Top 10 Worst PrCs

[Vhaidara]

I'm curious what opinions are on this. And I'm not counting dysfunctions like Dragon Disciple that are particularly bad for disqualifying you upon finishing.

My list would include all mundane (no casting progression) DMG PrCs.

1. Duelist
2. Dragon Disciple
3. Arcane Archer
4. Dwarven Defender

[(Un)Inspired]

I am in almost 100% agreement with what you've got do far.

I'd like to add Shining blade of Hepatitis

[Thrice Dead Cat]

For a caster, Dragon Disciple is terrible. However, for someone like a barbarian with a small sorcerer or bard dip, it's pretty dang effective at getting nonmagical flight and stat bonuses. Arcane Archer is similarly useful for at least two levels for getting things like AMF onto an enemy.

[Telonius]

Hierophant is pretty terrible. Green Star Adept, too. Risen Martyr's not bad, but the capstone is pretty harsh.

[Dr. Cliché]

Could you perhaps say for each PrC what makes them so bad?

[NoACWarrior]

I personally would like to add Incarnum Blade.

A fighter who gets small bonuses to certain situations, but nothing else.
I'd take fighter and use a few feats to get a real soulmeld.

[Ansem]

I've had quite a good time with my Dwarven Defender/Barbarian.

[Vhaidara]

Well, Duelist currently has a thread discussing its badness.

Dragon Disciple has a little potential for people with 1 level of Sorc, but is still a bit lackluster

Dwarven Defender tries to tank with no way of pulling aggro

Arcane Archer is even worse than Dragon Disciple, since it requires 3rd level spells but has no casting progression.

[(Un)Inspired]

Shining blade of heironeous is bad because it completely cripples your caster progression in exchange for terrible class features that could be replicated by cheep magic items and are nullified by really basic resistances.

[HammeredWharf]

Dragon Magazine has some real gems. My favorite is the Prairie Runner from 321. It's a five level PRC that lets you run for a really long time. Its capstone is a 1/d Haste at CL5. Yes, gentlemen, it's as bad as it sounds.

[Karnith]

Really, most of the half-casting PrCs are terrible, and the ones that aren't are generally only good for a single level (Mindbender, Spellsword, etc.).

I'd also like to nominate Reaping Mauler (the grappling PrC that makes you bad at grappling; no, I don't think that Leviathan Hunter redeems it), Rage Mage (as it turns out, no, two extremely un-synergistic classes don't mesh well together), True Necromancer/Yathrinshee (for being terrible, terrible theurge classes; no, I don't think that CL-boosting shenanigans don't redeem them), and the Epic Mystic Theurge (for being worse than just alternating Cleric and Wizard levels).

[Vhaidara]

I've had quite a good time with my Dwarven Defender/Barbarian.

Which alignment requirement got dropped?

[Metahuman1]

The Justicar. A class were everything worth while can be easily replicated with a couple of feats and a magic item, or just a good too hit boost.

[Kazudo]

Stonelord.

Iron Chef in the Playground has actually done some pretty rotten eggs before.

[nedz]

Shin of Heironeous is probably the worst.

Order of the Bow Idiot is fairly poor. Terrible feat pre-reqs, which the principle class feature ignores, poor skills for a Rangery type class and a less than effecting class feature which is packaged as a Standard Action — no Shot on the Run for you.

[Svata]

As with everyone else, the Shining Baldness of Higglespratch gets a mention.

[Karnith]

Oh, can I nominate Runescarred Berserker, for being impossible to qualify for?

[Honest Tiefling]

If campaign specific ones can be mentioned, I think I recall Harper Scout being quite strange in that the abilities were either bizarre, useless or both.

[(Un)Inspired]

Oh, can I nominate Runescarred Berserker, for being impossible to qualify for?

That can't possibly make it the worst. Just think, if it was impossible to qualify for duelist then it would be a much better prestige class.

[PsyBomb]

Incarnum Blade has a brother in suck within MoI, the Witchborn Binder. Lose out on four Meldshaper levels over the course of a class that grants no Binds, only one good save, medium BAB, "anti-caster" features that are easy to counter with Concentration and Caster Level checks, and one doozy of a class feature that thinks a bit of extra gold each level can make up for it. Oh, and qualifying for it requires 14 skill ranks invested and two feats encouraging a Ranger dip... which further weakens a couple of the abilities that depend on meldshaper level... which you already lose four of...

:mad:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's the "Down two or more tiers" list (a few conditional ones removed):
Acolyte of the skin CA
Apostle of Peace BoED
Arcane Archer DMG
Bereft ToM
Blighter CD
Bonded Summoner Mini
Brimstone Speaker ToM
Defiant PlH
Dirgesinger LM
Duelist DMG
Entropomancer CD
Evangelist CD
Eye of Lolth DotU
Forest Master F&P
Green Star Adept CA
Incarnum Blade MoI
Lifedrinker BoVD
Master of the Unseen Hand CW
Mindspy CW
Ollam CAdv
Reaping Mauler CW
Solar Channeler Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Talon of Tiamat Drc
True Necromancer LM
Wavekeeper Stormwrack
Witchborn Binder MoI
Wonderworker BoED
Yathrinshee PGtF

[Immabozo]

That can't possibly make it the worst. Just think, if it was impossible to qualify for duelist then it would be a much better prestige class.

The hallmark of an utter fail

[Story]

What about that one Prc with so many requirements that it's impossible to complete pre epic unless you rule that Divine Oracle counts as evasion?

Also Green Star Adept is pretty notable. And Alienist.

[Karnith]

What about that one Prc with so many requirements that it's impossible to complete pre epic unless you rule that Divine Oracle counts as evasion?
You mean Magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2)? I think you could do it pre-epic with Spelldancer, though all those feats would make it tough.

[CyberThread]

Oh, can I nominate Runescarred Berserker, for being impossible to qualify for?



Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Craft (scarring) 5 ranks , Intimidate 5 ranks , Sense Motive 2 ranks
Feats: Iron Will , Survivor
Feats: At least one berserker lodge feat from Chapter 3: Regions and Feats.
Special: The character must be able to rage at least once per day, as the barbarian class ability, and must be a member of a berserker lodge. (For more information about berserker lodges, see Chapter 10: Rashemen.) Also, the character must qualify to select regional feats from Rashemen (Rashemen is his home region, or he has 2 ranks in Knowledge [local— Rashemen]).



It takes a bit of tie due to the +7 bab, but with a human, human extra feat gets you tiger which is a light weapon pounce, or ice troll, which is extra AC when you rage.


The +2 skill points you get with humans, easily gets you those sense motive and craft skills. An the PRC is huge boost for a barbarian once you get in , but with the 7 bab, it opens you up for dumping DR and trap sense, for two level dip of a warblade or another barbarian friendly prc.

[The Viscount]

Cipher Adept is the worst PrC I've had to work with in Iron Chef, and I mean it. It's like some sort of terrible bargain bin monk that requires 3 feats to enter.

Bladesinger is also really quite awful. Harsh requirements mean you are going to take a long time to enter, and full BA in no way makes up for half casting. It's basically the bad PrC prototype of duskblade.

[Karnith]

Stuff
When I said that it's impossible to qualify for, I meant it literally; I am not aware of a RAW way to meet the prereqs.The class requires a regional feat not available to characters from Rashemen, and requires that the character be able to select regional feats from Rashemen. Per the 3.5 update to regional feats, this is no longer possible.

In 3.0, Survivor (a pre-req for Runescarred Berserker) was a regional feat for Rashemen, which is why it worked then for characters from Rashemen. Alternately, also using 3.0 rules for regional feats, any character could have put 2 ranks in the appropriate Knowledge (Local) skill to be able to select feats from a given region, and hence qualified for that part of Runescarred Berserker. But the 3.5 update made rules regarding regional feats go from silly to sillier, so neither of those work anymore, and you can't get into the class now as-written.

