Pathfinder alignment "situation"

[skypse]

Hi everyone. I'm facing a bit of a problem here so I'm wondering what I can do about it. Here we go:

I'm playing a custom campaign right now that our DM created and I'm playing a half-orc, Barbie 4, Oracle 1 going for RP @ lvl 7. I have the dual cursed oracle feature and I have taken Lame as primary and Deaf as secondary.

The DM said he would give us our background stories and we could add anything we wanted at the begining just to spice things up a bit if he agrees too. So my story goes like this: My parents are unknown, I was raised in the woods by a tribe of druids and have nevered lived in a town or city. The druids taught me the "rule of the jungle", how to fight and how to use my magical powers. Blah blah blah irrelevant stuff, I get to meet a (probably demigot) warrior that saves my ass from a huge troll, and takes me to a place where him and some other ppl gather various kind of adventurers to unite them under a common cause.

This "town" (more like a mansion) is inside a magical barrier that no magic or evil characters are allowed. (and I have not seen any animals around) During the intoduction, the leaders of the organization gathered all of us and told us what we have to do, and sent us to our beds.

So we are off our first mission, we succeed it, we return, we sleep. All good till now. When I wake up, I ask if there are any stores around that I can buy pots 'n other stuff. I go, I buy, and after I get out of the store I see a cat. The cat talks to me but I can't hear it (I'm deaf) and I don't see its mouth moving. I use handle animal, it succeeds, and while I'm stroking her she puts her claws in my hand and deals 1 non-lethal dmg +bleed. She starts running, and when she's away she gives me the finger.(!!!) Now the important part begins. (Note here that my character is chaotic neutral)

1) An animal that doesn't intimidate me just attacked me and it made me bleed.
2) The animal is doing a human's gesture which makes me think it's magical.
3) No casting is allowed inside the mansion so the cat could be an infiltrator.
4) I cannot chase the cat (lame+medium armor=20 speed even for a barbie)
5) I get angry towards the cat so I attack it. I take out my spear, I throw it, deals 7 dmg and the DM tells me that by my character's knowledge, I understand that it's not a common cat otherwise it would have died.

So I call another attack with another spear. The DM then asks me, "Do you have the intention to kill it?", I say yes, and suddenly I vanish, take 64dmg and tells me I'm lying dead somewhere outside the mansion.

DM tells me that the intention to kill another person is an evil act so the barrier killed me and teleported me out of the safe zone of the mansion. However, due to the fact that I didn't know it (I'm newbie and I know I should know it but I can't find a list of what clearly describes the allignments (core rulebook is a bit vague)), he offered me the choise of loosing 2k xp (all the xp I have gathered from the mission) and reset the whole incident rolling back to the time where I just came out of the shop.

I told him that this is completely unfair and explained to him that the reason I attacked the "cat" was that I believe that it was an infiltrator because I have seen no other domestic animals around and I know casting is forbidden (the only person I have seen casting something is the head leader of the whole expedition.) However he is relentless and tells me that I shouldn't have acted without asking about the cat even if I acted due to the fact that I felt threatened by an animal that attacked me. He told me that the intention to kill is an evil act, and my counter argument is that being unpredictable is the key attribute of chaotic neutral alignments.

Can anyone with DM experience help me on that matter? Feel free to ask any other information you might need because I feel really bad for losing 2k xp since I have really not done anything opposite to my character's alignment and background story.


TL;DR Please read it :P It's not something that I can put in simple words

[Kudaku]

Did he shift your alignment to chaotic evil for killing the cat? Setting aside whether or not the killing was evil, the wall as you describe only keeps out evil creatures - not neutral creatures who have committed an evil act. Unless the act was sufficiently evil to shift you down to an evil alignment (which in my opinion it was not), the wall should not have killed you.

[Pink]

I don't think your unreasonable in your disagreement. Especially if you are new, the GM should be explaining things to you BEFORE doing any kinda big punishment that could, say, kill your character.

While I would tend to agree that, in this situation, the act of sudden violence and attempt to kill is more on the evil side of things (though you certainly had noble intentions with it), one evil act does not make a character evil. A lawful character does not suddenly become neutral or chaotic because he shoplifts once. A GM should be much slower and respectful of a player characters alignment and not be so quick to change it. Characters are complicated, and alignment should be a general indicator of activity, not a straight jacket. You GM can note that this is an activity point that is outside the bound of the general indicator, but chances are you also have had activities of being 'good' or 'lawful' and if the GM didn't immediately adjust your alignment then, they likewise shouldn't immediately change it to evil just to show off the amazing behind-the-scene evil whammy ward in their homebrew game.

Anyway, chances are, this thread should fill up with some good sympathetic posts, and you have been rather respectful in your own posting, so best case is probably to show this thread after it's accumulated some discussion. Maybe.

[Psyren]

I'm sorry but your DM is right, what you did is evil. Resorting to lethal force immediately after getting a scratch is not good or even neutral behavior. It's compounded by the fact that (a) you knew the cat was sapient and (b) you had reason to believe it wasn't evil (i.e. because it was inside the evil-blocking barrier.)

Even if you suspected it was an infiltrator that had somehow penetrated the barrier, you have no concrete evidence of that and thus your use of force was excessive. Hell, even if you had detected its alignment as evil (which you didn't), lethal force is still an immoral response unless the cat is about to inflict imminent harm on yourself or someone else.

The fact that you even knew about the barrier makes your actions not just immoral, but not very well thought out either. If I was inside a barrier like that I wouldn't even swat a fly until I left.

[Segev]

I will say that I think the DM probably should have given you an Int or Wis check to see if you recalled the barrier IC, so he could remind you OOC, and/or asked you the ever-popular "are you SURE you want to do that, given...?" and filled in whatever he thinks you the player may have forgotten that the character would not have.

[skypse]

I'm sorry but your DM is right, what you did is evil. Resorting to lethal force immediately after getting a scratch is not good or even neutral behavior. It's compounded by the fact that (a) you knew the cat was sapient and (b) you had reason to believe it wasn't evil (i.e. because it was inside the evil-blocking barrier.)

Yeah and I also had reasons to believe that it wasn't magical because it is inside the barrier but didn't stop it from performing a human's gesture so I acted impulsively.


Hell, even if you had detected its alignment as evil (which you didn't), lethal force is still an immoral response unless the cat is about to inflict imminent harm on yourself or someone else.
How can I detect a thing if I can't cast anything??? :) Plus it is not immoral since I there is no proof that the cat doesn't have intention to inflict imminent harm on me. It had just pierced my hand while I was stroking it :) By that logic I should wait until a random encounter is ready to deliver a coup de grace on one of my party members before I attack it...

