Dragonborn Ruthless Rufian

[Doomreaver]

So I'm joining a D&D group, my first one, and it looks like they need a Rogue. Since I enjoy breaking the mold, I have my heart set on a Dragonborn Ruthless Ruffian, and would like some help/advice building him. I am fully aware I would probably get better results as a halfing or something, but like the flavor of a 6 foot cudgel wielding lizard that somehow manages to sneak up behind you and kill you.

First the basics: The DM uses the roll four and drop the lowest to determine ability scores. I've rolled 14, 11, 11, 11, 10, 9. I'm a little disappointed, but apparently that's about average for this campaign so that's what I have to work with. It's a 6 man party counting me, it includes 3 casters, a fighter, and a monk, and I'll be joining in at level 3. The DM has offered to let me have a magic item or items when I join, and I'm thinking a +1 Greatclub would fit nicely.

I'm unsure if I should put the 14 in Dex or Str. Dex is great for hitting things, but STR allows me a unique feat and pumps my damage up on basic attacks and some special attacks. The 10 and the 9 will go in int/wis. For skills I'm currently leaning towards Athletics, Acrobatics, Dungeoneering, and Intimidate. I was torn between Dungeoneering and perception, but someone else already has that trained.

Since I'll be a third melee character in the group, I like the class/race unique feat Brutal Teamwork (+2 damage when next to an ally), but it requires 15 STR, which I can only get if I put my 14 into STR. Would Ruthless Injury be a good 2nd pick up? For powers I will need Disheartening Strike obviously, and if I go for Brutal Teamwork then Adaptable Flanker seems like a good choice for my utility power, but past that I have no idea what to pick.

Flavorwise, I imagine my character as being less of a "Rob everyone in sight" kind of Rogue and more of a "Dungeon crawling expert" who excels at finding and disarming traps, scouting ahead, and intimidating enemies.

[Elkreeal]

I've rolled 14, 11, 11, 11, 10, 9.
Oh, what am I reading, is there no other way to have your DM change his mind? This is gonna guarantee TPK all around even with enemies of your level. You're better off getting 14 on your dex and only concern yourself with feats when you have the stats for it.

[Doomreaver]

Wait a second... *flips through handbook again* 11's are +0 aren't they? I thought where +1. That means my character, rather then being slightly weak, is actually rather pathetic. Yeah, I'm going to go yell at my DM some. BRB.

[Gavran]

Elkreeal has the right of it. Please tell your DM that the internet wants him to swap everyone over to point buy right away.

The game is balanced around your scaling ability to hit and not be hit, and a high primary stat (Dex in your case) is 100% crucial to that.

[Inevitability]

You have chosen to play a MAD class, with a race that doesn't boost your most important score and a terrible stat array.

Yeah... This will be difficult. I can't really give any advice on this. Rolling for stats works great if the system expects a 14 or so in your highest ability score, not if an 18 (or even 20) is expected.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm unsure if I should put the 14 in Dex or Str. Dex is great for hitting things, but STR allows me a unique feat and pumps my damage up on basic attacks and some special attacks.
Always put your highest score in your primary class ability, which in this case is dexterity.

Note also that Brutal Scoundrel is much better than Ruthless Ruffian: both allow you to add your strength bonus to sneak attack, but the former lets you use any rogue power and the latter restrict you to the (mediocre at best) rattling powers.

A feat that gives +1 to all damage is better than a feat that gives +2 when next to an ally, and a feat that gives +1 to hit is better than that. Your average damage goes way up if you hit more often.

[Rakaydos]

Pretty sure the dice roll rules allow a reroll if your total modifiers dont add up to at least +3.

[Inevitability]

Also, you seem to be thinking a Ruthless Ruffian can sneak attack with a greatclub. This is not true. They can sneak attack with the weapon explicitly called a club, and with the weapon explicitly called a mace. Not with greatclubs or heavy maces or morningstars or craghammers.

