Lvl 18 Undead Centaur War Hulk

[Valtu]

First, some background:
I posted previously about a Lich character I was starting, for an evil parallel campaign our group is going to be running sometime in the near future (as soon as everyone gets their evil characters rolled up).

Now I'm attempting to help one of our other party members re-build a character from a previous campaign, going by the guidelines presented in Savage Species/MM 3.5 and Libris Mortis.

The character's name is Tris, which is a reference to Pris, from Blade Runner. She is a centaur and ghoul/ghast. My friend has also made sure that I let everyone know that the humanoid part of the centaur looks exactly like Grace Jones. So an undead, ravenous, flesh-eating, always-on-horseback version of Grace Jones. . . with the hair/makeup of that chick from Blade Runner.

Originally the character was a zombie, but it required a great deal of custom rules and tweaking to the extent that it was still very OP. Our DM said he would significantly nerf that concept this time around, so the idea is we're going to try do a "by the books" version and see how balanced it would be with all the level adjustments and appropriate setup. We're going with Ghoul this time since there is actually a published book with stats and what-not. This character is very dear to her heart, so trying not to deviate from this setup for the most part (although I am trying to get her to look into a prestige class instead of Fighter levels after the racial/undead levels).

I've updated this post with more detail in the background section above, as well as a link to the latest build at the bottom of this post. A quick summary of some of the most major points/tips:

-Feats every 3 hit-dice, not levels

-Ability score bonuses gained every 4 hit-dice, not levels (yeah, that didn't sink in right away :smallredface:)

-Ability score bonuses/feats contained within Savage Species class progressions are not in addition to the two points above.

Again, many thanks to all those that have helped and continue to do so. Please check out the updated link at the bottom and let me know if there are any other things we could improve!

The Original (flawed) Build:
Build Spreadsheet (XLSX format) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105929959/TRIS_Cent-Ghoul.xlsx)

UPDATE:
Latest Build (many thanks to Urpriest for help) (https://www.dropbox.com/s/immh2z00jk8s6kb/TRIS_newest.xlsx)

***Remember this is to help a friend, so I haven't actually selected feats, ability score bonuses, nor have I chosen whether to go Fighter or Barbarian for character levels 9/10.

[holywhippet]

Try dropbox I'd say.

[Valtu]

Try dropbox I'd say.

Thanks, will do. Can't at work (dropbox domain just recently got blocked due to information/confidentiality stuff). Wanted to check first, in case that was frowned upon or there was a better/more-preferred option.

[NoACWarrior]

You could also use Google+ so that people without excel /ms office can edit.

[holywhippet]

You could also use Google+ so that people without excel /ms office can edit.

I thought about that, but I wasn't sure if it was for sharing the info or allowing others to edit it. I was thinking you wouldn't want to allow it as people should be making suggestions, not direct changes.

[Urpriest]

I thought about that, but I wasn't sure if it was for sharing the info or allowing others to edit it. I was thinking you wouldn't want to allow it as people should be making suggestions, not direct changes.

It's pretty easy to set documents to view-only.

Anyway, I'd advise using the Gravetouched Ghoul template from Libris Mortis, rather than the Ghoul/Ghast Savage Progression. Takes fewer levels, and it's clearer that you can apply it to a nonstandard base race, compared to Ghoul/Ghast where that's a bit unclear.

[Valtu]

Anyway, I'd advise using the Gravetouched Ghoul template from Libris Mortis, rather than the Ghoul/Ghast Savage Progression. Takes fewer levels, and it's clearer that you can apply it to a nonstandard base race, compared to Ghoul/Ghast where that's a bit unclear.

I didn't realize the templates were applicable as well. I'll definitely check that out. I may just do that, but for the sake of at least hoping I've learned something, did I at least do that build above correctly, or at least come somewhat close?

Thanks for the help and suggestions!

EDIT: Forgot to mention, the original post has been edited with a link to what I've got so far!

[Valtu]

Finally got a chance to look at the Gravetouched Ghoul template (had a laptop die recently and needing to still set up/recover things before I have everything I used to on the new one).

Looks good, but this whole process is still a bit confusing. The template only has level adjustment +2, but it does specify that a humanoid of more than 4HD becomes a Ghast instead. When I looked up both the Ghoul and Ghast in the MM, it didn't even list level adjustment for them. Seems like I'd just end up having to manually create a Ghast using your guide.