[skypse]

I will say that I think the DM probably should have given you an Int or Wis check to see if you recalled the barrier IC, so he could remind you OOC, and/or asked you the ever-popular "are you SURE you want to do that, given...?" and filled in whatever he thinks you the player may have forgotten that the character would not have.

As a player, I knew the cat was magical, I knew it was not a normal cat and I knew it had the ability to talk. But that's just metagame. My character knew nothing of these stuff. As far as I believe I shouldn't chose my actions based on the RP of the rest of my party when I am not there, but based on the RP when I am present and I have my senses.

[Psyren]

The "are you trying to kill it?" seems like it was the "are you sure" to me - though I do agree that it may have been a bit subtle for a newer player.

To account for that I would just do over the whole scene without penalties, and make the barrier's previous zapping of the Oracle be a "vision" sent by their deity or something else (even the barrier itself) as warning. "As the vision fades, you sense a warning hum that could only be coming from the barrier; you have little doubt that evil actions within its confines will be severely punished."

[Keneth]

The intent to kill is not in itself an evil act. On the other hand, being chaotic neutral is not a permission to randomly murder stuff. People too often use the "I'm CN, I can do whatever I want!" excuse which is simply not true.

[NotScaryBats]

Whether or not the action was Evil, unless you became Evil from doing it, you shouldn't have been effected by the barrier. Good people sometimes do Evil things in D&D, but unless you do lots or particularly heinous things, you don't change alignment.

I think the DM should take a step back and think about why s/he punished you so badly for this action.

[skypse]

Did he shift your alignment to chaotic evil for killing the cat? Setting aside whether or not the killing was evil, the wall as you describe only keeps out evil creatures - not neutral creatures who have committed an evil act. Unless the act was sufficiently evil to shift you down to an evil alignment (which in my opinion it was not), the wall should not have killed you.


I don't think your unreasonable in your disagreement. Especially if you are new, the GM should be explaining things to you BEFORE doing any kinda big punishment that could, say, kill your character.

While I would tend to agree that, in this situation, the act of sudden violence and attempt to kill is more on the evil side of things (though you certainly had noble intentions with it), one evil act does not make a character evil. A lawful character does not suddenly become neutral or chaotic because he shoplifts once. A GM should be much slower and respectful of a player characters alignment and not be so quick to change it. Characters are complicated, and alignment should be a general indicator of activity, not a straight jacket. You GM can note that this is an activity point that is outside the bound of the general indicator, but chances are you also have had activities of being 'good' or 'lawful' and if the GM didn't immediately adjust your alignment then, they likewise shouldn't immediately change it to evil just to show off the amazing behind-the-scene evil whammy ward in their homebrew game.

Anyway, chances are, this thread should fill up with some good sympathetic posts, and you have been rather respectful in your own posting, so best case is probably to show this thread after it's accumulated some discussion. Maybe.

The barrier is supposed to protect the mansion from any kind of casting and any evil act. Not only evil characters. That's why he killed me he says.

[Psyren]

Yeah and I also had reasons to believe that it wasn't magical because it is inside the barrier but didn't stop it from performing a human's gesture so I acted impulsively.

There are different types of magic in this game. For instance, a barrier that prevented spellcasting wouldn't necessarily stop someone from shapeshifting by other means, and even a barrier that prevented all magic would not cause a previously awakened/intelligent animal to lose their sentience either.



How can I detect a thing if I can't cast anything??? :)

It's called logic :smalltongue: You start with your premises and arrive at a conclusion. Like this:

1) Barrier keeps out evil.
2) X is inside the barrier.

Logical conclusion from premises: X is not evil.

Assuming the barrier is faulty or has a loophole of some kind is illogical unless you have reason to believe this is the case. Being scratched by a cat, and even being flipped off, are not evil acts either.


Plus it is not immoral since I there is no proof that the cat doesn't have intention to inflict imminent harm on me. It had just pierced my hand while I was stroking it :)

1 point of nonlethal does not justify lethal force.


By that logic I should wait until a random encounter is ready to deliver a coup de grace on one of my party members before I attack it...

A coup de grace with what? Was it packing a scythe? A shotgun maybe? :smalltongue:

Or to put it another way - do you routinely try to kill cats that scratch you in real life?

[skypse]

The "are you trying to kill it?" seems like it was the "are you sure" to me - though I do agree that it may have been a bit subtle for a newer player.

To account for that I would just do over the whole scene without penalties, and make the barrier's previous zapping of the Oracle be a "vision" sent by their deity or something else (even the barrier itself) as warning. "As the vision fades, you sense a warning hum that could only be coming from the barrier; you have little doubt that evil actions within its confines will be severely punished."

He didn't ask me if I had evil intentions in me. I killed it only on the premise of self defence and fear of the unknown.


Whether or not the action was Evil, unless you became Evil from doing it, you shouldn't have been effected by the barrier. Good people sometimes do Evil things in D&D, but unless you do lots or particularly heinous things, you don't change alignment.

I think the DM should take a step back and think about why s/he punished you so badly for this action.

The barrier protects from evil. This includes evil acts. Not only people.


The intent to kill is not in itself an evil act. On the other hand, being chaotic neutral is not a permission to randomly murder stuff. People too often use the "I'm CN, I can do whatever I want!" excuse which is simply not true.

I don't say that. I just say that I acted preemtively and this IS the attribute of a CN. It was not a cold-blooded murder. It was kind of "self-defence" if you could put it like that..

[skypse]

There are different types of magic in this game. For instance, a barrier that prevented spellcasting wouldn't necessarily stop someone from shapeshifting by other means, and even a barrier that prevented all magic would not cause a previously awakened/intelligent animal to lose their sentience either.
I get prevented from even casting create water in there. Even detect magic. And an intelligence score is not an excuse for a cat to do human gestures...



It's called logic :smalltongue: You start with your premises and arrive at a conclusion. Like this:

1) Barrier keeps out evil.
2) X is inside the barrier.

Logical conclusion from premises: X is not evil.

Assuming the barrier is faulty or has a loophole of some kind is illogical unless you have reason to believe this is the case. Being scratched by a cat, and even being flipped off, are not evil acts either.

1) Barrier forbides any kind of magic.
2) X is inside the barrier and is using magic.

Logical conclusion from premises: Something's wrong here Watson...




1 point of nonlethal does not justify lethal force.

I'm really confused with this. Ok he tells me it's non-lethal so I have to believe him. But how does this transfer to my character. How can a half-orc understand that his bleeding wound is no threat. And how can my character know that this will have no continuation. Should I just wait and act when the DM says the cat dealt lethal dmg? Or should I start punching it while raging as long as I say "non-lethal" at the begining?




