Disks of Doom [a broken PF build idea]

[Dr.Orpheus]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor
Look at these shields I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but what if you bought tons of quickdraw light wooden throwing shield and had the quick draw feat. It allows someone to throw shields as free actions limited only by GP and a big carrying capacity.

[Shinken]

You know, surprisingly, I think it works. The wording on throwing shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/throwing-shield) was certainly meant for something else entirely, but as it stands... :smalleek:

[Khosan]

Well, you could draw shields as a free action, but I think you'd still need to throw them as part of an attack, limited by BAB and whatnot.

EDIT: Whoops, missed the free action part of throwing shields. Carry on then.

[Fouredged Sword]

That is hilarious. "You can trow the shield as a free action" should never have crossed the editors desk.

[Shinken]

That is hilarious. "You can trow the shield as a free action" should never have crossed the editors desk.

Indeed. I'm surprised it took this long for someone to notice this!

When Captain Golarion throws his mighty bajillion of shields...

[Yanisa]

Silly enough this does not circumvent the rule for multiple attacks.


"A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack."

It still is poorly worded and means you can do walk, cast a spell and throw a shield.

[Shinken]

Silly enough this does not circumvent the rule for multiple attacks.
I think you're putting too much weight on that rule. Otherwise Combat Reflexes would only work after you make a full-attack.


It still is poorly worded and means you can do walk, cast a spell and throw a shield.
Even under your reading, you can still make a full attack and then throw as many free action shields as you have on you.

[Larkas]

It still is poorly worded and means you can do walk, cast a spell and throw a shield.

Hmmmm... Could you imbue the shield with a touch spell?

[Yanisa]

I think you're putting too much weight on that rule. Otherwise Combat Reflexes would only work after you make a full-attack.
Attacks of Opportunity work in a different way, say specifically they are extra attacks and are outside your round. It is really rare to find a feat that allows more then 1 attack on your turn, or AoO in your turn and they mostly call out the ability to make more then one attack per round. At least they did in 3.5.



Even under your reading, you can still make a full attack and then throw as many free action shields as you have on you.

I just realized that too... Damn I was too late to stealth ninja edit it in. At least it does end at some point, unlike a 1d2 crusader.

[Zubrowka74]

Hmmmm... Could you imbue the shield with a touch spell?

You mean, like a Myrmidarch Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/myrmidarch) would?

[Shinken]

Attacks of Opportunity work in a different way, say specifically they are extra attacks and are outside your round. It is really rare to find a feat that allows more then 1 attack on your turn, or AoO in your turn and they mostly call out the ability to make more then one attack per round. At least they did in 3.5.
The rule you quoted does not mention "turn" anywhere in it's text. It only mentions "round". There is no such thing as "your round", there is your turn inside the round. There are other cases of multiple attacks per round with less actions - such as the scorching ray spell or Cleave. Those instances have no specific wording say it overrides that rule, they just say "action X achieves effect Y", relyying on specific overrides general.
It is no different than the shield thing.

[Yanisa]

The rule you quoted does not mention "turn" anywhere in it's text. It only mentions "round". There is no such thing as "your round", there is your turn inside the round. There are other cases of multiple attacks per round with less actions - such as the scorching ray spell or Cleave. Those instances have no specific wording say it overrides that rule, they just say "action X achieves effect Y", relyying on specific overrides general.
It is no different than the shield thing.
Hmph :smallfrown:, stop poking holes in my faulty premise, I am, and will be proven, wrong, but I am not going to admit it.

Cleave states specifically that is allows an additional attack as part of a standard action. The shield toss ability does not say it allows extra attacks, just that the throwing is a free action.

(And using spells, that is unfair, spell casters break all the rules.)

[Shinken]

OK, I got it.