[NoACWarrior]

Shadow Smith (ToM), although the Prereqs arn't bad, what good are the abilities at the higher levels it is played at! You get mysteries, but they are arcane based and you DON'T get ASF ignorance past light armor. You get the ability to make things out of shadow, weapons what not, but get a single +5 bonus to 1 weapon or multiple +1 bonuses (all by 15th level). Why would a fighter type character limit himself / herself to light armor, poor fort saves, only a +5 bonus to armor / weapons, and spells which only can be cast 1/day!

[Vhaidara]

When I said that it's impossible to qualify for, I meant it literally; by RAW a character cannot qualify for it. The class requires a regional feat not available to characters from Rashemen, and requires that the character be able to select regional feats from Rashemen. Per the 3.5 update to regional feats, this is no longer possible.

In 3.0, Survivor (a pre-req for Runescarred Berserker) was a regional feat for Rashemen, which is why it worked then for characters from Rashemen. Alternately, also using 3.0 rules for regional feats, any character could have put 2 ranks in the appropriate Knowledge (Local) skill to be able to select feats from a given region, and hence qualified for that part of Runescarred Berserker. But the 3.5 update made rules regarding regional feats go from silly to sillier, so neither of those work anymore, and you can't get into the class now as-written.

Disqualified. I count this as a dysfunction, which I specifically said wasn't a valid reason.

[CyberThread]

When I said that it's impossible to qualify for, I meant it literally; I am not aware of a RAW way to meet the prereqs.The class requires a regional feat not available to characters from Rashemen, and requires that the character be able to select regional feats from Rashemen. Per the 3.5 update to regional feats, this is no longer possible.

In 3.0, Survivor (a pre-req for Runescarred Berserker) was a regional feat for Rashemen, which is why it worked then for characters from Rashemen. Alternately, also using 3.0 rules for regional feats, any character could have put 2 ranks in the appropriate Knowledge (Local) skill to be able to select feats from a given region, and hence qualified for that part of Runescarred Berserker. But the 3.5 update made rules regarding regional feats go from silly to sillier, so neither of those work anymore, and you can't get into the class now as-written.


IF a feat no longer exists, then according to the 3.5 rules, the requirement is removed also.

[A Tad Insane]

Oh dear lawdy! Don't reminde me about the acolyte of the skin! "Hey, I should literally attach a super powerful demon to my skin that gives me the incredible power of half caster progression!" it's just so bad, yet the fluff is so freaking metal I want to flay the skin of who ever gave it half progression! :smallfurious:

[The Viscount]

How could I forget Solar Channeler. Now that's a terrible class. It turns you into a solar if by solar you mean "guy with a sword who can fly." It makes you give up all your class features (including casting, if any), in exchange for 3 attacks at middlingly high bonuses with normal damage. I cannot think of a class that can enter this and would not be better served just using their own spells or class features.

[Karnith]

IF a feat no longer exists, then according to the 3.5 rules, the requirement is removed also.
It's not that the feat no longer exists, it's that it's no longer a regional feat for Rashemen. The PrC therefore requires you to be able to select regional feats for two separate regions, which isn't possible (to the best of my knowledge) in 3.5.

Regardless, Runescarred Berserker has been disqualified because it's problem is a dysfunction, not actual bad class design, so the issue is kinda moot.

[Vertharrad]

When I said that it's impossible to qualify for, I meant it literally; I am not aware of a RAW way to meet the prereqs.The class requires a regional feat not available to characters from Rashemen, and requires that the character be able to select regional feats from Rashemen. Per the 3.5 update to regional feats, this is no longer possible.

In 3.0, Survivor (a pre-req for Runescarred Berserker) was a regional feat for Rashemen, which is why it worked then for characters from Rashemen. Alternately, also using 3.0 rules for regional feats, any character could have put 2 ranks in the appropriate Knowledge (Local) skill to be able to select feats from a given region, and hence qualified for that part of Runescarred Berserker. But the 3.5 update made rules regarding regional feats go from silly to sillier, so neither of those work anymore, and you can't get into the class now as-written.

Be from Rashemen...

[Karnith]

Be from Rashemen...
You need to be able to select a regional feat from Rashemen, and also possess a regional feat not available to characters from Rashemen. Since a character can only have one region to select regional feats from in 3.5 (whereas in 3.0 you could use Knowledge (Local) to qualify for more than one), it is no longer possible to meet the requirements. It worked in 3.0 because Survivor was a Rashemen regional feat, but Survivor stopped being a Rashemen regional feat in 3.5.

[NoACWarrior]

You need to be able to select a regional feat from Rashemen, and possess a regional feat not available to characters from Rashemen. Since a character can only have one region to select regional feats from in 3.5 (whereas in 3.0 you could use Knowledge (Local) to qualify for more than one), it is no longer possible to meet the requirements.

Unless you lived in Rashemen and went to grammar school in another place. Thereby you could register to vote in both districts so long as the city registrar wasn't checking. Heck you now are a citizen of both regions now and can select a regional feat for each.


But all kidding aside, is it possible to take one of those two body races (I forgot what they were called) separate them by force to live with their primary residence in two different areas thus allowing the one entity to qualify for both feats? Its rather unwieldy, I know, but it could again be possible to play this interesting class.

[Socksy]

Which alignment requirement got dropped?

They could be a Maenad.
Oh, wait. DWARVEN defender. I'm an idiot.

A maenad who was raised by dwarves!

[CyberThread]

I shout my dwarven gods pride.....

[Zaq]

Many of the PrCs from Miniatures Handbook are legendarily bad. Tactical Soldier. That was a really, really hard Iron Chef, guys. Dragon Samurai is also astoundingly mediocre. I dunno if it's the WORST, but it's pretty darn bad.

As is typical, I do have to toss in a mention to some ToM goodies (or not-so-goodies). Bereft is a 5 level long PrC that you can't enter before level 11, but most of its abilities (including save DCs) are based on class level. Whoops. (The abilities would be mediocre if you could even get to them NORMALLY, but since you can't . . .) Brimstone Speaker is 6/10 divine progression that gives you a weak-ass breath weapon and a weak summon a couple times per day. And, y'know, requires investment in Truenaming. It doesn't even serve its own fluff.

I remember thinking about entering the Iron Chef for Initiate of Pistis Sophia, then reading the class and just thinking "nnnnnope."

[(Un)Inspired]

They could be a Maenad.
Oh, wait. DWARVEN defender. I'm an idiot.

A maenad who was raised by dwarves!

They call them Dwafnads

[TheGeckoKing]

You need to be able to select a regional feat from Rashemen, and also possess a regional feat not available to characters from Rashemen. Since a character can only have one region to select regional feats from in 3.5 (whereas in 3.0 you could use Knowledge (Local) to qualify for more than one), it is no longer possible to meet the requirements. It worked in 3.0 because Survivor was a Rashemen regional feat, but Survivor stopped being a Rashemen regional feat in 3.5.

There is a way around it if your DM approves Regional Backgrounds (Champions of Valor). If you choose the Circle Born background then that becomes your region for the sake of regional feats and Survivor is included in the list for your "region". Luckily, someone dropped the ball and forgot to give the Berserker Lodge feats the [Regional] tag, so you can take those too if you're Rashemi, because you still count as a native of your region for normal feats.

I will say that the fact you need to be raised by Druids on top of the specific region just to cast some nice gish spells is just obnoxious.

[RedMage125]

I'm glad someone mentioned Green Star Adept, it's the very first thing that came ot my mind when I saw this thread.

I second the note on whoever said that it sucks that Acolyte of the SKin is so bad, because the fluff for the PrC is so freaking metal.

I'd also like to point out that in a core-only game (which I've played in before), the dwarven defender isn't that horrible. Dragon Disciple still is, though.

Surprised no one's mentioned the PrCs in the BoVD. The Warrior of Darkness or whatever was pretty bad. And I forget between Diabolist and Demonologist, but I know one was god-awful.

[JaronK]

Some of the mentioned PrCs are workable under specific circumstances (Heirophant is solid in Gestalt).

Shining Blade of Heironeous, evidently, is only good for one thing: being mentioned in threads like this. Truly, it is the best at being the worst.

