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View Full Version : Roleplaying Getting away with evil...in a good-aligned party.



Oncoming Storm
2014-03-19, 12:13 AM
So, we've just started a new campaign (DnD next) and my character is a tiefling mage. I have gotten permission from the DM to play an evil character (not CE) to reflect my character's heritage, superiority complex, and desire to transcend the limits of his humanity. The issue is that the rest of the party is good or neutral--most worryingly, there's a paladin and a good-aligned cleric.

Now, remaining on good terms with the group is something I have more or less figured out (none of them know I'm evil, even OOC, and actually think I'm CG.) The character is highly intelligent, and certainly smart enough to realize that his best chance of avoiding stabbydeath while acquiring more power is to remain on good terms with a group of good people, make myself indispensable to them, and generally be agreeable and not piss everyone off. He has a decent charisma (14) so this seems justifiable IC (though he resents the HELL out of the necessity of kowtowing to a bunch of do-gooders.) My strategy for dealing with the paladin has/will be to make good friends with him, so that he hopefully never has reason to detect evil on me--and if he does, I plan to claim that my 'fiendish heritage' makes me ping as evil regardless of my earnest efforts to the contrary. I plan to try and make one of the other players the 'party outcast' (he's already alienated half the party by being aggressively thuggish) so that I have a scapegoat if things go bad.

Anyways, I have the following questions
1. Do you think this strategy has any chance of being successful in the long term? at the moment, I'm not planning any retribution, unless they well an truly piss the character off in the meantime, and I'm certainly not intending to off anyone unless absolutely necessary.

2. With this in mind, how would you go about expressing the character's evil in ways which don't ping on the party's evil-dar, either IC or OOC? I feel like executing helpless enemies is a possibility, as the party has already shown a willingness to overlook it in the neutrals, but what else could I do? I suppose simply not speaking up (or offering only weak resistance) to any morally dubious plans the group comes up with is one way--get them used to evil by degrees in order to slowly corrupt them. In general, I want to stay true to my character's alignment (he needs a safety valve, or he's liable to do something rash) without breaking his cover, if possible--and also to foreshadow the reveal, if and when it comes, so it doesn't look like something I pulled out of my ass. Essentially, how do I get away with committing evil acts without tipping people off?

3. How would you react to the following, if/when it comes up--the character is descended ( according to GM) from a contract devil of middling power, who keeps tabs on him using his familiar (named Damocles, if you were wondering...) He therefore has the potential to 'hook up' people with hellish pacts. If the party's in a real bind, and he 'reluctantly' offers one or more of them a pact to escape, do you think this would instantly set off evil-dar alarms, and lead to a one-way trip to stabbytown? Or could it be cast in such a way as to seem like a 'necessary evil committed by otherwise good character?'

cakellene
2014-03-19, 12:30 AM
How long till paladin detects you being evil and either kills you or one of you has to leave party?

ScubaGoomba
2014-03-19, 12:30 AM
From the small description present, it doesn't even really sound like your character is Evil? He might be a selfish prick, but that doesn't necessarily make him an Evil character, you know? Admittedly, there isn't much about him there, so this is sort of beside the point...

I think part of determining how to hide his Evil while also getting Evil things done lies a lot in his "brand," if you will. Maybe, while roleplaying, toss in a few things that could be neutral or evil ("look, I'm not saying I enjoy killing the entire goblin village, but if the women and children survive, they'll repopulate and come back to get us..." okay, that's actually a terrible example). This kind of character can work, but I do suggest that you never engage in PvP, even if it seems "in character." It can really cause a schism between players and will wind up with one player having to reroll (either you, for being killed or kicked from the group or the Paladin for being killed/leaving the group). When you guys are at the point that a conflict like this would be dramatically appropriate, it would also be really difficult for a player to part with his or her character.

Getting away with Evil acts is tricky, especially (again) considering your "brand" of Evil. Offing a few enemies that are being difficult or non-responsive may be a good way to do this. In negotiations, you could offer yourself up as the "bad cop" and use this as an excuse to exercise excessive violence.