Captain Golarion is a Warpriest. His chosen weapon is the throwing shield. This means Cap gets monk unarmed damage and uses his full base attack bonus when he throws his shield. With fervor, he can buff himself twice before he begins throwing shields on you. This can be done from first level. He maxes Str for the carrying capacity and wears a Blinkback Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back), combining it with the properties of a belt of mighty hurling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-mighty-hurling) as soon as possible.
Blinkback Belt gives us 4 slots to store shields, you wear one on each arm and one on your back. 7 shields, 7 attacks per round. I think you could carry a lot more shields than that, but this seems solid enough and has RAW backing.
For feats, I would consider Deadly Aim. All you really need is Dex 13 for requirements. Other than that, pump Str like crazy, cast standard cleric buffs and kill everything.

[stack]

I think Captain Andoran would be a more fitting name. Also, great catch on a funny build.

[Khatoblepas]

Isn't passing someone an item also a free action? If so, the Commoner Railgun is reborn as the COMMONER CHAINGUN.

Equip a line of Commoners with as many shields as you can, stretching back as far as you can go, to a huge pile of shields that's constantly being replenished by a caster with Fabricate, ideally in a place where shields spill out everywhere in all directions, so that your chain of commoners need only reach down and pick up as many shields as they can carry. If each Commoner also can carry 7 shields, and you have, say, 100 Commoners in a line.

As a free action, our master thrower can chuck out 700 shields. The commoners would then require 7 rounds to pick up and reequip themselves with more shields. (Move action to pick up a shield off the ground, standard action to put it away. All Commoners would have Quick Draw as their feat. Uh, the Commoners would also have to be Warriors, but that's a minor quibble because Commoner Chaingun sounds better)

If I knew that Gate allowed line of sight and line of effect through it, we could open a Gate behind the thrower and have our commoner ammo belt safely stored in a demiplane full of throwing shields.

1/7 rounds as a free action, our Commoner Chaingun could kill any monster, destroy any structure, or level an army with a bunch of frisbees. (And if we have several groups of commoners, we can cut our damage potential, but also lower the cooldown.)

[Zubrowka74]

You're all aware, though, that RAW the DM has a vetoe on how many free actions you can use in a round, right?

Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity.

And also...

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

[Shinken]

You're all aware, though, that RAW the DM has a vetoe on how many free actions you can use in a round, right?

By RAW the DM can veto anything, so...

[Dusk Eclipse]

OK, I got it.

Captain Golarion is a Warpriest. His chosen weapon is the throwing shield. This means Cap gets monk unarmed damage and uses his full base attack bonus when he throws his shield. With fervor, he can buff himself twice before he begins throwing shields on you. This can be done from first level. He maxes Str for the carrying capacity and wears a Blinkback Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back), combining it with the properties of a belt of mighty hurling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-mighty-hurling) as soon as possible.
Blinkback Belt gives us 4 slots to store shields, you wear one on each arm and one on your back. 7 shields, 7 attacks per round. I think you could carry a lot more shields than that, but this seems solid enough and has RAW backing.
For feats, I would consider Deadly Aim. All you really need is Dex 13 for requirements. Other than that, pump Str like crazy, cast standard cleric buffs and kill everything.

You might also want clustered shot, but the mental idea is simply awesome.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Where are the rules for throwing this shield?
I am interested in this idea as a fun experiment but I dont know this set of rules.

[Hytheter]

It's worth noting that the Quick Draw shield also specifically says that you can put it away as a free action, so if you give all your shields the returning enhancement then you can quickly catch and put away all the shields you threw last turn, ready to reuse on anyone who survived the shield-pocalypse the first time around.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I could see a Blinkback belt being refluffed as a bracer, not sure if that would change the cost if it only did it for one item.

But it returning after the attack is resolved meanins since the attack is a free action you could literally spam the shield endlessly. God if this gets put on a Warpriest its game over.

[Hytheter]

But it returning after the attack is resolved meanins since the attack is a free action you could literally spam the shield endlessly. God if this gets put on a Warpriest its game over.