JaronK

[VoxRationis]

Green Star Adept is bad for a casting class, true, but you only need one spellcasting level to get it, so I think of its poor casting progression as more of a boost for what is really a martial PrC... The BAB and spell progression are both equal to a 1:1 wizard/whatever gish... Are you referring to its expensive requirements for leveling up? Because I got the impression that people didn't really care about mere GP on this forum. It does require that you work out the prestige class with the DM. Is that why you don't like it? Because it requires actually working with your DM to make it fit into the campaign rather than just showing up one day with a pile of abilities?
I do see that the d8 Hit die isn't good, but again, that's the average of the fighter and wizard's hit dice (actually above average if you want to be technical; spot-on for the average of wizard and barbarian or wizard and warblade). The natural armor bonus isn't great, but it's better than nothing, and IIRC, amulets of natural armor enhance natural armor bonuses, so they stack, right? You lose Dexterity, which isn't great, but only 3 points over 10 levels; barely enough to count for most things. Your caster level is actually better than a mage/fighter multiclass or even a lot of gish type builds, even though your spells/day aren't. Plus you get immortality, immunity to a whole mess of attack types, and the ability to heal yourself as an arcane caster without shenanigans as a capstone. The natural attack isn't worth anything, but no one said you had to use it, so it's really a free ability, and you get DR/adamantine with each level up; not a ton, but a reasonable amount and more than a barbarian does (although barbarians have /- type DR).
So what's that bad about it? It's not the best, and it requires that the campaign support it, but I've seen worse.

[Scarey Nerd]

Am I alone in thinking that Duelist is kind of OK as a 3 level dip for a Swashbuckler going for the three musketeers vibe?

[Vhaidara]

Yes, because Swashbuckler is designed to wear light armor and is better at being a duelist than the Duelist. So just keep going with Swashbuckler.

[(Un)Inspired]

Am I alone in thinking that Duelist is kind of OK as a 3 level dip for a Swashbuckler going for the three musketeers vibe?

You meant 3 levels of rogue right? 3 levels of rogue is a great dip for a swashbuckler followed by darring outlaw.

[Shining Wrath]

Some of the mentioned PrCs are workable under specific circumstances (Heirophant is solid in Gestalt).

Shining Blade of Heironeous, evidently, is only good for one thing: being mentioned in threads like this. Truly, it is the best at being the worst.

JaronK

Wait - as a capstone, at level 9, you gain the ability to give your weapon a +4 modifier for a few rounds? That's it?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Has anyone mentioned Blighter? I'm gonna mention Blighter. You know, the Ur Priest of Druids. Except, taking a steaming pile on everything good about Druids and making casting nearly impossible to do. Seriously, an acre of forest per level per day just to prep spells?! Where are you finding these vast expanses of forest that no one is stopping you from burning them down?

[Southern Cross]

Can we include prestige classes from Arcana Evolved? Because if we can, i would like to nominate the Dragon Kith PrC. It's a ten-level prestige class with the Dragon Magic ceremonial feat as a prerequisite, but only has four levels of caster progression.

[VoxRationis]

Has anyone mentioned Blighter? I'm gonna mention Blighter. You know, the Ur Priest of Druids. Except, taking a steaming pile on everything good about Druids and making casting nearly impossible to do. Seriously, an acre of forest per level per day just to prep spells?! Where are you finding these vast expanses of forest that no one is stopping you from burning them down?
It takes you a standard action in the morning to do that forest-blighting, hardly a terrible inconvenience, and for much of history, there's been a lot of forest with not a lot of people in it per unit area to stop you. People can be lost for weeks in small areas of forest, when people with helicopters and electronics are looking for them; if you're wanting to do this kind of crap, you can get away with it for a time.
In any case, I'm pretty sure the blighter was meant as a class for NPC villains.

[Divayth Fyr]

Wait - as a capstone, at level 9, you gain the ability to give your weapon a +4 modifier for a few rounds? That's it?
No, the capstone is getting that +1 caster level ;) But yeah, all the class does is to allow you to emulate some weapon properties a few times/day. It wouldn't be that interesting (at least with half caster progression) if those were permanent (as long as you hold your weapon, brilliant energy getting an option to turn it off), but as it is, the whole thing is just sad.

[nedz]

Am I alone in thinking that Duelist is kind of OK as a 3 level dip for a Swashbuckler going for the three musketeers vibe?


Yes, because Swashbuckler is designed to wear light armor and is better at being a duelist than the Duelist. So just keep going with Swashbuckler.

But Swashbuckler itself is only good as a 3 level dip :smallconfused:

[Shining Wrath]

No, the capstone is getting that +1 caster level ;) But yeah, all the class does is to allow you to emulate some weapon properties a few times/day. It wouldn't be that interesting (at least with half caster progression) if those were permanent (as long as you hold your weapon, brilliant energy getting an option to turn it off), but as it is, the whole thing is just sad.

Somewhere lurking in the back of my head is a Featonomics thread about what price you would pay to gain the equivalent of a feat (or, in this case, class feature) on your equipment.

For example, Warning is a +1 enhancement and is slightly better than Improved Initiative, but II is always on but Warning only works if you are holding the weapon. So approximately speaking, II is equal to a +1 weapon enhancement or 6000 GP.

Alertness, OTOH, can be bought for about 600 GP IIRC (AFB).

Anyway, if you offered me the Shining Blade's ability on my weapon, I'd be willing to pay the equivalent of a +1 for it. Which is to say, 9 levels of a half spell progression class is worth maybe one decent feat.

That's VERY sad.

[(Un)Inspired]

But Swashbuckler itself is only good as a 3 level dip :smallconfused:

Yes but duelist was designed as a 0 level dip.

[Seerow]

But Swashbuckler itself is only good as a 3 level dip :smallconfused:

Daring Outlaw makes it almost worth it due to being a full BAB sneak attack class.

Definitely better than Duelist.

[Urpriest]

Green Star Adept is bad for a casting class, true, but you only need one spellcasting level to get it, so I think of its poor casting progression as more of a boost for what is really a martial PrC... The BAB and spell progression are both equal to a 1:1 wizard/whatever gish... Are you referring to its expensive requirements for leveling up? Because I got the impression that people didn't really care about mere GP on this forum. It does require that you work out the prestige class with the DM. Is that why you don't like it? Because it requires actually working with your DM to make it fit into the campaign rather than just showing up one day with a pile of abilities?
I do see that the d8 Hit die isn't good, but again, that's the average of the fighter and wizard's hit dice (actually above average if you want to be technical; spot-on for the average of wizard and barbarian or wizard and warblade). The natural armor bonus isn't great, but it's better than nothing, and IIRC, amulets of natural armor enhance natural armor bonuses, so they stack, right? You lose Dexterity, which isn't great, but only 3 points over 10 levels; barely enough to count for most things. Your caster level is actually better than a mage/fighter multiclass or even a lot of gish type builds, even though your spells/day aren't. Plus you get immortality, immunity to a whole mess of attack types, and the ability to heal yourself as an arcane caster without shenanigans as a capstone. The natural attack isn't worth anything, but no one said you had to use it, so it's really a free ability, and you get DR/adamantine with each level up; not a ton, but a reasonable amount and more than a barbarian does (although barbarians have /- type DR).
So what's that bad about it? It's not the best, and it requires that the campaign support it, but I've seen worse.

A 1:1 mix means you can't do either in a level-appropriate manner. Remember, this is a 3.5 class, Eldritch Knight was around from the very beginning.

[deuxhero]

Is Risen Martyr the ONLY class Iron Chef refused to do because it was so weak, or has there been another?

[VoxRationis]

A 1:1 mix means you can't do either in a level-appropriate manner. Remember, this is a 3.5 class, Eldritch Knight was around from the very beginning.

How many other Eldritch Knight-progression PrCs are there? Most of the ones I think of are reduced progression...

[Urpriest]

How many other Eldritch Knight-progression PrCs are there? Most of the ones I think of are reduced progression...

