Selling my spell slots in a metropolis

[Trilby]

Playground! As always, I require your help. We're going into a bit of downtime for my RL campaign soon, some party members want to have some gear crafted. So I thought I'd spend my time selling my spell slots--someone's got to sell theirs, as they're available according to the PHB.

The DM was fine with it, so that's cool.

So, here's my question: hypothetically, percentage-wise, how many slots could I sell each day reliably (in a high fantasy metropolis)? What would you say is fair? I have roughly a month to devote to this.
I'm not looking to explicitly break WBL or whatever, but I joined the campaign late, and everyone agreed that it'd be a nice way for me to keep up with the rest of the party.

I'm a elven generalist wizard, with a lot of spell access. The Arcane Order doesn't mind (RP'd that with the DM), and they're the authority on magic in this city (homebrew world borrowing heavily from the default setting). I plan on not offering things with massive XP costs.

Any thoughts?

[Flickerdart]

It really depends on the spells that you know and what's happening in the city. A construction site might be willing to buy as many castings of wall of iron from you as you're willing to sell, but you probably won't find much demand for a spellbook full of black tentacles and solid fog.

[Kazudo]

Typically when I'm DMing, if my wizards or other casters want to make money from their spell slots, I just give them the same cash as they would give an NPC for casting a spell.

[Flickerdart]

Typically when I'm DMing, if my wizards or other casters want to make money from their spell slots, I just give them the same cash as they would give an NPC for casting a spell.
Well, that's obvious. OP is asking about the demand for such a service, though - how many people per day will want spells, and what spells do they want?

[Gavinfoxx]

What utility spells can you cast?

[Kazudo]

Well, that's obvious. OP is asking about the demand for such a service, though - how many people per day will want spells, and what spells do they want?

Oh. Well, in a metropolis of high enough population it kind of doesn't matter, especially for a generalist wizard with a fairly diverse spellbook. I typically just fast-forward for X amount of time and say "here's your GP total, you gained..." since, I mean really, in most towns there's almost always someone who would like a spell cast. Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone, (Wall of Force, even). After hearing so many justifications for why certain spells are necessary, as long as the obvious no-nos are avoided (most necromancy spells, for example, and even then one can find a reason to do some of them), then it's typically not a problem. You could always just make scrolls and sell them to magic shops, though that might get the "sell-for-half (or quarter)" rule attached to it.

[Trilby]

I'm a MotAO, so any PHB utility up to 6th, and some others. I like utility spells, so there's lots of them. I could buff, do walls, you name it.

My question was more along the lines of what would be reasonable, I'd say maybe 80% spells sold, something like that?

@Kaz, yeah, that's what we'll do, I just want to know what would be a reasonable amount of slots/'spells prepared' to sell.

[Mnemnosyne]

A wizard that's well-known for providing such services is probably sufficiently in demand to have their spell slots booked for days in advance, really.

Your only concern here would be you're not well-established in the city and do not have a reputation, therefore you would need to advertise and drum up business in the first place. Since you're only going to be here a limited amount of time, by the time the business really gets rolling, it'd be time to leave. The number of slots you could sell during the time you're there would be heavily dependent on your advertising ability.

Unless of course the arcane order you're part of offers such services in the first place. In that case they probably have spell slots booked days in advance, and you can sell all your spell slots every day through them, but they will take a sizable cut of your sales since they're the ones hooking you up with customers.

[Kazudo]

I'm a MotAO, so any PHB utility up to 6th, and some others. I like utility spells, so there's lots of them. I could buff, do walls, you name it.

My question was more along the lines of what would be reasonable, I'd say maybe 80% spells sold, something like that?

@Kaz, yeah, that's what we'll do, I just want to know what would be a reasonable amount of slots/'spells prepared' to sell.

