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InaVegt
2007-02-03, 11:21 AM
Introduction
As most people would agree with me, epic is quite broken. I'm trying to fix it by reworking epic completely. I also try to fic the issue there is no point taking a class like the monk in epic whose main gimick is the three good saves.

Epic attack bonus
Good: +3/5 levels (+0, +1, +1, +2, +3 and so on)
Average: +1/2 levels (+0, +1 and so on)
Poor: +2/5 levels (+0, +0, +1, +1, +2 and so on)

This is based of the class the epic character is taking, from 21st (character) level on no BAB is gained anymore and instead they gain epic attack bonus (EAB) a good BAB class gains a good EAB

Epic save bonus
Good: +2/5 levels (+0, +0, +1, +1, +2 and so on)
Poor: +1/5 levels (+0, +0, +0, +0, +1 and so on)

This essentially works the same as EAB, remove Base saves at 21st (character) level and higher and replace it with epic save bonuses (ESB) of the same kind.

Ability score increases
Instead of every 4 levels an ability score increase from 21st (character) level on you only gain an ability score increase every 5 levels.

Feats
From 21st (character) level on you only gain a feat every 4 levels, instead of every three. However these feats can be used to take epic feats. The first of these feats you gain at 22nd level.

Hit dice
You gain a flat amount of HP, depending on the hit die you would gain, for the purpose of spells end effects you still gain additional hit dice.

d4: 2 + con mod (you gain 4 hit points per level max and at least 1)
d6: 3 + con mod (you gain 6 hit points per level max and at least 1)
d8: 4 + con mod (you gain 8 hit points per level max and at least 1)
d10: 5 + con mod (you gain 10 hit points per level max and at least 1)
d12: 6 + con mod (you gain 12 hit points per level max and at least 1)

Skills
You gain the same amount of skill points as you used to gain, however class skills cost two points per rank and cross class skills cost 3 skill points per rank.

Class abilities
These obviously depend on class, no abilities are stripped, only added.

Catch
2007-02-03, 01:12 PM
Interesting. Looks good so far, and I'm curious to see your take on epic spellcasting. You know, where all the cheese comes from. :smalltongue:

InaVegt
2007-02-03, 01:40 PM
The epic barbarian
The epic barbarian is the epitome of toughness and raging power

{table="head"]Level|EAB|Epic Fortitude|Epic Reflex|Epic Will|Class abilities
21|+0|+0|+0|+0|Trap sense +7
22|+1|+0|+0|+0|Damage reduction 6/-
23|+1|+1|+0|+0|
24|+2|+1|+0|+0|Trap sense +8, Rage 7/day, Epic rage +1
25|+3|+2|+1|+1|Damage reduction 7/-
26|+3|+2|+1|+1|
27|+4|+2|+1|+1|Trap sense +9
28|+4|+3|+1|+1|Rage 8/day, Damage reduction 8/-
29|+5|+3|+1|+1|
30|+6|+4|+2|+2|Trap sense +10, Epic rage +2
31|+6|+4|+2|+2|Damage reduction 9/-
32|+7|+4|+2|+2|Rage 9/day
33|+7|+5|+2|+2|Trap sense +11
34|+8|+5|+2|+2|Damage reduction 10/-
35|+9|+6|+3|+3|
36|+9|+6|+3|+3|Trap sense +12, rage 10/day, Epic rage +3
37|+10|+6|+3|+3|Damage reduction 11/-
38|+10|+7|+3|+3|
39|+11|+7|+3|+3|Trap sense +13
40|+12|+8|+4|+4|Rage 11/day, Damage reduction 12/-[/table]

Epic rage
At 24th level the epic barbarian gains a +1 bonus to strength and constitution while raging, this stacks with the normal bonuses from raging. at 30th level and every 6 levels thereafter this bonus increases by 1.

Fizban
2007-02-03, 10:09 PM
Umm, that doesn't help. The whole reason everyone gets the same save and BAB bonuses at epic level is that no matter what, if there's any difference, it will eventually become enourmous. Epic is meant to work all the way up to lv100, or even 1,000 theorhetically without widening the gap anymore (not that it does, but that's not the point).

