Character Deaths and the Loot Pinata Problem

[Amphetryon]

I'm curious as to how the members of GitP deal with a little-discussed aspect of Character death - specifically, how the redistribution of a PC's gear, in conjunction with the introduction of a replacement PC, can inflate the party's wealth beyond expected WBL guidelines.

For example, a party of four 3rd Level PCs go adventuring in the "Tomb of the Forge Master," each acquiring a +1 Magic Weapon while reclaiming this long-neglected final resting place of a master weaponsmith from the Underfolk who had re-purposed it as their lair. Let's make the group a Dread Necromancer, an Air Shugenja, a Swordsage, and a Psychic Warrior, simply so we have a concrete example. They each already had masterworked or magical armor +1 before entering the tomb. In battling their way out, the Shugenja is killed by a lucky Critical Hit from a Heavy Pick. The group - including the Shugenja's Player - agrees that a Raise Dead would be too large a drain on party resources at this point, and the Player creates a new Character. . . let's say, a Spirit Shaman, with appropriate gear for a Character at 3rd Level.

The party now has an extra PC's worth of gear, in addition to the loot they got from the TotFM. In theory, they can sell this gear in order to buy specific items the party can use to make them more effective. This can potentially result in encounters that are easier than their CR and past experience as a group would indicate, or, conversely, in the DM increasing the difficulty of encounters to deal with the PCs' new level of preparedness. In the former case, the party is often getting additional wealth from encounters without expending commensurate resources; in the latter case, the party is often dealing with Rocket Tag turned up to 11, increasing the odds of an additional Character death. Both situations can potentially lead to a snowballing cycle of the group's wealth growing at a rate higher than the game typically expects.

So, what solutions have you found?

[Shining Wrath]

Why does the new 3rd level character get full loot if the party already has loot from a 3rd level character?

Give the new 3rd level character the Shugenja loot and enough gold to make up for having to sell unusable stuff and buy usable.

[Psyren]

WBL is a general guideline rather than a strict observance - it's okay for the game to fluctuate above or below it for a series of encounters or even sessions. If they do get richer than you planned, simply tilt the balance to throw low-wealth encounters at them for awhile. Maybe most of their foes become creatures that don't have much in the way of gear for awhile, like magical beasts/constructs/oozes, or maybe the intelligent enemies they face rely more on consumables (which they naturally used before the encounter started.)

The magic mart problem is a separate issue; my general advice is that you tightly control what can be bought/sold in your setting (after all, you don't want them taking a pickaxe to their walls of salt/iron and neglecting adventuring entirely), and when things are sellable, require Appraise and Diplomacy checks to get the full 50% resale value.

[Shinken]

In my games, players usually get their characters ressurrected instead of "rerolling". In the few cases where it made sense that the character stay dead, they chose to bring the body and the character's possessions back to their family.
I believe your problem is more about the player characters not really giving a damn about each other than anything else.

[Jon_Dahl]

An in-game method might be worth the try before you try something else: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334979

[Perturbulent]

A consistently good option from my experience (although vaguely metagaming) is to use that wealth for roleplaying purposes. If the gained wealth is the wealth offered to a church, used to build a castle, buy a ship, rebuild a town, bribe a dragon, or similar non-mechanical advantages, the problem disappears.

This of course only works if your players are cooperative and aware of the consequences.

In a recent experience, an adamantine war-forged in the party died at level 1 in the hands of a largely evil party. They gutted him for his adamantine and began to build a keep.

[Amphetryon]

Why does the new 3rd level character get full loot if the party already has loot from a 3rd level character?

Give the new 3rd level character the Shugenja loot and enough gold to make up for having to sell unusable stuff and buy usable.

This method would appear, at first glance, to require the new Character to either be spec'd to take best advantage of the Shugenja's existing loot (limiting creative options) or or to accept being stuck at 50% or less of expected wealth after selling the gear for more appropriate choices (limiting the Character's effectiveness and possibly increasing the odds of another death by being under-equipped).

