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View Full Version : Gamer Drama The DMing vs PC balancing act and burnout - Semi-rant/vent



Silus
2014-03-19, 03:18 AM
It's times like this that I sometimes feel that I'm in a rare minority of prospective DMs that can burn out without even running a game.

Please keep in mind that this is less of a "what should I do" thread and more of an almost desperate need to vent my frustrations to an audience that "gets it". Not saying that I don't appreciate the advice but, well, you get the idea.

Ok so I'm currently in the DMing rotation in my gaming group, though I'm pretty far down the line (Got a WoD, D6 Star Wars, another WoD game and possibly a 3.5 game ahead of me). Doesn't mean that I'm not planning for when my time comes to run a game. Honestly I'm the least experienced of the six of us (Only ever DMed 2 games) and I sometimes feel that I'm suffering because of it. I don't have the "experienced gamer" mentality, the one where the players are all "Well we've played so many 'good' characters, we wanna play evil characters".

Anyway, to the point of this little cry for help: Even though I'm like, a year or so away from running my game, I still cannot think of anything to run for any of the systems I know (3.5/PF, WoD, Palladium, FATE). Sure I've ideas of what I want to run, but I need to strike that balance between what I'd have fun DMing and what the players would have fun playing. What I really want to run is a fairly brutal Fallout: Equestria game using FATE, but all but, like, one of the players is hung up on the "It's ponies" aspect. And I swear to God the most...*UGH!* "fix" they've come up with is "Well just change the names and stuff so it's not ponies". Seriously, the conversion on that part alone would be so extensive that I may as well just run a regular Fallout game (Have to change location names, the key NPCs both past and present, equipment, general plot points, etc).

The only other two things I can think of is a 3.5 Warcraft game (I played WoW for ~4 years and still remember most of the stuff) or re-run the initial campaign I ran for the group. For those that are familiar with my threads, it's the one I was stressing about over like...5 separate threads.

But yeah, I, as a DM, can't think of anything I want to run that the PCs would play with minimum complaining/ribbing, and I can't think of anything the PCs would happily play that wouldn't cause me to want to kill things. Doesn't help that the players have given, like, zero input on what they would want me to try running :smallannoyed: Aside, of course, for "pre-made adventures" *Shudders* I...I just can't bring myself to run a module or Adventure Path. It makes me feel...wrong. And it's not that they want to play a pre-made adventure, it's that they feel that it would be easier for me as a new DM to run a pre-made game than something I'm actually working to craft. Never mind the players are the most difficult that I've ever had to play with :smallannoyed:

So yeah, advice, comments, questions *Shrugs* I just need to vent about this...

Mongobear
2014-03-19, 03:52 AM
Dude you have my sympathies entirely. I have been in your shoes before and under almost the exact same circumstances. At the time I had literally just started playing any form of tabletop RPG and I moved, thus joining a brand new gaming group. They had a set up system of 6 month rotations for "DM Duty" and since I was new, I got tossed into the rotation at the end of the current world, however due to their "lottery style" pick method I ended up being next and I totally paniced, thus feeling like I was in a similar situation that you are in.

Luckily a solution presented itself from a friend back where I used to live, and I shall now share it with you: Pick up an entirely new game that none of you have ever played and make your adventure around that. It will be new enough that most of your players should maintain interest due to the new system and rules that it wont become old, and you dont have to worry about missing something since everyone will be also on the watch for something they might have missed.

Going off of the few games you have listed, If you are able, I suggest the Warhammer 40k: Dark Heresy RPG. The setting is different enough from the games you have listed(other than Star Wars) and the entire game can be played with pair of d10. Also, the entire game is ready to play with the one Core Rulebook, and as long as you limit it to the content therein, you wont have to worry about anything complex. If you have a large enough Gaming Store in your area, you could probably even pick up a used copy fairly cheap, I got mine this way for $15, or maybe even borrow someones if you know of anyone that would be willing to lend it out.

Hopefully this helps, or at least sparks some thought to get you imagination going for a game to run.

Actana
2014-03-19, 04:02 AM
You're definitely not alone in this. I suffer from the exact same thing every time I'm in between running games. Not so much advice to offer, but venting on my own situation.

Right now I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with my current game that I'm starting up. After a lot of indecision between a classic fantasy story with Fate or a politically charged 4e Eberron game featuring multiple smaller groups, I did eventually decide on the 4e one. Problem is, I have no idea what I want to do with the game or where I want to take it. It doesn't help that I'm playing with MapTool and the prepwork for 4e borders on ridiculously high. Fate wouldn't have that problem, but I just can't get myself invested in the overall story I'd be telling - there's just nothing compelling or interesting about it, whereas the 4e one has a ton of themes and ideologies that I'd be highly interested in exploring.

