Egoist or Shaper?

[Invader]

Given the choice between egoist and shaper which would you chose with the caveats that you cant use either metamorphosis or astral construct.

[chronomatophobe]

Also assuming you can't use "minor creation" to make enough poison to kill the world every few minutes?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warforged Shaper.
Psionic Minor Creation to cover yourself in Black Lotus Extract.
Psionic Repair Damage on yourself, and share it with your psicrystal.
Share Pain on your psicrystal, hence the need for Psionic Repair Damage.
Bluff, Disguise, and especially Use Psionic Device > Autohypnosis, Balance, and Heal.
Later on you can pick your favorite Egoist powers with Expanded Knowledge anyway.

[chaos_redefined]

Considering I lose access to my favourite power (Astral Construct).... Telepath?

[Invader]

Yes also assuming no poison shenanigans.

[Invader]

Also am I understanding correctly that you can only learn powers from your chosen discipline short of expanded knowledge?

[chronomatophobe]

Also am I understanding correctly that you can only learn powers from your chosen discipline short of expanded knowledge?

No. You can learn any psion/wilder powers from the psion/wilder list (assuming you're a high enough level). You can also learn appropriate powers from your discipline list, but you can't learn any powers from any OTHER discipline lists or any other manifesting classes lists without expanded knowledge.

And assuming that shenanigans will be kept to a minimum, I'd probably go with Egoist still. Dat psi-gish.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't really understand the no-astral-construct stipulation. Metamorphosis is just as game-changing and bannable as Polymorph, but Astral Construct isn't any better than the standard Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spells. It's actually weaker after the Complete Psionic nerf, though Personal Construct helps make up for that if you're willing to sacrifice versatility.

[Invader]

No. You can learn any psion/wilder powers theom the psion/wilder list (assuming you're a high enough level). You can also learn appropriate powers from your discipline list, but you can't learn any powers from any OTHER discipline lists or any other manifesting classes lists without expanded knowledge.

And assuming that shenanigans will be kept to a minimum, I'd probably go with Egoist still. Dat psi-gish.

Ok is that something that was updated because at the moment I only have the Psionics Handbook which I know is 3.0 and has undergone some changes.

I'm assuming there are now general psionic powers as well as specific discipline powers.

[Invader]

I don't really understand use e no-astral-construct stipulation. Metamorphosis is just a spo changing and bannable as Polymorph without it istral Construct isn't any better than the standard Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spells. It's actually weaker after the Complete Psionic nerf, though Personal Construct helps make up for that if you're willing to sacrifice versatility.

It's actually just because I personally wouldn't really use it that much. I know its generally viewed as one of the better powers so I'm trying to get opinions without it in play.

[chronomatophobe]

I have no experience with 3.0 psionics, so i guess I can't really comment further. But yeah, there's a general psion/wilder list and each discipline has a specific list. You can find everything at d20srd.org if you're interested.

[Urpriest]

Ok is that something that was updated because at the moment I only have the Psionics Handbook which I know is 3.0 and has undergone some changes.

I'm assuming there are now general psionic powers as well as specific discipline powers.

Yeah, given that 3.5 Psionics are on d20srd.org, you should just ignore that book and use what's on the SRD instead.

[Invader]

I have no experience with 3.0 psionics, so i guess I can't really comment further. But yeah, there's a general psion/wilder list and each discipline has a specific list. You can find everything at d20srd.org if you're interested.

Yeah I've been all over it, It was just hard formulating an opinion on all the powers in that format.

[Flickerdart]

Ok is that something that was updated because at the moment I only have the Psionics Handbook which I know is 3.0 and has undergone some changes.

I'm assuming there are now general psionic powers as well as specific discipline powers.
Each discipline has a list of ~2 powers per level that is exclusive to it. All other powers still fall under a discipline, but can be learned by anyone.

I wouldn't get rid of that 3.0 handbook just yet, though. The Soulknife in that book is so much better than the horrible abortion of a class that ended up in 3.5, so you will probably want to keep it.