Oh. In that case, if you're not going to be doing any adventuring that day and you don't expect that your DM will throw any surprise encounters at you during that period of time, I wouldn't see a particular reason not to sell all of them. Unless you have some repetitive spellcasting you need to do (alter self, polymorph, what have you) for any mundane reason, then eat all the money you need!

[Flickerdart]

My question was more along the lines of what would be reasonable, I'd say maybe 80% spells sold, something like that?
Probably not.

Think about it: you are essentially like a doctor setting up a new clinic. You need people to come to you and say "hello, I would like to make an appointment for tomorrow please" and then tomorrow you go and do the thing. But the sort of people who buy spells usually already have a supplier; on a rare occasion that the caster they frequent doesn't have what they want, he will probably refer them to someone who does. Your clientèle, at least at the beginning, will consist entirely of wealthy bored people wandering the streets in search of something to do, and there aren't many of those.

Even when you get past this, there is a time cost associated with every spell beyond the standard action needed to cast it. You need to meet with a potential customer, discuss the service they want, then go to the place that they want it to be cast in, cast it, get paid, go back to the shop...you're probably looking at around 30 minutes to 1 hour of total work per a single spell cast, and that's assuming that 10-20 minutes by carriage gets you to where the spell needs to be cast! There is a reason that medieval and Renaissance societies weren't in very much of a hurry, and that's because hurrying was impossible. Oh, and don't even think about doing this early in the morning or late in the evening, as gentle menne of leisure have better things to do than get up before noon or hang around peasants while they should be banqueting!

So you're probably looking at something like 3d4 spell slots per day.

[Kazudo]

Oh. THAT's the question. I must be the Stumbling Blind Drunk in the Playground again.

Yeah, as far as demand goes I'd probably have a gather information check (or several) wedged in there somewhere or contact with a guild or five to get started. Definitely. I'd actually, as a DM personally, rule that if it's an extended period of time with a significantly large city, it'll take a few days to even get clients. Then I'd wager around 2d4 spell slots per day for 10-25% of the time spent, then if all goes well you would use full spell slots 90% of the time until you close your shop. If business goes poorly, then I'd wager you'd be on 2d4 for 50-75% of the time until you went up to full (at latest) at 85%.

If that makes sense.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd also note that, unless the DM is just handing you the cash, you might want to vet customers if your character has any moral qualms or preferences. Most of the people that can afford magic are probably adventurers themselves, and some of them are probably scoundrels. If I were DM, I'd totally have npcs coming in in disguise to try and get a spellcaster to help them accomplish x or y stuff that they can't do on their own (characters do this on a regular basis, judging from suggestions on this forum).

So, like, if someone comes in asking for, let's say, explosive runes on a sheet of paper. And then the next day someone else asks for the same. And again. Well, at some point this is suspicious.

And that is just the obvious example. My general point is, unless the wizard just doesn't care, you would do well to be careful in deciding exactly which spells to sell.

[claypigeons]

I did this as a player once. My DM had me add up my total spell daily spell levels and roll a percentile. I "sold" 50% of my levels plus the percentile (up to total spells per day) and recieved gold accordingly.

[Slipperychicken]

Any thoughts?

Leave some spell slots open to be filled during the day (except for the "usual" spells, like if there's a regular who comes in for a Prestidigitation and Teleport every day). That way, when/if someone asks for an obscure spell, you can just ask them to wait 15-20 minutes while you prep it, instead of making them wait until tomorrow. You could charge a little extra for "rush jobs".

To penetrate the market, offer your spells at a small discount. Even 1-5% should be enough to mooch business off the established players. For higher level spells, that's hundreds of gold the customer is saving.

I imagine that customers would generally only buy spells at minimum CL. Nobody wants to pay extra for CL 13 Prestidigitation. So include that in your calculations.

[Brookshw]

I'd probably do a diminishing return based on spell level under the assumption not as many people would have the cash for higher level spells. 45% 1st, 40% 2nd, 35% 3rd etc (actually this is already a book keeping headache so I'd probably just give you a number, but if you wanted to use this....) Maybe increase the percent for diplomacy/gather info or some marketing gimick.