[Psyren]

In a recent experience, an adamantine war-forged in the party died at level 1 in the hands of a largely evil party. They gutted him for his adamantine and began to build a keep.

You mean they sold his adamantine, right? I doubt they'd have gotten enough to make even one door of it.

[The Prince of Cats]

From my perspective, there are only two options:

Gear one 'tier' below their old character (so MW in place of +1, +1 in place of +2, etc.) and let the party rearrange the dead character's loot to re-balance the party.

..or...

Let the dead person keep their stuff (yes, bury / burn them or take them home with all their gear still attached) and then the new character has equivalent gear.

The second option is how my current DM played character-retirement, but I doubt we'd need a new character to have any of their own gear given how rich we have got by accident (we replayed levels 1-7 without gaining XP, so we are at 2x WBL)

[hemming]

For certain aspects of cosmology, I kind of like the idea of your possessions travelling with you in some form to the next life (he is using his +5 sword in Ysgard now - RIP)

Granted - this does not make sense with all the various versions of the afterlife in the game and leaves a sticky wicket as to why this doesn't happen with foes possessions as well

In some cases, I think it would make sense for rightful ownership to revert to an organization the PC had been involved with (but this requires the PCs to care about rightful ownership) - DMs rarely enforce RAW organizational commitments such as taxes and religious tithes as is though, so it would seem quite out of the blue without strong precedent

I am now strongly considering providing my PCs with the opportunity to write a last will and testament and name a trusted NPC/PC ally as the executor of the will (just what my game needed - barristers!)

You could then run into the issue of them leaving their possessions to the others - but many PCs with strong religious or other organizational commitments (or with living family members) will not leave the bulk of their wealth to their brothers in arms (at least in an RP heavy game)

[Psyren]

I can understand wanting to bury someone's Holy Avenger with them, or Robe of the Archmagi or something... but by the same token I don't see a whole lot of sentimental value in someone's potions, rods, belt of giant strength etc. I don't think it's disrespectful of the party to keep some items, particularly consumables or more generic equipment, and certainly not anything that conveys information like their Blessed Book or Gem of Seeing.

[Perturbulent]

You mean they sold his adamantine, right? I doubt they'd have gotten enough to make even one door of it.

Yes they sold the adamantine for quite a sum and built a keep using the funds.

[Story]

In both of the groups I've been in, a character death resulted in immediate resurrection. Then again, neither DM was particularly good at maintaining WBL either (in the second campaign, I managed to get a Hathran Mask of True Seeing at level 9!).

[John Longarrow]

Having encountered this in the past, myself and another DM came to the same conclusion, figure out your ECL, figure out what level your gear is for, add the two and divide in half. That gives a good "Effective Character Level" for encounters and XPs.

If you have a 10th level character with 14th level gear, treat them as 12th for encoutners and the XPs they get for those encounters.

This tends to balance out pretty quickly as the party starts moving value to "Party loot" or otherwise moving off their characters so their wealth becomes closer to their WBL.

After all, a 1st level fighter in full plate and shield with a +1 sword long (3rd level WBL) should fill in for a 2nd level fighter in chain shirt, shield and MW long sword (2nd level WBL).

[ddude987]

How we do it in my group is characters that die or leave the party take their loot with them and new characters coming in are given new loot. When a character dies, the only loot we keep is key items.

[atomicwaffle]

banish the party to crippling poverty by making them fight undead, constructs, and homebrews that don't drop treasure. IF they overcome this, TPK them and turn them into vampires.

[DigoDragon]

How we do it in my group is characters that die or leave the party take their loot with them and new characters coming in are given new loot. When a character dies, the only loot we keep is key items.

This becomes easy in my group when many times the PCs that die do so in spectacular ways like getting crushed between giant gears. We just assume most of their gear gets destroyed with them in those cases.

Otherwise, the party has extra wealth to kick around. To be honest, it's like the real-life statistic that 50% of Lottery winners go broke in 5 years. At least for my players, they end up hocking the extra wealth to add more enchantments on their enchantments, they buy scrolls for utility spells that are mostly convinience, or they donate extra cash to fix the orphanage they accidently damaged.