A few later in 3.5, like Abjurant Champion...classes designed to function in the same role as Eldritch Knight, like Knight Phantom....a fair number of 3/4 BAB and full casting ones, WotC tended to not think of them as inherently gishy...plenty of full BAB half-casting ones with d10 HD, like Spellsword, Dragonslayer, heck even Bladesinger...plus Swiftblade and Jade Pheonix Mage of course.

Of course, all this is irrelevant. Eldritch Knight has no dedicated fluff, and came out at the beginning of 3.5. That means that there was no reason not to take it if you were building a character with those goals. So that's the competition that Green Star Adept should have kept in mind, if it was actually supposed to be a Fighter/Wizard hybrid.

[PraxisVetli]

I am in almost 100% agreement with what you've got do far.

I'd like to add Shining blade of Hepatitis

And thus, I shoot root beer out of my nose.
everywhere.

[(Un)Inspired]

How many other Eldritch Knight-progression PrCs are there? Most of the ones I think of are reduced progression...

Abjurant champion is the classic example of a gish prestige class done right. Full bab, full caster progression and class features that aid the character is being face in melee with magic.

Swiftblade looses more caster levels than even eldritch knight but makes up for it by having the COOLEST class features. You character essentially becomes super charged with speed and can dodge attacks and spells fired at him, take extra actions and hit harder.

I'm partial to the Phantom Knight as well. It progresses spell casting the same as eldritch knight but it has cool class features that let you jet around the battlefield at break neck speed on a spectral mount. (my little brother made a sorcerer phantom knight and reflavored phantom steed as a ghsotly surfboard he flew around on).


I'd like to include Unseen seer here as well. It only has medium bab but it fairly simple to qualify for and advances casting at each level. It gets great skill points and you can steal some divination spells from other classes; some of which can be incredibly useful in combat as a gish.

[Squark]

I'd like to include Unseen seer here as well. It only has medium bab but it fairly simple to qualify for and advances casting at each level. It gets great skill points and you can steal some divination spells from other classes; some of which can be incredibly useful in combat as a gish.

I think that, by definition, means it doesn't belong in this thread :smallwink:

[VoxRationis]

See, that's why so many of the core PrCs, as well as certain non-core PrCs, seem so underpowered to you. If you define prestige classes by their original design intent, that they be "more specialized, but perhaps slightly stronger" than base classes, a lot of the ones (though not all) you guys ridicule make sense. But the Abjurant Champion is way beyond that. A class with full BAB and full casting progression is neither more specialized nor only slightly stronger than a base class; it's like playing gestalt for five levels. There's literally no reason not to take it once you qualify, save maybe to take an even more powerful class, and that's not what a prestige class should be.

[Pyromancer999]

Shadow Smith (ToM), although the Prereqs arn't bad, what good are the abilities at the higher levels it is played at! You get mysteries, but they are arcane based and you DON'T get ASF ignorance past light armor. You get the ability to make things out of shadow, weapons what not, but get a single +5 bonus to 1 weapon or multiple +1 bonuses (all by 15th level). Why would a fighter type character limit himself / herself to light armor, poor fort saves, only a +5 bonus to armor / weapons, and spells which only can be cast 1/day!

Shadow Smith is certainly not one of the worst PrCs around. You get full BAB progression, a decent enough hit die, and other great abilities, including: Long-lasting AC buffs(which eventually becomes a swift action), bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, the ability to make +5 weapons which also gain the Shadow Striking property(allowing them to count as made of any type of material, which is useful for bypassing damage reduction, since most damage reduction can be bypassed by a certain type of material and/or magic weapons, which they already are), as well as a few other nice perks.

Sure, the hit die and poor Fortitude save aren't optimal, but a good Reflex save is not bad, and the mysteries don't function as well(not that you get many). Not sure why you think you have to limit yourself to light armor. Sure, it's the only kind you can create, but if you have heavier armor proficiency, there's nothing stopping you from wearing it and getting that enchanted.

Shadowsmith certainly isn't one of the most optimal prestige classes, especially for Melee types, although sneaky types do get a bit more benefit out of it overall, but it is quite far from being the worst, much less in the top 10 worst prestige classes.

Looking at you, Defiant.

[(Un)Inspired]

See, that's why so many of the core PrCs, as well as certain non-core PrCs, seem so underpowered to you. If you define prestige classes by their original design intent, that they be "more specialized, but perhaps slightly stronger" than base classes, a lot of the ones (though not all) you guys ridicule make sense. But the Abjurant Champion is way beyond that. A class with full BAB and full casting progression is neither more specialized nor only slightly stronger than a base class; it's like playing gestalt for five levels. There's literally no reason not to take it once you qualify, save maybe to take an even more powerful class, and that's not what a prestige class should be.

Not really because a abjurant champion is still weaker than just a straight wizard.

Don't get me wrong I love the abjurant champion but if a wizard spent the resources he used to enter abjurant champion and just wizarding, and stuck with just advancing his familiar and bonus feats with wizard levels than he's literally stronger than an abjurant champion.

[VoxRationis]

How is a familiar comparable to five levels of full BAB progression or an increased Hit Die?
Note that I said "or" there; I'm drawing comparisons between one feature for each option.

[Seerow]

How is a familiar comparable to five levels of full BAB progression or an increased Hit Die?
Note that I said "or" there; I'm drawing comparisons between one feature for each option.

There's also the part of dipping a noncaster class to qualify. That's where most of the power loss comes from. Same reason mystic theurge is mediocre rather than op despite double full casting progression

[(Un)Inspired]

How is a familiar comparable to five levels of full BAB progression or an increased Hit Die?
Note that I said "or" there; I'm drawing comparisons between one feature for each option.

Because hit die and bab are irrelevant for a wizard where as greater familiar abilities AND bonus feats are useful.

[VoxRationis]

There's also the part of dipping a noncaster class to qualify. That's where most of the power loss comes from. Same reason mystic theurge is mediocre rather than op despite double full casting progression

Oh. I see that now. Sorry; I was positing a choice between, having already taken all the prerequisites necessary for the class, taking Abjurant Champion levels and taking wizard levels, and I thought I had made that clear. My fault.

[Urpriest]

See, that's why so many of the core PrCs, as well as certain non-core PrCs, seem so underpowered to you. If you define prestige classes by their original design intent, that they be "more specialized, but perhaps slightly stronger" than base classes, a lot of the ones (though not all) you guys ridicule make sense. But the Abjurant Champion is way beyond that. A class with full BAB and full casting progression is neither more specialized nor only slightly stronger than a base class; it's like playing gestalt for five levels. There's literally no reason not to take it once you qualify, save maybe to take an even more powerful class, and that's not what a prestige class should be.

We're also not talking about the Abjurant Champion.

Basically, it would be fine for Green Star Adept to be worse than Abjurant Champion. Heck, Jade Pheonix Mage is arguably worse than Abjurant Champion.

The problem is that it's worse than a core PrC, Eldritch Knight. The problem is that it's so much worse that it can't do its job. The problem is that a d8 hit die with no Con is unworkable for a melee character, and losing five levels of casting advancement is unworkable for a caster. The problem is that "better than alternating Wizard and Fighter" is not, and has never been (in 3.5) the standard for a gish PrC.

[Divayth Fyr]

Is Risen Martyr the ONLY class Iron Chef refused to do because it was so weak, or has there been another?
Shining Blade of Heinous isn't considered a valid ingredient, since there isn't anything to optimize - does it count?

[MesiDoomstalker]

It takes you a standard action in the morning to do that forest-blighting, hardly a terrible inconvenience, and for much of history, there's been a lot of forest with not a lot of people in it per unit area to stop you. People can be lost for weeks in small areas of forest, when people with helicopters and electronics are looking for them; if you're wanting to do this kind of crap, you can get away with it for a time.
In any case, I'm pretty sure the blighter was meant as a class for NPC villains.

Don't forget there are Fey. And Druid Enclaves. And Ents. And a whole host of sentient beings whose fluff is protecting wilderness/forest and would in all likely hood an active defense against a Blighter.

Not to mention Blighter precludes operating in any environment besides areas with lots of forest.