As it stands, I had the problem of having to decide between an uninteresting story with a system light on prepwork vs an interesting story with a system heavy on prepwork. Changing the system on either story wouldn't really work either. Since then I have decided fairly confidently on the 4e game, but between trying to find players, getting them to create characters and setting the whole thing up it's reminding me of the parts of 4e I like the least: prepping for the game.

Then we get to the part where there are at least a dozen other game ideas I have and would like to try out, and those just keep prodding in when I'm trying to settle with a single game.

Silus
2014-03-19, 04:03 AM
Well lucky for me the guy that hosts the weekly games has the 40k books on his bookshelves, though I think I'll see about doing the rounds at the local used-bookstores first.

I think what I really wanna run is less "OMG PONIES" and more in the vein of....I dunno, "corrupted innocence". Like Fallout Equestria, mostly because of the juxtaposition between the family-friendly, pastel colored ponies and the harsh, brutal wasteland where everything can, and likely will, kill you (or worse). Like if there were rules for an American McGee's Alice/Madness Returns game, I'd probably want to run that.

Problem is, I'd likely have to homebrew a lot of stuff to make it all work and the other players already tease/pick on me for what I've already homebrewed and I really don't wanna give them more fuel for the fire :smallannoyed:

Mongobear
2014-03-19, 04:10 AM
I think what I really wanna run is less "OMG PONIES" and more in the vein of....I dunno, "corrupted innocence". Like Fallout Equestria, mostly because of the juxtaposition between the family-friendly, pastel colored ponies and the harsh, brutal wasteland where everything can, and likely will, kill you (or worse).


If this is a key feature of what you'd be looking for, I would almost instantly suggest any of the WHF/WH40K RPGs they are very set up against the players. There's a reason the setting is referred to as grimdark, one false move in any aspect of a well set up story can cause death from many different angels, maybe even on a plaetary scale.

BWR
2014-03-19, 05:54 AM
Sinec you already seem to have tried the normal 'talk to your players' advice I give, I can only say you have my sympathies.

You might try something radically new. Find a setting, and system, you have no experience with and just give it a shot. Go into your FLGS, look at a new game you've never tried before, buy it and run it. Find something old and out of print and try it. Because right now it seems you are limiting yourself to what you know. Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, but sometimes just getting out of your comfort zone and your existing ideas is just what's needed to rekindle the flame.

Mastikator
2014-03-19, 07:43 AM
I sympathize, with the players. I probably wouldn't be able to take a Pony game seriously.

I'd play it, but throughout the game I wouldn't be able to take anything seriously.

I do empathize with you on the issue that the players give zero input but still complain. I know all too well how frustrating it is, it's very easy to dismiss any complains when that happens.

DCraw
2014-03-19, 08:03 AM
Well lucky for me the guy that hosts the weekly games has the 40k books on his bookshelves, though I think I'll see about doing the rounds at the local used-bookstores first.

I think what I really wanna run is less "OMG PONIES" and more in the vein of....I dunno, "corrupted innocence". Like Fallout Equestria, mostly because of the juxtaposition between the family-friendly, pastel colored ponies and the harsh, brutal wasteland where everything can, and likely will, kill you (or worse). Like if there were rules for an American McGee's Alice/Madness Returns game, I'd probably want to run that.

Problem is, I'd likely have to homebrew a lot of stuff to make it all work and the other players already tease/pick on me for what I've already homebrewed and I really don't wanna give them more fuel for the fire :smallannoyed:

Well, another way of capturing that "corrupted innocence" feel would be to take a lead from the Fallout videogames and subvert the optimistic views of the 50s - although you'd probably need to play it up to get through to your players. Think Fallout: Leave it to Beaver, or Fallout: Brady Bunch. If you keep the NPCs true to the source material (ie, have the NPCs act like the Brady family) they should juxtapose nicely against your standard murderhobo PCs.

Beware of getting a bit heavy handed with this, though.

Alternatively, you could play a realistic version of Avatar: The Last Airbender. This would work nicely in Exalted, with benders being Terrestrial Exalts. If you think about it, the Fire Nation committed genocide at least once, and tried for a second, third and fourth (arguably succeeding with the second). Add in everything else that would have gone on on or off screen (slavery, rape, brainwashing, extreme nationalism etc). Played straight this setting can be plenty dark. All from a family show. It's a bit less obvious in its juxtapositions, but it could be interesting.

