Why are the gods scared of Pandorym?

[AnonymousPepper]

Isn't Pandorym psionic?

Don't the gods possess a certain artifact called the Annulus that instagibs any psionic creature, no questions asked?

I could see a god walking up to Pandorym, casting Celerity to make sure he acts first, casting extended Time Stop, concentrating with the artifact, releasing it on the turn it ends, and boom, no more Pandorym. GG, no re. Hell, anyone could do it if they had sufficient ranks in UMD, a metamagic feat, Metamagic Spell Trigger, a Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, a Ring of Spell Storing with Celerity, a Major Ring of Spell Storing with Time Stop, and the Annulus. All of which a god could easily grant to a mortal.

I fail to see where Pandorym poses a threat to anything.

Pandorym is from Elder Evils, by the way.

[The Insanity]

Fiat. Power of Plot.

[hamishspence]

The Annulus can nullify beings in the "demigod or greater" range (being destroyed in the process:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus

but if Pandorym, when both parts are put back together, is closer to an Overdeity, it might not be possible.

There's also the issue of getting hold of the artifact in the first place.

[AnonymousPepper]

Fiat. Power of Plot.

That's what I said to my DM when he brought this up to me (speaking of which, should I be scared that he was reading Elder Evils? >_>), but... the Annulus is just 2stronk. There's literally no reason that the gods wouldn't use it on Pandorym if he posed that big of a threat otherwise.

[AnonymousPepper]

The Annulus can nullify beings in the "demigod or greater" range (being destroyed in the process:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus

but if Pandorym, when both parts are put back together, is closer to an Overdeity, it might not be possible.

There's also the issue of getting hold of the artifact in the first place.

At least by RAW, "demigod or greater" means it works at the cost of the item, no?

[hamishspence]

In theory. In practice, I could see DMs ruling that "it doesn't work on Ao - even if he's psionic in this campaign"

Quite apart from the issue of finding him in the first place.

[The Prince of Cats]

Isn't Pandorym psionic?
Yeah... I think you mistake 'turned to dust' with truly destroyed. We are talking about a being that was denied access to its body and was not destroyed, so having its body in a few million pieces will just be a minor inconvenience.

Epic, god-like psionic powers mean a very powerful mind and I would not be surprised if pulling itself back together again would be easy enough. And then it gets its hands on the Annulus. It'll be another year before it can be used on Pandorym again in such a way, but those other powers (especially enhanced by a huge psionic power pool) are scary...

[Shinken]

Yeah... I think you mistake 'turned to dust' with truly destroyed. We are talking about a being that was denied access to its body and was not destroyed, so having its body in a few million pieces will just be a minor inconvenience.

Epic, god-like psionic powers mean a very powerful mind and I would not be surprised if pulling itself back together again would be easy enough. And then it gets its hands on the Annulus. It'll be another year before it can be used on Pandorym again in such a way, but those other powers (especially enhanced by a huge psionic power pool) are scary...

That makes a lot of sense. I might use it for my next campaign.

[The Insanity]

Pandorym might be psionic in his weaker version, but who knows if he'll still be psionic, rather than simply divine or "unspecified", at full power. IIRC there are no stats for Overdeity Pandorym, so he could be anything really.

[MadGreenSon]

Plus, Pandorym by it's very nature is a thing that messes with the power of gods. All the Elder Evils do. Otherwise the book would have been "[Elder Evil] shows up [god A] shows up and kills it with his buddies.

Elder Evils are paradoxically too strong in a way that impairs gods more than mortals.

Here's a bad analogy: You have the power to utterly beat the hell out of master martial artists, pro boxers and others experienced in fighting, but if you go up against a guy with zero training you have to rely solely on your formidable physical development without the benefit of your pro-fighter beating abilities.

The Elder Evils are all such blasphemies of supernatural potency that their existence and presence interferes with gods, it's right there in the book.

[fuzzybits]

I'm assuming you're looking at the Mind Shard of Pandorym stats, which is supposed to only be a small part of Pandorym, but considered a separate entity, though I'm not sure if using Annulus on that would destroy Annulus.

However I'd like to point out that Pandorym manifests as a sphere of annihilation and doesn't actually exist in reality. So you can target the manifestation but not necessarily Pandorym himself.


Pandorym’s physical component does not truly exist as a body in the multiverse but is a conduit to the incomprehen- sible reality of its home. It manifests as a 30-foot-diameter sphere of annihilation (DMG 279), but no being—not even a deity—can control it, even using a talisman of the sphere.

I'm unsure what to do about it's mind though.


Also, if you just wanted to be evil with your party you can employ the rules about how to use Pandorym if your campaign doesn't support psionics:


PANDORYM WITHOUT PSIONICS
The mind shard of Pandorym is an intensely powerful psionic being. If your campaign does not use psionics, treat the mind shard as a sorcerer focusing on enchantment spells.
Replace vampiric ego whip with vampiric ray of enfeeblement, with the same restrictions on its use; the mind shard regains
a spell slot of a level equal to one-half the points of Strength damage dealt. Its psi-like abilities and metapsionic feats become spell-like abilities and metamagic feats. Instead of swift focus, the mind shard has the extraordinary ability to apply metamagic feats it knows to its spells without increasing casting time.

[Brookshw]

At least by RAW, "demigod or greater" means it works at the cost of the item, no?

