Dealing with (nerfed)Epic monsters

[Balor01]

So, this will be rather silly question thread, because the idea is to overcome challenge via a plot. But 3.5 is a weird-ass place and PCs can sometimes do strange strange things, so I decided to check this challenge here.

We have a world in which several abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#) roam the lands. They are only of the following three types: Xixecal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#xixecal), Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) and Phateon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phaethon).

These monsters are a bit nerfed. All of their SLAs(and SLAs only) are reduced to SLAs that are an equivalent of level five spell slot. No spells beyond this level may be cast in this setting.

As for PCs ... same restrictions apply to them. No spells beyond level 5. (All caster fanboy screamers need not to comment this part).

So. Lets say that my lvl 20-but-limited-to-lvl-5-spells party decides to take these things on. Can it do any damage? Kill these three?

Also, if we entvine plot and metagame a bit - what sort of way could be made to remove these?

Pun-Pun, Shivering touch and similar BS is banned on sight.

[Mnemnosyne]

Shouldn't actually be that difficult. A mailman build can kill some of all of those in one round, even if limited to 5th level spell slots. Although it will take a lot of feats - 8 or 9 total feats, to be specific.

Orb of fire is 4th level and therefore available. The caster is an Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper that has their capstone, (Incantatrix is better since its four bonus metamagic feats will make up for the feats needed to enter the class) and has Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire). She probably wants Arcane Thesis (Orb of Cold) for later too, but this can be obtained by having an ally manifest psychic reformation to switch the feat. Load up two twinned maximized empowered invisible ocular split ray orbs of fire. Spell slot occupied is: 4 (spell) + 2 (Twin) + 1 (Maximize) +0 (Empower) -1 (Invisible) +0 (Ocular) +0 (Split Ray) = 6th level. If it's restricted to 5th level spell slots and you can't even metamagic things any higher, then add Cooperative Spell for another -1 like Invisible Spell, to drop that to a 5th level spell slot. Or Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration). Or hell, just use a Rod of Twin Spell and knock that down to a flat 4th level spell slot if you want.

A xixecal is takes double damage from fire and its regeneration is overcome by fire, so these spells are gonna do double damage. Maximized empowered orb of fire should do 15d6 (Maximized to 90) empowered (+26.25 average) 116.25 damage. Double that for its weakness to fire, double it again for twin spell, double it again for loading two twinned spells in your ocular spell, and double it again for split ray, for a total of roughly 1860 damage as one full-round action. But let's read the xixecal's ability as favorably as possible toward it: it says fiery weapons, and orb of fire isn't technically a fiery weapon. Ok, in that case it only takes +50% damage because of its fire vulnerability, and the caster has only done 1,395 damage with her full-round action.

If the wizard teleports in, thus gaining surprise, and wins initiative, which she probably will since the xixecal's initiative is only +5, then combat looks something like this: Surprise round: Cast twinned maximized empowered invisible orb of fire, dealing ~174 damage. First combat round: Use full-round action to cast ocular spells, dealing ~1,395 damage. Cast celerity. Cast twinned maximized empowered invisible orb of fire, dealing ~174 damage. Xixecal has now taken ~1743 damage, and is dead. At level 15, the wizard will have a +7 BAB vs. the xixecal's touch AC of 3. The wizard also probably has a positive dexterity score; it is impossible for the wizard to miss except by rolling a 1.

The phaethon would be a tad harder. First, its initiative is +15. If the wizard doesn't win initiative, though, all she has to do is cast celerity and teleport back out. Still, with nerveskitter and whatever other initiative boosters she can scrounge up, plus a decent Dexterity score, she has a decent chance of winning. The wizard would, of course, be using orb of cold as the base spell, since the phaethon has vulnerability to cold instead of to fire. But the real kicker is that the xixecal's resistance to fire 20 is explicitly removed, while the phaethon's resistance to cold 20 is still in place. Each orb would therefore deal 20 damage less, and since we're doing a lot of twinning and multiplying the spells, this would actually wind up causing the total attacks to deal only 1,340 damage, leaving it with 52 HP when the wizard is dazed from the celerity. Well, that just won't do. Add the Piercing Cold feat to the orbs, however, and not only do they ignore resistance to cold, but they also deal double instead of 50% more damage to creatures with cold vulnerability. We can go back to the earlier figure of 1860 damage as a full-round action, and the phaethon is dead. Indeed, if we wanted to overkill the xixecal, we could have used a searing [...] orb of fire on it.