A coup de grace with what? Was it packing a scythe? A shotgun maybe? :smalltongue:

C'mon it's a random encounter... It could even have nuclear missiles.




Or to put it another way - do you routinely try to kill cats that scratch you in real life?

I can't say that if killing cats was a legal sport I wouldn't try it out. I find it more challenging than foxes for once... :P

[Kudaku]

The barrier is supposed to protect the mansion from any kind of casting and any evil act. Not only evil characters. That's why he killed me he says.

This is information you should add to the original post - the OP only stipulated that it kept out evil characters.

[Keneth]

1) Barrier keeps out evil.
2) X is inside the barrier.

Unless it's an all-powerful barrier by DM fiat, one's alignment is incredibly easy to spoof.

[Psyren]

I get prevented from even casting create water in there. Even detect magic. And an intelligence score is not an excuse for a cat to do human gestures...



1) Barrier forbides any kind of magic.
2) X is inside the barrier and is using magic.

Logical conclusion from premises: Something's wrong here Watson...

As I explained above, "you can't cast spells" is not quite the same as "you can't use magic."

But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you didn't know that. The proper course of action would still be to go back to your allies as quickly as you can and let them know there is a strange creature inside the barrier. Raise the alarm - don't immediately resort to stabbing.

The kind of behavior you displayed is why so many DMs hate Chaotic Neutral characters.


I'm really confused with this. Ok he tells me it's non-lethal so I have to believe him. But how does this transfer to my character. How can a half-orc understand that his bleeding wound is no threat.

If a cat scratched you in real life, how would you know it's not life-threatening? Simple, because it's a scratch. Your character would react the same way.



I can't say that if killing cats was a legal sport I wouldn't try it out. I find it more challenging than foxes for once... :P

...Well, unless you have some deep-seated hatred against cats personally, in which case my advice is to try and keep it out of the game as much as you can.


Unless it's an all-powerful barrier by DM fiat, one's alignment is incredibly easy to spoof.

And that would be relevant if the cat had done anything evil. Otherwise it's a leap of logic to assume the thing isn't working, especially if you have empirical evidence that it does function (i.e. can't cast spells.)

[Oliver Veyrac]

Guess we will go through my vile checklist :

LYING - Nope
Cheating - Nope
Theft - Nope
Betrayal - Nope
Murder - Murder is the killing of an intelligent creature for a
nefarious purpose: theft, personal gain, perverse pleasure, or
the like.
VENGEANCE - Yes, you fall under the guidelines for that. But you don't fall under the evil guideline. An act of vengeance does not
have to be evil, but the evil mindset usually redefines the
concept as “revenge at any price.” such as teleporting into the tavern and throwing lightning bolts into the crowd to get the cat.
WORSHIPING EVIL GODS AND DEMONS - Nope
ANIMATING THE DEAD OR CREATING UNDEAD - Who here hasn't played a lawful neutral necromancer, oh wait, look at wee jas. LN Necromancer goddess.
CASTING EVIL SPELLS - We are not Jozan the holy priest of pelor that casts symbol of pain and walks over his allies.
DAMNING OR HARMING SOULS - Nope
CONSORTING WITH FIENDS - That cat might count.
CREATING EVIL CREATURES- uh nope.
USING OTHERS FOR PERSONAL GAIN - did you sacrifice the cat?
Greed - Did you try to steal the cat's cat food?
BULLYING AND COWING INNOCENTS - umm no
BRINGING DESPAIR - debateable.
TEMPTING OTHERS - yeah right.

There's my evil exam. If you are chaotic neutral you wouldn't even put a dent into it. In fact, the most accurate alignment changing system was back in ravenloft, and even that wouldn't phase your alignment too much.

[Keneth]

And that would be relevant if the cat had done anything evil.

I'm not trying to excuse his actions, I'm just saying that in a world where barriers such as that one can be erected, hiding your alignment should be near trivial.

[skypse]

Guess we will go through my vile checklist :

LYING - Nope
Cheating - Nope
Theft - Nope
Betrayal - Nope
Murder - Murder is the killing of an intelligent creature for a
nefarious purpose: theft, personal gain, perverse pleasure, or
the like.
VENGEANCE - Yes, you fall under the guidelines for that. But you don't fall under the evil guideline. An act of vengeance does not
have to be evil, but the evil mindset usually redefines the
concept as “revenge at any price.” such as teleporting into the tavern and throwing lightning bolts into the crowd to get the cat.
WORSHIPING EVIL GODS AND DEMONS - Nope
ANIMATING THE DEAD OR CREATING UNDEAD - Who here hasn't played a lawful neutral necromancer, oh wait, look at wee jas. LN Necromancer goddess.
CASTING EVIL SPELLS - We are not Jozan the holy priest of pelor that casts symbol of pain and walks over his allies.
DAMNING OR HARMING SOULS - Nope
CONSORTING WITH FIENDS - That cat might count.
CREATING EVIL CREATURES- uh nope.
USING OTHERS FOR PERSONAL GAIN - did you sacrifice the cat?
Greed - Did you try to steal the cat's cat food?
BULLYING AND COWING INNOCENTS - umm no
BRINGING DESPAIR - debateable.
TEMPTING OTHERS - yeah right.

There's my evil exam. If you are chaotic neutral you wouldn't even put a dent into it. In fact, the most accurate alignment changing system was back in ravenloft, and even that wouldn't phase your alignment too much.

Well I did a murder in terms of self preservation and vengeance but if the cat had left my sight I wouldn't have bothered to start chasing it around. However if it had gone inside the store, I would most certainly get in in order to find what the heck is going on and demand compensation.

So what is the outcome cause I didn't get it?? :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

[Insert Video Clip]Rambo: They drew first blood, not me...They drew first blood.[/Insert Video Clip]

The cat is definitely a Richard, and considering that D&D is known as a game filled with Murder-Hobo's, I'd say you were well within your rights to attack the cat.


As for planning on going Rage Prophet, THAT is inexcusable behavior, and needs to be punished.

[skypse]

As I explained above, "you can't cast spells" is not quite the same as "you can't use magic."


But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you didn't know that. The proper course of action would still be to go back to your allies as quickly as you can and let them know there is a strange creature inside the barrier. Raise the alarm - don't immediately resort to stabbing.