Well, that's kinda the problem with unstatted beings which the final form is. Could very well simply have an immunity that exempts it. Who knows. Fiat sound like a good enough reason for me though that's a good point Prince of Cats brings up.

[Alleran]

The shard of Pandorym's mind is a psionic creature. The full mind of Pandorym may well not be, since it and Pandorym's full power (i.e. mind linked with body once more) are unstatted. Gods have statblocks. If something does not have a statblock, how are you going to kill it? It becomes pure fiat.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You presume the gods possess Annulus or know where its located. And perhaps Pandorym can stowaway and act during someone else's Time Stop like Demogorgan could in Baldur's Gate II Throne of Bhaal.

[Shining Wrath]

From the description of Annulus:


The wielder can access all powers of the Annulus at manifester level 20th.

So, you must add to your list of qualifications for unleashing Annulus upon Pandorym that the wielder themselves be a capable psion-type. That actually cuts the list of gods who are capable of using Annulus down by quite a bit.

I'd say a creature with immense power than can only be stopped by one artifact which only a select few can wield is at least modestly scary.

[Oliver Veyrac]

Isn't Pandorym psionic?

Don't the gods possess a certain artifact called the Annulus that instagibs any psionic creature, no questions asked?



Remember this, deities are a psionic race also. According to the psionics handbook any creature with detect thoughts, telekinesis, etc is psionic. Which means it can also be used against deities.

[Shinken]

You presume the gods possess Annulus or know where its located. And perhaps Pandorym can stowaway and act during someone else's Time Stop like Demogorgan could in Baldur's Gate II Throne of Bhaal.

That thing was evil, man.

[Urpriest]

From the description of Annulus:



So, you must add to your list of qualifications for unleashing Annulus upon Pandorym that the wielder themselves be a capable psion-type. That actually cuts the list of gods who are capable of using Annulus down by quite a bit.

I'd say a creature with immense power than can only be stopped by one artifact which only a select few can wield is at least modestly scary.

That just means that the item's ML is 20.

That said, in what sense do the gods "have" the Annulus? I didn't think the gods were the sort to share possessions anyway.

[FenAseph]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, I have joined just to reply here, because I'm interested about Pandorym, having read the book Elder Evils. Is it even close to Ao (when it's reunited)?
The book says that if Pandorym is reunited, nothing will remain of this reality. This made me to wonder if Ao could stop Pandorym. Perhaps Ao will allow Pandorym to destroy the reality, then he will create a new reality?
And sorry if my English is unclear, it's not my native language.

[Flickerdart]

Surely destroying the Shard is enough - if Pandorym is incomplete, he can't be reunited.

[FenAseph]

Surely destroying the Shard is enough - if Pandorym is incomplete, he can't be reunited.

You're referring to the mind shard of Pandorym? Then you're mistaken. The book says that the destruction of the mind shard doesn't affect Pandorym's mind in any way. Anyway, the mind shard has a limited natural existence (24 hrs), so it is self-destructive, so to speak. And, again, this doesn't affect Pandorym's mind.

[Sewercop]

I dont see why the gods carre, send the magister wich is immune to psionics and go to town.

[Flickerdart]

You're referring to the mind shard of Pandorym? Then you're mistaken. The book says that the destruction of the mind shard doesn't affect Pandorym's mind in any way. Anyway, the mind shard has a limited natural existence (24 hrs), so it is self-destructive, so to speak. And, again, this doesn't affect Pandorym's mind.
What's the point of fighting it, then?

[AuraTwilight]

Because the mind shards use those 24 hours to find and corrupt people to help free the main entity and otherwise advance the Elder Evil's signs of arrival?

[Envyus]

What's the point of fighting it, then?

The point is that if the Crystal containing Pandorym's mind is shattered it will reunite with it's Sphere of Annihilation body. And the mind shards are trying to kill you so you can't stop the crazy Inevitable from breaking the Crystal.

The basic plot is this. An Inevitable saw that the contract with Pandorym was broken so it set off to fix this and free it despite that it would result in the destruction of a reality. Every time the Inevitable was destroyed it would be remade stronger then last time and try again and you fight it on it's 7th cycle were it is smashing the Crystal trying to free the mind. Shards of the crystal would fall off as a result of being smashed by the Inevitable and become Mind shards. So when you are there you have to destroy the Inevitable before it breaks the crystal while Mind shards are attacking you.

[Rubik]

Yeah... I think you mistake 'turned to dust' with truly destroyed. We are talking about a being that was denied access to its body and was not destroyed, so having its body in a few million pieces will just be a minor inconvenience.

Epic, god-like psionic powers mean a very powerful mind and I would not be surprised if pulling itself back together again would be easy enough. And then it gets its hands on the Annulus. It'll be another year before it can be used on Pandorym again in such a way, but those other powers (especially enhanced by a huge psionic power pool) are scary...I can take out Pandorym with a monk. He's not particularly frightening.

At least, his mind isn't.

[georgie_leech]

I can take out Pandorym with a monk. He's not particularly frightening.

At least, his mind isn't.

To be fair, said Monk is built with a level of op-fu that would kill most printed things in the game, assuming they're on the same plane of existence.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"The wielder specifies a target or targets within a 100-foot radius, ..... Nonpsionic creatures and items are unaffected, as are nontargeted beings,"

Pandorym itself is not a targetable entity, thus it is immune to destruction by the Annulus. Unless of course his mind were merged with his body, in which case you would never get a chance to activate the Annulus as he would destroy all the gods and the entire campaign setting within a chain of Temporal Accelerations.

