Why are the Celestials so Embattled?

[VoxRationis]

The fluff text for the malconvoker, plus some other inklings here and there (plus the discussion between the fiends in OotS), seem to indicate that the Blood War is what keeps the forces of Evil from overwhelming the forces of Good.
My question is "Why?"
If there are a lot of humans/other Neutral races out there plus a lot of Good-by-default races (such as dwarves and elves, although a lot of people forget that they're good by default) out there as well as the evil ones, there shouldn't be that much of a huge mismatch in number between good and evil outsiders that stem from the souls of those races. (There will probably be A mismatch, but not necessarily overwhelming.)
Furthermore, if we look at the celestials and fiends, we see something. I'm not going to look at the entire series of monsters right here, so please tell me if there's something I'm missing, but look at this:
The default "infantry," low-level devil is a slow-moving melee creature with no special abilities other than to summon another slow-moving melee creature. The same, with a few differences, goes for the default demon.
The default, "infantry," low-level celestial is the humble lantern archon, a floating ball of light... which has flight with perfect maneuverability and a ranged touch attack that bypasses all forms of damage reduction.
Therefore, not taking their higher-ups into account, a force of lantern archons can defeat infinite numbers of lemures or dretches, provided they have enough time.
When we take the other end of the spectrum, we see that the pit fiend, for example, is "blessed" with a wide array of spell-like abilities, a fly speed of 60 feet, and fearsome melee attacks, while the solar... is blessed with a wide array of spell-like abilities, fearsome melee attacks and fearsome ranged attacks at the same time, over twice the pit fiend's fly speed with better maneuverability, and 20th level cleric casting.
How much of a numerical disadvantage would the celestials have to have in order for this idea of them being embattled to make sense?

[Aergoth]

Philisophically, this is because most interpretations of "Good" don't involve starting fights without provocation. Add to that unless you involve actual gods, storming the gates of hell isn't going to gain anything. The forces of good and evil aren't involved in a land war because no one wins, much like the Blood War.

Mechanically, your assumption that a force of lantern archons can defeat infinite numbers of dretches and lemures also seems to assume an infinite number of lantern archons. Latern archons have 4 health and their light rays (while they bypass DR). The theoretical force of lantern archons is either constantly retreating and only dealing 1d6 damage a turn (lemures and dretches have 9 and 14 health respectively) or full attacking and remaining stationary. The ability to summon more dretches, their ability to use stinking cloud provides cover from the ray attacks and can nauseate the lantern archons.

Basically what you wind up with isn't a fight where the lantern archons crush an army of evil aligned outsiders, but a fight where neither side is capable of lasting victory. While lantern archons can kite lemures, the lemures are not in a fight without greater devils to back them up/force them into combat. They're not combatants, they're cannon fodder. Likewise with the dretches, who will simply kite back with stinking clouds for cover and summon more reinforcements. They would also have greater demons to assist them.

[Psyren]

Mortal souls are not the primary source of demons - they spontaneously generate from the Abyss itself, and in extremely great (seemingly infinite) numbers, according to the whims of the plane.

Also, what Aergoth said; from a narrative and even metagame standpoint, there wouldn't be much need for heroes or valor if the angels were running around curbstomping everything without mortal aid. For good mortals to matter, the angels have to be barely achieving parity or even losing.

[DeltaEmil]

It's to justify mortal heroes doing heroic things, instead of explaining the world being a perfect utopia guarded by undefeatable immortal and ultra-powerful celestial beings who further the cause of objective Good and have effortlessly crushed Evil. That is the absolute only reason ingame and out-of-game.

Logically, there would be infinite hordes of good celestials to balance out the infinite hordes of fiends, since the upper planes are as infinite as the lower planes.

tl;dr: Because D&D says so.

[Brookshw]

tl;dr: Because D&D says so.

That's simply beautiful.

[Psyren]

Even if the planes are equally endless, that doesn't mean they work the same way. Celestia for instance could have an arbitrary set number of archons that it produces and no more, and it can only produce more once existing ones are slain. Alternatively, it could be infinite production, but so much slower than the Abyss that they can't replenish their numbers nearly as fast and it becomes effectively finite.

[Segev]

I've always had a similar problem with it. The Lawful outsiders typically are more powerful than their Chaotic counterparts, and the Good outsiders are likewise stronger than their Evil counterparts, to the point that an LG Solar is just that much more powerful than a Pit Fiend and is significantly more powerful than a CE Balor (Type VI demon).

And yet, good aligned creatures are far more likely to work together, or at least avoid deliberately working against each other. Likewise, Lawful types tend to work well together almost by definition: they set out rules of how to get things done and interact, and they avoid needless conflict escalation.

Conversely, Chaotic types tend to all have their own ways of doing things; good ones will sometimes work to unintentional cross-purposes, while neutral ones will disregard each other's concerns except where they overlap and evil ones will out-and-out backstab each other.

Individual chaotic and evil entities thus SHOULD be stronger than their lawful and good counterparts, as they have to stand against the undermining influence of their supposed "allies" AND their own counterparts. Meanwhile, individual Lawful and Good beings should be able to rely on each other to provide strength to shore up their weaknesses; they don't fight their counterparts alone, and even more don't have to worry about their own side backstabbing them.


That isn't how it's set up in D&D, though.

[OldTrees1]

Even if the planes are equally endless, that doesn't mean they work the same way. Celestia for instance could have an arbitrary set number of archons that it produces and no more, and it can only produce more once existing ones are slain. Alternatively, it could be infinite production, but so much slower than the Abyss that they can't replenish their numbers nearly as fast and it becomes effectively finite.

For additional evidence of finite populations of infinite planes, see Modrons.

[Spore]

Isn't there also a point made somewhere that a shattered soul creates thousands of small demonic critters while a pure soul creates ONE Angel?

[VoxRationis]

Philisophically, this is because most interpretations of "Good" don't involve starting fights without provocation. Add to that unless you involve actual gods, storming the gates of hell isn't going to gain anything. The forces of good and evil aren't involved in a land war because no one wins, much like the Blood War.

Mechanically, your assumption that a force of lantern archons can defeat infinite numbers of dretches and lemures also seems to assume an infinite number of lantern archons. Latern archons have 4 health and their light rays (while they bypass DR). The theoretical force of lantern archons is either constantly retreating and only dealing 1d6 damage a turn (lemures and dretches have 9 and 14 health respectively) or full attacking and remaining stationary. The ability to summon more dretches, their ability to use stinking cloud provides cover from the ray attacks and can nauseate the lantern archons.