[Rubik]

I don't care much for the egoist. The discipline list only has about 4 powers I care about (Metamorphosis, Psionic Revivify, Fission, and Fusion), and the skill list is meh. Autohypnosis is pretty nifty, but the DCs are largely fixed, so you can generally get by with a couple of ranks and a bunch of bonuses. Shaper, however, has some solid skill additions (Bluff, Disguise, and UPD are all awesome, especially since the latter lets you use any power stone from any discipline you want), and at least one must-have power every single level on its list. (Aside from level 2. Maybe. And if you're a warforged, even PRD is great.)

Metamorphosis is THE signature power for egoists, but it comes online at level 7! At least wizards have access to Alter Self in the early levels, but egoists don't have anything going for them until then. And you can nab that with a feat.

I just don't see any reason to take egoist over half the other psionic disciplines unless you absolutely must have Metamorphosis by level 7 for whatever reason, and you can't gain access to it in some other way (such as Psychic Chirurgery, Don/Tap Mantle, or Mantled Erudite or something).

[Invader]

So really picking a discipline is of less importance now than it was in 3.0 especially if I'm not concerned with the 2 aforementioned powers.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, so, comparing the two classes without taking Astral Construct, Minor Creation or Metamorphosis into account...

SKILL LIST:
Egoist gets Autohypnosis, Balance and Heal. Shaper gets Bluff, Disguise and Use Psionic Device. Both are handy in their own ways, but I'd definitely give the nod to the shaper.

POWERS:
1- Egoist gets Thicken Skin, shaper gets.... nothing, if you take away their two first level powers. Thicken Skin is pretty mediocre, honestly, but I guess having the option is better than not having it, so this one's a win for the egoist.

2- Egoist gets Animal Affinity, Chameleon, Delay Poison and Empathic Transfer. Most of these are strictly so-so, but I quite like Empathic Transfer. Shapers get Psionic Repair Damage. Unless you're a warforged, this level is a clear win for the egoist.

3- Egoist gets Ectoplasmic Form and Hustle. Ecto Form is only really worth it for specialized builds, but Hustle is straight-up one of the most useful powers you can pick - if you're not an egoist, you're picking this one up with via Expanded Knowledge. (However, EK can actually get it at a lower level than the egoist by pulling it from the Psychic Warrior list.) Shaper gets Greater Concealing Amorpha and Ectoplasmic Cocoon. Those are both very good powers, including a fantastic buff and debuff. It's tough to pick here - you'll want Hustle either way, but you can get it anyhow via EK. I'll call this level a draw, but I could see an argument for the egoist.

4- Egoist gets Psychic Vampire. Meh. Shaper has a few nice options - Burrowing Bonds, Psionic Fabricate and Quintessence. Those are all nice in their own ways, and while they're not the must-haves that some other levels provide, I'd say this one goes to the shaper.

5- Egoists get Combat Transformation, Psionic Revivify, Psychofeedback and Restore Extremity. Combat Transformation actually isn't terrible, and Psionic Revivify is definitely handy. Shapers get Hail of Crystals, which was great - but it was nerfed by Complete Psionic. It's still not bad, but it doesn't match the utility granted by the egoist options.

6- Egoists get Psionic Restoration - handy, but dang does it hurt to come so late. Shapers get Greater Psionic Fabricate (a nice bump from the previous version if making stuff is your bag), and Crystallize, which isn't too shabby. Honestly, neither of these are must-haves, and there are probably better options from the general list for this level, but I guess I'll still give the nod to the shaper, unless your party doesn't have any other way of dealing with level drain.

7- Egoists get the incomparable Fission. Shapers get the encounter-ending Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon. This one's tough - Fission is so darn cool, but in an actual game, I'd much prefer Mass Ecto Cocoon. I'm giving this one to the shaper, unless you're working on a TO build or have something specific in mind for Fission (or are playing a build that can infinitely refresh power points, in which case being able to use Fission to go nova every encounter is pretty brutal).