[Flickerdart]

To penetrate the market, offer your spells at a small discount. Even 1-5% should be enough to mooch business off the established players. For higher level spells, that's hundreds of gold the customer is saving.
One would assume that established prices are established for a reason. If anything, the big players are the ones that can afford to undercut (and float by on volume). If they don't, it may be because they are reluctant to undervalue the worth of their profession, and will not respond kindly to anyone doing so...

[Slipperychicken]

One would assume that established prices are established for a reason. If anything, the big players are the ones that can afford to undercut (and float by on volume). If they don't, it may be because they are reluctant to undervalue the worth of their profession, and will not respond kindly to anyone doing so...

I'm just saying what works in the real world. There are a few ways to achieve market penetration, and that's one of them. It should help somewhat unless you're dealing with a genuine price-fixing scheme. Granted, guilds generally do price-fixing, and that might get you fined, your guild membership revoked (or maybe even ban you from practicing in that city entirely) if you violate the pricing guidelines.

Also, the established players might not be willing to engage in a price-war over the customers which leave them, and may find it more profitable to let the new guy have a piece (and he's only going to be here for a month, so it's not exactly a threat to their livelihood).

Price might not even be an object to their market share. Maybe the existing hedge-wizards are marketing off relationships, prestige, reliability, and trust rather than price, as is often the case for big-ticket items. Wealthy people generally are willing to pay more for a product/service they can trust, especially if there's discretion involved (i.e. "Hey, I, uh, need another casting of Edvard's Black Tentacles. In the Rope Trick behind the shed, like usual").

[Yukitsu]

I've always run it that anything you try to sell at full price requires profession(sales) checks to determine how often you get a sale. When you've "earned" enough from profession checks to make that value in profit (not just the cost of the item sold), you make that sale, with far more frequent sales made with cheap stuff. I also run it so you can get long term contracts or big job contracts with diplomacy and role playing.

[NichG]

If you wanted a fairly involved model, I'd do something like the following:

You can sell N spell levels per day, where N starts at 1 and increases weekly until you hit your full set of available slots or 1% of the city's gold piece limit of income per day. The weekly increase is described by a die size, such as d4 or d6, set by a few factors. It starts at d1 and increases d1->d2->d4->d6->d8->d10->d12->2d6->2d8->3d6->3d8->...

If the die size becomes negative, you lose business that week: -d1 -> -d2 -> ...

- Population < 100: -1 die size
- Population < 1000: -1 die size (stacks)
- Population > 10000: +1 die size
- Population > 100000: +1 die size (stacks)
- Extended (e.g. no one-shot buffs) Profession check (weekly): +1 die size at DC 20, 30, 40, .... Also +1% gp income cap per.
- Good reputation/credentials/fame: +1 die size for each factor up to +3 die size
- Bad reputation/shoddy work/infamy: Reverse of above, unless you agree to do illegal contract work at which point this modifier and the above are both zeroed.
- Advertisement campaign: 1000gp per week cost, +1 die size
- High local growth rate/demand modifiers: +1 die size (e.g. they're putting up a castle and you have Wall of Stone). Also +5% gp income cap.
- Local superstition/you don't belong to the local Guild/you have poor spell selection compared to competitors: -2 die sizes.
- Selling at a 20% discount: +1 die size
- Selling at a 20% markup: -4 die sizes and lose high population benefits (more competition)

Every week you don't work, your business (number of slots sold per day) drops by 10%.

This is probably too involved of course... So a quick rule of thumb would be '20% the first month, 50% the second month, 80% the third month, then 100%'.

[Karoht]

Half your slots of each spell level, though you can burn more slots of lower level spells. That is the maximum number of slots one should expend on such an endevour. And never ever go out without your standard buff wall rotation active.