Come to think of it, the 20th level Psion with Overchannel and Metapower: Persistent Timeless Body could be immune to the Annulus (the only thing capable of posing a threat to him outside that daily standard-action window) as long as he were untargetable by it.

BG2:ToB had both Demogorgon and the final boss that turned Time Stop into a crowd-control-your-other-five-party-members instead of any sort of an advantage. I never bothered to prepare Time Stop in that game anyway, I played brute force all the way with meteors. Three Flame Arrows on a Spell Sequencer could one-shot the big Beholders, and I used Haste to run my party up on the dragon in Suldanesselar and paused the game before it started its dialogue. I clicked three of those on it and the projectile animations went out and froze in the air when it started talking. They hit just before its protection spells went up, and it dropped dead instantly. What made it even better was that one of my friends who'd played that happened to stop by right before that and I told him, "Watch this, I'm going to one-shot this dragon."

[TeslaJr]

I can take out Pandorym with a monk. He's not particularly frightening.

At least, his mind isn't.

I doubt anyone could take on the fully formed Pandorym, except maybe several deities working together. The stats in the book are just for a small sliver of its mind.

[CIDE]

True Pandorym is essentially the Lady of Pain. An unstatted thing powered entirely by plot and fiat. It's as strong or as weak as the story teller needs it to be. Which for the purpose of Elder Evils it spells the end of the campaign realm and the death of the gods. Thus, the gods lose. No shenanigans, nothing with stats, no aleax, nada. None of it worked to save the lives of the deities.

[Raven777]

What about Lady of Pain vs Pandorym?

[Mystic Muse]

What about Lady of Pain vs Pandorym?

It results in a Romantic comedy that actually manages to be good?

[FenAseph]

It results in a Romantic comedy that actually manages to be good?

Nope, Pandorym hates the gods, and if Lady of Pain is an overdeity, it results in a romantic tragedy, as Pandorym will kill Lady of Pain.

[Clistenes]

Nope, Pandorym hates the gods, and if Lady of Pain is an overdeity, it results in a romantic tragedy, as Pandorym will kill Lady of Pain.

Or they furiously hump, breaking the minds of all the inhabitants of the Cage, who will pull out their own eyes and eat them before jumping into the nearest portal and spend screaming every second of the rest of their lives (that is, until they are killed or die of starvation because they can't scream and eat at the same time).

[Vedhin]

Lady of Pain gets irritated at Pandorym invading Sigil with its overdeity-esque power level and mazes/kills it.

But in general, reformed Pandorym's stats are: You Lose. Game Over. Please Insert Quarter.

[Alleran]

Nope, Pandorym hates the gods, and if Lady of Pain is an overdeity, it results in a romantic tragedy, as Pandorym will kill Lady of Pain.
Her Serenity isn't a deity, berk. :smalltongue:

[FenAseph]

Her Serenity isn't a deity, berk. :smalltongue:

Maybe she is a deity, berk. :smalltongue:

Seriously, nobody knows what she is. But this is off-topic.

Returning to Pandorym, a story that will end with its release would be very interesting. I'd like to read about the epic battle between the gods and Pandorym. And the destruction of the Realms, and their reinvention.

[afroakuma]

Maybe she is a deity, berk. :smalltongue:

Oh no, she's definitely not. That much has been made clear.

[iceman10058]

she has the power of a diety with out being divine or having a divine rank, due to the fact she wants no worshipers.

[FenAseph]

Is Sigil part of the Realms? If so, Pandorym could kill Lady of Pain, because it is supposed to destroy the entire Realms.

[Alleran]

Is Sigil part of the Realms?
No. The "Realms" can refer to Faerun specifically, the planet of Toril as a whole (which includes places like Kara-Tur and Zakhara) and the rest of Realmspace (i.e. the crystal sphere in its entirety), or various things in between.

[The Oni]

There's no guarantee that destroying Sigil would destroy LoP. In fact, it might just *free* her instead.

[Vedhin]

There's no guarantee that destroying Sigil would destroy LoP. In fact, it might just *free* her instead.

Now there's a campaign idea.

Except for the fact that Sigil is sort of the linchpin that keeps the Great Wheel from disintegrating, or something like that.

Maybe if it disintegrated slowly, and the players had to fix it...

[Dr. Azkur]

This thread is awesome...

By the way, I would argue that Pandorym is not actually psionic, not ever anything actually like it, it's just that we are not going to invent a new parallel of casting and psionics just for an Elder Evil. They don't have psionics or magic where Pandorym is from, but psionics is the cleanest way to handle his powers. Since he's not psionic, the Annulus is Useluss.

This is the Far Realm we're talking about, people. In fact, I would find it utterly ridiculous if they had the exact same psionic system that we have.

[MeiLeTeng]

This is the Far Realm we're talking about, people. In fact, I would find it utterly ridiculous if they had the exact same psionic system that we have.

Pandorym isn't from the Far Realm.

[Raven777]

He's from a place perpendicular to reality.

[RavynsLand]

Maybe he just says really hurtful things whenever he gets invited to parties.

[iceman10058]

Maybe he just says really hurtful things whenever he gets invited to parties.

or is the person that goes there to pick fights cause he gets bored, and usually wins.

[FenAseph]

He's from a place perpendicular to reality.