Sadly the effect of returning activates at the start of your next turn, not during your turn. Otherwise you could indeed throw shields infinitely, or at least until the DM throws something at you.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It adds nothing to the build's main purpose, but... if you plan to carry around and quick draw infinite cheap shields anyway...might want to take Fortified Armor Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fortified-armor-training-combat) and also become immune to crits. :smallbiggrin:

Fortified Armor Training (Combat)

You have learned to let your armor bear the brunt of the worst attacks.

Prerequisite: Proficient with armor or shield.

Benefit: If an opponent scores a critical hit against you, you can turn the critical hit into a normal hit. If you do, either your armor or your shield gains the broken condition (your choice).

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Sadly the effect of returning activates at the start of your next turn, not during your turn. Otherwise you could indeed throw shields infinitely, or at least until the DM throws something at you.

When the wearer draws a weapon attached to this belt and throws it before the end of her next turn, the weapon teleports back to its strap or sheath immediately after the attack is resolved. - PFSRD (Blinkback Belt)

[SiuiS]

Silly enough this does not circumvent the rule for multiple attacks.

It still is poorly worded and means you can do walk, cast a spell and throw a shield.

Already caught, but that means you get +Infinite thrown shields and also your normal attack allotment!


Hmph :smallfrown:, stop poking holes in my faulty premise, I am, and will be proven, wrong, but I am not going to admit it.


*pat pat*


*


Is there any way to get the thrown shield to return immediately? There are a couple 3.5 ways of doing this, such as incarnum Hax. Is there a feat that bounces the shield off of a target? Even a ricochet would work I think, if you can get it so you bounce the shield back at yourself, catch it and trow it again immediately.

E: *reads the thread*

Huzzah! Now if only you could squeeze iaijutsu focus in there...

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Does anyone know the range on this weapon, I am having trouble finding a range.

[avr]

Throwing shields have a range increment of 20'. See the bottom of this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons) page, under the heading Ranged Attack Range Increments.

[SiuiS]

Alright, some questions.


Does PF require belts to be worn at the waist, or just take up the Belt Slot?

Does PF have the brilliant energy weapon property?

Does PF have the Distance weapon property?



I want to build Tron.

[Shinken]

When the wearer draws a weapon attached to this belt and throws it before the end of her next turn, the weapon teleports back to its strap or sheath immediately after the attack is resolved. - PFSRD (Blinkback Belt)

Gorr, I think you caught up on something very interesting. I hadn't noticed this, but you don't even need multiple shields with a Blinkback Belt. The attack is resolved, so the shield teleports immediately back to the belt, so you can draw it again and throw it again. Yes, this is an infinite loop with a single shield. Wow. :smalleek:

[Gemini476]

I'm not entirely sure I'd it's relevant or even still a thing, but didn't SKR put out something to the effect of limiting you to three free actions/round back when Paizo was panicking over Gunslingers being able to attack rather quickly thanks to that string-thing that let you reload while dual-weilding pistols?

I specificly remember that on account of it being extremely dumb.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Even if that is a thing, that is three attacks before making your actual attack turn.

[Yanisa]

I'm not entirely sure I'd it's relevant or even still a thing, but didn't SKR put out something to the effect of limiting you to three free actions/round back when Paizo was panicking over Gunslingers being able to attack rather quickly thanks to that string-thing that let you reload while dual-weilding pistols?

I specificly remember that on account of it being extremely dumb.

Yeah, it was a suggestion for limiting free actions in the FAQ! That's the dumbest part.


A: Core Rulebook page 181 says,
"Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more fr ee actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
Core Rulebook page 188 says,
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn."

Although there are no specific rules about how many free actions you may take in a round, it is reasonable for a GM to limit you to performing 5 free actions per round if each is a different free action, or perhaps 3 free actions per round if two or more are the same free action.
Part of this is for the sake of game balance (as some abilities used together may allow you to perform an unlimited number of useful free actions on your turn).
Part is for realism (as just because you can do something as a free action doesn't really mean you could realistically perform that action 5 or more times in 6 seconds).
Part is to speed up gameplay (as one character taking a dozen actions on his turn slows down the game compared to a character who only takes a standard action and move action on her turn).

Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances.

Example: In one round you could speak, cease concentrating on a spell, dismount (with a DC 20 Ride check), drop a weapon or shield, and drop prone, as each is a different free action.
Example: In one round you could reload a pistol three times (using alchemical cartridges and Rapid Reload [pistol]), or speak and reload a pistol twice, as you are repeating the same free action multiple times.

—Pathfinder Design Team, Thursday (10/3/2013)

Luckily as of 10/17/13 they removed the specific examples. I guess a lot of people got angry. But it is still here, on the internet, and it will never die.


Even if that is a thing, that is three attacks before making your actual attack turn.

Free actions (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Free-Actions) can only be taken on your turn or that at least that is what the rules seem to allude to.. Talking states a specific exception for being outside your turn.

[grarrrg]

I'm not entirely sure I'd it's relevant or even still a thing, but didn't SKR put out something to the effect of limiting you to three free actions/round back when Paizo was panicking over Gunslingers being able to attack rather quickly thanks to that string-thing that let you reload while dual-weilding pistols?

I specificly remember that on account of it being extremely dumb.

The "string thing" was the Weapon Cord. And they handled that by making Weapon Cord a Move Action instead of a Swift.

Also, limiting your number of Free Actions would have hurt Bow/other-ranged users just as much, if not more than Gun users.

[Keneth]

I think the intent was that you can unstrap the shield as a free action and then throw it as a normal attack.

Even as it stands, free actions are arbitrarily limited by the GM's whim, so it's not infinitely abusable.

It is dangerously cheesy though. :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

I think the intent was that you can unstrap the shield as a free action and then throw it as a normal attack.

Oh, we know darn well what the INTENT was.

The point is that the wording is quite poor (like so many other things) and begging for loophole abuse.

[Yanisa]

Also, limiting your number of Free Actions would have hurt Bow/other-ranged users just as much, if not more than Gun users.

Not bow users, they are the superior master race of ranged combat.

Reloading a bow is Not An Action (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Not-an-Action)

Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not bow users, they are the superior master race of ranged combat.

Reloading a bow is Not An Action (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Not-an-Action)

Sadly, while loading/knocking the arrow may be defined as not an action, drawing the arrows is defined as a free action, iirc.

In any case, that suggestion was stupid. They didn't like full attacking touch AC with "power attack" (deadly aim; same thing) despite putting rules in place to full attack touch AC while "power attacking" super easily and all within the same book, then scrambled to nerf anything relating to the exploit they could w/o nerfing the touch AC part that was the actual problem.

How soon folks forget that Wraithstrike was universally considered overpowered in 3E for the exact same reason. And that actually had (presumably, being a spell) daily usage limits and was melee-only! :smallannoyed:
But no! It's totally the weapon cords and drawin' stuff parts that need the fixin', amirite?

[Yanisa]

Sadly, while loading/knocking the arrow may be defined as not an action, drawing the arrows is defined as a free action, iirc.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;(Source (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#TOC-Melee-and-Ranged-Weapons))
Pardon me but: Hahahahahaha :smallbiggrin:

I bet that was part of the reason the examples got removed, oversights like that.

[Shinken]

Sadly, while loading/knocking the arrow may be defined as not an action, drawing the arrows is defined as a free action, iirc.

In any case, that suggestion was stupid. They didn't like full attacking touch AC with "power attack" (deadly aim; same thing) despite putting rules in place to full attack touch AC while "power attacking" super easily and all within the same book, then scrambled to nerf anything relating to the exploit they could w/o nerfing the touch AC part that was the actual problem.

How soon folks forget that Wraithstrike was universally considered overpowered in 3E for the exact same reason. And that actually had (presumably, being a spell) daily usage limits and was melee-only! :smallannoyed:
But no! It's totally the weapon cords and drawin' stuff parts that need the fixin', amirite?