I'm not sure what this means I should do about the conversion. The Centaur progression from Savage Species takes 6 levels, 4 of which have hit-dice, so either way I think that'd put Tris in Ghast territory.

Any more help with the template side of things would be greatly appreciated, as would any comments on the build above in my original post. Even if this template is the way to go, I'd still like to have an idea of whether or not I'm going about this the right way, for future projects :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

Finally got a chance to look at the Gravetouched Ghoul template (had a laptop die recently and needing to still set up/recover things before I have everything I used to on the new one).

Looks good, but this whole process is still a bit confusing. The template only has level adjustment +2, but it does specify that a humanoid of more than 4HD becomes a Ghast instead. When I looked up both the Ghoul and Ghast in the MM, it didn't even list level adjustment for them. Seems like I'd just end up having to manually create a Ghast using your guide.

I'm not sure what this means I should do about the conversion. The Centaur progression from Savage Species takes 6 levels, 4 of which have hit-dice, so either way I think that'd put Tris in Ghast territory.

Any more help with the template side of things would be greatly appreciated, as would any comments on the build above in my original post. Even if this template is the way to go, I'd still like to have an idea of whether or not I'm going about this the right way, for future projects :smallsmile:

You're misinterpreting. A humanoid with more than 4HD infected with Ghoul Fever rises as a Ghast. However, Centaurs are monstrous humanoids, an entirely different creature type. You can't actually make a non-humanoid into a normal Ghoul or Ghast, so the way you were building the character doesn't work. However, as the fluff in the Gravetouched Ghoul template says, sometimes the death of a particularly wicked soul draws the attention of Doresain, King of Ghouls, who allows them to rise as a Gravetouched Ghoul independently of whether they normally could rise as a Ghoul or Ghast. Basically, Gravetouched Ghouls are the next higher form, touched by the King.

[Valtu]

I didn't realize a monstrous humanoid wouldn't work equally as well. Is there any specific reason? I thought that distinction was mostly for spell effects and things like that. Either way, I could see our DM being ok with it in spite of that detail (after all the original plan was to improvise something based on an actual zombie).

Well say I went with the gave touched ghoul anyway, then. Losing some extra natural armor and at least a bit of STR, but i suppose it's nice to get 6 levels back that can be used for a regular class.

Did I at least add everything right from what I did have, from a mechanical standpoint? I'll start working on the grave touched version and compare the two. Might not even need to bother with asking the DM about the ghast part at all.

Thanks, Urpriest!

[Urpriest]

I didn't realize a monstrous humanoid wouldn't work equally as well. Is there any specific reason? I thought that distinction was mostly for spell effects and things like that.

A supernatural disease is a "thing like that". Basically, Monstrous Humanoid and Humanoid happen to have a word in common, and that's the only connection between the two.



Either way, I could see our DM being ok with it in spite of that detail (after all the original plan was to improvise something based on an actual zombie).


Oh sure, but at that point, gravetouched ghoul is still better for you and your DM is just as likely to be ok with it.



Well say I went with the gave touched ghoul anyway, then. Losing some extra natural armor and at least a bit of STR, but i suppose it's nice to get 6 levels back that can be used for a regular class.

Did I at least add everything right from what I did have, from a mechanical standpoint? I'll start working on the grave touched version and compare the two. Might not even need to bother with asking the DM about the ghast part at all.

Thanks, Urpriest!

In terms of your questions: you get a boost to an ability score every four hit dice, not every four levels. Since the base Centaur already includes the ability boosts it gets for its own hit dice (as does the base Ghoul/Ghast), you only get these once you finish taking Centaur/Ghoul/Ghast hit dice. (So for example, if you had six racial hit dice, you'd get your first ability boost after two class levels, when you had eight total hit dice.) For you, if you go the Gravetouched route you'd get your first boost after four class levels when you have eight total hit dice.

You definitely roll your own abilities, because that's how the level adjustment system is balanced. Being surprised at that makes me worry that you don't know much about how monsters work, which means you should at least read my Monster Handbook (link in sig) before proceeding. Monsters are a big part of the game, and understanding them is key to doing anything more complicated than the most basic classes.

Undead racial hit dice are d12s. Some types of undead turn all your past hit dice into d12s, or all your future hit dice into d12s, but many don't, so in general you need to look at the undead in question. The Ghoul/Ghast don't, the Gravetouched Ghoul (as you can see in the example character) does.

