Star Wars vs Warhammer 40k.

[D20ragon]

Alright. On one side you've got Star Wars, stuff of our childhood, the galaxy far far away.
On the other, the GrimDarkness of the 41st millennium.


The Empire vs the Imperium.
Jedi vs Space Marines.
Have at it!

Also, all Star Wars cannon is allowed. Not just the movies. Expanded universe as well.
Have at it!

[hamishspence]

Ah, the return of an old favourite VS-matchup :smallbiggrin:

I'd go with Librarians generally outclassing most Jedi - but Jedi outclassing most non-psychic marines.

The Empire is bigger than the Imperium - enough so that even if individual ship-to-ship encounters might be tricky, the Empire could "zerg-rush" the Imperium.

Especially since its FTL is much, much faster.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Me and Silus Crow were spitballing this the other day.

"Your Emperor SUCKS!" - both sides

We agreed that power swords would block lightsabers, if only for the entertainment for duels. And, while the Empire is bigger than the Imperium, the Imperium does have a larger standing army.

And, of course, Vader versus Abaddon.

[D20ragon]

Me and Silus Crow were spitballing this the other day.

"Your Emperor SUCKS!" - both sides

We agreed that power swords would block lightsabers, if only for the entertainment for duels. And, while the Empire is bigger than the Imperium, the Imperium does have a larger standing army.

And, of course, Vader versus Abaddon.

And, of course, the Imperium is far more military focused then the Empire.

What about the basic troops? Imperial guard, or clone(and storm) troopers?
Droids?
And as far as Jedi vs non-psychic Space Marines, I'm pretty definite on the Jedi winning.
A Lightsaber would sever a chainsword easily.

[Cheesegear]

We're talking about this very thing in the Fluff thread.

40K does not do space battles. 40K goes out of its way to not fight in space. Old ships are old and nobody knows how they actually work, so, once they're damaged, they're out of commission forever. So, if the Empire tries even a little bit, they can blow the Imperium away without too much trouble. But, if the Imperium are willing to enter the Warp in close proximity of ships that don't have Gellar Fields up, that gets messy, real fast. Unfortunately, using the Warp as an offensive weapon when it comes to ship-to-ship combat in that way is mainly a trick used by Orks who are generally insane to begin with.

In ground-and-pound? The Imperium wins. By a landslide. However, if the Empire simply blows up all the ships in space, ground assaults stop being a thing that exists.

Jedi vs. Space Marines.
Telekines exist in 40K. Master Swordsmen also exist in 40K. Telekine Master Swordsmen also exist in 40K. Space Marines deal with these guys, well, not on a regular basis, but, on basis enough. The disturbing thing is that Space Marines are able to deal with these guys surprisingly easily.

The second thing that you need to realise, is that those Telekines that Space Marines are dealing with on an uncommon basis are playing several leagues above Jedi.

[D20ragon]

Hmmmmm. Forgot about that. Excellent point.

[jseah]

Orbital to surface weapons exist on both sides, energy, kinetics, atomics (or other strategic high-yield weapons).
Fast space travel (with ridiculous delta-vs) and ubiquitous launch capability exist on both sides.

He who controls the orbitals controls the planet.

It DOES come down to who wins in space. Ground forces facing off against even against a severely inferior opponent will be fighting an uphill battle if the orbitals aren't contested.

Stormtroopers and I.G legions are stupid ideas. (except as population suppression forces)
Space Marines and Jedi less so. (you'll always need some sort of special forces capability, blowing everything up is not always what you want)

The most the ground-bound opponent can do is stage a Vietnam and make the planet too expensive to occupy.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Remember, Stormtroopers aren't the Empire's standing army, the Imperial Army is. We don't see the foot soldiers in the movies, but we DO see the walkers. I would say Imperial Guard flak armor is about on par with Stormtrooper armor, but lasguns are inferior to blasters, since blasters are essentially advanced laser weapons.

Also, remember that the Empire's navy fights at a slightly shorter range than Imperial ships, and I think the Imperium has slightly better shields.

[Hytheter]

lasguns are inferior to blasters, since blasters are essentially advanced laser weapons.

Wait, what are lasguns then if not also advanced laser weapons?

[hamishspence]

Blasters are often portrayed as plasma weapons of a sort rather than laser weapons.

Maybe akin to Tau pulse rifles.

Stormtrooper armour may be closer to Carapace Armour than Flak Armour - depending on who's writing. 40K has its own Stormtroopers - that use Carapace Armour.

The GE Navy tends to fight at very short ranges in the EU - for example - WEG. While some sources claim that GE turbolasers are capable of tracking and hitting targets 11 light minutes away or so (several million km) these are the exception - and most sources suggest much closer ranges.

40K can build some ships quickly (Lunar-class cruisers are said to be very easy to build fairly quickly) but not many. Most take longer.

[Rakaydos]

40k torpedos are slow, with hours of tracking time.
Proton torpedos are fast, and carried by individual, highly evasive snubfighters.

How many Tie Bombers would it take to kill a Lunar Cruiser?

[Chen]

I don't know much about the whole 40K universe, but I think in terms of Jedi vs Space Marine, people are overestimating the Jedi. The average Jedi (not your Yoda's or your Mace Windu's) would get wrecked by a Space Marine shooting his bolter at them. I can't see how a lightsaber would deflect a bolter round and it would probably just cause it to detonate which I'm sure wouldn't be good for the Jedi. Considering how fast they can put bolts downrange, your average group of Jedi would get torn to shreds before they could close. If it got to melee combat it's probably a different story (lightsabers > chainsword) but just getting there would be problematic.

[GloatingSwine]

This has been done before, repeatedly.


The two are roughly at parity when it comes to their tactical firepower, but Star Wars hyperdrive is faster and more reliable than Warp travel, which makes them far better able to deploy forces in strength where required.


The GE Navy tends to fight at very short ranges in the EU - for example - WEG. While some sources claim that GE turbolasers are capable of tracking and hitting targets 11 light minutes away or so (several million km) these are the exception - and most sources suggest much closer ranges.

True, but they can also use hyperspace to control their engagement range. At the Battle of Endor the rebel fleet jumps in close enough to their optimal engagement range that they have only minutes to deduce the existence of the trap and have to use emergency manoeuvres to avoid a terminal engagement.

Having significantly longer ranges than your opponent only matters if you can ensure he stays there, it doesn't benefit you much if he can appear right next to you out of empty space.

[Reverent-One]

I don't know much about the whole 40K universe, but I think in terms of Jedi vs Space Marine, people are overestimating the Jedi. The average Jedi (not your Yoda's or your Mace Windu's) would get wrecked by a Space Marine shooting his bolter at them. I can't see how a lightsaber would deflect a bolter round and it would probably just cause it to detonate which I'm sure wouldn't be good for the Jedi. Considering how fast they can put bolts downrange, your average group of Jedi would get torn to shreds before they could close. If it got to melee combat it's probably a different story (lightsabers > chainsword) but just getting there would be problematic.

On the other hand, Bolters are more vulnurable to a Jedi's TK, whether simply being nudged off-course or straight thrown back to sender.

[D20ragon]

My thinking exactly. Or even the gun itself could just be twisted or meddled with via TK in order to render it useless.
After which melee would occur, and I think the Jedi would win that.
Also, how fast does a shot from a blaster travel compared to that of a bolter?

[hamishspence]

True, but they can also use hyperspace to control their engagement range. At the Battle of Endor the rebel fleet jumps in close enough to their optimal engagement range that they have only minutes to deduce the existence of the trap and have to use emergency manoeuvres to avoid a terminal engagement.

Using hyperspace jumps in the middle of a fight situation - "microjumps" is somewhat risky - hyperdrives are hard to control over short distances.

However - Star Wars ships have very good sublight acceleration, and 40K ships very bad acceleration and manueverability - so "closing the distance" will still be easier for the GE.

[The Glyphstone]

Can someone please just go find and link the start of the 200+ page mega-thread we had on this exact topic?
(Okay, Star Trek was also involved there, but still).

[hamishspence]

Can someone please just go find and link the start of the 200+ page mega-thread we had on this exact topic?
(Okay, Star Trek was also involved there, but still).

The start of the most recent version of the mega-thread (has links to previous threads) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217915)

[Brother Oni]

On the other hand, Bolters are more vulnurable to a Jedi's TK, whether simply being nudged off-course or straight thrown back to sender.

Using the depicted rate of fire for bolters from Space Marine (240 rpm), you're looking at Neo from The Matrix levels of bullet deflection, something I think most Jedi aren't capable of.

Canonically, Jedi have issues with high ROF weapons, droideka (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Droideka) weapon platforms for example and explosive tipped rounds aren't going to be much easier to deflect than blaster bolts (they would probably be disintegrated harmlessly by light sabres though).

This isn't getting into weapons like heavy bolters (~580 rpm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHiEBAttKiw&feature=player_detailpage#t=29)) or storm bolters (480 rpm) though, which have higher rates of fire than a standard bolter.


My thinking exactly. Or even the gun itself could just be twisted or meddled with via TK in order to render it useless.


If Jedi were capable of that level of control in combat situations then why do we never see it in universe? Even Vader simply force pulled Han Solo's blaster rather than crumple it.

As a projectile weapon, bolters are held quite firmly to compensate for the recoil, something that isn't as applicable for blasters, which I believe are a plasma weapon.


Can someone please just go find and link the start of the 200+ page mega-thread we had on this exact topic?
(Okay, Star Trek was also involved there, but still).

Edit: Hamish beat me to it.

[Reverent-One]

Using the depicted rate of fire for bolters from Space Marine, you're looking at Neo from The Matrix levels of bullet deflection, something I think most Jedi aren't capable of.

Canonically, Jedi have issues with high ROF weapons, droideka (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Droideka) weapon platforms for example and explosive tipped rounds aren't going to be much easier to deflect than blaster bolts (they would probably be disintegrated harmlessly by light sabres though).

You're right to an extent, but droideka's fire blaster bolts, which can't be force pushed, requiring them to be deflected with their lightsabers. My point was their TK would be more useful against projectiles than their lightsabers for the reasons you mentioned.

[Boci]

40K does not do space battles. 40K goes out of its way to not fight in space. Old ships are old and nobody knows how they actually work, so, once they're damaged, they're out of commission forever. So, if the Empire tries even a little bit, they can blow the Imperium away without too much trouble. But, if the Imperium are willing to enter the Warp in close proximity of ships that don't have Gellar Fields up, that gets messy, real fast. Unfortunately, using the Warp as an offensive weapon when it comes to ship-to-ship combat in that way is mainly a trick used by Orks who are generally insane to begin with.

Huh? I don't know that much about the Imperium so I may have missed something, but what you are describing sounds like archeotech. Does standard Imperial Navy ships build include archeotech components? I'm pretty sure they don't. There's decomissioned models, which makes no sense if they cannot reliable build combat ships. Where are you getting the idea that the Empire could easy take out the Imperium battle fleet and the Imperium would have no way of replacing them? There are plenty of military ship yards in the Imperium.

Also about Jedi vs. Space Marines. The precedent set by Order 66 does not bode well for the Jedi.

[hamishspence]

And, indeed, some ships have been built above Feral worlds, from the raw materials mined by the residents and lifted up into orbit by the builders.

[Rakaydos]

My understanding is that Jedi had problems with Droidikas, not because of the RoF nessisarally, but because the jedi rely on turning the enemy's firepower back on it, and the droidika's shield can take anything the droidika can dish out (and probably block lightsabers, too)

While high RoF wears the jedi out faster, it's the shield that keeps the jedi from killing it before it matters.

[hamishspence]

In TCW we do see Jedi taking out Droidekas by attacking them while they're still rolling (so, shield down)- or rolling "droid popper" electromagnetic bombs underneath the droideka, slowly enough to slip through the shield.

It seems that those shields work much like Dune ones.

[Tanuki Tales]

To add to everything already mentioned:

Named, important Force users are going to practically wreck anything from 40k that aren't on the same level as one of the Primarchs and even then, there are Jedi and Sith who would give them a good fight and there are some who could beat them one on one.

But they should hard stop as soon as you get up to anything approaching the Daemon Princes, let alone the Void Dragon or the God Emperor. They just don't have any characters who really have feats that put them at more than singular planet level destruction, if that. Their biggest advantage is that their combat speed is above most everyone who isn't a high tier character in 40k or has some kind of time manipulation abilities.

[hamishspence]

We never see them use that kind of speed in a fight though - only to move around, once, in TPM.

I could see their high combat speed being represented by a high Initiative and WS - but top-of-the-line Librarians like Mephiston or Tigurius could probably deal with that.

I'd put the average Jedi Knight on a par with the average Librarian (in terms of combat skill), the average Jedi Master on a par with the average Epistolary, and Big-Name Jedi Masters on a par with notable Chief Librarians.

Going by Deathwatch, Chief Librarians command fortress-breaking power.

[Rakaydos]

Kyp Durran in the Sun Crusher vs Daemon world. Sun crusher win?

The Empire has a LOT of superweapons it's used over the years- Even something relatively sedate, like the Darksaber Plaform or Eclipse SSD, should be able to do a number on any Mechanicus world they find... and the empire can put probe droids across the galaxy to find them.

[Tanuki Tales]

We never see them use that kind of speed in a fight though - only to move around, once, in TPM.

I'm including the entire breadth of Expanded. Using just the movies incredibly gimps Star Wars characters, as their best feats come from the novels, games and comics.

[hamishspence]

The Darksaber was built by the Hutts rather than the Empire.

In theory it would have been more maneuverable than the Death Star and with a better rate of fire.

In practice, the Hutt leader of that clan, failed to realize that "you get what you pay for, and nothing more" - he was cheap - the weapon failed to fire at a critical moment.

That said - if the Empire had access to all the superweapons it had ever built- with none of them having been destroyed - it would be pretty terrifying.

The Imperium's Exterminatus weaponry is also pretty terrifying though - as well as various archeotech superweapons it's uncovered and locked away.



I'm including the entire breadth of Expanded. Using just the movies incredibly gimps Star Wars characters, as their best feats come from the novels, games and comics.


True - still, "twenty strikes a second" is above even Obi-Wan's defensive abilities - going by the RoTS novelization.

I don't think the EU usually shows superfast Jedi.

[Boci]

Kyp Durran in the Sun Crusher vs Daemon world. Sun crusher win?

The Empire has a LOT of superweapons it's used over the years- Even something relatively sedate, like the Darksaber Plaform or Eclipse SSD, should be able to do a number on any Mechanicus world they find... and the empire can put probe droids across the galaxy to find them.

Unless they can move at hyper speed I don't think its too much of a problem. They'll do damage, but nothing the Imperium cannot afford to lose. They've already taken out the Necron deathstar IIRC.

[hamishspence]

They've already taken out the Necron deathstar IIRC.

And their own Sun Crusher type weaponry, built in the Dark Age of Technology and commandeered by the renegade techpriests known as the Apostles of the Blind King.

[Kitten Champion]

Can someone please just go find and link the start of the 200+ page mega-thread we had on this exact topic?
(Okay, Star Trek was also involved there, but still).

Because obviously that resolved the matter to everyone's satisfaction.


My thinking exactly. Or even the gun itself could just be twisted or meddled with via TK in order to render it useless.
After which melee would occur, and I think the Jedi would win that.
Also, how fast does a shot from a blaster travel compared to that of a bolter?

As fast as the visual effects department could manage.

I don't think Jedi TK is, on average, sufficiently dexterous enough to scrap Liefeldian guns from a distance. Then again I know next to nothing about the EU unless you count Jedi Academy, Rogue Squadron, and Force Unleashed games. I'm assuming the Force Unleashed is more than mildly hyperbolic, but the EU Jedi could shoot panda-flavoured rainbows from their hands for all I know.

The real issue is the situation, namely how many Jedi and how many Space Marines are there. I could certainly see a Jedi killing a Space Marine, but when you enter tactics into the situation, the Jedi are all sorts of dumb. Of course some EU Jedi is probably a tactical genius Mary Sue, so I'm walking on eggshells over here.

[Boci]

The real issue is the situation, namely how many Jedi and how many Space Marines are there. I could certainly see a Jedi killing a Space Marine, but when you enter tactics into the situation, the Jedi are all sorts of dumb. Of course some EU Jedi is probably a tactical genius Mary Sue, so I'm walking on eggshells over here.

According to my friend who likes EU, it tends to stay true to the established trait of Jedi being to tactical genius what the meteorite was to dinosaurs.

[Rakaydos]

Unfortunaty, Star wars superweapons DO have hyperdrive. The deathstar could fire within a single BGF turn of hypering into the Yavin system- possibly earlier if they hadnt misjumped behind the planet, but lets be generous and say the deathstar needed the full time to charge the laser and hypered behind the gas giant to avoid detection. (which failed)

[hamishspence]

Given that it takes 24 hours to charge the laser- I figured it jumped in with the laser already charged.

That said- if they dialed it down to minimum power - they could fire it over and over at ships - though the DS1's laser was less optimized for that purpose than the DS2's was.

[Rakaydos]

And while I'm a bit fuzzy on the Eclipse's superlaser, I now the Darksaber was stripped down specifically for the anti-ship role. Hyper in, blow a few archeotech grand cruisers apart, and destroy the forgeworld at your leasure.

Though... can you imaging a Khorn posessed Sith?

[Boci]

And while I'm a bit fuzzy on the Eclipse's superlaser, I now the Darksaber was stripped down specifically for the anti-ship role. Hyper in, blow a few archeotech grand cruisers apart, and destroy the forgeworld at your leasure.

Are hit and run tactics standard of the Empire though? I understand that changing circumstances can lead to changing tactics, but then again in Starwars its not as if logic is a common commodity. The Empire built two deathstars to fight the rebels for a start.

[hamishspence]

That of the Eclipse was 2/3 the power of one of the 8 component projectors of the DS1's gun.

It could crack a planet's crust (rendering it uninhabitable) but not punch all the way down to the planet's core.

The Sovereign was a slightly smaller and less powerful Eclipse.

And the Assertor (according to its creator) was supposed to be a similar design, with an even less powerful superlaser - optimized for ship-to-ship battles.

[Brother Oni]

You're right to an extent, but droideka's fire blaster bolts, which can't be force pushed, requiring them to be deflected with their lightsabers. My point was their TK would be more useful against projectiles than their lightsabers for the reasons you mentioned.

Telekinesis would be more useful, I'll agree, but whether it'd be useful enough to make a difference is the question.

Looking at the numbers, there's estimated to be about 10,000 Jedi before the battle of Geonosis. Even if the Jedi achieved a 2:1 kill ratio, they would be wiped out by attrition by the Ultramarines and their successor Chapters alone, never mind all the other Astartes.

While Jedi are quicker than normal people, it's been shown both by Order 66 and the Old Republic games that distraction and multiple angles of attack can overwhelm both their precognition and reflexes.

I'm not saying that Jedi are going to be shot up helplessly by Space Marines, but I am saying that a Jedi strike team charging a tactical squad head on is going to be in for a bad time. A devastator squad would gun them down on the spot, while Jedi would probably have the most chance against an assault squad, assuming no frag grenade shenanigans.


My understanding is that Jedi had problems with Droidikas, not because of the RoF nessisarally, but because the jedi rely on turning the enemy's firepower back on it, and the droidika's shield can take anything the droidika can dish out (and probably block lightsabers, too)


Precognition and enhanced reflexes will only get you so far before not being in the path of fire is the best option. Even without the shield, a Jedi would have to get lucky against 240 double bolts a minute (not sure whether that's per arm or overall) while just one of those bolts has to get lucky.

[Rakaydos]

Hit and run might not be, but terror strikes are. Use the better hyperdrive and a superweapon to gain space superiority, destroy the forgeworld, then hyper out and leave the imperium to pick up the pieces.

[hamishspence]

Even if it was "Jedi vs Librarians" with the Marines being taken on by the rest of the Republic/Imperial Military - they might be outnumbered.

An estimated 10,000 Jedi (Knights & Masters) were around at the time of TPM.

There's 1000 Chapters with maybe 20 or so Librarians in each (except for the Black Templars).

[Tanuki Tales]

True - still, "twenty strikes a second" is above even Obi-Wan's defensive abilities - going by the RoTS novelization.

I don't think the EU usually shows superfast Jedi.

I'll have to go digging, but I do know that from combined media feats, the important force users have relativistic combat speed, which gets pushed up to lightspeed with Force precog.

[Rakaydos]

Even if it was "Jedi vs Librarians" with the Marines being taken on by the rest of the Republic/Imperial Military - they might be outnumbered.

An estimated 10,000 Jedi (Knights & Masters) were around at the time of TPM.

There's 1000 Chapters with maybe 20 or so Librarians in each (except for the Black Templars).