The hecatoncheires is the most challenging purely because it has a positive touch AC due to the +20 insight bonus to its AC, and the fact that it only has a -2 size penalty to AC. That means it has an AC of 18, and our wizard can actually miss on something other than a natural 1. So far, however, we have been assuming a level 5 Wiz/10 Incantatrix. Let's throw five levels of Ur-Priest into the mix. Our 5 Wiz/10 Incantatrix/5 Ur-Priest can now cast Divine Power, bumping her BAB up to +20, plus whatever dexterity bonuses she has.

Now, unlike our phaethon and xixecal, it has no vulnerability to any particular element, but it also has the lowest HP total of the three at only 1048 HP. So, going by the round summary, surprise round: ~116 damage, then in round 1: ~930 damage, followed by celerity and another ~116 for a total of 1162 damage. Now, it doesn't take normal damage from this, and since its regeneration 40 and fast healing 50 would kick in, if the wizard rolled particularly low on his empower dice, it might just be enough to allow it to regain consciousness on its first turn. So the wizard might want to apply the Consecrate Spell metamagic to her spell, making it a Good-aligned spell that will overcome the hecatoncheires' regeneration. Or, bring along an ally who, as soon as the hecatoncheires is knocked unconscious from the wizard's assault, will step forward and coup de grace it with a good-aligned weapon.

[(Un)Inspired]

There's probably some simple ways to get around the "no higher than level 5 spells" problem.

Binding Zceryll can let you summon monsters as up to SM IX with the pseudonatural template. Even losing out on your summons more powerful SLAs you should still be about to do some good work with them by shear weight of numbers.

Your DM probably won't allow it but you should see if you can get psionic powers of over. 5th level.

Hmmm a mystic ranger is really ruinous in a game like this. Load up SotAO and you have a character as strong as the strongest wizards in the setting but with better bab and some bonus feats. It might be difficult to chaos shuffle them into something useful though...

[Mnemnosyne]

Oh hey, just thought of another option. Make an ubercharger build that can get 1700 or more damage in one attack, for example this one (http://web.archive.org/web/20071216022014/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662). Drop five levels from that build in a way that won't hurt the damage potential enough to drop the first attack below 1700. Replace them with Ur-Priest levels. Cast divine power to get your BAB back up to +20, and cast quickened surge of fortune (probably using a metamagic rod of quicken) to guarantee a natural 20 on your next attack roll. Charge. Deal enough damage to kill the target on first hit, which was guaranteed by having a natural 20. Make sure you have an appropriate weapon to have overcome the target's regeneration.

[Balor01]

First a reaction image:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UPvjPe4vcPY/S_bf3ljh0RI/AAAAAAAAAN0/oPlBs9vdXo8/s1600/kijinnmaru-inconceivable.jpg

Second, thanks.

Third. Adding this limitation:

- core + single splatbook to build character (except for caster spells)
- all items
- single template

Also, you guys are effing horrid.

[(Un)Inspired]

What's you're DM's ruling on artificers?

You say all items are allowed. An artificers could make minced meat out of these guys without a single spell...

[A_S]

If you're looking for slightly lower-op kinds of solutions:
For all its monster stats, the Xixecal and Phaethon hilariously have no real way of dealing with a flying opponent with long range attacks. Well, the Xixecal can summon White Dragons, and the Phaethon can cast crappy fire spells, but those shouldn't be too much of a problem for a level 20 party.
The Hecatoncheires strangely appears to use nonmagical weapons by default, which means Lesser Ironguard and/or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil will be effective defenses against its attacks. Of course, if it figures out what's going on, it'll just punch you...100 times.
There are a number of no-save-just-lose spells available below 6th level. Spellwarped Wings of Flurry cast every turn can chain-daze a single opponent while doing lots of force damage at the same time, and none of the abominations are immune to non-mind-affecting daze. If these things are going to be encountered alone, that means you have until you run out of spell slots to pound on the thing.
Others have suggested various ways of doing ridiculous amounts of damage in a single round. If you don't have a reliable way to lock them down, these are the way to go. You aren't doomed against a Hecatoncheires, but you certainly are if it gets a full attack off on you.

[Lhurgyof]

Oh hey, just thought of another option. Make an ubercharger build that can get 1700 or more damage in one attack, for example this one (http://web.archive.org/web/20071216022014/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662). Drop five levels from that build in a way that won't hurt the damage potential enough to drop the first attack below 1700. Replace them with Ur-Priest levels. Cast divine power to get your BAB back up to +20, and cast quickened surge of fortune (probably using a metamagic rod of quicken) to guarantee a natural 20 on your next attack roll. Charge. Deal enough damage to kill the target on first hit, which was guaranteed by having a natural 20. Make sure you have an appropriate weapon to have overcome the target's regeneration.

The one with 100 arms and combat reflexes will shred you alive.