I think you're kind of overreacting here, Stream. You still can full-attack with a gun and use deadly aim despite the weapon cord nerf. You just can't do that while using TWF. I think this has more to do with weapon cord never being supposed to be this good for such a low price than anything else.
Anyway, if you use DSP material (like you should), there is feat to put a weapon away as a free action.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Of course it happens on your turn.
I mean when it starts my turn I can throw at least three shields or a single shield 3 times and then once the DM has smacked me for the abuse I can have my character move and act as I normally would. It does not limit me much.

[Zubrowka74]

By RAW the DM can veto anything, so...

Yes by by this rule you don't even need veto or rule 0. And let's face it, if there's a limit to the length of what you can speak, there's certainly a limit to how many shields you can unstrap and throw.

Come to think of it, the belt trick wouldn't work even with unlimited free actions : you unstrap the shield, throw it, it goes back to the belt, you draw it, all free actions but then you have to burn a standard to throw it.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-throwing
Free action for 50gp

[Shinken]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-throwing
Free action for 50gp

Exactly, that's the whole point. It's right there in the OP (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/quickdraw-shield).


Yes by by this rule you don't even need veto or rule 0. NAnd let's face it, if there's a limit to the length of what you can speak, There's certainly a limit to how many shields you can unstrap and throw.
It just says there is a limit, it never says what limit there is. It included some examples, but those examples have been removed anyway, so the point is moot. That's not a rule, it's just saying "it's OK to use rule zero to avoid silly shenanigans with free actions". Which, of course, includes infinite loops with throwing shields. Doesn't make the wording any less ridiculous, doesn't make the TO behind such a build any less solid, just means a DM can stop it in actual play - which the DM can do with anything anyway.

[Yanisa]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-throwing
Free action for 50gp

And I thought this one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/throwing-shield) was poorly worded. Why do we need two of them?

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Warpriest lv 20 with weapon focus on light shield with a throwing quickdraw shield can throw endless 2d10 shields.

[Zubrowka74]

It just says there is a limit, it never says what limit there is. It included some examples, but those examples have been removed anyway, so the point is moot. That's not a rule, it's just saying "it's OK to use rule zero to avoid silly shenanigans with free actions". Which, of course, includes infinite loops with throwing shields. Doesn't make the wording any less ridiculous, doesn't make the TO behind such a build any less solid, just means a DM can stop it in actual play - which the DM can do with anything anyway.

My point being that some TO enthusiasts do not take DM's decision / veto / rule 0 into account unless it's specified in the text. IMO this cannot be wiggled out of even in TO. And even with a permissive DM, no belt shenanigans by my reading. You'd have to strap them or find some other loophole.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

What are you talking about? They could use this regardless of blinkback belt just limits their amouny throw its all still free action

[Zubrowka74]

What are you talking about? They could use this regardless of blinkback belt just limits their amouny throw its all still free action

That's what I'm saying.

[Dusk Eclipse]

My point being that some TO enthusiasts do not take DM's decision / veto / rule 0 into account unless it's specified in the text. IMO this cannot be wiggled out of even in TO. And even with a permissive DM, no belt shenanigans by my reading. You'd have to strap them or find some other loophole.

The whole point of TO is taking the rules as written to their limits without DM intervention, because as Shinken has said at least 3 or 4 times in this thread a DM has the right to veto ANYTHING, heck once I played in a game where Power Attack was banned because it was OP (to be fair the group was a a theater club and they treated the game more as a freeform RPG, I didn't play with them anymore after that first session).

You want a loophole to use the blinkback belt? OK, here it is:

First let's take a look at the throwing shield's description:

Benefit: This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls.

It says you can unclasp and throw it as a free action, but that doesn't mean that in order to throw it as a free action you have to unclasp it first.

Now let's take a look at the Blinkback belt:

A set of clips is attached to this segmented belt constructed of metallic links.

Up to two one-handed melee weapons or up to four light melee weapons can be hung from the belt in straps or sheaths. When the wearer draws a weapon attached to this belt and throws it before the end of her next turn, the weapon teleports back to its strap or sheath immediately after the attack is resolved.