The little boost in wealth doesn't do much to unbalance the party in the long run. Adventurers do have their gear occasionally broken when they do things like poke at a hole with their staff. GMs can update future treasures to reflect the party's current wealth. Things work themselves out in my experience.

[Segev]

One way to handle it is to quietly reduce the amount of treasure handed out going forward until the party is at appropriate WBL.

[Shining Wrath]

This method would appear, at first glance, to require the new Character to either be spec'd to take best advantage of the Shugenja's existing loot (limiting creative options) or or to accept being stuck at 50% or less of expected wealth after selling the gear for more appropriate choices (limiting the Character's effectiveness and possibly increasing the odds of another death by being under-equipped).

Which is why I explicitly mention adding gold to make up for the equipment not usable by the new character which must be sold at a discount.

[Amphetryon]

Which is why I explicitly mention adding gold to make up for the equipment not usable by the new character which must be sold at a discount.

If you're giving out additional gold, then what's the point of enforcing the discount, precisely?

[Big Fau]

In a recent experience, an adamantine war-forged in the party died at level 1 in the hands of a largely evil party. They gutted him for his adamantine and began to build a keep.


You mean they sold his adamantine, right? I doubt they'd have gotten enough to make even one door of it.


Yes they sold the adamantine for quite a sum and built a keep using the funds.

I forget where it was stated (I know there's a forum post about it, but I remember seeing it in a splat, and I think it was RoE), but you can't separate the adamantine from a Warforged without the metal decaying into dust.

[Shining Wrath]

If you're giving out additional gold, then what's the point of enforcing the discount, precisely?

Le sigh.

Characters get some starting gold.

This character gets some starting gold.

Specifically, enough to make up for not being able to use all of the dead character's stuff.

So everyone starts at approximately correct WBL.

The rules do not require a DM to let a new PC start with all the gold from the WBL table plus all the gold from his "predecessor". In fact, some DM's will have a replacement character start at a lower level than the current party, not just in wealth, but in ECL.

[Slipperychicken]

Why don't you just make each PC have a will which doesn't involve giving stuff to other PCs? Also explain the reason behind the rule. This way, people IC and OOC have a good reason to return the stuff to the characters' next of kin.

[Segev]

Why don't you just make each PC have a will which doesn't involve giving stuff to other PCs? Also explain the reason behind the rule. This way, people IC and OOC have a good reason to return the stuff to the characters' next of kin.

"My CN Rogue volunteers to get all of that turned over to the next-of-kin, and then sells it and pockets it when the rest of the party doesn't know." Alternatively, "Our CN party says 'what will?' and pockets it."

It's a potential solution for the right party, but there're all sorts of ways that can fail to work.

[The Prince of Cats]

Why don't you just make each PC have a will which doesn't involve giving stuff to other PCs? Also explain the reason behind the rule. This way, people IC and OOC have a good reason to return the stuff to the characters' next of kin.

Number one reason: how can anyone "take up his father's sword" if the rest of the party have decided to divide up his gear between them?

Death does not suddenly make all your stuff party-property (unless you were an enemy of the party, in which case it's all legitimate spoils of war) and so cheating a widow, child or grieving parent of the late adventurer's stuff is probably in the realm of meta-gaming unless you are a party of CN / CE murder-hobos.

[MadGreenSon]

Never have I been so grateful for my players! They get money over and above what they need and what do they do?
Do they buy over powered gear to make adventures easier?

Nope!

They indulge their hedonistic sides or they make huge donations to charities, depending on the characters.

My mid level group has a weird idea of "roughing it" the camping set up they have makes my house look like a shack made of paper-mache and every stitch of clothing they own is made from only the best materials, hand tailored by masters of the craft to make them look incredible.

The food they eat on the road is only the very best preserved fruits, vegetables and rare meat supplemented by wild game and any novel or interesting local food items.