You made a few mistakes in putting together that spreadsheet. Your BAB only goes up when your Savage Progression or class says it does, and currently you've got the wrong progression for both Centaur and Ghoul/Ghast. Your saves are also wrong for the same reason. In general, base saves and base BAB will only go up when you gain hit dice (if that isn't obvious to you, definitely read my Monster Handbook). The same is true with skills, though that's more of an issue with typos. You also seem to be missing the base save bonuses from your first level of Ghoul/Ghast, but that's probably the same issue as above.

More generally, you're taking a lot of levels of Fighter on this build. Are you going for a long feat tree? In general, characters aren't supposed to take Fighter levels unless they need the feats, as otherwise there are other classes that are meant to develop your concept more.

[Valtu]

A supernatural disease is a "thing like that". Basically, Monstrous Humanoid and Humanoid happen to have a word in common, and that's the only connection between the two.



Oh sure, but at that point, gravetouched ghoul is still better for you and your DM is just as likely to be ok with it.



In terms of your questions: you get a boost to an ability score every four hit dice, not every four levels. Since the base Centaur already includes the ability boosts it gets for its own hit dice (as does the base Ghoul/Ghast), you only get these once you finish taking Centaur/Ghoul/Ghast hit dice. (So for example, if you had six racial hit dice, you'd get your first ability boost after two class levels, when you had eight total hit dice.) For you, if you go the Gravetouched route you'd get your first boost after four class levels when you have eight total hit dice.

You definitely roll your own abilities, because that's how the level adjustment system is balanced. Being surprised at that makes me worry that you don't know much about how monsters work, which means you should at least read my Monster Handbook (link in sig) before proceeding. Monsters are a big part of the game, and understanding them is key to doing anything more complicated than the most basic classes.

Undead racial hit dice are d12s. Some types of undead turn all your past hit dice into d12s, or all your future hit dice into d12s, but many don't, so in general you need to look at the undead in question. The Ghoul/Ghast don't, the Gravetouched Ghoul (as you can see in the example character) does.

You made a few mistakes in putting together that spreadsheet. Your BAB only goes up when your Savage Progression or class says it does, and currently you've got the wrong progression for both Centaur and Ghoul/Ghast. Your saves are also wrong for the same reason. In general, base saves and base BAB will only go up when you gain hit dice (if that isn't obvious to you, definitely read my Monster Handbook). The same is true with skills, though that's more of an issue with typos. You also seem to be missing the base save bonuses from your first level of Ghoul/Ghast, but that's probably the same issue as above.

More generally, you're taking a lot of levels of Fighter on this build. Are you going for a long feat tree? In general, characters aren't supposed to take Fighter levels unless they need the feats, as otherwise there are other classes that are meant to develop your concept more.

Thanks for the thorough response. I'll definitely give everything another look as far as typos go. I'm sure there are definitely a few.

I hadn't realized the thing about getting ability increases every 4 hit-dice rather than levels. That's definitely important. But you say those are always built-in to the monster/undead class progressions already? So going off of the build-in-progress I already posted (though I'm revising it to use the Gravetouched template at the moment), that would mean no ability increase until level 18? Or if ability increases still happen, but only every 4 hit-dice, then it'd be one at level 6, 14, and then 18.

I definitely missed a few things in your Monstrous Handbook. I've read through it a little but it's easy to miss things going back and forth between different source books, the forum, etc. Monsters are a little tough to get the hang of, but some things are definitely starting to click.

One thing I happened to notice reading Libris Mortis moments ago, however, was that it seems like monstrous humanoids can qualify for undead classes after all, so that's good. The example Ghoul/Ghast they give at the beginning of the chapter is a Minotaur:

Example: A character begins play using the minotaur monster
class from Savage Species. The character advances to 3rd level as
a minotaur and then multiclasses into the ghoul/ghast undead
monster class.

Either way though, the more I think about it, I think you're right about taking the Gravetouched Ghoul template instead. My friend's goal is to be a brute-ish fighter who is undead and feeds on the living. The major differences between the undead types don't matter much, but something feral and destructive is definitely preferred, so I think this will do quite well.

As for the Fighter levels, that wasn't my first choice either. Our party is very, very favored toward Fighters, though, so that was the default. I think at least until we come up with another idea we might replace those with War Hulk. It's not necessarily much of a step-up from Fighter in terms of complexity or anything, but that's part of the appeal.

