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2014-03-19, 11:45 AM
Hey everyone, I was hoping to get some feedback on an adjusted Dread Necromancer spell list. It does add quite a few new spells, but at the same time there a few omissions or shift in levels from the old list, with the hope that it'll keep the class tier 3. Feedback if it's too much in general is great, as is comments on any of the spells being misleveled, or any spells that you think should be obvious that are missing. I figured some people might be interested so I'll probably also update this with some changes we made to the class itself, but the spell list was what I needed feedback on the most. When evaluating the level of the spells, the DM is giving access to spell levels as class level/2 rounded up, like the wizard for example, instead of class level/2 rounded down like a sorcerer.
Spell List
Blue means an existing spell on the list was changed level, becoming a lower level, red means that an existing spell on the list changed level, becoming a higher level, green is a new spell to the list at the same level compared to other classes, purple is a new spell to the list but a higher level compared to other classes, orange is a new spell to the list but at a lower level compared to other classes, and a strikethrough is a removed spell.
0th Level Spells
Chill touch, detect magic, disrupt undead, detect undead, hide from undead, inflict minor wounds.
1st Level Spells
Bane, bestow wounds, cause fear, darkness, death knell, death's call, disguise undead, gentle repose, inflict light wounds, spectral hand, stone bones, summon undead I, undetectable alignment.
2nd Level Spells
Blindness/deafness, bonefiddle, command undead, desecrate, doom, false life, ghoul glyph, ghoul touch, inflict moderate wounds, ray of enfeeblement, ray of weakness, scare, skull watch, stolen breath, summon swarm, summon undead II.
3rd Level Spells
Animate dead, bestow curse, caustic smoke, contagion, crushing despair, death ward, dispel magic, halt undead, inflict serious wounds, Kelgore's grave mist ray of exhaustion, speak with dead, summon undead III, vampiric touch.
4th Level Spells
Burning blood, death ward, Evard's black tentacles, fear, giant vermin, inflict critical wounds, iron bones, phantasmal killer, poison, summon undead IV.
5th Level Spells
Blight, channeled lifetheft, cloudkill, cryptwarden's grasp, door of decay, enervation, fire in the blood, ghoul gauntlet, insect plague, lesser planar binding, magic jar, mass inflict light wounds, night's caress, nightmare, oath of blood, revive undead slay living, summon undead V, touch of Vecna, undeath to death, unhallow, waves of fatigue.
6th Level Spells
Awaken undead, circle of death, create undead, eyebite, geas/quest, greater dispel magic, harm, planar binding, ray of entropy.
7th Level Spells
Acid fog, avasculate, control undead, destruction, evil glare, finger of death, flensing, greater bestow curse, greater harm, mass inflict serious wounds, plague, song of discord, vile death, waves of exhaustion.
8th Level Spells
Avascular mass, blackfire, create greater undead, horrid wilting, mass harm, mass inflict critical wounds, and symbol of death.
9th Level Spells
Detonate, energy drain, imprisoned soul, plague of undeath, power word kill, wail of the banshee.
I should probably put my reasoning up instead of making people read the entire thread, I'll get to all of the changes, but first the removed spells;
Removed Spells:
Bane:Not worth casting, a penalty so minor you'll forget it, and a save stops it. Probably fitting to the list if you wanted to keep it, but it creates clutter.
Bestow Wounds: Not worth casting because of the material component, if the DM will remove it for you, it might be worth keeping for niche uses.
Summon Swarm: Not worth casting, the whole you don't control them and they persist after you stop concentration is lame.
Crushing Despair: Not worth casting, don't cast a save penalty spell that allows a save, if they fail that save you should have used a save or suck against them instead.
Death Ward: Not actually removed, just that there are two copies of this spell on the DN spell list.
Fire in the Blood: Not worth casting.
Insect Plague: Not worth casting.
Lesser Planar Binding: This spell doesn't fit the spell list, and is far too powerful. I'd rather just remove it.