This must be an interesting place.
Answering to the OP's question, the gods are scared of Pandorym because:
-It is, at its full power, much more powerful than the deities together.
-It wants to completely destroy the gods. Completely in the sense that it will kill the souls of the gods, their essences. It wants to send the gods to eternal oblivion.
-It will destroy the Universe.

These aren't enough reasons?

[Gemini476]

This must be an interesting place.
Answering to the OP's question, the gods are scared of Pandorym because:
-It is, at its full power, much more powerful than the deities together.
-It wants to completely destroy the gods. Completely in the sense that it will kill the souls of the gods, their essences. It wants to send the gods to eternal oblivion.
-It will destroy the Universe.

These aren't enough reasons?
Well, Pandorym's motivation is pretty much just to kill the gods to fulfill it's end of the contract and then go back home. He only goes on his omnicidal rampage if he's stopped from doing one of those two, especially the latter.

Incidentally, the solution that the gods had was pretty much just to batten down all hatches to the Prime Material and let Pandorym eat it, if his Sign is any indication. I'm pretty sure that Reality Revision lets him get through it, though.

[Envyus]

Well, Pandorym's motivation is pretty much just to kill the gods to fulfill it's end of the contract and then go back home. He only goes on his omnicidal rampage if he's stopped from doing one of those two, especially the latter.

Incidentally, the solution that the gods had was pretty much just to batten down all hatches to the Prime Material and let Pandorym eat it, if his Sign is any indication. I'm pretty sure that Reality Revision lets him get through it, though.

The Gods did not trap Pandorym however and have no power over him they can't even use their divine power to find out were he is.

[Melcar]

What I have never understood was how can a being be more powerful than all the gods combined and still be split and imprisoned by mortal artificers? How did they even get information about this creature? And since, to my knowledge, AO has complete power within his own crystal sphere could this Pandorym pose any threat? Personally I have never liked the idea of something that powerful and yet weak enough to be imprisoned by mortals. That to me is strange. And also the fact that somehow the Imaskar was more clever that the gods. And even more powerful. I don’t know what level spells they cast to create the godwall, but if they can imprison pandorym and the deities can’t do nothing about the pandorym then why did the imaskar need to get such a being in the first place when they were obviously more powerful than the gods?

The whole thing makes no sense to me.

[AnonymousPepper]

This must be an interesting place.
Answering to the OP's question, the gods are scared of Pandorym because:
-It is, at its full power, much more powerful than the deities together.
-It wants to completely destroy the gods. Completely in the sense that it will kill the souls of the gods, their essences. It wants to send the gods to eternal oblivion.
-It will destroy the Universe.

These aren't enough reasons?

Well, yeah, but, my point, or rather that of my esteemed friend RPGaddict28 aka one of my 3.5 DMs (incidentally, the fact that he's reading EE has me somewhat scared), was that, despite all this, the gods have an artifact that no-questions-asked instagibs any psionic creature.

[Eldan]

What I have never understood was how can a being be more powerful than all the gods combined and still be split and imprisoned by mortal artificers? How did they even get information about this creature? And since, to my knowledge, AO has complete power within his own crystal sphere could this Pandorym pose any threat? Personally I have never liked the idea of something that powerful and yet weak enough to be imprisoned by mortals. That to me is strange. And also the fact that somehow the Imaskar was more clever that the gods. And even more powerful. I don’t know what level spells they cast to create the godwall, but if they can imprison pandorym and the deities can’t do nothing about the pandorym then why did the imaskar need to get such a being in the first place when they were obviously more powerful than the gods?

The whole thing makes no sense to me.

Probably more a stone-scissors-paper situation than a strict linear power situation. Powers smite primes, Pandorym eats powers, primes imprison Pandorym.

So, he probably has a kind of specific anti-power power.

[FenAseph]

Well, yeah, but, my point, or rather that of my esteemed friend RPGaddict28 aka one of my 3.5 DMs (incidentally, the fact that he's reading EE has me somewhat scared), was that, despite all this, the gods have an artifact that no-questions-asked instagibs any psionic creature.

The mind shard is a psionic creature, but maybe the fully formed Pandorym isn´t. Therefore, the artifact might be useless against Pandorym. Even if fully Pandorym is psionic, you will not have the chance to use it against Pandorym, because ¨the wielder can trigger this effect as a special action requiring 10 rounds of continuous concentration to complete¨. I doubt that Pandorym will wait 10 rounds - you will be killed in no time, long before you can use the artifact.


How did they even get information about this creature?

Well, I have some speculations. A few posts before we talked about Sigil. Maybe Sigil is the answer to this question. The Imaskari learned about Pandorym through their contacts in Sigil. Maybe they found a portal that leads to the reality of Pandorym. Why not?


why did the imaskar need to get such a being in the first place when they were obviously more powerful than the gods?

They were not more powerful than the gods - after all they were wiped out by the said gods.


What I have never understood was how can a being be more powerful than all the gods combined and still be split and imprisoned by mortal artificers?

Well, the situation was more complex than we think. They had a unique position. They had a vast knowledge of magic and the resources of an entire empire at their disposal. They were a cabal composed of epic wizards.
I can imagine that they have created an one-time epic spell in order to split Pandorym. I guess that they pushed the Weave to its limits to create that spell. The book says ¨many gave their lives to do so¨ (splitting Pandorym).
So the ritual required a tremendous amount of energy, and some casters died during the process.
And maybe they were helped by a powerful entity. Not necessarily Ao or some gods, rather an external entity. Maybe they were helped by a god of from the Abyss. Who knows?