She also wants the character to be somewhat "dumb" as her first version from the older campaign had heavy intelligence penalties. I personally do think the Great/Mighty/Massive Swing abilities are pretty cool though, and I like the idea that instead of taking iteratives that get progressively lower to-hit bonuses, you just hit everything at once with the same attack roll. Either way though, this itself isn't too important at the moment. It's getting past the Monster stuff.

Thanks again for the thoroughness, definitely helpful stuff!

[Urpriest]

Thanks for the thorough response. I'll definitely give everything another look as far as typos go. I'm sure there are definitely a few.

I hadn't realized the thing about getting ability increases every 4 hit-dice rather than levels. That's definitely important. But you say those are always built-in to the monster/undead class progressions already? So going off of the build-in-progress I already posted (though I'm revising it to use the Gravetouched template at the moment), that would mean no ability increase until level 18? Or if ability increases still happen, but only every 4 hit-dice, then it'd be one at level 6, 14, and then 18.

It's the former, yeah. That build wouldn't have an ability increase until ECL 18, or 12 total Hit Dice. (As an aside, it's always a good idea to specify whether you mean ECL or Hit Dice when you say level. Most of the time when the game refers to level it means Character Level, which is a synonym for total Hit Dice. ECL is only used for calculating XP and wealth and things related to that.)


I definitely missed a few things in your Monstrous Handbook. I've read through it a little but it's easy to miss things going back and forth between different source books, the forum, etc. Monsters are a little tough to get the hang of, but some things are definitely starting to click.

One thing I happened to notice reading Libris Mortis moments ago, however, was that it seems like monstrous humanoids can qualify for undead classes after all, so that's good. The example Ghoul/Ghast they give at the beginning of the chapter is a Minotaur:

That's true. I should amend my statement to say that, while normally you can't contract Ghoul Fever if you're not a Humanoid, the monster class in Libris Mortis is designed so that others can take it. That said, yeah, Gravetouched is way better.



Either way though, the more I think about it, I think you're right about taking the Gravetouched Ghoul template instead. My friend's goal is to be a brute-ish fighter who is undead and feeds on the living. The major differences between the undead types don't matter much, but something feral and destructive is definitely preferred, so I think this will do quite well.

As for the Fighter levels, that wasn't my first choice either. Our party is very, very favored toward Fighters, though, so that was the default. I think at least until we come up with another idea we might replace those with War Hulk. It's not necessarily much of a step-up from Fighter in terms of complexity or anything, but that's part of the appeal.

She also wants the character to be somewhat "dumb" as her first version from the older campaign had heavy intelligence penalties. I personally do think the Great/Mighty/Massive Swing abilities are pretty cool though, and I like the idea that instead of taking iteratives that get progressively lower to-hit bonuses, you just hit everything at once with the same attack roll. Either way though, this itself isn't too important at the moment. It's getting past the Monster stuff.

Thanks again for the thoroughness, definitely helpful stuff!

Yeah, War Hulk is a much better class for this character than Fighter. Fighter is a really complicated class, with all those feats and combat maneuvers. War Hulk by contrast is pretty simple: throw on a level of Barbarian or the like to qualify and you're good.

[Valtu]

Ok, nice. Well, kind of a bummer to lose more feats. That may make the first class level or two before War Hulk be Fighter, (player wants as many feats as possible), although the Barbarian's Rage feature would also fit well with this concept.

Improved Toughness is specifically desired, since hitpoints might be a tad low from having no CON modifier, despite the d12 hit-dice.

Also, to qualify for War Hulk, you must have Cleave, which itself requires Power Attack. Then there's Centaur Trample, which she wants as well.

I thought Leap Attack sounded like it'd be nice to have too, since the skills are more limited based on not being able to rank in any INT/CHA/WIS based skills without wasting those points. That'd be a good reason to put more ranks in Jump after Intimidate is maxed out. Also, just imagine a terrifying, undead horse-person leaping onto someone and crushing them with their hooves :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Ok, nice. Well, kind of a bummer to lose more feats. That may make the first class level or two before War Hulk be Fighter, (player wants as many feats as possible), although the Barbarian's Rage feature would also fit well with this concept.

Improved Toughness is specifically desired, since hitpoints might be a tad low from having no CON modifier, despite the d12 hit-dice.

Also, to qualify for War Hulk, you must have Cleave, which itself requires Power Attack. Then there's Centaur Trample, which she wants as well.