Magic Jar: This spell is fitting to the spell list...but is removed because it's cheesy. If your DM is cheese tolerant or if you promise to play nice, might as well put it back on the list.
Nightmare: Not a combat fear spell (or technically a fear spell at all), and not a spell I think is really worth casting. If you like the flavour of the spell though you can keep it on the list, but it seems like petty evil to me.
Oath of Blood: Not worth casting, and seems more like a beguiler thing (in that making geas, an enchantment, do more).
Slay Living: Pretty much no one is going to agree with me here, but a spell list only need so many save or dies, and I really don't like one sitting right there at 5th level (4th level does have phantasmal killer but the chance of it actually killing someone is much slimmer). So this is a combination of not worth casting (use a save or lose with an effect on a save) and just a personal note of not liking spells like this, feel free to add it back to the spell list if you wish.
Undeath to death: Lots of what I said on Slay Living applies here too, though undead to death has a material component and you have other ways to defeat undead so this is more because it's not worth casting.
Unhallow: More of a DM spell, or at least a spell you wouldn't cast often, and not important enough to the class to leave cluttering up the list, and if they can have unhallow but not desecrate, I see no reason why they can't have desecrate, and then not unhallow.
Circle of Death: I don't like save or dies, particularly before 7th level spells if they only have one save. This spell fits the list though, so feel free to re-add it, though with the material component it should never be cast anyway.
Planar Binding: See lesser planar binding.
Song of Discord: This always seemed out of place to me, a bard spell that causes confusion basically, when nothing else on the spell list does? I believe this spell was basically tacked on because they needed to pad out the list, but with newer books we have better options than to do that.
Note: A fair question here would be if I'm removing spells not worth casting, why did I keep all the inflict spells and greater harm, and basically because the 1st level inflict is worth using to have a 'super-charged' charnel touch at 1st level, and harm is very worth having, and I couldn't justify having them on the list, and not the others.
Changed Features
Charnel Touch (Su): Negative energy flows through a dread necromancer’s body, concentrating in her hands. At will, but no more than once per round, she can make a melee touch attack as a standard action that deals 1d8 per 2 dread necromancer levels negative energy damage to the touched creature. Additionally she adds her Charisma modifier as a profane bonus to the damage (this bonus cannot exceed her dread necromancer level). Creatures that are healed by negative energy (such as most undead) are healed as normal by this ability. A dread necromancer can use the spectral hand spell to deliver this attack from a distance, but only if she doesn't have a touch spell ready to discharge.
Charnel touch is a weapon-like ability (meaning among other things it can critically hit), it is however while certainly an attack (for breaking effects like invisibility), not an 'attack action', in that one cannot make an attack of opportunity or full attack with this ability, using charnel touch is a discrete standard action. Charnel touch also while being a touch attack, and one that can be used through the spectral hand spell, is a supernatural ability so it is not a touch spell, it doesn't leave a charge if the dread necromancer misses (which matters little to them when they can use the ability at will). As should be obvious when charnel touch is a supernatural ability that needs a standard action to use, you can't use this ability and cast a touch spell in the same action (however a touch spell you have cast previously and have yet to be discharged will be discharged if charnel touch hits, as would touching anything as normal).
The damage on charnel touch was made to scale better so that it would be useful at all levels, so long as you continue to take dread necromancer levels. Otherwise bulk of the changes was to clarify how the effect works, with some redundancy in the description to make it as clear as possible.
Negative Energy Burst (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a dread necromancer gains the ability to emit a burst of negative energy from her body as a standard action, targeting all creature within 5 feet of her (excluding herself). This burst deal 1d6 negative energy damage per dread necromancer level, with a successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 dread necromancer level + Charisma modifier) reducing this damage to half. Creatures healed by negative energy (such as most undead) are healed as normal by this ability. A dread necromancer can use this ability three times per day.
The original ability assumed a living dread necromancer using this ability, and described the ability as a burst emitting from her body. The RAI seems obvious that it would exclude the user, so this was made clear. The uses per day increased at lower levels so that the amount of damage this ability does matters a bit more to the dread necromancer, which combined with the increase scaling hopefully make the ability worth considering when deciding to prestige class out of not. Overall the uses at higher levels is down (3 compared to 4), but the ability is also doing d6 damage per level instead of d4.
