You own a layer of Baator. Now what?

[DarthCyberWolf]

You’re an all-powerful character and you have just deposed an Archdevil of Baator. Congratulations! As the new Archduke of a layer of hell (not Nessus, good luck with that one), what are you going to do with it?

Most of the devils of your layer are kept in line by your display of power, but can you hold your station against overly ambitious underlings? Or against other Archdevils looking to gain an easy layer from this upstart mortal? What changes, if any, are you going to bring to your layer? Does it matter which layer you have? Are you going to introduce a little bit of tippy-verse to it? What can you do with the divine power harvested by the devils since, as Archduke, you have complete jurisdiction with that layer’s energy unless Asmodeus says otherwise. Will you come up with a plan, or carry out Asmodeus’, and conquer the multiverse (starting with the Abyss obviously, grr)? Or will you sabotage the devils for the forces of good (or the Abyss)?

Inspired by one ending of Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark

[Flickerdart]

How all-powerful are we talking? Asmodeus is obscenely powerful. If he wants you to lose, you basically lose. Schmoozing up to him (or at least causing him less trouble than the previous guy overall) is basically the only way you don't die.

[Brookshw]

What can you do with the divine power harvested by the devils since, as Archduke, you have complete jurisdiction with that layer’s energy unless Asmodeus says otherwise.

Do the what with the what now? I'm all for rehashing the devil/demon lords with divine ranks but by RAW you're not getting any divine power as I'm understanding your meaning. Could be completely wrong.

Also note that you're not the lawful ruler of the layer just because you took out the last guy, the realm itself will be rising up against you.

Okay, canon objections aside I like the idea, sounds fun! Absolutely work on consolidating power, expanding influence, try to avoid being too much of a pawn (though you'll probably be an unwitting one at SOME point).

Get out of the blood war, stay away, it's not doing you any good.

Find a way to in secret raise a nupperibo to significant power to hold as a trump card M.A.D. deterrent if you ever need it.

Go hang out with the Loth's, play both sides against each other.

[123456789blaaa]

I need more info. Am I a devil or a non-native?


The Hag Countess was a non-native ruler and the Layer she ruled was constantly crumbling and coming apart. Boulders detaching from the mountainsides were a constant threat (she actually lived in a giant boulder that rolled down he slopes of the Layer).

Was I appointed Lawfully by the Infernal Bureaucracy or am I taking it by force? Because if it's the latter, I cannot see many non-silly, non-verisimilitude breaking ways to keep the Layer. You'd be against everyone else in the Hells. Including the devils on the Layer you "rule". And you won't be able to control the Layer.

What are my abilities and resources? The average Pit Fiend has an Int score of 26 . You'd need at least a little more than that to survive the constant plots of almost everyone around you.

Which Layer?

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd probably sell the layer to the highest bidder, probably for goods and services instead of coin. I'm sure the layer is extremely valuable, but it's probably a matter of diminishing returns for the average adventurer. Hell is a place that tend to ensnare one in its labyrinthine laws and subtle dance of deceptions and betrayals; to play that game in the long run is the kind of thing that would hijack almost all of a party's resources and priorities.

And, even then, the party would likely still face extermination in the long run. Hell is an eon-spanning hegemony. It doesn't favor the upstart, not by a long shot.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd rather own a lawyer of Baator. :smallamused:

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd rather own a lawyer of Baator. :smallamused:

Of course, the important point is the agreed-upon definitions of "own" and "lawyer" in this specific legal context. What rights and responsibilities are conferred upon the owner, for what duration, and to what extent do those rights supersede the existing rights and responsibilities of said lawyer. That's what really makes or breaks said ownership.

:smalltongue:

[CyberThread]

I'd probably sell the layer to the highest bidder, probably for goods and services instead of coin. I'm sure the layer is extremely valuable, but it's probably a matter of diminishing returns for the average adventurer. Hell is a place that tend to ensnare one in its labyrinthine laws and subtle dance of deceptions and betrayals; to play that game in the long run is the kind of thing that would hijack almost all of a party's resources and priorities.