I thought Leap Attack sounded like it'd be nice to have too, since the skills are more limited based on not being able to rank in any INT/CHA/WIS based skills without wasting those points. That'd be a good reason to put more ranks in Jump after Intimidate is maxed out. Also, just imagine a terrifying, undead horse-person leaping onto someone and crushing them with their hooves :smallbiggrin:

If the player legitimately wants lots of feats then Fighter is fine, I was merely saying that if feats aren't needed then Fighter is unnecessary. Basically, take enough levels of Fighter to fit in all the feats you want, then don't take any more.

That said, with Gravetouched Ghoul you'll have 14 total hit dice, so five feats. Power Attack, Cleave, Leap Attack, Centaur Trample, and Improved Toughness make five. If you want more feats you can trade out Improved Toughness, since 14 more hp is probably not going to be enough to save you most of the time. The Barbarian level could also give the pounce ability via Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion, making your Leap Attacks a thing to be feared.

[Valtu]

I almost forgot about Lion Totem Barbarian. Nice! I actually had just come across that and figured I'd use it whenever I got around to making a melee-focused build.

I think I'm missing something here. . . why 14HD for a Gravetouched Ghoul?

There are 6 levels required to finish the Centaur progression, and only 4 of them include hit-dice. All I see for Gravetouched Ghoul is LA+2. So that's just 2 levels right? No hit-dice, no BAB, saves, etc. Just some special abilities and also score increases.

So after Centaur and the Gravetouched Ghoul template, I should be at ECL 8 but still only have 4HD, right? I think I'm definitely missing something.

Oh were you talking about the original build? That one consisted of 8 levels for Ghoul/Ghast, so it came out to 14 ECL by the end, but still a lot of those didn't have hit-dice increases. It was only 12 or so, I think.

[Urpriest]

I almost forgot about Lion Totem Barbarian. Nice! I actually had just come across that and figured I'd use it whenever I got around to making a melee-focused build.

I think I'm missing something here. . . why 14HD for a Gravetouched Ghoul?

There are 6 levels required to finish the Centaur progression, and only 4 of them include hit-dice. All I see for Gravetouched Ghoul is LA+2. So that's just 2 levels right? No hit-dice, no BAB, saves, etc. Just some special abilities and also score increases.

So after Centaur and the Gravetouched Ghoul template, I should be at ECL 8 but still only have 4HD, right? I think I'm definitely missing something.

Oh were you talking about the original build? That one consisted of 8 levels for Ghoul/Ghast, so it came out to 14 ECL by the end, but still a lot of those didn't have hit-dice increases. It was only 12 or so, I think.

You're starting at ECL 18, right? So the Centaur gives you 6 ECL and 4HD, the Gravetouched Ghoul gives you 2 ECL and no HD, and which leaves the remaining 10 ECL to be filled with class levels like Barbarian and War Hulk, for a total of 14 HD.

[Valtu]

Oh good, hahaha. My mistake. I read that as once I'd reached Gravetouched Ghoul I should have 14 HD already. Way off. Ok, we are definitely on the same page now.

I just had a thought about Barbarian/Pounce. IIRC, all it does (not that I'm belittling this awesome feature) is give you full attack after a charge, right?

So if we go the War Hulk Route, we may not even have enough BAB to get iteratives and it won't matter much. Not sure though, I still have played a straight caster and one gish build so far, so I'm still figuring out this whole melee thing :smallredface:

[Urpriest]

Oh good, hahaha. My mistake. I read that as once I'd reached Gravetouched Ghoul I should have 14 HD already. Way off. Ok, we are definitely on the same page now.

I just had a thought about Barbarian/Pounce. IIRC, all it does (not that I'm belittling this awesome feature) is give you full attack after a charge, right?

So if we go the War Hulk Route, we may not even have enough BAB to get iteratives and it won't matter much. Not sure though, I still have played a straight caster and one gish build so far, so I'm still figuring out this whole melee thing :smallredface:

You won't have any extra iteratives, but you'll still have two hooves, two claws, and a bite. Missing out on those (especially given your high Str) won't be pleasant.

[Valtu]

Oh, that's right, and with Multiattack (bonus feat from Gravetouched Ghoul template) there will only be a -2 penalty, unless Improved Multiattack is also taken.

[Valtu]

So with ECL 8 after Centaur and GtGhoul template, does ECL 9 start normal feat progression?

In Savage Species, it says Centaurs get a feat at 1st and 4th levels, then feats are gained normally after level 6 "according to character level" (when the class ends anyway). Does this mean level 9, since that's it's ECL?