And since, to my knowledge, AO has complete power within his own crystal sphere could this Pandorym pose any threat?

Maybe Ao will allow Pandorym to kill all the gods. Why not? He does not intervene directly in the events of his own sphere. Or maybe Ao will be unable to stop Pandorym. I mean, the reformed Pandorym has the power level of an overgod.

[malonkey1]

What I have never understood was how can a being be more powerful than all the gods combined and still be split and imprisoned by mortal artificers? How did they even get information about this creature? And since, to my knowledge, AO has complete power within his own crystal sphere could this Pandorym pose any threat? Personally I have never liked the idea of something that powerful and yet weak enough to be imprisoned by mortals. That to me is strange. And also the fact that somehow the Imaskar was more clever that the gods. And even more powerful. I don’t know what level spells they cast to create the godwall, but if they can imprison pandorym and the deities can’t do nothing about the pandorym then why did the imaskar need to get such a being in the first place when they were obviously more powerful than the gods?

The whole thing makes no sense to me.

Mortals, especially the magi that would have split Pandorym, are the very definition of Weak But Skilled (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeakButSkilled). You don't need power to outwit an enemy.

[Alleran]

I can imagine that they have created an one-time epic spell in order to split Pandorym. I guess that they pushed the Weave to its limits to create that spell.
The Imaskari were operating in the time period before Netheril, and thus they had access to the Weave as maintained by Mystryl, rather than with the limitations imposed on it by Mystra. They also, IIRC, had the Shadow Weave. So even if they did push the Weave fairly heavily, they were also pushing it on a scale that "modern" spellcasters (i.e. the 1-to-9-and-epic) may not be capable of.


Maybe Ao will allow Pandorym to kill all the gods. Why not? He does not intervene directly in the events of his own sphere. Or maybe Ao will be unable to stop Pandorym. I mean, the reformed Pandorym has the power level of an overgod.
Depends. Ao was the one who summoned the Mulhorandi gods through the Godwall in the first place, allowing them entry and bending the rules of normal Power-into-Crystal-Sphere interaction. He also did intervene during the Time of Troubles, naturally, and once - only once, AFAIK - he directly answered a prayer in place of another god.

[Melcar]

My point was that it seems counterproductive to spends such a vast amount of power getting the pandoryn here in the first place. It would seem that if the spend the time/power getting the pandorym on battling the god they might actually have won.

Also a non-split pandorym might have the power of an over deity (where is this info from btw), which makes it even more unbelievable that the succeeded. And even though the Pandorym might be as strong as AO (which I personally find hard to believe) he still has full command over his own sphere, just like Asmodeus has over hell. Meaning that he could banish and keep out the pandorym if he so wished... AFAIK.

What I also find unbelievably is that the mystryl weave might have no max level spells, we just know that the highest level spell was 12, but we also know that the elves' high magic could surpass what was doable by level 12 and its fair to believe that the imaskari had their own form of ritual magic (godwall). But if they were able to split and imprison pandorym I find it unbelievable that the gods can’t stop the pandorym. It might be some form of rock, paper scissors, but still i find this unlikely.

[Urpriest]

Well, yeah, but, my point, or rather that of my esteemed friend RPGaddict28 aka one of my 3.5 DMs (incidentally, the fact that he's reading EE has me somewhat scared), was that, despite all this, the gods have an artifact that no-questions-asked instagibs any psionic creature.

Again, what do you mean by that? If you mean the Annulus, in what possible sense do the gods have the Annulus? It's a lost artifact of the mind flayer empire, why would the gods have anything to do with it?

[malonkey1]

Again, what do you mean by that? If you mean the Annulus, in what possible sense do the gods have the Annulus? It's a lost artifact of the mind flayer empire, why would the gods have anything to do with it?

I believe Mind Flayers have deities, don't they?

[AnonymousPepper]

Actually, what with his portfolio including both psionics and secrets, wouldn't Sardior - as an example - know of the Annulus and its location?

[Eldan]

It's quite possible no one knows where it is, if it was stuffed into, say, the deepest layers of Pandemonium.

[Erik Vale]

Actually, what with his portfolio including both psionics and secrets, wouldn't Sardior - as an example - know of the Annulus and its location?

Due to Psionics, maybe, several months before it get's used.

Secrets, only if the location is actually a secret. Otherwise you need a god/des of knowledge or loss.

[Yuki Akuma]

I believe Mind Flayers have deities, don't they?

Not as far as I know! They have Elder Brains, some of which could potentially have divine ranks, but I don't think they actually worship any gods per se.

[Eldan]

Not as far as I know! They have Elder Brains, some of which could potentially have divine ranks, but I don't think they actually worship any gods per se.

They have one, Ilsensine (http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Ilsensine).

[Yuki Akuma]

They have one, Ilsensine (http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Ilsensine).

Huh.

Why does she have the Magic domain.

[Eldan]

Huh.

Why does she have the Magic domain.

Probably for lack of a psionic domain. I'd say it's mostly due to WotC's policy that books can't cross reference each other, so they couldn't give him anything from the XPH or complete divine? Maybe? Most of the write-up is probably also from AD&D sources, when psionics were entirely different anyway.
I've found hA list (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html) which also gives it Dream, Domination, Mind and Tyranny, which are all certainly fitting.