The kind of behavior you displayed is why so many DMs hate Chaotic Neutral characters.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! which means that an evil creature could have casted the spell on itself, and afterwards get inside the mansion! Which means we have an infiltrator, which means I have to do something about it! Act upon it and not start making illogical sounds to gather attention (deaf persons don't know what words sound like so they can't really speak)


If a cat scratched you in real life, how would you know it's not life-threatening? Simple, because it's a scratch. Your character would react the same way.
It's called tetanus in real life... Plus if a cat scratched me in real life I would most probably harm it. (still not kill it but anyway)

[skypse]

As for planning on going Rage Prophet, THAT is inexcusable behavior, and needs to be punished.

Please elaborate.

[squiggit]

You were assaulted by a strange, magical and hostile creature and fought back. Maybe excessive force, but overreaching isn't necessarily evil in and of itself.

Sort of funny he's taking such a hard line stance on what is or isn't evil then turns around and melts your character. Attacking a perceived threat is evil but frying your brain and dumping your corpse in a field without any investigation is good and wonderful?

[Oliver Veyrac]

The finality is, you didn't do something to justify an alignment change, let alone an evil act. Now if you sacrifice the cat to fix your cut that's another story. Or to cure "Cat scratch fever"

[skypse]

You were assaulted by a strange, magical and hostile creature and fought back. Maybe excessive force, but overreaching isn't necessarily evil in and of itself.

Sort of funny he's taking such a hard line stance on what is or isn't evil then turns around and melts your character. Attacking a perceived threat is evil but frying your brain and dumping your corpse in a field without any investigation is good and wonderful?

Well... The barrier is supposed to be extreme measures so I don't think it is an intelligent being. More like a security system. From what I understand, it judges good and evil on the surface and acts upon it the way it is created to act. An alarm system will go off even if it's the owner who just entered the house.

[skypse]

The finality is, you didn't do something to justify an alignment change, let alone an evil act. Now if you sacrifice the cat to fix your cut that's another story. Or to cure "Cat scratch fever"

So you say killing someone under the circumstances that I did it was not an evil act right? cool :P I didn't even managed to kill that bitch... Only by "having the intention to kill it" I died. :D

[ElenionAncalima]

I would guess that the DM is trying to curtail the murder hobo attitude early on. He does have a point that killing something you know is sentient, without even talking to it, just because you think it might be a spy...I don't know if I would call it evil...but its not a good idea.

However, I do agree that the DM's punishment is way over-the-top. That kind of punishment would be harsh for veteran player...agaisnt a new players it seems far too extreme. Personally, I would have explained that there will be in game consequences for killing instead of capturing someone, especially for this degree of uncertainty...and I would have explained that before you decided to kill the cat. If you still decided to do it I would have let you face consequences accordingly...although I still wouldn't have killed you.

Also, I agree with other posters that the act itself probably wasn't evil enough to justify the punishment. Its seems like you made the decision thoughtlessly, but not maliciously.

[Psyren]

@Oliver: I notice attempted murder is not on your list. Worse, the OP did admit to intent.


I'm not trying to excuse his actions, I'm just saying that in a world where barriers such as that one can be erected, hiding your alignment should be near trivial.

If they're widespread/have been around for awhile, sure. But we don't know enough about the setting to know that is the case.



Exactly! which means that an evil creature could have casted the spell on itself, and afterwards get inside the mansion! Which means we have an infiltrator, which means I have to do something about it! Act upon it and not start making illogical sounds to gather attention (deaf persons don't know what words sound like so they can't really speak)

You're still starting from the assumption that the thing is evil and then working backwards from there to try and justify your use of force. If I was your DM I wouldn't buy it for a minute.

Also, you're deaf, not mute... you can presumably still make sounds, even if you don't know what words are.



It's called tetanus in real life... Plus if a cat scratched me in real life I would most probably harm it. (still not kill it but anyway)

But why wouldn't you kill it? Evidently that is reasonable behavior for you :smalltongue: Basically, if something would stop you there, why is it a reasonable course here?

And even if a cat gave you tetanus from a scratch (which isn't very common anyway), killing it would not do anything to prevent that. It's just being vindictive.


To be clear, I'm not saying the DM's response (barrier fries you and you lose an entire session's worth of XP or have to reroll) was warranted. But I don't think there should be zero consequences either.

[Yanisa]

You were assaulted by a strange, magical and hostile creature and fought back. Maybe excessive force, but overreaching isn't necessarily evil in and of itself.

Sort of funny he's taking such a hard line stance on what is or isn't evil then turns around and melts your character. Attacking a perceived threat is evil but frying your brain and dumping your corpse in a field without any investigation is good and wonderful?

I suspect the barbarian killed a plot relevant character by overreacting.:smalltongue:

I too dealt with a Chaotic Neutral Barbarian Newbie and his character's interpretation has a vile streak. He liked to overreact, had a lust for vengeance and general was looking for a fight. It's hard to deal with sometimes as a DM. I often asked him out of game to tone it down, and we as a group explained the difference between neutral and evil. It also helped we had a paladin in the group that balanced out the barbarian. The barbarian had respect for the paladin because of the paladins power, and the paladin was a hard boiled egg type and not stick in the ass type so while he wouldn't agree with the barbarian he wouldn't try to arrest him either. He would stop the barbarian when things went to far, and in the end the player has become a better role player with a better understanding of chaotic neutral. Or at least our groups interpretation of chaotic neutral.

As to the OP. At the one side you kind off overreacted and you probably screwed some of the DM's plans. At the other side your DM is really closed off and really mean spirited about it. My advise to talk with the DM to try to learn how he's sees alignment, because that is really depend on the person. But also try to make clear that you are new and that harsh punishment isn't fun and you feel kinda cheated for it. The do over option sounds decent, especially because that saves the DM's plot, but try to gauge with the DM what he expects of you both as a player and as a chaotic neutral barbarian.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am suprized that whoever set up the barrier didn't get killed by it as soon as it came up. Something that instakills anything inside that preforms an action without any thought to moderation or judgement seems like an evil act. Really, he made a super death field, and it kills people with super death and no sense of judgement. How is that not an evil act.

[skypse]

You're still starting from the assumption that the thing is evil and then working backwards from there to try and justify your use of force. If I was your DM I wouldn't buy it for a minute.

I'm starting from the fact that an unknown being that seems to be using magic in a restricted area has the potential of being evil. After it has "declared" a hostile behavior towards me, I tend to take that potential under more serious consideration...



Also, you're deaf, not mute... you can presumably still make sounds, even if you don't know what words are.

Still I can't form clear words unless I concentrate (DM's opinion) so those sounds would more or less seem like unreasonable screaming...



But why wouldn't you kill it? Evidently that is reasonable behavior for you :smalltongue: Basically, if something would stop you there, why is it a reasonable course here?
Lol... Cause it's illegal and I could go to prison....



And even if a cat gave you tetanus from a scratch (which isn't very common anyway), killing it would not do anything to prevent that. It's just being vindictive.