Oh hey, the Throwing shield returns to it's strap, allowing you to unclasp it and throw it.

[Shinken]

Warpriest lv 20 with weapon focus on light shield with a throwing quickdraw shield can throw endless 2d10 shields.
Yeah, it has already been mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17207424&postcount=13).


And even with a permissive DM, no belt shenanigans by my reading. You'd have to strap them or find some other loophole.

You seem to have missed the quickdraw shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/quickdraw-shield). "If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action."

[Dusk Eclipse]

Darn it Shinken, I find a loophole and you come and upstage me by finding actual rules support.... :smalltongue:

Now I really want to use this on a game >_<

[Shinken]

Darn it Shinken, I find a loophole and you come and upstage me by finding actual rules support.... :smalltongue:

Now I really want to use this on a game >_<

Well, to be fair, Dr. Orpheus was the one who mentioned it first (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17202520&postcount=1). Even though the throwing shield has wonky and abusable wording, by itself it's sorta fine - it means you could kill a monster with your full attack then throw your shield at someone else as a free action. Hell, maybe they even intended that, since it looks so damn cool.
The madness only begins once quickdraw shield enter the fray and the possibility of multiple shields shows up (with Blinkback Shield for an infinite loop). The Belt of Mighty Hurling or Warpriest's Sacred Weapon are not really needed, theoretically - after all, an infinite number of attacks eventually kills anything.

[Zubrowka74]

The whole point of TO is taking the rules as written to their limits without DM intervention, because as Shinken has said at least 3 or 4 times in this thread a DM has the right to veto ANYTHING, heck once I played in a game where Power Attack was banned because it was OP (to be fair the group was a a theater club and they treated the game more as a freeform RPG, I didn't play with them anymore after that first session).

Right, and since free actions, AS WRITTEN, do NEED the DM's intervention, this means they are not valid TO material. Again, this my interpretation, you do whatever you like at your table, no harm done.


You want a loophole to use the blinkback belt? OK, here it is:

First let's take a look at the throwing shield's description:

It says you can unclasp and throw it as a free action, but that doesn't mean that in order to throw it as a free action you have to unclasp it first.

I disagree, "AND" being exclusive, you need both to have the free action. Otherwise, by your reading you don't even need to unclasp them and would we able to just stand besides a pile of shield and throw away whatever you can pile up...


Now let's take a look at the Blinkback belt:


Oh hey, the Throwing shield returns to it's strap, allowing you to unclasp it and throw it.

I read the belt's description too fast, it indeeds works RAW. The shield description suggest it's the way that the shield attaches to the arm that enables the free action (thank you sloppy writting!) but yes, as Shinken pointed out you bypass this with quickdraw anyways.

[Zubrowka74]

Oh my, double checking the SRD entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-throwing) for Shield, Throwing, it's even worst! You don't even need to unclasp the shield... This madness I say!

Benefit: You can throw the shield as a free action. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply to your attack or damage rolls.

But the other entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/throwing-shield) (Throwing Shield) does specify both.

[Shinken]

Right, and since free actions, AS WRITTEN, do NEED the DM's intervention, this means they are not valid TO material. Again, this my interpretation, you do whatever you like at your table, no harm done.
Well, do you realize that interpretation also means casting more than one spell with material components per round is not valid TO material (retrieving items from a spell component pouch is a free action)? It would also mean making more than one attack with a bow per round is not valid TO material (drawing an arrow is a free action). It would also mean builds that involve talking, attacking with an arrow and casting a spell in the same round would not be valid TO material.
I think you're talking this FAQ suggestion a bit too seriously, buddy.

[Yanisa]

Oh my, double checking the SRD entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-throwing) for Shield, Throwing, it's even worst! You don't even need to unclasp the shield... This madness I say!

This one seems to be fan edited(?). Both my Adventures Armory and Ultimate Combat use the other wording. This one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/throwing-shield), but i am not sure what other copies says. One might also be the updated, errataed or whatever version, its hard to keep track off.