[Incanur]

Hierophant goes well with ur-priest and divine crusader. Arcane archer works with duskblade.

I don't see anything particularly bad about warrior of darkness. You can get bane weapons on command, bonus feats, tremorsense, limited flight, various other minor perks, and the ability to move and still full attack 3/day as the capstone. All with full BAB, two good saves, and 4+int skill points.

[HaikenEdge]

I think the argument could be made that the Arcane Archer is actually functional in Gestalt archery-gish builds.

[VoxRationis]

Not to mention Blighter precludes operating in any environment besides areas with lots of forest.

Like with the Ur-Priest, playing a blighter is probably a good way to get killed quickly, but that's a common occupational hazard for villains, who tend to do things that make the champions of Good want to kill them. And unlike the Ur-Priest, who does things that anger a large number of (i.e., all) deities, the blighter offends forces that might not respond immediately. Possible threats to a blighter include:
Elves: Dying or declining in more campaign settings than you can shake a stick at, so they often have other things on their minds;
Treants: If you listen to the source material, prone to inertia;
Rangers: There's a lot of wilderness and not necessarily that many of them;
Fey: In otherworldly parties for decades at a time, in many cases;
Druids: Adventurers excepted, often reclusive homebodies who might not notice damage so long as it wasn't in their territory.
A blighter could conceivably operate for a while before getting hunted down, though numbers of them couldn't really function in a campaign setting, as they can't clump up and keep their spells and they can't spread out or they'll run out of empty spaces. Presumably blighters are rare, once-in-an-age occurrences.

[Naanomi]

Not as bad as some of what is on this list but... Enlightened Spirit? Warlocks get few enough PRCs that one shooting their progression in the foot for 'flavor' that one could just fluff in anyways is pretty bad.

[Shining Wrath]

Like with the Ur-Priest, playing a blighter is probably a good way to get killed quickly, but that's a common occupational hazard for villains, who tend to do things that make the champions of Good want to kill them. And unlike the Ur-Priest, who does things that anger a large number of (i.e., all) deities, the blighter offends forces that might not respond immediately. Possible threats to a blighter include:
Elves: Dying or declining in more campaign settings than you can shake a stick at, so they often have other things on their minds;
Treants: If you listen to the source material, prone to inertia;
Rangers: There's a lot of wilderness and not necessarily that many of them;
Fey: In otherworldly parties for decades at a time, in many cases;
Druids: Adventurers excepted, often reclusive homebodies who might not notice damage so long as it wasn't in their territory.
A blighter could conceivably operate for a while before getting hunted down, though numbers of them couldn't really function in a campaign setting, as they can't clump up and keep their spells and they can't spread out or they'll run out of empty spaces. Presumably blighters are rare, once-in-an-age occurrences.

I think all that's true, but remember the lesson of Saruman: when the treants shake off their inertia, or the fey stop partying and pay attention to what you're doing, you are dead. How many Leshay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm) does it take to ruin your entire day?

[Nihilarian]

I think the argument could be made that the Arcane Archer is actually functional in Gestalt archery-gish builds.A lot of classes can be considered good if you have a caster on the other side carrying it.

About Dragon Disciple: I imagine that it could be decent if taken after a PrC that grants spellcasting.

[Just to Browse]

Has anyone mentioned Blighter? I'm gonna mention Blighter. You know, the Ur Priest of Druids. Except, taking a steaming pile on everything good about Druids and making casting nearly impossible to do. Seriously, an acre of forest per level per day just to prep spells?! Where are you finding these vast expanses of forest that no one is stopping you from burning them down?

I second the blighter. What were they thinking...

[Calimehter]

I've heard it said that "friends don't let friends play Frenzied Berserker". Given the number of TPK's it is (rumored to be) responsible for, would it count?

[VoxRationis]

Actually, my brother played a frenzied berserker in a game of mine once. In addition to wrecking every combat encounter, he always managed to make that Will save to come out of frenzy. The only party member he ever endangered with his frenzy was the one no one liked anyway. (My fault for his enemies not throwing pebbles at him when they were camped out, though.)

[HaikenEdge]

I've heard it said that "friends don't let friends play Frenzied Berserker". Given the number of TPK's it is (rumored to be) responsible for, would it count?

No. A Frenzied Berserker is one Grease away from being taken out of a fight.

Or a Calm Emotion away from being taken out of a Frenzy.

[Shining Wrath]

No. A Frenzied Berserker is one Grease away from being taken out of a fight.

Or a Calm Emotion away from being taken out of a Frenzy.

Grease - is there any problem it can't solve?

[HaikenEdge]

Grease - is there any problem it can't solve?

There are, but that's what you have Shatter, Time Hop and Disintegrate for.

[VoxRationis]

No. A Frenzied Berserker is one Grease away from being taken out of a fight.

Assuming crappy saves (yeah, you can buff the DC with a couple of things, but still) and a Balance check that consistently can't hit DC 10. Or a character that doesn't just roll out of the area (i.e., moving while prone).

[Rubik]

Don't forget there are Fey. And Druid Enclaves. And Ents.Ents? What sourcebook are those in? I don't recall ever having seen those. Are they like adamantium and adamantite, which also don't actually exist in any sourcebook ever printed?

[Story]

There's also the part of dipping a noncaster class to qualify. That's where most of the power loss comes from. Same reason mystic theurge is mediocre rather than op despite double full casting progression

You don't actually have to dip anything to qualify for Abjurant Champion. In fact, I remember seeing a pure Wizard/Divine Oracle/Abjurant Champion build a while back. Admittedly, you can't get it until high levels without dipping.


Oh. I see that now. Sorry; I was positing a choice between, having already taken all the prerequisites necessary for the class, taking Abjurant Champion levels and taking wizard levels, and I thought I had made that clear. My fault.

That's not a fair comparison though, because usually the main cost of a Prc is the entry requirements. The term "feat tax" exists for a reason.

Are you telling me that you'd ever willingly take Combat Casting for instance?


Ents? What sourcebook are those in? I don't recall ever having seen those. Are they like adamantium and adamantite, which also don't actually exist in any sourcebook ever printed?

There's Treants in the Monster Manual, and they're close enough.

[VoxRationis]

That's not a fair comparison though, because usually the main cost of a Prc is the entry requirements. The term "feat tax" exists for a reason.

Well, comparing straight Wizard to a wizard/fighter multiclass isn't necessarily a fair comparison either.

[Theomniadept]

Can I nominate Lifedrinker? Because accentuating LA+8 vampire with ten wasted levels redeems it.

[Thiyr]

I'm gonna use Daggerspell Shaper as a contribution to Pretty Dang Bad PrCs. Give up a caster level and require a dip to get...uh, continued druid progression/sneak attack progression? a few GP saved for some wilding clasps? Saving a feat on speeding up wildshape's action is kinda nice, i guess. Oh,I can take all the *FUN* of spending tons of money on two weapon fighting and apply it to my wildshape. 'Cause that's the best part.

Oh, and a capstone that incentivises doing melee outside of wildshape? Yea. No.


Assuming crappy saves (yeah, you can buff the DC with a couple of things, but still) and a Balance check that consistently can't hit DC 10. Or a character that doesn't just roll out of the area (i.e., moving while prone).

The problem is that the frenzied berserker "character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate" (emphasis mine). Balance, being dex based, can't be rolled, meaning it can't make that dc 10 balance check at all. Now, I'm too lazy/tired to look up what the RAW on not being CAPABLE of making a check is, but assuming it's considered an auto-fail (which is reasonable, even if technically it could be considered a non-roll and thus be neither success nor failure, resulting in a broken gamestate), that means that the FB just can't move at all. Reflex save is irrelevant, as that's just to stop you from falling prone at the start of the spell. but anyone on the grease needs to make that dc10 to move half speed. Failure means that they can't move at all (and might knock them prone anyway) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm)

So grease just shuts down a FB, no questions asked. Which makes it pretty terrible imo, if any chump with a bag of marbles (they work kinda like grease, but without taking a spell slot. Huzza!) can shut you down.

[Grim Reader]

Blighter is pretty good. And by "Pretty good" I mean "hideously overpowered".

