(3.5) Alternatives to XP

[theoneorange]

I am getting tired of players competing with each other for experience and I am tired of doing lots of math to calculate experience on each encounter. What are some alternatives to using XP to calculate level?

[Larkas]

Eh, just make everyone level up together when you want them to? :smallconfused:

[jjcrpntr]

Our group stopped doing individual xp because it's a pain. It also led to people arguing over who gets extra xp because they used calm animal to avoid a fight while the rest of us just got ready to fight or some other crap.

We still get xp because some of us are looking into crafting stuff or scribing scrolls in the future.

[docnessuno]

Eh, just make everyone level up together when you want them to? :smallconfused:

The problem is that it doesn't mesh well with several things, such as:

Level drain.
Spending XP to craft.
Spells with XP components.
Class features demending the use of XP (there are a few around).

[theoneorange]

How well would having everyone level up depending on the amount of sessions they have played. For example a level 5 character would need 5 sessions to level up. Could that work?

[docnessuno]

How well would having everyone level up depending on the amount of sessions they have played. For example a level 5 character would need 5 sessions to level up. Could that work?

It would be incredibly fast in the first few levels and incredibly slow in the last ones.

While fighting the same number of CR-appropriate encounters, the number of sessions a character needs to level up is somewhat constant thought his career.

If you want to go that route, i would suggest a session giving between 1/3 and 1/8 of the XP needed to level up, depending on the pace you want your game to have (my personal sweet spot is a level every 4/5 sessions).

[TuggyNE]

I am getting tired of players competing with each other for experience

It may be useful for us to know how they are competing; normally, XP is calculated very cooperatively, such that if a Rogue disarms a trap, all benefit. There may be some easier method of eliminating this particular flaw than eliminating all XP.


and I am tired of doing lots of math to calculate experience on each encounter.

The heavy lifting of math (along with a certain amount of very rough planning) can fairly efficiently be handled by e.g. the Hypertext d20 SRD's encounter calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/). Is that enough to help?

[hemming]

One level each session would accelerate the game vastly - 20 sessions to level 20! I think it took my party approximately 20 sessions to get to level 10. But if that is not an issue for you, then go with it

Someone recently posted a method in another thread of giving the party a single pool of XP - everyone levels at the same time and using XP for tasks like crafting a magical item becomes a team decision (team resource)

Never tried it myself

[Yerltvachovicic]

In Pathfinder Society Play standard is to level all players every 3 sessions/scenarios, maybe steal that rule?

[theoneorange]

I like most of these ideas, hopefully I will get to try them all out in future games.

[Larkas]

The problem is that it doesn't mesh well with several things, such as:

Level drain.
Spending XP to craft.
Spells with XP components.
Class features demending the use of XP (there are a few around).


You can always substitute XP for GP a la Pathfinder. How to deal with level drain without using PF's changes too, however, is something I haven't considered.

[pwykersotz]

The problem is that it doesn't mesh well with several things, such as:

Level drain.
Spending XP to craft.
Spells with XP components.
Class features demending the use of XP (there are a few around).


Level drain actually becomes simpler.
XP for crafting can be multiplied by 5 and added to gold cost.
XP for components can require a material component worth 5x the XP.
Class features would have to be case by case.

This and an earlier thread have gotten me thinking about this same thing. It's a big change though.

[Story]

One level each session would accelerate the game vastly - 20 sessions to level 20! I think it took my party approximately 20 sessions to get to level 10. But if that is not an issue for you, then go with it


In the last campaign I was in, we effectively leveled every session due to the high amounts of experience we earned in game (initially because of DM math errors, later on because we were fighting CR+5-7 opponents).

I think it works well if you don't expect the campaign to last that long. Everyone gets cool stuff to look forward to each week. As it was, we still only made it from level 4 to 12 before it ended.

[NichG]

For your specific problems, some ideas:

Rule 1: Everyone gets the same amount of XP no matter what. If you're a level behind somehow or a level ahead or have an Item Familiar or twenty classes it doesn't matter - same XP across the board.

Rule 2: XP is handed out per 'episode', which is an imaginary boundary between disconnected events that exists solely in the DM's mind. Each episode gets a fixed amount of XP associated with it - kill nothing or kill everything, take three sessions or one session to complete it, the amount of XP the party gains doesn't change.

Rule 3: You have a separate pool of 'expense XP', whose size is 10% of your total XP. XP spell components and XP for crafting comes out of this pool. You cannot spend below zero or convert regular XP to this or anything like that; the only way to increase it is to get more regular XP.

Rule 4: Permanent level drain does not change your XP total in any way, it just causes you to suffer persistent 'negative levels'. However, Greater Restoration and Miracle can remove all forms of it, even the permanent level drain from Raise Dead and the like.

Rule 5: Acquired templates do not change your XP total in any way (why would they?!), they simply delay the point at which you would next gain new class levels.

Rule 6: XP cannot be transferred, refunded, converted, or the like. I'm looking at you Thought Bottle.

That should cover pretty much all the ways I'm aware of to attempt to 'game' XP income, so at this point XP just becomes a concrete marker for progress.

[Water Bob]

I am getting tired of players competing with each other for experience and I am tired of doing lots of math to calculate experience on each encounter. What are some alternatives to using XP to calculate level?