Basically what you wind up with isn't a fight where the lantern archons crush an army of evil aligned outsiders, but a fight where neither side is capable of lasting victory. While lantern archons can kite lemures, the lemures are not in a fight without greater devils to back them up/force them into combat. They're not combatants, they're cannon fodder. Likewise with the dretches, who will simply kite back with stinking clouds for cover and summon more reinforcements. They would also have greater demons to assist them.

The health of a lantern archon is irrelevant when there is no way that the dretches or lemures can touch them. Ironically, lantern archons aren't the brightest bulbs in the chandelier, but they're still smart enough to understand "hover 30 feet above the melee-only enemy and tear into them". They don't actually need to retreat at any point unless they meet flying or ranged units. And yes, there are higher-ranked fiends, but wouldn't those be occupied fighting the higher-ranked celestials, who are often of higher CR than their closest fiendish equivalents?

[Urpriest]

The health of a lantern archon is irrelevant when there is no way that the dretches or lemures can touch them. Ironically, lantern archons aren't the brightest bulbs in the chandelier, but they're still smart enough to understand "hover 30 feet above the melee-only enemy and tear into them". They don't actually need to retreat at any point unless they meet flying or ranged units. And yes, there are higher-ranked fiends, but wouldn't those be occupied fighting the higher-ranked celestials, who are often of higher CR than their closest fiendish equivalents?

Dretches and Lemures are Outsiders, and thus have Martial Weapon Proficiency. Presumably a few of them have bows.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think it's not so much that they are embattled, just that there is much work that can be done in the cause of virtue and against the ways of evil without war.

While the celestials may or may not be able to hold their own against the Lower Planes, what seems certain is that all-out total war would quickly spill over onto all planes and engulf all mortals in the conflict. While this doesn't much bother many of the fiends (and may indeed serve their purposes), the celestials almost certainly don't want this to happen. I'm not entirely sure why they don't, but it always has seemed to me that the celestials generally favor less-interventionist means when interacting with mortals. Total war is anything but that.

[HunterOfJello]

You misunderstand a large and extremely important part of the basic setting in D&D.

The forces of good are strong but extremely extremely few. The forces of Chaotic Evil vary widely in power, but are literally infinite. The forces of Lawful Evil are very powerful, though there are a limited number of them.

If all of the good outsiders in all of the planes attempted to take on either Hell or the Abyss without the help of any Evil outsiders, they would fail. They just aren't plentiful and powerful enough to take either on.

This is the setting your character lives in. Good is nowhere near as powerful as Evil and the only thing stopping the entire multiverse from being either enslaved by Devils or masacred by Demons is the Blood War.

The role of Good in this kind of multiverse is to do the best they can with what they have, save as many innocents from getting caught in the war as possible, and make sure that the war never ever ends.

[VoxRationis]

That sounds more like the basic setting of Warhammer.

Ur-Priest: I hadn't considered that they Dretches might get bows. Aren't lemures mindless and nearly formless to boot, though? How would they use bows?

[Haldir]

I'm not entirely sure why they don't, but it always has seemed to me that the celestials generally favor less-interventionist means when interacting with mortals. Total war is anything but that.

I'd conjecture that there is a philosophical restriction that exists for good characters. Free will, unpredictable consequences and the like.


Also, instead of assuming some arbitrary limit on good characters producing more or less frequently than evil characters, I'd suggest a simpler explanation-

Less mortals are good than they are evil. I daresay most of the people posting on this forum would be considered quite evil by the standards of pure being of law and good. Each and every single one of us has likely condoned horrific working conditions that were used the make our clothes and computers, possibly empowered a politician who made unjust war or committed fraud against the public (most of them do), and done a million other little things in your life that have brought more harm than good. There's really no reason to assume any different of your average D&D world.

tl;dr- The hells have more people in them than the heavens because it's a hell of a lot easier to be evil than it is good. Thus we need paragons of heroism to run errands for Celestia- better to lose a mortal and gain a soul than to lose a Four thousand year old Solar.

[VoxRationis]

Well, that sort of imbalance would mean you'd have to restat all the Neutral races as tending to Evil, which isn't too much trouble, but does assume a shift from the baseline assumptions of the game.
Furthermore, most people in the modern world aren't presented with a great number of realistic or practical alternatives to the evils you just mentioned. Not sacrificing everything or starting revolutions against problems with the scenario one was born into is not Evil behavior. That's Neutral behavior.

[Jack_Simth]

The health of a lantern archon is irrelevant when there is no way that the dretches or lemures can touch them. Ironically, lantern archons aren't the brightest bulbs in the chandelier, but they're still smart enough to understand "hover 30 feet above the melee-only enemy and tear into them". They don't actually need to retreat at any point unless they meet flying or ranged units. And yes, there are higher-ranked fiends, but wouldn't those be occupied fighting the higher-ranked celestials, who are often of higher CR than their closest fiendish equivalents?
It's not Dretches and Lemures vs. Latern Archons. It's Imps and Quasits vs. Lantern Archons. Pretty much the same CR (2), but fly 50 (perfect) and at-will self-invisibility make kiting by the Lantern Archons problematic at best.

[Snails]

The idea is to create dramatic tension, that emulates some of the feel of medieval and older mythologies.

For Example: "To choose Good is better and the Good will ultimately prevail, but to choose Evil is to choose power." How does one set up a universe where the stats of the monsters make this plausible? There are many possible choices. In D&D the designers made the Celestials much superior (therefore making an eventual future victory plausible), but made Evil more accessible (by being numerous and more disposable).

The Blood War also ties in with the moral theme "Evil's worst enemy is itself".

Also, along HunterOfJello's point, there are lots of Creation/Founding myths where Divine Lawgiver Champion beats back Chaos, thereby allowing the time and space for civilization to blossom. But ultimately Chaos cannot be truly vanquished, and is "out there" somewhere trying to beat its way back in.

[VoxRationis]

Ah, that's something I hadn't considered. Thank you. I was comparing the lowest-CR troops on each side, when I should have been comparing those of roughly equivalent CR. So fiends just have a tier below everyone else in addition to the normal hierarchy? Interesting.