I think, with regards to the pacts, the real issue would be in explaining why you have access to this power more than setting off any "Evil-dar." I think it would be wise to exercise caution in who you offer pacts, but also consider that it might be a good way to play up the "Evil" by not offering pacts (especially to the Paladin or Cleric).

Oncoming Storm
2014-03-19, 12:53 AM
The Evil, I think, comes from his complete contempt for humanity, and his lack of scruples in achieving his goals. His endgame is to shed mortality completely and become an outsider (or if he gets lucky, a demigod..but then, you've got to be realistic about these things.) He views mortals, in particular humans, as being unworthy of consideration except in how it affects him personally, and he's perfectly willing to expend any number of lives in order to realize this goal. He has boundaries-for instance, he has respect for other half-outsiders, seeing them as kindred spirits (though those that resent/are ashamed of their nature would definitely arouse his ire) and he is loyal to his (few) real friends, who he considers his intellectual equals. He absolutely plans to prove his worth to his father by brokering as many pacts as he can, and doesn't particularly give a damn about the souls lost. The people who take pacts are idiots, and idiots deserve to live only to the extent that it is convenient to allow them to do so.

As for the PvP...It's definitely NOT in character for him UNLESS his back was against a wall. These people are, to him, his shields against both suspicion and sharp objects. They're USEFUL, especially at low levels where the threat of death is very real. He'll fight with them, defend them (whether or not they're in the right) and even consider risking himself for them (if the potential danger is very low comparative to the risk-taking a goblin arrow for the other mage in the party could set him up as appearing self-sacrificing without actually endangering his life.) That said, he'd abandon the party in a heartbeat if the alternative was death--again, he might try to save the mage, who he respects, but if it came down to him or them...it would be an easy call.

Cakellene, I get what you're saying. the plan is to make the paladin into a friend (his CG persona is VERY friendly, helpful, and 'open,'--he purports to be a crusader for tiefling equality by debunking misconceptions about their 'innate' evil) so he never thinks to detect on me--you don't spy on your friends, after all--it'd be rude. If that eventuality comes up, as I said, I intend to blame the evil 'ping' on my bloodline, and act hurt at the suspicion, chalking it up as another act of 'bigoted, anti-tiefling sentiment.'

cakellene
2014-03-19, 12:59 AM
Not saying he will detect on you, but how will you stop him detecting on others while you are in range?

Ydaer Ca Noit
2014-03-19, 01:55 AM
Really, don't try to make an other PC scapegoat, its a really bad idea.

Other than that, I have had players who did the "Im evil but Im hiding it" and I have done it myself. Most of the time it just doesn't matter, to the point that the DM starts to wonder if you remember that you are evil :smalltongue:

The best way to go with it is when nobody is around killing NPCs the others don't like too (or some that have to die for your plans to work better). Remember to cut their tongues off, because dead tell tales. Maybe wear a mask. Make 2 identical masks and wear one of them all the time. If you are discovered make sure its the mask you never wore the one they saw. Claim that you never wore that mask if inside a zone of truth. If you ping evil, claim that it isn't fair because WOTC made a succubus paladin, and it is not logical for tieflings to ping evil just because. Make sure that your DM will play along and not just tell everyone your alignment.

Also, you *will* get caught. Try to have a reasonable excuse for the rest of the party. Telling that you killed someone because of the letters you get that tell they plan to do something terrible is better than nothing (and you can send those letters to yourself to prepare your lie. Also get a second name for yourself so you can claim that "name" sends those to you).

Yep zone of truth was a common thing in my goups :P

Norfire
2014-03-19, 02:31 AM
This is my personal opinion but I hate the whole secretly evil character. It's overdone and forces the player to play a good character, you may as well just play a good character. If you want to play evil play evil but give the party a reason to tolerate you. Work with the dm on a story and play evil. Enemy of my enemy, maybe you save them, point is it can be done. Be a snarky ass that has less value on human life than the others. Don't cross the line though and do something crazy like eat a baby without covering your tracks.