All you've really done is delay the creep that exists pre-epic, not halt it, which is really the main point of the epic rules, as I read them.

cferejohn
2007-02-04, 11:41 AM
Umm, that doesn't help. The whole reason everyone gets the same save and BAB bonuses at epic level is that no matter what, if there's any difference, it will eventually become enourmous. Epic is meant to work all the way up to lv100, or even 1,000 theorhetically without widening the gap anymore (not that it does, but that's not the point).


OK, but this strikes me as kind of academic. I prefer "actually usable to level 40" to "theoretically useful to level 1000". Maybe that's just a fundamental difference of opinion on m my apart about how epic levels should work. At some point, a story has to end.

Amiria
2007-02-04, 03:58 PM
All this doesn't help and is unneccessary. Attack and save boni, ability score increases, feats, hit dice, skills and class abilities work fine in epic levels.

It is Spellcasting which makes Epic broken.

magic8BALL
2007-02-05, 09:36 AM
...why not keep the BAB and save progresion the same as non-epic levels? Dragons don't all of a sudden have their BAB or saves slashed when they reach 20 Hit Dice, neither dose the Tarresque, or anything else with more than 20 HD, or ECL 20+ (angles, devils, dinosaurs, dieties)

Same goes for the hit points.
...and skill points, and ability score increases (although I dont think the MM accounts for monsters increase to abilities due to HD), and feats.

If you just keep everything the same from level 1 to whatever (and I dont see why level 20 isnt a good place to stop anyway, particularly how everyone harps on about capstone abilities for homebrew classes at level 20), you shouldnt have a problem if all the classes are balanced. If the fighter gets about 20 feats, thats balanced with a wizards ability to cast 11th level spells a few times a day, balanced with a rouges ability to deal an extra 12d6 or so on most attacks, balanced with a (insert class)'s ability to (class ability) (a really good effect).

The spell casting...
If you ask me... wizards should get 10th level spells at level 19, 11th level spells at level 21 and so on... problem is... what's more powerful than a wish? If you make it, and you DM approves, your wizard can write it in their spellbook as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway... If you don't like playing epic levels... don't.

chrek
2007-02-05, 12:35 PM
I'm curious why you didn't say "Your base attack and saves continue to progress a the same increments they did before 20th level".

I'm also not sure how Epic anything is broken? The spells that I saw included in the 3.0 Epic level handbook were all unavailable to anyone less than (This is trying to recall from years ago, so forgive me if I'm off a little) 35th level.

Personally I think when your hit dice approach that of minor gods you should begin to approach their power.

InaVegt
2007-02-05, 12:43 PM
Well, Especially epic spellcasting is broken, I had a 25th level caster which had a spell to deal 25d4 negative levels, fortitude half. that's 62.5 negative levels average or 31.25 at a made save, the DC to resist that spell was somewhere in the thirties and she had no chance of faling to cast that spell and could easily cast that spell twice without risking death. Not only that, but this spellcaster could cast all cleric spells not on domains, and three cleric domains, spontaniously, not to mention all warmage spells. Now this combo doesn't blossom till 24th level since the PRC needed for this takes for caster levels, and this was one of the least powergamed combos in the arena (She lost to a melee fighter, of all things)

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen Celestial, Champion of Hell

dead_but_dreaming
2007-02-05, 01:30 PM
Come on now... Epic is supposed to be broken. :smalltongue: That's why it's called Epic see.

magic8BALL
2007-02-05, 08:04 PM
I had a 25th level caster which had a spell to deal 25d4 negative levels, fortitude half. that's 62.5 negative levels average or 31.25 at a made save, the DC to resist that spell was somewhere in the thirties

And what sort of self respecting CR 25 thing could't handle that? The caster would only get one chance, then it's in melee, and next round a full attack.

We have two favourite CR 25 beasts at our table: Tripyrus, a 3 headed ancient read dragon who is a servent of the Githyanki Lich Queen, and the 5 Headed Pyro Taressque. The latter has over 1000hp, 18 attacks a round (5 on a charge) and a carapice... what is it...? 20% chance of an effect being reflected back onto the caster...? The caster would kill itself with that spell!

Two CR 23 beasts = EL 25. Thats two solar angles. Two creatures casting impriosonment at will.

Four CR 21 beasts = EL 25. Thats Four Titans. Each one has a Quickened Chain Lightnigh every round, and greater despel magic at will.

Point is, epic characters face epic threats. Sure, the EAB in the DMG is wrong... fighters lose out big time. The saves are too small too. But casting is... well... should be needed.