9th level spells in 9 levels, to qualify you need +4 BaB and fluff. You also get an enhanced version of Wild Shape, and the fairly unique ability to change type to Undead as a standard action. If you don't like Undead, you can just take 1 level and then advance the spellcasting with another class.

Its basically a very slightly worse version of Ur-Priest through its progression. Ur-Priests Steal Spell-Like Ability is better than Wild Shape and the Ur-Priest spell list is far better (although those are easily expanded), but the Blighter should be ahead by a spell level until the classes cap. Ur-Priest really pulls ahead at level 9, but before that...

Dragon Disciple is also good if taken at the right time, which is epic. Stength boosts are nice when you're no longer gaining BaB, but the big draw is...7 more epic spell slots! Yes please.

[Nihilarian]

I'm gonna use Daggerspell Shaper as a contribution to Pretty Dang Bad PrCs. Give up a caster level and require a dip to get...uh, continued druid progression/sneak attack progression? a few GP saved for some wilding clasps? Saving a feat on speeding up wildshape's action is kinda nice, i guess. Oh,I can take all the *FUN* of spending tons of money on two weapon fighting and apply it to my wildshape. 'Cause that's the best part.

Oh, and a capstone that incentivises doing melee outside of wildshape? Yea. No.Wildshape Rangers like it a bit better, though it's still not amazing. I like using a 2 level dip in conjunction with a wildshape ranger swift hunter build to get magic claws.

[Vertharrad]

Blighters kill themselves...what happens when they destroy all the vegetation that's changing that carbon monoxide to oxygen? On top of the no vegetables? I'm positive eventually they'd disappear when they can't cast spells anymore. Their enemies would come out of the woodwork and slaughter them wholesale. Blighter is a PrC that should've been written better...

[Squark]

Blighters kill themselves...what happens when they destroy all the vegetation that's changing that carbon monoxide to oxygen? On top of the no vegetables? I'm positive eventually they'd disappear when they can't cast spells anymore. Their enemies would come out of the woodwork and slaughter them wholesale. Blighter is a PrC that should've been written better...

I think it's supposed to be what the blackguard is to Paladin players; that is, their evil opposite number. I don't think a ton of thought was put in because the primary purpose is to motivate the players to kill the blighter.

[Grim Reader]

Blighters kill themselves...what happens when they destroy all the vegetation that's changing that carbon monoxide to oxygen? On top of the no vegetables? I'm positive eventually they'd disappear when they can't cast spells anymore. Their enemies would come out of the woodwork and slaughter them wholesale. Blighter is a PrC that should've been written better...

Undead don't need to breathe or eat :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

Whenever one of these threads come up, I always nominate the Master Inquisitive, from Eberron Campaign Setting. The prerequisite is a feat whose only benefit is that you're allowed to think about things you see, and the primary class feature is that you're allowed to talk to people. You also get a couple of very situational spell-like abilities that you could have gotten more times per day just by being a caster. Oh, and it has six skill points per level, but so few class skills that you're literally forced to cross-class (it doesn't even have any of the skills like Craft or Profession that encompass multiple skills).

If you wanted to play a Sherlock Holmes type, you'd be far better off just staying in rogue or something. Heck, you'd probably be better off staying in barbarian.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ents? What sourcebook are those in? I don't recall ever having seen those. Are they like adamantium and adamantite, which also don't actually exist in any sourcebook ever printed?


There's Treants in the Monster Manual, and they're close enough.

My group calls them Ents. I always forget that's not what WotC calls them.


Undead don't need to breathe or eat :smallsmile:

Not really relevant when you consider a Blighter is not actually Undead. He has to drop out of Undead Wildshape eventually.

[Grim Reader]

Not really relevant when you consider a Blighter is not actually Undead. He has to drop out of Undead Wildshape eventually.

He is Undead when he is in Wildshape. I don't really know of any other way to switch in and out of Undead as an action? Lasts an hour per level, so at 8 level he can stay Undead permanently.

(Actually, the Blighter loses the need to eat and drink at level 2)

[Gnaeus]

No love for Reaping Mauler? It focuses you on a sub-optimal style and effectively blocks you from wearing armor when you do it. It gives improved grapple as a bonus feat, but presumably if you loved grappling enough that you wanted to be in a grappling PRC you would have wanted it long before level 6. It uses Wis for all its special abilities, so it makes your melee more MAD. As a prereq, it requires clever wrestling, which is:
1. a feat only usable for escaping grapples. So totally useless for a character who wants to be grappling
and
2. a feat which (unless you get it by some other method which bypasses the restriction) prevents you from being large size, and functionally shuts down your class abilities if your wizard buffs you with an enlarge person or polymorph.

[Thiyr]

Wildshape Rangers like it a bit better, though it's still not amazing. I like using a 2 level dip in conjunction with a wildshape ranger swift hunter build to get magic claws.

But don't you lose TWF with wildshape ranger? Means you still need to burn two feats to get in, both being incompatible with what seems like the central class feature you'd be using (unless you have aptitude claws, which would be kinda weird, kinda a waste for just weapon focus, and...kinda awesome, now that I think about it. I love aptitude). At that point, though, I'd rather just get a necklace of natural weapons. Actually ends up costing less if you only care about the two natural attacks.

[Nihilarian]

But don't you lose TWF with wildshape ranger? Means you still need to burn two feats to get in, both being incompatible with what seems like the central class feature you'd be using (unless you have aptitude claws, which would be kinda weird, kinda a waste for just weapon focus, and...kinda awesome, now that I think about it. I love aptitude). At that point, though, I'd rather just get a necklace of natural weapons. Actually ends up costing less if you only care about the two natural attacks.Fair enough.

[Valtu]

This isn't a gripe about any particular prestige class, but it does relate. I really hate when a feat like Iron Will, Combat Casting, etc is a prerequisite for a class (which is all the time).

I'd much prefer have X ranks in X skill, or better yet maybe have a total modifier of X to a certain skill without it being boosted by an item.

[Piggy Knowles]

Arcane Archer is even worse than Dragon Disciple, since it requires 3rd level spells but has no casting progression.

Arcane Archer doesn't require 3rd-level spells.

[TuggyNE]

My group calls them Ents. I always forget that's not what WotC calls them.

And halflings hobbits? :smallamused: "They're legally distinct!" :smalltongue:

[The Viscount]

No love for Reaping Mauler? It [...] requires clever wrestling, which is:
1. a feat only usable for escaping grapples. So totally useless for a character who wants to be grappling
and
2. a feat which (unless you get it by some other method which bypasses the restriction) prevents you from being large size, and functionally shuts down your class abilities if your wizard buffs you with an enlarge person or polymorph.
Your criticisms of Reaping Mauler are all fair and accurate. There is one way to get around clever wrestling's irritating requirement of medium, and that is drop 3 levels in Leviathan Hunter. Of course, Leviathan Hunter is not a very good class and forces you down the ranger road, but with wildshape ranger and nature's warrior you might have an ok grappler build.



The problem is that the frenzied berserker "character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate" (emphasis mine).

Frenzied Berserker is really not that bad. This is a classic problem with Frenzied Berserker, and it has 2 classic responses.
1. Obtain a means of flight. This obviates the need for balance checks. Often coupled with a merciful weapon so you don't have to kill your friends and your DM says you have to attack with weapons

2. The strongest part of Frenzied Berserker is not the Frenzy, but Improved and Supreme Power Attack, and they are why many take the class. If this is what you desire, you can simply wake up in the morning, find a quiet corner, and use up all your uses of frenzy for the day. Then you can go about your day free to do what you want any old time.

[Thiyr]

Frenzied Berserker is really not that bad. This is a classic problem with Frenzied Berserker, and it has 2 classic responses.
1. Obtain a means of flight. This obviates the need for balance checks. Often coupled with a merciful weapon so you don't have to kill your friends and your DM says you have to attack with weapons

2. The strongest part of Frenzied Berserker is not the Frenzy, but Improved and Supreme Power Attack, and they are why many take the class. If this is what you desire, you can simply wake up in the morning, find a quiet corner, and use up all your uses of frenzy for the day. Then you can go about your day free to do what you want any old time.