Mnemnosyne
2014-03-19, 03:43 AM
Can't you broker pacts with people you meet (not the party) regularly, ideally while somehow disguised (mask, as noted, or magic to hide your real appearance, etc)? Make sure your contracts stipulate that they cannot reveal who offered services to them, or something really bad happens (assuming that's within your power to actually do).

Also, don't be one of those doublecrossing fiends that immediately tries to make things bad for the person who made the pact. Make fair pacts, let your 'customers' enjoy the benefits they got. You're looking at the long-term anyway, eventually you'll get their soul. You don't have to arrange their death or arrange for whatever they gained to leave a sour taste in their mouth.

CrazyYanmega
2014-03-19, 05:45 AM
Coup-de-Grace the party. Wait for an opportune moment, like before a boss fight. Walk into the boss's room and show the BBEG the corpses. Inform him that you want a position among the WINNERS.

EDIT: Be hammy about it. If you can roleplay it well, you could divert some of the anger to respect if you play the role WELL.

TheDarkDM
2014-03-19, 06:22 AM
Coup-de-Grace the party. Wait for an opportune moment, like before a boss fight. Walk into the boss's room and show the BBEG the corpses. Inform him that you want a position among the WINNERS.

EDIT: Be hammy about it. If you can roleplay it well, you could divert some of the anger to respect if you play the role WELL.

Or, you know, don't piss off the group of people you share a table with by acting as though the game were your personal power fantasy?

I always see this line of reasoning suggested to people who want to play evil characters. You know what's more profitable than trying to come up with various ways to screw the party once you test positive on their malevometer? Acting like a human being and forging relationships. I realize your character has a contempt for humanity, but people don't spend weeks risking life and limb without some sort of bond forming between them. Once that happens, who's to say the party won't side with you when the paladin realizes he's on the fast track to losing his nifty powers?

Playing an effective evil character in a good or neutral group isn't about plotting to assassinate people so you can put on your saturday morning cartoon villain cape. It's about playing the game as a moral relativist where "what's best for me" is always the primary concern. Don't lobby to slaughter a goblin village - that accomplishes nothing for you. If you have a goblin village at your mercy, enlist them in "community service" to repent for their evil deeds. Who cares if it's basically slavery if it's for the greater good, right? I'd also question why your tiefling is willing to do his grandsire's work by offering infernal pacts. Infernal pacts don't help you unless you're the one benefiting from them. Why not put your supposedly superior outsider skills to use corrupting your party? And not with Mindrape or cursed items, but by presenting an easy path to goals their characters want to accomplish. If you want to play an effective evil character in a good game, you have to play smart.

I've played an evil character in every D&D campaign I've ever played, all of which have been built around a Good group. You don't survive to have fun by playing Skeletor. You survive by playing Machiavelli.

CrazyYanmega
2014-03-19, 06:26 AM
My apologies. I was a bit pissed off at a DM essentially facilitating a player completely and permanently disabling the party, and I let my passive aggressiveness bleed into this forum.

TheDarkDM
2014-03-19, 06:39 AM
My apologies. I was a bit pissed off at a DM essentially facilitating a player completely and permanently disabling the party, and I let my passive aggressiveness bleed into this forum.

Well, that's a reasonable emotional reaction, and it sounds like a **** move on the part of the player and/or the DM. However, advice similar to your has been given numerous times on this forum and it never fails to drive me up the wall. It's like some people think that an E in your alignment block negates the fact that the other PC's are played by people who will rightly regard you as an ******* if you turn the game into Paranoia-without-clones.

Stoneback
2014-03-19, 07:27 AM
Saruman in the Hobbit. Totally evil, but guarded and smart about it.

Oncoming Storm
2014-03-19, 10:35 AM
thanks for all the responses!

I think I answered many of the concerns that have come up in my initial two posts, but given my predilection for wall of text, I understand why that wouldn't have been picked up on.

1. He's NOT planning to betray the party. Certainly not immediately--it's hard work for a tiefling to gain enough trust with a group of 'good' aligned and suspicious people. He WOULD leave them to die if it meant saving his own skin, but that shouldn't come up if we're careful.

