Stuck on 16-20. . . Thoughts?

[Thuphinlok]

So I am playing a 1-25 game, and I am stuck on a few levels (specifically 16-20). My current build is 1/2 elf Monk (yea I know)15 / Dragon Descendant 5 / Swordsage 5. The elf must stay, Monk must stay and the Swordsage must stay due to a specific character concept. I am not looking for complete and total optimization here, just a few thoughts from other people who have possibly had more experience hodge podging classes together.

Feats

1 - Improve Grapple
Monk 1 - Stunning Fist
Monk 2 - Deflect Arrows
Bloodline 2 - Combat Reflexes
3 - Scorpions Grasp
6 - Imp Natural Atk
Monk 6 - Improved Trip
9 - Ability Focus (stunning Fist/Rattlesnake)
12 - Imp Init
Bloodline 14 - Blind Fight
15 - Rattlesnake Strike
18 -
21 -
24 - Vital Recovery

Bloodline
1. Intimidate +2
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Cha +1
4. Fire res 5
5. Affin to all Neutral dragons (Religion is a custom Neutral Goddess with Dragon Domain) +2
6. Nat arm +1
7. Sense +2
8. Fire res 10
9. Cha +1
10. breath weapon (pot cloud)/Line of Fire
11. dragon affin +4
12. nat arm +1
13. tumble +2
14. blind fight (pending)
15. Wis +1
16. Calm emotions 1/day
17. dragon affin +6
18. nat arm +1
19. Diplomacy +2
20. Sprout Wings 1/day for CON mod minutes (30' + monk enhancement/avg) (pending)


Does anyone have any thoughts? Should I rethink some of my feats? Bloodline is custom so it is maleable as long as it isn't too crazy (consider us about Low/Mid-op). Currently we are Lvl 5 (Monk 4/Bloodline 1), so I am 1 lvl behind everyone else for the moment, although I am about to lvl again.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Fist of Zuoken. (Psionic Fist on the SRD)

Continues some of your Monk abilities, and gives you access to Psiwar powers.

On top of that, you have your choice of either using (for the cost of a feat or three) extra damage dice from Psionic Fist, or Unavoidable Strike for a touch attack.

For a Monk, the cost of getting into the class is a Feat and some skill points.

[Rubik]

I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy your character more with much less monk. As in, 13 levels' less monk. There's virtually nothing that monk can do that another class can't do better, without the slightest change in concept (unless "incompetent" is your concept). Replace those levels with Tashalatora and psychic warrior or ardent or a manifesting PrC, such as war mind or fist of Zuoken.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Far be it from me to argue with a cube, but I think he's going for a theme here. His post did say 'Monk's gotta stay'.

The Monk might not be mechanically that good, but I can attest that it is pretty fun. Moreso with access to Swordsage. Wish ToB had been out when I was in my 'Monk' phase.

[Rubik]

{Scrubbed}

[ericgrau]

Well that took all of 2 posts. There are plenty of feats to look at.

A round is a very long time in D&D, so I'd say rattlesnake strike is worse than a stun. I'm a fan of TWF kama tripping myself. You can still mix in a stunning knee/kick/whatever every round. It goes very well with greater flurry too. Especially since trips are touch attacks so number of attacks translates much better into hits in spite of the penalty.

If you pick up psiwar powers than expansion is superb for both crazy trip and grapple checks. As is grip of iron for grappling. Your improved natural attack goes well with grappling too, since it translates into grapple damage. But you'll leave yourself vulnerable to large numbers of foes. That's where trip spamming will be handy as a backup tactic to your primary focus of grappling. And the one way for monsters to reliably get around it at high level without foreknowledge adds 40,000 gp to the party loot every time, so "worst" (best?) case scenario is crazy bonus treasure (and then you trip too).

[Averis Vol]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I'm not sure it really matters. He said he wanted the monk, so he wants the monk. It's as simple as that; sometimes its just best to respect peoples wishes.

As to the OP. What do you want to do with this character? because that will influence a lot of our responses. with that many levels of monk, I would say focusing into stunning fist might not be a bad idea. Go with freezing the lifeblood and pharaohs fist and you can make a semi battlefield controller, pair that with trip and you can do fairly successfully if you pick up some defensive items and maybe knockdown to proc those stuns. Use a pair of scorpion kamas, some ki straps and a monks belt to name a couple specifics.

Alternatively, if you want to go with a more damage oriented build, you could do something like Barbarian 1/chaos monk 15/ shou desciple 5/ Swordsage 4. Equally, you could drop a single level of monk and bump swordsage to your preference. pick up pounce, invisible fist (which you should take regardless) leap attack and power attack and then just go straight ham with a flurry of greatsword strikes. theres a few general builds, so when you post what exactly you're looking to do, I can give more specifics.

[Tohsaka Rin]

A few levels of Pyrokinetic could be decent, too.

Hand Aflame and Weapon Aflame stack, so long as you're willing to give up the touch attack of Hand Aflame. (Since unarmed strike is a weapon, after all.)

[Thuphinlok]

Thanks for the feedback (mostly) guys. As for what I am looking to do with this guy. . . I haven't really established him in a traditional role in the party (Human Rogue/wizard, 1/2 elf Bard/Rogue/Swashbuckler, Dwarf Fighter, Gargoyle Fighter, and me) He is kind of a support role out of combat, helping the other characters with recon and providing a small sense of morality to the group (all CN). Currently in combat he has been doing a lot of grappling, and front line support. RP wise he is a protector of the little guy, and he is completely devoted to his Goddess.