Oh, true. There are enough ways around the FB problems that it's not something i'd say is the WORST, but I did want to point out why rolling out of the grease/making your reflex save/being able to make a DC 10 balance check don't matter when a FB is in grease, given Vox's comment. It's still pretty bad that you can be shut down with marbles in theory, but there are still SOME ways around it at least.

[Story]

I'm confused about Supreme Cleave. Isn't that how it normally works? I know you can take a 5ft step in between iterative attacks.

[Necroticplague]

I'm confused about Supreme Cleave. Isn't that how it normally works? I know you can take a 5ft step in between iterative attacks.

Yes, but normally you're limited to just 1 per turn.

[IIzak]

I'm curious what opinions are on this. And I'm not counting dysfunctions like Dragon Disciple that are particularly bad for disqualifying you upon finishing.

My list would include all mundane (no casting progression) DMG PrCs.

1. Duelist
2. Dragon Disciple
3. Arcane Archer
4. Dwarven Defender

Keledrath, I'm not sure if this is a typo or not, but in the beginning of this thread, you said that you weren't counting dysfunctions like Dragon Disciple, and the number 2 on your list is Dragon Disciple. Was there another class you were going to put there instead?

[Divayth Fyr]

Keledrath, I'm not sure if this is a typo or not, but in the beginning of this thread, you said that you weren't counting dysfunctions like Dragon Disciple, and the number 2 on your list is Dragon Disciple. Was there another class you were going to put there instead?
He isn't counting classes that are bad because of disfunctions (like DD losing all benefits at 10th level due to the type change), but DD qualifies on the merit of not giving you enough to warrant taking it in the first place (the bonuses you wouldn't get from taking the half-dragon template in a normal way aren't worth burning 7 more levels).

[Incanur]

Shining blade of heironeous is bad because it completely cripples your caster progression in exchange for terrible class features that could be replicated by cheep magic items and are nullified by really basic resistances.

For a cleric, sure, but I don't see what's so bad about it for a martial character. It's got a very solid chassis with full BAB, two good saves, and d10 hit die. And you don't need to burn any feats to qualify. The abilities are pretty terrible because of the short duration and standard-action activation, but if you're just dipping cleric as a martial character you at least get five levels of casting without losing any more BAB. Seems ok to me. Very weak for a pure cleric or paladin, though, definitely.

[Gwendol]

There are a number of good examples of really bad classes in this thread already, but I notice the cloaked dancer PrC is still missing.
This is a half-caster class, that can affect enemies through dance, although the DC will be laughable compared with what a bard can do with fascinate at the same level.

[Vhaidara]

He isn't counting classes that are bad because of disfunctions (like DD losing all benefits at 10th level due to the type change), but DD qualifies on the merit of not giving you enough to warrant taking it in the first place (the bonuses you wouldn't get from taking the half-dragon template in a normal way aren't worth burning 7 more levels).

This. It would be bad even if it wasn't dysfunctional.

[Thiyr]

For a cleric, sure, but I don't see what's so bad about it for a martial character. It's got a very solid chassis with full BAB, two good saves, and d10 hit die. And you don't need to burn any feats to qualify. The abilities are pretty terrible because of the short duration and standard-action activation, but if you're just dipping cleric as a martial character you at least get five levels of casting without losing any more BAB. Seems ok to me. Very weak for a pure cleric or paladin, though, definitely.

The problem is that its only class features are that half casting (which, if (you're happy with half-casting, you probably didn't much care about in the first place, see the example you gave, or is utterly insufficient as with a cleric), and the ability to...get specific special weapon properties a few times per day. Enough that you can likely have two up for each combat, (the cheap two), or can stretch yourself a bit thinner with having all three up. That's it, for ten levels of class. An extra 3d6 vs evil creatures and the situational brilliant energy for ten levels is an awful trade. I mean, it's better than nothing, but it doesn't open up interesting choices, it's not really that great of a damage boost given how long it takes, and it puts a major damper on any casting you may have been going for. It just doesn't add much.

Heck, I seem to remember there being some kind of contest involving finding any build which would actively be improved by SBoH specifically, and there was...maybe a single person who could find anything? That says something.

[Incanur]

SBoH is potentially better than cleric for a martial character interested in maintaining BAB. To get 6 levels of cleric casting you'd otherwise have to take 6 levels of cleric, losing 5hp and 1 BAB compared with SBoH. I'm not saying it's a good choice or anything, but I don't know that it's as bad as duelist. Duelist abilities are potentially more potent - mainly elaborate parry - but the class requires sketchy feats and promotes a generally weak fighting style. SBoH on the other hand doesn't hinder you from wearing armor and power-attacking with a two-handed weapon.

[georgie_leech]

SBoH is potentially better than cleric for a martial character interested in maintaining BAB. To get 6 levels of cleric casting you'd otherwise have to take 6 levels of cleric, losing 5hp and 1 BAB compared with SBoH. I'm not saying it's a good choice or anything, but I don't know that it's as bad as duelist. Duelist abilities are potentially more potent - mainly elaborate parry - but the class requires sketchy feats and promotes a generally weak fighting style. SBoH on the other hand doesn't hinder you from wearing armor and power-attacking with a two-handed weapon.

I don't know, I think 3 extra bonus feats is probably the better deal when compared to the ability to temporarily make your sword glow with up to 3 different enchantments at the cost one standard action each. After all, if you're willing to use a standard action for a short term buff, just one more level of Cleric gets you Divine Power, so the BaB and HP advantage... isn't.

[Gwendol]

SBoH is potentially better than cleric for a martial character interested in maintaining BAB. To get 6 levels of cleric casting you'd otherwise have to take 6 levels of cleric, losing 5hp and 1 BAB compared with SBoH. I'm not saying it's a good choice or anything, but I don't know that it's as bad as duelist. Duelist abilities are potentially more potent - mainly elaborate parry - but the class requires sketchy feats and promotes a generally weak fighting style. SBoH on the other hand doesn't hinder you from wearing armor and power-attacking with a two-handed weapon.

You're saying taking 6 levels of cleric as if it would be a bad thing...

[The Viscount]

Heck, I seem to remember there being some kind of contest involving finding any build which would actively be improved by SBoH specifically, and there was...maybe a single person who could find anything? That says something.

IIRC, this one build consisted of SBoH and several other short classes that were finished, so they could only take more SBoH levels.

[nedz]

IIRC, this one build consisted of SBoH and several other short classes that were finished, so they could only take more SBoH levels.

I think it may have been my build. IIRC Warrior 5 / Pious Templar 5 / SBoH 10
The point was that it's Full BAB and PT only has 10 levels of casting.
Obviously there are better builds.

[.Zero]

Ehm... Metamind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/metamind.htm) anyone? Who cares of free manifesting when you lose 5 ml and you have a ridiculous capstone?

[Feint's End]

Ehm... Metamind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/metamind.htm) anyone? Who cares of free manifesting when you lose 5 ml and you have a ridiculous capstone?

Ardents with the dominant ideal acf do. Infinte standardactions anyone? Even without such shenanigans they are highly competitive with other caster/manifester builds and can even surpass them.

[Vedhin]

On SBoH, I put forth Adept 14/SBoH 6 in that thread. If you wanted to be silly, Adept 8/Hexer 4/SBoH 8 is also available.

[Thiyr]

SBoH is potentially better than cleric for a martial character interested in maintaining BAB. To get 6 levels of cleric casting you'd otherwise have to take 6 levels of cleric, losing 5hp and 1 BAB compared with SBoH. I'm not saying it's a good choice or anything, but I don't know that it's as bad as duelist. Duelist abilities are potentially more potent - mainly elaborate parry - but the class requires sketchy feats and promotes a generally weak fighting style. SBoH on the other hand doesn't hinder you from wearing armor and power-attacking with a two-handed weapon.