I think I've read some theories that it is basically an Elder Brain that grew so large, it achieved divinity.

[FenAseph]

Also a non-split pandorym might have the power of an over deity (where is this info from btw), which makes it even more unbelievable that the succeeded. And even though the Pandorym might be as strong as AO (which I personally find hard to believe) he still has full command over his own sphere, just like Asmodeus has over hell. Meaning that he could banish and keep out the pandorym if he so wished... AFAIK.



And I've thought about it. Unsplitted Pandorym has a power level of an overdeity because it takes a tremendous power in order to destroy all the gods. Hence the comparison with Ao.


What I also find unbelievably is that the mystryl weave might have no max level spells, we just know that the highest level spell was 12, but we also know that the elves' high magic could surpass what was doable by level 12 and its fair to believe that the imaskari had their own form of ritual magic (godwall). But if they were able to split and imprison pandorym I find it unbelievable that the gods can’t stop the pandorym. It might be some form of rock, paper scissors, but still i find this unlikely.

Maybe you're right. Indeed, if Imaskari were able to split Pandorym, the gods should be able to do the same.
But here's the thing. Pandorym is an Elder Evil and is therefore immune to the power of the gods. Of course the gods can use magic instead of divine powers, but perhaps is no longer possible the splitting of Pandorym.
I think Imaskari managed this because they had several elements: a highly developed magic, the help of a power and the surprise factor. Pandorym did not expect it.
Imaskari had used magic from other planes, they were not limited by the Weave or Shadow Weave. I´ve read that Imaskarcana can work even without the Weave/Shadow Weave.
I would not be surprised if Imaskari had used magic (or its equivalent) of the reality of Pandorym. Somehow that makes sense, Pandorym was divided using his own weapons.

[Melcar]

And I've thought about it. Unsplitted Pandorym has a power level of an overdeity because it takes a tremendous power in order to destroy all the gods. Hence the comparison with Ao.



Maybe you're right. Indeed, if Imaskari were able to split Pandorym, the gods should be able to do the same.
But here's the thing. Pandorym is an Elder Evil and is therefore immune to the power of the gods. Of course the gods can use magic instead of divine powers, but perhaps is no longer possible the splitting of Pandorym.
I think Imaskari managed this because they had several elements: a highly developed magic, the help of a power and the surprise factor. Pandorym did not expect it.
Imaskari had used magic from other planes, they were not limited by the Weave or Shadow Weave. I´ve read that Imaskarcana can work even without the Weave/Shadow Weave.
I would not be surprised if Imaskari had used magic (or its equivalent) of the reality of Pandorym. Somehow that makes sense, Pandorym was divided using his own weapons.

Please correct my if I'm wrong, but I remember something about them being tought magic by the fay interlopers. A highly powerful magic. I think ist the same the elves used, but unsure of the details (which by the way seems to get retcon'ed every edition :smallconfused: ) But it was something about seelies or something from feywild... I think.

[Urpriest]

I believe Mind Flayers have deities, don't they?

Yes, and if the mind flayers have lost it, their deities certainly have.

[TeslaJr]

What I have never understood was how can a being be more powerful than all the gods combined and still be split and imprisoned by mortal artificers? How did they even get information about this creature? And since, to my knowledge, AO has complete power within his own crystal sphere could this Pandorym pose any threat? Personally I have never liked the idea of something that powerful and yet weak enough to be imprisoned by mortals. That to me is strange. And also the fact that somehow the Imaskar was more clever that the gods. And even more powerful. I don’t know what level spells they cast to create the godwall, but if they can imprison pandorym and the deities can’t do nothing about the pandorym then why did the imaskar need to get such a being in the first place when they were obviously more powerful than the gods?

The whole thing makes no sense to me.

Well, during the time of the Netheril Empire, a single caster was able to take on a Greater Deity. IIRC, his name was Karsus, and using a high level spell he stripped (or nearly, I can't remember) Mystryl of her powers (and turned himself into a god for a few minutes). So, considering that the Imaskar had access to an entire magical empire full of crazy powerful wizards, it does make sense that they could split Pandorym where the gods couldn't. Besides, as someone else pointed out, Elder Evils are immune to divine power.

[Erik Vale]

Yes, and if the mind flayers have lost it, their deities certainly have.

I'm not sure if that was a deliberate pun or not, but that had me laughing for a while.

[Grollub]

If sure from a gods point of view, if Pandorym destroys "the world" big frakkin deal.. there are an infinite number of realities. Scrub 1 off the list, and move on.

[Silva Stormrage]

If sure from a gods point of view, if Pandorym destroys "the world" big frakkin deal.. there are an infinite number of realities. Scrub 1 off the list, and move on.

Considering that Pandorym's goal is actually to specifically kill off the gods. I think they would mind. Like literally that is its only purpose is to kill off the gods. Its just speculation (Although probably accurate speculation) that it will then proceed to destroy the multiverse.

[Rubik]

Maybe Pandorym is what happened to our world. Humans used to believe in (and even practice) magic and mysticism, and according to certain *ahem* histories, gods and monsters of all kinds walked the Earth. But now? Nothing. No magic, no monsters, no gods.

Coincidence? I think not.

[iceman10058]

Maybe Pandorym is what happened to our world. Humans used to believe in (and even practice) magic and mysticism, and according to certain *ahem* histories, gods and monsters of all kinds walked the Earth. But now? Nothing. No magic, no monsters, no gods.