Imp v. Quasit v. Lantern Archon would be interesting, considering that the latter can "hide their glow" (and since they are entirely a glowing object, this would make them effectively invisible as well). A battle where no one can see the other...
Would you rule that as how that works? When will-o'-the-wisps hide their glow, it counts as invisibility, so that's where I'm drawing my analogy. Although will-o'-the-wisps have it explicitly listed as an ability... Hm. That sounds fishy. What do you think they mean by "hide their glow?"

[Esprit15]

Perhaps they are just a small being that normally glows very brightly. After all, if they were pure light, they would count as being incorporeal.

[Urpriest]

That sounds more like the basic setting of Warhammer.

Ur-Priest: I hadn't considered that they Dretches might get bows. Aren't lemures mindless and nearly formless to boot, though? How would they use bows?

Eh, they've got claws with 5 ft reach, so they've got arms. And being mindless doesn't deprive you of weapon proficiency automatically, think of all the skeletons that wield weapons.


It's not Dretches and Lemures vs. Latern Archons. It's Imps and Quasits vs. Lantern Archons. Pretty much the same CR (2), but fly 50 (perfect) and at-will self-invisibility make kiting by the Lantern Archons problematic at best.

This is another important point: there are lots of different sorts of troops on offer for each side, they've got the liberty to play rock-paper-scissors with them, especially since there are non-flying base-level celestials, like Mustevals.

Another point: Lantern Archons are not necessarily going to be able to handle themselves in battle. Stats aside, they might just not have the temperament to hurt people. Most good people go their whole lives without hurting anyone, I wouldn't imagine their souls would be, on average, more martial. On the flipside, Hell is designed to be a boot camp for souls, while the Abyss is based on survival of the fittest.

[Werephilosopher]

Ah, that's something I hadn't considered. Thank you. I was comparing the lowest-CR troops on each side, when I should have been comparing those of roughly equivalent CR. So fiends just have a tier below everyone else in addition to the normal hierarchy? Interesting.

Yep. I'm not sure about dretches, but lemures are basically proto-devils that spawn after a mortal soul's had the energy tortured out of it in the Hells. The section on them in Fiendish Codex II is actually pretty interesting.


Imp v. Quasit v. Lantern Archon would be interesting, considering that the latter can "hide their glow" (and since they are entirely a glowing object, this would make them effectively invisible as well). A battle where no one can see the other...
Would you rule that as how that works? When will-o'-the-wisps hide their glow, it counts as invisibility, so that's where I'm drawing my analogy. Although will-o'-the-wisps have it explicitly listed as an ability... Hm. That sounds fishy. What do you think they mean by "hide their glow?"

I think the picture for lantern archons show a butterfly-like creature made of gold wire, with a ball of light in the center. In that case, hiding their glow would just make them look like a wirey butterfly.

[Phelix-Mu]

Although the game gives the forces of good carte blanche to rub out evil beings (especially fiends). I don't think lantern archons would question orders to wipe out fiends. Good is good, not wimpy.

[Urpriest]

Although the game gives the forces of good carte blanche to rub out evil beings (especially fiends). I don't think lantern archons would question orders to wipe out fiends. Good is good, not wimpy.

I mean sure, I'm not saying they'd object. Just that they'd be hesitant and fearful when faced with actual combat, and probably make bad choices based on a lack of experience.

[Phelix-Mu]

I mean sure, I'm not saying they'd object. Just that they'd be hesitant and fearful when faced with actual combat, and probably make bad choices based on a lack of experience.

But is that really backed up by the fluff? I always viewed things that actually became archons as a cut above petitioners, so I thought they would have been given the primers on the responsibility of power, their potential role in battle, and so forth. I really don't see Celestia as being "unprepared" for battle, even if they have no intention of actually pursuing that strategy.

[Urpriest]

But is that really backed up by the fluff? I always viewed things that actually became archons as a cut above petitioners, so I thought they would have been given the primers on the responsibility of power, their potential role in battle, and so forth. I really don't see Celestia as being "unprepared" for battle, even if they have no intention of actually pursuing that strategy.

Eh, it's hard to tell with Lantern Archons, but it doesn't really matter. Either Lantern Archons are a cross-section of the Good population, in which case most of them aren't ready for battle, or they're an elite group, in which case they're going to be overwhelmed in numbers by the more mass-produced Lemures and Dretches.

One thing to think about: yes, there are probably more good people in the mortal world than evil people. But good people willing and able to take a stand against evil? They're much more of a minority in typical fiction.

[VoxRationis]

I don't think that a creature with an ability called "Aura of Menace" is going to be hesitant in combat any more than tactical prudence requires.
Also, I've seen the wiry butterfly thing, but that's for Pathfinder. The 3.5 MM shows a ball of light, which is why I wasn't sure what would be at the core of the ball of light.

[Phelix-Mu]

From MM, the general description of archons:


Archons are celestials from the plane of Celestia. They have
charged themselves with the protection of the plane, and also consider
themselves guardians of all who are innocent or free of evil.
They are the natural enemies of fiends (creatures of the lower
planes), particularly demons.

It makes no exception for lantern archons, nor does the description of lantern archons mention anything on the topic other than that lantern archons are "friendly and usually eager to give assistance when they can." The combat section gives more evidence against them being randomly incompetent.

Sorry, I am just opposed to random celestials, especially archons, being anything less than ready to oppose evil. Even in combat.

[russdm]

tl;dr: Because D&D says so.

This is the sole reason. The game designers made a series of bad in game logic mistakes when setting up things and they didn't bother to think anything through. Even with the "blood war", the fiends (demons/devils) could wipe out the goodies and then spend the rest of the time fighting over the spoils.

In reality in game terms, both groups of fiends are actually watching The Big Bang Theory with all of Sheldon's hijinks and running the "blood war" to keep up appearances. Otherwise, the entire spectrum of Evil alignment in D&D is essentially run on Stupid Evil with all the Good alignment spectrum is run on Stupid Good, the neutrals run on Stupid Neutral.

At its basic level, the fluff is thoroughly stupid, because it presupposes that members of either side wouldn't have figured out that keeping the "blood war" going was stupid and they should stop bothering. Frankly, unless the celestials are popping in disguised and helping to make sure the pointless war goes on, both sides would have quit centuries ago.