[edit]: Sorry, I just saw that Exalted is not on the list of games you know. It's a modified version of Storyteller, so you should be able to pick it up quickly if you know WoD, but you'd have to track down the source books. You'd also have to refluff it, of course. Banning all forms of exalts except for terrestrials will help, as will banning most weapons. Just rule that they can describe themselves as using whatever weapons they want, but they still follow the martial arts rules. Then you basically just need to rename the charms and ignore the anima flare rules.

JeenLeen
2014-03-19, 08:11 AM
I've felt burnout from DMing as well.

One point of advice/suggestion: have you asked if it's okay if you drop out of the DM rotation? I don't suggest this if it would build resentment from the other players, but if the others like DMing and you (at this moment and for this group's preferences) do not, then it seems fair that you should not DM. If they are okay with skipping your turn this round, then that sounds like a win-win.

In my group, we rotate DMs in a fashion. One guy is usually DM, but some of us take an occasional game to give him a break. One player doesn't seem interested in DMing at all, and we're all cool with that.

Rhynn
2014-03-19, 08:52 AM
I sympathize, with the players. I probably wouldn't be able to take a Pony game seriously.

Same here; neither I nor anyone I play with would go for the idea. The only reason I can even imagine non-fans possibly playing such a game is that Bunnies & Burrows exists - but I'm pretty sure that one only appealed to fans of Watership Down, too...

Anyway, just run something simple; a lot of people make things more complicated than they need to be. Take a module like The Keep on the Borderlands, The Village of Hommlet, Under Illefarn, The Lost City, convert it to your system and setting of choice as necessary, and develop all those plot hooks and loose threads that are everywhere in those modules. Don't plan things out from the start, just give the players something simple, straightforward, but challenging and open to start with, and a lot of room to direct their own interest.

NichG
2014-03-19, 08:59 AM
This does require some homebrewing, so maybe you wouldn't want to do it, but...

Why not run WoD 'guess-the-splat' crossed with shades of Equilibrium and Puella Magi Madoka? Basically tell the players 'we're playing mortals in the year 3015, where science and society have solved all the problems with the world and people live in a utopia'. Then the PCs start to develop super powers; free super powers with no strings attached! Pull this from your favorite splat, but relabel things and keep the 'morality' trait and the downsides hidden.

The utopian government has encountered this before, and it 'makes use' of people like the PCs, recruiting them into special problem-solving units to use their powers for the good of society. And I don't mean 'hunting down and killing stuff' - not yet at least. Have everything run like episodes of Star Trek, where there are real problems and the super powers help rescue people from natural disasters, resolve things, etc. However, as the players use their powers, the hidden parts of the whatever-WoD-splat-you-chose mechanics start to kick in and start to push them around (maybe Promethean would be best?). And then the government that was helping them help others turns on them, as they're a 'problem to be solved'. Its all stuff that is presented to seem utterly humane if you hear about it second-hand, but utterly awful if its happening to you (forced existence reassignment therapy - we give you a new body so you don't have to deal with all these troubling super powers!) and things like that.

Or maybe the government is happy to keep on going, even helping the PCs pay the costs of their super-powers, but in ways that are horrific if you think about this going on all the time. 'Sure, you need blood to make your stuff work; here's a neural-stapled warmbody from social reassignment for you to munch on, now lets go save those puppies! I'll call the news crew...'

The trick is to make the utopian/dystopian justification seem natural and not forced, since 'All our problems have been solved - why do we still have a lower class being abused by shady government programs?!' could be a reasonable objection. Basically you need the utopian exterior to be backed up with some really horrific things done to offset the reality of the world and protect _some_ people from them, but not all. Maybe they didn't really solve AI, and all of those 'robots' that serve people are actually vat-grown human brains? Maybe there are various renegades who aren't willing to accept some of the constraints needed to make the utopia work, and conflict with them is more brutal and inhumane than the utopian facade would suggest (shades of Ender's Game - 'sorry, we discovered that your brother is a Third, he will need to be... reassigned'). Heck, maybe it really is utopia and the government is nice and everything, and then the supernatural force behind the PCs causes other supers to manifest, everything breaks, and you go post-apocalyptic.

The Insanity
2014-03-19, 08:59 AM
What's wrong with pre-made adventures?

SimonMoon6
2014-03-19, 11:01 AM
In general, I've found that the games I've run that have been the most fun for the players were the games where I ran the sort of game that *I* wanted to play in. When you really enjoy something and are able to bring that same enthusiasm to the players, it's magical.