8- Egoists get Fusion, which has incredible potential for abuse. Shapers get Astral Seed which, um, lets you live forever. They're both really powerful options that kind of require a lot of work to make them function properly. Astral Seed is the kind of thing you only ever need to use once, though, so it's kind of a waste to have it as a power known. I guess I'll call this one a draw - Astral Seed is one of those essential powers any psion should get access to and manifest at least once, while Fusion has a lot of potential but also requires a lot of work.

9- I'm guessing the ban on Metamorphosis and Minor Creation also covers the greater versions? In that case, the egoist gets nothing. The shaper, on the other hand, loses True Creation but hangs on to Genesis, meaning they'll be making their own demiplanes. That means the shaper wins by default, but if you have access to all powers, I'd give this one to the egoist instead. Greater Metamorphosis is THAT good.

[Phelix-Mu]

...snip...

A piercing and fairly exhaustive analysis. Props.

My vote is shaper. Even without the coolness of astral construct (which is quite different in 3.5, especially post-Complete Psionics), there is a lot there to use, especially with the web enhancement PrCs. In fact, I think there may only be one psionic PrC that is focused on egoist-type stuff (unless you count similarly-themed PsyWar PrC, which would be difficult to get into as an egoist).

Anyway, certainly, for out of combat utility, shaper wins hands down. Greater fabricate is an awesome thing, and while losing the creation line hurts, it's not a deal breaker.

[Psyren]

Without metamorphosis I see no real reason to be an egoist except to heal, so put me down for shaper. Of course, without astral construct either I'd probably shun them both.

[Invader]

OK, so, comparing the two classes without taking Astral Construct, Minor Creation or Metamorphosis into account...

SKILL LIST:
Egoist gets Autohypnosis, Balance and Heal. Shaper gets Bluff, Disguise and Use Psionic Device. Both are handy in their own ways, but I'd definitely give the nod to the shaper.

POWERS:
1- Egoist gets Thicken Skin, shaper gets.... nothing, if you take away their two first level powers. Thicken Skin is pretty mediocre, honestly, but I guess having the option is better than not having it, so this one's a win for the egoist.

2- Egoist gets Animal Affinity, Chameleon, Delay Poison and Empathic Transfer. Most of these are strictly so-so, but I quite like Empathic Transfer. Shapers get Psionic Repair Damage. Unless you're a warforged, this level is a clear win for the egoist.

3- Egoist gets Ectoplasmic Form and Hustle. Ecto Form is only really worth it for specialized builds, but Hustle is straight-up one of the most useful powers you can pick - if you're not an egoist, you're picking this one up with via Expanded Knowledge. (However, EK can actually get it at a lower level than the egoist by pulling it from the Psychic Warrior list.) Shaper gets Greater Concealing Amorpha and Ectoplasmic Cocoon. Those are both very good powers, including a fantastic buff and debuff. It's tough to pick here - you'll want Hustle either way, but you can get it anyhow via EK. I'll call this level a draw, but I could see an argument for the egoist.

4- Egoist gets Psychic Vampire. Meh. Shaper has a few nice options - Burrowing Bonds, Psionic Fabricate and Quintessence. Those are all nice in their own ways, and while they're not the must-haves that some other levels provide, I'd say this one goes to the shaper.

5- Egoists get Combat Transformation, Psionic Revivify, Psychofeedback and Restore Extremity. Combat Transformation actually isn't terrible, and Psionic Revivify is definitely handy. Shapers get Hail of Crystals, which was great - but it was nerfed by Complete Psionic. It's still not bad, but it doesn't match the utility granted by the egoist options.

6- Egoists get Psionic Restoration - handy, but dang does it hurt to come so late. Shapers get Greater Psionic Fabricate (a nice bump from the previous version if making stuff is your bag), and Crystallize, which isn't too shabby. Honestly, neither of these are must-haves, and there are probably better options from the general list for this level, but I guess I'll still give the nod to the shaper, unless your party doesn't have any other way of dealing with level drain.

