New Factotum Builds: Let's See 'Em!

[Ziegander]

Okay, so from the other thread, I was arguing against how awesome the Factotum is so often perceived and railing against the fact that all I ever see are Dark/Necropolitan Whispergnome Factotums w/Iaijutsu Focus and Quickrazors using tricks and optimization that, at least in games I've been a part of, often wouldn't fly at the table.

So, that out of the way, I still would like to see some different builds. Factotum 8/Warblade 12 is a classic one that is easy to play and powerful. Other than that, you don't tend to see a lot of variety in Factotum builds. Is that because it's hard to build a working Factotum? That was my worry, but Piggy Knowles came through with a very original build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17201639&postcount=69) on the spot that helped to restore some of my faith in the class.

So what other builds are out there waiting to be seen? I hear Factotums can make good trippers, but I've never seen a build. Build me a tripper! Is there a way to make a combat Factotum that relies on Persistent buff spells (or at least effectively all day buffs like 8-12 hour durations)? That's a concept that appeals to me. If all sources, all optimization is allowed, what can be done with the Factotum that hasn't been done before? What about other builds operating under the limitations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17199386&postcount=56) I outlined in the other thread?

I haven't played much D&D in years, so my optimization skills are rusty at best. But I haven't lost any of my interest in the game. Maybe you guys can help jump start my engines and I will even contribute a build or two of my own.

[JaronK]

Well, there's always the questions of what your DM will allow. I like Archer Factotums as a thing... all you do is combine Manyshot with Cunning Surge to launch volleys of arrows. Use Knowledge Devotion to up your chance to hit and damage, and fill in with the usual archery feats. It's not fancy, but it works. If you want to kick it up a bunch, use Minor Creation to generate Sinmaker's Surprise, which is a vegetable matter based poison that's DC 24 for 2d6 Con/2d6 Con, and also adds in 3d6 acid damage over three rounds. One casting of the spell will last you the full day for plenty of poisoned arrows. Your DM may balk at this though.

There's also trip focused Factotums who dip a bit of Unarmed Swordsage (even two levels is plenty). Make good use of Mighty Throw as well as Shadow Jaunt, and you can be a pretty fun ninja that stabs people and flings them.

Now, with that said, the trick to Factotums isn't any one build... they're extremely flexible. Get creative with the spells. Not too creative... using Ghoul Glyph to instant kill any living creature with no save is kinda rude, but there you go. Remember, Sp abilities never take more than a standard action. There's tons you can do with that.

JaronK

[HammeredWharf]

Familiar-based Factotums can be effective. Take Imp. Familiar, get some ranks in UMD, use the chameleon PRC to get the bard spell that lets you take 10 on UMD checks, give your familiar a huge box of scrolls and go nuts. Low-level scrolls are pretty cheap and include great stuff like Glitterdust, various fogs and other minor, but situationally very useful spells. You have two standard actions yourself and the familiar has one, so you can cast three spells per round.

[Bloodgruve]

*Let's call it all sources 3.5 allowed, no PF. No 3.0 material allowed, no Whispergnomes, no Imperious Command, no Diplomacy abuse, and no Polymorph abuse. Oh, and no Item Familiar, either. For dips let's say no more than 6 levels in non-Factotum classes.

*Flaws allowed, up to two. 32pt buy.

*Preferably using a race from the PHB for more availability over a greater variety of games, but not strictly required. Though, only skills from the PHB are allowed (new uses of those skills from other books as well as Skill Tricks are all fair game).

*Screw it, we'll allow campaign specific stuff, you just get bonus points for not using it.

*I'm really looking for something that doesn't require a lot of optimization to work, and more bonus points if it works well from 1st level.

Do you group Alter Self into 'Polymorph abuse'?

[Wacky89]

Factotum 1 / Swashbuckler 1 / Swordsage 1 / Swashbuckler 2-3 / Factotum 2-3 / Human Paragon 3 / Legacy Champion 10

Feats:
HD1: Faerie Mysteries
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Bonus: Font of Inspiration
HD2 Bonus: Weapon Finesse
HD3: Knowledge Devotion
HD6: Font of Inspiration
HD8 Bonus: Keen Intellect
HD9: Font of Inspiration
Legacy Bonus: Least Legacy (Umbral Awn)
HD12: Font of Inspiration
HD15: Font of Inspiration
HD18: Font of Inspiration

Human
Stats:
Starting Stats (32 Point buy):
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 18
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 10

[Draz74]

I'm a big fan of a "traditional rogue" build that actually goes

Rogue 10 / Factotum 3 / Swordsage 4 / Uncanny Trickster 3

(with the levels carefully juggled in order). No multiclassing problems as long as you have favored class Rogue (halfling?). But this might be more of a Rogue build than a Factotum build.

I also love the archer build that Jaron posted about. It can pick up archery-boosting spells like Arrow Mind, and before you get the Cunning Surge/Manyshot combo, you can just hope for getting a critical hit; then you can add INTx3 damage with a single inspiration point for Cunning Insight.

It's not optimal, but I additionally like to deck the archer build out in nature-focused skills, decent Wisdom, plus Track or Wild Cohort or something, and have my Factotum be a "ranger" in-character.

[ben-zayb]

What I really like about the Factotum is its sheer versatility, which is compounded by a Chameleon progression. Of course, that's a cookie cutter build, and since you want some unusual build, I'll present this:

"Wilkinson"
LN Male Human Factotum 11/ Shapeshifter 1/ Master of Many Forms 3/ Warshaper 5
ABILITY SCORE:
Starting: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8
Level-Up: Int +5
Tome: at least Int +5
Enhancement: all +6

FEATS:
1 Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Master of Poisons, Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation)
3 Craft Wondrous Item
6 Obtain Familiar (+Alertness)
9 Craven
12 Endurance
15 Frozen Wildshape
18 <whatever? FoI?>
Retraining: On later levels and with DM permission, you could retrain Master of Poisons and Hidden Talent for other feats such as Fonts of Inspiration.
Alertness: You should probably snag the Alertness Ioun Stone in case the familiar dies unexpectedly.

SKILLS:
Varies depending on your role: Spot and Listen for scout, Disable Device and Search for Trapfinders, Hide and Move Silently for Ninjas, Bluff and Diplomacy for Party Faces. Hell, Iaijutsu focus if you really want.
However, Craft(Poison-Making) will aid you at low-mid levels for poison-tactics. Autohypnosis can be filled for use depending on Poison DC instead of relying on Master of Poisons.
Level 1: Utilize safe and cheap/free poisons in ranged combat, augmented by Cunning Insight and Knowledge Devotion. Being a badass Factotum, it also means any skill check can be bumped. Recommended areas of specialization are: Knowledge bank, Stealther, Acrobat, and Trapfinding for sheer SAD-ness.