Coincidence? I think not.

nah, i firmly believe that us modern day humans don't believe in it enough. and without that belief, no super cool powers.

[FenAseph]

I see the OP insist on the Annulus thing. I repeat, the full Pandorym may be non-psionic. Even if the full Pandorym is psionic, we do not know what psionic powers it has. I mean, it could have far greater powers than level 9 powers. Maybe of an almost infinite level.
And its non-body can be destroyed by Annulus? It seems to me unlikely that a non-body can be reduced to dust. Its body is non-physical.
What strategy will adopt Pandorym against the gods, when it will be free?
I suspect that it will disrupt both the Weave and the Shadow Weave.

[FenAseph]

One thing I never understood is how Pandorym alone cannot escape from the crystalline prison. I mean, even its mind shard is already an epic creature. And the mind shard is only a thought of Pandorym's mind. Its full mind's power must be beyond imagination. And the full mind is contained in the crystal. Pandorym should be able to break the crystal from interior, without external help.
I think the only reason this does not happen is that the WotC did not want that.

[Gemini476]

One thing I never understood is how Pandorym alone cannot escape from the crystalline prison. I mean, even its mind shard is already an epic creature. And the mind shard is only a thought of Pandorym's mind. Its full mind's power must be beyond imagination. And the full mind is contained in the crystal. Pandorym should be able to break the crystal from interior, without external help.
I think the only reason this does not happen is that the WotC did not want that.

The Mind Shard is only released if the prison is already broken. Also,

• The crystalline prison has hardness 30, 300 hit points, and spell resistance 40. It is immune to acid, cold, electricity, and fire. Sonic attacks deal double damage, ignoring hardness as usual.
The Mind Shard only has ML 20, so SR stops it short.

Also also, while inside the prison you are pretty much "blotted from existence" and have no power over things outside it. That Pandorym can send out Mind Shards when it is damaged is testament to his power.



You necromancy is powerful, oh servant of the World Born Dead. I must caution you from continuing on this dark path.

[squiggit]

Considering that Pandorym's goal is actually to specifically kill off the gods. I think they would mind. Like literally that is its only purpose is to kill off the gods.
Well technically its goal is to fulfill its contract because of its code of honor (which is why mechanus is involved).


Its just speculation (Although probably accurate speculation) that it will then proceed to destroy the multiverse.
Only if for whatever reason it can't return home normally.


Elder Evils are immune to divine power.
This is the part about Elder Evils that always got me. Their whole design fits for things like Atropus and Pandorym.. but the way Zargon is just described as immune to gods... just because and the way fairly low-end threats (for elder evils) can still destroy the world with their signs always seemed odd to me.

[FenAseph]

Also also, while inside the prison you are pretty much "blotted from existence" and have no power over things outside it. That Pandorym can send out Mind Shards when it is damaged is testament to his power.





But then how was Pandorym able to enslave Lucather Majii, if it have no power over things outside of the prison? If Pandorym can do that, then it should be able to shatter the crystal from inside.

[Idran]

Probably for lack of a psionic domain. I'd say it's mostly due to WotC's policy that books can't cross reference each other, so they couldn't give him anything from the XPH or complete divine? Maybe? Most of the write-up is probably also from AD&D sources, when psionics were entirely different anyway.
I've found hA list (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html) which also gives it Dream, Domination, Mind and Tyranny, which are all certainly fitting.

Sorry to respond to an old post, but I only found the referral just now. That domain actually is straight out of XPH, which gave Ilsensine Evil, Law, Knowledge, Magic, and Mind (page 222). I try and incorporate as much published stuff as I can across all editions except where it makes absolutely no sense or I simply can't make different edition stuff fit together, so I left it when I swapped the domains to Pathfinder domains, but now that you bring it up, it really doesn't fit that much, no; I probably ought to change that one.

[Ramza00]

What I have never understood was how can a being be more powerful than all the gods combined and still be split and imprisoned by mortal artificers? How did they even get information about this creature? And since, to my knowledge, AO has complete power within his own crystal sphere could this Pandorym pose any threat? Personally I have never liked the idea of something that powerful and yet weak enough to be imprisoned by mortals. That to me is strange. And also the fact that somehow the Imaskar was more clever that the gods. And even more powerful. I don’t know what level spells they cast to create the godwall, but if they can imprison pandorym and the deities can’t do nothing about the pandorym then why did the imaskar need to get such a being in the first place when they were obviously more powerful than the gods?

The whole thing makes no sense to me.
This post happen a few months ago but let me try to answer it.

Just because something is extremely powerful, something that has
attack= god level attack plus 2
damage = godlevel HP plus 2
ac= god level ac plus 2
hit points = god level HP * 10
regen = god level, even epic weapons and damage caused by divine sources is non lethal
fast healing god level HP
etc

Even if he has all this does not mean he is all knowing with nfinite senses. Find a way to get pass his senses and then puny mortals can do their epic spellcasting and imprision him, since epic spellcasting has no real limits instead fundamentally changing the rules of the universe. The gods do not have that luxury since pandorym can see them.

Perhaps pandorym could not see humans for our energy was so insignificant but the gods so vast. Humans imprison pandorym and brought part of his beyond the mortal realm being into the mortal realm. Eventually pandorym evolved and now can see the mortals in the mortal realm as well, part of him is infinite and unimaginable since he is not of here, but part of him is now in the mortal plane touching it and thus being affected by it. His avatars are epic level threats like his mind shard and his sphere of annihilation body and these threats will affect humans and if the great evil is unlock pandorym will destroy all.