[Yukitsu]

The fluff behind the blood war is mostly drawn from the idea that alignments are a thing, and they do things based on that alignment, not based on logic that governs our physical reality, but based on their concept.

Because of this, the LGs who want mostly to control for the sake of good, are in conflict with the CE that want to have the freedom to do evil things for no good reason whatsoever.

The LGs were the ones that fought the blood war ages ago before there was a Baator. The ones that fought against the abyss for too long became evil over time with the necessity of the actions that they had to take to stop themselves from losing. The LG and the LE were able to form pacts and agreements that they have largely honoured over history, but they can't negotiate with the chaotic individuals. Hell, celestia can barely negotiate properly with elysium.

Basically from this story though, is that maybe the celestials could win the war against the abyss, but the cost would be too high, even if they didn't lose any . The 9 hells have agreed to fight that war, and failing to uphold that agreement would be contrary to their very nature, and the CE will always opt to attack what they can if they feel it will cause pain, consequence or failure be damned. The Abyssals realistically can't ever win but cannot be convinced to stop, nor do they care to stop. The 9 hells theoretically could lose the blood war, but happen to be very good at their job. They don't opt to turn on celestia as they gain nothing from it in particular, and it would be anathema to their nature to go against direct treaties and contracts. If they lost, they may also find themselves stripped of the power they do have by the other lawful deities.

[Slipperychicken]

This is how I understand it:

The forces of good (technically Law at the time. Good didn't exist yet) could totally take on the abyss, and they did for a while. Problem is, the abyss can never be truly stopped (infinitely-respawning demons on infinite planes = bad news), so the war keeps going for ever. The gods eventually got sick of fighting and wanted to screw around (i.e. create the material plane, mess with mortals, etc), so they made the Pact Primeval. This cosmic deal let Asmodeus (the greatest general they had) fight the blood war for them in exchange for letting him rule Baator (the plane which would become known as Hell), but Asmodeus also tricked them into letting him convert misbehaving souls into soldiers (that is, turning bad souls into Devils).

The gods didn't read the fine print, and they sure didn't appreciate being tricked. They threw Asmodeus out of Celestia, back into his own plane with such force that it created "The Pit", which gave Asmodeus a wound so dire it can never heal, and every drop of blood which falls from it becomes a Pit Fiend. The gods also created the good/evil alignment axis just to distance themselves from him. As a result, Asmodeus isn't too happy with the gods either, and is said to spend most of his free time plotting their downfall. Thankfully, the Blood War keeps him busy enough that he can't seriously challenge the gods until it's over. Good thing the Abyss can never be truly stopped, right?


tl;dr: The gods could fight the blood war, but they got Asmodeus to do it for them.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm surprised that no one brought up the fact that it's an effort just to get all the celestials to unite in the first place. They might be all "Good", but their ideologies, standards and practices vary so widely that it'd be a herculean effort just to get them to agree to work as one united front.

[afroakuma]

Oh fine, I'll chime in.

• Angels do not fill the same role as other celestials; they were originally intended to function as the servants of good-aligned deities, and have duties not in keeping with bringing holy war against the fiends. Astral devas watch over the Astral Plane, keeping fiends from breaking through to the Prime, and give aid and succor to allies of good. Planetars are generals and flagbearers; providers of aid and obstacles to the plans of evil. Solars are the champions of individual deities or serve specific universal goods. A solar should not be compared to a pit fiend, because they're not at all the same kind of thing; a pit fiend or balor is the fiendish equivalent of a throne archon or tulani eladrin.

• Good is selective of which souls possess the spiritual fortitude, commitment, purity and desire to become celestials. Many good-aligned spirits just want to rest in the afterlife; those who do not become petitioners of the plane or a deity are few. The tanar'ri will exploit or just straight-up eat stray souls they find, and the baatezu scrape them all up and melt them down into lemures. In short:

• Good recruits; Evil conscripts.

• Good can falter; Evil is self-reinforcing. The Blood War, the power struggles of the tanar'ri and the Byzantine schemes of the baatezu may look flat-out idiotic at first glance, but they all serve to create a constant churn of sludge that drags down the wishy-washy and breeds despair and hatred in those who feel a spark of hope. The true masters of Evil in all of its guises have no involvement in the Blood War; they're evaluating the eventual war against Good and preparing for it in a big way.

• Good is divided. Archons have standards for themselves not just in terms of goodness, but in terms of lawfulness, and those who falter in their zeal are cast out just as surely as those who fall from grace. The celestial races may not war with one another, but eladrins and archons rarely get along and don't work well together.

• Good's working overtime. What we see "on screen," so to speak, are the stakes of Good vs. Evil in a world where Good is winning. Lives are lived, dreams are pursued, civilization flourishes across a thousand thousand planetary bodies. If there are evil counterparts to the angels, and knowing the Outer Planes, that's almost certainly the case, they're totally unknown and have never been seen active in any publication. Who's responsible for that? The forces of Evil were given a horrifying trove of secrets and dark power in the Ghoresh Chasm, but it took no time at all to split them up and keep it sealed, because the universe favors good really heavily. Demons don't casually stroll across the Prime in hordes; legion devils aren't pillaging Waterdeep every fortnight; souls are redeemed, abominations are kept back in their holes, and you worry that every so often a red dragon gets pissy or a demon lord tries to munch on some continent or other? The scales are not in balance; everywhere you look, you see the forces of evil trying to break in and conquer, but that means that they are currently on the outside looking in. The powers of Good don't lie in having equal numbers of foot soldiers to fight some putative battle with the Lower Planes; they have been invested into billions of lives and the potential that lies therein.

In a war against all the forces of Evil, the celestials would be destroyed, simply because what they do reduces their liquidity, so to speak. For Evil to shatter the very concept of Good, though, would require more demons and devils than have ever existed, because the worlds whose belief defines the Outer Planes are skewed firmly toward a multiverse in which Good, in the end, prevails over Evil.

[T.G. Oskar]

Oh fine, I'll chime in.

• Angels do not fill the same role as other celestials; they were originally intended to function as the servants of good-aligned deities, and have duties not in keeping with bringing holy war against the fiends. Astral devas watch over the Astral Plane, keeping fiends from breaking through to the Prime, and give aid and succor to allies of good. Planetars are generals and flagbearers; providers of aid and obstacles to the plans of evil. Solars are the champions of individual deities or serve specific universal goods. A solar should not be compared to a pit fiend, because they're not at all the same kind of thing; a pit fiend or balor is the fiendish equivalent of a throne archon or tulani eladrin.