2. The contracts, I've been told, will work on some sort of 'referral bonus' basis - the person pacting gets whatever they pacted for, grandpappy gets a soul, and jr. gets some bit of eldritch knowledge/power/a favour with another devil in debt to granddad, with the eventual endgoal of becoming powerful enough to obtain macguffin artefact (hopefully by steering the party towards it's resting place--it IS guarded by fiends after all.)

3. As for secretly evil...I mean, right now he's keeping the mask pretty tight, but once he gains the group's trust, he'll probably start (subtly) trying to bring about...less than good outcomes. He's not gonna be dumping poison in a well or anything, though.

4. Scapegoating: it's less about me DOING anything than NOT doing anything to the Aggressively Thuggish Player (ATP?) he looks like a ****, I look harmless/the victim. If an argument occurs, or something REALLY needs to be blamed on someone, group perception is already going to be focused on him.

jedipotter
2014-03-19, 11:10 AM
How would you go about expressing the character's evil in ways which don't ping on the party's evil-dar, either IC or OOC?

Unless your an over the top Evilz type person, you don't really need to do much evil. Not day to day. You won't loose evil cred if you don't slaughter in innocent every day.

Adventurers, even paladins and good clerics, are rough elements that exist outside the normal way of things. After all the average adventurer has killed hundreds of intelligent beings, stolen thousands in gold, looted places, and other such acts. Even the paladin. So adventuring has a lot of gray built in already. So you can do plenty of evil in the gray.

Though you will have the classic problems:

1. Most of the evil fun and cool stuff you'd want to do would be best done alone...in a solo game. You can't really hog the spotlight in a group game to do anything.

2. Most of the evil fun and cool stuff you'd want to do is best to do secretly. So the other characters would not know. But at the table, the other players would know. So nothing would be a real secret.

3. Evil is unfair and unfun for the rest of the players. After sitting want watch you ''secretly'' do anything, you will upset people.

4. A lot of people won't want to play the ''lets get screwed over by the evil guy game''. That is not the game they came to play.

5. It is over all just wrong that the only way as a player that you can feel evil is by hurting and upsetting the other players.

Segev
2014-03-19, 11:19 AM
Play 'good' while you're with the party. That's the crux of it. If you've got the ability, get Nondetection as a spell and keep it up. Don't look for opportunities to be evil. Don't take them if they don't benefit you or the party. If they do benefit you or the party, take them subtly. Don't backstab your allies (good advice for anybody who isn't CE) and make sure your evil actions benefit the group at least as often as they benefit yourself alone. Be the poisonous friend who will do the dirty work the party doesn't want to know needs doing.

Don't pretend to care where you do not, but do care about what the party cares about; after all, you care about them as allies, if nothing else, and allies who like you and maybe owe you favors are less likely to betray you...especially if they're good-aligned saps.

Oncoming Storm
2014-03-19, 12:43 PM
Again, I'm NOT screwing over the party, except possibly at the end of my character arc (at which point, the character would leave the game, having ascended to devilhood)

BoutsofInsanity
2014-03-19, 12:52 PM
I actually was in a similar situation. The easiest answer is to play your character but having him change over the course of the game.

Let me explain. You are who you hang out with. If you hang out with thugs and killers, the likelihood of you exhibiting traits that those people exhibit increases. The same goes for hanging out with good wholesome people. You are more likely to exhibit those traits.

Play your Tiefling as an egotistical who can be very callous about life. He may not understand the sanctity of it yet. Hell, he can even be the guy who gets **** done. The party let the bad guy go. Have your character secretly go behind their back and kill the guy. Because your character would never let someone that threatening live. Say a cool line too.
"See, my friends, they are good people. I am not quite there yet. Maybe some day I can look in the mirror and not scream. But for now, I will dirty my hands so that theirs can remain clean".

Your Tiefling may not understand what being good is, or what friendship is. But the Paladin does. You may be joining the party as one last chance at figuring out what being "good" truly is before crossing the moral event horizon. I would go further and say that the Paladin won't smite you on site because he would want to offer you a chance to see what the good side is like. If he can help set an example of Justice and Sacrifice to SAVE YOU from crossing over, he will die complete.