Level 5: Unlocking Collector of Stories makes it easier to get combat bonuses, while grabbing Misters gives you an easy ranged touch attack too to apply ingested poisons. Brains over Brawn means most likely that at least one flat-footed attack will connect. Having SLAs also grant more versatility, as well as a means to make Wondrous Items to possibly recuperate wealth.

Level 10: Obtain Familiar provides a great feat, probably another set of skill-monkey, and a steady supply of poison. Cunning Strike opens up Craven damage bump to further improve attack, while Cunning Surge provides more chance of hitting.

Level 12 (sweet spot): A great change in playstyle is unlocked, with the Shapeshifter PrC (originally in OA, updated in DR318) giving access to 3/day 1hr. 12HD Wild Shape (as clarified in the Dragon318 update). Factotum 10 means prerequisites are met (Polymorph Self or Polymorph are both 4th level), and Factotum 11 means "screw DR". Grappling/Tripping Wild Shape forms would also enjoy Brains over Brawns, while those poisons and Craven/SA before are now applied to full-effect via flanked Pounce.

Level 15: Versatility exponentially increases with now a 6/day 4hr M/L 15HD Wild Shape (Animal, Humanoid, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid) use. Frozen Wild Shape also opens up a Cryohydra SA/Craven on multiple Standard Actions with ignored DR and Wraithstrike.

Level 20: Great perks with massive Str/Con bump, additional Natural Weapon, Extended Reach, Fast Healing and Immunity to Stun and Crit. However, what takes the cake is the massive versatility bump in the form of Multimorph. In addition to skill and low-level spell versatility of the Factotum, Wilkinson also enjoys shuffling between multiple Wild Shape forms, fulfilling multiple roles on the fly as the situation demands.

PHB: Craft Wondrous Item, Endurance, Alertness
CAd: Master of Many Form
CA: Obtain Familiar
CP: Hidden Talent, Psionic Minor Creation
CS: Craft (Poison-making), Collector of Stories
CW: Warshaper
SpC: Wraithstrike
RoD: Able Learner
RoE: Changeling
Ds: Factotum
DotU: Masters of Poison, Mister
Fro: Frozen Wild Shape
ECS: Magecraft [for crafting poison]
CoR: Craven
OA: Shapeshifter
Dr318: Updated/Clarified Shapeshifter

@Draz Hey, a fellow Ranger build! :smallamused:

[Ziegander]

Well, there's always the questions of what your DM will allow.

Yeah, unfortunately, a lot my DMs just do not go for any of the "traditional" forms of Factotum optimization.


I like Archer Factotums as a thing... all you do is combine Manyshot with Cunning Surge to launch volleys of arrows. Use Knowledge Devotion to up your chance to hit and damage, and fill in with the usual archery feats. It's not fancy, but it works.

How well does something like that stack up from 1st level when compared to, say, a Rogue or a Ranger (for the archery bits)? Yeah, when you can launch arrow volleys at 8th level, that's pretty cool, but what about in the lower levels?

In fact, if anyone has any tips for me on how to play a Factotum in the earliest levels (1-5 or so), I'd appreciate it. That's where I've found the class to struggle the most. Even with a couple Fonts of Inspiration, it just lacks a combat role in my experience in the early levels.


If you want to kick it up a bunch, use Minor Creation to generate Sinmaker's Surprise, which is a vegetable matter based poison that's DC 24 for 2d6 Con/2d6 Con, and also adds in 3d6 acid damage over three rounds. One casting of the spell will last you the full day for plenty of poisoned arrows. Your DM may balk at this though.

I would probably focus on far less powerful poisons so as to not make the DM fly into a rage. If I stuck to things like black adder venom, medium spider venom, and giant wasp poison (depending on level) I'm sure it would fly. Not anywhere near as potent, no, but it's still a lot of poison and plenty of chances per round for it to apply.

Something I've wondered though. Minor Creation references an object. You use the spell to create an object. The rules seem a bit fuzzy to me regarding liquids and their status as being objects. Like... it doesn't seem as though a puddle of water is considered an object, so why should a puddle of poison?


Now, with that said, the trick to Factotums isn't any one build... they're extremely flexible.

Of course not, but you can't play "Factotums," you have to play a build. The spells are the only flexible thing about any one Factotum character. The rest is set in stone.


Factotum 1 / Swashbuckler 1 / Swordsage 1 / Swashbuckler 2-3 / Factotum 2-3 / Human Paragon 3 / Legacy Champion 10

Feats:
HD1: Faerie Mysteries
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Bonus: Font of Inspiration
HD2 Bonus: Weapon Finesse
HD3: Knowledge Devotion
HD6: Font of Inspiration
HD8 Bonus: Keen Intellect
HD9: Font of Inspiration
Legacy Bonus: Least Legacy (Umbral Awn)
HD12: Font of Inspiration
HD15: Font of Inspiration
HD18: Font of Inspiration

Human
Stats:
Starting Stats (32 Point buy):
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 18
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 10

I don't see how this is a viable build. At extremely high levels you get 5th and 6th level swordsage manevuers and you can spam all of them in one or two rounds with Cunning Surge. But we're talking 18th level here. For 10 levels you're schtick seems to be "mostly suck at melee combat." Faerie Mysteries Initiate is an inspired choice, but multiclassing between Factotum, Swashbuckler, and Human Paragon for 10 levels doesn't seem to get you anywhere. Or am I missing something important?


What I really like about the Factotum is its sheer versatility, which is compounded by a Chameleon progression. Of course, that's a cookie cutter build, and since you want some unusual build, I'll present this:

"Wilkinson"
LN Male Human Factotum 11/ Shapeshifter 1/ Master of Many Forms 3/ Warshaper 5
ABILITY SCORE:
Starting: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8
Level-Up: Int +5
Tome: at least Int +5
Enhancement: all +6

FEATS:
1 Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Master of Poisons, Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation)
3 Craft Wondrous Item
6 Obtain Familiar (+Alertness)
9 Craven
12 Endurance
15 Frozen Wildshape
18 <whatever? FoI?>
Retraining: On later levels and with DM permission, you could retrain Master of Poisons and Hidden Talent for other feats such as Fonts of Inspiration.
Alertness: You should probably snag the Alertness Ioun Stone in case the familiar dies unexpectedly.