At one point they were discussing hiring a cook and butler to tend "camp" for them while they did their thing.:smallamused:

Their actual "useful" gear? Pretty normal for 8th-9th level. :smallconfused:

So...yeah I don't really need to worry much about WBL, my players have found ways of balancing themselves without even being asked to.:smallbiggrin:

[Shinken]

Number one reason: how can anyone "take up his father's sword" if the rest of the party have decided to divide up his gear between them?

Death does not suddenly make all your stuff party-property (unless you were an enemy of the party, in which case it's all legitimate spoils of war) and so cheating a widow, child or grieving parent of the late adventurer's stuff is probably in the realm of meta-gaming unless you are a party of CN / CE murder-hobos.

My point exactly, I mentioned it early in the thread but looks like no one noticed.

[Cofniben]

I haven't ran into this issue, but I could see it causing issue later on, so I've decided, and I spoke with my players on this and they all accepted that when a character dies and are unable to get resurrected or choose not to, I will take their equipment and for what they are wearing (such as amulet of protection, magic weapons they use and other items) they will get 100% of the price of those back, but anything else (potions, extra magic items that they cannot wear due to another item, things to be sold ect.) will be given 50% of their cost in gold, as if they sold it to a merchant. This way, any of the other players can take magic items off the deceased character to use with the players permission (such as healing potions).

[Slipperychicken]

"My CN Rogue volunteers to get all of that turned over to the next-of-kin, and then sells it and pockets it when the rest of the party doesn't know." Alternatively, "Our CN party says 'what will?' and pockets it."

It's a potential solution for the right party, but there're all sorts of ways that can fail to work.

The idea is to combine IC and OOC solutions: You explain to the players OOC that this is intended to be a solution to the loot-pinata problem and ask them to promise (preferably in writing) that their characters will follow it IC, and use the wills as an IC justification for that.

Then, if Swiper the Rogue wants to steal the dead guy's stuff, you say out-of-character "No, you agreed to abide by this solution out of balance concerns, and I'm holding you to that. Find a reason for Swiper here to honor the will, I don't care what it is, as long as he doesn't wind up with the dead PC's stuff".


[Also, now I kind of want to make a Kitsune Rogue named Swiper]

[hemming]

The idea is to combine IC and OOC solutions: You explain to the players OOC that this is intended to be a solution to the loot-pinata problem and ask them to promise (preferably in writing) that their characters will follow it IC, and use the wills as an IC justification for that.

Then, if Swiper the Rogue wants to steal the dead guy's stuff, you say out-of-character "No, you agreed to abide by this solution out of balance concerns, and I'm holding you to that. Find a reason for Swiper here to honor the will, I don't care what it is, as long as he doesn't wind up with the dead PC's stuff".


[Also, now I kind of want to make a Kitsune Rogue named Swiper]

I still like the idea of naming a trusted ally (assuming one can be found!) as the executor of the will

[NotScaryBats]

Yeah, there are a lot of potential solutions and problems that can arise from this. I would be fine with a low level game that had an adventurer's guild like the OP said.

There is a massive difference between level 1-6 games and 15-20 games, and it is silly to expect a solution for the former to work for the latter.

[zlefin]

I'd just tell my players not to abuse it; and if they do, I will either houserule changes to prevent it, or take harsher measures.


grrr, the system is ignoring all the extra spaces I tried to put in for emphasis

[Psyren]

Number one reason: how can anyone "take up his father's sword" if the rest of the party have decided to divide up his gear between them?

I have no problem with "take up my father's sword. But it's a bit silly to also expect to "take up my father's healing potions" "take up my father's wand of knock" and "take up my father's bag of holding." There are some items you can reasonably expect to not have the same level of sentimental value attached as a weapon or shield, and that could furthermore help the surviving members of the party continue the quest.

[lunar2]

simple houserule. if the old character is looted, the new character doesn't start with any wealth. if the old character is not looted, the new character starts with appropriate wealth. that way, no matter what, the party is on par for WBL. if the player wants his new character to have appropriate wealth, but another player insists on looting the body of the old character, kick the looter for being a jerk, since that kind of munchkin doesn't need to play, anyway.