• Good is selective of which souls possess the spiritual fortitude, commitment, purity and desire to become celestials. Many good-aligned spirits just want to rest in the afterlife; those who do not become petitioners of the plane or a deity are few. The tanar'ri will exploit or just straight-up eat stray souls they find, and the baatezu scrape them all up and melt them down into lemures. In short:

• Good recruits; Evil conscripts.

• Good can falter; Evil is self-reinforcing. The Blood War, the power struggles of the tanar'ri and the Byzantine schemes of the baatezu may look flat-out idiotic at first glance, but they all serve to create a constant churn of sludge that drags down the wishy-washy and breeds despair and hatred in those who feel a spark of hope. The true masters of Evil in all of its guises have no involvement in the Blood War; they're evaluating the eventual war against Good and preparing for it in a big way.

• Good is divided. Archons have standards for themselves not just in terms of goodness, but in terms of lawfulness, and those who falter in their zeal are cast out just as surely as those who fall from grace. The celestial races may not war with one another, but eladrins and archons rarely get along and don't work well together.

• Good's working overtime. What we see "on screen," so to speak, are the stakes of Good vs. Evil in a world where Good is winning. Lives are lived, dreams are pursued, civilization flourishes across a thousand thousand planetary bodies. If there are evil counterparts to the angels, and knowing the Outer Planes, that's almost certainly the case, they're totally unknown and have never been seen active in any publication. Who's responsible for that? The forces of Evil were given a horrifying trove of secrets and dark power in the Ghoresh Chasm, but it took no time at all to split them up and keep it sealed, because the universe favors good really heavily. Demons don't casually stroll across the Prime in hordes; legion devils aren't pillaging Waterdeep every fortnight; souls are redeemed, abominations are kept back in their holes, and you worry that every so often a red dragon gets pissy or a demon lord tries to munch on some continent or other? The scales are not in balance; everywhere you look, you see the forces of evil trying to break in and conquer, but that means that they are currently on the outside looking in. The powers of Good don't lie in having equal numbers of foot soldiers to fight some putative battle with the Lower Planes; they have been invested into billions of lives and the potential that lies therein.

In a war against all the forces of Evil, the celestials would be destroyed, simply because what they do reduces their liquidity, so to speak. For Evil to shatter the very concept of Good, though, would require more demons and devils than have ever existed, because the worlds whose belief defines the Outer Planes are skewed firmly toward a multiverse in which Good, in the end, prevails over Evil.

I'd like to point a few things, because everything has settled thus far in the Outer Planes. Before, that, though, I'd like to chime my PoV, in case it's necessary.

I don't really see the forces of Good being capable of ending the Blood War on their own, even cooperating (and, IMO, despite cooperation). Assume that, for some strange reason, the Blood War spreads through the Upper Planes in a last-ditch chance to eliminate Good forever. The Archons, the Angels, the Guardinals and the Eladrin would join forces and set their differences aside, because they're willing to. The assumption here is that Evil isn't willing to cooperate together; if one of the events in Baator ended up with several Archdevils deposed in an attempt to depose Asmodeus, and on the other side Orcus was actually shafted (he recovers, tho), it's insanely difficult to believe that, sometime, Evil will join and vanquish Good. That's probably what Celestials fear the most: Evil joining forces. The Yugoloth already skim those lines, but in the end, they're selfish and look for profit in a war between two Evil sides. Abyss could go and spread half its forces to conquer the Upper Planes, and Baator could certainly allow it; the Yugoloth could fight for both sides and keep the Blood War in a stalemate enough so that the Abyss can stop the Upper Planes. That'd be a curbstomp battle, though, as the Upper Planes are definitely willing to cooperate with each other, but there would be losses, and that's exactly what the Celestials fear: any loss would be great, particularly to an ideology where every life matters. Abyss won't do so because Baator would only suggest that if they had the upper hand, and Baator wouldn't do so because, partially out of pride and partially because they know the Abyss would overwhelm them in an instant, even with full Yugoloth support and the Demodands supporting them as well.

And we're not including the Modrons, the Slaadi and the Inevitables. The Inevitables would surely support an ongoing Blood War, since that seems to be a cosmological necessity (to keep the forces of Good and Evil in check, since it's been the thing thus far). Modrons are almost extinct, but surely they'd fight the Tanar'ri just because they're agents of Chaos, not because they're Evil, but they wouldn't throw their backs towards the Baatezu because they won't acknowledge their rule (even if both are Lawful). And Slaadi, much like the alien beings in the Far Realms, are the unpredictable factor; they get in, they might do anything from ending the Blood War on their own to make the Abyss rule over all or make the Upper Planes win just because.

Thing is, there's a stalemate for a reason, and here's the moment I want to expose what I believe it's missing:

The Material Plane is another battleground: for all the power and knowledge and wisdom of all Outsiders, mortals are the key to ending everything. Note that I mention "Mortals" and not just Humans, but the idea is pretty similar: Mortals can do things that Outsiders cannot. Mortals, for example, choose what they want to be; they're not built into an alignment, and thus can think outside the box. Mortals are willing to use the weapons of one to fight the other (say, the Malconvoker). Mortals can reach levels of virtue or depravation that can be unheard of, though apparently Evil isn't as creative as Good is demanding (a reason why most people "fall short of perfect goodness"). Most importantly, and a reason why Asmodeus worked the Pact Primeval: Mortals are a source of power and a vehicle to develop more power. Even Good has use for souls, but they don't drain souls of power; rather, they're, as the OotS shirt with O-Chul says, a "renewable resource"; that said, some Good souls become Celestials, others empower the Upper Planes with their purity and some join the Gods of Good, which directly empowers their side.

Then there's another thing about Mortals that makes them interesting: by thinking outside the box, they play against the "rules", even if Lawful. Thus, you can see Good and Evil cooperating, Good fighting against Good and Evil willing to cooperate with Evil, and also Law and Chaos taking sides. Consider that the original war (a throwback to OD&D) was Law vs. Chaos, not Good vs. Evil, but Law was associated with Good and Chaos was associated with Evil. It wasn't until Asmodeus and the Pact Primeval that Law and Evil became a thing (Lawful Evil), and that sorta broke the balance. It took Mortals to do so, though, and it's quite probable that Mortals influenced the creation of Archons and Eladrin to an extent; after all, Archons respect and prefer to let Good serve the Gods of Good rather than themselves, so there's a bit of Angel in them. Eladrin is rarer, but IMO it's more of a reflection of the fey in the Upper Planes.