How many Space MArine Battle Barges will be destroyed in space before they can drop marines, though? You cant nessisarally assume every marine will get boots down, especially as Empire worlds have better starfighter defences (to shoot down launched drop pods)

[hamishspence]

I figure that while precog is a huge bonus - there's only so fast one can move without suffering burns from heating the air as one moves through it.

Plus- Jedi are challenged by things without such powers - Grievous and his droids.

Though TCW nerfed the bodyguard droids a bit.

[Boci]

Hit and run might not be, but terror strikes are. Use the better hyperdrive and a superweapon to gain space superiority, destroy the forgeworld, then hyper out and leave the imperium to pick up the pieces.

This is where the differences sheer variance of starwars starts to make any claims difficult. On the one hand, yes, the Empire has been portrayed as this gallaxy ruling military force that could challenge the Imperium and possibly even out maneuver them. On the other hand Starwars also showed us that the Imperium edit: Empire was stupid and beaten by a ragtag group of rebels and some teddy bears armed with stone age weapons (yes I'm aware the conflict continued in the EU).

So if we are using all starwars material, which Empire are we talking about? It cannot be both.


How many Space MArine Battle Barges will be destroyed in space before they can drop marines, though? You cant nessisarally assume every marine will get boots down, especially as Empire worlds have better starfighter defences (to shoot down launched drop pods)

How are the Empire's capabilities relevant to a Jedi vs. Space Marine battle?

[Rakaydos]

Lets say the Dark Empire era- where the cloned Palpatine has a darkside luke skywalker as his right hand man, the Eclipse class, the Dark Troopers, no jedi to speak of, and flying factory ships that could "mine" inhabited worlds to death.

[D20ragon]

Ok. Dark empire it is.

[Tanuki Tales]

I figure that while precog is a huge bonus - there's only so fast one can move without suffering burns from heating the air as one moves through it.

Plus- Jedi are challenged by things without such powers - Grievous and his droids.

Though TCW nerfed the bodyguard droids a bit.

You're using Grievous like he's some kind of low showing. Before he got nerfed by Mace Windu, the guy was manhandling well seasoned Jedi Knights and Masters at the same time and he completely owned Durge and Ventress in a two on one fight. Durge was shown to be able to speedblitz and completely overwhelm Jedi of Obi-wan's caliber and while I'm not very well versed in Ventress, I know that she was a highly competent lightsaber combatant.

Remember, Droids are capable of movement and thought process speeds that can only be approached by Force-amped Jedi and Sith. If they're built for it, of course.

[D20ragon]

True. If we take droids into consideration, there's a lot you can do.
Especially as you can churn them out with no loss of human life.

[hamishspence]

You're using Grievous like he's some kind of low showing. Before he got nerfed by Mace Windu, the guy was manhandling well seasoned Jedi Knights and Masters at the same time and he completely owned Durge and Ventress in a two on one fight. Durge was shown to be able to speedblitz and completely overwhelm Jedi of Obi-wan's caliber and while I'm not very well versed in Ventress, I know that she was a highly competent lightsaber combatant.

Remember, Droids are capable of movement and thought process speeds that can only be approached by Force-amped Jedi and Sith. If they're built for it, of course.

And, in the RoTS novel - this is on the order of 20 strikes a second - not thousands of strikes a second as would be expected with "relativistic speeds".

If Grievous is a match for all but the best Jedi - and Grievous is not hypervelocity - then that lowers what should be expected of Jedi.

[Forum Explorer]

Kyp Durran in the Sun Crusher vs Daemon world. Sun crusher win?

The Empire has a LOT of superweapons it's used over the years- Even something relatively sedate, like the Darksaber Plaform or Eclipse SSD, should be able to do a number on any Mechanicus world they find... and the empire can put probe droids across the galaxy to find them.

Daemon world win. In fact a lot of Daemon worlds don't actually have suns to fire at. (One that does, isn't a proper star. It emits cold and yes I know that doesn't make sense. Daemon worlds don't have to make sense at all).


Because obviously that resolved the matter to everyone's satisfaction.



I remember it being pretty resolved.


IIRC the consensus was that Imperium would utterly destroy the Empire on the ground. In space the Empire were faster, both in subspace and FTL. However they were also much weaker in terms of damage they could take and damage they could inflict. (I think it was estimated that two lance shots would be needed on average to kill a SSD. One for the shields and one for the ship). They also had a much lower range and would be particularly vulnerable to the starfighters of the Imperium ships, so they couldn't even try hiding in the blind spots of the Imperium ships.


Giving the Empire the one-shot EU superweapons might make a difference. It might not. I don't know the EU well enough to say.

[Boci]

Lets say the Dark Empire era- where the cloned Palpatine has a darkside luke skywalker as his right hand man, the Eclipse class, the Dark Troopers, no jedi to speak of, and flying factory ships that could "mine" inhabited worlds to death.

Any word on scale? Imperium has 10,000 space marines, millions of psykers, billions of planets. Do we have any idea of the Dark Empire's scale? Did the writers ever figure out how big a galaxy is?

And yeah, on Space Marines vs. Jedi, Space Marines win. They have vast number superiority, are all trained in strategy, better armour and superior range weaponry. To make that debate have any point you'd have to impose some numerical limits on the Space Marines.

[Brother Oni]

If Grievous is a match for all but the best Jedi - and Grievous is not hypervelocity - then that lowers what should be expected of Jedi.

Didn't Grievious get taken out by a blaster? :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Any word on scale? Imperium has 10,000 space marines, millions of psykers, billions of planets. Do we have any idea of the Dark Empire's scale? Did the writers ever figure out how big a galaxy is?

They did. The GE has some 69 million star systems with "populations big enough to meet the requirements for Imperial representation" and 1.75 million "full member worlds" (prior to RoTJ - after that, it shrunk a lot).

However, there's a lot more inhabited systems than that in the galaxy. As Admiral Ozzel says in TESB "There are so many uncharted settlements" - the estimate in The Essential Atlas is "nearly a billion".

The Imperium's size, however, is usually described as "a million worlds" - only in a few Fantasy Flight Games references, does it become "billions of worlds".

[Kyeudo]

I just want to feed both sides to the Tyranids and call it a win.

[Legato Endless]

Didn't Grievious get taken out by a blaster? :smalltongue:

While he had the "high ground" no less. :smallamused:

[Brother Oni]

I just want to feed both sides to the Tyranids and call it a win.

Especially if midi-chlorians can be digested and comprehended by them. Force capable tyranids would be terrifying.

[hamishspence]

Tyranids do have their own "psychic powers" though - even if they're not really as good as Imperium ones.

[Tanuki Tales]

And, in the RoTS novel - this is on the order of 20 strikes a second - not thousands of strikes a second as would be expected with "relativistic speeds".

If Grievous is a match for all but the best Jedi - and Grievous is not hypervelocity - then that lowers what should be expected of Jedi.

You understand that your flaw is that you're using one specific source to sum up the entirety of the Expanded Universe?

[Boci]

The Imperium's size, however, is usually described as "a million worlds" - only in a few Fantasy Flight Games references, does it become "billions of worlds".

Okay, 90% of my knowledge of the Imperium comes from the FF games.

So it looks like:

Dark Empire advantages:
Speed
FTL precision
More consistent and balanced technology levels
Size (tens of million vs. 1 million)
Super weapons and the potential to still build them

Imperium advantage
Fire power
Military Technology
Military focus
Fanaticism
Strategic combat
Magic (more psykers + the miracles of the God Emperor)
Superior special forces

Did I miss anything?

[hamishspence]

You understand that your flaw is that you're using one specific source to sum up the entirety of the Expanded Universe?

I've read an enormous amount of the Expanded Universe - and I really cannot recall any cases of Jedi moving at relativistic velocities in a duel.

I've got books like The Essential Guide to The Force, The Jedi Path, and so on - read most of the novels & comics - etc.


Okay, 90% of my knowledge of the Imperium comes from the FF games.

So it looks like:

Dark Empire advantages:
Speed
FTL precision
More consistent and balanced technology levels
Size (tens of million vs. 1 million)
Super weapons and the potential to still build them

Imperium advantage
Fire power
Military Technology
Military focus
Fanaticism
Strategic combat
Magic (more psykers + the miracles of the God Emperor)
Superior special forces

Did I miss anything?
That's a fair summary.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Force-user versus grenade launcher. (http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer) The Sith gets knocked around, but isn't seriously hurt. It would be a matter of time before the bolter is yanked out of the Marine's hands and slashed into two pieces.

Also, elaborating on before, blasters do fire lasers. The 'blaster gas' is used to excite the molecules. I guess its actually more like a maser, in that the blast has a clear speed. 40K lasguns are extremely primitive by comparison.

[hamishspence]

Also, elaborating on before, blasters do fire lasers. The 'blaster gas' is used to excite the molecules.

Depends heavily on who's writing - but it's quite common, especially in more recent work - for the blaster bolt to be described as a burst of charged particles.

A bit like an ion cannon - but more concentrated and intense.

They even get called "ionic beams" - in recent novels like Scourge.

[Pesimismrocks]

I'm not a Star Wars or Warhammer 40K expert, but it seems your pitting the space marines in their own vs every power in Star Wars, even from different eras. If the imperium are alien with the Jedi, two incompatible forces, the. We have to consider other allies for the marines and the imperium, like the eldar, tau, orks and chaos. Tyranids on their own would plow through the empire, regardless of their many super weapons.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Ah. I'm going off schematics written for VERY old Star Wars RPG books, if its been retconned since then, I concede my point. Either way, they are WAY ahead of lasguns.

[hamishspence]

Or just have "Inquisitors" in place of "Jedi".

The new Rebels series already has preview images showing us one.

Ah. I'm going off schematics written for VERY old Star Wars RPG books, if its been retconned since then, I concede my point. Either way, they are WAY ahead of lasguns.

How powerful they are, may be more important than "how advanced they are".

If they're both at the "vaporize fist-sized chunks of exposed flesh" level - then they should have the same Str and AP.

[druid91]

Using hyperspace jumps in the middle of a fight situation - "microjumps" is somewhat risky - hyperdrives are hard to control over short distances.

However - Star Wars ships have very good sublight acceleration, and 40K ships very bad acceleration and manueverability - so "closing the distance" will still be easier for the GE.

Having recently read the Thrawn trilogy, Thrawn solved that problem.

You use Interdictor cruisers gravity well projectors to yank ships out of hyperspace as they travel.

One minute the space around you is clear, next two star-destroyers drop out of hyperspace ready and waiting to shoot you.

[hamishspence]

One minute the space around you is clear, next two star-destroyers drop out of hyperspace ready and waiting to shoot you.

It does also come with them being shields down and weapons untargeted.

Thrawn was able to bring them close enough (point-blank) that the lack of targeting didn't matter - and if the enemy didn't anticipate it - the ships could bring their shields up in time to block the incoming fire.

[Trixie]

The problem with this match up is: people look at tactical side, not strategic side. Jedi is inferior to Chief Librarian? Stormtrooper to Space Marine? So what?

Biggest factor is: Empire fully understands its technology and can quickly innovate at it. Imperium has space marines? Ok, we have this (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SD-10_battle_droid). Bigger, tougher, and nastier than space marine. What's that? SM are still somehow more capable? So what - it's a droid, producing it takes a day, not 50 years like veteran SM training. We can produce 10 in time it takes IoM to hand craft a bolter shell. SW universe can win through sheer numbers, not caring about attrition, or through technological innovation, or even both at once.

And it's not like Imperium wouldn't give Empire that time - when every crusade takes 10-20 years (more than it took Empire to build its entire war machine) every single battle, won or lost, will make matters far worse for IoM. You deploy SM? Fine, next battle we will have them fully analysed and dedicated SM killers squad deployed at maximum deficiency. Titans? Just big, shielded walker, time to give Loronar contract for anti-titan bombs, they promise to deliver working prototype in three months. Warp? Oh, wait, better go back to analysis of captured IoM ships and start mass producing Gellar fields.

So on, so on, IoM will always fight completely unknown enemy that thoroughly adapted tactics and equipment since last time thanks to speed of communications and transport. It would be like fighting Tau, but Tau that can actually match numbers with IoM and Tau who go directly from fielding fire warriors to Riptides in decade, not millennium. Individual superiority means nothing when enemy outproduces and outresearchs you by orders of magnitude.

[The Glyphstone]

Force-user versus grenade launcher. (http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer) The Sith gets knocked around, but isn't seriously hurt. It would be a matter of time before the bolter is yanked out of the Marine's hands and slashed into two pieces.

Also, elaborating on before, blasters do fire lasers. The 'blaster gas' is used to excite the molecules. I guess its actually more like a maser, in that the blast has a clear speed. 40K lasguns are extremely primitive by comparison.

Though it's worth pointing out the trooper there is an idiot. He fires a barrage of three grenades, then drops his grenade launcher and charges the laser sword-wielding, lightning-spewing Sith warrior in melee combat.

Admittedly, that is not out of character for the average Space Marine, so in retrospect my point isn't as strong as I thought. But the Space Marine would, at least, have more than three shots in his gun, and for counter-footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-E1RcRvny8), bolter fire rate is closer to the dude with the gatling gun.

[Forum Explorer]

Okay, 90% of my knowledge of the Imperium comes from the FF games.

So it looks like:

Dark Empire advantages:
Speed
FTL precision
More consistent and balanced technology levels
Size (tens of million vs. 1 million)
Super weapons and the potential to still build them

Imperium advantage
Fire power
Military Technology
Military focus
Fanaticism
Strategic combat
Magic (more psykers + the miracles of the God Emperor)
Superior special forces

Did I miss anything?

Well we haven't talked about the Ordo Assassins from the Imperium, the Inquisitors, or the superior interrogation techniques they have.

We also haven't talked about the Total War standing the Imperium is on. For example they lose a million of guardsmen every day without it mattering at all.

[Boci]

The problem with this match up is: people look at tactical side, not strategic side. Jedi is inferior to Chief Librarian? Stormtrooper to Space Marine? So what?

This is a factor, but then see before the varying levels of Empire competence. Also, I can just as easily claim the Empire attempt to copy Imperium tech results in a hoard of demons emerging from the Eye and decimating the Empire, because they have no way of dealing with them.


Well we haven't talked about the Ordo Assassins from the Imperium, the Inquisitors, or the superior interrogation techniques they have.

We also haven't talked about the Total War standing the Imperium is on. For example they lose a million of guardsmen every day without it mattering at all.

That would have been covered under fanaticism and military focus. Fair point about better assassin and inquisitors.


I'm not a Star Wars or Warhammer 40K expert, but it seems your pitting the space marines in their own vs every power in Star Wars, even from different eras. If the imperium are alien with the Jedi, two incompatible forces, the. We have to consider other allies for the marines and the imperium, like the eldar, tau, orks and chaos. Tyranids on their own would plow through the empire, regardless of their many super weapons.

I think we are deliberately excluding the non-human denizens of 40k, because they are much harder to debate about militarily. Ork has WAAAG!, which beats anything, Eldar saw the future and counter the Empire's tactics, Necrons have that star destroying table and other hyper advanced tek, and nids are nids. Tau are about the only over alternative that isn't going to be utterly undebatable.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Though it's worth pointing out the trooper there is an idiot. He fires a barrage of three grenades, then drops his grenade launcher and charges the laser sword-wielding, lightning-spewing Sith warrior in melee combat.

Admittedly, that is not out of character for the average Space Marine, so in retrospect my point isn't as strong as I thought. But the Space Marine would, at least, have more than three shots in his gun, and for counter-footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-E1RcRvny8), bolter fire rate is closer to the dude with the gatling gun.

That DoW cinematic (and the game) RIDICULOUSLY overstates the fire rate of bolters, treating them like SMGs, when they are closer to the depiction in Space Marine.

Anyway, I'm more interested in Force-user versus Inquisitor. Those are closer to the role of Jedi out of a war, anyway.

[Brother Oni]

Force-user versus grenade launcher. (http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer) The Sith gets knocked around, but isn't seriously hurt. It would be a matter of time before the bolter is yanked out of the Marine's hands and slashed into two pieces.

Except that a grenade at point blank range doesn't even kill a helmet-less Republic soldier at 03:40, so I'm not sure what that video proves except that the plasma/thermal grenade has less lethality than a current day frag grenade.

I'm also curious why people think that yanking an ~10-15kg rifle out of the mechanically assisted grasp of a enhanced strength superhuman soldier would be so easy to do.

[Boci]

That DoW cinematic (and the game) RIDICULOUSLY overstates the fire rate of bolters, treating them like SMGs, when they are closer to the depiction in Space Marine.

Anyway, I'm more interested in Force-user versus Inquisitor. Those are closer to the role of Jedi out of a war, anyway.

I'd say inquisitor. They have a better approach, sending acolytes rather than themselves, tend to have more resources, more variety in skill sets, and don't have such an embarrassing track record of being killed off by things they really should have seen coming, IIRC. Jedi will have a higher ceiling though.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Size matters not, dude. :smalltongue:

However, I think the Jedi and Imperial Inquisition have a similar ratio of members who defect..

[Tanuki Tales]

I've read an enormous amount of the Expanded Universe - and I really cannot recall any cases of Jedi moving at relativistic velocities in a duel.

I've got books like The Essential Guide to The Force, The Jedi Path, and so on - read most of the novels & comics - etc.


This is something I found from Shadows of the Empire:


Luke reached out. The Force was here, as it was everywhere, and it was no harder to touch deep in space than it was in the swamps on Dagobah. He let it fill him. The TIE fighters suddenly seemed to be moving slower. Luke’s hands flew over the controls; he moved the stick with sharp and precise movements. Swung to his starboard and lit the lasers, double-tapped the fire button.
Lines of fire lanced out and shattered one, two of the four TIE fighters. The explosion spat a hard spray of wreckage at him as Luke looped away. Shards of the destroyed TIEs sleeted against the X-wing’s transparisteel canopy, a meal and plastic hail.

Being Force amped, Luke's perceptions were brought to the point that he could react faster in his X-Wing than the TIE fighters he was fighting. There's no mention of a targeting computer playing into any of this and we know that TIE fighters use sublight drives, which allow the ships to move at relativistic speeds in space.

[hamishspence]

Being Force amped, Luke's perceptions were brought to the point that he could react faster in his X-Wing than the TIE fighters he was fighting. There's no mention of a targeting computer playing into any of this and we know that TIE fighters use sublight drives, which allow the ships to move at relativistic speeds in space.

Not usually in combat though. 2 months to travel 1 light-week (so, 1/8 the speed of light) is about the fastest speed I've seen mentioned - and that's when a ship is trapped outside a system by an interdiction field.

I'd go more with what we actually see in the movies, for the kind of speeds Luke is reacting to.

[Tanuki Tales]

Not usually in combat though. 2 months to travel 1 light-week (so, 1/8 the speed of light) is about the fastest speed I've seen mentioned - and that's when a ship is trapped outside a system by an interdiction field.

Can you prove that they are not moving at relativistic speeds in ship to ship combat?


I'd go more with what we actually see in the movies, for the kind of speeds Luke is reacting to.

So you're basically admitting that you're taking a bias towards what was shown in the six movies instead of what has been shown in the peripheral materials?

[Boci]

So you're basically admitting that you're taking a bias towards what was shown in the six movies instead of what has been shown in the peripheral materials?

As oppose to you, who are being biased towards the peripheral materials? Also isn't the rule of thumb movie cannon overrides non-movie cannon?

[hamishspence]

Unless the peripheral materials are extremely unambiguous about what's been achieved- yes- I go with whatever doesn't drastically contradict the movie depictions.

As well as movie tie-ins, like the novelizations.

I take a "minimalist" approach to both sides.

Keep in mind that with prescience, we can have Luke outfight things without his hands moving at near-lightspeed.

[Trixie]

We also haven't talked about the Total War standing the Imperium is on. For example they lose a million of guardsmen every day without it mattering at all.

And? Empire can match it on pretty much peace footing. Enemy throwing billions of completely expendable troops at you on each planet? That was clone wars, won by considerably less militarized Republic. Empire on war footing will outproduce IoM on such laughably big margin it's not even funny. Consider: they build Death Star. On peanuts from budget Emperor could reliably hide from the Senate. Something as large as thousands of hive worlds, in just a few years.

Then they build another, even larger, much faster.

I wouldn't be surprised if that alone matched industrial war output of IoM ever since great crusade. I don't remember anything comparable in Imperium, million marines and tens of thousands of warships add to much smaller figure.

[hamishspence]

If you believe The Essential Guide to Warfare, clones numbered in the millions, not billions, and were heavily supplemented by planetary militia.

In TCW, "buying another 6 million clones" is treated as a really big deal.

[Boci]

And? Empire can match it on pretty much peace footing. Enemy throwing billions of completely expendable troops at you on each planet? That was clone wars, won by considerably less militarized Republic.

You got a source for that number, because I remember a troublesome point being the clone army was far to small, measuring in the mere millions.

[hamishspence]

TEGTW has the period of it being 1 million, be only near the start of the war- with it growing rapidly past that point.

