of the longbow version may be enchanted, with the wielder choosing one end's set (normally whichever is more favorable) of enchantments to apply to ranged attacks at the time the attack is made, subject to the same restrictions as the shortbow version.

For instance, [namegenerator] the [apellation] is the proud owner of a +1 firey burst keen/+1 holy impact elvencraft long bow. [gender pronoun] may make ranged attacks using normal arrows and either treat them as +1 keen firey burst or +1 holy (impact would also apply if using the arrows that deal bludgeoning damage in the new ammo section, but then keen would not). Similarly, [gender pronoun] may make melee attacks with either the +1 fiery burst (but not keen, since quarterstaves deal bludgeoning damage) or +1 holy impact ends when making melee attacks, or both ends at once if [gender pronoun] full attacks using the two-weapon fighting rules. [namegenerator] can even alternate melee and ranged attacks if [gender pronoun]'s base attack bonus is high enough, but will provoke an AoO under the normal rules for making ranged attacks if any opponents threaten [gender pronoun].