Finally, be friends with the party. DO NOT PLAY A SOCIOPATH! I cannot emphasize this enough. Don't play the callous manipulator who does not care about the party and sees them as tools. Play a man, who is struggling to find his place in the world, who is on the brink. You may be selfish now, but who is to say that after being around good people that he won't grow to love them and others. He doesn't have to stop being badass. But maybe he becomes a Jerk with a heart of gold?

RedMage125
2014-03-19, 01:07 PM
I think as long as you're on board with the whole "I do NOT plan on betraying my party" mentality, you're doing fine.

But I must ask a few questions:
1) Why be Evil at all? If his "contempt" is really in a "apathy towards the plight of others" kind of way, could this character work as Neutral?

2) IIRC, paladins in D&DNext do not "detect Evil" in the same way they did in 3.5. That, and I'm pretty sure that (according to the stated design goals regarding detecting evil in DDN) as a tiefling and not a true fiend, you wouldn't show up on a paladin's "radar" even if he DID point it at you.


That said, I suggest only letting your Evil of its leash when appropriate. Sometimes characters with Evil alignments can be the hero of the story (take Riddick, for example, stated in ComScou to be CE). Evil characters can have the same drive for adventure that non-evil ones do. And nothing about being evil means you can't work with and even like the people you adventure with. Loyalty to the people close to you is not a Good trait, or even a Lawful one. A NE person can be very loyal to their friends. Especially when said friends frequently depend on each other for their lives.

Maybe if you express a utilitarian view towards evil and punishing "bad guys". Utilitarianism is not-in the strictest sense-evil. But it can be used to justify some questionable things that could lead one down a slippery slope of evil. But as long as you point your ruthless behaviors in a direction that party will at least find non-objectionable (if not acceptable), much like Belkar, you will probably find ways to do just fine.

I would talk with your DM as well. It sounds like he's invested in your backstory, which is good. If you simply express to him, that sometime along the line you would like a chance to roleplay out the nuances of your character, it should be reasonable of him to provide you with opportinuties to do so.

PaucaTerrorem
2014-03-19, 01:11 PM
You sound like you have a good grasp of what you're trying to do. Roll *puns!* with it.

If some street urchin tries to steal from the party and is caught, after the pansy Cleric and Pally send the child away with a stern lecture, slink away and kill the child at night. Away from the party.

The noble who turned your party away. Poison. Away from the party.

Take Leadership without telling the party. Use your cohort and followers as your personal hit squad. Away from the party.

You might end up looking like a coke fiend *puns!* by running off all the time, but wizards need them components and you happen to locate some over there. In that alley. Tonight. While they're sleeping. Away from the party.

RedMage125
2014-03-19, 01:34 PM
I think that would make things obvious to the other PLAYERS as well.

He's trying to roleplay his character as Evil, while keeping this under the radar, even OOC to the other players at the table.

Oncoming Storm
2014-03-19, 01:47 PM
Yeah, that is the main thing. We have some newer players who are less than skilled at avoiding metagaming/ooc to ic knowledge crossover. I want to develop a strategy that will let me BE evil, and play a believably despicable character, who can survive in such a party.

The DM is good about private asides and note passing, but if this happens too often, it becomes evidence in it's own right.

PaucaTerrorem
2014-03-19, 02:00 PM
Start passing notes to other players. Just little observations at first. Then slowly corrupt one of them. If there's a stealth person in the party convince them that you can make each other wealthy if he's willing to pilfer here and there. Make the BSF believe the Pally feels contempt for him. When the Pally needs a saving hand, maybe BSF is "too stupid to realize it" and he gets whomped on. "Pray" daily with the Cleric. You want him to have your back in case Pally starts using his brain. Make sure you Role-Play it. Might mess with party dynamics, but if done well it should make for an enjoyable campaign for everyone.

I'm just launching ideas out.