Still - the EU is consistently minimalistic with respect to fleet sizes and army sizes.

[shadow_archmagi]

Oh, cool, this thread figured out writers have no sense of scale really early.

[hamishspence]

Oh, cool, this thread figured out writers have no sense of scale really early.

Seeing as neither side's writers really have a sense of scale - does it cancel out? :smallamused:

[Boci]

Seeing as neither side's writers really have a sense of scale - does it cancel out? :smallamused:

To be fair I think 40k has a slightly better sense of scale, but then Starwars has slightly less severe technological stagnation. Tech-heresy only gives you so much leeway...

[Trixie]

And last strategical consideration: occupying worlds.

What if IoM tries to occupy Empire world? Assuming they can do it (planetary shields completely shut down all but largest attacks), IoM commander will start by slaughtering all aliens. Then all droids and computers (abominable AI). Then every single proponent of democracy.

Then will stand puzzled why now every single human left alive hates him and considers him a bloody handed barbarian and a tyrant. And why people who hated Empire before will now do anything possible to go back to Palpatine's rule. Guerilla war? Would be fought by highly educated, intelligent humans who can make IG lives a complete hell due to ingenuity and technology IG troops from feral worlds never even imagined.

In reverse - Imperial population will be introduced to technocratic rule of law, *gasp* free speech, consumer goods they will never even dreamed of, and lenient force that will look downright angelic next to regular IoM institutions.

Imagine - stormtroopers in depression because their worst attempts at oppressing population will be meet with flowers and marriage proposals :smallbiggrin:

Fact is - Tau can bribe IoM planets away, and Empire has vastly more to offer than blueskins, better suited to humans and more tempting. Traitors would be almost entirely one-sided once first news about IoM and their atrocities will reach holonet.


This is a factor, but then see before the varying levels of Empire competence. Also, I can just as easily claim the Empire attempt to copy Imperium tech results in a hoard of demons emerging from the Eye and decimating the Empire, because they have no way of dealing with them.

Yeah, how about no, for one, you need a really big ritual to make even possible for daemons to materialize for even a few seconds, two, Codex:Daemons has a story of peasant population beating daemon invasion back. If torch wielding mob can do it, professional military force certainly will.

Oh, and another strategic factor, IoM humans live in so crapsack world even chaos looks promising to them, but all you need to generate outright revulsion to chaos in Empire and everyone policing their neighbours is simple explanation what Khorne or Nurgle do to people. Only worst off, most desperate people in Empire would even have second thoughts about chaos.

[Kyeudo]

The only question to be resolved is this: Can the Star Wars universe hold orbital supremacy against the Imperium of Man? The Imperium of Man has enough ground power that they can crush anything the Star Wars universe can field through sheer numbers if they want. After all, rounding errors on the Imperial census lose the population of whole planets.

Deploy one of the Martian Titan legions and it will make Hoth look like a cake walk.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair I think 40k has a slightly better sense of scale, but then Starwars has slightly less severe technological stagnation. Tech-heresy only gives you so much leeway...

Didn't they invent the first blaster twenty thousand years BBY, with it being functionally unchanged ever since then? At least the Imperium has only been in (official) technical stagnation for ten thousand years...

[Boci]

Yeah, how about no, for one, you need a really big ritual to make even possible for daemons to materialize for even a few seconds

I'm pretty sure there are more than one entry route for demons into the materium. The Imperium at least has an idea on how to avoid this (and can handle a stray demon/demon host when one does pop in), the Empire would be operating blind.


two, Codex:Daemons has a story of peasant population beating daemon invasion back. If torch wielding mob can do it, professional military force certainly will.

Without faith in the god emperor? Superstition and pray are very powerful in the 40k verse, but not the starwars one.

You are correct about defectors, but the Starwars universe is not united. People will not leave the Empire of the Imperium, but they may leave the Empire for other factions within the Starwars verse.
I also do question your notion that all starwars citizens will be immune to the corrupting power of chaos. Maybe less pronte to khorne, but they are still scarred of death (neurgal), they still enjoy pleasure and they still scheme. Chaos doesn't make sense to us, but it does make sense to the people who accept it, and they don't always have crappy lives.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Blaster technology has VASTLY improved, but yes, Star Wars is pretty much in technological limbo.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm sure all those stiff-collared elite officers of the big fearsome Empire who were all glowing with pride over their precious Death Star would be disillusioned when the average Imperium of Man's citizen responds to potential annihilation at the hands of their terrifying super-weapon with indifferent yawns.

[Trixie]

If you believe The Essential Guide to Warfare, clones numbered in the millions, not billions, and were heavily supplemented by planetary militia.

In TCW, "buying another 6 million clones" is treated as a really big deal.

One, I was referring to droids, two, please no Travissty here. Clone fleet alone would require dozens of millions of clones to crew, not to mention trying to garrison Coruscant with clones (which was done) which would take at least hundred million strong force.

Besides, better meta sources like Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones or The Story of General Grievous state the numbers were in hundreds of thousands of divisions, 'million clones' is completely laughable number largely pushed by one writer that was fired, anyway.


You got a source for that number, because I remember a troublesome point being the clone army was far to small, measuring in the mere millions.


Quintillions (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army#Formation_of_the_Confederacy _of_Independent_Systems) of battle droids - which is far more than largest number ever brought for IG.

[Boci]

Quintillions (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army#Formation_of_the_Confederacy _of_Independent_Systems) of battle droids - which is far more than largest number ever brought for IG.

Fair enough. So according to one number, there's no possible way the Empire could win, and according to another number there's no possible way the Empire could lose. Cool.

Also gotta love how you take the time to point out how laughable "millions" is, but then throw out Quintillion with a straight face.

[Rakaydos]

Quintillions (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army#Formation_of_the_Confederacy _of_Independent_Systems) of battle droids - which is far more than largest number ever brought for IG.

-source: Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections

Arnt those books the ones that give star wars weapons ranges in light minutes?

[Rakaydos]

A more accurate number would be to figure out how many clone troopers are in a division, and then use the "tens of thousands of divisions" number... and then the "Our droid armies outnumber the clones 100 to 1" statement. Should be worth at least a fermi approximation.

[Trixie]

Didn't they invent the first blaster twenty thousand years BBY, with it being functionally unchanged ever since then? At least the Imperium has only been in (official) technical stagnation for ten thousand years...

First, how is that proof of anything? China armed soldiers with rifles thousand years ago, does it mean Navy Seals have archaic arms? Due to identical name?

Second - what stagnation? :smallconfused:

You're confusing lack of ability with lack of need. Rebels field X-Wing? Empire responded by fielding TIE Defender, fastest, most heavily armed starfighter with miniaturized shields and hyperdrive two years later. Rebels gained ISD equivalent in Calamarian cruisers - Empire designed and build first Executor class SSDs equally short time later.

Then you have all other projects - Dark Troopers, Thrawn's accelerated cloning (which would make IG green with envy), Death Stars, Sun Crusher, Empire designed and fielded vastly more advanced arms than what they had at peace period every time they needed them. It would be exactly identical against IoM.


You are correct about defectors, but the Starwars universe is not united. People will not leave the Empire of the Imperium, but they may leave the Empire for other factions within the Starwars verse.

Who? :smallconfused:

"We're being attacked by enormous war machine utterly bent on killing every single alien and droid they see, with every non-conformist human on top of that, do we A) rebel and be left entirely on their mercy, or B) beg Palpatine for protection and extra troops while throwing thanksgiving parades to convince him"?


I also do question your notion that all starwars citizens will be immune to the corrupting power of chaos. Maybe less pronte to khorne, but they are still scarred of death (neurgal), they still enjoy pleasure and they still scheme. Chaos doesn't make sense to us, but it does make sense to the people who accept it, and they don't always have crappy lives.

Nurgle and Slanesh are literally worse than death. Medicine and entertainment are so advanced in SW that few would seriously consider becoming rotting bag of pus instead. Says volumes about IoM that some see it as preferable fate.

[The Glyphstone]

-source: Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections

Arnt those books the ones that give star wars weapons ranges in light minutes?

Somehow it doesn't surprise me that [Karen Traviss] * (-1) = [Curtis Saxton].

[Boci]

Who? :smallconfused:

"We're being attacked by enormous war machine utterly bent on killing every single alien and droid they see, with every non-conformist human on top of that, do we A) rebel and be left entirely on their mercy, or B) beg Palpatine for protection and extra troops while throwing thanksgiving parades to convince him"?

Rebels, neutrals, the Hutt. I mean the Imperium and Empire are going to be keeping each other busy regardless of who wins, and the winner will be weakened.


Nurgle and Slanesh are literally worse than death. Medicine and entertainment are so advanced in SW that few would seriously consider becoming rotting bag of pus instead. Says volumes about IoM that some see it as preferable fate.

That's not how chaos works. Anytime someone dying begs for more live, they have the potential to attracts Negal. They don't have to be dying of disease, just dying. And yes, they are worse than death, but mortals do not always realize this.

People in starwars fall to the darkside, so they will also fall to chaos, and in far greater numbers.

[Traab]

We're talking about this very thing in the Fluff thread.

40K does not do space battles. 40K goes out of its way to not fight in space. Old ships are old and nobody knows how they actually work, so, once they're damaged, they're out of commission forever. So, if the Empire tries even a little bit, they can blow the Imperium away without too much trouble. But, if the Imperium are willing to enter the Warp in close proximity of ships that don't have Gellar Fields up, that gets messy, real fast. Unfortunately, using the Warp as an offensive weapon when it comes to ship-to-ship combat in that way is mainly a trick used by Orks who are generally insane to begin with.

In ground-and-pound? The Imperium wins. By a landslide. However, if the Empire simply blows up all the ships in space, ground assaults stop being a thing that exists.



Is this part about space fights true? If so then I have to give it to the star wars empire. Even if they take terrible losses in space battles to do it, the galactic empire has several notable shipyards to keep replacing lost ships, and the imperium does not. Once they have space control, the imperium loses hard.

[Boci]

Is this part about space fights true?

Not according to me and hamishspence.

[Rakaydos]

Hmm... Nergal plague vs Bacta. Who wins?

[Kyeudo]

Quintillions (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army#Formation_of_the_Confederacy _of_Independent_Systems) of battle droids - which is far more than largest number ever brought for IG.

A counter to your quote:



It has been claimed that for every star visible from the surface of Terra, there are a hundred million Imperial Guardsmen waging war on some distant world in the Emperor’s name, though nobody could possibly know how many Imperial Guardsmen there truly are at any one moment, so vast are their numbers and so quickly do those numbers change.


And that's just the manpower currently in a warzone. There are billions more garrisoning various worlds of strategic importance and the trillions more in the Planetary Defense Forces.

[Tanuki Tales]

As oppose to you, who are being biased towards the peripheral materials? Also isn't the rule of thumb movie cannon overrides non-movie cannon?

My "bias" doesn't cut the characters off at the knees to adhere to the inferior medium when it comes to displaying characters of superhuman capabilities. Movies are still vastly outperformed by written fiction, sequential graphic art and even animation when it comes to displaying things outside the realm of possibility.

And Star Wars canon is a complete mess, dictated by a self-important director who believed into his own hype too much and the people who loyally swear to his outlook. This is the one case where you'll find me going against the grain of rule of thumb when it comes to canon because otherwise you're using the lowest showings possible.

[Boci]

My "bias" doesn't cut the characters off at the knees to adhere to the inferior medium when it comes to displaying characters of superhuman capabilities.

Its still a bias, and no better than hamishspence. I have no problem with starwars receiving a power boost, mainly because this discussion would be boring without it. But no one is required to side with the EU over the movies. The jedi need the force and light sabres. Superhuman physical capabilities are not compulsory.

[Trixie]

Somehow it doesn't surprise me that [Karen Traviss] * (-1) = [Curtis Saxton].

Yeah, someone with Doctorate in Astrophysics or author who was fired for throwing her petty vendettas everywhere and obsessive correcting of everything, George Lucas included, in her works.

Tough choice :smalltongue:

And anyway, if we're pulling Travissty and her one million, sure, I can draw on a short stories where Space Marines are being easily killed by spear wielding primitives and another one where half of IG regiments are stated to be stone axe wielding Neanderthals from feral worlds, and declare walkover for Empire. But you know what, you eliminate stupid outliers in VS discussions, not cling to them.


And that's just the manpower currently in a warzone. There are billions more garrisoning various worlds of strategic importance and the trillions more in the Planetary Defense Forces.

Nope, we actually know upper limit by way of Cadia, the most militarized world in IoM. Not even billion IG troopers, and everyone else fields much smaller IG force.

Also, there is the fact that if you exclude Hive Worlds (~32.000) most of other IoM planets are lucky if they can mobilize a regiment of IG every generation, if that, and quite a few of those are spear armed feral worlds regiments.

[LordHavelock]

The Grand Imperium of Man does in fact replace ships, it's just that the largest ships are the oldest because they also take the longest to build (and aren't ever really 'destroyed' according to convention). Contrary to popular belief, the Imperium actually does update it's technology, but the reason it's seen as stagnating is because it only does so as a function of the evolution of religious dogma, motivated by the most extreme need, as compared to our own geometric rate of technological innovation.

As it happens, Star Wars is much the same way, with blaster technology being relatively unchanged for the last several thousand years, or at least functionally the same, if you believe source material for the various games (and since we're looking at a lot of EU material here, I don't think that's an unfair measuring stick).

I think the Galactic Empire's got a decent shot though, because logistically they're a lot better motivated and focused than the hugely corpulent bureaucracy that manages the IoM. Planetary defense forces and individual Imperial Guard legions are sure to fall prey to focused attack by the Empire, but the raw numbers seem to support that the IoM can afford those losses, and in fact suffers them just about every time a new Waaaagh! rolls around. Compare that to the kind of resistance the Empire is going to meet when they get to a Fortress World, which guard key strategic sectors and passages. That I think is where any campaign against the IoM is going to stall, but if there's a constant in the 40k universe, it's that despite having the resources to annihilate one or more various rival factions, the nature of the IoM prevents bringing them to bear to sufficiently exploit any weakness and so I don't think there's going to be a true victory on the IoM's side either.



Nope, we actually know upper limit by way of Cadia, the most militarized world in IoM. Not even billion IG troopers, and everyone else fields much smaller IG force.

Also, there is the fact that if you exclude Hive Worlds (~32.000) most of other IoM planets are lucky if they can mobilize a regiment of IG every generation, if that, and quite a few of those are spear armed feral worlds regiments.

Perhaps, but what is "quite a few" to the Grand Imperium of Man? I mean, if you want to talk about Space Marines being overwhelmed by spear wielding savages, what about the highly publicized Battle of Endor wherein the 501st was humiliated by feral teddy-bears? I think you're right that we shouldn't be looking at exceptions, rather than the rule. Trouble is, there doesn't seem to be a rule for Star Wars, with different sources citing wildly different numbers for the size of various armies, divisions, etc.

Best numbers I've ever heard for the Galactic Empire are tens of trillions of normal troops, trillions of fleet crew and support personnel, and about a hundredth of that as actual Storm Troopers. That's in one of my Star Wars Saga source books I think, but I'm not sure if that's something we can agree on to use.

[Boci]

And anyway, if we're pulling Travissty and her one million, sure, I can draw on a short stories where Space Marines are being easily killed by spear wielding primitives and another one where half of IG regiments are stated to be stone axe wielding Neanderthals from feral worlds, and declare walkover for Empire. But you know what, you eliminate stupid outliers in VS discussions, not cling to them.

So no quintillion sized droid armies. And yes, we should eliminate the stupid, but even then there is still a wide scope of level available for the capabilities of the Empire.

[Aotrs Commander]

Fair enough. So according to one number, there's no possible way the Empire could win, and according to another number there's no possible way the Empire could lose. Cool.

Also gotta love how you take the time to point out how laughable "millions" is, but then throw out Quintillion with a straight face.

Unusual as it is for me and Trixie to be on the same page, at least the over-estimate means a plausible number for the task at hand. Whereas a mere million is less than a third of the amount of troops used by the British Army over World War II. (And a quarter of the size used in World War I and one-third less than the modern US army...) And, if we believe the figure of 69 million planets in the Empire as our ball-park figure for the number of plaents involved in the Clone Wars, less than one clone per planet... (And less than that, since it includes starship crew...)

Admittedly, that over-estimate is sufficiently high that it is about ten times the entire estimated Imperial population, according to Wookiepedia...

(Though one has to at least assume, given the relative rarity of "quintillion" as word, someone actually gave a cursory look at wikipedia or something...)

If you were to split the difference, though, a figure of trillions for the droid army is probably not unreasonable for that number of planets (maybe a touch on the low side.)




And anyway, if we're pulling Travissty and her one million, sure, I can draw on a short stories where Space Marines are being easily killed by spear wielding primitives

I have never forgotten the fact that, during the brief time I sort of played 40K, it was 100% compatible with Warhammer and Space Marines were quite capable of being killed by goblins...

[Boci]

If you were to split the difference, though, a figure of trillions for the droid army is probably not unreasonable for that number of planets (maybe a touch on the low side.)

Potentially I guess. I mean, these aren't exactly numbers on a scale people are good at working with. The more important point was that if Trixie wants to throw away the stupidly weak, she also has to throw away the stupidly high.

[Aotrs Commander]

Potentially I guess. I mean, these aren't exactly numbers on a scale people are good at working with. The more important point was that if Trixie wants to throw away the stupidly weak, she also has to throw away the stupidly high.

Hence my suggestion of taking the middle ground, which conveniantly between 106 and 1018 gives us an actually credible figure of 1012.

[Boci]

Hence my suggestion of taking the middle ground, which conveniantly between 106 and 1018 gives us an actually credible figure of 1012.

You do realize there a fallacy named after that? Besides its the wrong era, since the OP agreed Dark Empire was a good point for the Starwars Empire to be at, so arguing over the specific size of the droid army isn't too relevant.

[Rakaydos]

A Division is typically 10,000 to 30,000 soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_%28military%29)

Someone linked a statement that the Republic ad 10 thousand divisions of clone troopers

"Our Droid Armies outnumber the Republic clones 100 to 1."
―Count Dooku, to King Katuunko[src]

20,000 x 10,000 =200,000,000 clone troopers
200 million x 100 = 20 billion combat droids.

[Aotrs Commander]

Point of interest: if we take wiki's total number of military/paramilitary troops from modern Earth, we get 75.85 million soldiers, which, as what is likely a large over-estimate, over the ballpark 69 million planets, scales us to 5.23 quadrillion soldiers.

Note also, that to garentee a victory, you assume you need roughly three times the forces: so to take Earth safely via ground was, you'd assume you'd need 225 million soldiers. (Of course, when orbital bombardment is a factor, you would only need to actually take the important bits, as the rest could be battered into submission.)

Still, an interest little number crunch.

[LordHavelock]

Hence my suggestion of taking the middle ground, which conveniantly between 106 and 1018 gives us an actually credible figure of 1012.

That's about on par with the figures for the IG, since IG Regiments run from 10,000 to a few hundred thousand and there billions of worlds in the Imperium supporting anywhere from one to one thousand Imperial Guard Regiments. Total up all the zeros and you get something on the outside of 1020 but you have to figure at any given time there's hardly that many actual soldiers to be accounted for.

That doesn't count Planetary Defense Forces, but then, the worlds of the Galactic Empire have the same thing in their own galaxy (though if many of them are like the Naboo Security Forces . . .) so I guess there's a certain home-field advantage with supplementary numbers.

Point is numeracy isn't going to offer one side or the other a distinct advantage.

[Boci]

Point of interest: if we take wiki's total number of military/paramilitary troops from modern Earth, we get 75.85 million soldiers, which, as what is likely a large over-estimate, over the ballpark 69 million planets, scales us to 5.23 quadrillion soldiers.

Note also, that to garentee a victory, you assume you need roughly three times the forces: so to take Earth safely via ground was, you'd assume you'd need 225 million soldiers. (Of course, when orbital bombardment is a factor, you would only need to actually take the important bits, as the rest could be battered into submission.)

Still, an interest little number crunch.

There's also other factors, like the (presumably) superior military hardware of an invading army with capabilities of orbital bombardment and superior teamwork of a single army. However I'm sure that's cancelled out by home terrain advantage of earth defenders. Or it will turn out the army is allergic to the Earth somehow.

[Tanuki Tales]

Its still a bias, and no better than hamishspence. I have no problem with starwars receiving a power boost, mainly because this discussion would be boring without it. But no one is required to side with the EU over the movies. The jedi need the force and light sabres. Superhuman physical capabilities are not compulsory.

I think it's disingenuous to call the approach of using the EU over just the movies (which I'm not, I'm just using the full breadth of the continuity) as bias, when the movies would make this entire discussion completely moot in favor of 40k.