Which is an interesting point to consider: the Material Plane and its conflicts are a reflection of the Upper/Lower Planes, to an extent. War exists from always, and the way Mortals wage war probably has advanced the stalemate of the Blood War to a point where it might be actually broken. Celestials are more worried about the souls of Mortals because of their power, because they respect Life in all aspects, and because they desperately need to keep the stalemate of the Blood War in check while Mortals themselves stop it; in fact, IMO, the long-term strategy of Celestials in the Blood War is "Mortals will solve it; here's hoping that we don't blow it and make the other side win". The long-term strategy of Baator is exploiting the Pact Primeval, and the long-term strategy of some princes of the Abyss is...taking advantage of Mortals and use them for whatever means.

In short: most of the questions regarding the Blood War (including this one, to an extent) resumes in "the Material Plane is the new war-front; it's really important to all sides". Good, and by extension Celestials, promote the ideals of heroism and Virtue so that Mortals willingly choose to fight for the side of Good, and by extension empower the Many to combat the other Many, rather than rely on the few to save the Many.

And, just for the sake of a curve ball: maybe the ace up the Celestials' sleeve is letting Evil sort out by itself to reveal the card of superior numbers? Good may not be foul, but neither is a fool.

[Tanuki Tales]

Wait...Limbo has enough power to end the Blood War? :smallconfused:

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, the number of slaad is probably also infinite, and they reproduce just by fighting (though many outsiders would be immune to their schtick), and the previous editions had some pretty disgustingly powerful stats for slaad lords. Not sure if any were ever statted for 3e, though. I rather doubt it, as Limbo gets ignored a lot. Black and white slaad are pretty awesome, though.

[Svata]

In other words, maybe, but the Slaadi butterstick crumpets ending purple lift.

[Necroticplague]

Well, the number of slaad is probably also infinite, and they reproduce just by fighting (though many outsiders would be immune to their schtick), and the previous editions had some pretty disgustingly powerful stats for slaad lords. Not sure if any were ever statted for 3e, though. I rather doubt it, as Limbo gets ignored a lot. Black and white slaad are pretty awesome, though.

Not all infinities are the same size, though. Slaad are both spontaneously produced by limbo and by egg implanting, so their infinity would be larger than others. Not to mention Slaads have one final super-weapon at their disposal: if they un-modified to spawning stone so that it could produce things greater than what it can right now, it would create new creatures of unimaginable power (which would probably have some interesting effects, given how the most purest of slaadi would have no fixed form).

[Phelix-Mu]

Not all infinities are the same size, though. Slaad are both spontaneously produced by limbo and by egg implanting, so their infinity would be larger than others. Not to mention Slaads have one final super-weapon at their disposal: if they un-modified to spawning stone so that it could produce things greater than what it can right now, it would create new creatures of unimaginable power (which would probably have some interesting effects, given how the most purest of slaadi would have no fixed form).

I agree that the slaadi have a numerical advantage in terms of their abilities to be created and to create each other, but they are even worse than demons when it comes to being directionless, fickle, and generally just wandering about doing whatever. In the Abyss, the strong can push the weak around, because everyone is fighting to survive/get stronger/live long enough to spit in the face of the demon with the boot on their neck right now. The slaadi are not even organized by such principles, and any powerful slaad needs to constantly fight against the instincts of his subordinates to engage in whatever behavior strikes them at the moment, as opposed to the leader's will. It is implied that the strong slaad do manage this, but it is typically shown as the exception rather than the rule underlying their behavior.

A concerted alliance of blacks and whites, though, would be a truly terrifying prospect.:smallbiggrin: I had an advanced black slaad, Pleeblormath, be a recurring villain/puppetmaster behind several of my campaign arcs, and had him served by slaad Entropomancers, four-armed, huge mutant blue slaad, and death slaad chaos monks using Beast Strike to buff their unarmed damage.

Does the egg implanting even work on most outsiders? I thought it counted as a form of disease.... Would be cool if most outsiders were affected, though.

[icefractal]

Are they? You don't see demons mounting a lot of attacks into the upper planes, and quite possibly that's because they can't - they would get curbstomped if they even tried. Conversely, you don't see the celestials invading hell or the abyss, because it would be a long bloody fight that they're unwilling to sacrifice that many souls to, and also I wouldn't be surprised if hell has some "mutually assured destruction" type stuff held in reserve to prevent exactly that.

[Crake]

Does the egg implanting even work on most outsiders? I thought it counted as a form of disease.... Would be cool if most outsiders were affected, though.

I see nothing to suggest that the egg implatation wouldn't work. From the looks of it, any creature could be implanted, even constructs it would seem, as silly as that sounds. It makes no mention of it functioning like a disease, although a remove disease spell rids a creature of the egg before it hatches.

[Phelix-Mu]

I see nothing to suggest that the egg implatation wouldn't work. From the looks of it, any creature could be implanted, even constructs it would seem, as silly as that sounds. It makes no mention of it functioning like a disease, although a remove disease spell rids a creature of the egg before it hatches.

Aww. Now the slaadi are officially the Borg of D&D, lol. Infectious chaos? Pure win.

[Eldan]

There's more to consider.

Limbo is the plane of ultimate creativity. Just by basically imagining somethign strongly enough, it can be created. A strong enough Slaad could pull any number of superweapons from the chaos.

Furthermore, there is the Spawning Stone to consider. The current breed of Slaad are locked into relatively weak (by outsider standards) and rigid forms by their rulers. In the ancient times, the Slaad were either formless shapeshifters or each had their own unique form. I'd think that if threatened enough, the Lords might be tempted to break it and release that variety again.

The way I imagine it, there could be a giant, pent-up potential of shapechanging energy behind the Spawning stone, like water behind a dam. If released, it might wash like a torrent across limbo, twisting each and every slaad into a new, unique and powerful form.

[VoxRationis]

I see nothing to suggest that the egg implatation wouldn't work. From the looks of it, any creature could be implanted, even constructs it would seem, as silly as that sounds. It makes no mention of it functioning like a disease, although a remove disease spell rids a creature of the egg before it hatches.