SKILLS:
Varies depending on your role: Spot and Listen for scout, Disable Device and Search for Trapfinders, Hide and Move Silently for Ninjas, Bluff and Diplomacy for Party Faces. Hell, Iaijutsu focus if you really want.
However, Craft(Poison-Making) will aid you at low-mid levels for poison-tactics. Autohypnosis can be filled for use depending on Poison DC instead of relying on Master of Poisons.
Level 1: Utilize safe and cheap/free poisons in ranged combat, augmented by Cunning Insight and Knowledge Devotion. Being a badass Factotum, it also means any skill check can be bumped. Recommended areas of specialization are: Knowledge bank, Stealther, Acrobat, and Trapfinding for sheer SAD-ness.

Level 5: Unlocking Collector of Stories makes it easier to get combat bonuses, while grabbing Misters gives you an easy ranged touch attack too to apply ingested poisons. Brains over Brawn means most likely that at least one flat-footed attack will connect. Having SLAs also grant more versatility, as well as a means to make Wondrous Items to possibly recuperate wealth.

Level 10: Obtain Familiar provides a great feat, probably another set of skill-monkey, and a steady supply of poison. Cunning Strike opens up Craven damage bump to further improve attack, while Cunning Surge provides more chance of hitting.

Level 12 (sweet spot): A great change in playstyle is unlocked, with the Shapeshifter PrC (originally in OA, updated in DR318) giving access to 3/day 1hr. 12HD Wild Shape (as clarified in the Dragon318 update). Factotum 10 means prerequisites are met (Polymorph Self or Polymorph are both 4th level), and Factotum 11 means "screw DR". Grappling/Tripping Wild Shape forms would also enjoy Brains over Brawns, while those poisons and Craven/SA before are now applied to full-effect via flanked Pounce.

Level 15: Versatility exponentially increases with now a 6/day 4hr M/L 15HD Wild Shape (Animal, Humanoid, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid) use. Frozen Wild Shape also opens up a Cryohydra SA/Craven on multiple Standard Actions with ignored DR and Wraithstrike.

Level 20: Great perks with massive Str/Con bump, additional Natural Weapon, Extended Reach, Fast Healing and Immunity to Stun and Crit. However, what takes the cake is the massive versatility bump in the form of Multimorph. In addition to skill and low-level spell versatility of the Factotum, Wilkinson also enjoys shuffling between multiple Wild Shape forms, fulfilling multiple roles on the fly as the situation demands.

PHB: Craft Wondrous Item, Endurance, Alertness
CAd: Master of Many Form
CA: Obtain Familiar
CP: Hidden Talent, Psionic Minor Creation
CS: Craft (Poison-making), Collector of Stories
CW: Warshaper
SpC: Wraithstrike
RoD: Able Learner
RoE: Changeling
Ds: Factotum
DotU: Masters of Poison, Mister
Fro: Frozen Wild Shape
ECS: Magecraft [for crafting poison]
CoR: Craven
OA: Shapeshifter
Dr318: Updated/Clarified Shapeshifter

I love this build, and thank you for the detailed breakdown!

Anyone out there with a Strength-focused, or Strength-secondary melee Factotum build?

[squiggit]

Out of curiosity are there any good factotum 19/20 builds? Not sure if there's anything cool you can do with cunning brilliance.

[HammeredWharf]

Out of curiosity are there any good factotum 19/20 builds? Not sure if there's anything cool you can do with cunning brilliance.

Use it to get the Knight's Challenge ability of a Knight 20 and Loyal Beyond Death.

[Nihilarian]

I love this build, and thank you for the detailed breakdown!I'm confused. :smallconfused:

Iaijutsu Focus and Polymorph are too cheesy, but Shapeshifter (same 3.0 source as IF, given an update in dragon magazine of questionable balance and the same abuse potential as polymorph) isn't? I mean, it's a good build but I would have thought you'd hate it.

EDIT:
Out of curiosity are there any good factotum 19/20 builds? Not sure if there's anything cool you can do with cunning brilliance.Can you take PrC abilities with it?

[Ziegander]

I'm confused. :smallconfused:

Iaijutsu Focus and Polymorph are too cheesy, but Shapeshifter (same 3.0 source as IF, given an update in dragon magazine of questionable balance and the same abuse potential as polymorph) isn't? I mean, it's a good build but I would have thought you'd hate it.

I never said Iaijutsu Focus and/or Polymorph are too cheesy. I said I'm tired of hearing about Iaijutsu Focus and/or I'm not allowed to use it. I said Polymorph is incredibly easy to abuse.

I said 3.0 material was not okay. I said all 3.5 material was okay, and that Dragon Compendium was okay. I would seem to be contradicting myself then if I said that a 3.5 Dragon magazine PrC was not allowed.

Also, this thread isn't about being as restrictive as my arguments in the previous thread. Remember, I asked, "what can be done with the class that hasn't been done before?" in addition to what can be done with XYZ restrictions. He provided a refreshingly unique build, even if it doesn't fall into the restrictions I outlined in the previous thread. I think he deserves to be commended for his efforts. Hell, I only provided restrictions because someone else asked me "what's allowed and what's not?" I'd prefer not to draw hard lines in the sand like that and just see some builds. Only one person provided a build in the previous thread. Everyone else got caught up in arguing with me and theorycrafting.

[Zetapup]

Use it to get the Knight's Challenge ability of a Knight 20 and Loyal Beyond Death.

Nope, has to be 15th level or lower. I've heard some arguments about Cunning Brilliance possibly giving spellcasting, but I find it pretty iffy.


EDIT:Can you take PrC abilities with it?

"Each ability must be available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower". I guess it depends on what you count as a standard character class? I'm sure there's ways to (ab)use it, but nothing I can think of off the top of my head.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, here's the promised factotum archer that I mentioned in the other thread, by the rules you set (32-PB, two flaws, no 3.0 sources, no polymorph cheese, no iaijutsu, build is primarily factotum, no non-PHB races, no Imperious Command or diplomancy abuse).

Human, Factotum 16/Mindbender 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Totemist 2

1. Factotum1- Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot (F), Font of Inspiration (F)
2. Factotum2-
3. Factotum3- Font of Inspiration
4. Factotum4-
5. Factotum5-
6. Mindbender1- Mindsight
7. Factotum6-
8. Factotum7-
9. Factotum8- Manyshot
10. Cloistered Cleric1- Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion
11. Totemist1-
12. Totemist2- Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders)
13. Factotum9-
14. Factotum10-
15. Factotum11- Font of Inspiration
16. Factotum12-
17. Factotum13-
18. Factotum14- Font of Inspiration
19. Factotum15-
20. Factotum16-

Starting at level 1, it is an effective archer, firing off two poisoned arrows per round, with inspiration to back up critical attack rolls.