Losing that one point of BAB isn't super relevant for the most part. Mostly because you're a single level behind 4th level cleric spells at that point, and we all know what THAT means (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm). That alone makes up the difference in chassis and then some. So it comes down to the class abilities, and even if I wanted to stop at that level of casting, I'd rather fill the rest of the levels with _fighter_. That's...not a good place to be in.

Also, thanks to those who brought up more concrete SBoH examples. And thanks to georgie for sayin' what i just said before I did.

[VoxRationis]

Blighters kill themselves...what happens when they destroy all the vegetation that's changing that carbon monoxide to oxygen? On top of the no vegetables?

Photosynthesis changes carbon dioxide, not carbon monoxide, to sugars and oxygen, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure what process addresses the balance of carbon monoxide in the atmosphere.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure what process addresses the balance of carbon monoxide in the atmosphere.
It's short-lived - it oxidises to become carbon dioxide.

[Necroticplague]

It's short-lived - it oxidises to become carbon dioxide.

One of the problems being when it decides to use the oxygen in your lungs to do so.

[VoxRationis]

Thanks, I thought it might be something like that.

[Incanur]

Divine power is great and all, but it does take a standard action without tricks. Just having that +1 BAB and 5hp is occasionally better. :smallwink: Obviously cleric levels would be better overall, but SBoH isn't totally useless. Definitely terrible design, though. Standard action for sword buff that only lasts rounds? Really?

Amusingly, warrior of darkness (http://dndtools.eu/classes/warrior-of-darkness/) - a class that was mentioned here earlier, completely unfairly - gets to add a +1 equivalent enhancement for 50gp and 3 rounds that last an hour per warrior of darkness level. That's generally far more useful.

[Feint's End]

Amusingly, warrior of darkness (http://dndtools.eu/classes/warrior-of-darkness/) - a class that was mentioned here earlier, completely unfairly - gets to add a +1 equivalent enhancement for 50gp and 3 rounds that last an hour per warrior of darkness level. That's generally far more useful.

Just looked through the class and in all honesty it doesn't look so bad. The requirements are easy to meet with a feat attainable from a location. The class is a strict upgrade to a fighter and easy to enter. The get limited flight, some nice defensive stuff, limited move and attack, nice and cheap enhancement Boni (not sure if you could use it more often to increase the Boni up to +10). Sure the concept may put some people off but that's not what this thread is about.

[Vizzerdrix]

I want to toss two stinkers onto the pile from Faerun.\

Lantan/Gnome Artificer from Magic of Faerun. You need some casting to get into a PrC that flavor wise wants nothing to do with casting and mechanics wise won't help with casting in any way. You can get some low level spells in the form of very expensive machines that you'll need to min/max STR just to carry around. The only thing it has going for it is Anti Magic Fields won't effect them.

Spellfire Channeler. Can someone please explain to me what this class is supposed to be used for? A D4 and bad BAB says not combat, and 2 skill points says not skill monkey, and it should go without saying that without spells it is no caster. Was it supposed to be some sort of warlock? YEah I know warlock came out after Spellfire Channeler but that isn't an excuse for why Spellfire Channeler is such a steaming pile.

[MadGreenSon]

Spellfire Channeler. Can someone please explain to me what this class is supposed to be used for? A D4 and bad BAB says not combat, and 2 skill points says not skill monkey, and it should go without saying that without spells it is no caster. Was it supposed to be some sort of warlock? YEah I know warlock came out after Spellfire Channeler but that isn't an excuse for why Spellfire Channeler is such a steaming pile.

+1000000 to that! I read the old novel Spellfire, which made the ability seem like awesome with a side order of badass, and was very disappointed with this pile of... whatever. You'd expect someone who makes it their entire focus to absorb magic and do blasting/healing/etc with the raw power of magic itself wouldn't suck so bad.

Oy. I ever need Spellfire for a game I'm running I'll just homebrew a template or something

[Vizzerdrix]

Amusingly, warrior of darkness (http://dndtools.eu/classes/warrior-of-darkness/) - a class that was mentioned here earlier, completely unfairly - gets to add a +1 equivalent enhancement for 50gp and 3 rounds that last an hour per warrior of darkness level. That's generally far more useful.

Oooh! Look at its Good counterpart, Anointed Knight (http://dndtools.eu/classes/anointed-knight/).

[Incanur]

I'm going to mention Bladesinger. It's obviously not one of the worst prestige classes strictly speaking, but it's one of the most disappointing. Back in AD&D, bladesingers had such renown. In 3.5, it's generally inferior to eldritch knight, the generic core gish class. All the abilities are nice but nothing special, and you have to take a bunch of meh feats to qualify, lose 5 caster levels, and can't two-handed power attack. :smallfrown:

[Snowbluff]

Can I nominate Lifedrinker? Because accentuating LA+8 vampire with ten wasted levels redeems it.

Nope. Save Progression Vampires get use out of it, and it's similiar to a literate War Hulk.

Arcane Archer is GOOD in a 2 level dip. Casting spells with a long casting time as a standard is awesome. Add it to Ur Priest, Divine Crusader, etc.

Swiftblade is the coolest thing ever.

Arcane Duelist is pretty goofy. It's not the worst PrC ever, though.

How about this: The Truename/Monk class in ToM? Two of the worst things ever, combined!

[Sir Chuckles]

Nope. Save Progression Vampires get use out of it, and it's similiar to a literate War Hulk.

Arcane Archer is GOOD in a 2 level dip. Casting spells with a long casting time as a standard is awesome. Add it to Ur Priest, Divine Crusader, etc.

Swiftblade is the coolest thing ever.

Arcane Duelist is pretty goofy. It's not the worst PrC ever, though.

How about this: The Truename/Monk class in ToM? Two of the worst things ever, combined!

Arcane Duelist's biggest pitfall is the bad BaB and lack of casting progression. You know, the two things that are directly implied by the name.
It's functional, but jeez it makes me cry a little. I'm a sucker for a Gish.

[Nihilarian]

Arcane Duelist's biggest pitfall is the bad BaB and lack of casting progression. You know, the two things that are directly implied by the name.
It's functional, but jeez it makes me cry a little. I'm a sucker for a Gish.The BAB can be gotten around by taking the Legacy Champion PrC, at least. Duskblade or Hexblade 8/Arcane Duelist 2/Legacy Champion 10 is fairly interesting.

[Thiyr]

Divine power is great and all, but it does take a standard action without tricks. Just having that +1 BAB and 5hp is occasionally better. :smallwink: Obviously cleric levels would be better overall, but SBoH isn't totally useless. Definitely terrible design, though. Standard action for sword buff that only lasts rounds? Really?

While it -can- matter, generally I find that it won't matter terribly often. 5hp really isn't too much at the level we're talking about, and unless its pushing you up to another iterative, that 1 bab can be covered by buffs. The big difference is if you're using the standard action to cast DP, or using it to activate shining blade stuff, and DP will be the better choice overall. A better alternative to SBOH for a short burst if you really need the chassis would be ordained champion, really.

As for Warrior of Darkness, it's not holy carp super excellent, but it isn't terrible either. Decent chassis, gives a 3/d pseudo-pounce, bonus feats are nice, tremor sense is useful. DR magic is less fun than dr/+3, but that's what we've got in 3.5 now. SR 20 comes a bit too little too late, but hey, it's at least a 5% miss rate on some spells. Nothing to jump for joy over, but nothing to make me weep bitter tears over the wasted potential.

[Vedhin]

Arcane Duelist is pretty goofy. It's not the worst PrC ever, though.

It's better if you ignore your gish instincts and just put it on a primarily noncaster melee. A dip in a base class will get you the spells, and some classes are less costly for mundanes, like Duskblade.

[Chronos]

Quoth Snowbluff:

How about this: The Truename/Monk class in ToM? Two of the worst things ever, combined!
Sure, the ingredients suck, but that's not the PrC's fault. If you play it as primarily a monk with just a dip (or feat) to meet the truenaming prerequisite, then the class is an upgrade (however small) over pure monk. If nothing else, the ability to use True Speech in place of other skills lets a monk max out as many skills as they ought to be able to.