What's that? A Wizard is open for business? Awesome.
Watch them for a few days doing business in public. Figure out roughly how many spell slots they have and what their capabilities are.
After a few days, get Silence cast onto a rock. While this wizard is conducting legitimate business and otherwise sufficiently distracted. Slight of Hand to steal the spellbook. Slight of Hand to slip the rock into the wizard's posession. Meanwhile another thug grapples the Wizard. Commence the Sneak Attacks while the Wizard can't cast much of anything and has extreme difficulty casting anything to escape.

Now I'm not saying that the Wizard can't get out of this. Far from it. But IF the Wizard over extends resources, they can find themselves in a very vulnerable situation.

[Flickerdart]

I'd probably do a diminishing return based on spell level under the assumption not as many people would have the cash for higher level spells. 45% 1st, 40% 2nd, 35% 3rd etc (actually this is already a book keeping headache so I'd probably just give you a number, but if you wanted to use this....) Maybe increase the percent for diplomacy/gather info or some marketing gimick.
I disagree. While there is certainly more demand for low-level spells due to the amount of people who can buy them, there is also more supply due to the vast amounts of existing low-level characters. There are more low-level slots being moved, but there is less of a guarantee that they are being moved by you. Meanwhile, the high-level spells are in lower demand, but fewer people are able to provide them, so it is more likely that any particular high-level spell will be bought from you.

[Brookshw]

I disagree. While there is certainly more demand for low-level spells due to the amount of people who can buy them, there is also more supply due to the vast amounts of existing low-level characters. There are more low-level slots being moved, but there is less of a guarantee that they are being moved by you. Meanwhile, the high-level spells are in lower demand, but fewer people are able to provide them, so it is more likely that any particular high-level spell will be bought from you.

Could be, I haven't crunched the numbers to compare the pool of potential consumers to suppliers. A smaller pool though does strike me as a reduced chance on a given day someone is buying, but we don't have any raw one way or another for that as far as I know.

[Ravens_cry]

I see this being a good excuse for a role play encounter and even some potential hooks for greater ideas. Removing a mark of judgment might get you in trouble with the local authorities, and there could be a reason why someone is so desperate for a remove disease and why they aren't going to their local priest.

[Deophaun]

So you're probably looking at something like 3d4 spell slots per day.
See, I look at everything you say, and get "1d4-2 low-level slots a day. Maybe a mid-level slot a week."

Even a staple like wall of stone is not a sure thing to be in demand even with construction going on. Why? Because it's still more expensive than just building the wall by mundane means, significantly so if you need to add any structural elements to it. Unless time is a factor (e.g. an earthquake hit, breaching the North wall, and there's an army two days out), there's no reason to pay the premium. And since wall of stone's creations look crude, you're limiting yourself not only to people with a great deal of gold, but to a subset of those who also care only about function. Such practical people are unlikely to want buildings constructed on a whim, and will look to get the most for their money.

Meanwhile, though, you have spells like fabricate or, to a lesser extent, unseen crafter, which have the benefits of offering more money per spell slot while not requiring the DM to worry about demand for greater teleport.

[Phelix-Mu]

I see this being a good excuse for a role play encounter and even some potential hooks for greater ideas. Removing a mark of judgment might get you in trouble with the local authorities, and there could be a reason why someone is so desperate for a remove disease and why they aren't going to their local priest.

Or...

- Shrink item on a torch or fire: the arsonist called and wants more toys.

- Rapid potion (enlarge person): time to go beat up that guy that keeps bullying me.

- Invisibility (on item): probably just shouldn't cast invisibility on customers. At least not without also having see invisible up.:smallsmile:

- Divinations: pretty much ready made plot hooks, right here. Have a distress/scheming/blind/pregnant/rich person come in and ask a normal/suspicious question, and have the spell give back a strange/enigmatic/suspicious response.