Unfortunately, this also meant that when it was someone else's turn to run a game, they'd never run that sort of game (the sort of game I wanted to play) because "well, we've already played that sort of game".

Jay R
2014-03-19, 11:37 AM
You've got a year. There's no hurry.

Go re-read some favorite books, or better yet, some new books from favorite authors. Don't mine them for ideas; read them for fun.

One of two things will happen. Either ideas will happen without you planning it, or you will relax and be able to approach it three months from now with a fresh attitude, a head full of adventures, and less pressure.

Either is good.

sakuuya
2014-03-19, 12:06 PM
This does require some homebrewing, so maybe you wouldn't want to do it, but...

Why not run WoD 'guess-the-splat' crossed with shades of Equilibrium and Puella Magi Madoka? Basically tell the players 'we're playing mortals in the year 3015, where science and society have solved all the problems with the world and people live in a utopia'. Then the PCs start to develop super powers; free super powers with no strings attached! Pull this from your favorite splat, but relabel things and keep the 'morality' trait and the downsides hidden.

The utopian government has encountered this before, and it 'makes use' of people like the PCs, recruiting them into special problem-solving units to use their powers for the good of society. And I don't mean 'hunting down and killing stuff' - not yet at least. Have everything run like episodes of Star Trek, where there are real problems and the super powers help rescue people from natural disasters, resolve things, etc. However, as the players use their powers, the hidden parts of the whatever-WoD-splat-you-chose mechanics start to kick in and start to push them around (maybe Promethean would be best?). And then the government that was helping them help others turns on them, as they're a 'problem to be solved'. Its all stuff that is presented to seem utterly humane if you hear about it second-hand, but utterly awful if its happening to you (forced existence reassignment therapy - we give you a new body so you don't have to deal with all these troubling super powers!) and things like that.

Or maybe the government is happy to keep on going, even helping the PCs pay the costs of their super-powers, but in ways that are horrific if you think about this going on all the time. 'Sure, you need blood to make your stuff work; here's a neural-stapled warmbody from social reassignment for you to munch on, now lets go save those puppies! I'll call the news crew...'

The trick is to make the utopian/dystopian justification seem natural and not forced, since 'All our problems have been solved - why do we still have a lower class being abused by shady government programs?!' could be a reasonable objection. Basically you need the utopian exterior to be backed up with some really horrific things done to offset the reality of the world and protect _some_ people from them, but not all. Maybe they didn't really solve AI, and all of those 'robots' that serve people are actually vat-grown human brains? Maybe there are various renegades who aren't willing to accept some of the constraints needed to make the utopia work, and conflict with them is more brutal and inhumane than the utopian facade would suggest (shades of Ender's Game - 'sorry, we discovered that your brother is a Third, he will need to be... reassigned'). Heck, maybe it really is utopia and the government is nice and everything, and then the supernatural force behind the PCs causes other supers to manifest, everything breaks, and you go post-apocalyptic.

If you wanted to try something like this and don't mind learning a new system, there's a Japanese game called Double Cross that would work really well for it--characters get superpowers from a virus that slowly turns them into monsters the more they use their abilities. And since the players won't know the system going in, they won't be primed to suspect that not everything is what it appears to be.

Airk
2014-03-19, 01:03 PM
One of the things immediately jumps out at me as a bit odd is...why are all your ideas based on licensed properties? ("Fallout meets MLP" or "World of Warcraft")?

Can't you do something that's a little more "inspired by" and a little less "Hey guys, it's My Little Pony."?

Knaight
2014-03-19, 01:19 PM
One point of advice/suggestion: have you asked if it's okay if you drop out of the DM rotation? I don't suggest this if it would build resentment from the other players, but if the others like DMing and you (at this moment and for this group's preferences) do not, then it seems fair that you should not DM. If they are okay with skipping your turn this round, then that sounds like a win-win.

I'm going to back this idea. Your group sounds a bit difficult, and the taste overlap is low enough that there are potentially problems. That said, it might not be necessary - you could ask them to knock it the heck off with the constant criticism and mockery, and if they do so lots of your problems go away.

As for finding something to run, you've got a year. I strongly suspect inspiration will show up. I recommend looking into new games*, and seeing if anything in particular inspires you, along with the reading Jay R mentioned.

*Personally, I keep a few on hand that I reread parts of when I want inspiration. REIGN is stupidly good at that, but there are others.

Silus
2014-03-19, 02:12 PM
One of the things immediately jumps out at me as a bit odd is...why are all your ideas based on licensed properties? ("Fallout meets MLP" or "World of Warcraft")?