[Slipperychicken]

grrr, the system is ignoring all the extra spaces I tried to put in for emphasis

The "increase indent" button might help. It's right next to the "insert link" button and under the "colors" button.

[hemming]

I have no problem with "take up my father's sword. But it's a bit silly to also expect to "take up my father's healing potions" "take up my father's wand of knock" and "take up my father's bag of holding." There are some items you can reasonably expect to not have the same level of sentimental value attached as a weapon or shield, and that could furthermore help the surviving members of the party continue the quest.

These objects represent substantial wealth! Would I rather my orphans, widow, mother or church have access to this wealth or another player? The answer may sometimes be the latter (depending on the character)...

Evil characters may even take religious donations at the time of death more seriously (one last buy-off for my place in the after life)

there is nothing wrong with the approach you are suggesting (treat high value/sentimental items differently than consumables) - but NPCs or PCs may choose not too ignore items of value that don't also have sentimental value as well (if they are given a say in it). I'm growing steadily more attached to the idea of allowing the player to decide and allow the surviving players to determine whether they will honor that decision...

[Amphetryon]

Number one reason: how can anyone "take up his father's sword" if the rest of the party have decided to divide up his gear between them?

Death does not suddenly make all your stuff party-property (unless you were an enemy of the party, in which case it's all legitimate spoils of war) and so cheating a widow, child or grieving parent of the late adventurer's stuff is probably in the realm of meta-gaming unless you are a party of CN / CE murder-hobos.

Depending on where your party is at time of death, this could involve schlepping the deceased's belongings a considerable distance in order to avoid 'cheating a widow, child, or grieving parent of the late adventurer's stuff.' It seems to me that there may be room for discussion over whether willfully ignoring all of this useful equipment for that entire journey is itself a form of metagaming.

Granted, once the party has easy access to magical transportation, this is less of an issue, but for the hypothetical group of the initial post, that seems a ways off.

[Oliver Veyrac]

Usually I would make each character have a will "may my closest possessions be buried with me" and should something happen, they get haunted by the ghost of said character until they return it back to the resting place. In addition, the ghost would demand a consecrate spell to be placed, or a hallow spell if the PC's continuously do so.

We also state if the character wants to be raised from the dead, or not. And they have a local church that is nearby so they can pay for a raise dead (or start to pay by the time they die.) If they die untimely, they get raised from the grave, but in debt sometimes if they are high enough level.

[Segev]

Like I said, the best solution is a quiet OOC one: IF the party loots the dead PC, cut down the loot rewards for a while until WBL stabilizes where it's supposed to be.

IF you actually have a problem with characters dying so often that their stuff is flooding everybody else, you may have deeper problems than simply the PCs looting their own party members to break the WBL curve.

[georgie_leech]

Like I said, the best solution is a quiet OOC one: IF the party loots the dead PC, cut down the loot rewards for a while until WBL stabilizes where it's supposed to be.

IF you actually have a problem with characters dying so often that their stuff is flooding everybody else, you may have deeper problems than simply the PCs looting their own party members to break the WBL curve.

In short, do what you do whenever the PC's end up with extra resources.

[Red Fel]

Allow me to offer two humble solutions to the Loot Pinata problem. Let us assume, for the sake of these hypotheticals, that the party is in their mid-teen levels, and that thus an individual's gear represents substantial value.

Scenario 1: DM-side Solution.

"Hrulfgar the Mighty has fallen. Having slain the last of the Orcs who took his life, you may gather around his body and say a few words."

The DM waits a few minutes for the players to say things in character. Once they're finished, or if somebody attempts to loot the body...

"Suddenly, a chilling roar fills the air. A dark shadow passes over the trees and ground. Roll initiative."

The party is attacked by a passing Blue Dragon, who has no intention of fighting, but decides to grab the unclaimed (because they belong to a corpse) baubles. It grabs the corpse and flees after one round.

The party is now deprived of its loot pinata. In the alternative, the party has an adventure hook - track down the dragon and recover the body, in which case they'll probably have earned the attendant loot.

Problem solved.

Scenario 2: Player-side solution.