[Waddacku]

Unless your DM is running such a heavily modified game that normal advice is basically irrelevant, with stats like that you'll be nearly incapable of doing anything besides dying horribly.

Of course, if the DM just hates large ability score numbers and has adjusted for that in monsters stats and skill check DCs, things might work out.

The only ability with a positive modifier there is Dex (this IS where you put the 14), so the Str riders of Ruthless Ruffian and Brutal Scoundrel, as well as the Cha rider of Artful Dodger, are nearly completely worthless to you (Dragonborn ability increases giving you a +1 somewhere). That leaves Cunning Sneak or Ruthless Ruffian (if you're set on mace or club) for Rogue Tactics that actually do anything. You'd be better off using daggers for maximum accuracy, though.

[Doomreaver]

I'm pretty sure the DM isn't using heavily modified anything, he's just never done this before (none of us have) and didn't read the rules thoroughly enough. He did let me reroll one of my rolls.... a 7 that became one of the 11's. Currently I'm waiting for a response to the E-mail asking for his E-mail. He has mine, but not the other way around yet XD.

I'll come back with new numbers ASAP.

[Kurald Galain]

If you do get stuck with a 14, I'd recommend switching to a +DEX race, using a dagger, and spending your first feat on Expertise. That should compensate for the likelihood that your teammates do have an 18 primary.

[Inevitability]

Or play a class that isn't dependant on hitting, like a magic-missile spamming wizard, or a lazy warlord.

[Kurald Galain]

a magic-missile spamming wizard
That's a really bad build though, you'd be better off playing a 14-dex rogue.

Seriously. Magic missile does negligible damage to anything that's not a minion, and so your only contribution would be killing one minion per round (if there are any). Your party would be better off with almost anything else.

Lazylord is a good pick though.

[Inevitability]

Magic missile can be optimized to the level that you're rivalling the sorcerer in terms of AoE damage. Malec-Keth emissary to give it a damage roll, gaining access to manyshot and some other stuff will make it viable.

[Kurald Galain]

Magic missile can be optimized to the level that you're rivalling the sorcerer in terms of AoE damage.
Let's see. Sorcerers start at level 3 with Flame Spiral for 1d10+2d6+22 damage on three targets (average of 72 points if we assume 70% hit rate) and at that level a Magic Missile does... seven points! On one target. Whoa. Yes, that assumes cheese on the sorcerer, but you're also assuming cheese on the wizard, so that's fair game.


Malec-Keth emissary to give it a damage roll,
That is a highly dubious ruling, general consensus is that it doesn't work that way.. Also, it starts working at level 16 whereas the OP is talking about level 3. So yeah, that's not going to happen.


gaining access to manyshot and some other stuff will make it viable.
Manyshot doesn't exist in 4E. Whoops :smallbiggrin:

But hey, if you want to take the best controller in the book and play it as a bottom-tier striker instead, be my guest. Although it would be more effective to take the charge package on a wizard and rely on charges and melee basic attacks.

[Dimers]

Flavorwise, I imagine my character as being less of a "Rob everyone in sight" kind of Rogue and more of a "Dungeon crawling expert" who excels at finding and disarming traps, scouting ahead, and intimidating enemies.

This will be as unworkable as combat is, given those stats -- you want Dex for disarming traps, Wis for finding traps and enemies, and Cha for any kind of people-skills.

Wow. I just added it up -- you'd have spent 9 points buying those stats, when the standard is 22. That really hurts.

If you're stuck with the rolled stats and you want to stay a dragonborn, how about a revenant dragonborn? That'll let you boost your Dex ...

[squiggit]

Yeah, for reference OP: 16 to your primary stat is considered worryingly low and really the bare minimum anyone can afford (and even then not really). 16+2, 18 or 18+2 is standard for 4e.

Though for that matter, 4e is really not a game where rolling for stats is a good idea. I mean it's pretty terrible in every game, but 4e specially given how important proper stat distribution tends to be.