Can't you do something that's a little more "inspired by" and a little less "Hey guys, it's My Little Pony."?

Well the Fallout Equestria thing would be run in FATE, which from what I understand is flexible enough to accommodate it. As for the Warcraft game, they actually released a series of 3.5 books for the setting (I've got a good grip on 3.5 and the Warcraft setting so I've got that going for me).

And could you give an example or two of the "inspired by"...thing? It's early for me and I can't seem to wrap my head around it.


What's wrong with pre-made adventures?

I mean, I could probably do a one-shot (There's a pair of 3.5 ones I'm kinda itchin' to run) but...I dunno, it doesn't scratch that "Let's be creative" itch that I get when I DM. It's less of a creative endeavor and more following a script in my mind.



In general, I've found that the games I've run that have been the most fun for the players were the games where I ran the sort of game that *I* wanted to play in. When you really enjoy something and are able to bring that same enthusiasm to the players, it's magical.

Unfortunately, this also meant that when it was someone else's turn to run a game, they'd never run that sort of game (the sort of game I wanted to play) because "well, we've already played that sort of game".

Aye, that's like me with 3rd party material. I've found a TON of 3rd party Pathfinder stuff on Drive Thru RPG that I wanna use, but no Pathfinder DM I've talked to (save one) will let me use it, often saying "Well when you run a game, you can use it". Yeah, it ain't the same. :smallannoyed:


I'm going to back this idea. Your group sounds a bit difficult, and the taste overlap is low enough that there are potentially problems. That said, it might not be necessary - you could ask them to knock it the heck off with the constant criticism and mockery, and if they do so lots of your problems go away.

As for finding something to run, you've got a year. I strongly suspect inspiration will show up. I recommend looking into new games*, and seeing if anything in particular inspires you, along with the reading Jay R mentioned.

*Personally, I keep a few on hand that I reread parts of when I want inspiration. REIGN is stupidly good at that, but there are others.

I'm already looking at dropping from the rotation, and I do have some books I've been meaning to get around to (I'm lookin' at you Ms. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH). Could re-read the Leviathan series, see about running something like that. *Shrugs*

Thrudd
2014-03-19, 02:52 PM
I sympathize, with the players. I probably wouldn't be able to take a Pony game seriously.


Yes. I think it is unrealistic to expect that most people would be interested in a ponies game, regardless of how you try to dress it up (dystopian ponies, post apocalyptic pones, d&d ponies, whatever). You need to reserve that idea for if/when you get together with a group of other pony fans.

Read some more books, watch some old sci-fi and fantasy movies, look through all sorts of different RPG books, and get inspired. GM'ing does not need to be as stress-inducing as this. If you are stressed out about coming up with something deep and serious that the players will take seriously for your game concept, go the other way and pick something light and fun that they don't need to be serious about.
Over the top action from movies or cartoons can work for this. Pick a setting that has a lot of built-in assumptions so you don't need to do a lot of designing beforehand and players pretty much know what to expect, and let the creativity come from the design of the adventure. A game that is high energy and action and low on hard questions and deep characterization would require less prep on your part, less stress, and might even be fun for you and the players.
Work on your homebrew deep and serious game concept on the side, and break it out someday when it's ready and you're comfortable with it. There's no need to feel pressure about games, get back to the root purpose and have fun.

Silus
2014-03-19, 03:12 PM
Yes. I think it is unrealistic to expect that most people would be interested in a ponies game, regardless of how you try to dress it up (dystopian ponies, post apocalyptic pones, d&d ponies, whatever). You need to reserve that idea for if/when you get together with a group of other pony fans.

Read some more books, watch some old sci-fi and fantasy movies, look through all sorts of different RPG books, and get inspired. GM'ing does not need to be as stress-inducing as this. If you are stressed out about coming up with something deep and serious that the players will take seriously for your game concept, go the other way and pick something light and fun that they don't need to be serious about.
Over the top action from movies or cartoons can work for this. Pick a setting that has a lot of built-in assumptions so you don't need to do a lot of designing beforehand and players pretty much know what to expect, and let the creativity come from the design of the adventure. A game that is high energy and action and low on hard questions and deep characterization would require less prep on your part, less stress, and might even be fun for you and the players.
Work on your homebrew deep and serious game concept on the side, and break it out someday when it's ready and you're comfortable with it. There's no need to feel pressure about games, get back to the root purpose and have fun.