"Hrulfgar the Mighty has fallen. Having slain the last of the Orcs who took his life, you may gather around his body and say a few words."

The DM waits a few minutes for the players to say things in character. Once they're finished, or if somebody attempts to loot the body...

"No! Hrulfgar, my brother!"

Hrulfgar's player introduces his new character, Hrothgar, Hrulfgar's brother. Yes, this is attack of the clones - Hrothgar lays claim to Hrulfgar's belongings, and joins the party to honor Hrulfgar's name.

The player gets to bring in his new character, gets comfortably equipped without the need for magic-mart, and the party is deprived of its loot pinata.

Problem solved.

Yes. #2 is a joke. Honestly, people.

The bottom line, as has been said before, is that the issue of the loot pinata is a case of an OOC construction (WBL) being used to control IC status (equipment) through an IC contrivance (depriving the players of a loot pinata). It's layers upon layers of confusion. All you really need to unravel the whole mess is a simple conversation with your players, out of character, and an understanding that you can't have them looting allies' corpses. Either they rationalize keeping their WBL down via OOC agreement, or you change the flow of loot until it balances.

When that fails, ramp up CR until they cry.

[Amphetryon]

Allow me to offer two humble solutions to the Loot Pinata problem. Let us assume, for the sake of these hypotheticals, that the party is in their mid-teen levels, and that thus an individual's gear represents substantial value.

Scenario 1: DM-side Solution.

"Hrulfgar the Mighty has fallen. Having slain the last of the Orcs who took his life, you may gather around his body and say a few words."

The DM waits a few minutes for the players to say things in character. Once they're finished, or if somebody attempts to loot the body...

"Suddenly, a chilling roar fills the air. A dark shadow passes over the trees and ground. Roll initiative."

The party is attacked by a passing Blue Dragon, who has no intention of fighting, but decides to grab the unclaimed (because they belong to a corpse) baubles. It grabs the corpse and flees after one round.

The party is now deprived of its loot pinata. In the alternative, the party has an adventure hook - track down the dragon and recover the body, in which case they'll probably have earned the attendant loot.

Problem solved.

Scenario 2: Player-side solution.

"Hrulfgar the Mighty has fallen. Having slain the last of the Orcs who took his life, you may gather around his body and say a few words."

The DM waits a few minutes for the players to say things in character. Once they're finished, or if somebody attempts to loot the body...

"No! Hrulfgar, my brother!"

Hrulfgar's player introduces his new character, Hrothgar, Hrulfgar's brother. Yes, this is attack of the clones - Hrothgar lays claim to Hrulfgar's belongings, and joins the party to honor Hrulfgar's name.

The player gets to bring in his new character, gets comfortably equipped without the need for magic-mart, and the party is deprived of its loot pinata.

Problem solved.

Yes. #2 is a joke. Honestly, people.

The bottom line, as has been said before, is that the issue of the loot pinata is a case of an OOC construction (WBL) being used to control IC status (equipment) through an IC contrivance (depriving the players of a loot pinata). It's layers upon layers of confusion. All you really need to unravel the whole mess is a simple conversation with your players, out of character, and an understanding that you can't have them looting allies' corpses. Either they rationalize keeping their WBL down via OOC agreement, or you change the flow of loot until it balances.

When that fails, ramp up CR until they cry.
Honest question, here: You didn't intend option #1 to be a joke? Because I could definitely see a strain on verisimilitude if the dragon were to swoop in, grab the corpse, and flee, paying no attention to the party of adventurers that are either trying to defend their fallen comrade or quaking in terror, nearly as defenseless as the corpse itself.

[Shining Wrath]

Honest question, here: You didn't intend option #1 to be a joke? Because I could definitely see a strain on verisimilitude if the dragon were to swoop in, grab the corpse, and flee, paying no attention to the party of adventurers that are either trying to defend their fallen comrade or quaking in terror, nearly as defenseless as the corpse itself.

As an intelligent creature, a blue dragon can have places to go and entities to see, but be willing to take 30 seconds to grab some loot. Dragons are famously loot-oriented, after all.