[Ramza00]

Put another way Pandorym is effectively sauron from the lord of the rings in the third age. He has all the power, nothing on middle earth can stop him (the vallar and eru illuvatar do not count since they are not of middle earth and are unable or unwilling to touch middle earth during the third age.). The only way to beat him is to destroy the ring. The only reason the ring is destroyed is that sauron who power is so vast and overwhelming did not have the foresight that they may attack this way.

[Tvtyrant]

Or possibly Pandorym enjoys the tension? What if we assume that something unbelievable powerful had a destiny to wipe out existence, but the thing itself gets bored easily? Pandorym allows itself to be bested just before its resurrection because is savors the inevitability of its victory more that way. It allowed itself to be defeated in the first place after killing many gods, and will be back when the thrill of waiting wears off.

[Rubik]

It allowed itself to be defeated in the first place after killing many gods, and will be back when the thrill of waiting wears off.There is something seriously wrong with that phrase.

[Tvtyrant]

There is something seriously wrong with that phrase.

If I changed the word from "waiting" to "anticipation" would you say the same? How much better is Christmas or a kids birthday because we hype it up? Why is a boxed present better then just handing someone something?

Waiting makes the sugar sweeter!

[Coidzor]

Pandorym has a deicide denial fetish which makes when it does get released to kill deities all the sweeter?

Kinky.

[atemu1234]

Pandorym has a deicide denial fetish which makes when it does get released to kill deities all the sweeter?

Kinky.

Isn't it separated from its body, and while separate, cannot break out of its prison, even though, if combined, they could?

[TeslaJr]

Isn't it separated from its body, and while separate, cannot break out of its prison, even though, if combined, they could?

If ever combined Pandorym would shred whatever pantheon of gods you are using and then, if prevented from leaving by some stupid mortal, it would rip apart the Material plane like a 300lb linebacker through a sheet of wet toilet paper.

[atemu1234]

If ever combined Pandorym would shred whatever pantheon of gods you are using and then, if prevented from leaving by some stupid mortal, it would rip apart the Material plane like a 300lb linebacker through a sheet of wet toilet paper.

Note to self: don't cross the streams.

[Ramza00]

Pretty much whenever you see an elder evil it is a threat to the entire planet, even the gods will not be able to save the planet if it goes too far, and it may even be a threat to the gods itself.

Pretty much like the Snarl in the order of the stick.

[malonkey1]

If ever combined Pandorym would shred whatever pantheon of gods you are using and then, if prevented from leaving by some stupid mortal, it would rip apart the Material plane like a 300lb linebacker through a sheet of wet toilet paper.

Sir, that is an insult both to the strength of linebackers and the structural integrity of wet toilet paper.

[ArqArturo]

Hmmm, the Pandorym vs. The Lady of Pain.

Bonus: They're both in Sigil
Bonus: The Lady has the Annulus

[malonkey1]

Hmmm, the Pandorym vs. The Lady of Pain.

Bonus: They're both in Sigil
Bonus: The Lady has the Annulus

And, on the other side:

Bonus: Pandorym's been everywhere else.
Bonus: He's eaten any and all deities in all those places, including gods of magic, and is basically a superdeity beyond even Ao's boss.

[FenAseph]

An interesting thing: in 4e, Asmodeus is a Greater Deity. That means he will be a target for Pandorym?
I like the idea that Pandorym's mind continues to evolve inside the crystal. It makes sense. Which means that if Pandorym escapes, it will be even more powerful than when it was imprisoned.

[Psyren]

Probably for lack of a psionic domain. I'd say it's mostly due to WotC's policy that books can't cross reference each other, so they couldn't give him anything from the XPH or complete divine? Maybe? Most of the write-up is probably also from AD&D sources, when psionics were entirely different anyway.
I've found hA list (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html) which also gives it Dream, Domination, Mind and Tyranny, which are all certainly fitting.


I think I've read some theories that it is basically an Elder Brain that grew so large, it achieved divinity.

Ilsensine is in the XPH, page 222, LE Greater Deity.

Domains: Evil, Law, Knowledge, Magic, Mind. Dream, Domination and Tyranny were added to it later, though I'm having trouble locating where.

Ilsensine also *shudder* grants Mantles.

EDIT:


They have one, Ilsensine (http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Ilsensine).

That article seems to have left out Ilsensine's biggest foe, Zuoken.

[Idran]

That article seems to have left out Ilsensine's biggest foe, Zuoken.

That's just because Timaresh is from a multiversal perspective, and when you're considering more than just Oerth, it doesn't make sense to consider him as such. I don't want to go too far off-topic so I'll keep this short, but basically Zuoken's only been a divinity for around a thousand years at best (he was still mortal during the Baklunish-Suloise Wars of Oerth, which were around then), and for the last hundred years or so he was locked up in Zagyg's Godtrap. Meanwhile Ilsensine and the illithid were the dominant empire of the Prime Material for tens of thousands of years before Zuoken even existed. Ilsensine's biggest foe on Oerth might be Zuoken, but multiverse-wide it's more likely either Gith or Zerthimon, if either still exists. (It's at least worth a mention in the sidebar, though, yes, and I've rectified that.)