And, even then, the party would likely still face extermination in the long run. Hell is an eon-spanning hegemony. It doesn't favor the upstart, not by a long shot.




oh ... HI Bel

[Phelix-Mu]

oh ... HI Bel

Well, that's a relative upstart. I still think Bel was rather longer in the trenches than the PCs in question in the OP.

[Slipperychicken]

You’re an all-powerful character and you have just deposed an Archdevil of Baator. Congratulations! As the new Archduke of a layer of hell (not Nessus, good luck with that one), what are you going to do with it?

Most of the devils of your layer are kept in line by your display of power, but can you hold your station against overly ambitious underlings? Or against other Archdevils looking to gain an easy layer from this upstart mortal? What changes, if any, are you going to bring to your layer? Does it matter which layer you have? Are you going to introduce a little bit of tippy-verse to it? What can you do with the divine power harvested by the devils since, as Archduke, you have complete jurisdiction with that layer’s energy unless Asmodeus says otherwise. Will you come up with a plan, or carry out Asmodeus’, and conquer the multiverse (starting with the Abyss obviously, grr)? Or will you sabotage the devils for the forces of good (or the Abyss)?

Inspired by one ending of Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark

Define the bolded segments in terms of D&D rules.

[Stoneback]

So can I get people to call me Master Baator?

[Phelix-Mu]

So can I get people to call me Master Baator?

I'm sure this would cause some snickering among the pleasure devils.

[Brookshw]

Well, that's a relative upstart. I still think Bel was rather longer in the trenches than the PCs in question in the OP.

And he's stilled viewed as a twit of no consequence by the rest of the devil lords and is barely tolerated by asmodeus. Really, it kinda sucks be him.

[Phelix-Mu]

And he's stilled viewed as a twit of no consequence by the rest of the devil lords and is barely tolerated by asmodeus. Really, it kinda sucks be him.

Indeed. Bel is always just one failed campaign from being demoted, and only a series of successes by the Dark Eight (or whatever it is) from being subject to mutiny by his underlings (who are pretty close to him in power level, unlike most of the other Archdukes).

[(Un)Inspired]

First of all, This. One hundred times this:

So can I get people to call me Master Baator?

Next this:

And he's stilled viewed as a twit of no consequence by the rest of the devil lords and is barely tolerated by asmodeus. Really, it kinda sucks be him.

Bel is a chump because he doesn't have any real casting if I'm not mistaken. I believe none of the Devils have divine ranks so they should go down like punks when a wizard comes in to take over one of their levels.

Then my second edict after changing my title to Master Baator? probably finding that father/daughter combo of devils that keep banging and make them live on separate layers. I don;t need hillbilly devils bringing down the atmosphere of my hell.

[Brookshw]

I don;t need hillbilly devils bringing down the atmosphere of my hell.

Bonus points to you sir!

[Werephilosopher]

Do the what with the what now? I'm all for rehashing the devil/demon lords with divine ranks but by RAW you're not getting any divine power as I'm understanding your meaning. Could be completely wrong.

According to FCII, the whole reason Asmodeus and co. started tempting mortals to evil was so they could claim their souls after death and harvest divine energy from them by torturing them in the most excruciating ways possible. This is how archdevils are so powerful, and how they are able to grant spells to followers despite not being gods themselves.

That being said, the only reasonable way to hold on to the layer for an extended period of time would be to be evil yourself; you can't maintain a good alignment while torturing souls for energy, and you probably won't last long if you give up that source of power trying to be good.

[DarthCyberWolf]

For the character, I was mainly thinking of the usual PC kind. What class and level, I would leave up to the person. What ever level you think you could get away with killing an Archfiend and cowing the lower devils into submission. I would go with an arcane caster, personally. I wouldn’t feel right taking over something like that while owing fealty to a god for spells.

Obviously, Asmodeus could send you packing anytime he wanted. Other than that though, succession has always been a little fluid in Baator. There was a non-fiend in control of a layer at one time; the Hag Countess.