- Minor/Major creation: again, I'm not sure there is a good reason to give someone access to temporarily real stuff.

- Other Conjuration(creation) spells: beware unexpected economical consequences, especially if the DM favors having faux-medieval elements still around in the world (like a heavy presence of mundane masons in the same city as a heavy presence of wall of stone-capable casters).

[Cruiser1]

My question was more along the lines of what would be reasonable, I'd say maybe 80% spells sold, something like that?
80% is way too high, at least according to the only RAW source I'm aware of that touches upon the subject:

A character rarely sells her full complement of spells on any given day, but if she has spells with solid economic value - alarm, arcane lock, comprehend languages, continual flame, explosive runes, feather fall, identify, locate creature, mage armor, nondetection, obscure object, repair damage, seal of the magi, secret page, and tongues, among others - she can usually sell a few spells each day, either to private citizens or in the service of the city.
The above assumes you're in a Metropolis (Sharn in Eberron), are a member of the Wizard's Circle (which you have to pay 1000 gp to join, and then 250 gp per caster level each year), are using the organization as a front to sell your services, and you give the organization 10% of your earnings. Even then you can only "usually sell a few spells each day".

[TheOOB]

In reality you likely wouldn't be able to sell your spell slots, as the local mages guild likely has a monopoly on the sale of spells, and would only allow a guild member to do so, under guild rules. Even if there is no proper wizards guild, the local lord would likely have rules or laws in regards to selling magic, as that is too powerful, lucrative, and dangerous of a monopoly to give up.

Even if it was legal to sell your spell slots, you could only charge a fraction of what locals could charge. The small folk don't like strangers and outsiders, and they tend not to like magic either, so they are far more likely to pay someone they know and tolerate over an unknown, and if you undercut the locals you are going to have some pissed off magic users.

As a general rule, adventurers can't have normal jobs, not while still being adventurers(ie not without retiring). Feudal society puts much more stock in groups than individuals, and people are seen by where they belong in society. Nobles rule because they are nobles, peasants work because they are peasants, ect. Adventurers, by definition, live outside those norms. They are typically strong fighters who don't owe feality to any one lord. They are tolerated because someone needs to kill that giant or save that princess, but unless they are actively saving a town, most townsfolk would rather they move on.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could potentially sell 100% of your daily spell slots if you leave all of them open and prepare spells into them as needed:

"When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n)"

If you use MotAO to swap out spells, you can only sell up to half your daily spell slots because you'll have to replenish those you take from the pool in equal number.


Keep in mind that most buyers will want a spell at the minimum caster level, regardless of how high your own caster level is:
"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel)"

Certain spells will be desired at a higher caster level for duration and dispel DC, such as Deeper Darkness, Permanency, and whatever is made permanent. In that case you want to be able to cast them at a caster level of 20th, or you won't sell any at all.

If all else fails, get a few torches (1 cp each) and cast Heightened Continual Flame on them, and charge full price for them. That overrides any darkness effect of a lower spell level, and can lead to a [Darkness]/[Light] arms race. Before you know it the characters who sell 9th level spells will be using Earth Spell and Sanctum Spell and Improved Sigil: Krau (via Shapechange) to sell 12th level Continual Flames.

[Flickerdart]

You could potentially sell 100% of your daily spell slots if you leave all of them open and prepare spells into them as needed:
Given that 24hr notice is expected for spellcasting, this really isn't the issue OP is facing when he wants to sell more spells. As illustrated by the Sharn quote, selling anything at all is going to be extremely difficult.

[Slipperychicken]

Given that 24hr notice is expected for spellcasting, this really isn't the issue OP is facing when he wants to sell more spells. As illustrated by the Sharn quote, selling anything at all is going to be extremely difficult.

The real issue here is that there aren't any rules to determine how hedge-wizardry works from the seller's end.