Advanced Learning (Ex): At 7th level, a dread necromancer can add a new spell to her spell list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation, possibly outside of her field. The spell can be a cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell of the necromancy school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the dread necromancer already knows. Alternatively a sorcerer/wizard spell of the; conjuration school (except those of the calling subschool), the transmutation school (except those of the polymorph subschool), or one outside of the school of necromancy with the fear or death descriptor, can be selected however the spell is treated and learned as one level higher (for example a 7th level sorcerer/wizard conjuration spell without the calling subschool would be learnt and cast as a 8th level spell, and could only be selected if the dread necromancer could cast 8th level spells). Any other sorcerer/wizard spells except for those of the enchantment school or illusion school can be selected as well but these are learnt as two levels higher. Finally a sorcerer/wizard spell of the enchantment school or illusion school (and not with the fear or death descriptor, see above) can still be learned, but at three levels higher. Once a new spell is selected, it is added to that dread necromancer's spell list and can be cast like any other spell she knows. When selecting a necromancy spell if it is both a cleric and a sorcerer/wizard spell, use the lower of the two spell levels to determine what level the spell is for a dread necromancer. If a spell has multiple schools, pick the one that would be most advantageous to you. Prestige classes that advance spells known do not apply to this feature. A dread necromancer gains a new spell at 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level.
Normally a dread necromancer gains advanced learning at 4th level, and then one every 4 levels thereafter, so this ability has been delayed 3 levels, but eventually it catches up and overtakes the old progression. Basically more incentive to take the base class over prestige classing out, and also to stop a weird thing where you want to leave the class and come back to change the spell level that advanced learning applies too. Advanced learning is normally only necromancy spells, but it includes a nerfed version of eclectic learning option in PHB2 for the warmage (which let them pick freely between advanced learning for evocation, or from any school at the cost of a level). The various level differences aren't so much linked to balance but flavour, the dread necromancer was already good at conjuration, and transmutation thematically is the closest school to necromancy, while illusion and enchantment were the furthest. It was also cleared up that it doesn't get advanced by prestige classes that increase spells known (not that many people agreed with that RAW ruling anyway, but worth adding anyway).
Spell List
Blue means an existing spell on the list was changed level, becoming a lower level, red means that an existing spell on the list changed level, becoming a higher level, green is a new spell to the list at the same level compared to other classes, purple is a new spell to the list but a higher level compared to other classes, orange is a new spell to the list but at a lower level compared to other classes, and a strikethrough is a removed spell.
0th Level Spells
Chill touch, detect magic, disrupt undead, detect undead, hide from undead, inflict minor wounds.
1st Level Spells
Bane, bestow wounds, cause fear, darkness, death knell, death's call, disguise undead, gentle repose, inflict light wounds, spectral hand, stone bones, summon undead I, undetectable alignment.
2nd Level Spells
Blindness/deafness, bonefiddle, command undead, desecrate, doom, false life, ghoul glyph, ghoul touch, inflict moderate wounds, ray of enfeeblement, ray of weakness, scare, skull watch, stolen breath, summon swarm, summon undead II.
3rd Level Spells
Animate dead, bestow curse, caustic smoke, contagion, crushing despair, death ward, dispel magic, halt undead, inflict serious wounds, Kelgore's grave mist ray of exhaustion, speak with dead, summon undead III, vampiric touch.
4th Level Spells
Burning blood, death ward, Evard's black tentacles, fear, giant vermin, inflict critical wounds, iron bones, phantasmal killer, poison, summon undead IV.
5th Level Spells
Blight, channeled lifetheft, cloudkill, cryptwarden's grasp, door of decay, enervation, fire in the blood, ghoul gauntlet, insect plague, lesser planar binding, magic jar, mass inflict light wounds, night's caress, nightmare, oath of blood, revive undead slay living, summon undead V, touch of Vecna, undeath to death, unhallow, waves of fatigue.