I reiterate: Practically every impressive thing from Star Wars that would allow them to operate against 40k comes from outside G-canon. People are welcome to use the movies over all the rest of the continuity, as long as they admit they're placing a huge handicap on the Star Wars side.

[Squark]

That's about on par with the figures for the IG, since IG Regiments run from 10,000 to a few hundred thousand and there billions of worlds in the Imperium supporting anywhere from one to one thousand Imperial Guard Regiments. Total up all the zeros and you get something on the outside of 1020 but you have to figure at any given time there's hardly that many actual soldiers to be accounted for.

That doesn't count Planetary Defense Forces, but then, the worlds of the Galactic Empire have the same thing in their own galaxy (though if many of them are like the Naboo Security Forces . . .) so I guess there's a certain home-field advantage with supplementary numbers.

Point is numeracy isn't going to offer one side or the other a distinct advantage.

That's a few orders of magnitude to high, at least for the Clones (the Imperial Army is another matter altogether). The issue is that the Kaminoans only had a single planet. Which means they could only feed so many clones. I'd say 50-60 billion is the upper limit for estimates, assuming the kaminoans had some sort of hyper-efficient process of cloning plants and animals to feed themselves and the clones.

Of course, if the Kaminoans had a dozen planets producing clones, that'd be different. But with just Kamino... yeah, no way you're going to get 1 trillion clones

[LordHavelock]

Personally, I think the deciding factor is the influence of Chaos. The IoM forces are used to dealing with it, they have safeguards against it, and protocols for when those safeguards fail. I think it's always best to assume that for any versus debate that opposing types of magic should be able to affect and potentially counteract one another, which in this context I think means that any given Force Sensitive individual of the Star Wars Universe should have the potential to combat 40k Psykers (and the eldritch power of Chaos) on it's own terms.

Trouble is, the Galactic Empire has a fairly strict "No Force, No How" policy, with Force sensitivity generally being something you keep hidden, never develop, and try to hide (which in 40k is a recipe for Chaos corruption and Demonic Possession) or else selected into the highly specialized and elite branch of the Empire that actually utilizes Dark Side Adepts, who are elite, but not fully realized Force Users as Jedi or Sith (or at least, are more specialized). In the whole of the Galactic Empire you've only got Palpatine, Vader, and Mara Jade (let's say any given Emperor's Hand) who are fully equipped and capable Force Users, whereas any given IG regiment is likely to have a psyker or two in it's retinue.

That means practically the whole of the Galactic Empire's forces are vulnerable to psychic assault, manipulation, and corruption, if not by the Empire, then certainly by the Eldar or perhaps the Tyranids (how is the Empire going to hand Genestealer infiltration?) or especially the Forces of Chaos.

[Boci]

I reiterate: Practically every impressive thing from Star Wars that would allow them to operate against 40k comes from outside G-canon..

The Imperium of Man? Sure. The 40k verse? No.

[Tanuki Tales]

The Imperium of Man? Sure. The 40k verse? No.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

I've already pointed out that all of Star Wars hard stops at Daemon Princes, since at that level and above 40k starts getting Planetbusters, Starbusters, Solar system busters and people start being FTL, along with a ton of hax, while Star Wars peaks at around Moon level with its strongest characters and its hax doesn't measure up as well.

[Boci]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

My point was you said "operate against 40k", and I was just clarifying you presumably meant Imperium of Man.

[LordHavelock]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

I've already pointed out that all of Star Wars hard stops at Daemon Princes, since at that level and above 40k starts getting Planetbusters, Starbusters, Solar system busters and people start being FTL, along with a ton of hax, while Star Wars peaks at around Moon level with its strongest characters and its hax doesn't measure up as well.

A lot of that "hax" is kind of plot specific though isn't it? My suggestion is why don't week keep this more in terms of things readily available 'in genre' or perhaps more specifically, 'in game'. If we're talking about conflict on a grand scale between the two powers without an overarching plot element and narrative, then why not use a sort of mutual gaming convention, which is to say that it's best to compare both settings in terms of how you might see them in their respective games rooted in their own lore.

I mean, it's possible to deploy a Blackstone Fortress in Battlefleet Gothic (40k's spaceship battle game) but even then they're more like set-pieces or scenario specific. Same thing with the Death Star, Palpatine's all-consuming Force Storms, etc.

Better to compare how you think they'd match up if you were to say, stat out 40k in Star Wars Saga mechanics, or crunch up what an Galactic Empire Army List would look like in 40k.

[Tiki Snakes]

The latter might even be possible with the correct FF book. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of such create-a-thing systems spread across the various supplements.

Might even be stuff already online to use, though it loops back round to being simply based on someones opinion, so while fun, I doubt it's likely to settle anything.

[LordHavelock]

The latter might even be possible with the correct FF book. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of such create-a-thing systems spread across the various supplements.

Might even be stuff already online to use, though it loops back round to being simply based on someones opinion, so while fun, I doubt it's likely to settle anything.

Games are built in mind to be balanced, and if they're truly balanced then one side is never going to win more often than another, leaving something like this debate thread in a stalemate if we actually went so far as to stat it out.

However, used as a point of reference when comparing size, scale, or trying to bring in plot-specific elements that blow away even in-universe conventions, it can be a helpful tool for informing further debate.

Take for instance, the fact that in a standard game of Warhammer, you can't count on the Emperor performing a miracle on the battlefield in order to sway the tide in your favor. Or that if you're playing Star Wars Saga, anything like the feats of Force use which sway the course of galactic events are only going to occur because that's the campaign and narrative the GM is following, it's nothing a player can actually count on doing even if they're a Jedi or a Sith. By the same token, I think it's best to leave the more "hax" elements out of play for any given debate.

That said, I just don't think the Empire is going to be able to muster the metaphysical might to combat any of the 40k factions on psychic terms. Especially not the Dark Empire if that's the one we're using.

[Tanuki Tales]

My point was you said "operate against 40k", and I was just clarifying you presumably meant Imperium of Man.

My initial insertion into this thread was to discuss the hypothetical situation concerning what good the strongest characters from the SWU would do against their "main cast" counterpart of 40k. Which was to say that they would cause havoc against anything up until Primarch level and would then be horribly, horribly destroyed by anything above Primarch level.

The terms of engagement were already well discussed and thought out concerning just bog standard troops on both sides going at one another, so I saw no reason to weigh in on any of that.


A lot of that "hax" is kind of plot specific though isn't it? My suggestion is why don't week keep this more in terms of things readily available 'in genre' or perhaps more specifically, 'in game'. If we're talking about conflict on a grand scale between the two powers without an overarching plot element and narrative, then why not use a sort of mutual gaming convention, which is to say that it's best to compare both settings in terms of how you might see them in their respective games rooted in their own lore.

I have honestly no clue what you're talking about.


I mean, it's possible to deploy a Blackstone Fortress in Battlefleet Gothic (40k's spaceship battle game) but even then they're more like set-pieces or scenario specific. Same thing with the Death Star, Palpatine's all-consuming Force Storms, etc.

The Death Star isn't really a plot device, nor are Palpatine's force storms. But it ultimately doesn't matter, since the strongest things from 40k would walk all over the strongest things from Star Wars.


Better to compare how you think they'd match up if you were to say, stat out 40k in Star Wars Saga mechanics, or crunch up what an Galactic Empire Army List would look like in 40k.

Yeah....no. Fluff > Game Mechanics. Trying to argue things from the stand points of woefully inadequate game mechanics hodgepodges leads to nowhere good in regards to versus debates, unless that was the initial premise of the debate.

[LordHavelock]

My initial insertion into this thread was to discuss the hypothetical situation concerning what good the strongest characters from the SWU would do against their "main cast" counterpart of 40k. Which was to say that they would cause havoc against anything up until Primarch level and would then be horribly, horribly destroyed by anything above Primarch level.

The terms of engagement were already well discussed and thought out concerning just bog standard troops on both sides going at one another, so I saw no reason to weigh in on any of that.



I have honestly no clue what you're talking about.



The Death Star isn't really a plot device, nor are Palpatine's force storms. But it ultimately doesn't matter, since the strongest things from 40k would walk all over the strongest things from Star Wars.



Yeah....no. Fluff > Game Mechanics. Trying to argue things from the stand points of woefully inadequate game mechanics hodgepodges leads to nowhere good in regards to versus debates, unless that was the initial premise of the debate.

I'm not suggesting a raw comparison of potential mechanics, which would of course be based only on other people's opinions of what is what mechanic. The point is that fluff has it's place in the fluffier elements of it's own genre, and since you're as likely to see a Primarch on the battlefield as you are Emperor Palpatine, it doesn't do a whole lot of good to actually compare them.

I do actually agree with your point though that the overall scale of 40k does somewhat trump Star Wars, especially at the higher tiers of the in-universe lore. But even in more standard terms, you have to wonder how even the best troops the Empire could offer would fair against a company of Gray Knights, which while not standard fare for the IoM are still more common than say, Imperial Dark Side Force Adepts who they might (and I stress 'might') be able to measure up against.

[Cheesegear]

Couple of points, I wont address anything on the Star Wars side, since that's not my wheelhouse.

40K's Imperium of Man;

Technological Stagnation; It's a fallacy. The Imperium doesn't know how its old, old stuff works. Capital starships fall into this category. However the Imperium builds a lot of escort craft and scout ships, and are redesigning them all the time. This is because scout and escort ships get destroyed. A lot. Capital ships in the Imperium don't really get destroyed, so, they don't build new ones, and they don't bother to learn new technology because they don't have to. If someone comes along and starts blowing away capital ships, the previous 'rebel Magos' who was shouting at Mars to make new starships becomes a Saint. Technology is driven by need. 40K just simply turns that idea up to 11 - like everything else. I'll also point out that capital ships of the Imperium aren't even that big.

The Phalanx and The Rock are 40K Death Stars, and both have been known to destroy entire fleets without even sweating. These are going to be roadblocks for the Empire. Only one thing has made it past the Phalanx in a straight-up fight, and that's only because Necrons can teleport, or however their FTL works.

Psykers vs. The Force; What's the biggest feat that the Force has achieved? I don't know anything about the EU, but, from what I understand it's mostly Telekinesis and occasionally some Divination. In 40K, Psykers can block Titans with TK. Basically, a Jedi needs to be able to stand in front of an AT-AT on the ground, and tear its head off, in a combat situation. Has this been done before? Because that's what Primaris Psykers have been shown to do. If these Psykers go bad (the powerful ones always do), Space Marines need to execute them, which they do. This is the threat that Space Marines go up against. Do Jedi even compare?
Can Jedi mindrape? 'Cause Psykers can, and do. With regularity.

Furthermore; Space Marines vs. Jedi.
How many Space Marines? How many Jedi? Boltguns fire 240 rpm (for reference, the FN P90 fires ~900). Now, again, I wont speak for Jedi reflexes and deflecting bullets, but, Blaster fire seems really slow in the movies. What are Blaster specs?

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm not suggesting a raw comparison of potential mechanics, which would of course be based only on other people's opinions of what is what mechanic. The point is that fluff has it's place in the fluffier elements of it's own genre, and since you're as likely to see a Primarch on the battlefield as you are Emperor Palpatine, it doesn't do a whole lot of good to actually compare them.

The point of comparing them was to show how woefully outgunned the SWU is as a verse compared to 40k. That even if they won the hypothetical battle here, they'd get mudstumped in the war.


I do actually agree with your point though that the overall scale of 40k does somewhat trump Star Wars, especially at the higher tiers of the in-universe lore. But even in more standard terms, you have to wonder how even the best troops the Empire could offer would fair against a company of Gray Knights, which while not standard fare for the IoM are still more common than say, Imperial Dark Side Force Adepts who they might (and I stress 'might') be able to measure up against.

I'd give Grey Knights the nod over anything from the Imperials. Some bog standard psykers have planetary feats. You'd need named Jedi and Sith to contend with that.




Psykers vs. The Force; What's the biggest feat that the Force has achieved? I don't know anything about the EU, but, from what I understand it's mostly Telekinesis and occasionally some Divination. In 40K, Psykers can block Titans with TK. Basically, a Jedi needs to be able to stand in front of an AT-AT on the ground, and tear its head off, in a combat situation. Has this been done before? Because that's what Primaris Psykers have been shown to do. If these Psykers go bad (the powerful ones always do), Space Marines need to execute them, which they do. This is the threat that Space Marines go up against. Do Jedi even compare?
Can Jedi mindrape? 'Cause Psykers can, and do. With regularity.


I'd need to get back to you on raw TK, but I do know that they have feats like completely destroying a continent from orbit, creating force storms capable of leveling moons, mindraping entire planets, etc.

So Star Wars big dogs can match and beat any of the below Daemon Prince psykers from 40k, but they don't get further than Primarchs.

Edit: And it's PIS if bog standard marines can take down anyone with powerful enough TK to beat a Titan, if they're fighting competently.

[LordHavelock]

Couple of points, I wont address anything on the Star Wars side, since that's not my wheelhouse.

40K's Imperium of Man;

Technological Stagnation; It's a fallacy. The Imperium doesn't know how its old, old stuff works. Capital starships fall into this category. However the Imperium builds a lot of escort craft and scout ships, and are redesigning them all the time. This is because scout and escort ships get destroyed. A lot. Capital ships in the Imperium don't really get destroyed, so, they don't build new ones, and they don't bother to learn new technology because they don't have to. If someone comes along and starts blowing away capital ships, the previous 'rebel Magos' who was shouting at Mars to make new starships becomes a Saint. Technology is driven by need. 40K just simply turns that idea up to 11 - like everything else. I'll also point out that capital ships of the Imperium aren't even that big.

Couldn't stress this point enough myself. It's not that the IoM doesn't develop technology, it's that they do so at the progress you would expect for a galaxy spanning religion, because, well . . . that's what technology is to them. Compare how long it's taken for the Catholic Church to embrace scientific theories that actually kind of support their own theology, and then turn it up to 11.



[QUOTE]The Phalanx and The Rock are 40K Death Stars, and both have been known to destroy entire fleets without even sweating. These are going to be roadblocks for the Empire. Only one thing has made it past the Phalanx in a straight-up fight, and that's only because Necrons can teleport, or however their FTL works.

The Death Star itself seems to be more on par with a Space Marine Battle Fortress Monastary, or even the Fortress Worlds like Cadia (of which the Imperium has many) but then, the Empire has one of those too, at least they do later in the timeline (Bastion I think it's called).


Psykers vs. The Force; What's the biggest feat that the Force has achieved? I don't know anything about the EU, but, from what I understand it's mostly Telekinesis and occasionally some Divination. In 40K, Psykers can block Titans with TK. Basically, a Jedi needs to be able to stand in front of an AT-AT on the ground, and tear its head off, in a combat situation. Has this been done before? Because that's what Primaris Psykers have been shown to do. If these Psykers go bad (the powerful ones always do), Space Marines need to execute them, which they do. This is the threat that Space Marines go up against. Do Jedi even compare?
Can Jedi mindrape? 'Cause Psykers can, and do. With regularity.

Depends on where you go in the EU, but generally speaking, no. Jedi don't develop their combat abilities as much as they could along those lines because they're a peacekeeping order, not the militant war-machine of the Imperial Psyker Corps, let alone the Gray Knights or forces of the Inquisition. And the Sith generally don't do much more than the Jedi in terms of raw battle-worthy Force feats because they tend to focus on beating the Jedi themselves, and everything else usually falls into place from there.

In terms of raw feats using the Force, Battle Meditation can be used to influence a fleet or more of Starships to tip the tide of battle, but it's more like a little-push than a guarantee, and even then, only the great heroes of the Jedi Order have every used it on such a scale. Revan apparently could alter the mentality and Force essence of a whole planet given the right opportunity and time, and while that's generally seen to be the effect of the Emperor's hand in guiding humanity from the Golden Throne (just a little touch of the holy spirit, you know?) it's not something Palpatine is ever seen to replicate, or even be aware of, being the heir and successor to Darth Bane who had very different views.

Best example I can think of, Kreia totally mindrapes folks without really trying, and Mace Windu beats an entire droid army up, on his own (without a lightsaber) but these are the legendary and mythic figures of Star Wars Lore. The average Jedi or Sith just isn't going to be able to compare, and what's worse, the Empire doesn't even have a core of Force Users to rely on in battle.


Furthermore; Space Marines vs. Jedi.
How many Space Marines? How many Jedi? Boltguns fire 240 rpm (for reference, the FN P90 fires ~900). Now, again, I wont speak for Jedi reflexes and deflecting bullets, but, Blaster fire seems really slow in the movies. What are Blaster specs?

Slightly slower than lightspeed. Not just anyone can pick up a lightsaber and block blaster bolts (though some folks in the CGI Clone Wars show do it anyway), it requires the Jedi's mix of precognitive battle senses and Force enhanced reaction speeds for any given jedi to do it, and even then, enough blaster fire will overwhelm your average Jedi (as demonstrated in Attack of the Clones). Boba & Jango Fett and other Jedi Hunter types even know tricks to place their shots so that the Jedi/Sith can't deflect or anticipate all of them.

What's more, lightsaber deflection doesn't work as well on solid slug ammunition, because the solid stuff of the slug doesn't just get burned up, but can be melted thus spattering a jedi with molten slag unless they angle their lightsaber and body right (something most Jedi don't know to do unless they've previously fought slugthrowers). Bolter rounds even go the extra step of being miniaturized shaped charges, with a variety of special ammunition all of which is designed to blow up inside of an opponent's body armor in creatively lethal ways. As a rule, Jedi do not wear armor, and it seems to me that most attempts to block bolter fire are going to result in some spectacularly gory scenes whereupon Jedi prematurely ignite bolter rounds a foot or so in front of their next-to-naked (and sometimes naked) flesh.

[Rakaydos]

Can the phalanx or Rock move at reasonable interstellar speed (IE: strategic FTL) If not, well, if we're assuming Dark Empire star wars has time to get Sovrign class SSDs into mass production, it doesnt really matter what Space Marines can do to jedi. Blowing up Mars or Terra would be out of the picture, but the Empire can kill Forgeworlds faster than the Imperium can build ships.

[The Glyphstone]

Psykers vs. The Force; What's the biggest feat that the Force has achieved? I don't know anything about the EU, but, from what I understand it's mostly Telekinesis and occasionally some Divination. In 40K, Psykers can block Titans with TK. Basically, a Jedi needs to be able to stand in front of an AT-AT on the ground, and tear its head off, in a combat situation. Has this been done before? Because that's what Primaris Psykers have been shown to do. If these Psykers go bad (the powerful ones always do), Space Marines need to execute them, which they do. This is the threat that Space Marines go up against. Do Jedi even compare?
Can Jedi mindrape? 'Cause Psykers can, and do. With regularity.


Well, The Force Unleashed's Apprentice can, apparently, pull Star Destroyers out of orbit with his TK, but that might be of dubious canonicity. There is specifically an AT-AT vs. Jedi feat though, and it's even from the Dark Empire era:
(Warning, big)
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/3037750-0991103956-17193.jpg
http://static.tumblr.com/2cqorqp/4ejlxdfqn/26.jpg
Admittedly, Luke is not an average Jedi, but he's also not the peak of Jedi capabilities.

[LordHavelock]

Can the phalanx or Rock move at reasonable interstellar speed (IE: strategic FTL) If not, well, if we're assuming Dark Empire star wars has time to get Sovrign class SSDs into mass production, it doesnt really matter what Space Marines can do to jedi. Blowing up Mars or Terra would be out of the picture, but the Empire can kill Forgeworlds faster than the Imperium can build ships.

I submit that if the Empire is dealing with FTL in the 40k universe, then they're going to run into the same trouble as anyone else. Once again, it depends on which Star Wars author/creator/source you're dealing with, but it's not Warpspeed the way that Star Trek uses it. Here's what Wookieepedia says:


Hyperspace (called darkspace by the Yuuzhan Vong) was the alternate state of existence used by starships to achieve faster-than-light travel. It was a phenomenon not completely understood by scientists; it was alternately described as a parallel universe, an extra dimension of space, an alternate mode of physical existence, or simply the universe as viewed traveling faster than the speed of light.

To me, that sounds exactly like what The Warp is to 40k minus the ever-present threat of mind-raping daemons and less than subtle influence of the ruinous powers when you're inside The Realm of Chaos. It follows then that if the IoM is invading 40k's home turf, then there once conveniently empty realm of hyperspace travel is actually the nightmarish hell that is the Immaterium. Any Star Wars ship travelling through Hyperspace is suddenly going to have to contend with all the horrors and irregularities of Warp Travel.

This is in keeping I think, with the assumption that 40k Psychic Powers and Sorcery is just another (albeit twisted and barely recognizable) expression of the Force. This even has support in the Star Wars Lore, where backwards savage worlds utilize the Force and call it magic or sorcery, and during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion when no one can actually capture their extra-galactic version of the Force.



Admittedly, Luke is not an average Jedi, but he's also not the peak of Jedi capabilities.

