Best theif you can make

[kpumphre]

Stats are
18 18 16 16 16 16
Gestalt all books for 3.5 No dragon magazine
NO prestige classes allowed (rules since we are Gestalt)

What would make the best thief and still be playable oh and no evil or CN.

Want to be playable in combat but be fun for out of combat stuff. I know rogue comes to mind but any type of rogue and how to deal with magic stuff.

Level 3 currently.

[Vhaidara]

Factotum//Wizard.

Factotum gives you skill points and skill list, along with Int synergy.

Wizard gives you spells for everything.

Any particular kind of thief you're looking for? Con-man, second story man, pick pocket?

[Flickerdart]

Beguiler//Factotum would be a great combination for a thief. Amazing stealth, great skills, and a big stack of magic at your disposal to augment your stealing-based activities.

[kpumphre]

Pick pocket, still from the super rich wizard. Use the magic items and such.

I was kind of thinking warlock/Rogue

[NoACWarrior]

Mmm, for me it would be Spellthief // Duskblade.

Full BAB, good fort and will, arcane channeling, able to wear light - medium - heavy armor, martial weapon proficiency, lots of low level spells, sneak attack and spell stealing, trap finding, debuffing, energy resistance stealing, 2nd party nuker or buffer, tones of knowledge, dungeon solving skills, and some out of combat roles.

You are the arcane tank who can debuff, dish out damage, and skill check your way to victory.

[HunterOfJello]

Please define what you mean by "Thief".

Final Fantasy Thief is very different from Tolkein's "Burglar" which is very different from a d&d rogue who spends his time breaking into people's houses, picking pockets, and opening locks that are not meant to be opened.



For a skill monkey, i would honestly consider making half the character a cleric or cloistered cleric for the great domains, escape powers, turn undead feat versatility, and ridiculous skill buffing from Divine Insight.



NO prestige classes allowed (rules since we are Gestalt)

I saw a mention of this same idea in another thread. Was that a person in your same game that has a houserule of banning PrCs in a gestalt game or did you guys happen to misread the rules?

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, gestalt doesn't outlaw prestige, it outlaws dual-progression prestige.

[jjcrpntr]

Please define what you mean by "Thief".

Final Fantasy Thief is very different from Tolkein's "Burglar" which is very different from a d&d rogue who spends his time breaking into people's houses, picking pockets, and opening locks that are not meant to be opened.



For a skill monkey, i would honestly consider making half the character a cleric or cloistered cleric for the great domains, escape powers, turn undead feat versatility, and ridiculous skill buffing from Divine Insight.



I saw a mention of this same idea in another thread. Was that a person in your same game that has a houserule of banning PrCs in a gestalt game or did you guys happen to misread the rules?

It was probably another of his threads. Our DM (I'm in his group) has a house rule that if playing a gestalt character you're not allowed to do prestige classes. His logic is that by us being gestalts we're likely to be super powered anyway.

Bummer is that there's a wizard prestige that I really like that I wont be able to use. But it doesn't really seem to bother any of us.

[One Step Two]

If you can, take a Psion or, better yet, a Spell-to-Power Erudite for your "caster" side. No pesky Verbal or Somatic components. Heck, you could even be an Elan, free Imortality.

[Nihilarian]

Spellthief is practically mandatory, so you can steal spells. The other side depends. Wizard would be best overall, but a Duskblade could be fun.

[Slipperychicken]

Factotum//Wizard.

Factotum gives you skill points and skill list, along with Int synergy.

Wizard gives you spells for everything.

To elaborate:

Corpse Candle (Sorc/Wiz 3, SpC) reveals all hidden/invisible/ethereal objects within 5ft of a candle which flies as you direct it. So long, Search checks.

Knock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/knock.htm): I guess this one largely invalidates Open Lock (although Disable Device already did that).

Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm): So much for Move Silently.

Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) (including its Greater (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm&sa=U&ei=dNInU_PpCI3H0AG_mIHIAg&ved=0CAUQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHpad8wvmvQHit8lb2ZvCnL4Toj4A), Spherical (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilitySphere.htm&sa=U&ei=Y9InU7SsNYmvkAeyrIGYDg&ved=0CAUQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEj-6gqN36auuI1ODWlrnY4O4R7lA), and Superior [sorc/wiz 8, SpC] brothers, and all the other variations thereof): Hide is still useful, though.

Blinding Color Surge (Beguiler 2, Sorc/Wiz 2, from PHB2): It's like if Invisibility and Glitterdust had an adorable baby.