6th Level Spells
Awaken undead, circle of death, create undead, eyebite, geas/quest, greater dispel magic, harm, planar binding, ray of entropy.
7th Level Spells
Acid fog, avasculate, control undead, destruction, evil glare, finger of death, flensing, greater bestow curse, greater harm, mass inflict serious wounds, plague, song of discord, vile death, waves of exhaustion.
8th Level Spells
Avascular mass, blackfire, create greater undead, horrid wilting, mass harm, mass inflict critical wounds, and symbol of death.
9th Level Spells
Detonate, energy drain, imprisoned soul, plague of undeath, power word kill, wail of the banshee.
I should probably put my reasoning up instead of making people read the entire thread, I'll get to all of the changes, but first the removed spells;
Removed Spells:
Bane:Not worth casting, a penalty so minor you'll forget it, and a save stops it. Probably fitting to the list if you wanted to keep it, but it creates clutter.
Bestow Wounds: Not worth casting because of the material component, if the DM will remove it for you, it might be worth keeping for niche uses.
Summon Swarm: Not worth casting, the whole you don't control them and they persist after you stop concentration is lame.
Crushing Despair: Not worth casting, don't cast a save penalty spell that allows a save, if they fail that save you should have used a save or suck against them instead.
Death Ward: Not actually removed, just that there are two copies of this spell on the DN spell list.
Fire in the Blood: Not worth casting.
Insect Plague: Not worth casting.
Lesser Planar Binding: This spell doesn't fit the spell list, and is far too powerful. I'd rather just remove it.
Magic Jar: This spell is fitting to the spell list...but is removed because it's cheesy. If your DM is cheese tolerant or if you promise to play nice, might as well put it back on the list.
Nightmare: Not a combat fear spell (or technically a fear spell at all), and not a spell I think is really worth casting. If you like the flavour of the spell though you can keep it on the list, but it seems like petty evil to me.
Oath of Blood: Not worth casting, and seems more like a beguiler thing (in that making geas, an enchantment, do more).
Slay Living: Pretty much no one is going to agree with me here, but a spell list only need so many save or dies, and I really don't like one sitting right there at 5th level (4th level does have phantasmal killer but the chance of it actually killing someone is much slimmer). So this is a combination of not worth casting (use a save or lose with an effect on a save) and just a personal note of not liking spells like this, feel free to add it back to the spell list if you wish.
Undeath to death: Lots of what I said on Slay Living applies here too, though undead to death has a material component and you have other ways to defeat undead so this is more because it's not worth casting.
Unhallow: More of a DM spell, or at least a spell you wouldn't cast often, and not important enough to the class to leave cluttering up the list, and if they can have unhallow but not desecrate, I see no reason why they can't have desecrate, and then not unhallow.
Circle of Death: I don't like save or dies, particularly before 7th level spells if they only have one save. This spell fits the list though, so feel free to re-add it, though with the material component it should never be cast anyway.
Planar Binding: See lesser planar binding.
Song of Discord: This always seemed out of place to me, a bard spell that causes confusion basically, when nothing else on the spell list does? I believe this spell was basically tacked on because they needed to pad out the list, but with newer books we have better options than to do that.
Note: A fair question here would be if I'm removing spells not worth casting, why did I keep all the inflict spells and greater harm, and basically because the 1st level inflict is worth using to have a 'super-charged' charnel touch at 1st level, and harm is very worth having, and I couldn't justify having them on the list, and not the others.
Changed Features
Charnel Touch (Su): Negative energy flows through a dread necromancer’s body, concentrating in her hands. At will, but no more than once per round, she can make a melee touch attack as a standard action that deals 1d8 per 2 dread necromancer levels negative energy damage to the touched creature. Additionally she adds her Charisma modifier as a profane bonus to the damage (this bonus cannot exceed her dread necromancer level). Creatures that are healed by negative energy (such as most undead) are healed as normal by this ability. A dread necromancer can use the spectral hand spell to deliver this attack from a distance, but only if she doesn't have a touch spell ready to discharge.