Well, that's not Luke at the height of his power, during the Dark Empire saga, but I though he was by all accounts the most powerful Force User to have ever lived, ever.

[Forum Explorer]

Can the phalanx or Rock move at reasonable interstellar speed (IE: strategic FTL) If not, well, if we're assuming Dark Empire star wars has time to get Sovrign class SSDs into mass production, it doesnt really matter what Space Marines can do to jedi. Blowing up Mars or Terra would be out of the picture, but the Empire can kill Forgeworlds faster than the Imperium can build ships.

I think so, but I also think they are on a sort of 'garrison' duty. So they don't move around a lot anyways. However the Imperium certainly wins the planet killing game. Every capital ship can be equipped with exterminatus weaponry already. Which basically takes one shot to kill everything on a planet (or blow the entire planet up, depends on which weapon they put in).

On Jedi vs Inquisitors I'd give it to Inquisitors. The Jedi would win in a fight against a single (average) Inquisitor, but they pretty much always have a retinue of highly skilled and well armed troops with exotic weaponry with them. They also tend to be or have a very strong psyker with them. When it comes to investigating things, well Inquisitors blow it out of the park in comparison. If only because they have the actual authority to ignore laws, morality, and to requisition entire fleets if need be.

[Selrahc]

The Death Star itself seems to be more on par with a Space Marine Battle Fortress Monastary, or even the Fortress Worlds like Cadia (of which the Imperium has many) but then, the Empire has one of those too, at least they do later in the timeline (Bastion I think it's called).

Well, both of the things you mentioned are normally planets, rather than space craft. Not really very comparable. No matter how well fortified a planet is, it can't go and beat up other planets.

The Death Star is a cut above even Space Marine Flagships like the Rock (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Rock#.UyjiV4W8uJA) or Phalanx (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Phalanx#.UyjioYW8uJA). Both of those ships are powerful enough to take on entire fleets of lesser vessels, but don't carry guns strong enough to smash a planet to ribbons.

The best 40k ship to compare to the Death Star is, appropriately enough, the Planet Killer (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Planet_Killer#.Uyji0YW8uJA). The Chaos Flagship that can annihilate planets, or star fleets with its ridiculous armageddon gun.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, both of the things you mentioned are normally planets, rather than space craft. Not really very comparable. No matter how well fortified a planet is, it can't go and beat up other planets.

The Death Star is a cut above even Space Marine Flagships like the Rock (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Rock#.UyjiV4W8uJA) or Phalanx (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Phalanx#.UyjioYW8uJA). Both of those ships are powerful enough to take on entire fleets of lesser vessels, but don't carry guns strong enough to smash a planet to ribbons.

The best 40k ship to compare to the Death Star is, appropriately enough, the Planet Killer (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Planet_Killer#.Uyji0YW8uJA). The Chaos Flagship that can annihilate planets, or star fleets with its ridiculous armageddon gun.

They do however carry vortex torpedoes, which can blow a planet apart.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, that's not Luke at the height of his power, during the Dark Empire saga, but I though he was by all accounts the most powerful Force User to have ever lived, ever.

Not sure, I think it varies tremendously by author, and EU power creep hits in a big way with Old Republic-era characters like the Sith who force-bombed a planet. He's definitely in the upper tiers, though.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, that's not Luke at the height of his power, during the Dark Empire saga, but I though he was by all accounts the most powerful Force User to have ever lived, ever.

That isn't really that impressive a feat to be honest when it comes to force users who are anything to write home about.

[The Glyphstone]

That isn't really that impressive a feat to be honest when it comes to force users who are anything to write home about.

Which was my point. Cheesegear asked about Jedi being able to stand in front of an AT-AT in combat and rip their heads off. I found a picture of a Jedi standing in front of an AT-AT and ripping its head off (sort of).

[LordHavelock]

Which was my point. Cheesegear asked about Jedi being able to stand in front of an AT-AT in combat and rip their heads off. I found a picture of a Jedi standing in front of an AT-AT and ripping its head off (sort of).

The point being that Luke is head and shoulders above the average Jedi even at their peak during the Old Republic, and they just don't do things like that. Luke is the exception that proves the rule.

[The Glyphstone]

The point being that Luke is head and shoulders above the average Jedi even at their peak during the Old Republic, and they just don't do things like that. Luke is the exception that proves the rule.

It seems that Tanuki disagrees.

[Tanuki Tales]

The point being that Luke is head and shoulders above the average Jedi even at their peak during the Old Republic, and they just don't do things like that. Luke is the exception that proves the rule.

No, Luke isn't. He may be heads and shoulder above average Jedi, but he's not heads and shoulders above most of the Force users you'd write home about. I'd need to know the average destructive capacity of an AT-AT to give you a good idea of the weakest Jedi or Sith who could replicate that feat, but I know plenty who could definitely replicate that feat.

[LordHavelock]

It seems that Tanuki disagrees.

I think he actually does but he thought you were disagreeing with him or trying to use that as evidence that he was wrong.

[Cheesegear]

So Star Wars big dogs can match and beat any of the below Daemon Prince psykers from 40k, but they don't get further than Primarchs.

Eh? Imperial-side Primaris Psykers > Daemon Princes. Primaris Psykers are immensely powerful, and are the first line of defense for Imperial Guard fighting Daemons. Basically, an entire Guard regiment points to one guy and says "Protect that guy and we win."


Revan apparently could alter the mentality and Force essence of a whole planet given the right opportunity and time

Any decent Psyker can do that.


Best example I can think of, Kreia totally mindrapes folks without really trying

What's the range though? Psykers can do it over stellar distances. Mindrape opposing starship Captain. Win battle.


The average Jedi or Sith just isn't going to be able to compare, and what's worse, the Empire doesn't even have a core of Force Users to rely on in battle.

Well, the average Psyker in 40K can't open planet-sized Warp portals either. But, the Imperium has numbers. The amount of average Psykers is greater, as is the amount of top-end Psykers. Primarises aren't uncommon, and planets like Mordian in 40K even have a higher birth rate of Psykers with the potential to become Primarises. Although, Mordian is definitely an exception. Planets that routinely produce Primaris Psykers should not be a thing.


Can the phalanx or Rock move at reasonable interstellar speed (IE: strategic FTL)

The Phalanx patrols the entire Solar Segmentum, which is a not inconsiderable amount of space. It moves as the speed of plot, which means it's as fast as it needs to be to get from anywhere to anywhere in under an hour. Seriously though, the Phalanx has an FTL speed of 'not slow', that's about all there is.

I assume The Rock is the same.


There is specifically an AT-AT vs. Jedi feat

Going from the picture, AT-ATs aren't as big as I thought they were. Going from a wiki I found, AT-ATs are 22m tall. Which is about the same size as a Reaver Battle Titan. The difference is that Reavers have shields and are terrifying. The other thing is that it looks like that Luke isn't being shot at.

[The Glyphstone]

He was, he bounced the blaster bolts back into the AT-AT. It sits there for a moment while its crew goes "WTF" and tries to work out Plan B, then Luke gets bored and rips it apart.

It really isn't that impressive of a feat relative to either top-end 40K or top-end Star Wars. But it is exactly what you had asked about, which I found amusing enough to go hunt it down.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think he actually does but he thought you were disagreeing with him or trying to use that as evidence that he was wrong.

No, my post was actually in response to the thread in general to the tune of "What was asked has been provided, but it's not that impressive anyways".


Eh? Imperial-side Primaris Psykers > Daemon Princes. Primaris Psykers are immensely powerful, and are the first line of defense for Imperial Guard fighting Daemons. Basically, an entire Guard regiment points to one guy and says "Protect that guy and we win."

I was referencing the Primarch Daemon Princes, sorry.

[druid91]

Couple of points, I wont address anything on the Star Wars side, since that's not my wheelhouse.

40K's Imperium of Man;

Technological Stagnation; It's a fallacy. The Imperium doesn't know how its old, old stuff works. Capital starships fall into this category. However the Imperium builds a lot of escort craft and scout ships, and are redesigning them all the time. This is because scout and escort ships get destroyed. A lot. Capital ships in the Imperium don't really get destroyed, so, they don't build new ones, and they don't bother to learn new technology because they don't have to. If someone comes along and starts blowing away capital ships, the previous 'rebel Magos' who was shouting at Mars to make new starships becomes a Saint. Technology is driven by need. 40K just simply turns that idea up to 11 - like everything else. I'll also point out that capital ships of the Imperium aren't even that big.

The Phalanx and The Rock are 40K Death Stars, and both have been known to destroy entire fleets without even sweating. These are going to be roadblocks for the Empire. Only one thing has made it past the Phalanx in a straight-up fight, and that's only because Necrons can teleport, or however their FTL works.

Psykers vs. The Force; What's the biggest feat that the Force has achieved? I don't know anything about the EU, but, from what I understand it's mostly Telekinesis and occasionally some Divination. In 40K, Psykers can block Titans with TK. Basically, a Jedi needs to be able to stand in front of an AT-AT on the ground, and tear its head off, in a combat situation. Has this been done before? Because that's what Primaris Psykers have been shown to do. If these Psykers go bad (the powerful ones always do), Space Marines need to execute them, which they do. This is the threat that Space Marines go up against. Do Jedi even compare?
Can Jedi mindrape? 'Cause Psykers can, and do. With regularity.

Furthermore; Space Marines vs. Jedi.
How many Space Marines? How many Jedi? Boltguns fire 240 rpm (for reference, the FN P90 fires ~900). Now, again, I wont speak for Jedi reflexes and deflecting bullets, but, Blaster fire seems really slow in the movies. What are Blaster specs?

Yes. To the AT-AT thing.

Courtship of Princess Leia, the Nightsisters attack a mountain stronghold with AT-AT's and stormtroopers, ignoring the rough terrain because the Nightsisters just levitate the AT-ATs over canyons and up sheer cliff faces.

[LordHavelock]

Usually one of the losing points for 40k in any given vs matchup is FTL capability, since faster than light travel for anyone (except maybe the Eldar and the Necrons) is a chancy affair and not just point-a-to-point-b like in most other sci-fi genres.

I think though, that shouldn't hold true for Star Wars. Their means of FTL utilizes an extradimensional sort of transposition, almost exactly like Warp Travel in 40k, with the rather glaring absence of nightmarish demonic consumption/oblivion. My question is whether or not that will hold true in a matchup between them?

Seems to me, if Star Wars Spacecraft start using the alternate dimension of Hyperspace whilst on the 'home turf' of the 40k Galaxy, then that's just asking for the daemons and powers of the Warp to find whatever pocket of not-space they have been using and set up shop. The subsequent smorgasbord of souls and transformation of hyperspace travel into a literal trek across hell itself should even the playing field a great deal.

Any reason why that shouldn't be the case?

[Tanuki Tales]

Usually one of the losing points for 40k in any given vs matchup is FTL capability, since faster than light travel for anyone (except maybe the Eldar and the Necrons) is a chancy affair and not just point-a-to-point-b like in most other sci-fi genres.

Don't the Tau also have FTL drives that don't rely on the Warp?

[The Glyphstone]

Don't the Tau also have FTL drives that don't rely on the Warp?

Sort of. Their FTL is semi-warp-based, acting like a skipping rock across the 'surface' of the warp but never actually 'submerging' into it, since they can't navigate inside it. It's still FTL, but by far the slowest FTL in the setting.

[LordHavelock]

Don't the Tau also have FTL drives that don't rely on the Warp?

They use the Warp too, but their empire isn't so big that they get by with 'short' FTL skips and jumps, that barely skim Warp Space. That and they're not even a fully realized psychic race (even compared to humanity) makes them altogether less appealing fare and thus their experience with Warp space is more, shall we say, wholesome. Chaos doesn't care about them because their souls don't really register, and because they have no psykers, astropaths, or navigators, their warp travel and initiation into the larger galaxy remains slow.

Given the nature of the Force in the Star Wars universe and working from the assumption that the Force and 40k psychic powers is roughly analogous, I'm thinking the same placidity won't hold true for any ships making anything more than a short FTL jump once the Forces of Chaos catch on to these new items on the menu.

[druid91]

Hyperspace is weird. Half the time it's an alternate reality, but the other half it's just a term for what things look like when your ship turns to Tachyonic matter and zooms away FTL.

It depends on who's talking.

[Tanuki Tales]

Given the nature of the Force in the Star Wars universe and working from the assumption that the Force and 40k psychic powers is roughly analogous, I'm thinking the same placidity won't hold true for any ships making anything more than a short FTL jump once the Forces of Chaos catch on to these new items on the menu.

I was not saying that, I just remembered the Tau having some kind of reliable, albeit slow, FTL travel.

[LordHavelock]

Hyperspace is weird. Half the time it's an alternate reality, but the other half it's just a term for what things look like when your ship turns to Tachyonic matter and zooms away FTL.

It depends on who's talking.

But it almost always amounts to extradimensional or transdimensional sort of travel, given that even what little we know about tachyons and are willing to suppose for the sake of science fiction means they have to breach the bounds of strictly physical existence in a singular dimension of space-time.

Either way though, anything not strictly of material existence is fair game for Daemons and the ruinous powers. Doesn't matter if it's quantum physics or metaphysics, if it's non-newtonian it's a way in for them.


I was not saying that, I just remembered the Tau having some kind of reliable, albeit slow, FTL travel.

Then you're right, and I think it only serves to show all the more that any Star Wars ships, will not.

[Cheesegear]

I think though, that shouldn't hold true for Star Wars. Their means of FTL utilizes an extradimensional sort of transposition, almost exactly like Warp Travel in 40k

What? No. The Empire is just an unencountered xenos race that doesn't use the Warp for FTL. The Imperium has dealt with Necrons can phase or teleport short distances instantaneously (and by 'short' I mean several Solar Systems worth of distance). The Imperium has dealt with starship sized Webway Gates that allow Eldar Fleets to move anywhere to anywhere like Stargates, in fact, call them what they are. The Eldar use Stargates.

I don't see why Star Wars needs to play by 40K's rules. Especially when 40K already allows for non-Warp FTL travel.

[LordHavelock]

What? No. The Empire is just an unencountered xenos race that doesn't use the Warp for FTL. The Imperium has dealt with Necrons can phase or teleport short distances instantaneously (and by 'short' I mean several Solar Systems worth of distance). The Imperium has dealt with starship sized Webway Gates that allow Eldar Fleets to move anywhere to anywhere like Stargates, in fact, call them what they are. The Eldar use Stargates.

I don't see why Star Wars needs to play by 40K's rules. Especially when 40K already allows for non-Warp FTL travel.

Except that the Necrons do travel through the Warp when they teleport, The Necrons also use the Webway, like the Eldar, except they're a little more protected because the C'tan set them up with some serious divinity-tier tech, and more to the point, Necrons don't have souls, and the C'tan themselves contend with Chaos on it's own terms of infernal influence. For all other needs, the Necrons travel at sub-light speeds, because they are above all patient. The Eldar Webway also uses the Warp, it's just that at their peak, the Eldar were able to build effing roads across Warp Space, and even then, the webway has gone into disrepair since, with whole sections of it being taken over by daemons and closed off in turn by the Eldar.

The point is that in 40k FTL travel comes with a cost, and I don't see why Star Wars shouldn't have the same cost if they're going into conflict with 40k on their own terms. Same holds true the other way around, if it's 40k invading the Galaxy Far, Far Away, they may not necessarily be taking the daemons of their own Galaxy with them (at least, not at first).

[Cheesegear]

The point is that in 40k FTL travel comes with a cost, and I don't see why Star Wars shouldn't have the same cost if they're going into conflict with 40k on their own terms. Same holds true the other way around, if it's 40k invading the Galaxy Far, Far Away, they may not necessarily be taking the daemons of their own Galaxy with them (at least, not at first).

Then what is the point? If non-40K units are suddenly dropped into a place that they're not equipped to deal with, they lose. Full stop. The Empire does not have Gellar Fields, they can't enter the Warp without everyone on board turning into Spawn. If they can't enter the Warp, they can't FTL. Full stop. The Empire loses. While we're at it, the Jedi are always at risk at having their heads explode every time they use the Force, which AFAIK they use constantly.

If 40K units are dropped in a Galaxy Far, Far Away that doesn't have the Warp, do Psykers even still have Powers? If they do, are there no consequences because there's no Warp? Can low-level Psykers now start Overbleeding at will and tearing AT-ATs in half with no respect to psychic limits? Are Gamma-level Psykers and above now unfettered from consequence? Because now they're cracking planets in half at will.

40K metaphysics are out of control. That's why the setting has built-in restrictions to keep it in control.

EDIT
RE; Necron FTL. The canon reason that Necrons managed to get a look at Terra and past Phalanx was because they could phase/teleport.

Also, how do Jedi deal with Vortex Grenades?

[Boci]

Then what is the point? If non-40K units are suddenly dropped into a place that they're not equipped to deal with, they lose. Full stop. The Empire does not have Gellar Fields, they can't enter the Warp without everyone on board turning into Spawn. If they can't enter the Warp, they can't FTL. Full stop. The Empire loses. While we're at it, the Jedi are always at risk at having their heads explode every time they use the Force, which AFAIK they use constantly.

If 40K units are dropped in a Galaxy Far, Far Away that doesn't have the Warp, do Psykers even still have Powers? If they do, are there no consequences because there's no Warp? Can low-level Psykers now start Overbleeding at will and tearing AT-ATs in half with no respect to psychic limits? Are Gamma-level Psykers and above now unfettered from consequence? Because now they're cracking planets in half at will.

40K metaphysics are out of control. That's why the setting has built-in restrictions to keep it in control.

To be fair, LordHavelock isn't saying the Empire shouldn't have FTL, just that hyper drives would take you into the warp or webway in the 40k verse. From a fluff standpoint he's probably right, but from a vs. standpoint I agree with you, we should allow their technologies to function as they originally did,

[Cheesegear]

To be fair, LordHavelock isn't saying the Empire shouldn't have FTL, just that hyper drives would take you into the warp or webway in the 40k verse.

Yes. And I'm saying that if the Empire enters the Warp (i.e; Uses FTL), everyone dies. Which is dumb, because reliable, fast FTL is one of Star Wars' advantages over 40K.

[LordHavelock]

Then what is the point? If non-40K units are suddenly dropped into a place that they're not equipped to deal with, they lose. Full stop. The Empire does not have Gellar Fields, they can't enter the Warp without everyone on board turning into Spawn. If they can't enter the Warp, they can't FTL. Full stop. The Empire loses. While we're at it, the Jedi are always at risk at having their heads explode every time they use the Force, which AFAIK they use constantly.

If 40K units are dropped in a Galaxy Far, Far Away that doesn't have the Warp, do Psykers even still have Powers? If they do, are there no consequences because there's no Warp? Can low-level Psykers now start Overbleeding at will and tearing AT-ATs in half with no respect to psychic limits? Are Theta-level Psykers and above now unfettered from consequence? Because now they're cracking planets in half at will.

40K metaphysics are out of control. That's why the setting has built-in restrictions to keep it in control.

My answer to your post in a word would be 'Yes'. To all of it.

I think that's exactly where the respective lore of each universe leads us when juxtaposed, especially of the purpose for a versus debate. I'm willing to grant that the Empire could probably figure out Gellar fields (or even already have a less developed version as a function of whatever other FTL precautions they take in their home galaxy). Jedi are always at risk of succumbing to the Dark Side whenever they use Force Powers, it's just that even the Dark Side at it's darkest is a whole lot less scary than most everything in 40k. The power of Chaos is, I should think, just the Dark Side turned up to 11 and proportionately all the more powerful and seductive; "The quick and easy path to power for it's own sake" being a fair description of both.

Of course, if psykers start Overbleeding all up and down the Star Wars Galaxy, that's going to have some serious repercussions for balance in the Force, and combine with all the metaphysical baggage which any IoM (or any other 40k faction) invasion force is going to bring with it, I think it's just a matter of time before you see the birth of some bizarre twist on The Living Force as an entity in and of itself, and not unlike the Chaos Gods of 40k (though probably with more of a Ying-Yang flavoring).

Think about it, power in the Force comes from will and emotion, and it's the combine will and emotion of every psychically realized creature in the 40k galaxy that empowers and maintains the Chaos Gods as what they are. Mix one with the other and they're bound to start bleeding over.

[Boci]

Yes. And I'm saying that if the Empire enters the Warp (i.e; Uses FTL), everyone dies. Which is dumb, because reliable, fast FTL is one of Star Wars' advantages over 40K.

Unless its fluffed as entering the webway. And I acknowledged that its an important advantage of the Starwars verse in the sentence you decided not you quote.


Of course, if psykers start Overbleeding all up and down the Star Wars Galaxy,

How are psykers doing anything without the warp? This isn't warp travel, where the warp is simply a means to the end, don't psykers channel the warp to use their powers? Removing the warp doesn't allow them to safely channel the warp, it prevents them from doing so entirely.