NikitaDarkstar
2014-03-19, 02:45 PM
If the DM is up for it see if you can't work some things out over e-mail after a session. Especially if you make it a habit to have your character wander off on his own for short periods of time ("I'll catch up with you at the Inn, I just need to pick up a few spell-components and some more materials for scrolls." that sort of thing). Then you, if your DM agrees to do it, can do a few things (within reason time-wise) off-screen, and not only not hog the spotlight, but also not tip the other players off.

Also keep in mind that you can do Good and still be Evil simply because of your motivations. Even an evil character stands to loose if the world ends. He may not appreciate the influence of some Evil artifact because of the effect it has on the people he needs etc.

Also, you can do a great deal of evil simply by choosing to do nothing. A good character would interfere if he saw some thugs robbing some poor old man, an evil one is more likely to simply keep walking, and if asked why just say "It's not my business". Sometimes all you need to do is give it room to grow. ;)

Madeiner
2014-03-19, 03:03 PM
I don't understand.
If you dont want to screw the pary over, why not let them know OCC of your evil? If they are good roleplayers, they can roll with it IC, and you also get to do some stuff sometimes.

Besides, how are you going to hide it OOC? If every two session you go "off to do something" or you tell the DM that you "want to do that thing.. wink wink", the players will figure out something OOC and, since you intended to keep OOC things out of the table, they will figure out a way to do bad things (tm) IC since they will now be wary of you.

Also, what about the part "i dont want to screw anyone... except at the end of my story arc"?
That's way too convenient for you. I'd turn you into an NPC right there unless that was the final session of the campaign. You would have no right to kill or screw your FRIENDS because YOUR story arc is over.

Ansem
2014-03-19, 03:46 PM
Ring of Mind Shielding

Oncoming Storm
2014-03-19, 04:01 PM
Hmm? No, you've got me wrong Madeiner. The screwing over the party would be the realization that they'd inadvertently assisted in my obtaining a major artifact, and therefore allowed me to rise to devilhood. If I ACTUALLY achieved that goal IC...and I suspect it wouldn't be as easy as that...well, playing a contract devil PC would be incredibly OP, neh? NPC-dom would absolutely be something that would happen in that case, unless there was a very good reason to allow otherwise (in a way which kept everyone involved. Anything else would be idiotic.

It's a VERY longterm goal, anyways--If it happened, It'd be in the closing acts of the campaign.

delenn
2014-03-19, 05:01 PM
I agree with the suggestions to think about having your character slide toward neutral because of the party's influence, and to think about talking it out OOC.

I'm playing in an evil campaign, and it's actually the most 'together' party I've ever played in (not necessarily the 'best', because I've played in awesome but slightly dysfunctional parties before, just the one where everyone is most on-board with our goals and coherent as a team. we're a well-oiled machine). There's a lot of potentially interesting RP with an evil character in an otherwise G/N party, and if you think the other players can keep OOC from IC knowledge, the game will be a lot richer for it. Otherwise you're just going to keep having to do things privately with the DM, which will raise their suspicions and make them feel like dupes, which is not conducive to a fun game for everyone. It's ok to occasionally deceive other players, but hijacking the story for yourself is really never cool. You might succeed, in the end, but you probably won't be invited back. And it's worthwhile to keep your long-term options open - which may include an alignment shift for your PC, despite your initial intentions to shift some of the others.

cakellene
2014-03-19, 10:05 PM
I think as long as you're on board with the whole "I do NOT plan on betraying my party" mentality, you're doing fine.

But I must ask a few questions:
1) Why be Evil at all? If his "contempt" is really in a "apathy towards the plight of others" kind of way, could this character work as Neutral?

2) IIRC, paladins in D&DNext do not "detect Evil" in the same way they did in 3.5. That, and I'm pretty sure that (according to the stated design goals regarding detecting evil in DDN) as a tiefling and not a true fiend, you wouldn't show up on a paladin's "radar" even if he DID point it at you.



Why are you talking D&D Next?

erok0809
2014-03-19, 11:24 PM
Why are you talking D&D Next?

Because the OP says that's what he's playing.

cakellene
2014-03-19, 11:35 PM
Because the OP says that's what he's playing.

Ah, missed that tidbit.