At level 6, it picks up the incomparable Mindsight, to track enemies.

At level 9, it gets Cunning Surge and Manyshot, which as has been mentioned is a nice little combo. It's also worth mentioning that Manyshot uses one attack roll for all of the shots - so if you use a point of inspiration to improve the attack roll, it will improve it for all of your arrows. Fire volley after volley of poisoned arrows.

By level 12, the build's using the Phase Cloak shaped to its shoulders to turn ethereal whenever it moves. It also grabbed Travel Devotion a little bit earlier. So, its modus operandi is now as follows:

STEP 1: Find your enemy, and track its position via Mindsight, following him ethereally while in completely different rooms of a dungeon or hidden behind walls, on different floors, etc.

STEP 2: Move into position by ethereally phasing in (move action).

STEP 3: Fire an inspiration-boosted Manyshot volley of poisoned arrows. If necessary, use Cunning Surge to fire a couple of them (standard action).

STEP 4: Ethereally phase out via Travel Devotion (swift action).

Note that if retraining is allowed, I'd probably drop one of the early Fonts of Inspiration for Knowledge Devotion, and retrain it once you take that level of Cloistered Cleric.

EDIT: As an alternative, you could drop the second level of totemist and take factotum up to 17. That would mean no totem chakra binds, which is a drag, but you would get an extra spell per day and an extra point of inspiration. I think I still prefer the totem bind, but YMMV.

[HammeredWharf]

Nope, has to be 15th level or lower.

Loyal Beyond Death is a part of Knight's Challenge. Knight's Challenge is a lvl 1 ability. LBD is just the lvl 20 way of using it and you "use the ability as if your level in the relevant class equaled your factotum level". Every part of Knight's Challenge is listed separately in the table, but text trumps table and they're all under KC in the text.

[Zetapup]

Loyal Beyond Death is a part of Knight's Challenge. Knight's Challenge is a lvl 1 ability. LBD is just the lvl 20 way of using it and you "use the ability as if your level in the relevant class equaled your factotum level". Every part of Knight's Challenge is listed separately in the table, but text trumps table and they're all under KC in the text.

I'd say it's iffy due to the "Each ability must be available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower" clause. I can see a group ruling that it's fine (I don't think Loyal Beyond Death is going to break any games), but it's fuzzy enough that it prolly wouldn't be accepted at all tables. I guess the bottom line is, ask your dm and figure out how it's going to work, and then go from there.

[Nihilarian]

I never said Iaijutsu Focus and/or Polymorph are too cheesy. I said I'm tired of hearing about Iaijutsu Focus and/or I'm not allowed to use it. I said Polymorph is incredibly easy to abuse.

I said 3.0 material was not okay. I said all 3.5 material was okay, and that Dragon Compendium was okay. I would seem to be contradicting myself then if I said that a 3.5 Dragon magazine PrC was not allowed.Dragon Magazine is a rollercoaster of broken options at both ends of the spectrum. Dragon Compendium is slightly better, and I've seen people allow it while banning Dragon Magazine.
Also, this thread isn't about being as restrictive as my arguments in the previous thread. Remember, I asked, "what can be done with the class that hasn't been done before?" in addition to what can be done with XYZ restrictions. He provided a refreshingly unique build, even if it doesn't fall into the restrictions I outlined in the previous thread. I think he deserves to be commended for his efforts. Hell, I only provided restrictions because someone else asked me "what's allowed and what's not?" I'd prefer not to draw hard lines in the sand like that and just see some builds. Only one person provided a build in the previous thread. Everyone else got caught up in arguing with me and theorycrafting.Fair enough.

[HammeredWharf]

I'd say it's iffy due to the "Each ability must be available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower" clause. I can see a group ruling that it's fine (I don't think Loyal Beyond Death is going to break any games), but it's fuzzy enough that it prolly wouldn't be accepted at all tables. I guess the bottom line is, ask your dm and figure out how it's going to work, and then go from there.

Well, Cunning Brilliance is an ambiguous ability. Asking the DM is a good idea in any case, but I think this case is more clear than not. If using Knight's Challenge as a single ability is allowed, you get a lot of nifty little things in addition to LBD.

[Ziegander]

Well, Cunning Brilliance is an ambiguous ability. Asking the DM is a good idea in any case, but I think this case is more clear than not. If using Knight's Challenge as a single ability is allowed, you get a lot of nifty little things in addition to LBD.

Well, I would say you get everything that Knight's Challenge gives to a Knight 15. Likewise, if you chose Sneak Attack, I would say that you get +8d6 damage with it not +10d6. With Knight's Challenge that would mean you get access to Fighting Challenge, Test of Mettle, Call to Battle, and Daunting Challenge.

But you're right, it is very ambiguously worded.

[squiggit]

Likewise, if you chose Sneak Attack, I would say that you get +8d6 damage with it not +10d6.

I'm not sure. It outright says you treat the ability as though your class level for that class was your factotum level. So a factotum 19/20 getting full sneak attack makes sense.

Might be fuzzier for classes that add new features to an ability (like said Knight) rather than just changing numbers.


Can you take PrC abilities with it?
I think "standard class" refers to base classes rather than PrCs. That's how I see the term used colloquially but I don't have an official definition lying around that I've been able to find.

[Just to Browse]

How do these builds fare if you don't take Font of Inspiration? Using a web enhancement feat as such a crucial component always leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

[Red Rubber Band]

I'd say it's iffy due to the "Each ability must be available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower" clause. I can see a group ruling that it's fine (I don't think Loyal Beyond Death is going to break any games), but it's fuzzy enough that it prolly wouldn't be accepted at all tables. I guess the bottom line is, ask your dm and figure out how it's going to work, and then go from there.

I don't see how it's iffy. Knight's Challenge is a level 1 ability. Therefore it is available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower.
You then use the ability as though you were a Knight 20 because you "use the ability as if your level in the relevant class equaled your factotum level".

[Ziegander]

I'm not sure. It outright says you treat the ability as though your class level for that class was your factotum level. So a factotum 19/20 getting full sneak attack makes sense.

You're right! My bad. Missed that part entirely.


Might be fuzzier for classes that add new features to an ability (like said Knight) rather than just changing numbers.