[Grim Portent]

It occurs to me that if the Inquisition is being factored in then they can bring sorcery and daemonic rituals into play against the Empire.

One sufficiently determined Inquisitor and retinue could see greater daemons being summoned to do battle (most would only be able to use lower powered daemonhosts though). It would inevitably end badly for all involved on both sides, but it would be a fight I'd love to see. Bloodthirsters fighting Star Wars walkers, Lords of Change and Keepers of Secrets dueling Jedi. Then promptly turning on the fools who summoned them in a slaughter of amusing proportions. :smallamused:

[LordHavelock]

How are psykers doing anything without the warp? This isn't warp travel, where the warp is simply a means to the end, don't psykers channel the warp to use their powers? Removing the warp doesn't allow them to safely channel the warp, it prevents them from doing so entirely.

Right except, the assumption is that Hyperspace is just Star Wars' version of The Warp, a whole lot more tame and simple because the source of psychic energy in Star Wars, The Force, is a more balanced and "wholesome" power. The reason The Warp is the way it is in 40k is because it is an outlet for the combine psychic baggage of all psychically uplifted life in 40k and at any given time, the Star Wars Galaxy is a hell of a lot more peaceful and amicable place by comparison. So their extra-dimensional outlet isn't teeming with psychic predators and hoary old gods except maybe a few conniving and particularly potent Force Spirits.

[Boci]

Right except, the assumption is that Hyperspace is just Star Wars' version of The Warp

Only in that its responsible for FTL, its got nothing to do with psychic powers. That's the force, which is in reality and operates under completely different ideologies. Unless I am missing something there is not reason a psyker will be able to substitute hyper space or the force for the warp.

[LordHavelock]

Only in that its responsible for FTL, its got nothing to do with psychic powers. That's the force, which is in reality and operates under completely different ideologies. Unless I am missing something there is not reason a psyker will be able to substitute hyper space or the force for the warp.

You might be right, though there's plenty about the Force to suggest it's much more than something which exists 'in reality' (or perhaps more pertinently, that it exists in all realities). Which I suppose would mean that 40k psykers would not be able to overbleed freely, because there would be no additional power stemming from the Warp to draw upon, or rather they'd be drawing on The Force which doesn't scream and writhe and pulse constantly with the trillions upon trillions of psyker's souls and all those who have given themselves to chaos, and thus doesn't represent the same font of horrendous, nightmarish power.

So basically, 40k psykers in the Star Wars universe would be initially much more tame, until their actions and the resulting strife begin to affect the metaphysical realm of the Galaxy Far Far Away in the same way as 40k's home galaxy.

[druid91]

My answer to your post in a word would be 'Yes'. To all of it.

I think that's exactly where the respective lore of each universe leads us when juxtaposed, especially of the purpose for a versus debate. I'm willing to grant that the Empire could probably figure out Gellar fields (or even already have a less developed version as a function of whatever other FTL precautions they take in their home galaxy). Jedi are always at risk of succumbing to the Dark Side whenever they use Force Powers, it's just that even the Dark Side at it's darkest is a whole lot less scary than most everything in 40k. The power of Chaos is, I should think, just the Dark Side turned up to 11 and proportionately all the more powerful and seductive; "The quick and easy path to power for it's own sake" being a fair description of both.

Of course, if psykers start Overbleeding all up and down the Star Wars Galaxy, that's going to have some serious repercussions for balance in the Force, and combine with all the metaphysical baggage which any IoM (or any other 40k faction) invasion force is going to bring with it, I think it's just a matter of time before you see the birth of some bizarre twist on The Living Force as an entity in and of itself, and not unlike the Chaos Gods of 40k (though probably with more of a Ying-Yang flavoring).

Think about it, power in the Force comes from will and emotion, and it's the combine will and emotion of every psychically realized creature in the 40k galaxy that empowers and maintains the Chaos Gods as what they are. Mix one with the other and they're bound to start bleeding over.

Err no. The "Dark side" and the "Light side" are literally ideological viewpoints about how you should treat your newfound status as a superbeing.

Dark side is basically self focused, along with a tendency to throw around your powers like mad, and essentially develop your psychic muscles like a mental Schwarzenegger at the cost of your sensitivity to changes within the force being vastly diminished.

Light side is other focused, you try to avoid using too much power because there's no real need and as a result are more sensitive to changes in the overall structure, because that structure isn't quite so turbulent.

A full blown dark sider would be point-blank immune to the seduction or corruption of the warp in all likelihood as they wouldn't even realize it's there, they're too busy kicking up their own metaphysical warpstorm, which IIRC is why the jedi stopped getting decent premonitions in the prequels, Palpatine was there and was throwing around his influence, stirring up psychic dust that obscured everything.

A light sider would, ironically be more sensitive to any whisperings.

Also the force and hyperspace are two different things.

[jseah]

Did I miss anything?

The problem with this match up is: people look at tactical side, not strategic side. <...>
You forget that Star Wars has Strong AI.

Droids that can build more droids and do just about anything as well as people.

If Star Wars side goes into full no-holds barred war footing, it will result in exponentially increasing production power. (they can produce "labour" that doesn't requre training)

You more or less have to assume a Calm Warp scenario, it just ends badly for both sides otherwise.
(droids are rather worse than the Men of Iron as they can just as well do research)

[Tiki Snakes]

You forget that Star Wars has Strong AI.

Droids that can build more droids and do just about anything as well as people.

If Star Wars side goes into full no-holds barred war footing, it will result in exponentially increasing production power. (they can produce "labour" that doesn't requre training)

You more or less have to assume a Calm Warp scenario, it just ends badly for both sides otherwise.
(droids are rather worse than the Men of Iron as they can just as well do research)

If this is the case, why has it never in any star wars media actually been the case?

[ShadowFireLance]

Tyranid Jedi.

Tyranids with the Force.

Tyranid Rancors.

:smalleek:

[Kitten Champion]

If this is the case, why has it never in any star wars media actually been the case?

The droids have shown sophisticated intelligence and problem-solving abilities, it's just that... they're comic relief.

[druid91]

If this is the case, why has it never in any star wars media actually been the case?

It has. Just they lose because power of plot and hero's intervening at just the right moment to throw a monkey wrench in the works and destroy the bad guy droids.

The HK-51 line, HK-47, and IG-88 A-D all at varying points came close to exterminating everything in a droid rebellion IIRC.

[HamHam]

If this is the case, why has it never in any star wars media actually been the case?

War droids are pretty common in Star Wars. Some rogue droid is always trying to create an army of them, but there is always an unlikely band of heros there to stop it.

There was a full blown droid rebellion at one point, too.

The Seperatists also show that you can start with basically nothing but money, and buy a bunch of droids and end up with an army able to fight the entirety of the Republic on equal terms.

[Tiki Snakes]

It has. Just they lose because power of plot and hero's intervening at just the right moment to throw a monkey wrench in the works and destroy the bad guy droids.

The HK-51 line, HK-47, and IG-88 A-D all at varying points came close to exterminating everything in a droid rebellion IIRC.

We're not discussing droid rebellions or something. We're discussing the Empire. And specifically the claim is that they could or would use hard scifi ideas like droids designing new droids at exponential rates in order to zerg rush the opposition with vast super-intelligent post-singularity droid armies or something.

Despite the fact that the empire, rebellion and even republic never used that tactic against any other civilisation ending mega-threat.

[LordHavelock]

Err no. The "Dark side" and the "Light side" are literally ideological viewpoints about how you should treat your newfound status as a superbeing.

Dark side is basically self focused, along with a tendency to throw around your powers like mad, and essentially develop your psychic muscles like a mental Schwarzenegger at the cost of your sensitivity to changes within the force being vastly diminished.

Light side is other focused, you try to avoid using too much power because there's no real need and as a result are more sensitive to changes in the overall structure, because that structure isn't quite so turbulent.

A full blown dark sider would be point-blank immune to the seduction or corruption of the warp in all likelihood as they wouldn't even realize it's there, they're too busy kicking up their own metaphysical warpstorm, which IIRC is why the jedi stopped getting decent premonitions in the prequels, Palpatine was there and was throwing around his influence, stirring up psychic dust that obscured everything.

A light sider would, ironically be more sensitive to any whisperings.

Also the force and hyperspace are two different things.

I don't agree, as even the most powerful Dark Side Force users can't hold a candle to even your average Chaos Space Marine veteran in terms of sheer horrors witnessed/perpetrated. Even the darkest Dark Siders in Star Wars have room to fall in the context of 40k would just be all the less aware that a new and more manipulative, malevolent power is using them and their connection to the Force for it's own ends.

Also, I'm not saying that Hyperspace is the Force, I'm saying that The Warp probably already encompasses whatever pocket dimension it is that allows for FTL travel in Star Wars. An invasion by the forces of 40k into the Galaxy Far Far Away is just the catalyst for their version of the Immaterium becoming . . . well the Immaterium.


You forget that Star Wars has Strong AI.

Droids that can build more droids and do just about anything as well as people.

If Star Wars side goes into full no-holds barred war footing, it will result in exponentially increasing production power. (they can produce "labour" that doesn't requre training)

You more or less have to assume a Calm Warp scenario, it just ends badly for both sides otherwise.
(droids are rather worse than the Men of Iron as they can just as well do research)

Star Wars doesn't have Strong AI. The most advanced Droid Brains are smarter than sentient humanoids in terms of raw processing power and memory, but inexplicably are constrained by a 'personality' which makes their thought process altogether 'human' (or humanoid). There are some exceptions, but the explanation for why Star Wars, even though it goes into full war footing every few centuries or so is that even post-industrial powers are still rooted in a sort of 'artisan' core, which is what gives the universe as a whole the more romantic, space-opera feel which is characteristic of Star Wars. Thus, no exponentially increasing production power, or that would have happened to Star Wars sometime in the last couple of tens of thousands of years since droids were first invented.

[HamHam]

We're not discussing droid rebellions or something. We're discussing the Empire. And specifically the claim is that they could or would use hard scifi ideas like droids designing new droids at exponential rates in order to zerg rush the opposition with vast super-intelligent post-singularity droid armies or something.

Despite the fact that the empire, rebellion and even republic never used that tactic against any other civilisation ending mega-threat.

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

[Tiki Snakes]

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

A ground army so powerful it can significantly opposed via pratfall.
Seriously, the Droids were not a meaningful combat thread even by stormtrooper standards.

[Squark]

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

Probably closer to a couple thousand officers and tacticians. Plus large numbers of non-droid planetary security forces to avoid scaring their populace.

On star wars's "Strong AI's": For whatever reason, such AIs seem prone to megalomania that inevitably makes them rebel against organics. the IG-88s tried to launch a droid rebellion (They got pretty close, but using the death star as the rallying point backfired rather spectacularly), while Mentor went so extreme that he drove away the droids he hadn't assimilated into himself and was betrayed. So, while the SW universe can make super-intelligent AIs... For whatever reason, they really fail horribly at giving them a sense of morality.

EDIT: Eh, don't count the droids out completely. Once they finally dropped the comic relief, they actually gave a pretty good accounting of themselves as long as plot armor wasn't rearing its ugly head.

[Forum Explorer]

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

and quite frankly the droids were crap. They lost even though they outnumbered the Republic 100-1.


Regardless I think I remember the Emperor was sorta anti-droid. He was also sexist and xenophobic. So I don't think we could expect to see legions upon legions of droids. Which likely

a) wouldn't surprise the Imperium as the Nid's have crazy huge numbers and they manage to defeat them.

b) are so crappy that a single Titan Legion be enough to destroy them all without taking a casualty.

[The Glyphstone]

Point of order, a Titan legion is the last thing you would want to deploy against an army of droid infantry. Titans are canonically at their weakest versus large numbers of infantry that their guns can't range on/target, who can then swarm the walker and either board it or just systematically dismantle it from the ankles up. That's why Titans only get deployed to fight other super-heavies, and usually do so in company with an escort of infantry/vehicles to protect them from enemy infantry.

[LordHavelock]

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

Except the Separatist's Droids were with rare exception, bumbling nincompoops who could be routed by a properly motivated platoon of Red Coats. Hardly the super-intelligent post-singularity galaxy threatening force that a Strong AI should be capable of creating. The average separatist battle droid makes their counterpart IoM Guardsman look like a Space Marine. Seriously, I think it should be apparent to anyone familiar with the Clone Wars that the only reason the war lasted as long as it did is because Palpatine wanted it that way. Lest we forget he was the head of the war effort on both sides.

You know what the creator's of the battle droids in episode one used as a frame of reference? Parrots.

[HamHam]

A ground army so powerful it can significantly opposed via pratfall.
Seriously, the Droids were not a meaningful combat thread even by stormtrooper standards.

The B1s are inept, sure. But a B2 is equal to a generic fresh out of the vat Clone Trooper. Commando Droids are superior to Clone Trooper grunts, though the basic model is not really on the level of an experienced ARC Trooper. Those ones with the electrostaffs that Grevious always has around take on Jedi and do better than most people would.

And then you have the heavier versions like Droidekas and the ones that are actually starfighters.

These things fought the entire Republic military, led by Jedi, to a standstill for several years.


Probably closer to a couple thousand officers and tacticians. Plus large numbers of non-droid planetary security forces to avoid scaring their populace.

The officers and tacticians are also droids. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-series_tactical_droid)

The standard Separatist order of battle seriously consists of one actual general in command of a given theater, system, or fleet and then everyone under him is a droid.

[jseah]

We're not discussing droid rebellions or something. We're discussing the Empire. And specifically the claim is that they could or would use hard scifi ideas like droids designing new droids at exponential rates in order to zerg rush the opposition with vast super-intelligent post-singularity droid armies or something.

Despite the fact that the empire, rebellion and even republic never used that tactic against any other civilisation ending mega-threat.

Star Wars doesn't have Strong AI. The most advanced Droid Brains are smarter than sentient humanoids in terms of raw processing power and memory, but inexplicably are constrained by a 'personality' which makes their thought process altogether 'human' (or humanoid). There are some exceptions, but the explanation for why Star Wars, even though it goes into full war footing every few centuries or so is that even post-industrial powers are still rooted in a sort of 'artisan' core, which is what gives the universe as a whole the more romantic, space-opera feel which is characteristic of Star Wars. Thus, no exponentially increasing production power, or that would have happened to Star Wars sometime in the last couple of tens of thousands of years since droids were first invented.That's sort of the definition of Strong AI. They're convincingly human in capability, thought and personality (who knows, our personality could be contributing some valuable heuristics we use to solve problems). They don't even have to be smarter or even be capable of making smarter droids to be a major problems.

It doesn't take droids designing new droids. It just takes droids working in a droid manufacturing plant (that definitely exist), making more droid manufacturing plants and power plants and resource mining operations.
That's easily within the demonstrated capabilities of R2D2 and variants.

If at no point a human is required, and I don't see why they would need any, then you have your exponentially increasing production base with cycle times measured in how fast you can stamp out new droids.

You have droid armies, droids that fly planes / starfighters, droids that build droids, repair droids, spy droids, police droids, etc. Capital ships are basically a big starfighter and is actually easier to handle given it doesn't dogfight. Droid crews.
These already exist at various points in the movies. Put them all together and add one human at the top to press the Red Button.

There's no reason why, apart from an executive order to "GO", that Star Wars could not have droids do everything from war production to fighting their battles for them.

If the Warp is active though, this would be a hilariously bad idea of course. And even if they don't do it, some Star Wars-turned cultist citizen is going to have the bright idea.
Chaos is at least creative, even if its undirected. (in this case, that's not a problem, all it takes is one droid-everything instance to get off the ground and everyone dies)


Add a little Warp corruption and poof, they'll become self-adaptive (if they weren't already, a point I note is under contention given the existence of droid rebellions). A few decades after that, every biological in existence is dead and you have endless droid armies battling each other for the rest of eternity.

[LordHavelock]

The B1s are inept, sure. But a B2 is equal to a generic fresh out of the vat Clone Trooper. Commando Droids are superior to Clone Trooper grunts, though the basic model is not really on the level of an experienced ARC Trooper. Those ones with the electrostaffs that Grevious always has around take on Jedi and do better than most people would.

And then you have the heavier versions like Droidekas and the ones that are actually starfighters.

These things fought the entire Republic military, led by Jedi, to a standstill for several years.

The officers and tacticians are also droids. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-series_tactical_droid)

The standard Separatist order of battle seriously consists of one actual general in command of a given theater, system, or fleet and then everyone under him is a droid.

What you're saying is that they're the equivalent of the Grand Army of the Republic, which the Galactic Empire's combine force makes look like a Boy Scout Troop, and none of which even come close to the post-singularity droid mega-threat that was being described. That kind of thing just does not exist in Star Wars, because Star Wars is not Sci-Fi. Even the smartest droid brain or Star Wars Computer still thinks in linear (that is, non-geometric) terms.


That's sort of the definition of Strong AI. They're convincingly human in capability, thought and personality (who knows, our personality could be contributing some valuable heuristics we use to solve problems). They don't even have to be smarter or even be capable of making smarter droids to be a major problems.

It doesn't take droids designing new droids. It just takes droids working in a droid manufacturing plant (that definitely exist), making more droid manufacturing plants and power plants and resource mining operations.
That's easily within the demonstrated capabilities of R2D2 and variants.

If at no point a human is required, and I don't see why they would need any, then you have your exponentially increasing production base with cycle times measured in how fast you can stamp out new droids.

You have droid armies, droids that fly planes / starfighters, droids that build droids, repair droids, spy droids, police droids, etc. Capital ships are basically a big starfighter and is actually easier to handle given it doesn't dogfight. Droid crews.
These already exist at various points in the movies. Put them all together and add one human at the top to press the Red Button.

There's no reason why, apart from an executive order to "GO", that Star Wars could not have droids do everything from war production to fighting their battles for them.

If the Warp is active though, this would be a hilariously bad idea of course. And even if they don't do it, some Star Wars-turned cultist citizen is going to have the bright idea.
Chaos is at least creative, even if its undirected. (in this case, that's not a problem, all it takes is one droid-everything instance to get off the ground and everyone dies)


Add a little Warp corruption and poof, they'll become self-adaptive (if they weren't already, a point I note is under contention given the existence of droid rebellions). A few decades after that, every biological in existence is dead and you have endless droid armies battling each other for the rest of eternity.

Nope. The reason that doesn't already happen or exist in Star Wars is because even the smartest Droids can't hold a candle to your what my laptop represents in terms of technological potential. Droids are to all extents and purposes, less creative/imaginative people, who happen to have more memory and processing power. Droids aren't even comparable to your average hard-science Weak AI because they only ever think (with rare exception) in a linear fashion. There's no potential for geometric learning and singularity style convergence of technological innovation because technology in Star Wars doesn't innovate except by magic.

Could it happen? Potentially. Is it worth considering in this debate? No, because it is decidedly not Star Wars.

[jseah]

Could it happen? Potentially. Is it worth considering in this debate? No, because it is decidedly not Star Wars.
Might want to read my post again. I specifically argued that droid innovation isn't required.

Droids can build more droids. Droids can fight.

That's all it takes. Then they zerg rush you and recycle the scrapped droids.
In a surprisingly short amount of time (like a handful of years), they can turn a planet into a Forge World capable of rivaling Mars in production power.


Even if Star Wars won't do it, Chaos will. They did it once already (Men of Iron).

[druid91]

I don't agree, as even the most powerful Dark Side Force users can't hold a candle to even your average Chaos Space Marine veteran in terms of sheer horrors witnessed/perpetrated. Even the darkest Dark Siders in Star Wars have room to fall in the context of 40k would just be all the less aware that a new and more manipulative, malevolent power is using them and their connection to the Force for it's own ends.

Palpatine psychically empowered and controlled the entire imperial war machine across the empire, to the point that when he died, they had to start over from cadet level soldiers, because they didn't know how to fight without him holding their hand. That's Emprah scale telepathy in 40kverse, possibly even greater as the GE is bigger. And did so while having casual conversations in his throne room trying to convert luke skywalker and throwing lightning around. With nothing but his own personal power, not being fed thousands of souls every day.

Naga Sadow blew up a sun. 'Nuff said.

A mildly slipping Luke Skywalker was capable of rebuilding his fathers floating castle with nothing but telekinetic power.

Furthermore, Canonically, the Imperial navy was better than the Grand army of the Republic, but that was primarily due to technological innovations.

The Grand Army of the Republics ground forces would thoroughly trash the Imperial Army. Most of the Veterans of the clone wars who had enough free will to think, despised the new recruits for being inept, cowardly, and overall terrible soldiers.

Because all Palpatine wanted was legions of mooks to die for him, not, Y'know, the best of the best trained soldiers.

[HamHam]

There's no potential for geometric learning and singularity style convergence of technological innovation because technology in Star Wars doesn't innovate except by magic.

Could it happen? Potentially. Is it worth considering in this debate? No, because it is decidedly not Star Wars.