I did admit on a previous post that I did it out of revenge and fear



To be clear, I'm not saying the DM's response (barrier fries you and you lose an entire session's worth of XP or have to reroll) was warranted. But I don't think there should be zero consequences either.

Ok let there be consequences no problem with that. Judge me ingame or something like that. Don't **** up the whole progress... It's hard enough already that the only XP source we have is the fights...

[skypse]

I suspect the barbarian killed a plot relevant character by overreacting.:smalltongue:

I too dealt with a Chaotic Neutral Barbarian Newbie and his character's interpretation has a vile streak. He liked to overreact, had a lust for vengeance and general was looking for a fight. It's hard to deal with sometimes as a DM. I often asked him out of game to tone it down, and we as a group explained the difference between neutral and evil. It also helped we had a paladin in the group that balanced out the barbarian. The barbarian had respect for the paladin because of the paladins power, and the paladin was a hard boiled egg type and not stick in the ass type so while he wouldn't agree with the barbarian he wouldn't try to arrest him either. He would stop the barbarian when things went to far, and in the end the player has become a better role player with a better understanding of chaotic neutral. Or at least our groups interpretation of chaotic neutral.

As to the OP. At the one side you kind off overreacted and you probably screwed some of the DM's plans. At the other side your DM is really closed off and really mean spirited about it. My advise to talk with the DM to try to learn how he's sees alignment, because that is really depend on the person. But also try to make clear that you are new and that harsh punishment isn't fun and you feel kinda cheated for it. The do over option sounds decent, especially because that saves the DM's plot, but try to gauge with the DM what he expects of you both as a player and as a chaotic neutral barbarian.

Generally I don't tend to look for a fight all day long and being offensive and stuff. I tend to do "whatever" I feel the urge to, but almost always with respect to others. Two good examples are the following so you can understand better.

On my first day in the mansion every adventurer was summoned on the main dining room and the expedition leaders gave a speach. Before the speach, I saw my savior sitting on the main table where the rest of the leaders were, and I wanted to go there because my character kinda worships him. (I think he is the embodiment of Gorum) So I start going there, some guards come to stop me but we can't communicate cause I can't hear what they say and all I do is pointing to that guy. Eventually, they try to grapple and handcuff me and when I realise that, I say to the DM that I just stand there idle and let them do whatever they are trying to without resistance.

During our first mission we encountered a Dwarven's king grave. While our dwarf was telling the rest of the group about the grave, I went and opened it cause my character felt bored cause I couldn't know what they are talking about (Impatience is another CN feature). I took a mace from inside, and the dwarf got mad at me. He tried to trip me so I would let the mace in the tomb again, but he failed a couple of times and stopped. However, not once I tried to attack him or avenge him for trying to stop me cause I didn't feel threatened. My character just understands that I did something that bothered him, and I should keep an eye on him in case he tries to take it back..

In general I am not the type of the Barbarian that runs around doing his own ****. I'm trying to be helpful and friendly as long as someone doesn't threaten or scares me...

[skypse]

I am suprized that whoever set up the barrier didn't get killed by it as soon as it came up. Something that instakills anything inside that preforms an action without any thought to moderation or judgement seems like an evil act. Really, he made a super death field, and it kills people with super death and no sense of judgement. How is that not an evil act.

Well I don't know about that to be honest :smalltongue:. However some of the highest ranks in the barrier are able to cast magic (for example the High priest can cast magic in order to heal or ressurect someone) so I guess there is a judgment system that just don't apply on the "newbies" of the organization...

[Psyren]

Bottom line as I see it is that both you and the DM overreacted. Perhaps the best situation would be to redo the scene.

[Yanisa]

It seems your DM has some troubles dealing with you, do you have that feeling too? Not only the CN and Barb are hard factors to deal with, being lame, deaf and basically mute also don't seem to help the DM try to make you understand things in games. He seems to resort often to the more violent way of making you understand things. Then again I cannot judge that.
It just seems odd to me that someone would try to tackle you for taking something. Or the whole killing you thing.

[skypse]

Bottom line as I see it is that both you and the DM overreacted. Perhaps the best situation would be to redo the scene.

He tells me that I'm either dead and we can discuss that I reroll (although it's a pain in the ass for both of us), or we reset the situation at the cost of 2k XP. I'm trying to avoid both.



It seems your DM has some troubles dealing with you, do you have that feeling too? Not only the CN and Barb are hard factors to deal with, being lame, deaf and basically mute also don't seem to help the DM try to make you understand things in games. He seems to resort often to the more violent way of making you understand things. Then again I cannot judge that.
Well no. However if you are deaf and you try to go near the president the most logical thing for his guards to do is stop you and if you resist tie you down. Even when that happened, he resolved the situation by saying that the guy saw me struggling and came down to solve the problem so everyone was happy. I'm just a pain in the ass for the NPCs who don't know kinecics. :P



It just seems odd to me that someone would try to tackle you for taking something. Or the whole killing you thing.

That dwarf is PC and he thought I am violating his old king's tomb by taking something from in there. Plus, in the story, that king died in the hands of an orc during an ancient battle so he was just playing his RP. (my character doesn't of course know that story. I just really liked that mace :smalltongue: )

[Psyren]

He tells me that I'm either dead and we can discuss that I reroll (although it's a pain in the ass for both of us), or we reset the situation at the cost of 2k XP. I'm trying to avoid both.

I agree, you shouldn't have to take the whole penalty. See if you can negotiate for something smaller, and try the "vision" suggestion I mentioned earlier.

Good luck!

[Mellack]

I would suggest that the head guy you are working for must be evil. If attempting to kill a cat is evil, then actually killing someone is certainly evil by the same standard. The estate shield killed you, thus the owner of you estate is evil.

[Pink]

I would suggest that the head guy you are working for must be evil. If attempting to kill a cat is evil, then actually killing someone is certainly evil by the same standard. The estate shield killed you, thus the owner of you estate is evil.

There is some validity in this. If the creator and owner of the shield was up to the same standards as his shield enforces, the shield would just paralyze or imprison or something.

[Psyren]

There is some validity in this. If the creator and owner of the shield was up to the same standards as his shield enforces, the shield would just paralyze or imprison or something.

It seems the guys in charge are exceptions since they can also cast spells in the field.

[Pink]

It seems the guys in charge are exceptions since they can also cast spells in the field.

More sinister evidence.

[Psyren]

More sinister evidence.

Which means the cat - if he was truly infiltrating their stronghold - is probably good-aligned. Go figure :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

Please elaborate.