The divine energy I mentioned is a bit weirder. From Fiendish Codex II, souls who go to Baator are harvested by the devils. “While slowly peeling away every last iota of the petitioner’s individuality, the process releases magical energy, which flows to the local lord as specified in the Pact Primeval.” By divine power, I don’t mean the Archdevils have divine ranks (though it could be said they might have a 0). There’s not any rule specific thing you can do with it, so it’s up to the imagination. It takes some of this energy to promote a devil to a higher form. Inversely, demoting a devil relieves some of this energy back to you. The devils also use it as currency, bartering back and forth. Mephistopheles is using it to create Hellfire. He’s also currently in debt to a couple other Archdevils because he was borrowing some from them because of Hellfire.

[Captnq]

Just Remember... You asked.

For everyone else, I'd skip it.


I will slaughter all within my sight and gather their skulls.

Upon the throne of skulls I will perch and cry out to the entire realm to come to me. I will wait until they have gathered. They will be compelled to fall to the ground in supplication. An unnatural silence will fall over the multitude. I will wait. Wait until the silence grows. Until it becomes a force unto itself. An almost physical presence that I shall slay with my voice.

I have but one command. All must be brought down low.

And as you bring that which is high down. We will stand on what was once high. We will stand on the throats of children so that we receive our tribute before food reaches their belly. Now is a new era. An Era of where we shall show all of creation MY VISION! A vision of TRUTH. A Vision Where all is revealed! For in truth is there is no truth.


My finger shall be raised and a bolt shall split the sky.

They say WE dwell in darkness, then they hide truth in darkness. They hide their secrets. They hide what they do not wish to face. We face the darkness. We face the truth. WE ARE WHAT THEY CLAIM TO BE!


I will rise from my throne.

YOU ARE THE LEARNED ONES. You are those who have chosen to face truth! Truth is Harsh! Truth burns away the dross, for only in a forge of darkness can we be reborn!


I shall pause and wait. Then Wait. Then finally speak so quietly they barely hear me, but magic will carry my words to every ear.

Existence is not fair. Good things happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people. They claim that bad things happen to you because you are bad. You suffer because you are bad. You are punished, because you are bad. But you are not bad. You are better then those fools who choose to blind themselves, who throw themselves into the light and hope to burn away everything they are. To stop existing, surrendering to the light, washed away to white energy that flares then dwindles away spreading out across the void... our dwelling.


My voice will rise.

You Are Truth. You are Far More Real then anything else in existence. Your actions are justified! Suffering is not proof that we are wrong! Have not all of us done "The Right Thing?" at one time or another? But the "right thing" was not rewarded! In fact we have all learned that No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!


The sky will crackle with a manifestation of my rage.

Do not Fall For the Lies of the Light! Know that We Are Brothers In Truth! I Have A Vision! A vision were we unite as one and once and for all bring Low That Which Once Was High and Spread The Truth To All Corners of CREATION!


I will gesture to the bottom of the heap of skulls.

From my throne of skulls, I will lash together bone, metal, and Fear. I will craft a cataclysm! It shall Be unmaking Given Form! With it I shall Bore a Hole from this world to another. A giant sphere shall appear in the lands of light. The heralds of my arrival will be ten times ten thousand tenebrous talons that flutter forth to spread word of our imminent arrival.


I will stab my finger at the multitude before me. Yet, to each creature before me, regardless of where they kneel or where they look, it will appear that I am pointing right. At. THEM.

YOU. YOU SHALL CLAIM YOUR BIRTHRIGHT. You shall Go forth and bring truth to the blinding lies. You shall Carve away the illusions and insanities and you will bring clarification to chaos! You shall drag the willfully blind away to the cooling safety of darkness!


I shall lower my hand and my voice.

And when you have saved those who accept truth. When the last wretch that can be saved rejects the comforting embrace of self-deception...


I shall pause.

I Shall Step Through.


I will glance about.