There might not be a verbatim statement about the matter, but the process is pretty clearly analogous to the implantation of eggs by parasitic insects such as the ichneumon wasp, and you can't feed a wasp on cogs and metal plates.

[Necroticplague]

Hmmmm..... I wonder if the SLAs of other outsiders mean that they would produce green slaads instead of just reds and blues.

[Eldan]

There might not be a verbatim statement about the matter, but the process is pretty clearly analogous to the implantation of eggs by parasitic insects such as the ichneumon wasp, and you can't feed a wasp on cogs and metal plates.

Then just assume that the Slaad larva does not eat flesh. It absorbs planar essence.

[Talya]

The forces of Good generally do not want to invade or wipe out Hell.

The Devils are the same formerly Lawful Good beings who were assigned to hold the Abyss in check countless aeons earlier, who over time were corrupted by the assignment. Nevertheless, they are still dutifully performing the task to which they were assigned. Whether he will acknowledge it or not, Asmodeus is still bound by this duty - the Blood War is the result.

It should come as no surprise that Good would lose if Evil stopped fighting itself. Evil fights itself because Lawful Evil is still doing the task it was assigned by its Good masters long ago. Hell was once the Armies of the Upper Planes. For them to team up with the Demons would be a betrayal for which the Upper Planes would be unprepared.

[SaintRidley]

Short answer: when you become a philosophical concept made manifest, you'll understand.

Long answer: the rest of the posts in this thread.

[Fooliscious]

It seems to be fairly straight forward in most things I've read on the subject of the alignment vs alignment fights that the Law vs Chaos is much higher on the tier list than Good vs Evil. It was the first axis and the supreme. The Blood War is simply more important to it's combatants than any good vs evil conflict that may pop up.

[Eldan]

The conflict is older and more openly fought, so I imagine there's more grudges and bad blood. The Archons and Tanar'ri may not like each other, but I could see them sending ambassadors.

[Hecuba]

At its basic level, the fluff is thoroughly stupid, because it presupposes that members of either side wouldn't have figured out that keeping the "blood war" going was stupid and they should stop bothering.

To play the fiend's advocate, why on earth would they want to stop it? To their eye, the infinite slaughter is desirable. Sure, some of them might want to storm the upper planes, by and large there is carnage a plenty to be had far closer to home.

[Adverb]

Also, "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

On a related note, good, while in opposition to evil, doesn't need to "win." The problem with evil is that it tends to eat away at it's own self, engaging in a level of self-castration that is pretty impressive. And evil doesn't really care that this is the case. If "evil will always triumph," the bad news is that, without the destruction/corruption, evil doesn't have much going for it in terms of hobbies or purpose.

Which is why I often skew neutral with characters. Both good and evil often display some interestingly paradoxical behavior, even, and perhaps most, when in their most iconic forms. And the real fun seems to be to stand by, pop some popcorn, and try to stake out a bit of something that won't be totally annihilated in the crossfire.

[VoxRationis]

Then what kind of outsider is your favorite? Which planar conflict?
I'm kind of fond of Inevitable v. Formian myself.

[atemu1234]

We're mixing up theoretical and actualized infinity. In theory, the Abyss could produce an infinite number of mooks, as could the celestial existences. In actuality, it's stated that the Abyss (I assume the same for the heavens) produces mooks for specific purposes, even if they aren't always clear. Hence, there is some limitation, or it would simply pump out mooks like there's no tomorrow (which, there wouldn't be, at that point). The abyss and the heavens are simply concepts, that's all. They're both sentient, but ancient, unknowable consciences that follow rules and roles. Maybe it's a counterbalance system- the more powerful good becomes, more evil exists to combat it, and vice versa, and the same goes for law v. chaos. Also, back to theoretical and actualized infinity. They could both make infinite servants, but they simply don't. Why is unknown, but the fact is there's a reason the Material Plane isn't occupied territory, be it by good or evil. This means there's a theoretical limit, or that both armies grow in size in sync, preventing one from toppling the other.

[Phelix-Mu]

We're mixing up theoretical and actualized infinity. In theory, the Abyss could produce an infinite number of mooks, as could the celestial existences. In actuality, it's stated that the Abyss (I assume the same for the heavens) produces mooks for specific purposes, even if they aren't always clear. Hence, there is some limitation, or it would simply pump out mooks like there's no tomorrow (which, there wouldn't be, at that point). The abyss and the heavens are simply concepts, that's all. They're both sentient, but ancient, unknowable consciences that follow rules and roles. Maybe it's a counterbalance system- the more powerful good becomes, more evil exists to combat it, and vice versa, and the same goes for law v. chaos. Also, back to theoretical and actualized infinity. They could both make infinite servants, but they simply don't. Why is unknown, but the fact is there's a reason the Material Plane isn't occupied territory, be it by good or evil. This means there's a theoretical limit, or that both armies grow in size in sync, preventing one from toppling the other.

I don't know that there is an actual limit, though. The Abyss is big beyond measure, with room for untold hosts to just stand around. Then there is the deal with attrition; demons constantly slaughter each other, for sport, by design, and out of sheer mindless destructive impulse. So, there probably is an endless stream of demons. The reason they don't accumulate is down to the nature of that plane, so there is a functional limitation, but I wouldn't consider it absolute. If there arose a leader that could counteract the Blood War drafting that is all over the place and rally those demons that would fight in that endless war for some other cause, that would probably be an apocalypse scenario on par with the Elder Evils. Luckily, many of the strongest tanari are in favor of the endless war against order/devils, so such a leader would have quite the job accomplishing this usurpation.

I'd also like to point out that some forces of good probably do engage in relatively small (in Blood War terms) wars against fiends, probably on some of the border planes or the Outlands or some such. We don't hear about it because it's small peanuts in the cosmic scale of things, and because it's more of defensive backstopping by the forces of good, rather than the declaration of a crusade into the territory of evil. I would view such conflict as just a natural part of so many outsiders with such principled views, that occasional fights erupt from the most ardent of them deciding to take it to the other side for a change. I imagine both the forces of good and the forces of evil tolerate such pressure-relieving fights, as long as their scale and repercussions are carefully limited. The general stance on the outer planes, though, is one of maintaining status quo. Things change, but eternity looks immobile compared to the time scale of mortals, and so massive wars (and war is innately a device of change...it takes phenomenal effort by the devils to maintain both the war and the status quo) would be quite rare relative to how often such paroxysms seize the races of the Prime.