Short version: The bonuses are crap. You do NOT get any new Revelations nor do you get any new Rage Powers.
You are better off just taking 7 more levels of Oracle and 3 levels of Barbarian.

Longer version:
You get NO extra rounds of Rage, until Prophet 6 and then only by losing spell slots
You get NO new Rage Powers
You get NO new Revelations (you can spend a feat to get a new power/revelations though, but Prophet levels also do NOT count for qualifying for new powers/revelations)
Most of the "Rage Casting" type powers are counter productive. "You get CON while casting" with a clause of "must be using Moment of Clarity" (or was it Clarity of Mind?), oh, that's right, you don't GET a Rage-CON bonus while using Moment of Clarity.
Being able to cast _very_ limited spells on yourself without having to use Moment of Clarity is weak, as the main point of Raging it dealing damage.
Moment of Clarity is also made completely worthless if/when you have access to Rage-Cycling (granted by the Lame curse maybe?).
Spirit Guide is utter garbage until you reach level 5+, and then it's only useful if you Rage-Cycle while fighting certain types of opponents.

You are pretty much straight up better off with 10 levels of Barbarian and Oracle in some combination, and getting GOOD class features than you are taking this PrC.
There is probably a niche build or two that could actually get SOME use out of Rage Prophet, but for the majority of builds it is a waste of space.

[skypse]

I would suggest that the head guy you are working for must be evil. If attempting to kill a cat is evil, then actually killing someone is certainly evil by the same standard. The estate shield killed you, thus the owner of you estate is evil.


There is some validity in this. If the creator and owner of the shield was up to the same standards as his shield enforces, the shield would just paralyze or imprison or something.


It seems the guys in charge are exceptions since they can also cast spells in the field.


More sinister evidence.


Which means the cat - if he was truly infiltrating their stronghold - is probably good-aligned. Go figure :smalltongue:

Hmmm... LoL!!! Well the spellcasting being done is about healing wounded people, restoring negative levels and sometimes teleporting to some portals that are already set-up by the function to help us reach our destination faster. (And one time from the leader of the organization cause he needed to speak to all of us immediately so he casted something to make his voice really loud)


Short version: The bonuses are crap. You do NOT get any new Revelations nor do you get any new Rage Powers.
You are better off just taking 7 more levels of Oracle and 3 levels of Barbarian.

Longer version:
You get NO extra rounds of Rage, until Prophet 6 and then only by losing spell slots
You get NO new Rage Powers
You get NO new Revelations (you can spend a feat to get a new power/revelations though, but Prophet levels also do NOT count for qualifying for new powers/revelations)
Most of the "Rage Casting" type powers are counter productive. "You get CON while casting" with a clause of "must be using Moment of Clarity" (or was it Clarity of Mind?), oh, that's right, you don't GET a Rage-CON bonus while using Moment of Clarity.
Being able to cast _very_ limited spells on yourself without having to use Moment of Clarity is weak, as the main point of Raging it dealing damage.
Moment of Clarity is also made completely worthless if/when you have access to Rage-Cycling (granted by the Lame curse maybe?).
Spirit Guide is utter garbage until you reach level 5+, and then it's only useful if you Rage-Cycle while fighting certain types of opponents.

You are pretty much straight up better off with 10 levels of Barbarian and Oracle in some combination, and getting GOOD class features than you are taking this PrC.
There is probably a niche build or two that could actually get SOME use out of Rage Prophet, but for the majority of builds it is a waste of space.

If I go with seperate levels of Barbarian I won't be able to cast while raging at all, I will be loosing rounds due to moment of clarity even for a heal or sth and I would still be susceptible to the Lame curse for a long time until I reach oracle lvl 10. However I don't understand why I don't get any new stuff... The Core rulebook states:


A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers, oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse. This does not grant additional abilities.


At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

From what my newbie head understands, this means that while I level up my PrC, those levels stack with Barbie AND Oracle levels in order to calculate my rage powers, rage rounds per day, curse's level etc... Do I have it so much wrong in my head? :smalltongue::smalltongue:

[Yanisa]

From what my newbie head understands, this means that while I level up my PrC, those levels stack with Barbie AND Oracle levels in order to calculate my rage powers, rage rounds per day, curse's level etc... Do I have it so much wrong in my head? :smalltongue::smalltongue:

But you won't get new rage powers or revelations, the keyword being new. Your old ones will scale and grow if they have a 1 per 3 barbarian level clause or a half your oracle level DC.

[skypse]

But you won't get new rage powers or revelations, the keyword being new. Your old ones will scale and grow if they have a 1 per 3 barbarian level clause or a half your oracle level DC.

Yeah but I'm also leveling up my Oracle's revelations, plus the Rage prophet revelation which means that I don't lose the Oracle's spells in any way. Why not being the same logic with rage powers as well???

[Yanisa]

Yeah but I'm also leveling up my Oracle's revelations, plus the Rage prophet revelation which means that I don't lose the Oracle's spells in any way. Why not being the same logic with rage powers as well???

There is a difference between getting a new oracle revelations and determining the effect of an existing oracle revelations. Powers you have chosen grow in power based on your level, but you won't get access to new ones, unless you pick the feats (Extra Revelation or Extra Rage Power). Same goes for rage powers.

Many people will say many oracle revelations and barbarian rage power are far stronger then the class abilities of rage prophet. And I agree, but I am not advising to throw down the class if you feel you can have fun with it, in DnD there are almost always stronger options. Just trying to clarify grarrrg's one of many reasons why he, and many others, feel the prestige class is weak.

[skypse]

There is a difference between getting a new oracle revelations and determining the effect of an existing oracle revelations. Powers you have chosen grow in power based on your level, but you won't get access to new ones, unless you pick the feats (Extra Revelation or Extra Rage Power). Same goes for rage powers.

Many people will say many oracle revelations and barbarian rage power are far stronger then the class abilities of rage prophet. And I agree, but I am not advising to throw down the class if you feel you can have fun with it, in DnD there are almost always stronger options. Just trying to clarify grarrrg's one of many reasons why he, and many others, feel the prestige class is weak.

And I quote again:

Savage Seer

A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers, oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse. This does not grant additional abilities.

This means that in case I have 6 Rage Prophet levels, 4 Barbie levels and 2 Oracle levels, the oracle revelations are being counted as if I had 12 oracle levels. Which means that I can take the benefits of my revelation as if I was 12lvl oracle. Plus, I get the benefits of a 6 lvl RP revelation as normal. The effect of a revelation is the abilities I get from it...

[Yanisa]

And I quote again:


This means that in case I have 6 Rage Prophet levels, 4 Barbie levels and 2 Oracle levels, the oracle revelations are being counted as if I had 12 oracle levels. Which means that I can take the benefits of my revelation as if I was 12lvl oracle. Plus, I get the benefits of a 6 lvl RP revelation as normal. The effect of a revelation is the abilities I get from it...