Sorry for all the questions. Monster races are a lot of work! Great practice though. After this I feel like I'll be able to figure out most anything haha.

[Urpriest]

So with ECL 8 after Centaur and GtGhoul template, does ECL 9 start normal feat progression?

In Savage Species, it says Centaurs get a feat at 1st and 4th levels, then feats are gained normally after level 6 "according to character level" (when the class ends anyway). Does this mean level 9, since that's it's ECL?

No, it means Character Level. Character Level is a synonym for Total Hit Dice.

If you look at the progression, you'll see that the Centaur gets feats when it has 1HD and 3HD. So you pick up your next feat when you have 6HD, so Character Level 6, or ECL 10.

[Valtu]

Thanks, that's easy to get confused with ECL (and probably a bit of wishful thinking that doesn't help matters :smalltongue:)

Anyway, just updated the original post with a link to the build. I'll provide it here as well:

Centaur/Gravetouched Ghoul/either Fighter or Barbarian/War Hulk (https://www.dropbox.com/s/immh2z00jk8s6kb/TRIS_newest.xlsx)

[Valtu]

Once the build is finished, or really however it turns out, the most apparent weaknesses seem to be that neither the AC norbthe hitpoints will be all that great. What is the best method fir compensating? I get the feeling that upping AC through an amulet of natural armor or something might help to an extent, but it seems like whatever a character of this level is up against will be able to hit most anything, so would it be more worth it to invest in items that grant a miss chance?

Any recommendations on how to raise HP for an undead creature? Con boosting items are obviously out :P

[Urpriest]

Thanks, that's easy to get confused with ECL (and probably a bit of wishful thinking that doesn't help matters :smalltongue:)

Anyway, just updated the original post with a link to the build. I'll provide it here as well:

Centaur/Gravetouched Ghoul/either Fighter or Barbarian/War Hulk (https://www.dropbox.com/s/immh2z00jk8s6kb/TRIS_newest.xlsx)

Looks fine. I still think you mixed up levels 2 and 3 of Centaur, but otherwise fine.


Once the build is finished, or really however it turns out, the most apparent weaknesses seem to be that neither the AC norbthe hitpoints will be all that great. What is the best method fir compensating? I get the feeling that upping AC through an amulet of natural armor or something might help to an extent, but it seems like whatever a character of this level is up against will be able to hit most anything, so would it be more worth it to invest in items that grant a miss chance?

Any recommendations on how to raise HP for an undead creature? Con boosting items are obviously out :P

Miss chances are nice. Smoking on a Necklace of Natural Attacks or armor spikes, that sort of thing.

AC should be fine, though. You've got a great Dex, some bonus natural armor, and full armor proficiency up to Medium at least. Remember, AC mostly comes from wealth.

HP are where you're going to suffer. There are some tricks to sling hp on undead, but they're based on what essentially amounts to backstory abuse. If you were created in a Desecrated area by a Dread Necromancer with the Corpsecrafter feat, that's 6 extra hp per HD right there. The Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat lets you add Int where you would have added Con, but has kind of odd fluff.

[Valtu]

Looks fine. I still think you mixed up levels 2 and 3 of Centaur, but otherwise fine.

Fixed in my local copy of the file. Not worth reposting just for that, but thanks. I looked and all the stats themselves seemed ok, I just added the 2nd hit-die at level 3 instead of 2.



Miss chances are nice. Smoking on a Necklace of Natural Attacks or armor spikes, that sort of thing.

AC should be fine, though. You've got a great Dex, some bonus natural armor, and full armor proficiency up to Medium at least. Remember, AC mostly comes from wealth.

HP are where you're going to suffer. There are some tricks to sling hp on undead, but they're based on what essentially amounts to backstory abuse. If you were created in a Desecrated area by a Dread Necromancer with the Corpsecrafter feat, that's 6 extra hp per HD right there. The Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat lets you add Int where you would have added Con, but has kind of odd fluff.

I'll definitely see if our DM will go for the Desecrated/Corpsecrafter combo. He might.

As for AC, the armor proficiency is nice, but don't all those armors severely limit DEX bonuses? Thinking it might be worth it to go unarmored (or very lightly armored). We'll have 100K to out fit our characters and non-humanoid armor is a bit more expensive, or so I've heard.

[Valtu]

Moving last question to its own thread as to not bloat this one. The build is done except for a few small details..