I still voice for this one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/throwing-shield) being the more official one.

[Zubrowka74]

Well, do you realize that interpretation also means casting more than one spell with material components per round is not valid TO material (retrieving items from a spell component pouch is a free action)? It would also mean making more than one attack with a bow per round is not valid TO material (drawing an arrow is a free action). It would also mean builds that involve talking, attacking with an arrow and casting a spell in the same round would not be valid TO material.
I think you're talking this FAQ suggestion a bit too seriously, buddy.

Well, it all depends what's you rules for RAW-based TO. I make a distinction between DM veto in general (rule 0) and DM intervention when it's written in the book. To me it's two things. One allows the DM to arbitrarely ban or allow unspecified rules. The other allows him, in the text, to define a specific number of free actions. Like PB or starting traits.

But no, I'm merely stating my opinion on this. You can have all the fun you want throwing an infinite number of shields, I won't spoil you fun or judge you! :smallwink:

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think you're kind of overreacting here, Stream. You still can full-attack with a gun and use deadly aim despite the weapon cord nerf. You just can't do that while using TWF. I think this has more to do with weapon cord never being supposed to be this good for such a low price than anything else.
Anyway, if you use DSP material (like you should), there is feat to put a weapon away as a free action.

You seem to have misunderstood....

I'm upset that the REAL problem is being able to full attack and power attack vs. touch AC stupidly easily (with or without TWF for even more damage output) but instead of fixing THAT, paizo decided to suggest a dumb and senseless nerf to free actions that hurts nearly *everybody*. A mid level archer doesn't actually function according to their suggested 3 free actions per turn, and gods help him if he wants to spout a one-liner while he shoots, too. A dagger thrower gets hosed right from level 1.

[Shinken]

You seem to have misunderstood....

I'm upset that the REAL problem is being able to full attack and power attack vs. touch AC stupidly easily (with or without TWF for even more damage output) but instead of fixing THAT, paizo decided to suggest a dumb and senseless nerf to free actions that hurts nearly *everybody*. A mid level archer doesn't actually function according to their suggested 3 free actions per turn, and gods help him if he wants to spout a one-liner while he shoots, too. A dagger thrower gets hosed right from level 1.

Paizo doesn't even suggest 3 free actions per turn anymore, that line was removed from the FAQ. I'm afraid I still don't see your point, sorry.
I think you're either complaining about how guns work in Pathfinder or about Paizo's nerf to weapon cord, but that had very little (if anything) to do with this thread. I advise you start a new thread if you want to discuss those subjects, though I confess I am not even slightly interested in such discussion.

[Slipperychicken]

This is so awesome. This guy is basically going to be the center of a tornado of bucklers.

Cap should also commission some massive quickdraw+throwing shields and get Shrink Item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shrink-item) cast on them. This way, he can toss them to the ground so they expand for quick battlefield control if/when necessary.


Indeed. I'm surprised it took this long for someone to notice this!

I noticed the exploit a while back (trying to make a switch-hitter ranger who would quick-draw a shield between Greatsword swings), then decided to purge the cheese from my mind.

[TuggyNE]

Right, and since free actions, AS WRITTEN, do NEED the DM's intervention, this means they are not valid TO material.

There's a crucial distinction between "you can limit this if you like" and "this can only be done with specific approval". The latter is the case for e.g. spell research, custom magic items, and the like, which is why those are very seldom TO'd with. But the former is just fine, since it works by default and has to be actively shut down, as opposed to not working by default and needing to be actively allowed.

[Slipperychicken]

There's a crucial distinction between "you can limit this if you like" and "this can only be done with specific approval". The latter is the case for e.g. spell research, custom magic items, and the like, which is why those are very seldom TO'd with. But the former is just fine, since it works by default and has to be actively shut down, as opposed to not working by default and needing to be actively allowed.

More concisely, TO generally assumes a passive GM who isn't willing to rule either way.