It's even in your own quote.

A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers, oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse.
This does not grant additional abilities.

This does not grant additional abilities -> This does not grant additional rage powers and oracle revelations.


Also, to make it all worse. Your rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse. How do barbarian levels effect oracle class abilities again? :smallconfused:
But I am going to assume that is bad writing and harsh reading.

[grarrrg]

If I go with seperate levels of Barbarian I won't be able to cast while raging at all, I will be loosing rounds due to moment of clarity even for a heal or sth and I would still be susceptible to the Lame curse for a long time until I reach oracle lvl 10.

Last thing first:
Oracle Curses progress at full level for Oracle (or Rage Prophet) levels, and they still gain +1/2 level for non-Oracle levels. The Fatigue Immunity kicks in at "effective Oracle" level 5.
So with a 1 level dip in Oracle, the latest you could possibly get Fatigue Immunity is level 9 overall.
So once you hit level 9, Rage-Cycling is a go.
If you took 2 levels of Oracle, then you could Rage-Cycle starting at level 8 instead.

Rage Prophet can be entered at level 7 at the earliest, as you need 5 Bab, and the level in Oracle will lose at least 1 point of Bab.
The Raging Healer ability comes at Prophet level 2, which is level 8 overall, which is only 1 level earlier than if you took _only_ 1 level of Oracle.

There is no real "loss of casting while raging" by just mixing Barb/Oracle.

Also note that Moment of Clarity has a "once per Rage" clause. Which means you can only use it _once_ per fight, until you get Rage-Cycling.
But once you have Rage-Cycling, then Moment of Clarity becomes utterly useless.


But I am going to assume that is bad writing and harsh reading.

"FUN" Experiment time everyone!
Go and read the entirety of the Rage Prophet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/rage-prophet) (or cheat and use Ctrl+F).
How many times is "Moment of Clarity" mentioned?
How many times is "Clarity of Mind" mentioned?
Now which of those is an actual thing, and which doesn't exist anywhere ever at all?

As stated, it should most likely be "Rage Prophet stacks with Oracle" and "Rage Prophet Stacks with Barbarian".


A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers, oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse. This does not grant additional abilities.

There are 3 possible things that can happen with "stacking":
Gain New powers
Current powers get stronger
Qualify for better powers

The last sentence outright kills 'New Powers'.
"determining the effect of" means that 'Current get stronger' works fine.
And there is absolutely nothing to indicate that the levels would stack to qualify for new powers (i.e. if a Rage Power says "Barbarian 10" then you sure as heck need 10 actual levels of Barbarian, Prophet does nothing)

[Yanisa]

"FUN" Experiment time everyone!
Go and read the entirety of the Rage Prophet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/rage-prophet) (or cheat and use Ctrl+F).
How many times is "Moment of Clarity" mentioned?
How many times is "Clarity of Mind" mentioned?
Now which of those is an actual thing, and which doesn't exist anywhere ever at all?

Fun fact, every time Clarity of Mind is mentioned, it makes the use of Moment of Clarity less interesting. (If we assume they mean the same ability with different names)

[grarrrg]

Fun fact, every time Clarity of Mind is mentioned, it makes the use of Moment of Clarity less interesting. (If we assume they mean the same ability with different names)

I'm thinking Rage Prophet was written by the same guy behind Prone Shooter....
Same proof-readers too...

[Yanisa]

I'm thinking Rage Prophet was written by the same guy behind Prone Shooter....
Same proof-readers too...

Prone-shooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/prone-shooter-combat)? But there is nothing wrong with prone-shooter. :smallamused:

Fun fact: The author admitted he intended for the feat to have a +2 bonus on ranged attacks while prone, but it's the editors that changed it in the horrible pile of fail that is now in my (friend's) printed copy. Even weirder is that the errata changed it even further from the author's intend.

But that's all way off topic, just wanting to make sure the frustration gets to the right people.

[skypse]

Last thing first:
Oracle Curses progress at full level for Oracle (or Rage Prophet) levels, and they still gain +1/2 level for non-Oracle levels. The Fatigue Immunity kicks in at "effective Oracle" level 5.
So with a 1 level dip in Oracle, the latest you could possibly get Fatigue Immunity is level 9 overall.
So once you hit level 9, Rage-Cycling is a go.
If you took 2 levels of Oracle, then you could Rage-Cycle starting at level 8 instead.

Rage Prophet can be entered at level 7 at the earliest, as you need 5 Bab, and the level in Oracle will lose at least 1 point of Bab.
The Raging Healer ability comes at Prophet level 2, which is level 8 overall, which is only 1 level earlier than if you took _only_ 1 level of Oracle.

There is no real "loss of casting while raging" by just mixing Barb/Oracle.
[/quote]

Nop that's wrong math. In any case I take the fatigue immunity at lvl 7 because:

1)

Each oracle is cursed, but this curse comes with a benefit as well as a hindrance. This choice is made at 1st level, and once made, it cannot be changed. The oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity. An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle. Each oracle must choose one of the following curses.

Which means that we have 2(oracle)+2(for 4 levels of barbarian)+1(Rage Prophet at lvl 7)=5 So the fatigue immunity is aquired. However, new questions are aroused by this math.

This is what I mean:

A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers, oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse. This does not grant additional abilities.
Which effectivelly means that once I become rage prophet at lvl 7 the previous math transform to the following:

2(oracle)+5(RageProphet+Barbarian)=7!!!

Which means that in order to calculate anything related to the oracle class, I am 7lvl oracle and in order to calculate the barbie class I am 5lvl Barbie!!

Now if you go the the Barbie class page, it says that I get new rage powers accordingly to how many Barbie levels I have but since my Barbie levels stack with Rage Prophet levels, I should be able to get Rage powers as if I was 5lvl Barbie (or even higher depending on how many RP levels I have).

Additionally, if you go to the Oracle page you will see that new revelations are being unlocked depending on my Oracle level but since "Savage Seer" uses my Barbie levels as well, I should be able to take revelations for lvl 7 Oracle.

Last but not least, I also take revelations and extra spells from my Rage Prophet mystery while leveling up my Rage Prophet.

So there... I don't get why RP is such a "bad" class since Savage Seer stacks your levels in order not to lose the main points of the character. Don't forget that a Rage Prophet is supposed to be a Barbie with the ability to communicate with the Gods. I don't see why you find it logical that he loses the ability to have a stronger rage while he is leveling up.