Yeah, that always does make it somewhat fuzzier. RAW it seems to be that you would gain Loyal Beyond Death, though I don't know that I'd make that ruling in a game. Don't know that I wouldn't though...

[ben-zayb]

How do these builds fare if you don't take Font of Inspiration? Using a web enhancement feat as such a crucial component always leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.All of my presented builds aren't FoI-reliant. :smalltongue:

Iaijutsu Focus and Polymorph are too cheesy, but Shapeshifter (same 3.0 source as IF, given an update in dragon magazine of questionable balance and the same abuse potential as polymorph) isn't? I mean, it's a good build but I would have thought you'd hate it.Aside from poorly worded Wild Shape, could you actually point out how the use of Shapeshifter in the build is even bordering Iaijutsu Focus / Polymorph-cheese category?

Even if we use SS+MoMF level and add on the Complete Champion item set, we get 5HD (Cold subtype, Animal, Monstrous Humanoid, Humanoid, and Giant), which I believe is more than enough versatility for my build. Using Animals alone, you already got 5-H Cryohydra, Fleshraker for pounce, Desmodu Hunting Bat for flying attacks, and Swindlespitter for poison. Adding Wild Shape Amulet, we get access to up to 9HD forms. If you're so averse to shapeshifter, I suppose Factotum 8/ Ranger 5/ MoMF 2/ Warshaper 5 could work; the problem is it's less synergistic with factotum (at least in Shapeshifter, it does the prereqs for you) and became your generic Ranger/MoMF.

With the same concept, we can pay homage to Gazebo Jones (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9823824&postcount=132) with an alternative. The main differences is that you'll need to get less general feats, more combat-oriented feats (maybe focusing on AoO, Trip, or Charge) when using these in order to power up his attacks. On the bright side, you get risk-free poisonmaking so that feat slot lost is not such a hard hit. So either:You can transform into different construct on the fly as the situation calls for, and you get Unarmed Strike + Flurry of Blows iteratives to go with your natural attack. Crane means +3 mental stats, Chameleon means Alter Self at will, and the last tat could be anything from Centipede, Crab, Monkey, Mountain, Phoenix, Pine, Scorpion, or White Mask. The down side is that this time, you focus more on Str and Int, which means Dex and/or Wis will be dumped. But... here's the STR-based build that you wanted, Ziegander!With the second build, you can gain 4/day 6H 6HD Animal Forms, upgradeable to 7-11HD with items, which is seriously more than enough if your just getting Ex special attacks and Physical Stats. Why? Because Alter Self takes care of the rest: Blind, Constrict, Trample, and far better movement modes. The down side is that you lose Ex attacks gain from Wild Shape form, but that's not that such a bad trade if you can turn off Alter Self.Aside from that I could also see a Warforged Factotum 8/ Mountebank 3/ Warshaper 5/ Marshal 1/ <something> 3 build that is considerably weaker, except that you now get Int->Bluff, Alter Self (Animated Object) at will at 3rd-Level Mountebank, and more free class levels. The build will be more MAD too, with INT/STR/CHA, but you get Int+Cha to combat maneuvers.


@Ziegander I appreciate the compliments and the defense. Now excuse me while my inner fanboy screams.

[Nihilarian]

-snip-Your build didn't do anything cheesy, but Shapeshifter is definitely of questionable balance. I say this even though one of my favorite builds is Hengoyokai (anything with full BAB) 4/Warshaper 5/Shapeshifter 1/Master of Many Forms 10.

Dragon Magazine #318 updated it so that your maximum Wild Shape HD is keyed off of your character level. So yeah, it will probably cause more of a problem than Iaijutsu Focus.

Mind you, anything Shapeshifter can do can be replicated by a single 9th level spell (Shapechange), so I'm not too worried about it.

[Bloodgruve]

Factotum Dragoon

I feel the Factotum is an amazing base class that does a great job of 'Jack of all trades'. It lacks damage but its great with skills which is why it's usually paired with Iaijutsu Focus. How bout we take advantage of Jump and Knowledges to bolster our combat ability. This won't match other charger builds with Pounce but there are some strong damage options without taking away from the classes main feel which is IMHO a fair amount of knowledge about a lot of stuff and being good at anything at least once a day.


LA+0 Aasimar (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)
Factotum 4, Warblade 1, Factotum 15
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 12

Feats
1. Power Attack, FoI, Battle Jump
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Leap Attack
9. FoI
12. FoI
15. FoI
18. FoI

Skills
Jump maxed and bolstered as much as possible, Tumble 15, UMD maxed, 6x Knowledges seasoned to taste, 1 rank minimum in everything else. Meet Prerequisites for any skill tricks.

Skill Tricks
Collector of Stories, Extreme Leap, Nimble Charge, Walk the Walls, Wall Jumper

Maneuvers/Stances
Sudden Leap, Soaring Raptor Strike, Claw at the Moon, Leaping Dragon Stance

Items
Anything that boosts speed and Jump. Eternal Wands of Alter Self. Wand of Knock.

Spells
Jump, Expeditious Retreat, Spider Climb, Alter Self.

Levels
1-4, Be a factotum with a Greatsword. You won't get much out of Power Attack but Cunning Insight and Knowledge Devotion will help you hit. Spells and wands will help you work with Battle Jump.

5-8, Start using Jump to combine Leap Attack and Battle Jump. Leaping Dragon stance helps. Jump Charge> Soaring Raptor/Sudden Leap out> Jump Charge/refresh Maneuvers> Soaring Raptor/Sudden Leap Out> Rinse/Repeat DC 38 Jump allows you to make a jump that satisfies both Leap Attack and Battle Jump against a medium creature.

9+ Now you have Cunning Surge. Throw another maneuver in the mix for damage. Jump Charge one round, +8d6 maneuvers the next and reset for another Jump Charge. Maybe throw some sneak attack dice in where possible. UMD and Arcane Dilettante to keep working up your damage or support your skill use. Get a Wand of Alter Self for a lot of options as an Outsider, movement modes, Natural Attacks and up to +18 Natural Armor depending on what you morph into.

*+4 Jump for every 10' of speed you have over 30'
*Alter Self for +16 Jump as a Cervidal

Blood~

[Rebel7284]

With the ability to add INT to Attack, Damage, and, at level, 3 AC a Factotum seem better off at lower levels than most mundanes at least in shorter combats while also having great out of combat utility. Not sure where this "sucks at lower levels" attitude is coming from.