Oh I've given up trying to run the Ponies game for this group. Sure, I'd have fun, the the players would endlessly complain and tease to the point that I'd be burned out and wanting to stop by at least the second session. If the players ain't having fun, the DM probably ain't having fun, and vise-versa. Honestly, I'd have oodles more ideas that I could run with if I wasn't concerned about "Oh will the players like this?".

And it's not that I'm concerned with coming up with something deep and serious, it's that I find myself incapable of running something perceived as "simple" with this group. Someone on another website said this: "Aw. Sure, you can. Here's one that was the most popular. We called it the "Evil" Campaign. The goal: turn a good city into something evil/bad.". Sounds simple right? Pick it up and run with it. Yeah, my players would start questioning about all the levels of government, the makeup and strength of the military, the infrastructure of the city, law enforcement, etc.. All that, and my brain locks up because I don't know how to answer that off the cuff. So I need to plan and prep. Then I need to start prepping for other possible questions, and before you know it a simple concept has turned vastly more complex.

Edit: And I suppose I'll start trying to do some writing, get the whole Fallout Equestria thing out of my system.

Rhynn
2014-03-19, 03:23 PM
And could you give an example or two of the "inspired by"...thing? It's early for me and I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

One of my current campaign ideas lurking in the wings is heavily inspired by a big property. The setting is straightforward: there's a small kingdom, a royal castle and a town. The king has been driven mad by visions of doom and has disappeared. The abbot of the local monastery has been corrupted, and now dark things are being undertaken in the extensive undercrofts of the monastery. Meanwhile, chaotic humanoids have begun encroaching on the kingdom. Play begins around the time the dead start rising up, and things only get worse from there, as infernal forces encroach.

It was all built around the idea of "hey, that ruined monastery could make a great campaign centerpiece megadungeon."

The difference is that there are no direct references or borrowings; I've taken elements, rather than characters or plotlines. I could drop the campaign into just about any setting, too (heck, I could see making the monastery Buddhist-style and changing the whole feel of the campaign to a Chinese or Indian one).

My current campaign is Dark Sun plus Planet Algol plus Barsoom plus Caves of Qud plus Fallout/Wasteland plus Carcosa plus Dune, and then some. It's an unholy melange inspired by a lot of things, but not, as a whole, reminiscent of any one of them alone (well, except maybe Dark Sun, since I'm using the maps, cities, and basic structure of the setting, just with the details changed).


Read some more books, watch some old sci-fi and fantasy movies, look through all sorts of different RPG books, and get inspired. GM'ing does not need to be as stress-inducing as this. If you are stressed out about coming up with something deep and serious that the players will take seriously for your game concept, go the other way and pick something light and fun that they don't need to be serious about.

This is so very true. GMing can be really easy and straightforward. I took a day or two to convert B4 The Lost City for my system and we've gotten like 20+ hours of play from it so far (for our rather infrequent meetings). The previous campaign I put maybe 4 hours of work into between sessions and let the players carry it with their decisions and interest; I'd improvise (nothing difficult, just standard "okay, the innkeeper is like this" stuff) during the session, then develop everything between sessions and figure out how the PCs' decisions and actions can have visible consequences in future sessions.

I take what I suppose is a "workmanlike" attitude. Nevermind fancy or abstract or artistic ideas, I try to come up with stuff that's fun for my players and for me to play. I get to be plenty creative thinking up locations and characters and monsters, but none of it needs to be deep or artistic or significant: it's just a game, something to do while hanging out with the guys. Getting stuck on concept over execution doesn't do anyone any good.


Honestly, I'd have oodles more ideas that I could run with if I wasn't concerned about "Oh will the players like this?".

That's, like, the only criterion that matters, though.

Brookshw
2014-03-19, 03:27 PM
Ya know Silus, this isn't the first time you've posted about this group and you're concerns with them. It might be time to throw in the towel mate and look for alternatives.

The Insanity
2014-03-19, 03:30 PM
I mean, I could probably do a one-shot (There's a pair of 3.5 ones I'm kinda itchin' to run) but...I dunno, it doesn't scratch that "Let's be creative" itch that I get when I DM. It's less of a creative endeavor and more following a script in my mind.
You do know that you can, like, modify the pre-made adventures however you want, right?

Silus
2014-03-19, 03:33 PM
Ya know Silus, this isn't the first time you've posted about this group and you're concerns with them. It might be time to throw in the towel mate and look for alternatives.

Very true, very true indeed. Got a buddy at work who invited me to a lvl 20+ Mythic Pathfinder game, so I may try to latch onto that group if things go better.

Honestly though, this right now is just me stressing out due to figuring out both what I want to run and what the players want to play. I've the feeling that kinda issue will come up in other groups as well, but it's just more...annoying here.