Fist of Zuoken. (Psionic Fist on the SRD)

A few levels of Pyrokinetic could be decent, too.

Tohsaka - Both of these are great classes, but I am unfortunately one of the only people in my group that wants to play Psionics so they are out.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Rubik - I'm pretty sure that you don't like Monks. That being said, I do, and while I respect your opinion (and I think that your proposed 'rebuild' is quite superior to mine tier/optimization wise), I have to STRONGLY disagree with your assessment that I won't have fun with my character because I didn't build him "the right way". This character concept was conceived before I had ever even seen a D&D book, and I am going to play him as I envisioned him. I think you would be more well received in the future to not immediately bash someone else's character concepts. The main point of this RPG (Role Playing Game) is to ROLE PLAY, not just beat things into the ground. The most optimized Wizard can fall to a lowly Fighter if the players handle certain situations differently. . . IMHO

ericgrau & Averis Vol - Those are good ideas. I think I will be picking up some other 'stunning' things. Maybe not so much with the tripping, because I feel that puts me at odds with the grappling, but the Freezing the Life's Blood, and Pharoahs Fist sound like they might be up my alley. Point of intrest, does Pharoah work with all the different versions of Stun?

[Rubik]

{Scrubbed}

[Hiro Protagonest]

The most optimized Wizard can fall to a lowly Fighter if the players handle certain situations differently. . . IMHO

There was something Tippy said about level 20 wizards and what mindset they have, but I don't know where to find it.

In any case, people more skilled than I can post a wizard build that can handle any situation (barring other Tier 1 classes or multiples of the most powerful Outsiders opposing them).

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't threadcrap. For example, if the thread starter says that use of the monk class is non-negotiable, particularly in a manner that suggests they understand your objection and remain committed to the premise, either accept that premise or don't post in the thread. Pointless negation of the purpose of the thread is just trollish.

[SciChronic]

If you could give us more information one what exact theme you're going for exactly, it would give us more context and help us point you toward more things.

Here's an unarmed skill monkey i conceived a few months ago, to give you an idea on what you can do. It utilizes Invisible Fist + Decisive Strike paired with sneak attacks to deal considerable damage, these variant features are for Monk 1&2, so you might have to talk to your DM about retraining the next time you are in a city.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjCgFIGwxLxxdEhoLVVwbENZMzRMYnFBU29qeVlBV 0E&usp=sharing

If you dont have a high enough int score, you can drop the swashbuckler levels and kung fu genius (its dragon mag anyway) along with not being a skillmonkey.

[Thuphinlok]

Sorry Rubik, I didn't mean to offend you, I was just stating my opinion as you did yours.

Jade, I didn't mean that a wizard can't cope with any and all situations, just that in a role playing game sometimes the player makes a bad call, and the character (no matter how optimized) suffers the consequences.

Back on topic, does anyone know of a more 'martially' oriented Cleric class? I don't really like the feel of Cleric for this character, and the Favored Soul seemed like a nice replacement. Are there others that I may have missed? What about ACF's? I think I want the devotion of the cleric/favored soul, but the feel of a warrior (and yes I realize that the cleric is kind of a warrior priest type schtick already :smalltongue:)

[SciChronic]

Sorry Rubik, I didn't mean to offend you, I was just stating my opinion as you did yours.

Jade, I didn't mean that a wizard can't cope with any and all situations, just that in a role playing game sometimes the player makes a bad call, and the character (no matter how optimized) suffers the consequences.

Back on topic, does anyone know of a more 'martially' oriented Cleric class? I don't really like the feel of Cleric for this character, and the Favored Soul seemed like a nice replacement. Are there others that I may have missed? What about ACF's? I think I want the devotion of the cleric/favored soul, but the feel of a warrior (and yes I realize that the cleric is kind of a warrior priest type schtick already :smalltongue:)

well there's paladin... but you already have monk levels in your character, so i'd stay away from making it even worse. You could flavor away the "non-martial" feel of the cleric. Make your deity have a war domain and focus on buffing rather than blasting/healing, its the better way to play cleric anyway.

[claypigeons]

If monk ACF are available, you might try to squeeze more out of the monk levels. For instance, you can get Improved Grapple from one of the Unearthed Arcana alternates. Invisible Fist is a nice variant. As is the one that lets you deal double damage instead of Flurry (flurry is sub par at best in most circumstances).

[Thuphinlok]

SciChronic - I think he is looking to become a secondary front liner if that makes any sense. We have a Dwarf fighter (eventually going Gate Crasher), and a Gargoyle Fighter (who designed the character specifically to absorb blows using a slightly altered Greenstar Adept build). So we have a pretty strong front line, and I am playing touch up for the most part. I like to be in the front, but I also like to breath, and so tend to move around so as not to make such an appetizing target for the baddies.

Item question - could one get a ring of Greater Mighty Wallop, and Divine Power (I think that is the right one, your BAB = ECL?) and if so what would the price tag be?

[SciChronic]

the build i posted was a melee person (its actually the highest damage dealing skill monkey i've ever made), using flanks for sneak attacks, so he would definitely be up in the front line, while it doesnt have a high max hp, it has an impressive AC due to a high wis(or int w/ kung fu genius) and dex. the invisible fist ACF is was keeps you from becoming a target, it give you invisibility as an immediate action, and not as the spell, so you can still attack.

for an example of its level 9 damage, using decisive strike+snap kick it deals 2d8*2+6d6*2+72... without using a weapon