[Zetapup]

I don't see how it's iffy. Knight's Challenge is a level 1 ability. Therefore it is available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower.
You then use the ability as though you were a Knight 20 because you "use the ability as if your level in the relevant class equaled your factotum level".

I see it as iffy because the "Loyal Beyond Death" part of the Knight's Challenge would normally only be gained by a level 20 Knight, which goes against the "must be available to a standard character class of 15th level or lower" clause. Honestly, I can see it being ruled either way since the wording's pretty ambiguous, but I tend to advise based on the stricter reading when there's doubt in an ability. If someone in my game wanted the Loyal Beyond Death ability, I'd prolly be fine with it since a few more rounds of living at 20th level isn't going to break anything.

On that note, are there any class abilities a factotum could choose for cunning brilliance that would break the game/be overpowered? It seems like the ability has a lot of potential for such but I've never seen much discussion about it.

[squiggit]

Yeah, that always does make it somewhat fuzzier. RAW it seems to be that you would gain Loyal Beyond Death, though I don't know that I'd make that ruling in a game. Don't know that I wouldn't though...

Personally I'd allow it. It doesn't sound that problematic and by RAW I think it works (because LBD modifiers the challenge).

Not sure if it's RAI though and it's definitely one of those things I can see being frowned upon.



How do these builds fare if you don't take Font of Inspiration? Using a web enhancement feat as such a crucial component always leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.
It's not necessary and you can build around not needing FoI by relying on spells with longer durations and/or going for a more offensively oriented point by.

It's pretty important though since it's the fuel for almost all of your class features. You lose some of your gimmickier tricks by not taking FoI.

Speaking of inspiration: Does it roll over between encounters? I don't have dungeonscape on me at the moment so I can't see the actual page but the online page I'm reading doesn't ever mention losing Inspiration other than by spending it.

[Red Rubber Band]

I see it as iffy because the "Loyal Beyond Death" part of the Knight's Challenge would normally only be gained by a level 20 Knight, which goes against the "must be available to a standard character class of 15th level or lower" clause. Honestly, I can see it being ruled either way since the wording's pretty ambiguous, but I tend to advise based on the stricter reading when there's doubt in an ability. If someone in my game wanted the Loyal Beyond Death ability, I'd prolly be fine with it since a few more rounds of living at 20th level isn't going to break anything.

On that note, are there any class abilities a factotum could choose for cunning brilliance that would break the game/be overpowered? It seems like the ability has a lot of potential for such but I've never seen much discussion about it.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

I've seen arguments for Cunning Brilliance that say it can be used to gain Fighter Bonus feats (using your Factotum level as your Fighter level to determine how many you get) or Spells.



Speaking of inspiration: Does it roll over between encounters? I don't have dungeonscape on me at the moment so I can't see the actual page but the online page I'm reading doesn't ever mention losing Inspiration other than by spending it.
It refreshes at the beginning of an encounter. You only lose it by spending it.

[squiggit]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

I've seen arguments for Cunning Brilliance that say it can be used to gain Fighter Bonus feats (using your Factotum level as your Fighter level to determine how many you get) or Spells.

I'm not sure how kosher it is calling Bonus Feat a single class feature with multiple progressions.

Though honestly even if you could do that I'm not sure it'd be that great unless you already started at level 19. Most of the "good" (stretching the word a bit) fighter feats are feat chains that are important for getting a certain fighting style online and you really couldn't afford to wait 19 levels for your basic combat ability to start working.

Maybe if your DM let you retrain all your feats after you hit 19. Even then...


edit: Actually on second reading I don't think LBD works. LBD isn't a modification to Knight's Challenge but a new ability entirely that lets you spend your challenge to avoid death. I wouldn't count it as an effect of Knight's Challenge any more than, for instance, Divine Metamagic isn't an effect of Turn Undead.

LBD text:

At 20th level, if you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an effect that otherwise leaves your body intact, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to remain conscious and continue to act for 1 more round before dying. You can use this ability even if your hit point total is -10 or lower. If your body is somehow destroyed before your next action (such as by disintegrate), then you cannot act. You can continue to expend uses of your knight's challenge ability to survive from round to round until you run out of uses. If you receive healing that leaves you with more than -10 hit points, you survive (or fall unconscious, as appropriate to your new hit point total) when you stop using this ability. Otherwise, death overtakes you when you run out of uses of your knight's challenge ability.



It refreshes at the beginning of an encounter. You only lose it by spending it.

Got my copy of dungeonscape. The text says gains specifically... So your Inspiration just constantly goes up for each encounter if you don't spend it?

Sorry if that's common knowledge or something, just never noticed that.

[ben-zayb]

On that note, are there any class abilities a factotum could choose for cunning brilliance that would break the game/be overpowered? It seems like the ability has a lot of potential for such but I've never seen much discussion about it.Well, using only base class, the closest I can think of was the fact that maneuvers are Ex unless said otherwise (so a Warblade's entire schtick is good). However, the "Maneuvers" as a class feature doesn't have an (Ex) tag, and they sure as heck can't break the game the way spellcasting does, so YMMV. There's also Auras (Ex) from Marshal, but those are hardly broken.

If we accept prestige classes, then Aptitude Focus from Chameleon IMO takes this simply because CL40 cherry-picked spells of up to 6th level are just... fun.

EDIT: Wow, now I want to roll a Factotum19/Cleric1 just to see how bad this can get.

[Red Rubber Band]

I'm not sure how kosher it is calling Bonus Feat a single class feature with multiple progressions.

Though honestly even if you could do that I'm not sure it'd be that great unless you already started at level 19. Most of the "good" (stretching the word a bit) fighter feats are feat chains that are important for getting a certain fighting style online and you really couldn't afford to wait 19 levels for your basic combat ability to start working.

Maybe if your DM let you retrain all your feats after you hit 19. Even then...

The Fighter Bonus feat is an Ex ability and class feature or whatever it is that Cunning Brilliance targets. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment.


edit: Actually on second reading I don't think LBD works. LBD isn't a modification to Knight's Challenge but a new ability entirely that lets you spend your challenge to avoid death. I wouldn't count it as an effect of Knight's Challenge any more than, for instance, Divine Metamagic isn't an effect of Turn Undead.
Is it a completely separate ability to Knight's Challenge? Or is it a sub heading under it?
Divine Metamagic and Turn Undead are two completely different things... I don't really see how you can draw the comparison.


Got my copy of dungeonscape. The text says gains specifically... So your Inspiration just constantly goes up for each encounter if you don't spend it?