You do know that you can, like, modify the pre-made adventures however you want, right?

I kinda figured that most pre-made things were balanced within themselves already. Like you can't really do much with, say, Rise of the Rune Lords without throwing off a good chunk of the story.

kyoryu
2014-03-19, 03:42 PM
Go through collaborative setting generation. I like A Spark in Fate Core (for Fate Core, obv, but using for other systems is almost a no-op)

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/117868/A-Spark-in-Fate-Core#_=_

Let your players come up with stuff that excites *them*. Then you'll have a custom-built setting for your players and what turns their cranks. A lot of work will still be done by you, but this generally causes players to get more invested in the setting, in my experience.

Best of all - it's free!

Silus
2014-03-19, 03:52 PM
Go through collaborative setting generation. I like A Spark in Fate Core (for Fate Core, obv, but using for other systems is almost a no-op)

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/117868/A-Spark-in-Fate-Core#_=_

Let your players come up with stuff that excites *them*. Then you'll have a custom-built setting for your players and what turns their cranks. A lot of work will still be done by you, but this generally causes players to get more invested in the setting, in my experience.

Best of all - it's free!

*Downloads at the speed of light*

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/216/566/tumblr_luei74eM5Q1qzo4v6o1_250.gif

kyoryu
2014-03-19, 04:02 PM
*Downloads at the speed of light*

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/216/566/tumblr_luei74eM5Q1qzo4v6o1_250.gif

I've used it to come up with the following settings:

A frontier sci-fi setting, where the players were uncovering ancient artifacts to discover the secrets of the ancients, and eventually fight against the enemies of the ancients.

A post-apocalyptic fantasy game where the characters were in a (literally) shattered world, and emerged from a city which was isolated and protected from the apocalypse by a magical shield, and fed through magical equipment... and now those were failing.

A modern urban fantasy game with a decidedly kitchen sink vibe to it, and a hefty dose of American Gods. Oh, and Cthulhu.

A modern sci-fi game similar to Fringe, which has the players investigating strange occurrences, many of which involve the sudden emergence of... creatures. Unnatural creatures that seem to be growing in size and power.

Hiro Protagonest
2014-03-19, 04:08 PM
...You could get Mouse Guard?

*sigh* I need to get Mouse Guard. Or the comics. Or both.

Knaight
2014-03-19, 04:22 PM
Go through collaborative setting generation. I like A Spark in Fate Core (for Fate Core, obv, but using for other systems is almost a no-op)

I favor Microscope for this, though it isn't free.

kyoryu
2014-03-19, 06:11 PM
Microscope is cool, too, but from what I've seen it tends to do more to create backstory, and less to create current, gameable issues.

Spark has a high focus on creating the overall "feel" of the world, and gameable issues/conflicts to seed actual play.

I think they'd actually work pretty well together.

I own both, though I haven't actually used Microscope in actual play, so I'm not *totally* makin' stuff up here, and my preference is based on evaluating both of them.

They're both really cool. I don't have anything bad to say about Microscope. I just think Spark is a bit better for coming up with the relevant stuff to actually make an interesting campaign.

Microscope would actually be pretty awesome, though, if I was going to do something like run a really old-school open-table kind of game. I think I'd prefer it for that style of game.

neonchameleon
2014-03-19, 09:59 PM
Anyway, to the point of this little cry for help: Even though I'm like, a year or so away from running my game, I still cannot think of anything to run for any of the systems I know (3.5/PF, WoD, Palladium, FATE). Sure I've ideas of what I want to run, but I need to strike that balance between what I'd have fun DMing and what the players would have fun playing. What I really want to run is a fairly brutal Fallout: Equestria game using FATE, but all but, like, one of the players is hung up on the "It's ponies" aspect.
...
But yeah, I, as a DM, can't think of anything I want to run that the PCs would play with minimum complaining/ribbing, and I can't think of anything the PCs would happily play that wouldn't cause me to want to kill things. Doesn't help that the players have given, like, zero input on what they would want me to try running :smallannoyed: Aside, of course, for "pre-made adventures" *Shudders*


Well lucky for me the guy that hosts the weekly games has the 40k books on his bookshelves, though I think I'll see about doing the rounds at the local used-bookstores first.

I think what I really wanna run is less "OMG PONIES" and more in the vein of....I dunno, "corrupted innocence". Like Fallout Equestria, mostly because of the juxtaposition between the family-friendly, pastel colored ponies and the harsh, brutal wasteland where everything can, and likely will, kill you (or worse). Like if there were rules for an American McGee's Alice/Madness Returns game, I'd probably want to run that.