But not all shall be saved. Many will reject the comming of truth. Reject our love for creation. For them, I shall weep. Weep tears of bubbling pitch that will stream down my face. With a heart burdened with sorrow and obligation, I will grant them the only peace that I can.


My eyes will lift to the skies of dying charcoal.

I will sing the song that destroys their world.


A look of serenity will wash over my face.

And you... all of you... will have many new guests in our home. Friends that need to learn of truth. Our obligation will be clear. We will teach them. They must learn truth. You must give then anguish without relief. Suffering without mercy. Torment without end. Not out of anger. Not out of desire... But because of obligation. And what is our obligation? Our obligation is Love. For that is what we are... We are Love itself.


My smile will grow and grow until my face starts to fracture from the strain. A sickening, popping sound will echo across the stillness. All will gaze upon me but desire to turn away, but they will not... cannot. They will be transfixed. Turned into unwilling witness to my inscrutable countenance.

For that Is What I have for ALL of YOU! A deep and ENDLESS Love! My boundless love shall UNITE us all... NO! It shall unite all of CREATION! For I have brought A Gift!




My teeth with shatter. My form will crumble like shale, then reform only to collapse again in an endless cycle of decay.



My Gift...




My expression will be tender and kind. My body is continuously pulverized then reformed in a cycle of endless horrific violence that the crowd is forced to imagine happening to them. My Voice soft and tender, filled with the promise of hope and new beginnings.



...is pain.

[Mithril Leaf]

According to FCII, the whole reason Asmodeus and co. started tempting mortals to evil was so they could claim their souls after death and harvest divine energy from them by torturing them in the most excruciating ways possible. This is how archdevils are so powerful, and how they are able to grant spells to followers despite not being gods themselves.

Wow, what wusses. My cleric of himself can grant spells to himself without having to pull any of that harvesting soul energy bull.

It's legit, Elder Evils confirmed.

[Brookshw]

According to FCII, the whole reason Asmodeus and co. started tempting mortals to evil was so they could claim their souls after death and harvest divine energy from them by torturing them in the most excruciating ways possible. This is how archdevils are so powerful, and how they are able to grant spells to followers despite not being gods themselves.


True though it also breaks from preexisting Canon. For example BoVD specifies they don't grant spells but act as patrons/brokers, nor do they actually have any divine ranks (though it offers the option). If you go back through the editions it changes a bit further. Of course go forward big A becomes a god. Didn't the fcII also say they wanted to corrupt mortals to replenish their ranks?

[HaikenEdge]

Wow, what wusses. My cleric of himself can grant spells to himself without having to pull any of that harvesting soul energy bull.

It's legit, Elder Evils confirmed.

I'm still convinced a spellthief ur-priest who steals spells from himself is still more interesting and powerful.

[NichG]

If I'm Team Evil (e.g. for the evil!): take contracts to use it as a waste dump for stuff that is too charged with cosmic Evil to actually be convenient to store in otherwise cosmically Evil places. The layer is now a trojan horse. Counterbalance by having the entire place be genuinely nice and encourage Good to inhabit the layer (as a base for raiding the lower planes, as a refuge for redeemed souls, whatever). Attempt to provoke a layer shift into the upper planes. Release the horrible stuff in a way that it attaches to and gets tracked around by visitors. Alternately: the layer of noble sacrifice of virtue - the deal is that I will release ten Neutral souls who made bad deals into the redeeming hands of the celestials in exchange for each Good soul who is willing to sacrifice themselves and live in the layer, who is guaranteed to live in comfort without the torture or suffering of the normal inhabitants (of course, them living in comfort while there is suffering nearby and being unable to change it is not considered 'torture' by this contract...). Who needs a few souls when you can export double-bind ethical paradoxes to the Upper planes?