Singularity seems to be psychically impossible in Star Wars. Galactic civilization has been at basically the same tech level for thousands maybe even tens of thousands of years. And not for the 40k reasons of dark age and stuff. It just seems like they have literally discovered all there is to discover and all improvements since have been making stuff that performs a little better or is grander in scale.

[LordHavelock]

Palpatine psychically empowered and controlled the entire imperial war machine across the empire, to the point that when he died, they had to start over from cadet level soldiers, because they didn't know how to fight without him holding their hand. That's Emprah scale telepathy in 40kverse, possibly even greater as the GE is bigger. And did so while having casual conversations in his throne room trying to convert luke skywalker and throwing lightning around. With nothing but his own personal power, not being fed thousands of souls every day.

Naga Sadow blew up a sun. 'Nuff said.

A mildly slipping Luke Skywalker was capable of rebuilding his fathers floating castle with nothing but telekinetic power.

Can you source that first one for me? Cause that's like Galactic Scale Battle Meditation, which would A) Be really badass, and B) Kind of seems to diminish Palpatine's whole thing of being a cunningly magnificent bastard. I mean, if he's mind tricking the whole of the Empire into believing in him, that cool I guess, except I've never heard of that, but could see it being retconned into why the Rebellion "won" after Endor.



Might want to read my post again. I specifically argued that droid innovation isn't required.

Droids can build more droids. Droids can fight.

That's all it takes. Then they zerg rush you and recycle the scrapped droids.
In a surprisingly short amount of time (like a handful of years), they can turn a planet into a Forge World capable of rivaling Mars in production power.


Even if Star Wars won't do it, Chaos will. They did it once already (Men of Iron).

I read it just fine the first time, and at least some level of Droid innovation is required because some droid is going to have to dream that up in the first place.

Not saying that Chaos wouldn't do it, but I feel like there'll already in a really good place with how this is going from the start of it without having to re-hash old tricks (which didn't really work out all that well the first time around).

Face it though, Droids are essentially Servitors with slightly more emotional range because it makes for comic relief. Galaxy spanning self-replicating droid armies don't happen for the same reason Servitors don't do the same thing in 40k, Droids just do it with a little more personality.

[Tiki Snakes]

Even if Star Wars won't do it, Chaos will. They did it once already (Men of Iron).

Star Wars never did it, so they won't do it. Chaos might, but Chaos isn't invited to this throwdown, so they can sit on the sidelines and pout. :smalltongue:

This is Empire Vs Empire. We should avoid muddying the issue with further factions where possible, or the old answers become the inevitable ones. (Ie, Orks win, because Orks is made for fightin and winnin, which is to say they reproduce widely and speedily enough as to be a constant threat indefinitely, which means constant war and is also their victory condition because that's all they want, or Chaos Wins, because they are able to manipulate everyone and everything to the point where the situation ends up in a constantly chaotic stalemate, no one side ever truly triumphing over the other because endless war is ALSO the win condition for Chaos.)

[jseah]

Nope. The reason that doesn't already happen or exist in Star Wars is because even the smartest Droids can't hold a candle to your what my laptop represents in terms of technological potential. Droids are to all extents and purposes, less creative/imaginative people, who happen to have more memory and processing power. Droids aren't even comparable to your average hard-science Weak AI because they only ever think (with rare exception) in a linear fashion. There's no potential for geometric learning and singularity style convergence of technological innovation because technology in Star Wars doesn't innovate except by magic.
Firstly, even dumb people can do science. Not as well as the brilliant people, but simple random guess will eventually hit something useful.
Too slow to matter though.

Second, even the basic Star Wars droid is better than our best supercomputers today. They can walk, they can talk, they can see. They can shoot you.
This is not trivial, as CS people like to say.

Some of them (see the tactical droid linked above) can even do general problem solving! This is not a thing we have even begun to make in-roads to.

Third, Strong AI is defined as having similar capabilities to a human. Droids in the series are depicted as having human mental functions and able to operate on a comparable level with other humans (although not outdoing the best humans). They can do things they weren't explicitly made to do, they can solve general classes of problems, they can do just about anything.

That's Strong AI right there.

The term you are looking for is Superintelligence or variants on that theme. That I agree they are not. That is also not required.

Exponentially increasing production power. Not mental power.

-------------

EDIT:
It doesn't take a droid to dream it up the first time. It could be a human the first time.

You don't need the human after the start though.

EDIT2:
I am making this argument to demonstrate the point that we NEED to make Chaos sit on the sidelines.

[druid91]

Can you source that first one for me? Cause that's like Galactic Scale Battle Meditation, which would A) Be really badass, and B) Kind of seems to diminish Palpatine's whole thing of being a cunningly magnificent bastard. I mean, if he's mind tricking the whole of the Empire into believing in him, that cool I guess, except I've never heard of that, but could see it being retconned into why the Rebellion "won" after Endor.

A number of sources IIRC, but the Thrawn trilogy is the first one that starts with that idea.

[Rakaydos]

As far as turning the Force into the Immaterium with psychic turmoil... I recently had reason to look up the Rakata (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rakata)

Long before the republic, befre even the sith empire, the Rakada made the sith look nice, psychically enslaving entire worlds and so forth, all their tech using the force like all the IoM's tech uses the warp.

Then one day, it all stopped working, and the rakata empire fell.

If we assume turmoil in the Force gives rise to immaerium entities, whatever God the Rakada whipped up Did Not Approve, apparently.

If this hypothetical entity still exists (and "the living force" is as good a name as any), there's no reason it cant do to IoM Warptech what it did to Rakata Forcetech.

[LordHavelock]

Firstly, even dumb people can do science. Not as well as the brilliant people, but simple random guess will eventually hit something useful.
Too slow to matter though.

Second, even the basic Star Wars droid is better than our best supercomputers today. They can walk, they can talk, they can see. They can shoot you.
This is not trivial, as CS people like to say.

Some of them (see the tactical droid linked above) can even do general problem solving! This is not a thing we have even begun to make in-roads to.

Third, Strong AI is defined as having similar capabilities to a human. Droids in the series are depicted as having human mental functions and able to operate on a comparable level with other humans (although not outdoing the best humans). They can do things they weren't explicitly made to do, they can solve general classes of problems, they can do just about anything.

That's Strong AI right there.

The term you are looking for is Superintelligence or variants on that theme. That I agree they are not. That is also not required.

Exponentially increasing production power. Not mental power.

-------------

EDIT:
It doesn't take a droid to dream it up the first time. It could be a human the first time.

You don't need the human after the start though.

Droids don't do those things because they have better technology than ours, they do it because the technology is different. They're still functionally no different from the Imperium's Servitors, just a little more commonplace and disposable, and often played up for laughs.

That's my overarching point. A Galaxy Conquering Droid army is not worth considering because it lies wholly outside the realm of what Star Wars, as a collective universe is prepared to deal with. The Separaists Droid army was just a re-skinned Clone Army that was easier for Lucas to de-humanize and therefore get past the censors.

[HamHam]

I read it just fine the first time, and at least some level of Droid innovation is required because some droid is going to have to dream that up in the first place.

Face it though, Droids are essentially Servitors with slightly more emotional range because it makes for comic relief. Galaxy spanning self-replicating droid armies don't happen for the same reason Servitors don't do the same thing in 40k, Droids just do it with a little more personality.

R2D2 pretty much proves this wrong. A droid with a heuristic processor that doesn't get mind wiped on schedule can and will expand far beyond it's original programming, easily equaling what an organic is capable of. Out of the box, they are obviously limited by the quality of their programming. Your generic Tactical Droid is a good tactician, but he's no Thrawn. But leave him to serve for decades in a war and he will probably end up on that level.

The actual problem with the droid army idea is that we are not dealing with magic nanite goo here. To build a new droid factory, the droids have to do it the old fashioned way. It's a process that would still take months, and is subject to the usual logistical concerns. Materials have to be shipped in, possibly from other planets. All you are really saving on by using droids is the cost of wages vs electricity, and training vs the cost of programmers (organic or droid) to write new software. And it comes at the cost of having a connection to the Force, which is fairly important in Star Wars, even for the untrained.

[druid91]

Droids don't do those things because they have better technology than ours, they do it because the technology is different. They're still functionally no different from the Imperium's Servitors, just a little more commonplace and disposable, and often played up for laughs.

That's my overarching point. A Galaxy Conquering Droid army is not worth considering because it lies wholly outside the realm of what Star Wars, as a collective universe is prepared to deal with. The Separaists Droid army was just a re-skinned Clone Army that was easier for Lucas to de-humanize and therefore get past the censors.

The issue is that you're taking minor plot points to "de-threat" a major villain.

Yeah. The droids were bumbling at times. These are still somewhat a little bit, kids movies. They need a bit of funny.

[Forum Explorer]

A number of sources IIRC, but the Thrawn trilogy is the first one that starts with that idea.

It seemed to be a lot more limited then galactic scale though. More like one or two battles that Palpatine is aware of already and focuses on.

[jseah]

Droids don't do those things because they have better technology than ours, they do it because the technology is different. They're still functionally no different from the Imperium's Servitors, just a little more commonplace and disposable, and often played up for laughs.
I would argue that this is not the case. Star Wars droids do have general problem solving and limited flexibility to interpret input.

C3PO and R2D2 in particular demonstrate initiative at times, taking actions to save our heroes (more than once I think) after having identified a course of action that would plausbily result in a favourable outcome.
(In areas that they were not made for too! The golden boy being a translator and the tincan, a mechanic)


The actual problem with the droid army idea is that we are not dealing with magic nanite goo here. To build a new droid factory, the droids have to do it the old fashioned way. It's a process that would still take months, and is subject to the usual logistical concerns. Materials have to be shipped in, possibly from other planets. All you are really saving on by using droids is the cost of wages vs electricity, and training vs the cost of programmers (organic or droid) to write new software. And it comes at the cost of having a connection to the Force, which is fairly important in Star Wars, even for the untrained.
It would still take months, but they are not actually limited by training. Copying already existing droid programming is essentially free.

Assemble factory, build new workforce, build new factory materials. A few months perhaps.

The bottleneck is most likely in the assembly and logistics. A single droid factory should be able to stamp out a full staff complement and the various parts in much shorter time than it takes to build the new building, install the machines and validate the setup.

What is likely to happen is that one factory would be supplying the parts to multiple factory construction sites in parallel.

[druid91]

It seemed to be a lot more limited then galactic scale though. More like one or two battles that Palpatine is aware of already and focuses on.

No, that's the way Thrawn does it with Joruus specifically to avoid that sort of dependency that Palpatines overuse of telepathy caused in the fleet.


I would argue that this is not the case. Star Wars droids do have general problem solving and limited flexibility to interpret input.

C3PO and R2D2 in particular demonstrate initiative at times, taking actions to save our heroes (more than once I think) after having identified a course of action that would plausbily result in a favourable outcome.
(In areas that they were not made for too! The golden boy being a translator and the tincan, a mechanic)

There's a stub on Wookiepedia about C-3P0 leading a droid revolution against a hutt.

C-3P0, the droid programmed to be incapable of violence violently overthrows a hutt.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Droid_rebellion

[HamHam]

It would still take months, but they are not actually limited by training. Copying already existing droid programming is essentially free.

The upfront cost compared to designing a training regime for organic troops is much, much higher. And if you skimp on it, or the people you hired are just not very good, you get the B1 line, which was somehow programmed with a talent for black comedy, but not how to shoot straight.

Sure, once you have a functional, effective template you can copy it endlessly. But in the short term the costs of training a regiment of Imperial Guard is probably lower because you just give them guns and do some basic if intense training. Evolution has already made them physically and mentally well suited to the task at hand and there is no issue of basic faults (whereas a B1 will pick up a grenade and look at it as it counts down).

[jseah]

Yes, of course, but you only have to do it once.

The Star Wars universe has shown itself to be capable of doing it more than once, given the rather large number of variants of combat droids that can shoot straight and throw grenades. Plus all the other variants of droids I mentioned upthread.

Why not just copy or alter one of them? They already have a rather large AI knowledge base.

[HamHam]

Yes, of course, but you only have to do it once.

The Star Wars universe has shown itself to be capable of doing it more than once, given the rather large number of variants of combat droids that can shoot straight and throw grenades. Plus all the other variants of droids I mentioned upthread.

Why not just copy or alter one of them? They already have a rather large AI knowledge base.

Basically, what I'm saying is:

The goal is to produce an army to fight the Imperium, yes? To meet that goal you can:

Draft people from your sizable population, give them guns, and put them through basic.

Mine a ton of metal and other materials and use it to manufacture war droids. Give those droids guns.

Breed an army of clones, give them guns.

These all seem to have individual strengths and weaknesses compared to the others, and I don't think one is strictly better than the others. In other words, the Empire investing in droid armies is not I think going to produce an army faster or larger than more traditional methods. The advantages would be more in diminishing costs over time with droids compared to relatively fixed costs with organic soldiers. The 1000th soldier costs the same to train as the 1st, but the 1000th droid is a lot cheaper than the 1st. They can also be replenished more easily, assuming you have the raw materials available.

But constructing the heavy industry and high tech precise industry capabilities to produce droids at the needed rate would take longer and be more expensive than a regular draft.

[Rakaydos]

Basically, what I'm saying is:

The goal is to produce an army to fight the Imperium, yes? To meet that goal you can:

Draft people from your sizable population, give them guns, and put them through basic.

Mine a ton of metal and other materials and use it to manufacture war droids. Give those droids guns.

Breed an army of clones, give them guns.

These all seem to have individual strengths and weaknesses compared to the others, and I don't think one is strictly better than the others. In other words, the Empire investing in droid armies is not I think going to produce an army faster or larger than more traditional methods. The advantages would be more in diminishing costs over time with droids compared to relatively fixed costs with organic soldiers. The 1000th soldier costs the same to train as the 1st, but the 1000th droid is a lot cheaper than the 1st. They can also be replenished more easily, assuming you have the raw materials available.

But constructing the heavy industry and high tech precise industry capabilities to produce droids at the needed rate would take longer and be more expensive than a regular draft.

OR 4) build an armored, automated factory that spits out droid combat vehicals as it "mines" the enemy for materials to make more droids. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Devastator)

We're doing this in the Dark Empire era, right? :p

EDIT: "Given sufficient time and resources, the World Devastators could even manufacture more World Devastators. Though it often took several months to fully consume a planet, the results were terrifying."

[HamHam]

OR 4) build an armored, automated factory that spits out droid combat vehicals as it "mines" the enemy for materials to make more droids. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Devastator)

We're doing this in the Dark Empire era, right? :p

EDIT: "Given sufficient time and resources, the World Devastators could even manufacture more World Devastators. Though it often took several months to fully consume a planet, the results were terrifying."

See, now that's the sort of thing you send a Titan Legion after. And it would be epic.

[Forum Explorer]

OR 4) build an armored, automated factory that spits out droid combat vehicals as it "mines" the enemy for materials to make more droids. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Devastator)

We're doing this in the Dark Empire era, right? :p

EDIT: "Given sufficient time and resources, the World Devastators could even manufacture more World Devastators. Though it often took several months to fully consume a planet, the results were terrifying."

That is a nasty weapon. But's it's nothing the Imperium hasn't really fought before. In fact that's kinda what Tyranids do all the time.

Anyways like most of the Empire's superweapons, it's really vulnerable to being boarded. Space Marines could teleport in, massacre everyone, sabotage the ship, and then leave.

Actually I don't think there is any superweapon in Star Wars that can't be killed in a similar manner.

[HamHam]

That is a nasty weapon. But's it's nothing the Imperium hasn't really fought before. In fact that's kinda what Tyranids do all the time.

Anyways like most of the Empire's superweapons, it's really vulnerable to being boarded. Space Marines could teleport in, massacre everyone, sabotage the ship, and then leave.

Actually I don't think there is any superweapon in Star Wars that can't be killed in a similar manner.

Well, with the Galaxy Gun the Deathwatch has to actually find the thing first considering it can be shooting from anywhere in the galaxy.

[Rakaydos]

The problem was that the Empire tried to use them as an offensive weapon.

Their real strength comes to the fore if you leave them sitting in, say, the Alderaan system for a year or two building copies of themselves out of planetary wreckage, builing themselvs hyperdrives, and jumping to the next system.

They are EXACTLY what Jseah was talking about- Droids building droids who build droids, with all the schematics and templates needed to build a war machine from the ground up. Start them up in an untraveled part of the IoM, and by the time the titan legions even hear about it, they've already "grey goo'd" a measurable fraction of the galaxy.

[HamHam]

The problem was that the Empire tried to use them as an offensive weapon.

Their real strength comes to the fore if you leave them sitting in, say, the Alderaan system for a year or two building copies of themselves out of planetary wreckage, builing themselvs hyperdrives, and jumping to the next system.

They are EXACTLY what Jseah was talking about- Droids building droids who build droids, with all the schematics and templates needed to build a war machine from the ground up. Start them up in an untraveled part of the IoM, and by the time the titan legions even hear about it, they've already "grey goo'd" a measurable fraction of the galaxy.

You're talking about them basically just spending years hanging out in unexplored space just to make a lot of them.

1) The war could be over by then.

2) They remain vulnerable to the same sort of technobabble solutions the Republic used to beat them: computer viruses, sending the shutdown command, etc.

[Rakaydos]

The war could be over? Against the Imperium of Man? The ioM would have barely begun assembling a proper crusade by then.

Somehow, I dont think Darth Vader Luke Skywalker is going to sabtage factory ships in another galaxy protecting everyone from the destruction and chaos the IoM brings with it... And Noone below him even gets the codes needed.

And I doubt sactioned techpriests would be CAPABLE of doing a technobable hack, certiantly not when opposed by a powerful machine spirit. (Techno heresy is another issue, of course)

[HamHam]

The war could be over? Against the Imperium of Man? The ioM would have barely begun assembling a proper crusade by then.

Somehow, I dont think Darth Vader Luke Skywalker is going to sabtage factory ships in another galaxy protecting everyone from the destruction and chaos the IoM brings with it... And Noone below him even gets the codes needed.

And I doubt sactioned techpriests would be CAPABLE of doing a technobable hack, certiantly not when opposed by a powerful machine spirit. (Techno heresy is another issue, of course)

The Imperium has so many psychic and what not methods of getting those codes. Some of them not even requiring them to be in the same system as you.

And the upper echelons of the Adeptus Mechanicus are actually surprisingly good at the their jobs. All that pseudo-science is really more for show. When the Imperium needs them to make a machine spirit to mess up the World Devastators' cogitators, they can probably deliver.

[Rakaydos]

The Imperium has so many psychic and what not methods of getting those codes. Some of them not even requiring them to be in the same system as you.

And the upper echelons of the Adeptus Mechanicus are actually surprisingly good at the their jobs. All that pseudo-science is really more for show. When the Imperium needs them to make a machine spirit to mess up the World Devastators' cogitators, they can probably deliver.

And by which point they can scramble any system full of world devastators any time they send a techpriest of the proper rank to deal with it. Meanwhile the other systems are continuing to expand, exponentially. The IoM's initial inertia is what gives the WDs the time to get critical mass, after which they are as impossible to stop as a tyranid hive fleet, for the same reasons.

[HamHam]

And by which point they can scramble any system full of world devastators any time they send a techpriest of the proper rank to deal with it. Meanwhile the other systems are continuing to expand, exponentially. The IoM's initial inertia is what gives the WDs the time to get critical mass, after which they are as impossible to stop as a tyranid hive fleet, for the same reasons.

Except for all those hive fleets we've stopped?

[hamishspence]

Yeah, someone with Doctorate in Astrophysics or author who was fired for throwing her petty vendettas everywhere and obsessive correcting of everything, George Lucas included, in her works.

Tough choice :smalltongue:

A myth - Traviss wasn't fired - she resigned.

Saxton stopped writing for Star Wars after they refused to endorse his Endor Holocaust theory.

Moving on - the newest works - like The Essential Guide to Warfare - tend to be minimalistic - and ignore what Saxton wrote. The "160 km DS1 and 900 km DS2" figures he used have been replaced with the older "120 km DS1 and 160 km DS2" figures - in Death Star Owner's Technical Manual.

So - we can probably say that the "modern, post-Saxton EU" much more closely resembles the pre-Saxton EU.


A number of sources IIRC, but the Thrawn trilogy is the first one that starts with that idea.

Yup - drawing on the way the Imperial effort collapses during the RoTJ novel after the Emperor's death.

Though later sources suggest that one of his Grand Admirals (a Force-sensitive) was doing the work rather than him.

[jseah]

Except for all those hive fleets we've stopped?
Unlike hive fleets, these ones aren't just eating your biosphere. Let one of these at a planet for a while and you don't have a planet anymore. Tyranid fleets do not outmass planets.

It is like Tyranids except that this one grows on every single planet and asteroid. Organics turn into fuel, metal and silicate rocks become structural materials.