We could assume it's the same as with products. The rules don't have us rolling to see if someone wants to buy the DC 11 Color Spray wand, so it's possible to assume that there's sufficient demand for the caster's spell slots, and one generally makes out with 1/2 the list price, after expenses, taxes, and fees.

If there was even a listed % chance to find buyers for products of a given price, we could reverse that into a chance to find sellers.

[Flickerdart]

The Sharn quote is the closest thing we have to rules on the subject, and it's pretty clear that the quantity of spell slots per day that can be sold isn't very high. One could argue that other settings might have different demand, but given that Eberron is basically the only setting to apply magic to society, demand in other settings is likely to be even lower.

[SinsI]

So, here's my question: hypothetically, percentage-wise, how many slots could I sell each day reliably (in a high fantasy metropolis)?

If you are selling as a part-time - one per day at most, on a good day. Unless you offer it at a very,very big discount that it becomes economically feasible. (think Silver instead of Gold).

[Zetapup]

If you wanted a fairly involved model, I'd do something like the following:

You can sell N spell levels per day, where N starts at 1 and increases weekly until you hit your full set of available slots or 1% of the city's gold piece limit of income per day. The weekly increase is described by a die size, such as d4 or d6, set by a few factors. It starts at d1 and increases d1->d2->d4->d6->d8->d10->d12->2d6->2d8->3d6->3d8->...

If the die size becomes negative, you lose business that week: -d1 -> -d2 -> ...

- Population < 100: -1 die size
- Population < 1000: -1 die size (stacks)
- Population > 10000: +1 die size
- Population > 100000: +1 die size (stacks)
- Extended (e.g. no one-shot buffs) Profession check (weekly): +1 die size at DC 20, 30, 40, .... Also +1% gp income cap per.
- Good reputation/credentials/fame: +1 die size for each factor up to +3 die size
- Bad reputation/shoddy work/infamy: Reverse of above, unless you agree to do illegal contract work at which point this modifier and the above are both zeroed.
- Advertisement campaign: 1000gp per week cost, +1 die size
- High local growth rate/demand modifiers: +1 die size (e.g. they're putting up a castle and you have Wall of Stone). Also +5% gp income cap.
- Local superstition/you don't belong to the local Guild/you have poor spell selection compared to competitors: -2 die sizes.
- Selling at a 20% discount: +1 die size
- Selling at a 20% markup: -4 die sizes and lose high population benefits (more competition)

Every week you don't work, your business (number of slots sold per day) drops by 10%.

This is probably too involved of course... So a quick rule of thumb would be '20% the first month, 50% the second month, 80% the third month, then 100%'.

Ooh I may nab this if I ever run an economic-y game or participate in one

[Trilby]

The above assumes you're in a Metropolis (Sharn in Eberron), are a member of the Wizard's Circle (which you have to pay 1000 gp to join, and then 250 gp per caster level each year), are using the organization as a front to sell your services, and you give the organization 10% of your earnings. Even then you can only "usually sell a few spells each day".

Great find Cruiser1, this is what I was looking for.

As mentioned before, I cleared it with my guild (the Arcane Order is the go-to 'good guy' magic guild in this setting, I'm a member in good standing and cleared it beforehand with the local regent), I am in a metropolis, and I definitely am doing this under their banner. A 10% commission for the guild seems completely fair. I checked with the DM and he said that 'a few spells each day', could reasonably be interpreted as all of my highest level slots and one level below, and 1d4 each of low level spells (0-3). He also told me to not worry about lowering my CL, so far I think I'm getting a sweet deal :smallcool:.

And I agree about the plot hook angle, I think you could build a fun encounter/adventure out of 'desperate mage sells spell slots, and is forced to face the consequences by the recipients'. Sadly we're not doing that, because this is meant as a way for my guy to catch up to the rest of the party--who came into some good loot before I joined the campaign. This seemed like as good an explanation as any to find lots of gp laying about.

So thanks playground, great answers all round! It was really enlightening to get everyone's perspective.