In the Conan RPG, which is based on 3.5, XP is totally in the realm of the Game Master. It's totally arbitrary--his decision. Advice in the Conan Core Rulebook is to award XP for story based reasons--not for anything else. Not for treasure. Not for killing things. Not for using skills.

Therefore, when story goals are obtained, then XP is awarded.

It doesn't matter what they've fought. It matters if goals are obtained.

Thus, the PCs might get an amount of XP if they defeat the evil mage--it doesn't matter how the mage was defeated. If they do it with roleplaying or with fighting, the XP award is the same.

[XmonkTad]

Doesn't Unearthed Arcana have "Crafting Reserve" rules? That might help for some of it.

[ericgrau]

The problem is that it doesn't mesh well with several things, such as:

Level drain.
Spending XP to craft.
Spells with XP components.
Class features demending the use of XP (there are a few around).

1. Catches up fully in 4 levels by the normal xp system. But he should be caught up part of the time right away, so to make it fit the average nicer say he catches up in 2 levels instead. Someone who is 2 levels behind should regain a lost level twice as fast. And so on for 3 levels, but the DMG recommends against letting someone get more than 2 levels behind.
2. Surprisingly tiny. Usually I'd just ignore it and let it slide. If someone crafts like crazy, as in thousands of xp, then give him -1 level and see #1. If he continues to craft like crazy then just keep him 1 level behind instead of catching up. Effectively it's like he's constantly crafting using the bonus xp. The bonus xp is equal to level x 250 each level (cumulative, so 250+500+750+1000+1250, etc.). Plus when he first starts to craft he can burn up to level x 1000 (not cumulative).
3. See #2.
4. See #2.

[Norfire]

Eh, just make everyone level up together when you want them to? :smallconfused:

I second this and say level them all when you feel they earned it.
As for experience in craft and spells I always tell my players it costs some soul. Doesn't have to be their soul though.
You can create your own substitutions though. Such as temporary level drain, added cost, whatever you think of.

[WeaselGuy]

The way my wife is about to run her first campaign, at 1 session averaging 3-6 hours per session per week, is just at the end of the night, we level up, and it gives us a full week to square our sheets away before the next session.

[Cruiser1]

For your specific problems, some ideas:

Rule 1: Everyone gets the same amount of XP no matter what. If you're a level behind somehow or a level ahead or have an Item Familiar or twenty classes it doesn't matter - same XP across the board.

Rule 4: Permanent level drain does not change your XP total in any way, it just causes you to suffer persistent 'negative levels'. However, Greater Restoration and Miracle can remove all forms of it, even the permanent level drain from Raise Dead and the like.
An extension of these two ideas, in which the party has "linked XP" and always has the same XP total (even after character death) is described at: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258335

[Deaxsa]

The problem is that it doesn't mesh well with several things, such as:

Level drain.
Spending XP to craft.
Spells with XP components.
Class features demending the use of XP (there are a few around).


I counter these by:
*avoiding level drain, swapping level for stat drain(con and cha in particular), and simplifying the drain (-1 to all rolls or something along those lines)
*Banning crafting
*ignoring XP components, substituing RP components
*haven't run into this yet

[broodax]

I simply tell my players when to level, and have adopted Pathfinders GP for XP replacement and mechanics for level drain and restoration. Both I and my players could not be happier with either choice.

[VoxRationis]

If I've interpreted it correctly (the wording is a little odd), the last printing of AD&D had you gain XP for crafting items, which made sense, given that they also had crafting be an adventure in and of itself. Every item required unusual components and a labyrinthine in-game procedure to do the enchanting. An interesting change from the game as is, where all those magic-item crafting background wizards must be level grinding somewhere but the campaigns don't show it... It also justifies low-magic campaigns a lot more, or campaigns where magic items are relics of the past rather than current-production items.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Level drain.
Replace with negative levels. (As a bonus, it's simpler)


Spending XP to craft.
Spells with XP components.

Pathfinder's gold-only crafting, and replace XP components with gold. Or else give everyone a flat xp reserve-- say, level*50 experience per session-- to spend on crafting and spells and such.

Class features demending the use of XP (there are a few around).
Make them per-week or something.

[pwykersotz]

I am getting tired of players competing with each other for experience and I am tired of doing lots of math to calculate experience on each encounter. What are some alternatives to using XP to calculate level?

Interestingly, I've never had fights for exp. I give the same amount to all party members at the end of game, and I aim for about 1/5-1/4 of what it takes to advance in level. They all get judged by how the team did. It solves both problems without changing exp. Still, alternate methods ARE nifty.

[VoxRationis]

Yeah, I dole out XP equally for each encounter, according to who was in the encounter, even if they weren't doing too much. The only way people get more XP is if they do stuff off on their own, and my players generally don't feel safe going off on their own, probably from experience with my DMing style.

[Urpriest]

You've got the same number of players each encounter because 3.5 is really hard to balance to a shifting party size, and you know in advance who they are. I feel like doing an extra line of arithmetic for every encounter you stat out to figure out XP totals ahead of time shouldn't be all that onerous, unless you're accidentally doing something unnecessary.