7- Egoists get the incomparable Fission. Shapers get the encounter-ending Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon. This one's tough - Fission is so darn cool, but in an actual game, I'd much prefer Mass Ecto Cocoon. I'm giving this one to the shaper, unless you're working on a TO build or have something specific in mind for Fission (or are playing a build that can infinitely refresh power points, in which case being able to use Fission to go nova every encounter is pretty brutal).

8- Egoists get Fusion, which has incredible potential for abuse. Shapers get Astral Seed which, um, lets you live forever. They're both really powerful options that kind of require a lot of work to make them function properly. Astral Seed is the kind of thing you only ever need to use once, though, so it's kind of a waste to have it as a power known. I guess I'll call this one a draw - Astral Seed is one of those essential powers any psion should get access to and manifest at least once, while Fusion has a lot of potential but also requires a lot of work.

9- I'm guessing the ban on Metamorphosis and Minor Creation also covers the greater versions? In that case, the egoist gets nothing. The shaper, on the other hand, loses True Creation but hangs on to Genesis, meaning they'll be making their own demiplanes. That means the shaper wins by default, but if you have access to all powers, I'd give this one to the egoist instead. Greater Metamorphosis is THAT good.

This was exceptionally helpful, thank you. :smallsmile:

[Nihilarian]

What's Combat Transformation?

[Piggy Knowles]

What's Combat Transformation?

It's a Mind's Eye power, found here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827e). Basically, it's an augmentable Mordenkainen's Transformation. In my opinion, it's way better for a psion than it is for a wizard, thanks primarily to Linked Power's ability to let you manifest powers ahead of schedule that will take effect after you transform.

EDIT: Except that I seem to have mistakenly placed it at level 5. From looking at that again, it's actually level 6, which is less fun, as level 6 powers have stiff competition.

[Invader]

With the whole magic psionic transparency, if a power allows for a power resistance does having spell resistance count or does the target specifically have to have psionic resistance to get a save?

[Piggy Knowles]

With transparency, PR applies to spells and SR applies to powers.

[Nihilarian]

It's a Mind's Eye power, found here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827e). Basically, it's an augmentable Mordenkainen's Transformation. In my opinion, it's way better for a psion than it is for a wizard, thanks primarily to Linked Power's ability to let you manifest powers ahead of schedule that will take effect after you transform.

EDIT: Except that I seem to have mistakenly placed it at level 5. From looking at that again, it's actually level 6, which is less fun, as level 6 powers have stiff competition.Hmmm. The BAB increase is nice, but if you're casting Combat Transformation you're probably a Gish and already have an enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution, at least. The augment seems fairly weak for what it gives and it prevents you from manifesting powers. I'd skip it, honestly.

[Rubik]

Hmmm. The BAB increase is nice, but if you're casting Combat Transformation you're probably a Gish and already have an enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution, at least. The augment seems fairly weak for what it gives and it prevents you from manifesting powers. I'd skip it, honestly.Since BAB = Character Level, this is a great power to pick up during epic, since BAB stacks with EAB (Epic Attack Bonus), and there's no cap. So you're a 40th level character? You gain +40 BAB, and it totally stacks with your +10 EAB.

The same can be done with Divine Power.

Also, make sure you either use Unconditional Power to potentially bypass the "no manifesting" clause, or manifest it on your psicrystal, who is using the Control Body power on you.

[Invader]

With transparency, PR applies to spells and SR applies to powers.

I've seen conversations talking about transparency but is this a hard rule or is there some contention about it?

[Psyren]

I've seen conversations talking about transparency but is this a hard rule or is there some contention about it?

It's the default rule, especially for settings that use psionics. You can remove or alter it, but that is a variant rule.

[Rubik]

I've seen conversations talking about transparency but is this a hard rule or is there some contention about it?A lot of people seem to think that non-transparency (ie, psionics and magic are different) is the default, but it's not. It's caused a lot of confusion since the release of the XPH, especially in the beginning. It's one of the reasons why we had so many arguments over psionics being broken in the beginning (along with the fact that those same people seemed to overlook the cardinal rule stating that you can't spend more power points on one manifestation than your manifester level).