Regarding your class: Rogues are awesome... Ruthless Ruffians not so much: Maces and Clubs are fairly weak weapons and by RAW those are the only two you can use. If your DM is nice he might extend it to all mace-category weapons, at which point you hope he allows dark sun material so you can grab a singing stick

If he's really really nice he might allow you to pull it off with maces and hammers.

Even then, the ruthless ruffian class features aren't amazing, but at least they'd be workable.

If you're stuck with the rolled stats and you want to stay a dragonborn, how about a revenant dragonborn? That'll let you boost your Dex ...

Kapak dragonborn get a +dex boost too.

[VeliciaL]

If your DM wants to stick with rolled stats, I'd point out that page 18 of the Player's Handbook allows for a re-roll if your ability modifier total is lower than +4.

If they're new and worried about shenanigans though, I'd recommend working with stat arrays instead. Rolling stats can lead to... well, situations like this. :smallannoyed:

[Doomreaver]

Update! I finally got ahold of my DM, and he agreed to let me use the standard spread (16,14,13,12,11,10) for my stats, and houseruled that I could use Great Clubs with the Ruthless Ruffian special. For all those suggesting/informing me that Brutal Scoundrel is much stronger and I'll probably enjoy it more, thanks for the advice, but I have my heart set on an intimidating skull-cracker.

So, I think I should assign my stats as follows: 16 Dex, 14 STR, 13 CON, 12 CHA, 11 WIS, 10 INT. Frost breath scaling off DEX, cause poison and acid are to predictable for a Rogue :P.

For skills, I'll need Disheartening Strike, and am considering Riposte Strike, Termination Threat, and Blinding Assault for my level one powers. For level two, I think Tumble will be great for maneuvering, and at three Enforced Threat will let me get combat advantage, but Adaptable Flanker synergizes with the Brutal Teamwork feat.

For Feats, I was thinking Brutal Teamwork and maybe Weapon Focus or Ruthless Efficiency, but am rather unsure on this. Are feats that require a light blade also covered by the RR effect, or just class powers? If so that opens up a lot of other good options.

Finally, what does MAD and RAW stand for? I've seen both in this thread, and though I have a guess at the answer, would like to know for sure.

[GPuzzle]

MAD: Multiple Attributes Dependencies.

RAW: Rules As Written.

Also, level 3, Low Slash. Low Slash. Low Slash. Best power. It's a minor. It's that awesome.

Why? It gives another attack at your turn, or if you have Combat Advantage, an extra +2d6 damage. That's why so many Rangers pick things like Off-Hand Strike and Ruffling Sting. Another attack on your turn is just that good.

[Nod_Hero]

If you're going to use Great Club (2H +2@2d4) you're possibly better off using a Mace two handed (1H Versatile +2@1d8+1). Same minimum damage, 1 better maximum damage, and that let's you free a hand and still wield a weapon if you ever need to.

If you're decided on Ruffian and looking for something different to do, see if you can talk your DM into allowing Quarterstaff (2H +2@1d8) into the houseruled mix. Then you can take the Sneaky Staff and Staff Expertise feats to get reach and some other staff feats to open up some possibilities. (Staff Fighting would open up the Two-Weapon feats, for example)

[Doomreaver]

Interesting thoughts. I think I'll stick with the Greatclub, as it has more reliable damage (2d4 has less chance of rolls on either extreme), and a Rogue bludgeoning people to death with a staff, while very interesting mechanically, feels so weird thematically (maybe a duel class Wizard char I'll create sometime heh).

Also, the DM offered me a magic item and picked out a "Greatclub of Great Opportunity +1" which looks like tons of fun. "Staff/Mace of Great Opportunity" just doesn't have the same ring to it...

[Nod_Hero]

I can't recall the name but there's a low level mace weapon from Dark Sun that does enhancex2 extra damage when you roll max on any damage die. So if you're using a 2d4 Greatclub, that's a 25% chance on any roll of getting a little extra punch in.

[Waddacku]

43.75% chance of the extra damage, actually, since it's two dice.

[Nod_Hero]

Even better.