[Necroticplague]

On a related note, good, while in opposition to evil, doesn't need to "win." The problem with evil is that it tends to eat away at it's own self, engaging in a level of self-castration that is pretty impressive. And evil doesn't really care that this is the case. If "evil will always triumph," the bad news is that, without the destruction/corruption, evil doesn't have much going for it in terms of hobbies or purpose.

Which is why I often skew neutral with characters. Both good and evil often display some interestingly paradoxical behavior, even, and perhaps most, when in their most iconic forms. And the real fun seems to be to stand by, pop some popcorn, and try to stake out a bit of something that won't be totally annihilated in the crossfire.

Actually, this brings up an interesting point: the extremes of any alignment is self-destructuve, at least in the end. Pure good would require complete altruism, ending in destruction of self. Pure evil will simply consume all else around it until nothing is left but to sit dying as the king of nothing and nobody. Pure law results in nothing really living any more, merely moving on pre-prepped rails until the end. And pure chaos, freedom without goal, merely results in random actions that inevitably lead to its own demise.

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, this brings up an interesting point: the extremes of any alignment is self-destructuve, at least in the end. Pure good would require complete altruism, ending in destruction of self. Pure evil will simply consume all else around it until nothing is left but to sit dying as the king of nothing and nobody. Pure law results in nothing really living any more, merely moving on pre-prepped rails until the end. And pure chaos, freedom without goal, merely results in random actions that inevitably lead to its own demise.

I think it's more accurate to say that the extremes of any alignment are self-destructive when teamed with a lack of reason, self-control, moderation, or self-preservation. While some of these traits are often seen as virtues or principles which only the good and the lawful can espouse in-alignment, I'd disagree. Evil is only lacking in reason among individuals that lack reason; as an abstract force, it is neither in favor of or against that thing. Likewise for good and law and chaos. Abstract forces, being abstract, operate on a scale that usually ignores the traits or principles of a given being of that alignment. Thus, an evil being can be rational and avoid having his own corruption devour him from the inside out (though that may take some effort). Such an individual balances out the other guy that devolves into useless insane ravings and self-destructive behavior through heights of depravity. Overall, evil exists beyond the scope of either individual; "Evil" versus "evil," if you will.

In the end, I think, there is ground to stand on at the poles of the alignments, but it's ground where a person's individual essence, themselves as a person, is generally in great jeopardy. Thus, the outsiders that live at these poles are increasingly caricatured, and even have a tendency to marginalize themselves (at least in the grand scheme of things...evil as a force is a much, much bigger thing than, say, Orcus), and most mortals are generally straying in the balance direction for at least many of their general behaviors (like the good person that doesn't take up arms at a tale of distant people suffering in a distant land).

Personally, I think there is ground for the militant balance people to stand on, as well. Extremists of any stripe are generally in favor of the thing they are in favor of above and beyond their own existence, or that of anyone else. Those alignment principles are non-pragmatic abstractions that threaten the way things are, when divorced from limiting factors like reason, self-preservation, and purpose. Thus, it's important that someone stand in the middle and stop the corners from pulling the tapestry to ribbons, such people would say.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Are they? You don't see demons mounting a lot of attacks into the upper planes, and quite possibly that's because they can't - they would get curbstomped if they even tried. Conversely, you don't see the celestials invading hell or the abyss, because it would be a long bloody fight that they're unwilling to sacrifice that many souls to, and also I wouldn't be surprised if hell has some "mutually assured destruction" type stuff held in reserve to prevent exactly that.

...Uh...demons do actually, it's just that generally they have other priorities. They have rival demon lords trying to take their power, they have Baatorian legions just waiting for the chance to invade, and they have the forces of Good invading as well (yes, that DOES happen). Even despite all that, every now and then a demon lord gets it into their head to invade one of the Upper Planes and then they do it. Until Good either manages to beat them back or hold out long enough that the offensive essentially devours itself to the point it can be crushed.

And Hell is a nut no one has managed to crack yet, I don't think any invasion has ever made it past the first layer, hence why Hell has the time for all those politics. More importantly, it doesn't get easier to invade hell if you get past the first layer, it actually gets even harder.


The forces of Good generally do not want to invade or wipe out Hell.

The Devils are the same formerly Lawful Good beings who were assigned to hold the Abyss in check countless aeons earlier, who over time were corrupted by the assignment. Nevertheless, they are still dutifully performing the task to which they were assigned. Whether he will acknowledge it or not, Asmodeus is still bound by this duty - the Blood War is the result.

It should come as no surprise that Good would lose if Evil stopped fighting itself. Evil fights itself because Lawful Evil is still doing the task it was assigned by its Good masters long ago. Hell was once the Armies of the Upper Planes. For them to team up with the Demons would be a betrayal for which the Upper Planes would be unprepared.

Asmodeus is not bound to any duty actually, he was put in charge of holding the Abyss in check but when he was cast out that deal was broken. He very much intends to invade the upper planes after forming an alliance with the demons and has actually been working on that plan for quite some time, he's even ahead of schedule for completing it. Asmodeus fully intends on brokering a temporary (come on, they're frickin' demons, they couldn't make it permanent even if they wanted to) cease-fire with the demons to launch an apocalyptic attack on the Upper planes because he knows if the Blood War was to pause then he could wipe out those pesky good outsiders and permanently skew the multiverse towards evil and set to work on actually eliminating/suppressing the demons so that he is all that is and the sole sovereign of the multiverse.

Hell, he only keeps the battle going against the demons right now to keep them in check, because it's what others expect of devils, they're too unruly to rule and will need to be eliminated eventually, and because they challenge him as being the true face of evil/the concept of evil.

Good is embattled for a few very good reasons that afrofuma mentioned but also because they aren't proactive because they don't produce celestials as fast as the Hells and Abyss, their battleground is on the material plane because part of the reason devils and demons outnumber them so badly is because both sides use mortal souls to grossly inflate their numbers. The primary method they gain those souls is via evil people dying so they work to spread the cause of Good rather then it's actual reach. That, and there's more evil things in the multiverse then jsut devils and demons, celestials have to keep those in check as well.