So, a bit of a strain on the old verisimilitude, but I've seen worse.

You could have a raiding party of orcs where some of them engage the party while the rest carry off all the bodies - orc and human alike. Gotta keep the pantry stocked.

[Psyren]

These objects represent substantial wealth! Would I rather my orphans, widow, mother or church have access to this wealth or another player? The answer may sometimes be the latter (depending on the character)...

Honestly, I would say the folks who risked their lives to help you acquire said wealth take priority. In addition, for those items to become "wealth," your surviving family would have to sell them, which means you don't have a problem with them being sold after all.

And if they don't sell them, then what use will they have? Unless your spouse is also an adventurer, she probably won't need extradimensional storage on her trips to market, even in a bumper crop year.




there is nothing wrong with the approach you are suggesting (treat high value/sentimental items differently than consumables) - but NPCs or PCs may choose not too ignore items of value that don't also have sentimental value as well (if they are given a say in it). I'm growing steadily more attached to the idea of allowing the player to decide and allow the surviving players to determine whether they will honor that decision...

This could indeed be a great roleplay opportunity. Just be careful that it doesn't become an ultimatum moment, say if the Paladin wants to ship the fighter's belt home and the rogue wants to pawn it.

[Z3ro]

As an intelligent creature, a blue dragon can have places to go and entities to see, but be willing to take 30 seconds to grab some loot. Dragons are famously loot-oriented, after all.

So, a bit of a strain on the old verisimilitude, but I've seen worse.

You could have a raiding party of orcs where some of them engage the party while the rest carry off all the bodies - orc and human alike. Gotta keep the pantry stocked.

Interestingly, one of my groups had our most memorable session ever after a similar situation. One of my characters dies during a fight, and an enemy cleric reanimates his corpse as a zombie. The group retreats (having lost two members) and return later to track the zombie (and my loot) down. We end up laying siege to a goblin city. A good time was had by all.

[jedipotter]

So, what solutions have you found?

Ignore WBL. :smallamused:

In general the characters should not get ''that much'' loot. And even if you use vague encumbrance they can't carry too much.


But if they do, you can just take it away. Whatever loot they have, steal or destroy it. Don't give all the loot ''plot armor''.

[Endarire]

What are the team members trying to do? Are your PCs killing themselves to get more loot? How much does this wealth increase affect the current game/group and the foreseeable future?

[JusticeZero]

New replacement characters don't start out at WBL. They start out with mundane stuff, maybe with one exception, then have to kit up in character using group funds and gear.

[lunar2]

Ignore WBL. :smallamused:

In general the characters should not get ''that much'' loot. And even if you use vague encumbrance they can't carry too much.


But if they do, you can just take it away. Whatever loot they have, steal or destroy it. Don't give all the loot ''plot armor''.

yes, yes. we all know you hate competent characters who are actually good at their jobs, and your entire goal as a DM is to have helpless PCs follow the rails so you can tell them this awesome story you wrote.

seriously, though. if you come even close to proper loot, they're going to have hundreds of pounds of coins alone. and they will have either a cart or a bag of holding to carry it in. and how are you taking their loot when they put guards up? unless your players are stupid enough not to guard their treasure. or are you the type that throws in the massively overleveled rogue who can't be spotted if he rolls a one and they roll a twenty?


New replacement characters don't start out at WBL. They start out with mundane stuff, maybe with one exception, then have to kit up in character using group funds and gear.

that's fine at 1st-3rd level. beyond that, you need level appropriate gear to function, unless you are specifically built to bypass that. so with your solution, you just end up with, every time a character dies, they get replaced with a VOP druid. congratulations, you just broke your own game. or, if your players are nice enough not to make you cry, you end up with the new character dieing at the next encounter because they don't have the defenses necessary to survive. which means your players are going to be pissed at you for screwing them over repeatedly.

[rmnimoc]

The real solution is to have a BBEG with enough of a desire for a real challenge to hunt down the corpses of the party, reanimate them, and give control of them to the party.

It tends to get very amusing very quickly.