Charnel touch is a weapon-like ability (meaning among other things it can critically hit), it is however while certainly an attack (for breaking effects like invisibility), not an 'attack action', in that one cannot make an attack of opportunity or full attack with this ability, using charnel touch is a discrete standard action. Charnel touch also while being a touch attack, and one that can be used through the spectral hand spell, is a supernatural ability so it is not a touch spell, it doesn't leave a charge if the dread necromancer misses (which matters little to them when they can use the ability at will). As should be obvious when charnel touch is a supernatural ability that needs a standard action to use, you can't use this ability and cast a touch spell in the same action (however a touch spell you have cast previously and have yet to be discharged will be discharged if charnel touch hits, as would touching anything as normal).
The damage on charnel touch was made to scale better so that it would be useful at all levels, so long as you continue to take dread necromancer levels. Otherwise bulk of the changes was to clarify how the effect works, with some redundancy in the description to make it as clear as possible.
Negative Energy Burst (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a dread necromancer gains the ability to emit a burst of negative energy from her body as a standard action, targeting all creature within 5 feet of her (excluding herself). This burst deal 1d6 negative energy damage per dread necromancer level, with a successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 dread necromancer level + Charisma modifier) reducing this damage to half. Creatures healed by negative energy (such as most undead) are healed as normal by this ability. A dread necromancer can use this ability three times per day.
The original ability assumed a living dread necromancer using this ability, and described the ability as a burst emitting from her body. The RAI seems obvious that it would exclude the user, so this was made clear. The uses per day increased at lower levels so that the amount of damage this ability does matters a bit more to the dread necromancer, which combined with the increase scaling hopefully make the ability worth considering when deciding to prestige class out of not. Overall the uses at higher levels is down (3 compared to 4), but the ability is also doing d6 damage per level instead of d4.
Advanced Learning (Ex): At 7th level, a dread necromancer can add a new spell to her spell list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation, possibly outside of her field. The spell can be a cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell of the necromancy school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the dread necromancer already knows. Alternatively a sorcerer/wizard spell of the; conjuration school (except those of the calling subschool), the transmutation school (except those of the polymorph subschool), or one outside of the school of necromancy with the fear or death descriptor, can be selected however the spell is treated and learned as one level higher (for example a 7th level sorcerer/wizard conjuration spell without the calling subschool would be learnt and cast as a 8th level spell, and could only be selected if the dread necromancer could cast 8th level spells). Any other sorcerer/wizard spells except for those of the enchantment school or illusion school can be selected as well but these are learnt as two levels higher. Finally a sorcerer/wizard spell of the enchantment school or illusion school (and not with the fear or death descriptor, see above) can still be learned, but at three levels higher. Once a new spell is selected, it is added to that dread necromancer's spell list and can be cast like any other spell she knows. When selecting a necromancy spell if it is both a cleric and a sorcerer/wizard spell, use the lower of the two spell levels to determine what level the spell is for a dread necromancer. If a spell has multiple schools, pick the one that would be most advantageous to you. Prestige classes that advance spells known do not apply to this feature. A dread necromancer gains a new spell at 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level.
Normally a dread necromancer gains advanced learning at 4th level, and then one every 4 levels thereafter, so this ability has been delayed 3 levels, but eventually it catches up and overtakes the old progression. Basically more incentive to take the base class over prestige classing out, and also to stop a weird thing where you want to leave the class and come back to change the spell level that advanced learning applies too. Advanced learning is normally only necromancy spells, but it includes a nerfed version of eclectic learning option in PHB2 for the warmage (which let them pick freely between advanced learning for evocation, or from any school at the cost of a level). The various level differences aren't so much linked to balance but flavour, the dread necromancer was already good at conjuration, and transmutation thematically is the closest school to necromancy, while illusion and enchantment were the furthest. It was also cleared up that it doesn't get advanced by prestige classes that increase spells known (not that many people agreed with that RAW ruling anyway, but worth adding anyway).