Also note that Moment of Clarity has a "once per Rage" clause. Which means you can only use it _once_ per fight, until you get Rage-Cycling.
But once you have Rage-Cycling, then Moment of Clarity becomes utterly useless.
Haven't thought it really thoroughly but I will find something there.



As stated, it should most likely be "Rage Prophet stacks with Oracle" and "Rage Prophet Stacks with Barbarian".

Still it's not like that and it might not be like that because it doesn't want that. There is no PrC that makes you lose the essence of your previous classes after all.




There are 3 possible things that can happen with "stacking":
Gain New powers
Current powers get stronger
Qualify for better powers

The last sentence outright kills 'New Powers'.
"determining the effect of" means that 'Current get stronger' works fine.
And there is absolutely nothing to indicate that the levels would stack to qualify for new powers (i.e. if a Rage Power says "Barbarian 10" then you sure as heck need 10 actual levels of Barbarian, Prophet does nothing)

Yet you leave the last choise free. "Qualify for better powers". Getting a new rage power or new spell from my revelation seems like a really "better power" to me. Why not be able to take them then? :smallbiggrin:

[Yanisa]

Yet you leave the last choise free. "Qualify for better powers". Getting a new rage power or new spell from my revelation seems like a really "better power" to me. Why not be able to take them then? :smallbiggrin:


A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers, oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse. This does not grant additional abilities.
Determining effect of...
Not granting additional abilities...

This point I juts feel like spamming: This does not grant additional abilities. You get stronger existing ones. Not new ones. Your excising ones will get better, you won't get new ones. The Rage Prophet does not grant additional abilities of rage power or revelations.

The whole choosing better powers comes into a play when you take the feat Extra Rage Power or Extra Revelations, this is separate from the clause "This does not grant additional abilities". But the Rage Prophet does not grant additional abilities of rage power or revelations. You need to take feats for it.

If the DM agrees with you, it's a house ruling, but not the rules as intended by the game designers. Also if the DM allows it, go for it, enjoy it and have fun with it. But the Rage Prophet does not grant additional abilities of rage power or revelations. That all I want to make clear.

I don't want to tell you you play the game wrong, but I do want to show what the intend is. The intend is not giving you new rage powers or revelations, but make existing ones stronger so they won't feel useless at higher levels. It is right there in the text. However you play it I don't care, as long as you have fun.

To end, Rage Prophet does not grant additional abilities of rage power or revelations. That all I want to make clear. Play however your DM rules it and have fun with it. But remember it is not what the intend of that ability is.

[Psyren]

Actually I think skypse is onto something. So you get full advancement of existing curse abilities from Rage Prophet, while it does not grant new ones, but you gain the new abilities anyway (at half progression) because you are leveling in a class that is not Oracle.

In other words, Rage Prophet does not grant you the new abilities - Oracle itself does, using the half-progression in non-Oracle classes clause.

[Yanisa]

Actually I think skypse is onto something. So you get full advancement of existing curse abilities from Rage Prophet, while it does not grant new ones, but you gain the new abilities anyway (at half progression) because you are leveling in a class that is not Oracle.

In other words, Rage Prophet does not grant you the new abilities - Oracle itself does, using the half-progression in non-Oracle classes clause.

You still don't get Revelations for half your oracles level. There is a reason why I avoid the term Curse.

[grarrrg]

Nop that's wrong math. In any case I take the fatigue immunity at lvl 7 because:

Which means that we have 2(oracle)+2(for 4 levels of barbarian)+1(Rage Prophet at lvl 7)=5 So the fatigue immunity is aquired. However, new questions are aroused by this math.

My math is perfectly fine.
I was comparing "what's the latest you get Rage Cycle by way of Lame Curse" to "what's the earliest Rage Prophet will let you cast while Raging without having to use Moment of Clarity".

This was a direct response to:

If I go with seperate levels of Barbarian I won't be able to cast while raging at all...I will be loosing rounds due to moment of clarity even for a heal
Rage-Cycling due to Lame Curse kicks in about the same time that Rage Prophet would let you cast while Raging w/o using Moment of Clarity.



A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers, oracle revelations, and his oracle’s curse. This does not grant additional abilities.

No. We are NOT doing a "reading it as written" debate.
It is quite obvious what the intent here was.
Barbarian does NOT stack with Oracle levels for Revelations/Curse.

If you REALLY want to go into an "exactly as written" debate, then the following is what happens.
Assume Oracle 2/Barbarian 4/Prophet 2
Rage Prophet stacks with Barbarian for Rage Powers, Revelations and Curses.
Considered 6th level for Rage Powers. Fine.
Considered 6th level for Revelations, BUT neither Barbarian nor Prophet have any Revelation ability. The ability "as written" does NOT stack ANYTHING with actual Oracle levels. You'd be level 2 for your actual Oracle Revelations, and level 6 for your non-existant Barbarian's Oracle's Revelations.
Your ACTUAL Oracle Curse would be level 5 (2 for Oracle, 3 for Non-Oracle levels). You'd also have a separate pool of 6 levels (barb/prophet) that stack for NOTHING because neither of the classes have an "Oracle's Curse" ability. The only class that does have an "Oracle's Curse" ability is Oracle, but Prophet does NOT stack with Oracle.

Rage Prophet stacks with Barbarian for Rage Powers Effects.
Rage Prophet stacks with Oracle for Revelations and Curse.
Any other interpretation makes little, if any, sense.
If you can manage to sweet talk your DM that's between you and him.

From here on I will flat out ignore any more of your arguments saying that Barbarian levels stack with Oracle.


Now if you go the the Barbie class page, it says that I get new rage powers accordingly to how many Barbie levels I have but since my Barbie levels stack with Rage Prophet levels, I should be able to get Rage powers as if I was 5lvl Barbie (or even higher depending on how many RP levels I have).

Here, lets look at another PrC and see how that's written:
Winter Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/winter-witch)
(emphasis added)

Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining when she learns new hexes, the effect of her hexes and other witch class abilities (including archetype abilities), the abilities of her witch's familiar, and the level at which she can select major hexes or grand hexes.

The Winter Witch VERY explicitly stacks for NEW Hexes, EFFECTS of Hexes and when she can learn Grand Hexes.

Rage Prophet says "stacks to determine effect".
You do NOT get any new Powers/Revelations.
NONE.


There is no PrC that makes you lose the essence of your previous classes after all.

Ummm...yes there are.
The vast majority of them make you lose the "essence" of whatever you were before, or they just didn't care to begin with.

[The Grue]

There is no PrC that makes you lose the essence of your previous classes after all.

What's this Essence class feature you refer do? I did a search of the PFSRD but couldn't find anything related to classes. Is it a third party thing?