Spider Climb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiderClimb.htm): Does that whole "climbing" thing pretty well, with a good duration too.

Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm), and all its many variants (Swift, Mass, Overland, etc). You probably already know why this is awesome.

Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm) and Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm): It's like an instant getaway car, even before you can teleport.

You also have the Hide From X spells.
And many, many more.


Granted, it's still a good idea to put ranks in the normal thief skills, because you want to save your spell slots for when it really matters. Also, Silent Spell is going to be useful for obvious reasons, and at least the lesser version of the Rod of Silent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicSilent) should make its way into your inventory at some point. Most of your staple spells are levels 1-3 anyway.

Additionally, you'll want to have some wands/scrolls of your breadwinning thief spells. This means that you can spend slots on non-thiefy spells now and then, and exhausting your memorized spells won't be as much of an issue.

The feat Darkstalker is practically mandatory for any serious thief in 3.5. See if you can get your GM to let it work against other senses as well.

[Keneth]

Theif? Is that the AD&D counterpart of rouge? :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

A bit out of the box, but the incarnate/rogue could stack the skill bonuses from soulmelds on top of the rogue skill ranks.

[John Longarrow]

Mayor Richard Daley.

Wait, were you talking just a simple "Go into tunnels and grab things" thief or a real "Empty the coffers of the kingdom through graft" thief?

[Person_Man]

Just in terms of using Sleight of Hand and taking physical stuff from your enemy, I would suggest Shadowcaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268661) for one side of the gestalt. Quicker than the Eye mystery gets +15 to Sleight of Hand and the ability to do it at a range. Shadowcaster is also good for stuff related to hiding and teleportation, though it's worth mentioning that due to their weird nerfed mystery progression, the Shadowcaster is generally considered weak sauce compared to most other full caster casters.

Also remember that you can use Sleight of Hand as a free action (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7893750) by accepting a big penalty, allowing you to steal multiple times per round.

Incarnate is also worth considering for any gestalt build, since it grants large scaled bonuses (+6 to +16 or more) to many different Skills, including Sleight of Hand, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Search, Disable Device, Tumble, UMD, etc. Totemist is also worth considering for this reason, though he can cover fewer Skills.

[Chronos]

Totemist mostly doesn't get useful skill bonuses. Most of the bonuses a totemist gets are competence bonuses, which are the same type that you can much more easily get from magic items or spells, so they won't stack with what you've already got.

Incarnate, on the other hand, is a good idea. You get insight bonuses from most incarnate melds, which are much harder to come by from other sources. Pair that up with a more conventional skill class like factotum, and it all stacks. On the other hand, incarnum doesn't scale all that well, so you might be best off with only a small number of incarnate levels plus a bunch of something else.

Also remember that there's no benefit to putting classes on both sides with a bunch of skill points-- You'll just get whichever one gets more, and the other goes to waste. So you'll want one class that gives a bunch of skill points, and one class that contributes to skills in some other way.

What's your DM's attitude towards non-standard races, and how does he rule RHD and LA to interact with gestalt? It might be worthwhile to be something like a pixie or brownie, to pick up Hide in Plain Sight, plus good size and stat modifiers.

[nedz]

Spellthief // Cleric

Could go for a Cloistered Cleric, but ST gives you plenty of skill points so there is less incentive.

Lots of Cleric spells to augment your skills.

Spelltheif // any arcane caster would work well too — Wizard or Beguiler are good choices because Int.

[kpumphre]

The kind who can break in to a wizards palace and get back out with a few good things all with out being notice, able to pick the pocket of the biggest theif in town while he's out walking

That type of theif

[John Longarrow]

For actual levels, I'd go with something like the following:

L1 Warblade - 1 / Beguiler - 1
L2 Wizard - 1 / Beguiler - 2
L3 Wizard - 2 / Beguiler - 3

You would go Int- and Dex-centric, so that's where you would drop your 18s.

I'd go Human for this, just for the extra skill points and feat.

Between Beguiler and Wizard you should be able to cover just about any contingency. By RAW, with the even levels for Wizard and Beguiler offset you will get a point of BAB every level.

Your big expense will be getting magic items that boost skills. Otherwise you should have plenty of spell casting to cover just about any contingency.

Oddly, replace Warblade - 1 with Marshal -1 and get CHA bonus to DEX would help you more with the stealth. Only tossed Warblade in because it gives you a good solid start to keep you alive.