Sorry if that's common knowledge or something, just never noticed that.
From memory you can't gain more inspiration than whatever your cap is at. I swear it's somewhere in the text. I'd have to look at it another time.

[squiggit]

Is it a completely separate ability to Knight's Challenge? Or is it a sub heading under it?
Divine Metamagic and Turn Undead are two completely different things... I don't really see how you can draw the comparison.
The comparison was that both are mechanics that require you to spend a second mechanic's daily uses to activate.

As written LBD only mentions Challenge insofar is that you spend a daily use of challenge to activate it and doesn't appear in any way to be related to Challenge otherwise. They key there is that LBD activates not by using challenge, but by expending a use of it.

From memory you can't gain more inspiration than whatever your cap is at. I swear it's somewhere in the text. I'd have to look at it another time.

I couldn't find a reference to a cap, only that you gain inspiration equal to the value on the table at the start of every encounter, but I'm kinda bad at looking for things.

[HammeredWharf]

The comparison was that both are mechanics that require you to spend a second mechanic's daily uses to activate.

As written LBD only mentions Challenge insofar is that you spend a daily use of challenge to activate it and doesn't appear in any way to be related to Challenge otherwise. They key there is that LBD activates not by using challenge, but by expending a use of it.

It's a subheading under Challenge in the class description. Challenge is in bold, while all the uses of it, such as LBD, are in italic. It's separate in the table, but text trumps table. If the table and the text were in agreement, the table would say "Knight's Challenge (Loyal Beyond Death)".

[Zetapup]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

I've seen arguments for Cunning Brilliance that say it can be used to gain Fighter Bonus feats (using your Factotum level as your Fighter level to determine how many you get) or Spells.

Fair enough :smallsmile:

Huh, I think it would actually work for gaining fighter feats. The text is they get a bonus fighter feat at 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, and it seems to be one class feature. That could give a lot of versatility since a factotum could have exactly the right fighter feats for any one situation, although that might become a hassle with paperwork if someone had a list of optimal feats for the various situations.


Well, using only base class, the closest I can think of was the fact that maneuvers are Ex unless said otherwise (so a Warblade's entire schtick is good). However, the "Maneuvers" as a class feature doesn't have an (Ex) tag, and they sure as heck can't break the game the way spellcasting does, so YMMV. There's also Auras (Ex) from Marshal, but those are hardly broken.

If we accept prestige classes, then Aptitude Focus from Chameleon IMO takes this simply because CL40 cherry-picked spells of up to 6th level are just... fun.

EDIT: Wow, now I want to roll a Factotum19/Cleric1 just to see how bad this can get.

Manuevers are decent, yeah. Hrm. Would your initiator be just your factotum level, or would it be your factotum level + half your factotum levels? The cunning brilliance ability states "You use the ability as if your level in the relevant class equaled your factotum level.", so you might also get half your factotum level in addition because of the initiator rules? I'm really unsure about this, so someone please let me know what would be the correct reading.

Yeah, marshall auras aren't going to break much. I'd prolly stick to base classes (is standard character class even defined anywhere?), but it sounds like an interesting build.


I couldn't find a reference to a cap, only that you gain inspiration equal to the value on the table at the start of every encounter, but I'm kinda bad at looking for things.

Yeah, I think the inspiration ability is badly written, in that it currently gives you inspiration points at the beginning of each encounter, with no cap (if I'm somehow missing the cap too, please let me know). This sometimes leads to discussion of factotums having a bunch of encounters against easy enemies/whatever early in the day, then using all their inspiration points against the boss. Personally, I'd change it to refreshing at the beginning of each encounter instead of adding.

[HammeredWharf]

Even if you could get spellcasting or something like chameleon's Aptitude Focus, I'm not sure it would work. A caster has to prepare his spells and Cunning Brilliance is too short for that. Similarly, I think you'd need Adaptive Style to use non-crusader maneuvers and RAW your IL would be 30.

[Red Rubber Band]

The comparison was that both are mechanics that require you to spend a second mechanic's daily uses to activate.
I see what you're meaning, but to me it seems too different a comparison. Probably just me.



As written LBD only mentions Challenge insofar is that you spend a daily use of challenge to activate it and doesn't appear in any way to be related to Challenge otherwise. They key there is that LBD activates not by using challenge, but by expending a use of it.
What HammeredWharf said is why I disagree and what I was querying.

It's a subheading under Challenge in the class description. Challenge is in bold, while all the uses of it, such as LBD, are in italic. It's separate in the table, but text trumps table. If the table and the text were in agreement, the table would say "Knight's Challenge (Loyal Beyond Death)".



Huh, I think it would actually work for gaining fighter feats. The text is they get a bonus fighter feat at 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, and it seems to be one class feature. That could give a lot of versatility since a factotum could have exactly the right fighter feats for any one situation, although that might become a hassle with paperwork if someone had a list of optimal feats for the various situations.
I think it adds a whole other dimension to Factotum. Yeah it messes with Fighter even more, but it's already a dead horse. Seems a bit stupid but to completely change your focus from day to day... pretty good base for a character suffering from dissociative identity disorder.



Manuevers are decent, yeah. Hrm. Would your initiator be just your factotum level, or would it be your factotum level + half your factotum levels? The cunning brilliance ability states "You use the ability as if your level in the relevant class equaled your factotum level.", so you might also get half your factotum level in addition because of the initiator rules? I'm really unsure about this, so someone please let me know what would be the correct reading.
I would personally say you get maneuvers at full IL, as if you had had 20 levels in Warblade for example.



I couldn't find a reference to a cap, only that you gain inspiration equal to the value on the table at the start of every encounter, but I'm kinda bad at looking for things.

Yeah, I think the inspiration ability is badly written, in that it currently gives you inspiration points at the beginning of each encounter, with no cap (if I'm somehow missing the cap too, please let me know). This sometimes leads to discussion of factotums having a bunch of encounters against easy enemies/whatever early in the day, then using all their inspiration points against the boss. Personally, I'd change it to refreshing at the beginning of each encounter instead of adding.
Hmm. Now that I think on it a bit more, this same conversation may have come up once or twice before. I'll have to cede to you both as I wasn't able to access the books, and you've both clearly read over it much more recently than I have.

[JaronK]

How well does something like that stack up from 1st level when compared to, say, a Rogue or a Ranger (for the archery bits)? Yeah, when you can launch arrow volleys at 8th level, that's pretty cool, but what about in the lower levels?