[Anthrowhale]

Does Split Ray work with Orb spells? I expect not, because the effect is not technically a ray?

There is an alternative way to get lots of damage using 5 feats. Use a sorcerer with the metamagic ACF with 2 levels of Wyrm Wizard. Use Wyrm Wizard to get access to Favor the martyr, then use Arcane Thesis (Arcane Fusion).

Cast Favor the martyr for immunity to daze, then:

Twin Invisible Cooperative Sanctum Arcane Fusion [Celerity, <L1>]

which turns one standard action into 2 standard actions and 2 L1 spells. Repeat as necessary to translate all your L5+ spell slots into actions and L4- spells before the opponent gets a chance to move. Used for direct damage:

Twin Invisible Cooperative Sanctum Arcane Fusion [Greater Orb, Orb]

inflicts about 150 damage so 10-20 spell slots will knock down epic monsters so long as you have access to the right flavor of damage.

A defensive trick under these constraints is Arcane Thesis (Permeable Form) and:

Extended Persistent Invisible Cooperative Sanctum Permeable Form

which uses an L5 slot to provide perfect flight, complete invulnerability to nonmagical attack forms, the ability to pass through walls, and strong resistances to most magical attack forms. This isn't enough for invulnerability to Abominations, but it is a strong baseline defense.

[Mnemnosyne]

The one with 100 arms and combat reflexes will shred you alive.
Not if it is flat-footed. So you will need a caster ally to teleport you in, and get you back out if you fail to win initiative.


Does Split Ray work with Orb spells? I expect not, because the effect is not technically a ray?
Split ray is relying on ocular spell to turn the orbs into rays, so it can then affect them. Note I only applied it to the ocular spells, not the ones cast individually in the surprise round and celerity action.

All of that said, to the OP, I suggest not throwing in an irritating artificial limitation like that; just adjust your boss monsters so that tactics like that are ineffective, and cover the other weaknesses mentioned. My methods are flashy and incur no losses, but there are other ways to do it, especially if you are willing to incur losses in your forces. And if these monsters are plaguing the countryside, I am sure that the group could get volunteers that are willing to almost certainly die in order to have a reasonable chance at victory. Consider a squad of 1st-level wizards with wands of maximized searing orb of fire at CL 15. Expensive as all the hells, but each one is going to do 180 damage when it hits the xixecal. Replace searing with piercing cold for the phaethon, and replace that with consecrated for the hecatoncheires. Ten guys wielding these will do 1800 damage in the surprise round. Even just searing orb of fire will do it if you bring enough guys to compensate for the unpredictable damage range, and that spell, even with metamagic adjustment, stays below fifth level, and making it requires only the craft wand feat, the searing spell feat, and the orb of fire spell. So, core plus one book for the feat, and spell compendium for the spell. Not only is your limitation irritating because it's artificial and based on which book something is found in, plus it is also an limitation that hits melee far, far harder than casters, but it also fails to achieve your objective.

If you do not intend these guys to be defeated at all in combat, but through plot device, you have various options. My favorite is simply removing their stats entirely; they just win if fought normally. Maybe they're weak on the attack and can only do damage as the stats indicate, but they have infinity to all defenses, for instance, thus allowing the possibility of retreat.

If you absolutely must have them statted, then give them stats to cover those weaknesses. A permanent friendly fire on the creatures, which is still within your fifth level limitations, will prevent ranged attacks from working on them at all, for example. A variety of effects can prevent charging, such as having them surrounded by a permanent solid fog effect, but there are probably other options there too.

[tzar1990]

Adding this limitation:

- core + single splatbook to build character (except for caster spells)
- all items
- single template

Also, you guys are effing horrid.

Why single splatbook for characters EXCEPT caster spells? Casters have enough advantages over Extraordinary classes, and this only makes it worse (Extraordinary classes generally get their power from feats and class features, while casters get their power from spells.) If anything, I'd expect something along the lines of limiting splatbooks Druids, Wizards and so on have available, while leaving access open for characters like Warmages, Fighters and Rangers.

[TuggyNE]

The one with 100 arms and combat reflexes will shred you alive.

It can only hit you with one of those arms on an AoO, though. 2d6+20 is no big. (Even if you let it get one full attack, medium creatures can't be hit by more than 15 of those, or about 450 average damage if your AC is less than 76, which is still bearable at level 20 with a bit of work.)

[Anthrowhale]

Split ray is relying on ocular spell to turn the orbs into rays, so it can then affect them. Note I only applied it to the ocular spells, not the ones cast individually in the surprise round and celerity action.


I see. You can crank your damage 50% higher by adding the feat "enervate spell" to the sequence.