Problem is, I'd likely have to homebrew a lot of stuff to make it all work and the other players already tease/pick on me for what I've already homebrewed and I really don't wanna give them more fuel for the fire :smallannoyed:


Go through collaborative setting generation.


*Downloads at the speed of light*

I think what you are looking for here is a game called Apocalypse World (http://apocalypse-world.com/).

1: It's post-apocalyptic and written with a sense of humour.
2: The GM is told explicitely not to prepare anything in advance. Setting will be created as part of character creation.
3: There are very few rules to remember (and the players roll all the dice) so it's easy to learn and plays like freeform+
4: There is incredible diversity in the character types. Anything from the Hardholder (who runs Bartertown?) to the creepy psychic Brainer. Anything from the Chopper and their motorcycle gang to the Skinner (artist or stripper). Anything from the Driver who's going to blow this town at the first opportunity to the Savvyhead and their ability to fix anything. Or from the sheer killing power of the Gunlugger to the Angel with syringes full of drugs to stitch people back together. And that's just in the core rules. There are literally dozens of additional playbooks to download.
5: Every action has consequences. You don't just choose to attack someone, you choose how to attack.

The setting is created in part by what the characters choose. If you have a Hardholder, they create their town. If you have a Chopper they create their motorcycle gang. Premade adventures? You don't have a premade world.

The Insanity
2014-03-20, 02:36 AM
I kinda figured that most pre-made things were balanced within themselves already. Like you can't really do much with, say, Rise of the Rune Lords without throwing off a good chunk of the story.
Most encounters in pre-made adventures are underpowered.
And what do you mean by "throwing off the story"? Changing the mechanical part doesn't need to have any significant impact on the story. You make some small tweaks and that's it. Like for example changing the levels of a goblin tribe or changing that goblin tribe into an orc tribe. The first is trivial and changes nothing story-wise, the second is easy. It's not really as hard as you might think it is.

Komatik
2014-03-20, 07:02 AM
One of my current campaign ideas lurking in the wings is heavily inspired by a big property. The setting is straightforward: there's a small kingdom, a royal castle and a town. The king has been driven mad by visions of doom and has disappeared. The abbot of the local monastery has been corrupted, and now dark things are being undertaken in the extensive undercrofts of the monastery. Meanwhile, chaotic humanoids have begun encroaching on the kingdom. Play begins around the time the dead start rising up, and things only get worse from there, as infernal forces encroach.

Do they serve fresh meat on the second floor?:smallbiggrin:

Jornophelanthas
2014-03-20, 08:10 AM
And it's not that I'm concerned with coming up with something deep and serious, it's that I find myself incapable of running something perceived as "simple" with this group. Someone on another website said this: "Aw. Sure, you can. Here's one that was the most popular. We called it the "Evil" Campaign. The goal: turn a good city into something evil/bad.". Sounds simple right? Pick it up and run with it. Yeah, my players would start questioning about all the levels of government, the makeup and strength of the military, the infrastructure of the city, law enforcement, etc.. All that, and my brain locks up because I don't know how to answer that off the cuff. So I need to plan and prep. Then I need to start prepping for other possible questions, and before you know it a simple concept has turned vastly more complex.

I recall seeing you ask this very question in a different thread before. The answer given then was this:

1. Make sure you have the (simple) basics of your setting prepared.
(e.g. Who rules the city and are they popular?)

2. If players want to know more than the basics, do NOT tell them off the bat, but tell them to find out in character. This will buy you time to prepare your answers. In short, teach the players to not get all information for free.
(e.g. If the players want to know the organization structure of the city's three main guilds, they would have to either approach members of each of the three guilds. If they want non-public information, they will probably have to infiltrate the guild.)

3. If you have to make something up on the fly, act like you all thought it up in advance. Fake some expert knowledge, and they will more readily accept your setting.

4. If your players are actively trying to find the holes in your setting so that they can exploit them at the expense of your plot and setting, ask them to stop it. If they won't, stop DM-ing for them.

Rhynn
2014-03-20, 04:01 PM
Do they serve fresh meat on the second floor?:smallbiggrin:

Nope, I really only (half-)stole one character... part of the "inspired by" deal.


[1. - 4.]

5. (or 3.5?) If they're asking you about something outside of your expertise or put you on the spot about something you haven't thought of, turn it around on them: "I don't know, why don't you tell me?" "Well, I'm not an expert on medieval military structures, so what do you think?" And so on.