It will even eat destroyed starships (the perfect "food" in a sense, being made of materials in a similar ratio to what is required).


Plus these also FTL faster than the IoM. Just to make a bad situation worse, the IoM will not outmaneuver these strategically, unlike the Tyranids. They get outmaneuvered by these instead.


Note that the same arguments apply to self-replicating droid war machines (in the sense of the system of spacefleets + support infrastructure).

Re deactivation codes:
Solution to being hacked for the codes is to not have one.
Alternately, all of them generate a new unique code.

-----------------------

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/EVS_Construction_Droid

Anyone know if these are valid for this vs? I don't know enough about the canonicity rules.

They can build a structure in weeks, being a factory for pre-fab buildings on legs. That would shorten the droid factory duplication time by quite a bit indeed. At least if they were updated with new non-crashy droid brains (seriously, the brain has got to be the cheapest part of that thing, it has molecular furnances just like the Devastator mentioned above).

-----------------------------


But constructing the heavy industry and high tech precise industry capabilities to produce droids at the needed rate would take longer and be more expensive than a regular draft.
The main advantage of a pure droid army is that the "army" also contains droid factories and mineral mines. Upon which replacement become free since the droids (all owned by you) replace themselves.

The best part is that they can replace their own hardware, which is the most important. The key assets in this sort of war is space superiority and space to ground weapons platforms. The majority of your "spending" (or droid manufacturing output) will be in capital ships and starfighters, plus associated support & logistics.


Yes, you can speed up the exponential explosion by drafting people to work in droid production factories but due to the "magic" of exponentially increasing production power, you have to exponentially increase the initial boost to get a linear decrease in time to reach a specified number of forces.

Best just to start with a small fleet of self-contained construction ships like that Devastator. Give it a core crew of standing army personnel and turn them loose. Everyone else can play a holding action while the droid fleet builds itself up into an unstoppable steamroller.

Divide the human overseers in half each time the fleet divides (say to move to richer systems) until you reach 1 human commander and droids all the way down. This will be reached rather quickly, given any amount of initial humans.
By that time, you might as well turn all your human armies into droid overseers. They'll welcome you for the cushy job which doesn't involve getting shot at unless they screw up.


Another "magic" of exponential explosion is that you can eat quite large inefficiencies and it only increases the time to reach critical mass by... not very much. The only thing you need to be "efficient" about is the doubling time. The rest takes care of itself.

[hamishspence]

Anyone know if these are valid for this vs? I don't know enough about the canonicity rules.

The OP said "EU included"

- which means, everything but Infinities, as long as newer content doesn't contradict the older content".

So - construction droids exist.

Given how small a World Devastator is - and the limited amount of material it can suck into its "mouth" at a time - it is possible that it (or even a small fleet of them) just doesn't have time to eat a planet all the way down to the core.

[Fan]

Starwars wins this.

Anyone who's seen me in previous threads ought to find this surprising from me.

However, this is only because people like the GEoM aren't allowed in. Though with EU, Starwars wins even that as The Emperor in EU: star wars has time stop abilities and solar system level feats as well, even if he is much slower he also has Vader and debateably Luke who is as fast as The GEoM if in possession of weaker magic haberdashery.

They win in space, they have equivalent ground forces with better armor, if worse aim, as their mainstay and while Space Marines are better than anything the Empire can field on the ground there is in fact nothing The Imperium can do to get those forces to the ground.

Holy Terra burns, and it is a sad day.

Barring us using things like Great Crusade Imperium which has multiple Hypersonics to field on the ground, and each SM legion numbers in the 100,000's rather than the thousands giving them hundreds of millions of space marines rather than just 100,000. And psykers capable of taking control of enemy ships, or Dark age of Technology 40k because Iron Men are ridiculous.

Otherwise, SW takes this with ease thanks to it's higher tiers being on par with The Emperor on the Chair and able to actively do things, and having more than 1 ship that can hit the hundreds of times FTL mark.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Or, the Emperor plays suck-up to the Imperium while appeasing him (Palpatine doesn't like aliens and droids anyway), and schemes his way into control.

I find it amusing that, barring the vast time difference, this fight could concievably occur. Hey, maybe hyperspace IS the Warp before Daemons got ahold of it.

[Fan]

Or, the Emperor plays suck-up to the Imperium while appeasing him (Palpatine doesn't like aliens and droids anyway), and schemes his way into control.

I find it amusing that, barring the vast time difference, this fight could concievably occur. Hey, maybe hyperspace IS the Warp before Daemons got ahold of it.

If it becomes diplomacy The GEoM is a MUCH stronger telepath than The Emperor is by himself, having a galactic activity range rather than single planet range on his telepathy (The Emperor had to be on Coruscant to cloud The Jedi Order's telepathy, it's one of many reasons he was never active in the clone wars.), and ends up pulling a Palpatine on Palpatine via mind controlling all the Senators / High Commanders in his armies and just going from there to narrow the Emperor down to a 1 on 1 duel where he loses to an FTL set of LASER EYE BEEEEEAMS.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The Emprah is also entombed in the Golden Throne, unless this crossover takes place during the Great Crusades, which isn't the Imperium as most people know them, i.e. catholic space nazis.

[Fan]

The Emprah is also entombed in the Golden Throne, unless this crossover takes place during the Great Crusades, which isn't the Imperium as most people know them, i.e. catholic space nazis.

Well they're still Catholic Space Nazis during The Great Crusade.. It's what the name comes from, The GEoM is a literal pope analog.

They still cleanse the Xenos, they still purge the heretic, the only difference is that they are MUCH MUCH better at doing it.

[druid91]

Well they're still Catholic Space Nazis during The Great Crusade.. It's what the name comes from, The GEoM is a literal pope analog.

They still cleanse the Xenos, they still purge the heretic, the only difference is that they are MUCH MUCH better at doing it.

And technically atheist.

[Fan]

And technically atheist.

Which is hilarious given the GEoM is the only atheist at the time.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

What about other factions? Yuuzhan Vong versus Tyran-AHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, knew I couldn't type that with a straight face while thinking of force-immune 'nids who dont't feel pain.

[ShadowFireLance]

I'm going to counter here.

Fan, What say you against The Void Dragon? If it escapes, wasn't it something that took the GEoM a while to put down?

What about the full on Necron Armies? You're just comparing The Imperium, not The Tyranids, or the Orks. You've got FOUR Near omnipotent beings in The Chaos Armies, those should outclass Star Wars Emperor.

[Boci]

I'm going to counter here.

Fan, What say you against The Void Dragon? If it escapes, wasn't it something that took the GEoM a while to put down?

What about the full on Necron Armies? You're just comparing The Imperium, not The Tyranids, or the Orks. You've got FOUR Near omnipotent beings in The Chaos Armies, those should outclass Star Wars Emperor.

Well yes, but unless the paramaters have changed since the opening post, its Imperium vs. Empire, not Starwars-verse vs. 40kverse.

[Rakaydos]

I'm not even sure if the GEoM's feats while he as alive should be counted in this regard- he may be -technically- alive, but barring someone fixing the throne or a death+rebirth, he isnt going to be doing much more than be a lighthouse in the warp.

[The Glyphstone]

He can also do funky things with time compression within the Imperial Palace/Throne Room itself, but if it comes down to that mattering, the IoM is already beyond screwed.

Any other of his personal post-Heresy abilities are in-universe rumor, conjecture, and myth.

[GloatingSwine]

Starwars wins this.

However, this is only because people like the GEoM aren't allowed in. Though with EU, Starwars wins even that as The Emperor in EU

I dunno, I think the easiest way to stop Star Wars winning is by including the Emperor.

Because he's not going to so much "fall" to Chaos as jump gleefully, since he and Tzeentch were all but born to be BFFs, and probably end up a Daemon Prince pretty quickly, use the power of his Empire to crush both galaxies, just as planned, but then because Chaos is inherently self-defeating lose it all to a plucky yet determined rebellion leaving both split into warring factions and beset on all sides by ancient and terrible threats.

So pretty much the status quo then.

[druid91]

I dunno, I think the easiest way to stop Star Wars winning is by including the Emperor.

Because he's not going to so much "fall" to Chaos as jump gleefully, since he and Tzeentch were all but born to be BFFs, and probably end up a Daemon Prince pretty quickly, use the power of his Empire to crush both galaxies, just as planned, but then because Chaos is inherently self-defeating lose it all to a plucky yet determined rebellion leaving both split into warring factions and beset on all sides by ancient and terrible threats.

So pretty much the status quo then.

We had this discussion before.

If Emps falls to Tzeentch, then Vader falls to Khorne.

[The Glyphstone]

We had this discussion before.

If Emps falls to Tzeentch, then Vader falls to Khorne.

And this is a problem why? Tzeentch is the polar opposite of Nurgle, and Khorne is most against Slaanesh. Tzeentch and Khorne aren't exactly bosom buddies (psykers yo), but they can work together.

[Forum Explorer]

Hive Fleets eat everything useful, not just the biosphere. And I'm assuming that in this scenario the Imperium doesn't have to deal with all of it's usual threats so it'll actually be able to focus it's efforts on the Empire and quickly.

And when it comes to big threats like World Devastators or the World Engine the Imperium does react very quickly. Because that's the main job of Inquisitors and Space Marines. Taking out the gigantic immediate threats that must be stopped. As for things like the Galaxy gun, well precogs do exist in the Imperium and while they suck for small stuff I think the Galaxy gun would certainly count as something big enough to be easily spotted.

[Zaydos]

Hey, one could argue for Vader being Tzeentch as he is a sorcerer, who turns to Chaos/the Dark Side due to feeling like Fate has chosen him to be the Hope of the Galaxy and out of the Hope that it will allow him to save what he loves most.

Even killing the Emperor in Episode VI is an act of Hope that his son represents a better future.

Ok, my tongue might be in my cheek a bit here, but really Vader is typically torn between and motivated by rage, self-hate, despair, and hope.

[Forum Explorer]

Hey, one could argue for Vader being Tzeentch as he is a sorcerer, who turns to Chaos/the Dark Side due to feeling like Fate has chosen him to be the Hope of the Galaxy and out of the Hope that it will allow him to save what he loves most.

Even killing the Emperor in Episode VI is an act of Hope that his son represents a better future.

Ok, my tongue might be in my cheek a bit here, but really Vader is typically torn between and motivated by rage, self-hate, despair, and hope.

Wait, isn't Tzeentch Ambition? I thought Nurgle was Hope (and yes I couldn't totally see Vader being a champion of Nurgle)

[The Glyphstone]

Tzeentch's 'portfolio' is Change, Sorcery, Fate and Hope. Nurgle is Disease, Decay, Despair, and Destruction (and in a way, Life/Rebirth). Khorne is War, Murder, and Battle. Slaanesh is Pleasure, Sensation and Desire.

[Cheesegear]

Wait, isn't Tzeentch Ambition? I thought Nurgle was Hope (and yes I couldn't totally see Vader being a champion of Nurgle)

Tzeentch eats Hope, it's his favourite meal.
Nurgle eats Fear, funnily enough.

Khorne doesn't like it when people use psychic powers. However, The Iron Druid method of powering yourself up and then using a sword to cut people's heads off seems to be legit.

[jseah]

Hive Fleets eat everything useful, not just the biosphere. And I'm assuming that in this scenario the Imperium doesn't have to deal with all of it's usual threats so it'll actually be able to focus it's efforts on the Empire and quickly.
Devastators eat rocks too. It's said that they disassemble entire planets. (though slower than the Death Star, obviously)

Which means whatever they put out could end up out massing planets if they eat more than one (which they will).

And in the case of a competent overall commander (any suggestions/takers?), the Devastators won't see the front line. Droid crewed SDs and SSDs would be the frontline while the Devastators self-replicate in uninhabitated (or vacated systems =D).

Plus, even if the IoM can rally faster vs these guys than they could vs Tyranids due to having no other enemies, the Devastators have faster FTL than the IoM. With somewhat of a buffer zone of defensive fleets, the Devastators can easily run away while the IoM tries to batter through to them. Coz unlike the Tyranids, the Star Wars faction can have sector-wide coordination due to usefully fast FTL.
The FTL advantage is not insignificant. It cannot be ignored.

[Forum Explorer]

Devastators eat rocks too. It's said that they disassemble entire planets. (though slower than the Death Star, obviously)

Which means whatever they put out could end up out massing planets if they eat more than one (which they will).

And in the case of a competent overall commander (any suggestions/takers?), the Devastators won't see the front line. Droid crewed SDs and SSDs would be the frontline while the Devastators self-replicate in uninhabitated (or vacated systems =D).

Plus, even if the IoM can rally faster vs these guys than they could vs Tyranids due to having no other enemies, the Devastators have faster FTL than the IoM. With somewhat of a buffer zone of defensive fleets, the Devastators can easily run away while the IoM tries to batter through to them. Coz unlike the Tyranids, the Star Wars faction can have sector-wide coordination due to usefully fast FTL.
The FTL advantage is not insignificant. It cannot be ignored.

Well let's look at how the Devastators were traditionally used. Yeah that's right. They were deployed on the front lines, practically all on their own (in comparison to say what the Galactic Gun was escorted with), against the strongest known rebel planet. Then they were never really used ever again.

So why do you think Palpatine will suddenly be smarter now? :smallwink:

[jseah]

Well let's look at how the Devastators were traditionally used. Yeah that's right. They were deployed on the front lines, practically all on their own (in comparison to say what the Galactic Gun was escorted with), against the strongest known rebel planet. Then they were never really used ever again.

So why do you think Palpatine will suddenly be smarter now? :smallwink:
That is the admitted weakness of the method. =D

[Fan]

He can also do funky things with time compression within the Imperial Palace/Throne Room itself, but if it comes down to that mattering, the IoM is already beyond screwed.

Any other of his personal post-Heresy abilities are in-universe rumor, conjecture, and myth.

His time stop / teleport is on a galactic scale. He was able to teleport one of the individuals from an outer solar system planet to Terra proper later on.

It all depends on what feats you count really, and when you take the GEoM.

If we take the GEoM off the throne and give him his best feats, his a Galactic Telepath, who can stop time on that scale and teleport people on that scale, and has Solar System level destruction feats while being hypersonic, and capable of mountain -> continent busting (very dubiously, hence why I'm giving this one a range as this relies on using the feats of other primarchs to measure him by, even accounting for the castle sized void dragon being tossed at escape velocity.).

This puts him above The Emperor from SW on an individual basis, as far as a duel would go.

However, tactically..It's a toss up. On one hand you have a universe that takes The Thrawn Doctrine seriously enough to field AT-AT's as their main stay tank.

On the other you have a group that takes their fanaticism so seriously they pray to their guns.

Both are rather fond of undervaluing the lives of their soldiers, but Stormtrooper armor has been beaten by Ewoks, but at the same time Imperial Guardsmen are regularly served for dinner at Feral Ork encampments.

SW still wins because of their massive travel FTL advantage, it'd take something like a completely calm warp to equalize that, or The IoM using The Golden throne for it's original purpose as The Webway is pretty much instant.

[jseah]

So why do you think Palpatine will suddenly be smarter now? :smallwink:
Actually, thinking about this more, from what I've heard of the biribiri guy here on this thread, and what I have seen of the other less named people, it seems that what Palpatine needs to do is to learn how to delegate.
He has crappy tactical and strategic sense apparently.

You know, have trustable subordinates who you can say "this is what I want you to do, what resources do you need?" to and not have to worry about how exactly they're going to do that?

Perhaps pick some of the frontline SD captains? Or simply give the job to Vader (or is that helmet man just as bad at the tactics thing?).

[Fan]

Actually, thinking about this more, from what I've heard of the biribiri guy here on this thread, and what I have seen of the other less named people, it seems that what Palpatine needs to do is to learn how to delegate.
He has crappy tactical and strategic sense apparently.

You know, have trustable subordinates who you can say "this is what I want you to do, what resources do you need?" to and not have to worry about how exactly they're going to do that?

Perhaps pick some of the frontline SD captains? Or simply give the job to Vader (or is that helmet man just as bad at the tactics thing?).

"It's over Anakin, I have the high ground!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIslHNMf3g8)

Lord Vader isn't so good at tactics, or moral debates.

[GloatingSwine]

On the other you have a group that takes their fanaticism so seriously they pray to their guns.


Given the vagiaries of the Warp, sometimes praying to your gun works.

(and then it eats your brain).

[Forum Explorer]

Actually, thinking about this more, from what I've heard of the biribiri guy here on this thread, and what I have seen of the other less named people, it seems that what Palpatine needs to do is to learn how to delegate.
He has crappy tactical and strategic sense apparently.

You know, have trustable subordinates who you can say "this is what I want you to do, what resources do you need?" to and not have to worry about how exactly they're going to do that?

Perhaps pick some of the frontline SD captains? Or simply give the job to Vader (or is that helmet man just as bad at the tactics thing?).

Except some of them aren't much better. Namely Tarkin. Also Palpatine is paranoid, and I think suffering from some sort of clone degradation by Dark Empire. (Maybe? Don't quote me on that).

Vader I'm not sure about. I think he's decent tactically but doesn't really do strategic thinking.

[Rakaydos]

Admrials Dallah or Thrawn, perhaps? Captian Pellian (or whatever his name is) ends up in charge of the Imperial Remenant by dint of being the right hand man of every single successul rise against the republic...

[Forum Explorer]

Admrials Dallah or Thrawn, perhaps? Captian Pellian (or whatever his name is) ends up in charge of the Imperial Remenant by dint of being the right hand man of every single successul rise against the republic...

Thrawn is well Thrawn and appropriately amazing. Admiral Dallah isn't nearly as good in the story I read (4 SSD and then managed to lose every fight that she didn't possess an absolutely overwhelming advantage) I know she's in other EU stories but I haven't read them so I can't speak to her performance there. Pellian is pretty decent and practical.

But well, Thrawn was regulated off to some far off part of the galaxy (though he might be the person Palpatine would send against the IoM since it would be presumably far away) Dallah was placed in charge of a secret facility and then basically was told to never do anything.

[Aotrs Commander]

Dallah was placed in charge of a secret facility and then basically was told to never do anything.

Well, considering her aforementioned track record, it's perhaps no surprise why THAT was...! Either she was a better administrator than commander, or just promoted to an obscure position to get her out of the way...!

[Dark Tira]

Well, considering her aforementioned track record, it's perhaps no surprise why THAT was...! Either she was a better administrator than commander, or just promoted to an obscure position to get her out of the way...!

I believe, it's actually canonically the latter because the Emperor didn't like aliens or women and Tarkin had to shove her someplace out of the way. That being said, she pretty well proved her incompetence, though to be fair at least one of her failures was believing that Admiral Ackbar wouldn't recognize a trap.

[Forum Explorer]

I believe, it's actually canonically the latter because the Emperor didn't like aliens or women and Tarkin had to shove her someplace out of the way. That being said, she pretty well proved her incompetence. Though to be fair at least one of her failures was believing that Admiral Ackbar wouldn't recognize a trap.

That line got me laughing. :smallbiggrin:

[russdm]

I believe, it's actually canonically the latter because the Emperor didn't like aliens or women and Tarkin had to shove her someplace out of the way. That being said, she pretty well proved her incompetence, though to be fair at least one of her failures was believing that Admiral Ackbar wouldn't recognize a trap.

She was given 4 ISDs, not SSDs. Then assigned to safeguard the maw. When she came out she sent them off fighting in one fashion or another, and Ackbar sent a half-built ship into one of her ISDs which she should have recognized, it took enough time to be noticed by Leia who was on planet. She took either all 4 or atleast 3 of her ISDs, then proceeded to lose all but one or two afterward she joined one of the Imperial Warlords, where she killed them all. Then she got an SSD that she subsequently lost to Luke's insensitive to the Force girlfriend Via TIE Bomber blow-ups or something. Not exactly her shining moments. Later, she gets appointed head of state for the Galactic Alliance, and she manages to botch the job. This causes her to get rescued by Boba Fett, who in a twist of hilarity is posing as someone posing as Fett (Yes, it sounds wacky, still funny). The next time we see her, she is a candidate to become head of the Empire. After she loses there, we don't see her again, as far as I know. Oh, and she has an eye-patch like a pirate.

[Legato Endless]

Dallah is what happens when someone tries to create a Thrawn character but can't actually make them intelligent. Or competent. Or win much of anything. Hence the old joke she slept with Tarquin to get where she is. I actually like the theory she's force sensitive. She doesn't have any military talent, but she's able to warp the perceptions of others around her. This is how a political pariah got elected leader of the galaxy, and why the heroes always panic when they hear about her return despite her being one of the least threatening people the EU ever created.

The newest explanation I heard was that she was actually a talented ground forces commander, which we conveniently never see. However, that still begs the question why she was allowed to keep her position as a fleet commander, despite her repeated demonstrations of idiocy.