If I'm not: stamp out every overt sign of my ownership of the layer. Put a puppet in charge who appears to be directly under Asmodeus. Let day to day running of the layer go as normal, but keep an eye out for who plots and schemes against the 'ruler'. Begin experimentation with permanent-portal planar transfusions to create cross-aligned creatures in an attempt to develop a new sort of planar soulstuff (e.g. the way rogue modrons emerge from the interaction of Limbo and lawful exemplars). Try to tease out specific aspects of planar materials, in the vein of Dark City. Sell my services as a planar terraformer not for actual profit, but for sake of using these new skills. And yes, there is actually a PrC for this...

[jedipilot24]

I think both Hell and the Abyss operate on the "You Keep What You Kill" rule. So you just killed Mephistopheles? Congratulations, you are now the new Mephistopheles.

[Brookshw]

I think both Hell and the Abyss operate on the "You Keep What You Kill" rule. So you just killed Mephistopheles? Congratulations, you are now the new Mephistopheles.

The Abyss, sure. The Nine Hells are much more questionable. During the reckoning the dark eight as part of Asmodeus' plan beat all the other archdukes pretty much but didn't get to take over their layers. If you're using pre fcII material Asmodeus took control from Baalzebul so that's one in favor of this belief. Geryon got the shaft in the reckoning even though his side "won". The Hag Countess took out Moloch's attempt to reclaim his realm but wasn't allowed to keep it.

I am chuckling a bit that Levistus, after killing Asmodeus' (cold elusive) wife did get to become quite the frigid b**** himself.

Now's probably a good time for an Afro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317316&page=35)link.

Edit: for spelling.

[Oliver Veyrac]

I would open a shopping mall. seriously, i would open a shopping mall. Ever see black friday? It is truly the "bloodwar," only now atleast hell will make a profit. not only that, but supply and demand. Only one tv per person! Oh and don't forget the lines, and the waiting.

[Sian]

Attempt to lure enough Celestials to set up Shop as Androlynne 2.0 (Layer 471 of Abyss), without the children, with a Good encampment on the evil's doorstep

[rmnimoc]

That totally depends on WHICH layer, and how all-powerful I am.
For this plan, I'm operating under the assumptions of Dis and by "all-powerful" you mean level 20, since usually when I get above that I can smack Asmodeus around like the wuss he is.

My goal....locking the demons down in the Abyss is an obvious first landmark goal.

Steps One and Two:
Introduce Dis to the Emerald Legion. While not the most powerful force in existence, it is one of the most efficient for waging a war against the Abyss. Begin sending the Legion to Avernus. I can get that set up rather easy, and they will be able to relieve the pressure against Bel, while simultaneously weakening his political position and strengthening mine. That will probably buy me a bit of time to avoid the fallout of my conquering of hell by cementing myself as a powerful force.

Step Three:
Dethrone Bel. He has little power and even less support. Once the Legion begins forcing the battlefield into the Abyss, he won't have as many opportunities to prove himself and gain little bits of favor. Since I've already killed Dispater, I'll be able to drop Bel with little to no challenge. Arrange for a puppet ruler of Avernus. It's a bold move and it won't win me any friends, moving me from "force to be reckoned with" to "eminent threat". Asmodeus won't be happy with me, but he will most likely leave me be for the time because of how well I'm handling the situation with the Abyss.

Step Four:
Counterplay. The only devils who are tolerating me at this stage are Asmodeus and the ones under my command. This stage is rather fluid, having to plan around whatever actions the other Arch-Devils are taking. Baalzebul will probably be the first of the other devils I'll have to drop. I'll probably do so by getting him hit with Sanctify the Wicked. That really won't win me any points, but that drops arguably the biggest non-Asmodeus threat remaining. Continue to push into the Abyss during this time. Get as many casters as possible down there to study how the demon-producing works and if there is a way to counter, control, or replicate it.

Any steps beyond this are even more fluid, but end goals include: Dethroning the other Arch-Devils, Slaying Asmodeus, Destroying the pre-devil denizens of Baator, Slaying the Demon Lords, either dismantling or destroying the Abyss, doing the same to Limbo, elevating Erinyes, conquering the rest of the lower planes, and converting the lower planes to good. Not necessarily in that order.