At lower levels you have less damage than a Rogue archer (no sneak attack unless spending inspiration on it) but better skill monkey abilities and a bit of magic. Your archery is basically just "enough to contribute in combat". Obviously, you do a bit better than a Rogue at those levels against undead, oozes, constructs, elementals, and similar sneak attack immunes. I've found it's sufficient to get the job done unless you're in a very high optimization party, at which point you take Hidden Talent and go crazy with poison.


In fact, if anyone has any tips for me on how to play a Factotum in the earliest levels (1-5 or so), I'd appreciate it. That's where I've found the class to struggle the most. Even with a couple Fonts of Inspiration, it just lacks a combat role in my experience in the early levels.

Well, the archery version worked well in the last game I was in. Have you tried it?


I would probably focus on far less powerful poisons so as to not make the DM fly into a rage. If I stuck to things like black adder venom, medium spider venom, and giant wasp poison (depending on level) I'm sure it would fly. Not anywhere near as potent, no, but it's still a lot of poison and plenty of chances per round for it to apply.

Vegetable matter only, so no venoms. Black Lotus Poison and Sinmaker's Surprise are the only two I remember that are explicitly vegetable based. There may be other weaker ones though... I didn't bother paying attention to them, but they may exist.


Something I've wondered though. Minor Creation references an object. You use the spell to create an object. The rules seem a bit fuzzy to me regarding liquids and their status as being objects. Like... it doesn't seem as though a puddle of water is considered an object, so why should a puddle of poison?

"A large bladder of poison". "A barrel of poison". Those are the objects you make.


Of course not, but you can't play "Factotums," you have to play a build. The spells are the only flexible thing about any one Factotum character. The rest is set in stone.

Actually, I've found you can make really flexible ones... a lot of "builds" don't use all the resources. A poisoner Factotum basically just has to be a Necropolitan or take the Master of Poisons feat, and at low levels needs Hidden Talent for Psionic Minor Creation (but doesn't need that feat when he hits a level where he can cast regular Minor Creation). Using Knowledge Devotion works for basically any attack form, too.


Anyone out there with a Strength-focused, or Strength-secondary melee Factotum build?

Focus on tripping? You've got Int to trip checks anyway.

JaronK

[paperarmor]

Let's try this then

Goliath Factotum 20 (with LA buy off)
Level 1 Combat Expertise
level 3 Improved trip
level 6 Knockdown
Best things to do here use large reach weapons and then use a wand of heroics to pick some ubercharger feats, zoom in to combat and use the Shock Trooper's domino rush option to knock over some baddies and trip them up when they stand. Snag Knockback to move them around some more. you could also do this with Dungeoncrasher Fighter and get the Ubercharger feats from that and save Heroics for things like Martial stance (thicket of Blades )

[Oscredwin]

Let's try this then

Goliath Factotum 20 (with LA buy off)
Level 1 Combat reflexes
level 3 Improved trip
level 6 Knockdown
Best things to do here use large reach weapons and cast enlarge person and then use a wand of heroics to pick some ubercharger feats, zoom in to combat and use the Shock Trooper's domino rush option to knock over some baddies and trip them up when they stand. Snag Knockback to move them around some more. you could also do this with Dungeoncrasher Fighter and get the Ubercharger feats from that and save Heroics for things like Martial stance (thicket of Blades )

You don't have Combat Expertise as a prereq (although if you meant that for level 1 you only have 1 AoO, and you're still using Combat Reflexes on a dex penalty race).
Goliaths, being monstrous humanoids, are immune to "person" spells like enlarge person.

How about necropolitan human 32 pt buy:
Str 15
Dex 14
Con (8) -
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats:
1) Combat Expertise, FMI, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip
3) Knockdown
6) FoI
9) FoI
12) FoI
15) FoI
18) FoI

Maybe a Cloistered Cleric dip for devotion feats after level 3.

[squiggit]

What HammeredWharf said is why I disagree and what I was querying.
Yeah, turns out the site I was reading didn't have it formatted the same way as the book, it is listed as a subability of challenge in the book and on the WoTC article.


Hmm. Now that I think on it a bit more, this same conversation may have come up once or twice before. I'll have to cede to you both as I wasn't able to access the books, and you've both clearly read over it much more recently than I have.

It really doesn't sound right, but after reading it a few times I couldn't find any reference to a cap.

Re: Fighter feats. The problem I see is that they're usually long feat trees that you need to get a fighting style to work, waiting until level 19 to make your build come online seems sketchy if you don't have a DM who'll let you retrain everything.

Re: Maneuvers. Potentially really cool, but you need at least 1 level of an initiator for adaptive style (preferable crusader) which might muddy things a bit.

[bekeleven]

The most powerful use of cunning brilliance besides spellcasting is Dark Knowledge, bar none.

[paperarmor]

You don't have Combat Expertise as a prereq (although if you meant that for level 1 you only have 1 AoO, and you're still using Combat Reflexes on a dex penalty race).
Goliaths, being monstrous humanoids, are immune to "person" spells like enlarge person.

How about necropolitan human 32 pt buy:
Str 15
Dex 14
Con (8) -
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats:
1) Combat Expertise, FMI, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip
3) Knockdown
6) FoI
9) FoI
12) FoI
15) FoI
18) FoI

Maybe a Cloistered Cleric dip for devotion feats after level 3.

Oops really messed that up will edit to correct.

[Optimator]

The most powerful use of cunning brilliance besides spellcasting is Dark Knowledge, bar none.
Never thought of that!! Thanks!

[Irk]

minor creation also allows for greensickness.

I could see an Elan Factotum using some levels in swordsage to get assassin's stance and minor creation for poison in conjunction with cunning strike, arcane dilettante for alter self into a grell, and the ambush feat that deals charisma damage.

[Falcon X]

If you allow for homebrews, I've done Bardic song as a feat for Factotums. Your songs are cunning insight, cunning knowledge, cunning defence, cunning surge, cunning breach, cunning dodge, and cunning brilliance. All just allow you to use the inspiration as a song that boosts allies as long as it's being played.

Now Factotum replaces the bard! It's not game breaking because you can't do other things while playing music.

[ben-zayb]

If you allow for homebrews, I've done Bardic song as a feat for Factotums. Your songs are cunning insight, cunning knowledge, cunning defence, cunning surge, cunning breach, cunning dodge, and cunning brilliance. All just allow you to use the inspiration as a song that boosts allies as long as it's being played.

Now Factotum replaces the bard! It's not game breaking because you can't do other things while playing music.I doubt he is looking for homebrew options, as he already made his own spin on the factotum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217570) as a homebrew.